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Verducci, ARod and Jeter

metsguyinmichigan Aug 06 2013 07:18 AM

Verducci couldn't cover a city council meeting without three Jeter references, but his ARod column is a fun read -- if you know what you are in for. Here's one of the fawning Jeter graphs. [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20130805/alex-rodriguez-suspended-biogenesis-legacy/#ixzz2bC5X1sLu "Rodriguez brought his fraudulency to the Yankees next, and with it came the discomfort caused by being teammates with Jeter. People speculated that their friction stemmed from a 2001 Esquire article in which Rodriguez took an unsolicited shot at Jeter, saying, "Jeter's been blessed with talent around him. He never had to lead. He can just go play and have fun. And he hits second -- that's totally different than third or fourth in a lineup. You go into New York, you wanna stop Bernie [Williams] and [Paul] O'Neill. You never say, 'Don't let Derek beat you.' He's never your concern." The article didn't help, especially for a guy like Jeter, who demands cold-blooded loyalty. But associates of Jeter knew what also bothered Jeter was Rodriguez's PED use, a whispered secret among players. It wasn't so much the popular comparison among the AL shortstops -- Jeter, Rodriguez, Miguel Tejada and Nomar Garciaparra -- in which people (including Rodriguez himself) degraded Jeter for his relative lack of power, his price for playing the game clean. It was that Jeter knew the two of them were wired so differently, with Rodriguez choosing the deceit of steroids to play the game." and "Former Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina, in speaking to me for The Yankee Years, cut to the difference between Derek Jeter and Rodriguez: motivation. Jeter, he said, was motivated to win. Rodriguez? What drove him was selfishness. "Alex may end up calling attention to himself, but he's not loud about it," Mussina said. "Alex has this motivation to be the best player in the game. When all is said and done, he wants to be the best player ever. That's his motivation in this. That's fine. That's good. Everybody needs a motivation, whatever it is." Note that the Captain was motivated to win, unless that meant putting the better shortstop at short. So there's some selfishness and vanity on Jeter's part, too. Verducci also calls Texas and Seattle some of the most drug-filled clubhouses, neglecting the fact that the Yankees are right up there. And Texas and Seattle never won any championships with roided-up players. The Yankees sure did. The whole "Yankees as victims" story line is silly. If what Verducci is saying is true, they knew what they were getting.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2013 07:36 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

That most-drug-filled-clubhouses line is juicy. Name some names!

metsguyinmichigan Aug 06 2013 07:47 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Edgy MD wrote: That most-drug-filled-clubhouses line is juicy. Name some names! For the Yankees? Easy. Here are some: Jason Giambi, Mike Stanton, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Chuck Knoblauch, David Justice, Kevin Brown, Rondell White, Jason Grimsley, Randy Velarde, Aaron Boone... That's based on the Mitchell Report and what came out later. Here's Verducci's line: "I asked Rodriguez about steroids, the worst kept secret in baseball. He looked at me with wonder. Steroids? What do they do? Why would players take them? It was chilling to listen to his feigned ignorance. He had played in two especially dirty clubhouses in Seattle and Texas and by 2002 steroids were an open secret in the game, and yet here was Rodriguez asking me questions about steroids." Texas, of course, was discussed heavily in Canseco's book. But I didn't recall the Mariners having a lot of issues.

MFS62 Aug 06 2013 07:52 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Note that the Captain was motivated to win, unless that meant putting the better shortstop at short. So there's some selfishness and vanity on Jeter's part, too. This. Later

Centerfield Aug 06 2013 07:55 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Rodriguez was the reigning Gold Glove winner and ahead by the conventional defensive stats. There was no question slotting him in at short would have benefited the team. Jeter was selfish. Now, it may be human to not want to move positions for a douchebag, narcissistic cheater. I get that. But Jeter is just a guy. It's not fucking Saint Derek.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2013 08:04 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

metsguyinmichigan wrote: That most-drug-filled-clubhouses line is juicy. Name some names! For the Yankees? Easy. Here are some: Jason Giambi, Mike Stanton, Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Chuck Knoblauch, David Justice, Kevin Brown, Rondell White, Jason Grimsley, Randy Velarde, Aaron Boone... That's based on the Mitchell Report and what came out later. Here's Verducci's line: "I asked Rodriguez about steroids, the worst kept secret in baseball. He looked at me with wonder. Steroids? What do they do? Why would players take them? It was chilling to listen to his feigned ignorance. He had played in two especially dirty clubhouses in Seattle and Texas and by 2002 steroids were an open secret in the game, and yet here was Rodriguez asking me questions about steroids." Texas, of course, was discussed heavily in Canseco's book. But I didn't recall the Mariners having a lot of issues. No, I want to hear everything he's got on Texas and Seattle.

metirish Aug 06 2013 08:06 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Ah, good ole Tom Verdouche, what a disgrace he is to the job.

seawolf17 Aug 06 2013 08:20 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Centerfield wrote: But Jeter is just a guy. It's not fucking Saint Derek. Maybe not, but at least you get a gift bag in the morning.

metsguyinmichigan Aug 06 2013 08:54 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

This was a funny line, too: In one of his first seasons with the Yankees, Rodriguez's neediness became so awkward around the team -- he insisted a clubhouse kid be deployed as his personal dresser, laying out his uniform and undergarments each day as would be done for a king -- that one of the Yankees was in near tears when he went to a club official to ask that Rodriguez be traded. Trade the 50-homer guy because he does stupid stuff like ask the clubhouse kids to lay out his clothes? So, it's not all about winning. Where's the captain showing leadership here?

Ceetar Aug 06 2013 08:59 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Centerfield wrote: Rodriguez was the reigning Gold Glove winner and ahead by the conventional defensive stats. There was no question slotting him in at short would have benefited the team. Jeter was selfish. Now, it may be human to not want to move positions for a douchebag, narcissistic cheater. I get that. But Jeter is just a guy. It's not fucking Saint Derek. A-Rod wanted to get out of Texas and go to a winner. He was willing to take a paycut to do so (not that the Union/MLB let him) He made no waves about moving positions, learning a new one and playing it well. Jeter didn't want to move, when A-Rod got his deal he negotiated with the Yankees to be paid more because he felt slighted. He is always insisting that he "doesn't care about Batting Order as long as he bats in the first inning" Yeah, which one of those guys sounds like the one devoted to winning above all else?

Vic Sage Aug 06 2013 09:00 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Centerfield wrote: Rodriguez was the reigning Gold Glove winner and ahead by the conventional defensive stats. There was no question slotting him in at short would have benefited the team. Jeter was selfish. Now, it may be human to not want to move positions for a douchebag, narcissistic cheater. I get that. But Jeter is just a guy. It's not fucking Saint Derek. I absolutely agree; and anything that offers criticism of saint derek i'm all for... But. He is a proud and arrogant athlete (which is redundant). And an all-star SS with his career to that point would naturally feel like the team is best served with him continuing in the position which helped the team win 4 championships. But it was not for him to decide who played SS for the Yanks. It was the manager's call. Saint Joe could've looked at the situation, seen that they were a better team with ARod at SS and asked (then demanded) Derek to move over (either to 3b or 2b). But it wasn't Derek's job to suggest it, volunteer to move, or even be happy about it. It was the Yanks' job to require it. So i have a hard time bashing Derek for THIS one. And i think writers, when they do want to criticize Derek (which is practically never) go to this one point. But its a bullshit point. If anything, it's a critique of Torre at the time, which writers are equally loathe to do.

Ceetar Aug 06 2013 09:08 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Sure, it wasn't Jeter's call to make, but look at what a classy, yet still extremely proud, player does in Carlos Beltran? And Beltran was not the captain of the team and was so much better as a defender in CF (and probably still would've been) than Jeter it's laughable.

Centerfield Aug 06 2013 10:04 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

I think you have this backwards. It was Beltran who remained in CF, and Cameron who volunteered to move.

Ceetar Aug 06 2013 10:12 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Centerfield wrote: I think you have this backwards. It was Beltran who remained in CF, and Cameron who volunteered to move. I was talking about later on when there was a clearly better fielder available. (and not even a star-studded one) in 2004 Beltran was worth .9 rWAR defensively, while Cameron was worth -.6. Playing Beltran in center was the right move. (Also, Cameron on last year of his deal and would be gone anyway)

Centerfield Aug 06 2013 10:22 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Vic Sage wrote: Centerfield wrote: Rodriguez was the reigning Gold Glove winner and ahead by the conventional defensive stats. There was no question slotting him in at short would have benefited the team. Jeter was selfish. Now, it may be human to not want to move positions for a douchebag, narcissistic cheater. I get that. But Jeter is just a guy. It's not fucking Saint Derek. I absolutely agree; and anything that offers criticism of saint derek i'm all for... But. He is a proud and arrogant athlete (which is redundant). And an all-star SS with his career to that point would naturally feel like the team is best served with him continuing in the position which helped the team win 4 championships. But it was not for him to decide who played SS for the Yanks. It was the manager's call. Saint Joe could've looked at the situation, seen that they were a better team with ARod at SS and asked (then demanded) Derek to move over (either to 3b or 2b). But it wasn't Derek's job to suggest it, volunteer to move, or even be happy about it. It was the Yanks' job to require it. So i have a hard time bashing Derek for THIS one. And i think writers, when they do want to criticize Derek (which is practically never) go to this one point. But its a bullshit point. If anything, it's a critique of Torre at the time, which writers are equally loathe to do. Agreed that this is Torre's call. But I also think that Torre knew that his shortstop, despite what is written about him, would have been irate that he had been removed from the position he felt entitled to play until he retired. This could have been career suicide, and Torre, despite what is written about him, knew how to protect himself even at the cost of winning. Jeter has no obligation to suggest or volunteer to move. He is, as you said, a proud and arrogant athlete. So he doesn't deserve to be bashed for it. But neither should he be deified while examples of his very human, and selfish, behavior get swept under the rug. Had Jeter offered to move over for Rodriguez, this would have been cited as just another example of him putting the team first. Instead, he didn't say a word, and A-Rod offered to move. Jeter escapes criticism, ARod is not credited for this. If Jeter really were the Saint that Verducci, Vesey, and countless other writers pretend he is, he would have volunteered to move. When A-Rod struggled in his first season at third, St. Jeter would have insisted that the move be made. And when the Yankee fans got on ARod about his throwing problems, instead of saying "ARod's a grown man, he has to work it out", he would have stood by his teammate and said "Don't boo the Gold Glover who volunteered to move for the good of the team." But he didn't. Because he's a regular guy who didn't want to move positions or support a teammate who happens to be a prick. And that was more important than winning.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2013 10:34 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

He was asked specifically if he would mind if the Yankees acquired Rodriguez, and he specifically said, "No, as long as I'm the shortstop." He was a pre-emptive jerk, and pre-emptively challenged Torre's authority. That Torre backed down from that challenge is a related but different issue. Jeter bet that he had more juice than Torre and he bet right. Derek Jeter is no Mike Cameron.

Vic Sage Aug 06 2013 10:39 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

I was talking about later on when there was a clearly better fielder available. (and not even a star-studded one) You mean the time when Beltran came back from injuries that cost him much of 2009 and 2010, rendering him so immobile he was no longer qualified for CF, and came back to play RF without making a fuss about the fact that the guy who had stepped in to play a GG-caliber CF while he was on the DL was permitted to stay there? You mean THAT situation? And you're comparing that to Jeter, healthy and in his prime, with no significant decline in his game, being unhappy about moving off the position he'd played at an All-star level his whole life, for a free agent who'd never played for his team before? ok. no. ...he's a regular guy who didn't want to move positions or support a teammate who happens to be a prick. And that was more important than winning. Now CF, I'm sure there must be examples of the type of selfless heroic act you describe somewhere in the history of the game (maybe some obvious examples that i'm not remembering at the moment, though the Beltran situation couldn't be less similar). But that he wasn't as extraordinarily heroic as the hacks make him out to be doesn't mean his wasn't exhibiting exactly the same behavior you would expect to see from any other athlete in that situation. And just because WE think the team would've been better off with A-Rod at SS doesn't mean HE believed it but demanded to play there anyway. In all likelihood, he saw himself as the best option at SS for the Yanks to continue winning championships. Didn't Cal Ripken do the same thing? Even when it was long past the time his 1-step range required him to move to 3b, he had his manager (his father, i think) penciling him in at SS anyway. Didn't he play everyday to break the record, even when days off probably would've improved his overall production? But Cal has been deified for the behavior you now condemn Jeter for. Look, i hate Captain Wonderful as much anybody, but lets stop inventing sins for a guy who has enough real ones to his credit.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2013 10:43 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Well, Pete Rose was one of the biggest, self-promoting jerks in the game's history, and he moved three times. Chipper Jones left third base to make way for a better fielder, and then came back. David Wright openly said he'd take any position on the field if the Mets acquired Rodriguez.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2013 10:47 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Ernie Banks was an MVP at 27 and an MVP at 28. At 29, he was fourth in MVP voting and won a Gold Glove. At 31, they asked him to move to first, and he moved.

Centerfield Aug 06 2013 11:01 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

All I'm saying is, Derek Jeter refused to move positions despite the fact that the guy coming in was the reigning Gold Glover at shortstop. Alex Rodriguez offered to move positions, despite the fact that he was the reigning Gold Glover at shortstop. Jeter acted selfishly, Rodriguez acted magnanimously. This incident is swept under the rug because it does not fit the media's premeditated portrayal of the two involved.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 06 2013 11:03 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Edgy MD wrote: He was asked specifically if he would mind if the Yankees acquired Rodriguez, and he specifically said, "No, as long as I'm the shortstop." He was a pre-emptive jerk, and pre-emptively challenged Torre's authority. That Torre backed down from that challenge is a related but different issue. Jeter bet that he had more juice than Torre and he bet right. Derek Jeter is no Mike Cameron. I agree. I also agree that Torre should've had the final say so on that matter. But should've and could've and would've are all different things and I just don't know where the power ultimately resided, as far as that decision was concerned.

dinosaur jesus Aug 06 2013 11:13 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

I think the thing to keep in mind here is that Jeter doesn't know he's a bad shortstop--he probably thought he was just as good a fielder as ARod. And that being the case, obviously it was the new guy who had to change positions. And who won the Gold Glove that year? Derek!

batmagadanleadoff Aug 06 2013 11:24 AM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Verducci couldn't cover a city council meeting without three Jeter references, but his ARod column is a fun read -- if you know what you are in for. Here's one of the fawning Jeter graphs.... "Former Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina, in speaking to me for The Yankee Years, cut to the difference between Derek Jeter and Rodriguez: motivation. Jeter, he said, was motivated to win. Rodriguez? What drove him was selfishness. "Alex may end up calling attention to himself, but he's not loud about it," Mussina said. "Alex has this motivation to be the best player in the game. When all is said and done, he wants to be the best player ever. That's his motivation in this. That's fine. That's good. Everybody needs a motivation, whatever it is." This makes no sense. I'll take the guy who is motivated to be the best player in all of baseball and then has a few seasons where he actually is the best player in all of baseball, over anybody else. A-Rod simply dwarfed Derek Jeter in their primes -- no mean feat in that Jeter is a first ballot HOF'er himself. As measured by WAR, A-Rod would typically double Jeter's seasonal WAR output. Double. Baseball isn't synchronized swimming. There's very little teamwork in the game despite what Willie Randolph wants you to think, and virtually none on the offensive side. The best player in baseball is .. well ... the best player in baseball. So if Verducci wants to suggest that Jeter compensated for not ever being the best player in baseball, and that Jeter made up the 25+HR deficit to A-Rod (25 conservatively) with a coupla extra sac bunts, I can only laugh.

Vic Sage Aug 06 2013 12:39 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

dinosaur jesus wrote: I think the thing to keep in mind here is that Jeter doesn't know he's a bad shortstop--he probably thought he was just as good a fielder as ARod. And that being the case, obviously it was the new guy who had to change positions. And who won the Gold Glove that year? Derek! This was kind of my point; he no doubt thought he was acting in the best interest of the team. I don't see it as an act of "selfishness", at least not knowingly. And A-Rod wasn't being "magnanimous" ... he was a free-agent coming to NY on a mega-deal, so just wanted to cause as little backlash as possible. He wasn't going to be making position demands to displace the Yankee captain upon showing up. It was as much in his own interest as Jeter's actions seem.

Ceetar Aug 06 2013 12:46 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Vic Sage wrote: dinosaur jesus wrote: I think the thing to keep in mind here is that Jeter doesn't know he's a bad shortstop--he probably thought he was just as good a fielder as ARod. And that being the case, obviously it was the new guy who had to change positions. And who won the Gold Glove that year? Derek! This was kind of my point; he no doubt thought he was acting in the best interest of the team. I don't see it as an act of "selfishness", at least not knowingly. And A-Rod wasn't being "magnanimous" ... he was a free-agent coming to NY on a mega-deal, so just wanted to cause as little backlash as possible. He wasn't going to be making position demands to displace the Yankee captain upon showing up. It was as much in his own interest as Jeter's actions seem. Except he was traded there, not a free agent. They sought HIM not the other way around.

Centerfield Aug 06 2013 01:12 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

I think we are going to just have to agree to disagree. I hear what you are saying. And you're right, there are shades of gray to consider here and it's not just a black and white issue. But I think that there are a range of reactions that Jeter could have had. Starting with magnanimous and fading into selfishness, he could have: 1. Said: "I am happy to welcome a gold glover like A-Rod. We just traded our second baseman. I'll be working on learning that position this winter." 2. Said: "I am happy to welcome A-Rod. Who plays what position is not my decision to make, but I'll play anywhere where it helps the team." (and mean it). 3. "I am happy to welcome A-Rod. Who plays what position is not my decision to make, but I'll play anywhere where it helps the team." (but not really mean it). 4. Say nothing publicly, but behind the scenes insist on playing shortstop (which is what Jeter did). 5. Publicly insist on playing shortstop. 6. Publicly insist on playing shortstop and criticize A-Rod in the press. Mike Cameron did choice 1 when the Mets were courting Beltran. David Wright said #2, as did Jose Reyes for Kaz Matsui (interestingly, Kaz Matsui would take the same position a year later when everyone realized it was a mistake). Todd Hundley was probably #3 when he was fumbling around in LF. Baseball writers would have you believe that St. Jeter would always takes the highest of high roads. He did not, he took a choice somewhere in the middle of selfish and magnanimous. I would argue that it was closer to selfish, but opinions may vary. Either way, he did not put the good of his team above all else. Again, I'm not saying he should, or that he wasn't justified in taking this position, it's just the deification of Jeter is nauseating. In truth, no one can ever be that perfect. Jeter is a terrific ballplayer, and by all accounts, a fantastic guy. No need to exaggerate him into being something he isn't.

seawolf17 Aug 06 2013 01:15 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

PREACH ON, CF

SteveJRogers Aug 06 2013 01:16 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Vic Sage wrote: Didn't Cal Ripken do the same thing? Even when it was long past the time his 1-step range required him to move to 3b, he had his manager (his father, i think) penciling him in at SS anyway. Didn't he play everyday to break the record, even when days off probably would've improved his overall production? But Cal has been deified for the behavior you now condemn Jeter for. For accuracy's sake, Cal Sr. only managed Cal Jr. all of 1987, the first 6 games of 1988 and one game as an interim skipper in 1985. In the midst of Junior's prime seasons. Ripken would clash with manager Davey Johnson about moving over to third when Johnson took over in 1996. Ripken played all but six games at short in 1996 but by 1997 the move was permanent as Ripken played his final 3 games at shortstop that year. And the next season, with Ray Miller as the O's skipper, is when the streak finally ended, though Ripken was at the hot corner the entire way, on the final day of the season.

Ceetar Aug 06 2013 01:22 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Not that Ripken doesn't deserve some flak too, but he did eventually move. Jeter's a freaking laughing stock by anyone that understands baseball/fielding and yet still there's no inkling he's planning on moving. His injury in the playoffs was not going to make his range better and it was the perfect opportunity to broach the subject for this season, but of course that didn't happen.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2013 02:16 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Centerfield wrote: 4. Say nothing publicly, but behind the scenes insist on playing shortstop (which is what Jeter did). I remember him publicly insisting on playing shortstop, but perhaps that was more secondhand. Centerfield wrote: Jeter is a terrific ballplayer, and by all accounts, a fantastic guy. I've seen at least a few few accounts that diverge on this point.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2013 02:42 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Interesting, back on the team and healthy(-ish) for the Chicago series, he's probably still their best bet at shortstop tonight.

Ashie62 Aug 06 2013 02:52 PM Re: Verducci, ARod and Jeter

Ceetar wrote: Not that Ripken doesn't deserve some flak too, but he did eventually move. Jeter's a freaking laughing stock by anyone that understands baseball/fielding and yet still there's no inkling he's planning on moving. His injury in the playoffs was not going to make his range better and it was the perfect opportunity to broach the subject for this season, but of course that didn't happen. I wouldn't call Jeter a laughingstock...Pain in the ass? Yes