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Return of Jose?

metsguyinmichigan Sep 04 2013 09:03 AM

[url]http://metsmerizedonline.com/2013/08/featured-post-is-there-a-chance-for-jose-reyes-reunion.html Interesting speculation in this Mets-Merized post about a potential Reyes return. He makes some interesting points: -- Sandy isn't pleased with Tejada -- There are no prospects other than Tejada -- The Jays big-spending didn't help them and they might be willing to shed salary. -- The Mets have money to spend. He speculates the Jays might be willing to cover 30 percents or more of the salary. It's fun to speculate. But... -- Jose is still way-overpaid, even with the Jays eating some. -- He's in, what, the second year of a seven-year deal? That's a big commitment -- He's on the wrong side of 30 and, as we know, prone to breakdowns. Hell, he's almost old enough and broken down enough to be a Yankee. I like Jose as much as the next Crane Pooler. But I don't know if he's as good of a fit any more.

seawolf17 Sep 04 2013 09:12 AM Re: Return of Jose?

The post there offers up Murphy and Montero as bait. Jose's got $86 million guaranteed over four years (including the buyout for the fifth year, or it's an extra $18 million for 2018) -- if Toronto eats half of it, I'd do that. You'd get Jose -- who will "only" be 35 in 2018 -- at $10-12 million a year. And you can move Tejada to second if you really believe in him, or go out and get one somewhere else. Murphy turns 29 on or around Opening Day 2014, so it's not like he's so young himself.

Edgy MD Sep 04 2013 09:18 AM Re: Return of Jose?

He'll be in the third year. For the Mets, that'll be four years and $82 million, plus a $22 million option in 2018 with a $4 million buyout, so effectively, it's four years and $86 million. How much would you want to carve off of that to make it worth it? Get it down to $55 million? $60 million? It's so hard to read the market these days. Worth noting is that since returning on June 26, Reyes hasn't been stealing bases. He 's only stolen eight in that time and bagged only one in August. On one hand, big whoop, as stolen bases are an over-rated weapon. On the other, it could be an indication of how healthy his legs are. The early years of Doubleday/Wilpon/Cashen were characterized by canceling debts with the team's fans by bringing back Kingman, Staub, and Seaver. While none of these moves made much of difference competitively, there was value perhaps in re-establishing faith. There may be some mindset with regards to that nebulous value as the team makes it's next push. Maybe.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 04 2013 09:39 AM Re: Return of Jose?

The Blue Jays would have to eat a LOT of money to make it worthwhile. A WHOLE lot of the money. I've moved on from Jose. The Mets do need a new shortstop, but I'd rather that it not be their old shortstop. With his salary, he'll just become one of those guys for whom we'll be looking forward to the season when he "comes off the books."

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 04 2013 10:16 AM Re: Return of Jose?

I think JoseJose's time came and went, but if the Jays are committed to swallowing a lot of $$ we can talk. A WHOLE lot of the money. And then some.

Ceetar Sep 04 2013 10:34 AM Re: Return of Jose?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I think JoseJose's time came and went, but if the Jays are committed to swallowing a lot of $$ we can talk. A WHOLE lot of the money. And then some. It's really that spike at the end that concerns me most.

Edgy MD Sep 04 2013 10:52 AM Re: Return of Jose?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I think JoseJose's time came and went, but if the Jays are committed to swallowing a lot of $$ we can talk. A WHOLE lot of the money. And then some. For argument's sake, though, let's hang a number on it.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 04 2013 11:08 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Okay. I'd say that if the Mets can get him with an annual average salary of $11 million or less, then it's worth considering. Get it down to $8 million and I'm all in.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 04 2013 11:10 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Yeah, maybe 50 cents on the dollar. 4 years/41 makes sense to me. DO IT SANDY

Lefty Specialist Sep 04 2013 11:13 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Jays will never eat enough money to get it down to $8 mil a year. They got it down to $12 mil a year I'd do it. I think Jose would be energized being back in NY. He didn't sign up for Toronto, and I bet he hates that Astroturf. There's no shortstop in the system, so if they offered, I'd listen.

Edgy MD Sep 04 2013 11:26 AM Re: Return of Jose?

I love the conversation reported from the end of last year where Terry's all "They're probably gonna trade you," and he's all, "No way, Papi!"

Frayed Knot Sep 04 2013 12:07 PM Re: Return of Jose?

The biggest thing with that contract is how back-loaded it is: 2014 = $16M, 2015 = $22M, 2016 = $22M, 2017 = $22M, 2018 = $22M/club option ($4M buyout) after getting in the range of $10-$12 for these past two seasons. Then there's a bunch of (relatively minor) bonuses for each Gold Glove, All-Star selection. Silver Slugger, LCS MVP, MVP, WS MVP That's too much for a 30+ SS He, of course, did NOT get a no-trade clause in the deal and won't be 10+5 for another three years.

Lefty Specialist Sep 04 2013 12:18 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Yeah, the Marlins backloaded it, got his cheapest season, then dumped the contract on the Jays. Exactly what they did with Carlos Delgado.

smg58 Sep 04 2013 05:27 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Well they ate a sizeable chunk of Delgado's contract. If they didn't do the same with Reyes, the Jays are in a hell of a bind.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 04 2013 06:09 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Possible solution: offer the Jays a sliding reward scale, based on the size of the money swallow. -- Eat $10 million, get Cecchini and a jumbo hot-dog -- Eat $20 million, get Murphy and/or Duda and several Olive Garden gift cards -- Eat $30 million, get Flores or Montero and several Cheesecake Factory gift cards -- Eat $40 million, get Flores, Montero, and a mystery prize that rhymes with "Tbarros Lor Wife"

metsguyinmichigan Sep 04 2013 08:09 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Possible solution: offer the Jays a sliding reward scale, based on the size of the money swallow. -- Eat $10 million, get Cecchini and a jumbo hot-dog -- Eat $20 million, get Murphy and/or Duda and several Olive Garden gift cards -- Eat $30 million, get Flores or Montero and several Cheesecake Factory gift cards -- Eat $40 million, get Flores, Montero, and a mystery prize that rhymes with "Tbarros Lor Wife" Dude. They're in Canada. You gotta mix in some Dunkin' Donuts if you want their attention.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 04 2013 09:50 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Okay, scratch the restaurant offers, and add Timmy Ho's coffee-in-a-box/back-bacon poundage accordingly.

Ceetar Sep 05 2013 06:12 AM Re: Return of Jose?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Okay, scratch the restaurant offers, and add Timmy Ho's coffee-in-a-box/back-bacon poundage accordingly. Perhaps some of those little maple sugar candies?

Edgy MD Sep 05 2013 06:39 AM Re: Return of Jose?

I was just upstairs combing what's left of my hair into a slick old-guy pompadour when I got the notion that soon Jose, like Shawon Dunston and Robin Yount before him, is going to start gravitating to the outfield. His play at short was never as refined as some others', certainly a product in part of his increased size. Now entering the second half of his career, age, injuries, and increased bulk will likely rob him of much of his agility, even if the bulk of his footspeed is retained. He perhaps will display more consistent power, good enough to retain starting jobs should he become a full-time outie, but I fear he'll have few All-Star games going forward.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 05 2013 07:06 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Cal Ripken moved to third base as he aged, didn't he? That's another possible path for Jose, depending on who his teammates are, and, I suppose, what his power numbers are.

Ceetar Sep 05 2013 07:18 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Cal Ripken moved to third base as he aged, didn't he? That's another possible path for Jose, depending on who his teammates are, and, I suppose, what his power numbers are. He's got a strong arm too. Feel like he could do this. But not in a 'return to the Mets' type way of course.

Edgy MD Sep 05 2013 07:18 AM Re: Return of Jose?

As did Pay-Rod, but I think what's left of Reyes' fast-guy skills will translate more to the outfield, and even moreso as he ages. Ripken, of course, began his career at third.

Vic Sage Sep 05 2013 08:14 AM Re: Return of Jose? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Sep 05 2013 08:23 AM

i think even if his range diminishes over the next few years, he is still sure-handed and strong-armed enough, with enough SS experience and savvy, to keep manning the position through the remaining 4 guaranteed years on the contract. Particularly in light of the offense he brings to carry that diminished defense. We would still be an overall + at the position, relative to the league. Unless he continues to get injured, in which case it doesn't really matter where they position him, cuz he won't be there. If he was a free agent tom'w, would you sign a 30-year old .290/100r/50sb/15hr hitting SS coming off an injured season to a 4-year deal, and if so, at what price in the current market? Assuming diminishing defensive range, fewer SBs but more HRs, would such a FA be worth it, with no other options on the major or minor-league levels? And then add in the fan value of bringing him back -- what is that worth? how many more chochkees sold and tickets, hot dogs, parking spaces and cable-tv viewers and radio listeners? They can make some projections on stuff like that these days, so that goes into the calculation, too. So then you add the market price for his projected level of production at SS, the organizational need, the position's scarcity within and without organization, and home-town marketing (and some other factors i probably overlooked) to determine his "value". Equaling what? None of us has any idea, but throwing out random salaries and players in trade is entertaining enough, i suppose. So i'll thow out one. $10m@4yrs in salary (or the average of what he's gotten over the first few years of the deal), with Murphy and Montero in trade. Murphy is competent but not an impact player, and Flores can play 2b (and they need to find a position for him, if they believe in him), and while giving up Montero is a risk, we have plenty of other pitching prospects, and we'd have to give them at least 1 level A prospect or major leaguer for them to eat this much salary (they'd probably want another too -- Ike, Duda or Tejada come to mind). I still don't think they'd do it, since it requires eating over 50% of his remaining contract, but i think that's his worth, all things considered.

Edgy MD Sep 05 2013 08:20 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Yeah, most would probably take that. But eating 55% of the deal? Hard to imagine Toronto doing that.

Vic Sage Sep 05 2013 08:22 AM Re: Return of Jose?

agreed. which is why the deal probably won't and shouldn't happen.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 05 2013 08:33 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Of course, Toronto could send less money and get a lesser crop of players back. It's a delicate balance, finding that mid-point that would make both teams happy. If the Mets would have to pay $10 million per year to Jose, but lose Montero, could they get him for $12 million per year (saving the Jays $8 million overall) and send a lesser prospect instead? It's mostly a rhetorical question. I don't think any of us have enough knowledge of the Blue Jays' budget, the Mets' evaluation of their prospects, and the Blue Jays' evaluation of the Mets' prospects, to really know what kind of a deal might be doable.

G-Fafif Sep 05 2013 08:37 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Last year: Despised Marlin traitor. This year: Beloved shortstop in exile.

Vic Sage Sep 05 2013 08:41 AM Re: Return of Jose?

next year: star-crossed disabled veteran

Benjamin Grimm Sep 05 2013 08:58 AM Re: Return of Jose?

G-Fafif wrote: This year: Beloved shortstop in exile. I'm not there at all. I'm pretty much indifferent to Jose. That final first inning bunt seems to have left remnants in my craw. Whatever a "craw" is.

Vic Sage Sep 05 2013 09:22 AM Re: Return of Jose?

craw - a pouch in many birds and some lower animals that resembles a stomach for storage and preliminary maceration of food Idioms: stick in one's craw, to cause considerable or abiding resentment; rankle. [1350–1400; Middle English crawe, related to crop*] [related to Middle High German krage, Middle Dutch cr?ghe, neck, Icelandic kragi ,collar] * Crop: A pouch-like enlargement of a bird's gullet in which food is partially digested or stored for regurgitation to nestlings, and a similar enlargement in the digestive tract of annelids and insects.

Edgy MD Sep 05 2013 09:23 AM Re: Return of Jose?

And, of course, it ain't really the bunt, but the I-got-mine kiss-off that followed.

Vic Sage Sep 05 2013 09:28 AM Re: Return of Jose?

yeah, the ending exposed Reyes for what he is; i have no nostalgia about him. I'll take him if the price is right, but that's purely a baseball decision. And it's easy to say, since it is so unlikely to happen.

metsguyinmichigan Sep 05 2013 09:55 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Vic Sage wrote: yeah, the ending exposed Reyes for what he is; i have no nostalgia about him. I'll take him if the price is right, but that's purely a baseball decision. And it's easy to say, since it is so unlikely to happen. I didn't like that, but I don't think it negates the years of positive memories about him.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 05 2013 10:08 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Edgy MD wrote: And, of course, it ain't really the bunt, but the I-got-mine kiss-off that followed. Yes, definitely.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 05 2013 10:12 AM Re: Return of Jose?

This only proves what any cynic kinda believes anyway: that a player's personal stats matter more to him than the team's fortunes-- especially when it's a batting title versus a standings wise meaningless last game of another lost season.

G-Fafif Sep 05 2013 10:13 AM Re: Return of Jose?

I'd like to hear more about this...claw? CRAW! [youtube:1sxnylsp]ftgAG3Vnif8[/youtube:1sxnylsp]

TheOldMole Sep 06 2013 01:12 AM Re: Return of Jose?

He wasn't the first player to take himself out of a game to preserve a batting title. In fact, at one time - 1941 - the big news was a player NOT doing that, when it was assumed he would.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 06 2013 05:55 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Jose's way of doing it was particularly crass, especially since many fans were there to see what they figured was probably his last game as a Met. And before they knew it, he was gone. And then he said he did it for the fans. It would have been different if he had gone 3 for 3 and then left the game in the seventh inning.

Edgy MD Sep 06 2013 06:10 AM Re: Return of Jose?

TheOldMole wrote: He wasn't the first player to take himself out of a game to preserve a batting title. In fact, at one time - 1941 - the big news was a player NOT doing that, when it was assumed he would. That wasn't a batting title, but a .400 average on the line. I can't speak to exactly how common it was then vs. now. I'm not sure it should matter when judging how much we like it.

Fman99 Sep 06 2013 06:24 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Jose's way of doing it was particularly crass, especially since many fans were there to see what they figured was probably his last game as a Met. And before they knew it, he was gone. And then he said he did it for the fans. I had forgotten all about this. I'm willing to bet the majority of Mets fans who weren't in the park that day have as well.

themetfairy Sep 06 2013 06:38 AM Re: Return of Jose?

I was there. It was like he couldn't wait to get off the field. It would have been different if he had stayed on base, took his position in the bottom of the first and then had Terry take him out of the game. But he zipped out of there so fast that a lot of people didn't have a chance to say goodbye.

seawolf17 Sep 06 2013 07:15 AM Re: Return of Jose?

So a baseball player is a jagoff, which they all are, and we're going to hold it against him over nine seasons of awesome? Eff that. It's just a game, people. He's a fuckload better than Rubetin Turnjada ever will be. Bring him back, lead him off, pay him, and let's win a fucking championship.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 06 2013 07:26 AM Re: Return of Jose?

I'm not saying that the bunt means we shouldn't welcome him back. I just brought it up as a rebuttal to an earlier use of the word "beloved" to describe him.

Edgy MD Sep 06 2013 07:27 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Hold it against him over other stuff? No. Hold it against him? Sure. They don't all indifferently walk off the field in the first inning of their final game to preserve a statistical anomaly in order to better market himself to other teams. They just don't. Some do. Others don't. And it's a worthwhile distinction which are which.

Ceetar Sep 06 2013 07:33 AM Re: Return of Jose?

he's beloved to me still. I have absolutely zero issue with what ended up being his last game. I'd take him back in a heartbeat if it worked within the Mets budget.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 06 2013 07:37 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Here's what we were saying on that final day in 2011: Reyes Appreciation Day IGT, 9/28

metsguyinmichigan Sep 06 2013 10:21 AM Re: Return of Jose?

And on the last day, Terry filed this lineup: Reyes, ss Tejada, 2b Harris, lf Wright, 3b Evans, 1b Baxter, rf Paulino, c Pridie, cf Batista, sp Yikes, how many of these guys are still in the majors today? Whatever happened to Evans?

Edgy MD Sep 06 2013 10:30 AM Re: Return of Jose?

That was, to date, Evans' last appearance in the big leagues. Hit 19 homers for Mobile in the Southern League this year. That's AA, the same level from which the Mets eagerly called him up back in 2008.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 06 2013 10:32 AM Re: Return of Jose?

who the hell is Harris?

Ceetar Sep 06 2013 10:33 AM Re: Return of Jose?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: who the hell is Harris? 2011's Eric Young Jr

seawolf17 Sep 06 2013 10:33 AM Re: Return of Jose?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 06 2013 10:34 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Ceets we know you hate Junior, but he's not Willie Harris ... yet.

Ceetar Sep 06 2013 10:39 AM Re: Return of Jose?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ceets we know you hate Junior, but he's not Willie Harris ... yet. Eh ,they have almost exactly the same OPS both for their careers and for the Mets. Both are seemingly considered good defenders where really neither are. (although EY's FLD numbers have crossed into positive recently)

metsguyinmichigan Sep 06 2013 10:45 AM Re: Return of Jose?

I think he was the guy who, when with the Nationals, was killing us by making amazing, diving catches. But was just so-so with us.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 06 2013 10:47 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Here's what we were saying on that final day in 2011: Reyes Appreciation Day IGT, 9/28 Check out this thread, too. http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/1680 ... 6800.shtml

G-Fafif Sep 06 2013 11:12 AM Re: Return of Jose?

seawolf17 wrote: Harris used his Veteran Influence to remind Reyes to step out of the dugout a good 10 minutes after the game was over and greet his public. A good-sized cadre (how many in a cadre?) had gathered nearby waiting for one more peek and Willie/Jose rewarded them. He gave a very nice salute and received a very nice cheer. Witnessing it from behind the first base seats where I stood chatting with some other hopeless dead-enders took some of the sting out of his early exit in the there and then. (The bunt was fine; the vamoose was dopey.) I was at the final home game of 1998, part of the five-game losing streak that sealed that season's Wild Cardless fate. As Piazza batted late, I was thinking this could be his last at-bat as a Met, as he wasn't signed for next year and word and logic had it that he'd want to test the free agent market. Then I thought, "Nah, he's coming back." And he did. I believed something similar when Reyes waved from the dugout. "They'll figure something out." They didn't. I wasn't surprised in a granular sense, but the big-picture decision still floors me. Anyway, still beloved by me. One poorly choreographed exit < nine wonderful seasons. Doesn't mean I'm running to pick up all of what's left of that contract, but after four months of riding the Quintnailla Express to nowhere (it doesn't make good time despite bypassing the seemingly abandoned Rubenville station), I'd be happy to have him back. Or Jose Vizcaino at this point.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 06 2013 11:34 AM Re: Return of Jose?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/16800/f1_t16800.shtml Wow.

Lefty Specialist Sep 06 2013 11:50 AM Re: Return of Jose?

You know, 80% of Jose Reyes is three times better than Tejada/Quintanilla. If he's available, I would welcome him back with open arms, even if he scooted on the last day in 2011. We've seen how he can electrify an offense. We've also seen what the lack of an OBP/Speed guy at the top of the order can do. I guess I wasn't as put out as some when he came out of the game the last day. Had he re-upped, people would have forgotten all about it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 06 2013 12:34 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/16800/f1_t16800.shtml Wow. What a clusterfuck that thread was. No wonder attgig ain't here anymore.

Edgy MD Sep 06 2013 12:37 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Sorry.

Ashie62 Sep 06 2013 04:02 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Maybe we can trade Toronto another pitcher....

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 06 2013 05:53 PM Re: Return of Jose?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/16800/f1_t16800.shtml Wow. What a clusterfuck that thread was. No wonder attgig ain't here anymore. Good Lord, this.

Ashie62 Sep 06 2013 06:30 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Ryan Braun is calling Brewer ticket holders individually to apologize, really...

TheOldMole Sep 07 2013 08:35 PM Re: Return of Jose?

I'd welcome Jose back.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 07 2013 09:19 PM Re: Return of Jose?

http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/16800/f1_t16800.shtml Wow. What a clusterfuck that thread was. No wonder attgig ain't here anymore. Good Lord, this. Who wantsa rev this one up all over again? It's two years later and Ryan Braun is about the most disgraced player in baseball. Not that this has anything to do with Jose's honor, of course. But does anyone here really think that on the last day of the season, a 25-games-out team's 78th win matters more to a player than his own chance to win his league's batting title? Ya think that players risk their health, their careers and their personal reputations by shooting god know what up their asses all so that their team might win a few more games in a season? Ya think that if he could, Tom Seaver would trade his career for Jim McAndrew's in exchange for another WS ring or two? I'd bet that Seaver wouldn't even wanna trade his career for Jerry Koosman's. "First you make the money, then you get the rings".

Vic Sage Sep 09 2013 11:19 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Well, I think it's nice that Willets came back and we patched things up. Red-head loving, liberal Metfans have to stick together. But i still agree with Edgy, and stand by every word i wrote, and am proud I convinced LWFS of my position, too. In fact, I think I was eloquent as fuck. If not my finest CPF moment, it was among my favorites. Clusterfuck? I disagree. A lengthy debate about the nature of honor (or "honor", as some would have it) is a thread worth keeping and remembering.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 09 2013 11:25 AM Re: Return of Jose?

Vic Sage wrote: Well, I think it's nice that Willets came back and we patched things up. Red-head loving, liberal Metfans have to stick together. But i still agree with Edgy, and stand by every word i wrote, and am proud I convinced LWFS of my position, too. In fact, I think I was eloquent as fuck. If not my finest CPF moment, it was among my favorites. Clusterfuck? I disagree. A lengthy debate about the nature of honor (or "honor", as some would have it) is a thread worth keeping and remembering. I agreed with everything you wrote about honor. I just think that you might as well still believe in Santa Claus to expect players to truly feel that way in that context and circumstance.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 09 2013 12:52 PM Re: Return of Jose?

Oh, it was a nice debate, some sliver of it. It wasn't a shitshow until we went around the mulberry bush for the eleventeenth time, and people started getting all huffy and making with the "I'm leaving"/"well, fine, asshole, just go." Mmm... Honor.