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Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 01 2013 01:41 PM

A Mets free-agent shoppers guide


Players who could be of value to the Mets in a few weeks: Shin-Soo Choo, Stephen Drew, Bronson Arroyo.

When putting together a list of the priorities for the Mets in this offseason's free-agent market, you must be realistic.

To think that the team is going to land anyone with a nine-figure salary is a longshot (no matter what Sandy Alderson says), so cross Robinson Cano and Jacoby Ellsbury off any wish-lists.

Logic would also dictate that pitchers for whom the market might provide a four-year commitment comparable to the one Edwin Jackson got last winter (four years, $52 million) are not what this front office is looking for, so scratch off Matt Garza and Ricky Nolasco (and probably Ubaldo Jimenez, Tim Lincecum and Ervin Santana). We also left out a few pitchers with strong preferences for specific teams or markets-- A.J. Burnett (Pirates), Dan Haren (West Coast), Tim Hudson (Braves) and Hiroki Kuroda (Yankees/Japan).

But there are players who would be good fits for this team, which most likely will be shopping for multiple outfielders, a shortstop, both starting pitchers and relievers, and maybe a backup catcher.

What is below is a list arranged alphabetically, rather than by rank, of 20 targets that we deemed realistic based on educated guesses and available information. When the World Series concludes, these players will be on the market for the Mets to pursue.

Feel free to share your thoughts on priorities and targets in the comments.

Jose Abreu, 1B: The first name on our list is a wild card, a Cuban defector who hit .360 in six games in the World Baseball Classic. The comparables are to the good version of Ryan Howard, which would be a great fit for the Mets. But the team already has a first base glut and the cost for an unknown might be too high.

Bronson Arroyo, SP: This will probably be a name you'll hear a lot, partly because Arroyo was so willing to acknowledge interest in the Mets when approached by the media a few weeks ago.

Arroyo has made at least 30 starts in each of the last nine seasons, and his WAR has been over 2 in five of the last seven seasons (3.6 and 2.9 the last two) pitching in ballparks that are hitter-friendly.

It would be interesting to see what he could do in 16 to 17 starts in Citi Field.

Carlos Beltran, OF: We feel obligated to list him (we'll get plenty of questions if we don't). Beltran would be an ideal Shane Victorino-like signing if the Mets tried to mimic what the Red Sox did last season, as he's shown he has something left (.282 batting average, and an average of 28 homers and 3-WAR per season in two years with the Cardinals). But if we ranked everyone we wrote about, we'd rate him last among realistic chances of signing with the Mets.

Marlon Byrd, OF: Byrd liked being a Met, the Mets liked having him, and he fits a team need, so a second tour doesn't seem out of the question. But a caution for anyone thinking Byrd will replicate his .291 batting average -- his ground-ball batting average in 2013 was .321, nearly 100 points higher than he hit on grounders from 2009 to 2012.

Top Free Agent OF
If Money Was No Object
1. Jacoby Ellsbury
2. Shin-Soo Choo
3. Curtis Granderson
4. Marlon Byrd
5. Nelson Cruz


John Buck, C:
While we're talking second tours, Buck could be the veteran backup the Mets are looking for. The expectations and need would ideally not be high so long as Travis d'Arnaud stays healthy. If not Buck, the Mets targets could include Tigers backup Brayan Pena (.297 BA, 713 OPS in 229 at-bats) and Rangers backup Geovany Soto (.245 batting average, nine homers in 163 at-bats), or defensive specialist Jose Molina of the Rays.

Chris Capuano, SP: There are six lefties of a very similar ilk that are free agents -- Capuano, Bruce Chen Joe Saunders, Paul Maholm, Jason Vargas and Barry Zito. Each is well-experienced and has been above-average at some point in their career. In each case, their best days are probably behind them, but they've still got something left. If the Mets decide they want a veteran lefty starter as their innings eater, they could go for any one of these six, with little difference between them.

Joba Chamberlain, Yankees, RP: Chamberlain averaged nearly 95 mph on his fastball this season but will be a low-end purchase because his slider has not been close to what it once was for the last two seasons. His awful September (he allowed runs in four of six appearances in one stretch) won't help his value either. But the Mets could provide him a chance at a fresh start.

Shin-Soo Choo, OF: The Mets have already been linked to Choo and it's no secret they covet his high on-base percentage and modest power (though his poor history against lefties makes it hard to think of him as a franchise-savior).

If the price is comparable to Hunter Pence's 5-year, $90 million, he'll be elsewhere in 2014.

For an in-depth evaluation on Choo, click here.

Nelson Cruz, OF: Since the Mets had no problem taking on a PED-suspended player in Byrd, they'd probably be willing to go after Cruz, who has averaged 27 homers, 12 steals and 125 games the last five seasons.

The downside is the homer-deflation factor given the move from Rangers Ballpark to Citi Field and that Cruz is a below-average defender.

Stephen Drew, SS:
It's our educated guess that Drew tops the Mets list among available shortstops in free agency.

He's above-average offensively (.777 OPS with the Red Sox) whose 10 percent walk rate over the last three seasons will suit the Mets and is an average (maybe a hair below average) defender and baserunner. He's above-average offensively (.777 OPS with the Red Sox) whose 10 percent walk rate over the last three seasons will suit the Mets and is an average (maybe a hair below average) defender and baserunner.

What will make him affordable and also a bit risky is his injury history (he missed about half the season in 2011 and 2012).

Yunel Escobar, SS: Escobar's best seasons at shortstop rate slightly better than Drew's -- primarily because of his defense. The question marks with him are in issues regarding his lack of hustle and his wearing eye black with text that included a homophobic slur. Escobar has an option for $5 million in each of the next two years, so the Rays may not let him reach the free-agent market.

Jason Frasor, RP: Frasor is a veteran righty who has ties to Mets special assistant to the GM J.P. Ricciardi as someone who pitched for the Blue Jays from 2004 to 2011. His appeal is reliability in that he's never rated below replacement level and averaged 58 games per season the last 10 years in a middle-relief/setup role. He also has shown the ability to (usually) get out both righties and lefties at a high rate.

Curtis Granderson, OF:If Choo turns out to be too expensive, Granderson represents the next-best reasonable option.

He would bring power and speed, having averaged 36 homers and 16 steals with the Yankees from 2009 to 2011, though how much of the former would translate to Citi Field makes for a good debate.

One thing working against the Mets would be if Granderson felt the pull to return home to Chicago, particularly if Joe Girardi becomes the Cubs manager.

LaTroy Hawkins, RP: Bringing Hawkins back would make a lot of sense. He's cost-effective, he's reliable, and he has experience as a closer if the need arose. If he chose to retire or sign elsewhere, another free-agent of similar status who would be cost-comparable would be someone like a Kyle Farnsworth.

J.P Howell, RP:
Probably will be the costliest of the lefty relievers, because his history includes four good years in that role, and he's good enough against right-handed hitters that he's not strictly a one-batter reliever like a Scott Rice, Tim Byrdak, or Pedro Feliciano. Howell closed the regular season very well for the Dodgers, allowing three runs (and one of 14 inherited runners to score) in his last 20 innings.

Josh Johnson, SP: Johnson ended the season with a forearm strain, and the scare in signing him would be that at some point he'd suffer another injury in line with those that have plagued his career.

Top Free Agent SP
If Money Was No Object
1. Matt Garza
2. Ricky Nolasco
3. Ubaldo Jimenez
4. Hiroki Kuroda
5. Tim Lincecum

But the upside is a pitcher who can put up Matt Harvey-like numbers when healthy (6.6 WAR in 2009, 7.2 WAR in 2010).

If the Mets are going to pursue creative solutions over spending large sums, Johnson is the kind of pitcher who will be on their list.

Boone Logan, Yankees RP: Logan is more of a one-batter left-handed option than Howell, as he allowed four homers to the 74 right-handed hitters he faced in 2013. His history against lefties is pretty good (an above-average rate of misses on 35 percent of swings against him over the last three seasons), though not untouchable (10 homers, .404 slugging percentage allowed in that span).

Nate McLouth, OF: McLouth was a 1.7 WAR outfielder with 12 homers and 30 steals in 146 games for the Orioles (his most games played in a season since 2008). He's an average defender in left field whose upside is in his hustle and high energy (a la Eric Young with more power). He would be an interesting option if the Mets traded Daniel Murphy and moved Young to second base.

David Murphy, OF: Murphy is an under-the-radar buy-low option who averaged a .346 on-base percentage, 14 homers and 2-WAR in 128 games from 2008 to 2012 before a major performance decline in 2013.

One of Murphy's issues was the opposite of Byrd's -- a decline of nearly 100 points from 2011/2012 to this season on his success hitting ground balls, which trimmed about 20 points from his batting average. The team that goes after him will be one thinking those numbers can get back to what they were, which would make him a reasonable investment.

Jhonny Peralta, SS: Peralta may come discounted because of his recent 50-game PED suspension.
He has the best offensive numbers of anyone available at shortstop: his average season from 2005 to 2013 is a .332 on-base percentage with 17 home runs.

The knock on his game is his defense, but his numbers are better than you think. He's rated almost exactly average on defense there over the last three seasons.

Others to keep in mind: Starting pitchers Jason Hammel (dealt with injuries in 2013, but effective when pitching for Orioles) and Phil Hughes (who should be better just for no longer pitching in Yankee Stadium), righty relievers Tim Stauffer and Jamey Wright (alternatives in the Jason Frasor mold), lefty specialists Scott Downs of the Braves and Javier Lopez of the Giants, outfielder Mike Morse (a defensive liability who has averaged 19 homers a season since the start of 2010), and infielder Nick Punto (2.1 WAR in 2013, could share shortstop with Ruben Tejada).



http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/mets/p ... pers-guide

Edgy MD
Oct 01 2013 02:03 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I just don't know what's to get excited about there. Murphy, Peralta, and Abreu seem like targets the Mets will look at closely. Cruz sure fits the profile of the team buying low on ex-PED-cons, but I agree about the translation rate of power from Texas to Queens.

I bet we hear some about Wladimir Balentien too.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 01 2013 02:23 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Having David Murphy and Daniel Murphy on the same team will be a Schaefer-tallying nightmare.

The Mets have a "glut" at first base? I hardly think so. They have a lot of guys who can play there, but that doesn't mean that it's not a weakness that needs to be addressed.

The article above is interesting, but it makes my head spin. Most of the names are unfamiliar to me, so I don't know how I feel about the players coming to the Mets. But Byrd will command more money than the Mets should give him. Buck is a been-there-done-that, I'd say. A return by Beltran would be nice. (Vanis takee!) I expect that Hawkins will be back.

It's our educated guess that Drew tops the Mets list among available shortstops in free agency.


How old is he?

Edgy MD
Oct 01 2013 02:29 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I think we can be reasonably assured that the team will look hard (probably harder) at the trade route for acquiring offensive help.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 01 2013 02:38 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Yeah that's my thought, although I suppose it's worth a shot at Abreu.

Vic Sage
Oct 01 2013 02:38 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

We need a power-hitting RFer, a SS with at least decent offensive production, and reliable production at 1B.
I'll take Abreu at 1b, Perahlta at SS, and with that kind of offense from the SS, then take a flyer on a bounce-back from Murphy in RF.

Ceetar
Oct 01 2013 02:46 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Vic Sage wrote:
We need a power-hitting RFer, a SS with at least decent offensive production, and reliable production at 1B.
I'll take Abreu at 1b, Perahlta at SS, and with that kind of offense from the SS, then take a flyer on a bounce-back from Murphy in RF.


need a left fielder too, and probably a center fielder.

Edgy MD
Oct 01 2013 02:49 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

The desire to solve all problems at once is a dangerous trap. With a healthy organization of hundreds of players, some tend to solve themselves. If you get the right guy in one position, sometimes, just stabilizing another is a big step. And more talent is freed up there.

Boston's got a crappy thirdbaseman and their rotation isn't deep. Detroit's defense is a laugh and Andy Dirks ain't gonna carry ya. But you go on, solve what you can, and keep playing the games.

Vic Sage
Oct 01 2013 02:53 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

if we get power from 1b, SS and rf, we can live with Young's 40+ SBs in LF and some combo of Legares, DenDekker, Nieuhenheis and/or whatever spare parts we pick up for CF. You can't (or at least shouldn't) sign an entirely new FA outfield.

Edgy MD
Oct 01 2013 02:57 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

There you go.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 01 2013 02:58 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I'm with Vic.

I also think starting pitching is going to be important if the Mets are really planning to try to play in October. They have two guys in their rotation who aren't innings-limited. (Gee and Niese.) Even if Harvey pitches in 2014, I'm sure they'll be cautious with him. Wheeler will be limited. Syndergaard and Montero too, if they join the Mets during the summer. And Mejia as well, I guess. That's why I think that guys like Harang and Matsuzaka should be in the mix, and hopefully they'll acquire one or two veteran pitchers significantly better than those two.

Vic Sage
Oct 01 2013 03:07 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

i don't think we should waste our time on FA pitching... with the organizational depth we have at that position, it'd be a misallocation of resources, and pitchers are hard to count on anyway, especially relievers. They could take a flyer on a cheap arm with some Spring Training invitees, like we did with Dickey, on the hope of catching lightning in a bottle, or at least an arm that can take some pressure off the kids. But i'm fine with a rotation of Niese, Harvey, Gee, Wheeler and Mejia, with guys like Torres, Montero, Syndegaard in reserve unless beaten out in camp by a vet in the spring. And the last FA reliever we signed should be the last FA reliever we sign, as far as i'm concerned. And backup catchers, retreads and other 30-somethings looking for long-term big money deals shouldn't be high on our list either.

I tell you what, if we're anywhere in the vicinity of being competitive next July, and we are in dire need of another SP at the time, i'm sure we have the pitching prospects to put together a deal to get one. I just don't think we should waste any time with it now.

Ashie62
Oct 01 2013 04:50 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Edgy MD wrote:
I just don't know what's to get excited about there. Murphy, Peralta, and Abreu seem like targets the Mets will look at closely. Cruz sure fits the profile of the team buying low on ex-PED-cons, but I agree about the translation rate of power from Texas to Queens.

I bet we hear some about Wladimir Balentien too.


You do know he is RIP?

metirish
Oct 01 2013 04:53 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Shin-Soo Choo, OF: The Mets have already been linked to Choo and it's no secret they covet his high on-base percentage and modest power (though his poor history against lefties makes it hard to think of him as a franchise-savior).

If the price is comparable to Hunter Pence's 5-year, $90 million, he'll be elsewhere in 2014.


hardly a ringing endorsement for a guy I keep hearing the Mets must sign......I confess to knowing not much about him but with all the talk I didn't expect to read that...course it's one opinion.

seawolf17
Oct 01 2013 06:15 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Ashie62 wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
I just don't know what's to get excited about there. Murphy, Peralta, and Abreu seem like targets the Mets will look at closely. Cruz sure fits the profile of the team buying low on ex-PED-cons, but I agree about the translation rate of power from Texas to Queens.

I bet we hear some about Wladimir Balentien too.


You do know he is RIP?

Wladimir Balentien just broke the Japanese single-season home run record. He most definitely not dead.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Oct 01 2013 08:09 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Choo's better-- or, rather, less bad-- in a corner than in center. Which, considering what we've got in hand, seems a great fit.

Ashie62
Oct 01 2013 09:26 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

seawolf17 wrote:
Ashie62 wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
I just don't know what's to get excited about there. Murphy, Peralta, and Abreu seem like targets the Mets will look at closely. Cruz sure fits the profile of the team buying low on ex-PED-cons, but I agree about the translation rate of power from Texas to Queens.

I bet we hear some about Wladimir Balentien too.


You do know he is RIP?

Wladimir Balentien just broke the Japanese single-season home run record. He most definitely not dead.


Conflating with Greg Halman..

Ceetar
Oct 02 2013 07:03 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Well sure, we can't solve all problems/positions via free agency. But there are trades, there are trusting other guys. If we're gonna roll with Lagares and his complete lack of offense (but hey, he could improve too) and sign only one slugging OF, makes a lot more sense to me to put Duda in LF where the defense becomes less important based on having a good defensive CF instead of statuesque guys like Ankiel. Duda's a + offensive player and the Mets need that.

Of course, if you're gonna have to rely on guys already in the system having bounce-back or break-out type years, Ike Davis has more talent and ability than den Dekker, Lagares, Nieuwenhuis, Brown, Young Jr, etc. Might as well try to find the OF and roll with 1B then.

More than one way to skin a cat of course, and a lot depends on what the, financial or otherwise, price is for the pieces available elsewhere.

Choo has seemingly been floated as 'perfect' for the Mets for years now. He had a really good year this year, seems like buying high, and it seems like one of those pet FA like Orlando Hudson or Jason Marquis that people romanticize as a good fit for years leading up to the time when the actual organization has to decide who/what is a good fit.

Lefty Specialist
Oct 02 2013 07:33 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

2014 should be a 'buy-low' year. I wouldn't get tied up in anything long-term; so that leaves out guys like Choo and Cruz. If there's a need later in the year, there are arms in the minors that can be used as chips.

The one exception to this would be Abreu. I think he's a must to sign for first. Then you can clear out the clutter. If he can be had at all reasonably, they should do it. Unfortunately, there looks to be a lot of competition.

Peralta intrigues me. If he can be had on a 1 or 2 year deal, I'd do it. Same for (David) Murphy.

Mets Guy in Michigan
Oct 02 2013 07:44 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Vic Sage wrote:
i don't think we should waste our time on FA pitching... with the organizational depth we have at that position, it'd be a misallocation of resources, and pitchers are hard to count on anyway, especially relievers. They could take a flyer on a cheap arm with some Spring Training invitees, like we did with Dickey, on the hope of catching lightning in a bottle, or at least an arm that can take some pressure off the kids. But i'm fine with a rotation of Niese, Harvey, Gee, Wheeler and Mejia, with guys like Torres, Montero, Syndegaard in reserve unless beaten out in camp by a vet in the spring. And the last FA reliever we signed should be the last FA reliever we sign, as far as i'm concerned. And backup catchers, retreads and other 30-somethings looking for long-term big money deals shouldn't be high on our list either.

I tell you what, if we're anywhere in the vicinity of being competitive next July, and we are in dire need of another SP at the time, i'm sure we have the pitching prospects to put together a deal to get one. I just don't think we should waste any time with it now.



I kind of agree with Vic. This team lost a lot of games because it couldn't score more than two runs. We need some serious offense.

Edgy MD
Oct 02 2013 07:58 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I don't think Lagares has a complete lack of offense.

I also don't think Abreu is a must-anything. None of us have seen the guy, nor know how to translate Cuban numbers to MLB. He had one of the greatest seasons in Cuban baseball history, but he also:

1) has the Red Sox fawning over him,
2) carries a lot of weight.
3) missed a piece of the season with a bursitis condition, which can be chronic.
4) plays first and has nowhere to go from there.

I would have the Mets take a long, close look at him, but if they pass on him, life goes on.

Frayed Knot
Oct 02 2013 09:15 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Yeah, reports on Abreu, though often promising, are hardly universal in their praise.
Plus, all Cuban players have a higher than normal 'unknown' factor.

MFS62
Oct 02 2013 09:15 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

He'll be trying our for lots of clubs to prove he is over his surgeries.
But if he is healthy, I'd like to see the Mets take a shot at Grady Sizemore on an incentive laden (games or ABs) 1 year $1-2 million contract with a club option for $5 second year.
It would be a low (financial) risk, potentially high reward option.

Later

Frayed Knot
Oct 02 2013 09:25 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

MFS62 wrote:
He'll be trying our for lots of clubs to prove he is over his surgeries.
But if he is healthy, I'd like to see the Mets take a shot at Grady Sizemore on an incentive laden (games or ABs) 1 year $1-2 million contract with a club option for $5 second year.
It would be a low (financial) risk, potentially high reward option.

Later


You've been suggesting that incentive strategy for Sizemore for at least three years now.
But at this point, seeing as how his last professional game was in 2011 and his last full/decent season was in 2008, I'm going to assume that he's retired until I hear otherwise.

MFS62
Oct 02 2013 09:45 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Frayed Knot wrote:

You've been suggesting that incentive strategy for Sizemore for at least three years now.
But at this point, seeing as how his last professional game was in 2011 and his last full/decent season was in 2008, I'm going to assume that he's retired until I hear otherwise.

Actually, since he was declared a free agent after the 2011 season. So its more like two years. If I did it before that, I could have been accused of tampering. (j/k)
But your point is well taken.

Later

smg58
Oct 03 2013 07:11 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I would put our biggest needs at the corner outfield spots and shortstop.

Our trade resources consist of Wilmer Flores, either Duda or Davis, and either Murphy or Young. The "great surplus of pitching talent" looks like a lot less of a surplus without Harvey. But Montero pitched more innings at AAA than Wheeler and was better, and Mejia looked very good when he pitched up here. We (and 29 other teams) could use more depth, but I see no reason to make a major priority out of a starting pitcher.

If I'm going to pay a premium for an outfielder, I want somebody I'm confident will be a major asset in 2015 as well as 2014. That rules out Beltran and Byrd (and Raul Ibanez, for that matter). Choo's bat is superb against righties, but the defensive metrics and extreme platoon splits are legit concerns for the price he will likely get. Granderson might have over-adjusted his swing to hit home runs in Dipshit Park I mean Yankee Stadium. The one-dimensional approach won't play here, but he could still be useful if he can re-adjust and the price is not exorbitant. Talking about Nelson Cruz as though switching ballparks will have the biggest negative effect on his numbers is a bit silly. It's one thing to take a guy like Byrd off the scrap heap because he was once a good player and you're really freaking desperate, but it's another to make a serious commitment in money and years to a guy who deserves (for character reasons) to be on that same scrap heap, based on numbers that are most likely an illusion. I'm for avoiding Jhonny Peralta like the plague for similar reasons. Ellsbury is undoubtedly the safest bet, but is he worth 9 digits?

The good news is that there are a whole bunch of options, and somebody's price is bound to fall.

I wonder if there's a buy-low opportunity on Josh Hamilton. He sucked this year and has a bloated, back-loaded contract, but if there's a possibility that the Angels would eat some money on the back end of it and not ask for much in return, I'm willing to talk.

And if his knee checks out OK, don't overlook Corey Hart. His numbers were as good as those for most of the guys being talked about. The only question is his health, but if I can get him for 2 and 15 I'll be as patient as necessary with him this coming season.

On one hand, Stephen Drew is OK but not great. On the other hand, OK but not great would be a major upgrade.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 03 2013 08:12 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I'm with a lot of that.

Vic Sage
Oct 03 2013 08:15 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 03 2013 08:17 AM

i would agree with most of this analysis too, but i'm confused by one point.

you suggest we avoid Cruz and Peralta for "character reasons", but then petition for us to take a shot at Josh Hamilton. Is there anybody less reliable than a hardcore drug addict? He's taking one day at a time (and good for him), but we should pick up the tab for his next few years? Yeah, no thanks.

And describing Byrd as "once a good player"... well, ok. i guess it depends on what you mean by "good". This career year he's having is not indicative of his career overall (OPS+102 for a corner OFer), even before he became an old, broken down PED user on the scrap heap. And what about HIS "character issues"? It was ok for Mets to overlook them because we were desperate? But not for a .280/20hr SS, when that is (arguably) the single greatest need for the franchise?

Edgy MD
Oct 03 2013 08:15 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I don't know about avoiding guys with a PED history outright. You don't want to pay good money for them, but I think that's been part of Omar's strategy. Treat them like neglected assets that you can bid low on.

Reports are that he'd like to get guys on 1-3 year, and ex(?)-dopers with something to prove are one way to get good players on such modest commitments.

OE: something like what he said.

smg58
Oct 03 2013 12:56 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I do think Hamilton is a better bet than Cruz to perform at career-norm levels next season.

I don't have a problem with giving guys second chances. I'm against giving multi-year deals to guys for whom expecting performance to stay at recent levels is unrealistic, even if you take character completely out of the equation. Melky Cabrera got a nice deal from the Jays, and while you could arguably give him a pass because of injuries, his numbers this year went back to what they were before 2011. I'd bet on Cruz getting a similar deal and being similarly unimpressive. Peralta will probably perform at the .700 OPS level he played at in 2009 and 2010. Somebody is likely to pay him for more than that, and I hope it isn't us.

Vic Sage
Oct 03 2013 01:25 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I do think Hamilton is a better bet than Cruz to perform at career-norm levels next season.


I don't know why you think so, but Hamilton's performance level NOW is still better than Cruz's average season (.260/25-30hr), but i'm not interested in either of them. They're 32 with drugs and injuries in their recent past. But that wasn't the point i was making anyway.

I don't have a problem with giving guys second chances. I'm against giving multi-year deals to guys for whom expecting performance to stay at recent levels is unrealistic, even if you take character completely out of the equation.


Again, i agree, but you're the one who brought character INTO the equation, which was my point. And Hamilton is as likely to be an example of this problem as Cruz, Peralta, Cabrera, Byrd or anybody else, as he's a junkie owed $104M over the next 4 years, from age 33-36. Even at half that price, i'd avoid him. and not for character reasons. Just as i'd avoid the Pujols contract, even with his solid reputation for character.

Peralta will probably perform at the .700 OPS level he played at in 2009 and 2010. Somebody is likely to pay him for more than that, and I hope it isn't us.


Or he might play like the .775-.805 OPS player he was for the 2 seasons before that (2007-08), or the .885 player he was in 2005, 2 years prior to THAT. No way to know, i guess, but, if you don't have to overpay to find out, I'd sure be interested (character issues aside, of course). Because if Tejada or even Drew are your best alternatives, then Peralta starts looking like a pretty good risk to take.

Frayed Knot
Oct 03 2013 01:30 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I'm not sure that Peralta's days as a SS aren't dwindling.
I realize that now he's only being shifted off SS because the Tigers traded for the non-singing Iglesias during his suspension, but it wasn't like he was ever gold glove to start with and at 32 next spring he's not going to be getting any better.
So I wouldn't be against looking at him but strictly on a shorter term basis. Stephen Drew should be in that category as well.

Ceetar
Oct 03 2013 01:31 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Tejada had a crappy start to the season, but his numbers aren't really abysmal.

Vic Sage
Oct 03 2013 01:34 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

yes, abysmal would be an improvement.

Vic Sage
Oct 03 2013 01:36 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Frayed Knot wrote:
I'm not sure that Peralta's days as a SS aren't dwindling.
I realize that now he's only being shifted off SS because the Tigers traded for the non-singing Iglesias during his suspension, but it wasn't like he was ever gold glove to start with and at 32 next spring he's not going to be getting any better.
So I wouldn't be against looking at him but strictly on a shorter term basis. Stephen Drew should be in that category as well.


i'm not really shilling for Peralta. I just don't want to rule him out until i know what the market is for him... and certainly not for character issues.

Ashie62
Oct 03 2013 02:13 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

There was an ESPN piece the other day suggesting the Mets would build like the Red Sox..That would mean signing a gaggle of say 2-5 million dollar type guys..

There is not one available free agent I would pursue and offer big boy dollars.

My favorite pound for pound is Nate McClouth...he brings speed and a good bat to the table and should come reasonable...

Frayed Knot
Oct 04 2013 07:25 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

FREE AGENTS AIN'T FREE - PART II

This thread, the Cano discussion, and other more general topics, got me to thinking about how often those long-term deals often commanded by the top free agents work out.
So I set some parameters and came up with a list of:
- current deals only
- minimum of five years in length
- position players only (may get around to pitchers later)

Some of the deals below (most of the ones for the younger players) are not true FA contracts as they were signed during, or in some cases before, the arbitration years.
Some players (** marked) have already been traded away by the signing team since the beginning of the contract.
The ages are as of July 1st 2014.
The per/year avg of the remaining years might vary slightly with incentive clauses and buy-outs, but are accurate as to the specific salary for the years 2014 and beyond.


PLAYERORIGINAL CONTRACTAGE 2014YEARS Rem.AVG $ / YR
JOEY VOTTO10 Years / $225301022.5
EVAN LONGORIA6 Years / $10028914.4
ALBERT PUJOLS10 Years / $24034826.5
BUSTER POSEY9 Years / $16727819.25
ELVIS ANDRUS8 Years / $12025815
DUSTIN PEDROIA8 Years / $11030813.75
PRINCE FIELDER9 Years / $21430724
RYAN BRAUN8 Years / $4530717.85
TROY TULOWITSKI10 Years / $157.7529716.57
DAVID WRIGHT8 Years / $13831715.875
MATT KEMP8 Years / $16029621.33
RYAN ZIMMERMAN6 Years / $10029614.67
STARLIN CASTRO7 Years / $602469.17
ANTHONY RIZZO7 Years / $412466.71
JOE MAUER8 Years / $18431523
ADRIAN GONZALEZ **7 Years / $15432521.2
HUNTER PENCE5 Years / $9031518
ADAM JONES6 Years / $88.528515
YADIER MOLINA5 Years / $7531514.8
JOSH HAMILTON5 Years / $12533424.5
ALEX RODRIGUEZ10 Years / $27538421.5
JAYSON WERTH7 Years / $12635420.75
CARL CRAWFORD **7 Years / $14232420.63
JOSE REYES **6 Years / $10631420.5
ANDRE ETHIER5 Years / $8532416.88
CARLOS GONZALEZ7 Years / $8028415.88
BJ UPTON5 Years / $75.2529415.7
MIGUEL MONTERO5 Years / $6030412.5
BRANDON PHILLIPS6 Years / $72.533411.75
IAN KINSLER5 Years / $7532411.25
ANDREW McCUTCHEN6 Years / $51.527411.06
RYAN HOWARD5 Years / $12534325
MARK TEIXEIRA8 Years / $18034322.5
MATT HOLLIDAY7 Years / $12034317
JOSE BAUTISTA5 Years / $6533314
JAY BRUCE6 Years / $5127312.5
MIGUEL CABRERA8 Years / $152.331222
ADRIAN BELTRE 5 Years / $8035217.5
NICK MARKAKIS 6 Years / $66.130216.25
JUSTIN UPTON **6 Years / $52.2526214.37
DAN UGGLA5 Years / $6234213
ALFONSO SORIANO **8 Years / $13638118
ALEX RIOS **7 Years / $69.83533112.5



I don't really have a specific point here except that while it's often easy to look at past deals and say, with perfect hindsight: "Well that one really sucked"; it can sometimes be more interesting to look at active deals and wonder how many teams would do them again, even with those that have barely started.


Random comments on some of the above:

VOTTO -- Terrific player, though power down a bit this season, has just turned 30 and the 10 years haven’t started yet.

LONGORIA -- Not a true FA deal, but six years were just tacked onto the original six year deal signed practically at his ML debut..

PUJOLS -- Looked too long/too heavy when it was signed, and looks a lot worse now. But, HEY, only 80% of it left to go.

POSEY -- Deal just starting. Age is good, position may cause a problem down the road.

ANDRUS -- Pre-FA deal, but with so-so performance and a better player on his teams' roster at his position, talk has it that Texas already wants out

PEDROIA -- Deal set to start next year.

FIELDER -- Coming off a somewhat down year, but so far has proven more durable than his bulk suggests and many fear.

BRAUN -- Well, the ON-field part has gone well

TULOWITSKI -- Only the injuries have been a problem so far

WRIGHT -- We’ll see, won’t we?

KEMP -- Immensely talented but erratic and injury prone.

ZIMMERMAN -- Hitting well but will need to move to 1B sooner rather than later

CASTRO --- Pre-FA deal, but a .284 OBA isn’t a good start

RIZZO -- Pre-FA deal, set to start next season

MAUER -- Injuries and position questions cloud the future.

PENCE -- Just signed.

ADAM JONES -- Pre-FA deal

MOLINA -- Deal starting just as the first injury-shortened year hits. Still, a near-MVP year.

HAMILTON -- Risky deal when it happened doesn’t look any better after Year 1

A. RODRIGUEZ -- Nuff said

WERTH -- Followed a down 1st year and injury shortened 2nd one with an MVP-quality 3rd. Maybe a long, lean, yoga-practicing athlete is just what you want as they get older. Down side is that he’ll be 35 next season

CRAWFORD -- Already dealt once, has yet to look as good since the signing as he did before.

REYES -- Worst thing about this deal is that it’s so back-loaded

ETHIER -- Currently injured and probably the odd man out in a crowded outfield. Team would almost certainly have to eat some money in order to deal him

C. GONZALEZ -- Pre-FA deal. Have to consider the Coors Factor if traded

BJ UPTON -- Horrid first season

HOWARD -- Looked too high/too long when it happened and now looks wose

TEIXEIRA -- BA starting to decline, but was still good prior to lost 2013

CABRERA -- Monster offensive numbers dwarf any conditioning questions ... so far

UGGLA -- Can’t be good when you get left off the playoff roster as the team’s highest paid player

MFS62
Oct 04 2013 08:41 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

IIRC, It used to be that when a player who had signed a long free agent was traded during that contract, he could become (his option) a free agent again the year following the trade.
Is that still true?

Later

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 04 2013 08:47 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

He would have the right to demand a trade, and if his team didn't trade him, he'd have the right to opt for free agency. Players would often withdraw their demand if not traded (I recall Darryl Hamilton doing this with the Mets) because they don't want to risk that their next contract would be less lucrative. I don't know if that rule is still in effect, though.

Edgy MD
Oct 04 2013 10:01 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

There are a lot of crazy people in this world, but it's hard to see Reyes' believing he'd get more money, if that's who you're thinking of.

Vic Sage
Oct 04 2013 10:02 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

These are the guys I would take from that list, if i had to pay the balance of their contracts (at the average annual price) from this point forward.

First, i would eliminate any deal that has me paying big money [15+M] to guys into their late 30s (37+), unless i'm also getting their prime years (27-33);
and i eliminate any catcher over 30, or anybody with recent chronic drug or injury problems or already showing a steady decline,
unless their avg salary is under $15m and there's only 1-2 years left:

[u:1z0buvo1]YES:[/u:1z0buvo1]
ANTHONY RIZZO - Wow. Take this deal in a heartbeat.
ADAM JONES - YES!
ANDREW McCUTCHEN - Duh.
JAY BRUCE - yup.
MIGUEL CABRERA - the exception to every rule
JUSTIN UPTON - coming into his prime.
DAVID WRIGHT - too long, but we got his prime years, too, so i'm happy to keep the captain on board.

So that's 6 of the 43 deals (plus Wright, whose deal i would not otherwise take). Not a great percentage. Of the rest:

[u:1z0buvo1]MAYBE:[/u:1z0buvo1]
EVAN LONGORIA - too long, and injuries, but I would still get his prime years
BUSTER POSEY - ditto, and good enough bat to switch positions later and extend his career
ELVIS ANDRUS - young, right length, maybe a bit pricey. If you think he can play, take him. I'm not sure i do.
RYAN ZIMMERMAN - injuries may force him off 3B; i don't know that his bat plays well enough at 1B
STARLIN CASTRO - young, right length, right price. If you think he can play, take him. I'm pretty sure i don't, but not positive.
ADRIAN GONZALEZ - a little too old, too long and too much, plus injuries, but i've always liked him.
JOSE REYES - $20m/yr for 4 more years (even if you don't factor in the back-loaded contract)
to end up with a 35-year old speedster who is already declining in SBs is high risk investment... but it's Reyes.
CARLOS GONZALEZ - Only question is if he's a Coors Field mirage; he may be.
MIGUEL MONTERO - injuries, borderline age for a C; maybe.
BRANDON PHILLIPS &
IAN KINSLER - 2 middle-aged 2bmen with good bats and gloves; both still cheap enough to consider (Kinsler is a bit younger and a few $ cheaper).
NICK MARKAKIS - seems to be declining already, but for 2 years i'd take a shot at his price.
ALEX RIOS - Only 1 year left; maybe

So there is another 10-15 borderline deals to consider, leaving about half of the total deals as outright NOs
unless the other team ate huge parts of the contract and didn't want that much in return.
Not a very good ratio, as far as i can tell.

Frayed Knot
Oct 04 2013 10:12 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Vic Sage wrote:
These are the guys I would take from that list, if i had to pay the balance of their contracts (at the average annual price).

First, i would eliminate any deal that has me paying big money [15+M] to guys into their late 30s (37+), unless i'm also getting their prime years (27-33); and i eliminate any catcher over 30, or anybody with recent chronic drug or injury problems or already showing a steady decline, unless their avg salary is under $15m and there's only 1-2 years left:

YES:
ANTHONY RIZZO - Wow. Take this deal in a heartbeat.
ADAM JONES - YES!
ANDREW McCUTCHEN - Duh.
JAY BRUCE - yup.
MIGUEL CABRERA - the exception to every rule
JUSTIN UPTON - coming into his prime.
DAVID WRIGHT - too long, but we got his prime years, too, so i'm happy to keep the captain on board.


Not surprisingly--and part of the point of this little project-- almost all of your 'YES' votes are for players with pre-FA deals that wouldn't be available to other teams on the open market. Only Wright and Cabrera are exceptions and even those two never made the open market either although both had enough service time when those deals were reached that their club had to at least pay close to a market rate for them.

The high percentage of remaining 'NO' and 'MAYBE' votes point out the risk of long-term/high-bucks deals and should give pause to the various Cano-chasers out there.

Edgy MD
Oct 04 2013 10:19 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Excellent point, which we can interpret as... tie up Murphy now? Even if you don't intend to keep him? Tie up Parnell?

Vic Sage wrote:
MIGUEL CABRERA - the exception to every rule.

Crappy fielder, carries extra weight, gravitating toward DH, apparent substance problems. Makes $22,000,000 a year and folks would fall over themselves to pay it, and probably would if he was 35.

That's a man who can hit.

Ceetar
Oct 04 2013 01:05 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Edgy MD wrote:
Excellent point, which we can interpret as... tie up Murphy now? Even if you don't intend to keep him? Tie up Parnell?

Vic Sage wrote:
MIGUEL CABRERA - the exception to every rule.

Crappy fielder, carries extra weight, gravitating toward DH, apparent substance problems. Makes $22,000,000 a year and folks would fall over themselves to pay it, and probably would if he was 35.

That's a man who can hit.


take him and toss the Mets on the pile for "DH Everywhere". *shrug* Hell, it's already in the rules so the NL could start up with the DH next year if they felt like it. I don't think people realize how easy it would be.

Edgy MD
Oct 05 2013 09:23 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I'm sure not going to get on board for the DH just because I think it somehow gives me a better chance to get the Tigers to give me their MVP.

Frayed Knot
Oct 05 2013 09:48 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

One way to look at this is to pretend that each of the players on that chart are [u:1wg65vo5]available right now[/u:1wg65vo5] via free-agency but that they [u:1wg65vo5]can only be signed for the years and dollars remaining[/u:1wg65vo5] (the two right-hand columns) on their current deal.
So if you want Tulowitski, for example, the only deal you can have him for is for $116mil over 7 years. Reyes would have to be inked $82mil/4yrs or you need to pass. And so on, as if all the GMs got together and got really drunk and put all their high-priced players on waivers.

I think it's safe to say that a bunch of the most prized FAs at the time of their deals (Pujols, ARod, Fielder, Hamilton) would NOT be the first ones picked up under this fictional scenario.

metsmarathon
Oct 10 2013 01:23 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

so i thought i'd take a look at hte players listed here and see what bbref's mot similar players thingy says about their expected level of production moving forward. maybe there's a hidden gem somewhere in the thickets. or maybe htey all suck. why not, right?

so what i'll put down is, for each player, the number of relevant comparable players, teh average number of years played, average number of games played (and games started for pitchers), and average WAR for the remainder of htese players careers.

this is kinda what i did way back in may in the choo thread, not that anybody really gave it much thought.

Jose Abreu, 1B: total wildcard.
Bronson Arroyo, SP: (9) 1 year, 27 games 21 games started, 0.1 WAR
Carlos Beltran, OF: (8) 3 years, 348 games, 1.8 WAR
Marlon Byrd, OF: (6) 1 year, 161 games, 1.0 WAR
John Buck, C: (8) 3 years, 352 games, 3.2 WAR
Chris Capuano, SP: (4) 3 years, 62 games 49 games started, 3.1 WAR
Joba Chamberlain, Yankees, RP: (7) 4 years, 176 games, 30 games started, 3.0 WAR
Shin-Soo Choo, OF: (9) 3 years, 354 games, 2.4 WAR
Nelson Cruz, OF: (5) 3 years, 265 games, 0.7 WAR
Stephen Drew, SS: (8) 5 years, 600 games, 4.9 WAR
Yunel Escobar, SS: (8) 4 years, 494 games, 5.6 WAR
Jason Frasor, RP: (6) 2 years, 127 games, 0 games started, 1.5 WAR
Curtis Granderson, OF: (8) 4 years 373 games, 5.0 WAR
LaTroy Hawkins, RP: (6) approximately 1 year, less than 1 WAR
J.P Howell, RP: (5) 4 years 201 games 0 games started 2.4 WAR
Josh Johnson, SP: (8) 4 years 125 games 51 games started 2.5 WAR

bonus money's no option pitchers:
1. Matt Garza (8) 4 years 122 games 97 games started 4.7 WAR
2. Ricky Nolasco (7) 4 years 113 games 93 games started 5.5 WAR
3. Ubaldo Jimenez (7) 5 years 134 games 91 games started 5.8 WAR
4. Hiroki Kuroda (7) 1 year 39 games 17 games started 0.8 WAR but comparables aren't really valid.
5. Tim Lincecum (7) 5 years 151 games 145 games started 16.5 WAR (a pair of HOF comps helps)

Boone Logan, Yankees RP: (3) 3 years 116 games 0 games started 0 WAR
Nate McLouth, OF: (7) 3 years 390 games 3.8 WAR
David Murphy, OF: (6) 3 years 232 games -0.1 WAR
Jhonny Peralta, SS: (7) 4 years 543 games 6.8 WAR

others:
Phil Hughes (4) 4 years 97 games 82 games started 3.1 WAR
Tim Stauffer (10) 3 years 113 games 26 games started 2.8 WAR
Mike Morse (6) 4 years 415 games 3.3 WAR
Nick Punto (6) 4 years 269 games 2.2 WAR

so what does this tell us? well, the most important takeaway is that most players out there aren't really going to give you more than 3 WAR over hte next 3-4 years, and some much less. so spend and plan accordingly.

peralta's 6.8 projected WAR translates to about $34M current year dollars. yunel escobar comes in at $28M and granderson at $25M.

oh, and tim lincecum projects to $80M of value over the remainder of his career, though there's a really big standard deviation on that one.

unexpectedly, nate mclouth projects out to more value over hte next three years than choo or beltran, giving back 3.8 WAR, or $19M in value. could probably get him for less than that, making him a not altogether unreasonable target. presuming of course you allow this methodology to hold any sway in your thought processes.

OE:

i left off jacoby ellsbury: (7) 6 years 716 games, 9.0 WAR. he'll command more than the projected $46M value he'll return.

and for bonus material: hunter pence, recently re-upped for big bucks. (9) 7 years 801 games 9.3 WAR.

double bonus material: robinson cano: (8) 5 years, 679 games, 13.5 WAR.

triple bonus material: david wright, (6) 9 years, 1168 games, 27 WAR.

for what its worth...

Frayed Knot
Nov 11 2013 12:52 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide


PLAYERORIGINAL CONTRACTAGE 2014YEARS Rem.AVG $ / YR
JOE MAUER8 Years / $18431523



MAUER -- Injuries and position questions cloud the future.


And now comes word that Mauer will transition to full-time 1st baseman starting next season - which basically makes him Todd Helton with a lot less power and a tougher home park.
He never played again after taking a foul ball off the top of his catcher helmet during a Mets game in August.

seawolf17
Nov 11 2013 01:01 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Frayed Knot wrote:
He never played again after taking a foul ball off the top of his catcher helmet during a Mets game in August.


"2013 Mets: We might not have won many games, but we sure did beat the hell out of the opposition."

Frayed Knot
Nov 11 2013 02:26 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

seawolf17 wrote:
He never played again after taking a foul ball off the top of his catcher helmet during a Mets game in August.


"2013 Mets: We might not have won many games, but we sure did beat the hell out of the opposition."


Mauer, Hudson, Heyward, ...

MFS62
Nov 13 2013 09:14 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Saw on Yahoo sports that Pedroia had hand surgery. That might slow some teams down in their pursuit of him (or lower their offers).

Later

Frayed Knot
Nov 14 2013 06:16 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Pedroia's not a FA.
He just signed an 8-year extension at the beginning of the season that doesn't even begin until 2014

Ashie62
Nov 14 2013 05:09 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Saw on the twitterverse Sandy met with Peralta and Ike to Colorocky may have some traction...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 14 2013 05:26 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Yes, but then you see things like this, and yes, it's a negotiation, but... yeesh.

Tweetster Olney wrote:
Jhonny Peralta's reps said to be looking for big-time money, far more than 3/45m.

Ashie62
Nov 16 2013 12:38 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Maybe you just don't buy anybody...

Lefty Specialist
Nov 16 2013 01:41 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Looks like another winter of shopping in the clearance aisle, hoping one or two has a Marlon Byrd-type breakout.

Next year is about getting the kids their reps and figuring out how to structure the team in 2015. I'd be shocked if they did something major because the minute Harvey went under the knife plans should have changed.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 16 2013 02:04 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Lefty Specialist wrote:
the minute Harvey went under the knife plans should have changed.


I don't agree with that. Whoever wins the pennant this year will do so without Matt Harvey.

Ceetar
Nov 16 2013 02:09 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Lefty Specialist wrote:
Looks like another winter of shopping in the clearance aisle, hoping one or two has a Marlon Byrd-type breakout.

Next year is about getting the kids their reps and figuring out how to structure the team in 2015. I'd be shocked if they did something major because the minute Harvey went under the knife plans should have changed.


and when Wheeler has Tommy JOhn next offseason we'll wait until 2016.

Really, unless everything goes perfectly, keep pushing the goal posts.

Edgy MD
Nov 16 2013 02:25 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

They're going to do something. Maybe not enough for many. And maybe it's impossible to do enough for some. But they're going to do something. And nobody's going to be shocked.

Frayed Knot
Feb 05 2014 07:11 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 05 2014 06:58 PM

Finishing up the winter signing season--although additions may still come as seen by yesterday's long-term deal for Freddie Freeman--by adding the new Five-Year-Plus deals to the existing (hitter only) ones below. The Freeman deal, which is obviously not a true FA deal but a buy-out of arb years plus his first few potential FA seasons, was the longest and costliest in Braves history.
Also on the original list we can add Prince Fielder and Ian Kinsler (dealt for each other) to those who were traded away (**) by the team that signed them before that deal had the chance to run out.


PLAYERCONTRACTAGE 2014YEARS RemAvg $ / Yr
Brain McCann5 Years / $85305$17
Robinson Cano10 Years / $2403110$24
Jacoby Ellsbury7 Years / $153307$21.86
Shin-Soo Choo7 Years / $130317$18.57
Freddie Freeman8 Years248$16.875
JOSE ABREU6 Years / $696$11.33


PLAYERORIGINAL CONTRACTAGE 2014YEARS Rem.AVG $ / YR
JOEY VOTTO10 Years / $225301022.5
EVAN LONGORIA6 Years / $10028914.4
ALBERT PUJOLS10 Years / $24034826.5
BUSTER POSEY9 Years / $16727819.25
ELVIS ANDRUS8 Years / $12025815
DUSTIN PEDROIA8 Years / $11030813.75
PRINCE FIELDER **9 Years / $21430724
RYAN BRAUN8 Years / $4530717.85
TROY TULOWITSKI10 Years / $157.7529716.57
DAVID WRIGHT8 Years / $13831715.875
MATT KEMP8 Years / $16029621.33
RYAN ZIMMERMAN6 Years / $10029614.67
STARLIN CASTRO7 Years / $602469.17
ANTHONY RIZZO7 Years / $412466.71
JOE MAUER8 Years / $18431523
ADRIAN GONZALEZ **7 Years / $15432521.2
HUNTER PENCE5 Years / $9031518
ADAM JONES6 Years / $88.528515
YADIER MOLINA5 Years / $7531514.8
JOSH HAMILTON5 Years / $12533424.5
ALEX RODRIGUEZ10 Years / $27538421.5
JAYSON WERTH7 Years / $12635420.75
CARL CRAWFORD **7 Years / $14232420.63
JOSE REYES **6 Years / $10631420.5
ANDRE ETHIER5 Years / $8532416.88
CARLOS GONZALEZ7 Years / $8028415.88
BJ UPTON5 Years / $75.2529415.7
MIGUEL MONTERO5 Years / $6030412.5
BRANDON PHILLIPS6 Years / $72.533411.75
IAN KINSLER **5 Years / $7532411.25
ANDREW McCUTCHEN6 Years / $51.527411.06
RYAN HOWARD5 Years / $12534325
MARK TEIXEIRA8 Years / $18034322.5
MATT HOLLIDAY7 Years / $12034317
JOSE BAUTISTA5 Years / $6533314
JAY BRUCE6 Years / $5127312.5
MIGUEL CABRERA8 Years / $152.331222
ADRIAN BELTRE5 Years / $8035217.5
NICK MARKAKIS 6 Years / $66.130216.25
JUSTIN UPTON **6 Years / $52.2526214.37
DAN UGGLA5 Years / $6234213
ALFONSO SORIANO **8 Years / $13638118
ALEX RIOS **7 Years / $69.83533112.5

duan
Feb 05 2014 09:41 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

how many of those deals would you claim on waivers?
Longoria, Pedroia, Tulo (ish), D Wright, Monlina, Carlos Gonzalez, Philips ?, McCutchen, Holliday, Bautista, Cabrera, Beltre, Justin Upton.

Would probably be where I'd be at.

Frayed Knot
Feb 05 2014 10:06 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

duan wrote:
how many of those deals would you claim on waivers?
Longoria, Pedroia, Tulo (ish), D Wright, Monlina, Carlos Gonzalez, Philips ?, McCutchen, Holliday, Bautista, Cabrera, Beltre, Justin Upton.

Would probably be where I'd be at.


As noted earlier, almost all of the most attractive ones are pre-FA contracts.

Edgy MD
Feb 05 2014 10:14 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I'd gobble up Longoria's deal like a hungry hippo.

Ashie62
Feb 05 2014 11:28 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

And move David to SS

Nymr83
Feb 06 2014 08:04 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I'd take the Andrus deal too.

Vic Sage
Feb 06 2014 01:50 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

updating my earlier post:

These are the guys I would take from that list, if i had to pay the balance of their contracts (at the average annual price) from this point forward.

First, i would eliminate any deal that has me paying big money [15+M] to guys into their late 30s (37+), unless i'm also getting their prime years (27-33);
and i eliminate any catcher over 30, or anybody with recent chronic drug or injury problems or already showing a steady decline,
unless their avg salary is under $15m and there's only 1-2 years left:

YES:
ANTHONY RIZZO - Wow. Take this deal in a heartbeat.
ADAM JONES - YES!
ANDREW McCUTCHEN - Duh.
JAY BRUCE - yup.
MIGUEL CABRERA - the exception to every rule
JUSTIN UPTON - coming into his prime.
DAVID WRIGHT - too long, but we got his prime years, too, so i'm happy to keep the captain on board.

So that's 6 of the 43 deals (plus Wright, whose deal i would not otherwise take). Not a great percentage.


I would now add the Freeman deal to this list, making it 8 out of 49 deals.

Of the rest:

MAYBE:
EVAN LONGORIA - too long, and injuries, but I would still get his prime years
BUSTER POSEY - ditto, and good enough bat to switch positions later and extend his career
ELVIS ANDRUS - young, right length, maybe a bit pricey. If you think he can play, take him. I'm not sure i do.
RYAN ZIMMERMAN - injuries may force him off 3B; i don't know that his bat plays well enough at 1B
STARLIN CASTRO - young, right length, right price. If you think he can play, take him. I'm pretty sure i don't, but not positive.
ADRIAN GONZALEZ - a little too old, too long and too much, plus injuries, but i've always liked him.
JOSE REYES - $20m/yr for 4 more years (even if you don't factor in the back-loaded contract)
to end up with a 35-year old speedster who is already declining in SBs is high risk investment... but it's Reyes.
CARLOS GONZALEZ - Only question is if he's a Coors Field mirage; he may be.
MIGUEL MONTERO - injuries, borderline age for a C; maybe.
BRANDON PHILLIPS &
IAN KINSLER - 2 middle-aged 2bmen with good bats and gloves; both still cheap enough to consider (Kinsler is a bit younger and a few $ cheaper).
NICK MARKAKIS - seems to be declining already, but for 2 years i'd take a shot at his price.
ALEX RIOS - Only 1 year left; maybe


And i would Abreu to this list. We don't know enough about him yet, but it might end up a very good deal.

So there is another 10-15 borderline deals to consider, leaving about half of the total deals as outright NOs
unless the other team ate huge parts of the contract and didn't want that much in return.
Not a very good ratio, as far as i can tell.


Still true, with 8 yes and 14 borderline deals, making 22 out of 49 deals worth considering (27 being an outright NO). I wouldn't touch any of those other recent deals due to their length, player age, and avg salary. However, if i thought my team was one of those players away from winning a championship this year, i would reconsider.

Frayed Knot
Mar 28 2014 06:21 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

So the list of ten-year deals for players age 30+ currently looks like this:
* ARod [signed at age 32] - Deal is a disaster and continues to get worse
* Pujols [signed one month prior to turning 32] - Deal started looking bad the very first season it was signed and still has 8 years to go
* Cano [signed just after turning 31] - Just signed so obviously no track record yet, but is there anyone out there who thinks this was a smart move?

And now it looks like we can add Miguel Cabrera to that pile as Detroit is on the verge of replacing the final two years of his existing deal (let me repeat that: he was already signed through his age 32 season) with a deal reportedly for ten-years and $292 million ... plus incentives (what, the deal itself isn't incentive enough?!?)
Miggy turns 31 in mid April - but at least he's in tip-top shape ... oh wait.
Well at least he brings secondary skills to the table in case his hitting slips ... oh wait.
OK, but it's not like he has a history of off-field drug or alcohol problems or anything ... ummmm.

Vic Sage
Mar 28 2014 08:59 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

amazing. is it just arrogance? stupidity? or is there some financial modeling going on that shows the short-term gain (which is speculative) is worth the long-term deficit (which is definite) of these deals? Here, there isn't even short-term gain, since they had Miggy signed for 2 more years already.

There must be some BB economist out there who can explain to us why the successful businessmen who own teams continue to make such decisions despite them NEVER working out. I mean, nobody is SHOCKED by the Pujols situation, are they? Certainly the Cards aren't. He was already starting to plateau and decline when he signed the Angels deal; it was just that he was declining from such a height that he was still excellent. But his trajectory was already defined. How do you sign a guy like that to a 10-year deal at that price? or this guy, who is even less the athletic specimen than Pujols is.

batmagadanleadoff
Mar 28 2014 09:03 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Maybe they're counting on runaway inflation and a MLB revenue stream that doubles every three years.

Edgy MD
Mar 28 2014 09:36 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

It is true that $29 million in 2014 won't be $29 million in 2023.

Wow! 2023!

What are the Red Sox and the Yankees going to be bidding for Mike Trout when they get half a chance? $45 million per season? $50 million?

HahnSolo
Mar 28 2014 09:40 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

And to think the Tigers were getting praise just a few months ago for unloading a big contract.

Frayed Knot
Mar 28 2014 10:08 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

... I mean, nobody is SHOCKED by the Pujols situation, are they? Certainly the Cards aren't.


The only thing shocking about Pujols (and 'shocking' probably isn't the right word here -- surprising maybe) is how quickly he fell. It certainly could have been reasonable for the Angles to figure on a couple of similar seasons to what he gave StL for a decade prior to start losing it in chunks. That it came quicker than expected (and maybe some was injury related and there'll be a partial bounce-back for, say, 2014-15) is what's making look so bad, so early, but even there you would have expected that to be a bigger red flag for the Tiggers not a signal to go and top it for a similar hitter with worse secondary skills only one year younger at the time of the contract.

Edgy MD
Mar 28 2014 10:14 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

"Worse" is sort of generous. Pujols is a fine fielder and a really good baserunner even while not being particularly fast. The best I can say for Cabrera's defense is that he seems indifferent.

Frayed Knot
Mar 28 2014 10:30 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I was rushed for time and didn't want to type out: 'Totally Fucking Worse to the point where they barely represent the same species'.



Pujols pre (5 years) FA deal = .324/.423/.602 // 1025 -- 620 ABs/Yr
Pujols post (2 years) FA deal = .275/.338/.485 // 823 -- 499 ABs/Yr

ARod pre (5 years) FA deal = .302/.401/.578 // 979 -- 594 ABs/Yr
ARod post (6 Years) FA deal = .279/.369/.448 // 817 -- 411 ABs/Yr

Vic Sage
Mar 28 2014 11:07 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Frayed Knot wrote:
I was rushed for time and didn't want to type out: 'Totally Fucking Worse to the point where they barely represent the same species'.

Pujols pre (5 years) FA deal = .324/.423/.602 // 1025 -- 620 ABs/Yr
Pujols post (2 years) FA deal = .275/.338/.485 // 823 -- 499 ABs/Yr

ARod pre (5 years) FA deal = .302/.401/.578 // 979 -- 594 ABs/Yr
ARod post (6 Years) FA deal = .279/.369/.448 // 817 -- 411 ABs/Yr


Yes, but if you look at Pujols' last year with St.L, you can see his decline already starting. He hit under .300, and with less than 100rbi, both for the first time in his career. It was still an excellent season for a mortal, with an OPS+ of 148, but that was also the lowest OPS+ he'd ever put up. At age 31, it was not hard to think the arrow may have begun to point down; certainly St.L was smart enough to realize it and they were unwilling to give him stupid long-term money even though he may have been their best player since Stan Musial, and could've been a similarly iconic lifer for the franchise. But that is why they are a consistently successful franchise; they looked at that and said no, Al, if you want a 10-year deal, go to Anaheim. And now he's the Angels' AL-batross.

Frayed Knot
Mar 28 2014 11:46 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Yes, but if you look at Pujols' last year with St.L, you can see his decline already starting. He hit under .300, and with less than 100rbi, both for the first time in his career. It was still an excellent season for a mortal, with an OPS+ of 148, but that was also the lowest OPS+ he'd ever put up. At age 31, it was not hard to think the arrow may have begun to point down; certainly St.L was smart enough to realize it and they were unwilling to give him stupid long-term money even though he may have been their best player since Stan Musial, and could've been a similarly iconic lifer for the franchise. But that is why they are a consistently successful franchise; they looked at that and said no, Al, if you want a 10-year deal, go to Anaheim. And now he's the Angels' AL-batross.


All true. My only point was that Pujols didn't merely continue his shallow decline of the previous few seasons upon hitting Anaheim, he fell off a fucking table relatively speaking.
And StL did offer him a big deal (I believe it was for eight years) so it's not like saw what was happening and knew it was time to get out of the Albert business entirely, they were just smart enough not to overboard in some kind of vain attempt to top what someone else was willing to do. Same could be said for the Yanx & Cano.
In Detroit's case though it's even worse as there was neither an outside bidder nor a time table that required them to do anything for at least 18 more months.

Weird.

Zvon
Mar 28 2014 12:41 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

How are the Tiggers attendence numbers? Do they expect a bump at the gate due to this? I can't see how doing this now makes any sense at all.

Frayed Knot
Mar 28 2014 01:56 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

I can't see how either current or projected attendance has anything to do with this; Cabrera was going to be there this year and next with or without a contract extension.
Essentially what the Tiggers are doing here is saying that the thought of possibly losing Cabrera after his age-32 season was so scary that they were willing to take a bet on him (two years before being forced to) still being worth top-flight hitter money for a good chunk of his age 34-40 seasons.

I don't think many would bet that way but, like they say, it only takes one.

Ashie62
Mar 28 2014 04:41 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Pujols, Cano, Cabrera.. maybe these type of contracts are the new normal...

Edgy MD
Mar 28 2014 05:24 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Well, three out of 1,200 is a far cry from normal.

Frayed Knot
Mar 29 2014 05:50 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

It didn't take more than a few minutes after the Cabrera deal was announced that speculation began about what this means for Mike Trout.
Well, it took less than 24 hours before we had an answer: 6 years / $144.5

Totally different situations of course; Trout won't turn 23 until August and while the Angels had control of him anyway for the next three seasons beyond this one (the deal goes into effect starting with the 2015 season) this buys out those three years of arbitration plus the first three years of FA-gency.
Trout was still pre-arb this year and will make an even $1mil. Next year he gets a slight raise up to just north of $24 million. He'll be eligible for FA the year he turns 29

Somewhere, Bryce Harper is smiling.

Mets Guy in Michigan
Mar 29 2014 07:11 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

And that's the bad part -- one horrible deal by one owner sets the market sets standards that the rest of the team has to live up to. How long before the average all-star commands $20 million?

Frayed Knot
Mar 29 2014 07:26 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
How long before the average all-star commands $20 million?


Y'know what, if the owners have the money -- and it certainly appears that they do -- then who cares?

OK it'll matter if and when either teams start to go out of business or fans start to stay away because they're priced out of their seats in order to pay for these contracts - but not only is neither happening right now (despite decades of dire predictions that such scenarios were just around the corner) but the trends for the most part are marching in exactly the opposite direction.

Ceetar
Mar 29 2014 09:05 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Frayed Knot wrote:
metsguyinmichigan wrote:
How long before the average all-star commands $20 million?


Y'know what, if the owners have the money -- and it certainly appears that they do -- then who cares?

OK it'll matter if and when either teams start to go out of business or fans start to stay away because they're priced out of their seats in order to pay for these contracts - but not only is neither happening right now (despite decades of dire predictions that such scenarios were just around the corner) but the trends for the most part are marching in exactly the opposite direction.


Oh, we're paying for it. It's just in the cable bill not (just) the ticket prices.

The amount of money Verizon gets from me a month could probably pay a mortgage in some parts of the country.

batmagadanleadoff
Mar 29 2014 09:53 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

In 1980, the Payson family sold the Mets -- the NYC NL franchise, ferchrissakes! -- for 21 million dollars. Last year, Johan Santana, inactive and past his prime even if healthy, made 25 million dollars in baseball salary alone -- and the NY Mets were valued at two billion dollars in a Bloomberg Report. So yeah -- things keep going up. And MLB will continue to explore new untapped revenue streams, including expanding PAY TV, pay internet and international expansion. They'll put a Major League Baseball franchise on a mountaintop in Afghanistan if their money guys tell them that the move'll make boffo money. They'll also put more American cities into baseball and more teams into the playoffs. Whatever it takes to make more $$, and they won't give a shit if MLB starts to resemble the NHL a little bit.

The NYT $$ article I posted yesterday in the Finance thread stated that the Mets ability to acquire Free agents was improved because every team received an additional many millions more from MLB's new TV contract. I don't agree with that reasoning because increasing the money supply without increasing the quantity of available goods will only raise prices (salaries here). If the Mets are getting an additional $20M, then so is every other team. So where's the competitive advantage? This'll help the players more than the teams. If you wanna lower salaries, increase the number of quality free agents available (goods) instead of the money supply. Because if everyone was a millionaire, you'd need 10 million dollars to buy a starter home in an average neighborhood.

Frayed Knot
Mar 29 2014 09:58 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Oh, we're paying for it. It's just in the cable bill not (just) the ticket prices.


Of course we're paying for it (in one form or another).
The point is that baseball fans have proven themselves to be quite willing to pay for it* and until they show otherwise this conversation of 'I can't believe how much Player X is getting' hasn't changed since the favored complaints were about how criminal it was that backup infielders were making 50K.





* something which has to be a surprise for those at ESPN who keep telling me that the set of baseball fans in America now is down to Bob Costas, George Will, plus seven or eight guys in a nursing home somewhere, and despite the fact that their network just re-upped a deal with MLB for double the money they were previously paying

Edgy MD
Mar 29 2014 10:01 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

With this much value flying around (and yes, value due to people paying lots of $$ for their beisbol), it's amazing the independent leagues don't just say, "Fuck it" and start parking teams in these ridiculous exclusive territories MLB is declaring for themselves.

When the St. Paul Saints outdrew the Twins one dark year, it should have been a rallying cry. Instead it's this quaint novelty. It in fact helped MLB soak municipalities for more free ballpark money.

Ceetar
Mar 29 2014 11:20 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Frayed Knot wrote:
Oh, we're paying for it. It's just in the cable bill not (just) the ticket prices.


Of course we're paying for it (in one form or another).
The point is that baseball fans have proven themselves to be quite willing to pay for it* and until they show otherwise this conversation of 'I can't believe how much Player X is getting' hasn't changed since the favored complaints were about how criminal it was that backup infielders were making 50K.





* something which has to be a surprise for those at ESPN who keep telling me that the set of baseball fans in America now is down to Bob Costas, George Will, plus seven or eight guys in a nursing home somewhere, and despite the fact that their network just re-upped a deal with MLB for double the money they were previously paying


Because we haven't actually been priced out, at least in part because of cable deals. Without which, would prices for seats reach NFL/NBA levels?

Edgy MD
Mar 29 2014 11:30 AM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Which "why" is your "because" in response to? Because I'm not following.

Ceetar
Mar 29 2014 12:40 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Edgy MD wrote:
Which "why" is your "because" in response to? Because I'm not following.


why fans have shown they're willing to pay for it?

Because we haven't been priced out.

Why? because a lot of the onus is on the cable companies and spread among many customers, some of who doesn't even watch baseball.

Because cable deals are paying teams huge amounts of money.

Why? Because the sport is thriving and fans are watching.

Because baseball is awesome.

TheOldMole
Mar 29 2014 12:47 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

Which "why" is your "because" in response to?


Oh, he's in center field. We're not talking about him.

batmagadanleadoff
Mar 31 2014 01:13 PM
Re: Free Agents Ain't Free. A Mets Shopper's Guide

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
In 1980, the Payson family sold the Mets -- the NYC NL franchise, ferchrissakes! -- for 21 million dollars. Last year, Johan Santana, inactive and past his prime even if healthy, made 25 million dollars in baseball salary alone -- and the NY Mets were valued at two billion dollars in a Bloomberg Report. So yeah -- things keep going up. And MLB will continue to explore new untapped revenue streams, including expanding PAY TV, pay internet and international expansion. They'll put a Major League Baseball franchise on a mountaintop in Afghanistan if their money guys tell them that the move'll make boffo money. They'll also put more American cities into baseball and more teams into the playoffs. Whatever it takes to make more $$, and they won't give a shit if MLB starts to resemble the NHL a little bit.

The NYT $$ article I posted yesterday in the Finance thread stated that the Mets ability to acquire Free agents was improved because every team received an additional many millions more from MLB's new TV contract. I don't agree with that reasoning because increasing the money supply without increasing the quantity of available goods will only raise prices (salaries here). If the Mets are getting an additional $20M, then so is every other team. So where's the competitive advantage? This'll help the players more than the teams. If you wanna lower salaries, increase the number of quality free agents available (goods) instead of the money supply. Because if everyone was a millionaire, you'd need 10 million dollars to buy a starter home in an average neighborhood.


Despite the current lull in expansion chatter, my guess is that MLB will add two teams in the near future. 16 team leagues work much neater than 15 team leagues, not only because 16 is an even number, but because it's also divisible by four. I'd bet on another realignment to four eight-team divisions with the top two teams making the playoffs. I won't like it, but it makes sense schedule wise and also, because the owners are in it for the money and wouldn't turn down buy in fees no matter what.