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Race and Reggie

Edgy MD Oct 07 2013 11:34 AM

Tabloid fodder out there seems to have Reggie Jackson releasing a new "tell all" memoir in which he repeats his tired saw that the Mets didn't draft him because they couldn't handle his blackness (or his dating a Mexican woman). Bobby Winkles, who I cited in the Doc Ellis thread and is apparently alive at the current time, is his source. Maybe a good idea to track down Winkles and get to the bottom of it. History demands more, Reg.

Edgy MD Oct 07 2013 11:37 AM Re: Race

“I think about that sometimes. I would’ve been coming up just as that team was finally improving. They had all those great arms: Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Jon Matlack, Nolan Ryan, Tug McGraw. Oh boy!” Because, somehow, trying to get money out of the Mets would have somehow worked out better than it did with the A's? Dude won five World Series in seven years and wonders wistfully what would have happened if he got a better break and became a Met? I'm thinking it's got to be his third memoir.

SteveJRogers Oct 07 2013 11:54 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Seems like this keeps getting recycled... [url]https://www.google.com/url?q=http://archives.cranepoolforum.net/800/f1_t864.shtml&sa=U&ei=QPRSUt_4NKvY7AaJqIGIDg&ved=0CA0QFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHuOuYM_JdD3I3_SXj2AHInsSb_gw Dude won five World Series in seven years and wonders wistfully what would have happened if he got a better break and became a Met? Buyers remorse about getting in bed with the nutjobs in the Bronx?

Edgy MD Oct 07 2013 12:04 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Oh, yeah, certainly recycled. Big part of my point. Sorry to be part of the cycle.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 07 2013 12:42 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Thanks for the old link, Rogers. The other stuff I came up with since that old thread were stories of Casey making a personal scouting visit to see Chilcott play in high school while the Mets were visiting the West Coast. I do believe Casey missed managing a game to make the trip (also he and Chilcott were from the same neck of the woods). I get the impression that Casey wasn't the head decisionmaker, but that his thumbs-up was important to the organization then and inasmuch as the writers knew he made the trip, helped to sell the decision to select Chilcott. But again, it said nothing over how much they preferred him to Jackson, or whatever. There may have been some concerns over Jackson's character for all we know.

Frayed Knot Oct 07 2013 01:42 PM Re: Race and Reggie Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 07 2013 02:56 PM

Baseball America ran a story, maybe ten years back, about HS catchers and the draft during the time Joe Mauer was working his way through the minors. Anyway, in it there was the inevitable sidebar article on Chilcott. The story they told was that the Mets went into that draft divided on the Chilcott/Jackson question before eventually settling on Chilcott. Whitey Herzog, who was then the NYM personnel director (or whatever the specific title was), supposedly went around to his (then 19) counterparts after the draft to ask who they would have gone with if they had the #1 overall pick. The supposed result of this informal poll was 10-9 in favor of Reggie, meaning it was a flat 10-10 tie with the Met vote thrown in.* Bottom line being: - this story is neither new nor is there anything new here to confirm it - the idea that the Chicott pick was a known mistake all along is revisionist history which largely became gospel to some based on the result - that the "snub" was racism based on the Mexican girlfriend and/or Jackson's "uppity" (in the parlance of the time) attitude, while certainly possible, still appears to have Reggie as its only source - ASU coach Bobby Winkles is still alive but I've never heard whether he backs the story or not including in Reggie's earlier bio where co-writer (read: writer) Mike Lupica was more interested in cashing in on the story of the moment then he was in being an actual journalist and so just tossed all that aside and never bothered to confirm the story with the then still very active Winkles. - And if Winkles DID tell this to Reggie who told it to Winkles? Or did he just infer it from sketchy information himself? - Reggie is a known bullshitter and incessant self-promoter who would probably claim to have solved the Lindbergh baby kidnapping if he could just believably alter those damned dates on his birth certificate. * and now I see that I told that same story in the linked piece

Edgy MD Oct 07 2013 01:44 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Which still leaves us with somebody needing to call Winkles while he's still available. I vote for MetsGuy, who has press credibility. Reggie takes on the Casey angle: He blamed the Mets’ infamous draft-day decision on Bob Scheffing, the team’s director of player development. According to Jackson, he was also the guy who would later trade Nolan Ryan. But Scheffing tried to pass the blame on to Casey Stengel, who was scouting for the team at the time. “I know I never saw Casey Stengel when I was being scouted,” writes Jackson. “And how could you be in a ballpark and not know if Casey Stengel was there?” I know it's all about you, Reggie, but Casey being in on the decision doesn't mean he scouted you. Bob Scheffing, before he joined the Klan with the Mets, managed the 1961 Tigers to 101 games.

Mets – Willets Point Oct 07 2013 01:50 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Edgy MD wrote: Bob Scheffing, before he joined the Klan with the Mets, managed the 1961 Tigers to 101 games. Actually, it looks like he managed all of them. 101 wins and still 8 games back and out of the World Series. Damn.

Mets – Willets Point Oct 07 2013 01:54 PM Re: Race and Reggie

By the way, someone should write some fan-fiction about what happens to the Mets in an alternative universe in which Johnny Murphy and Gil Hodges each live to a ripe old age.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 07 2013 01:56 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Unless you extend Joan Payson's life as well, I suspect that Gil gets fired by M. Donald Grant, or quits in frustration to go to another team, somewhere around 1977.

Mets – Willets Point Oct 07 2013 01:59 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Unless you extend Joan Payson's life as well, I suspect that Gil gets fired by M. Donald Grant, or quits in frustration to go to another team, somewhere around 1977. Well that's five more years to build a juggernaut at least. Or not, depending on the whims of the author of this fiction.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 07 2013 02:20 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Scheffing was in the GM chair mainly because Devine left suddenly -- then Murphy died suddenly, then Whitey wasn't asked (or wasn't around, I forget the timing). It is a job he did not want, or do very effectively. HIS replacement was Joe McDonald who'd been hanging around the Mets as a glorified intern initially. This degradation of management talent is a really telling indicator of the Mets fortunes under the Payson Reign. IIRC, they brought Scheffing out of retirement just to do scouting initially and eventually he found himself absorbing more and more and the org had less and less internally.

Edgy MD Oct 07 2013 02:27 PM Re: Race and Reggie

"Trust me, Brother, there are worse things to be than a glorified intern sitting in the right place when the big job came open."

dinosaur jesus Oct 07 2013 03:40 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Chilcott could play. He got hurt when he was 18, but he was as good a hitter as his teammate Ken Singleton, and two years younger. It's awfully unlikely he would have been near as good as Reggie Jackson, but he wasn't a joke.

Edgy MD Oct 07 2013 03:51 PM Re: Race and Reggie

HOLY SHIT! Ken Singleton! There's the guy right there that, while he certainly doesn't disprove Reggie's contention, throws a big bucket o' cold water on it. Wifey Watch Machine, do your thing.

SteveJRogers Oct 07 2013 04:40 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Edgy MD wrote: HOLY SHIT! Ken Singleton! There's the guy right there that, while he certainly doesn't disprove Reggie's contention, throws a big bucket o' cold water on it. Wifey Watch Machine, do your thing. Not so fast! Met her as an Oriole. [url]http://www.thebeaconnewspaper.com/select-stories/features/she-shares-inspiration-online

Edgy MD Oct 07 2013 04:43 PM Re: Race and Reggie

while he certainly doesn't disprove Reggie's contention

Frayed Knot Oct 07 2013 04:54 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Y'know, Reggie is sounding more and more like ARod - or maybe the other way around seeing as how Reggie cam first and Rodriguez has admitted going to Jackson for advice (or is it Reggie bragging about how he's Alex's mentor? ... I can never keep these things straight).' But think about it: the whole 'I really wanted to play with this team' ... but I also wanted to play with that team' ... and how good would it have been if I wound up with those guys?', yadda, yadda. It's no different then Arod three decades later claiming he really wanted to be a Met ... except that he said the same thing about the Braves (until they wouldn't give him a no-trade) ... and then he loved working out the trade to the Yanx, but only after his attempts to work it out with Boston didn't work out when he was trying to get away from the deal he originally signed with Texas which was, at the time, the place he said he wanted to be all along. And he loved being a Yank until he opted out at the first possible moment (and in the middle of a WS game). It's the whole neediness despite all the stardom, fame, and money. They both want and wanted all that stuff so much that only later on does it occur to them that they want to be loved by everyone also.

MFS62 Oct 07 2013 09:24 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Scheffing had been a major league catcher for 8 years. Pure speculation on my part, but maybe that's what tilted his recommendation toward Chilcott. Later

Zvon Oct 08 2013 05:37 AM Re: Race and Reggie

He would'a looked good in a Met uniform. But then again who wouldn't?

G-Fafif Oct 08 2013 06:36 AM Re: Race and Reggie

During Reggie's first year in New York, the MFYs were home on an off day so Jackson spent his evening at Shea Stadium causing a mild stir watching the Mets beat the Cardinals. The attraction, he said, was his Arizona State landsman Lenny Randle, but I recall a quote coming out of his surprise appearance that sure he would've liked to have been a Met, but they didn't pursue him, or something like that. Free agent Oriole Reggie Jackson, 1976, was reincarnated as disgruntled Dodger Mike Piazza, 1998, and at least we went for it the next time someone of that gaudy ilk came around. (Not that gaudy ilk has always been avoided or always worked out -- I'm thinking with hindsight here.) Recall an article in (I think) the Daily News in the last 15 or so years that caught up with Chilcott and emphasized, much as Dino said, he was very much a top prospect for whom fate had other plans. Then again, I just found this wire story from 1966 and shuddered: The Mets, always full of surprises, pulled another one yesterday when they selected 17-year-old catcher Steve Chilcott of Lancaster, Calif., as the No. 1 pick in major league baseball's annual draft. The Mets, who earned the right to select first because of their low standing in the majors last season, were expected to go for classy outfielder Reggie Jackson of Arizona State, but chose Chilcott, who batted .500 for his high school team last year. "Batted .500 for his high school team" sounds very damning knowing what we know 47 years later, as if to say, "His high school team played Wiffle Ball only." Casey (who had a thing for catchers, whether they were his man Mr. Berra or the first pick in a different kind of draft, Hobie Landrith) did like him some Chilcott after the fact, but nothing contemporary indicates he did or didn't want Jackson.

Edgy MD Oct 08 2013 07:46 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Zvon wrote: He would'a looked good in a Met uniform. But then again who wouldn't? And what uniform would he have looked bad in? OK, the Angels.

Edgy MD Oct 08 2013 07:50 AM Re: Race and Reggie

G-Fafif wrote: Casey (who had a thing for catchers, whether they were his man Mr. Berra or the first pick in a different kind of draft, Hobie Landrith) did like him some Chilcott after the fact, but nothing contemporary indicates he did or didn't want Jackson. Some nice American Legion ball action in that clipping too.

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2013 07:56 AM Re: Race and Reggie

The Mets, always full of surprises, ... You wonder what aspect of the Mets the "always full of surprises" line was aimed at? The draft? -- There had been all of ONE draft up to that point so it wasn't like there was an established track record of surprise picks. Their standings? -- No, they were consistently UNsurprising in their finishes from 1962-66 The part about it being just the 2nd draft ever probably factored into things as well. College baseball at the time was a lesser deal than it is today and I suspect there was more of a thought that the REAL good players were found in HS where you could get them early and mold them properly. Had that choice happened a bit later on I think more of the insider opinion would have swung towards Jackson as both the safer pick and one much more likely to contribute than a HS catcher. Of course the Twins were told the same thing years later when they were accused of being both cheap and overly pr-conscious when they opted for the local kid Mauer rather than the "correct" #1 overall choice of Mark Prior.

G-Fafif Oct 08 2013 10:24 AM Re: Race and Reggie

The Mets had defied convention enough from 1962 to 1965 that "surprising" was probably the default setting for anything remotely unusual that happened around them. Note Murakami's music. Eat it, Rivera.

Zvon Oct 08 2013 10:25 AM Re: Race and Reggie

If we got Reggie then we never would have gotten Rusty and I don't want to live in a Met world without Rusty Staub.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 08 2013 10:28 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Zvon wrote: If we got Reggie then we never would have gotten Rusty and I don't want to live in a Met world without Rusty Staub. I think an honest analysis would suggest the Rusty Staub trade wasn't a very good one.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2013 10:32 AM Re: Race and Reggie

I remember reading a magazine article from 1969 featuring Reggie Jackson. 1969 was Reggie's breakout superstar season. Reggie seemed very humble with his relatively new fame and wanted to deflect the attention he was attracting towards Cleon Jones, who, said Reggie, was baseball's real new black superstar.

G-Fafif Oct 08 2013 10:32 AM Re: Race and Reggie

As Murakami, with a spring in his gait and a wad of chewing gum in his mouth, strode toward the Giant dugout, Met fans stood up and cheered. Organist Jane Jarvis got into the swing of things, playing "The Japanese Sandman". [youtube]tef8RQF3XTU[/youtube]

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2013 10:33 AM Re: Race and Reggie

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Zvon wrote: If we got Reggie then we never would have gotten Rusty and I don't want to live in a Met world without Rusty Staub. I think an honest analysis would suggest the Rusty Staub trade wasn't a very good one. I wouldn't have minded an outfield of Reggie, Singleton and perhaps Otis. Who would complain about that?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 08 2013 10:41 AM Re: Race and Reggie

That Murikami appearance was pretty crazy. Controversy eventually arose as to who "owned" Murikami's rights, with his Japanese employers prevailing even though they could be shown to have been in the wrong, at least according to Robert Whiting. The bad blood around that kept Japanese ballplayers out of MLB for 30+ years.

G-Fafif Oct 08 2013 10:42 AM Re: Race and Reggie

From Dana Brand's The Last Days of Shea: It's been a deep, dark secret, but I've always liked Reggie Jackson. I like ballplayers who are great and who get pleasure from the fact that they are great. We watched him come closer and then we saw him stop and look carefully at the big poster blow-up of the cover of my book that I had set up in front of me. "Mets Fan," he proclaimed. He looked at us. "You folks are Mets fans?" He stared at us and then asked, with a perfect sense of timing and emphasis, "WHAT HAPPENED?" We laughed as his entourage waited patiently for him to have the moment he had chosen to address people he didn't need to address. We scrambled in our minds for something to say to him in response. But we didn't need to do this. He had something to say and he wanted to say it. "What was it, they only needed to win one more game?" "Something like that," we ruefully mumbled. "You know," he said as if he was giving us the benefit of hard-earned wisdom, "people used to call me egotistical, but I will tell you, if I had been playing for them, I would have won that one game, even if I had to do it all by myself."

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2013 10:46 AM Re: Race and Reggie

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2013 10:50 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Confession: I loved Reggie Bars.

G-Fafif Oct 08 2013 10:57 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Confession: I loved Reggie Bars. They were quite tasty, which annoyed the Met-lovin' crap out of me. Gave me a surge of tooth pain once, which I decided served me right.

G-Fafif Oct 08 2013 10:58 AM Re: Race and Reggie

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Never saw those East Meets West cards. Are those f'reals or an online mashup? Either way, nice job. Though it does remind me those BP caps with the skyline logo on the side were just giving up.

Mets Guy in Michigan Oct 08 2013 11:21 AM Re: Race and Reggie

I think the part where he called Reggie "classy" exposes the original writer of being clueless -- or it was ghostwritten by Reggie. Think of the top 1,000 adjectives to describe Reggie, and "classy" never makes my list. Heck, I'm making up words before I get to classy.

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2013 11:30 AM Re: Race and Reggie

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I remember reading a magazine article from 1969 featuring Reggie Jackson. 1969 was Reggie's breakout superstar season. Reggie seemed very humble with his relatively new fame and wanted to deflect the attention he was attracting towards Cleon Jones, who, said Reggie, was baseball's real new black superstar. False humility has long been one of Reggie's go-to moves. Maybe back then there was some actual humility in whatever he was saying, although I tend to doubt it.

Mets Guy in Michigan Oct 08 2013 11:37 AM Re: Race and Reggie

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Zvon wrote: If we got Reggie then we never would have gotten Rusty and I don't want to live in a Met world without Rusty Staub. I think an honest analysis would suggest the Rusty Staub trade wasn't a very good one. Mickey Lolich was done, and didn't want to be here.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 08 2013 11:39 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Both directions.

dinosaur jesus Oct 08 2013 11:43 AM Re: Race and Reggie

From Dana Brand's The Last Days of Shea: "You know," he said as if he was giving us the benefit of hard-earned wisdom, "people used to call me egotistical, but I will tell you, if I had been playing for them, I would have won that one game, even if I had to do it all by myself." Like he did in this game? http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 0280.shtml Or this one? http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 0100.shtml Or these? (A game and half out with eight to play, four games against the division leaders, and Reggie goes 1 for 16 with two runs scored.) http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 9241.shtml http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 9242.shtml http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 9250.shtml http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 9260.shtml Or these? (Tied with six games to play, four games against the co-division leaders, and Reggie goes 0 for 8 with no runs or rbis.) http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 9300.shtml http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 0010.shtml http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 0020.shtml http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 0030.shtml Or this one? http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes ... 0120.shtml I'm cherry-picking, obviously. These are all from late in his career. But he has to know he's talking bullshit, right?

G-Fafif Oct 08 2013 11:49 AM Re: Race and Reggie

dinosaur jesus wrote: These are all from late in his career. But he has to know he's talking bullshit, right? Reggie was 61 when he said he would've that one game by himself. By then, his latter-day failures had never occurred.

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2013 12:59 PM Re: Race and Reggie

I'm cherry-picking, obviously. But no more so than those who cherry-pick good outings and cite those as proof of Reggie's magical abilities in crucial spots. Or of Jeter's (just to pick one name off the top of my head)

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2013 01:54 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Never saw those East Meets West cards. Are those f'reals or an online mashup? Either way, nice job. Though it does remind me those BP caps with the skyline logo on the side were just giving up. They're real Topps cards --- 2002's. http://www.comc.com/Cards,so,=murakami+east

batmagadanleadoff Oct 08 2013 01:58 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Frayed Knot wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I remember reading a magazine article from 1969 featuring Reggie Jackson. 1969 was Reggie's breakout superstar season. Reggie seemed very humble with his relatively new fame and wanted to deflect the attention he was attracting towards Cleon Jones, who, said Reggie, was baseball's real new black superstar. False humility has long been one of Reggie's go-to moves. Maybe back then there was some actual humility in whatever he was saying, although I tend to doubt it. Or maybe Reggie really did have a thing for the Mets of his early-stage MLB career.

Frayed Knot Oct 08 2013 02:52 PM Re: Race and Reggie

Maybe he did have a thing for the Mets - even though there was that piece in his earlier auto-biography about him swearing to root against them forever on account of the draft day 'snub'. And then the excepts from this book have him pining for a Dodgers uniform, and then somebody else's uniform (always teams that happened to be at or near the top at the time). So we're left with deciding whether to believe that he truly wanted to be apart of the blue and orange (despite earlier claims) or that he's engaging in opportunistic bullshit that just happens to place himself at the center of the action. Tough choice but I'm going with option B

Edgy MD Oct 08 2013 02:58 PM Re: Race and Reggie

He played for two of the great dynasties of his lifetime. He was on five world champs which is about five more than most players get to be a part of, so he could not have had a more professionally rewarding career. What he's going for is the love and adulation of everybody. He's a romantic celebrity in a mid-century woman's magazine talking about what he looks for in a woman --- or a Tiger Beat teen idol talking about his ideal girlfriend --- vaguely describing a woman/girl not all that different from the reader. Swoon!

dinosaur jesus Oct 08 2013 03:55 PM Re: Race and Reggie

"Let me tell you a story about a ballplayer I knew who used to buzz off five, six, seven times a day. And his teammates, they made fun of him, they razzed him all the time. And he was ashamed, and it was affecting all aspects of his game. He had trouble throwing, fielding, hitting with power, running the base. And then one day he just accepted the fact that he was a chronic buzzoff. And once he accepted that fact, he became a great ballplayer, and he went on to hit three home runs in the last game of the 1977 World Series!"

Frayed Knot Oct 28 2013 10:09 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Reggie's been making various media stops to promote this book. While on HBO's 'Real Sports' he told host-interviewer Bryant Gumbel about how he won't deal with ESPN because he didn't like the way he was portrayed in their in-house production of 'The Bronx is Burning' The following day he was on ESPN's 'Mike & Mike'

Fman99 Oct 28 2013 10:28 AM Re: Race and Reggie

I could totally beat Reggie in a race.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 28 2013 10:30 AM Re: Race and Reggie

Yes, but if you met him, could you praise him before he starts to feel neglected? Bet you couldn't, Running Fella.