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Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Mex17
Nov 08 2013 06:26 PM

Might be the best pure power bat out there.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/baseba ... ly-to-leav

smg58
Nov 08 2013 06:54 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

His home park makes that tough to gauge. I also think he overadjusted to his park to the point of diminishing returns. That being said, he could still be a nice asset for the right price. I'd go 3 and 45, but I doubt that's enough.

Ashie62
Nov 08 2013 07:33 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

3 for 45 may not be grandiose enough..

5-80

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 08 2013 08:00 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

And at those prices... let's not talk about Curtis Granderson.

metirish
Nov 08 2013 08:05 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
And at those prices... let's not talk about Curtis Granderson.


This

RealityChuck
Nov 08 2013 08:40 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

At least we're not talking about the Melty Man. You never talk about the Melty Man.
[youtube:2hoyleqa]bs1zz4zZhdM[/youtube:2hoyleqa]

Zvon
Nov 08 2013 09:42 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
And at those prices... let's not talk about Curtis Granderson.

Ha. And it's not that I wouldn't like him on the team. Its just we all know the Mets won't be able to afford him. What's to talk about?

Mex17
Nov 09 2013 04:44 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Ashie62 wrote:
3 for 45 may not be grandiose enough..

5-80

Let's split the baby and say 4 for 60. I disagree that this is too rich for the Mets.

Let's assume that they have $40 million to spend (which is the high end of the estimates and what will bring them to their 2013 payroll). . .

$15 for Granderson
+
$8 for Peralta (assuming)
+
$10 for the "veteran innings eater for the rotation"
=
$33 million. That leaves an additional $7 million for Hawkins and a veteran backup catcher. Throw in this Ike for Aoki trade that Sherman said might be possible and you add in an additional $1.5 million. None of that is impossible.

Money notwithstanding, do you like Grandy in a corner spot? I would be hesitant to move the younger Lagares out of CF just to accomodate an older (and probably less athletic at this point. . .albeit not completely broken down) veteran who just expects to go into the position he has always played. What are the challenges for a centerfielder by trade moving into one of the corners?

Frayed Knot
Nov 09 2013 06:30 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

smg58 wrote:
His home park makes [his power] tough to gauge. I also think he overadjusted to his park to the point of diminishing returns.


This is my fear too.
In his younger/Detroit years he had a decent BA even though inept vs LHP, and was cutting down (somewhat) on his Ks as he aged after leading the league in his first full season.
He then openly changed to a pull-happy approach in order to take advantage of the LL porch when he went to YSIII and the result was a jump to league-leading type of power (250 IsoP) but a K-rate which started to climb again plus a drop in BA & OBA despite vastly improved numbers vs LHPs.

I'd hate to think of a guy trying to re-re-adjust at the age of 33 and who knows what the result would be if he did. If the Ks stay high (which they will - it's just a matter of high or REALLY high) but the BA & OBA remain only ordinary (.245/.345 w/Yanx and .231/.319 in 2012-13) while the 40 HRs/yr drops to more like 20 due to CitiField/aging/changed approach, his value is likely to fall well short of where the price tag will probably land. And he's not going to play CF here so you've got these declining skills for an aging guy with decent but not great defense at a corner OF spot.

Mex17
Nov 09 2013 06:57 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Combined road splits for 2011 and 2012 (last two healthy seasons). . .

614 ABs
23 doubles
37 homers
107 RBI
.833 OPS
187 K's

Cannot really provide a link since I had to do the addition myself, but you can do the same using ESPN or Baseball Reference.

Edgy MD
Nov 09 2013 07:51 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

It's probably not about affording. The Mets are likely to go big on somebody. But do you really want it to be this guy?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 09 2013 09:10 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

In the Daily News, Andy Martino suggests that the Mets have been talking about Granderson:

It is too far early to predict with confidence where Curtis Granderson will play next year, but when it comes to New York, this much is fair to say: He is more likely to be a Met than a Yankee in 2014.

The free agent outfielder is set to cut all ties with his most recent team by Monday, the deadline to accept or decline qualifying offers. Granderson is likely, though not yet certain, to forego the chance to return to the Yanks on a one-year, $14.1 million deal. Multiple major league executives predict that Granderson will receive a multi-year contract on the open market.

Two people familiar with the Mets’ thinking said that the team has expressed preliminary interest in Granderson, but that their level of seriousness will depend on how the market develops.

A quick primer on “preliminary interest” in early November: Teams cast a wide net at this stage of the offseason, discuss many players internally, and reach out to scores of agents. The names tossed around are not names that will necessarily end up playing for those teams next season.

But the rhetoric about Granderson around the Mets is different from, say, the tone regarding Robinson Cano and Jacoby Ellsbury. The latter players are easy “no thank yous,” seen by the Mets as players seeking irrational contracts. Granderson, by contrast, is on their early list of outfielders to consider.

Compare the soon-to-be 33-year-old to another possibility for Queens, Dodgers outfielder Andre Ethier. Both are much stronger against righthanded pitching. Both are versatile defensively, able to play centerfield or a corner position. Ethier would cost the Mets in both salary and prospects, while Granderson will cost the team in salary, and the second-round pick they would lose by signing a player who declined the qualifying offer.

Granderson also hit more than 40 home runs per season in 2011 and 2012, before a pair of freak hit-by-pitches left him able to play in just 61 games in his walk year. As a lefty batter, he certainly benefitted from Yankee Stadium, but not as much as some perceive; as Fox Sports’ Ken Rosenthal noted this week, Granderson hit 47 home runs at home during those recent healthy seasons, and 37 on the road, a fairly equitable split.

The Mets will have competition for Granderson. He has already been connected to the White Sox and Cubs, and in a market that offers little power, the veteran will be in demand. The complaints about Granderson are obvious -- his batting average and on-base-percentage could be higher, his strikeouts could be lower, his defense isn’t what it once was. But he hits homers, and there aren’t as many of those going around nowadays.


I'd hate to sign a soon-to-be-33 player coming off an injured season for more than three years, but I suspect that he'll be able to get four years or even five from somebody. I don't expect that Granderson will be a Met, but I guess it is a possibility.

Ceetar
Nov 09 2013 09:22 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Edgy MD wrote:
It's probably not about affording. The Mets are likely to go big on somebody. But do you really want it to be this guy?


I don't know. I think they need to go big on someone, after only going for the "right deals" in the past and often missing out, but I'm not sure about Curtis. Particularly directly from the Yankees. Can we just pretend he was injured the last couple of years and is coming from the Tigers 100% healthy?

On the other hand, I have no problem with them considering and maybe driving up the price for the Yankees.

Looking at the numbers, he missed parts of last season and the year before was bad despite the extra home runs. Does that warrant a discount? Going into his age 33 season..

He's a high strikeout guy, but that's not horrible. He's fast and is good on defense. I think he might from a skills standpoint be a good fit though. Perhaps Hudgens gets him to be a little more 'wait for your pitch' and he takes a few more walks to make up for the HRs he'll lose. Mets maximized baserunning value and his speed gives him more value to maximize..

If the Mets do choose to carry no-bat-at-this-time Lagares, you could probably play Duda's bat in LF to make up for it, knowing that the other two CF will take away some of the ground he needs to cover.

And this is mostly worthless, but I think he's a pretty good guy too.

Frayed Knot
Nov 09 2013 10:11 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

... Granderson hit 47 home runs at home during those recent healthy seasons, and 37 on the road, a fairly equitable split.


Not sure I'd define 27% more at home v on road as "fairly equitable".
Then throw in the idea that CitiField might mean a 10% or so decline - meaning that 84 over two seasons (H=47 + R=37) turns into maybe 70 (H=33 + R=37) and that's even if there's not a decline due to age, injury, surrounding line-up, league change, sun spots, whatever.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 09 2013 10:37 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

This is grand. The media deliberates on whether it's sound for the team from NY that won't finish in first place next season, and probably won't even win half of its games to sign a 33 year outfielder that, despite his flaws, is aces over anyone else they have. And they probably can't afford him anyway.

Ashie62
Nov 09 2013 10:56 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Which team is that?

Mets Guy in Michigan
Nov 09 2013 11:13 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I think I've posted about my experiences with Granderson. He's a very classy guy.

In a nutshell: He was on a rehab assignment with the West Michigan Whitecaps. He saw there would be some downtime and told the team to find an inner-city school for him to visit. Went in there and spoke passionately about his parents being teachers, his going to college and the importance of the students staying in school, getting a diploma and living up to their potential.

I was impressed because he could have just stayed in his hotel room ordering room service and grumbling that he has to do a rehab assignment in the Midwest League.

That doesn't mean he's a great fit for the Mets. But if we do get him, he's a great guy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 09 2013 03:08 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I'd be all for a 1-year "make-good" type of deal but he's already got that on the table from the MFYs. He should probably take that.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 10 2013 07:50 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

... Granderson hit 47 home runs at home during those recent healthy seasons, and 37 on the road, a fairly equitable split.


Not sure I'd define 27% more at home v on road as "fairly equitable".
Then throw in the idea that CitiField might mean a 10% or so decline - meaning that 84 over two seasons (H=47 + R=37) turns into maybe 70 (H=33 + R=37) and that's even if there's not a decline due to age, injury, surrounding line-up, league change, sun spots, whatever.



From 2011-2013 Granderson hit 42 road HR's in 730 AB's. No current Met has hit as many road HR's as Granderson has over that period. Coincidentally, David Wright also has exactly 730 AB's from 2011-2013: Wright has 29 road HR's in that period. Rate-wise, Ike Davis's road HR pace is close to Grandy's (29 HR in 512 road AB's). Barring any other additions, Granderson would appear to be the Mets best HR hitter, Citi Field or no Citi Field. If the stadium is gonna reduce CG's home HR's, then it's probably already reducing the home HR rates of some current Mets. And to the extent HR's at Citi Field are scarce, that just makes 'em more valuable anyway.

So should the Mets sign The Grandy Man? Beats me. If the goal is a shortsighted one to win as many games as possible next season at any cost, then yeah ... why not? Just sign the best players out there. If the main goal is to sign a player that'll make significant contributions to a pennant contending team, then I'd pass. CG turns 34 next year, and the Mets are probably at least another year or two from serious contention. Grandy'll probably suck by the time the Mets are ready for prime time. This post naturally assumes that the Mets can afford CG. Not that they'd ever admit to not being able to afford him if they don't sign him. They've got an unlimited number of plausible deniablilty excuses for not signing CG or any other free agent. And those excuses might even be true. But how would we know?

Frayed Knot
Nov 10 2013 08:28 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Not sure what your point is here.
Mine was that the Martino article cites Granderson's HR split as 47/37 H-v-R which it then describes as "fairly equitable" ... and that not only is that not the phrase that first comes to my mind when tagging a 27% difference but if CF becomes his home park rather than YSIII the home advantage might not just disappear it could well go somewhat the other way. And then there are the age/injury/league change factors to consider.

- Would a Granderson signing increase the Mets power? -- Sure
- Will it be a cost-wise move? -- I dunno, depends on what the cost is

MFS62
Nov 11 2013 07:04 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I look at him as the wrong guy for the right reasons.
The Mets need a power hitter, but I'm not sure his age, medical history and maybe the money he would be asking make him the player I'd go after.

Later

Lefty Specialist
Nov 11 2013 07:11 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Not the person you want to build around for the future. His biggest asset will be minimized by Citi. Pass.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 11 2013 09:34 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Frayed Knot wrote:
Not sure what your point is here.


Among other points, mainly that Grandy would be the Mets best HR hitter, based on the numbers.

Of course, he'll be 34 next season and is coming off an injury that cost him more than half of 2013. George Foster and Jason Bay also came to the Mets as not only their best HR hitter, but as one of the best HR hitters in all of baseball.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 11 2013 09:39 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Carlos Delgado was 34 in his first year as a Met, and he worked out very well.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 11 2013 09:58 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

He was on steroids of course.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 11 2013 10:53 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Yeah, I guess I overlooked that.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 13 2013 08:50 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man



Mets' interest in Curtis Granderson is growing
The Mets desperately need power at the corner outfield spots, and with Marlon Byrd coming off the board at two years, $16 million to the Phillies Tuesday, the market is shaping up to be limited.
Comments (8)
By Kristie Ackert / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

ORLANDO — Who can make the sun shine at Citi Field? The Grandy Man can.

That seems to be what the Mets believe, as a team source told the Daily News Tuesday that the club is growing more and more intrigued with outfielder Curtis Granderson, who turned down a one-year, $14.1 million qualifying offer from the Yankees on Monday.

The Mets desperately need power at the corner outfield spots, and with Marlon Byrd coming off the board at two years, $16 million to the Phillies Tuesday, the market is shaping up to be limited.

“Given what we have seen so far, I wasn’t surprised,” Mets general manager Sandy Alderson said about the Byrd deal. “Had you asked me the question three or four months ago, I might have been surprised, but not in light of what’s happened since the end of the season. There haven’t been that many signings. This one is consistent with the others, I think.”

After the second day of the GM meetings here, Alderson also confirmed that the Mets intend to meet with Scott Boras before Thursday. Boras, of course, represents the two top outfielders on the free agent market: Shin-Soo Choo and Jacoby Ellsbury. Granderson’s agent, Matt Brown, is not here this week, Alderson said, so no meeting is expected anytime soon.

Since the Mets have about $30 million to spend this offseason and have many holes to fill, Choo and Ellsbury, who are expected to get mega-contracts, are not seen as likely fits. Boras also represents Stephen Drew, a shortstop who could take care of another Met need.

As The News reported Monday, bringing Byrd back was not a priority for the Mets. Byrd, 36, had a resurgent year with the Mets, one of the few teams willing to give him a chance after he served a 50-game suspension for violating baseball’s joint drug program in 2012. Byrd, who signed for $700,000 last season, hit .285 with a career-high 71 RBI for the Mets before being traded to the Pirates in late August.

Alderson may be looking for another bargain. Saying that the slow start to the offseason is playing out as expected, he is evaluating a competitive and fluctuating market.

“We might bring in more than two starting outfielders. Who knows how things are gonna break? I’d be surprised if that happens, (with) so much interest in corner outfielders among other clubs,” Alderson said. “I’d be surprised if we were that successful, because of the demand at the position.”

Alderson made it clear the Mets could live with Eric Young Jr., who led the National League in stolen bases last season, in left field. There is also some thought within the organization that Young could move back to his natural position at second base if the Mets were to deal Daniel Murphy.

“Eric is gonna be a part of our team. What his exact role might be will depend on our final roster,” Alderson said. “It depends a little bit on how things go in spring training. I expect he will be a valuable part of the team.”

Alderson again labeled shortstop a priority, but played down the need for a veteran catcher. Despite an initial wish list that included a durable veteran backstop who could play every day in case Travis d’Arnaud suffers yet another injury, Alderson said Anthony Recker can do the job. “Ultimately, if we have to go with Recker and d’Arnaud, it would be nice to have somebody else available to us,” Alderson said. “(Juan) Centeno is the only other catcher we have under contract at the Triple-A level, so we’d like to have somebody else, but it’s not a high priority.”



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.1515001

Edgy MD
Nov 13 2013 10:29 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Rubicon is running with the Mets interest in Granderson being overstated.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 13 2013 11:08 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

The Daily News had something this morning (can't find it online) saying that according to hittrackeronline, all but nine of Granderson's last 91 homers would have gone out of Citi Field.

And of course, if Granderson was a Met, only half of his games would have been played at Citi, so if the numbers are accurate, Citi Field would only have cost him about 4 per cent of his home runs.

Ceetar
Nov 13 2013 11:35 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
The Daily News had something this morning (can't find it online) saying that according to hittrackeronline, all but nine of Granderson's last 91 homers would have gone out of Citi Field.

And of course, if Granderson was a Met, only half of his games would have been played at Citi, so if the numbers are accurate, Citi Field would only have cost him about 4 per cent of his home runs.



well, would be different road parks too. And you can never really account for the wind differences (never mind the pitcher differences) in these comparisons. But I do believe that Granderson's power wouldn't suddenly vanish in Citi Field. I'm warming to the idea of Curtis more and more.

Vic Sage
Nov 13 2013 11:42 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

it's just money, and it's not mine. if you're as flush as you say, Freddie, then sign him.

metirish
Nov 13 2013 11:46 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Numbers and $$ aside, did he attain true Yankee status?

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 13 2013 11:46 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Vic Sage wrote:
it's just money, and it's not mine. if you're as flush as you say, Freddie, then sign him.


Agree. Besides, Granderson should be a huge upgrade over any other current Mets outfielder, barring a significant decline. He'd be their best outfielder, and best home run hitter. I still doubt the Mets'll win half their games next year but that probably won't be Granderson's fault.

Ashie62
Nov 13 2013 11:55 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

metirish wrote:
Numbers and $$ aside, did he attain true Yankee status?


Nah.. we're safe...

Mex17
Nov 16 2013 02:46 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

This is worth noting, and encouraging. . .

https://twitter.com/TheNotoriousT0m/sta ... 48/photo/1

I think that it is also worth stating that not every "lost" home run would necessarily translate into a flyout. What about them (or at least a portion of them) becoming doubles/triples that are either off the wall or in the gap where the defenders cannot get to them in time?

Frayed Knot
Nov 16 2013 04:06 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

The question about Granderson is whether he can re-adjust his approach and return to being more of the Reyes-like gap hitter w/speed and .360-ish OBA that he was during his peak years in Detroit prior to quite intentionally changing to a more pull-happy mode when he started playing half his games in YSIII that dropped his BA nearly 30 points ... and whether he can do all that starting at age 33.

Zvon
Nov 16 2013 04:33 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Vic Sage wrote:
it's just money, and it's not mine. if you're as flush as you say, Freddie, then sign him.

I agree with this but also want them to spend as wisely as ever. Grandy would not be an unwise move. If they can pull him in, sure, yea, go for it. Gimme something to watch next season.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 16 2013 04:51 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

The thing that seems to be lost on those having the what-the-last-three-year's-home-runs-would-have-been analysis-type discussions is that the Mets would not be paying for the last three years, but the next 3-4, pricier and well after the onset of his decline phase.

Granderson of the last three years would be a massive upgrade for the Met outfield. Granderson of the next half-decade will likely have more of a familiar, poutine-and-Pearl-Jam-and-concussions kind of smell to it.

Mex17
Nov 17 2013 08:45 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Another advantage to signing Granderson is that, by taking the prime lefthanded power bat off of the market, you then increase the trade market for the two lefthanded power bats that you are shopping around yourself.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 02 2013 07:14 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Reports say Granderson and Alderson met with each other yesterday.

MFS62
Dec 04 2013 07:54 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Matthew Cerrone ? @ matthewcerrone
@ Mets & Granderson see eye-to-eye on a 3-yr deal, but he's still looking to find a team willing to give to go to four.

Later

Vic Sage
Dec 04 2013 08:36 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I'd be ok with 3 years for Grandy. but yes, they should let him go to any team that offers 4. He's already in decline, and while he'll be useful for a few more years, after that he will be a destabilizing burden for a small-market team like the Mets.

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2013 08:44 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

That kind of runs against your "it's just money, and it's not mine" comment above, though.

If the per-year money's the same, would you go with Beltran for three or Granderson for four?

MFS62
Dec 04 2013 08:53 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

With the Ellsbury signing, there are going to be a lot of people whispering in Sandy's ear (press, fans) to get something done quickly. But I don't think he'll listen/ feel/ respond to any pressure.
You can always tell a Marine. You just can't tell him too much.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 04 2013 10:03 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Edgy MD wrote:
That kind of runs against your "it's just money, and it's not mine" comment above, though.

If the per-year money's the same, would you go with Beltran for three or Granderson for four?


Neither, for one?

Gun to head, I'm going Beltran for rational (I've got them about the same in terms of player value, Beltran's primary deficiency is buffered by the other defenders we'd have in the field with him) and irrational (c'mon) reasons.

Also... given the declining both have been going through, Beltran seems a little like the more stable bet at this point, more likely to stay what he has been over the last season or two, or a reasonable approximation thereof.

Frayed Knot
Dec 04 2013 10:43 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Granderson for four is a better idea than Beltran for three [as is Granderson x 3 > Beltran x 2]

I liked Beltran while he was here as much as anyone and more than many, but he's a full four years older with injuries that are slowing him down and not going away.
For all of Granderson's missed time last season, both stints were as the result of HBPs on the hand & wrist. Not that those are good things, but they are kind of flukey injuries and ones not likely to repeat (his HBPs/year have been in single digits all but one season).

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2013 10:55 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Yeah, while Beltran's bet is probably more reliable and less likely to degrade precipitously, his knee is a miracle of science and one quick jump away from exploding on him.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 04 2013 11:07 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Not to put too fine a point on it but I think Beltran actually wrote that "We are never ever getting back together" song and sold it to Miley Cyrus or whoever sings it. There's just no way he comes back and I think very little chance we even ask about it. He just won't.

I guess Grandy at 3 is as good as we can do here. Of course someone will give him 5 probably.

Ceetar
Dec 04 2013 11:12 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it but I think Beltran actually wrote that "We are never ever getting back together" song and sold it to Miley Cyrus or whoever sings it. There's just no way he comes back and I think very little chance we even ask about it. He just won't.

I guess Grandy at 3 is as good as we can do here. Of course someone will give him 5 probably.


Beltran's been on record saying he'd come back to the Mets though.

The older player doesn't really fit with the Mets this/next year, but I'd love to see him here.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 04 2013 11:14 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I'd be okay with a fourth year for Granderson. It's not ideal, but it seems that you have to take a risk on the back end of a contract to land some free agents. Sometimes it kills you, but sometimes it doesn't. You just have to hope that the early years of the contract are good enough to offset the last year or so.

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2013 11:16 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

With regard to Beltran, I was just doing a thought experiment there. Wanted to use him to measure just how tough a risk that fourth year to Granderson was.

Vic Sage
Dec 04 2013 11:18 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Edgy MD wrote:
That kind of runs against your "it's just money, and it's not mine" comment above, though.

If the per-year money's the same, would you go with Beltran for three or Granderson for four?


Granderson; and the "it's just money" is based on my philosophy, not the Wilpons. So knowing that, paying Grandy $15m 4 years from now will cripple this team because, unlike the Yanks, they won't just eat it and move on. In the abstract, or in a universe where the Mets are operating as a big-market team that can survive its burdensome contracts, then yes, Granderson for 4.

Centerfield
Dec 04 2013 11:29 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Vic Sage wrote:
...or in a universe where the Mets are operating as a big-market team...


You should see how hot the chicks are in that universe. OMG.

dinosaur jesus
Dec 04 2013 12:11 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Please, no. He's just not that good. Certainly not anymore.

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2013 12:27 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

And frankly, he's just not that into you.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 04 2013 12:35 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Things are starting to get "intense".



Mets, Granderson are talking about deals ranging from 3 to 5 years

Former Yankees outfielder Curtis Granderson and the Mets are engaging in talks as the club tries to solve its outfield issues.

Word is the Mets are offering a three-year deal, with Granderson believed to be seeking five, at least at the start. A likely solution could be a four-year deal.

Granderson is likely seeking close to $17 million annually.

The Mets seem to prefer him, if only slightly, to Nelson Cruz for two reasons: 1) he's left-handed and could provide a batting-order complement to franchise player David Wright, and 2) he's a proven performer in New York.

The Mets, who previously signed Chris Young to a one-year, $7.25 million deal, would not have to surrender a No. 1 pick since they possess the 10th and final protected pick.

The Mets showed interest in Shin-Soo Choo but after saying they didn't see a $100 million player on the market after Robinson Cano, it woould appear their chances to sign Choo are close to nil, barring a change of heart. Mets general manager Sandy Alderson met with Granderson last week in San Diego.

The Mets met with Cano, but that is seen as a long-shot play. They could show interest if the price falls below $200 million, though, one person suggested.

Granderson led the majors by hitting 84 home runs between 2011-12 but was derailed last season by two pitches that hit him, finishing with only seven homers and a .229 batting average. Adam Rubin of ESPNNew York suggested talks were "intensifying."

metirish
Dec 04 2013 12:41 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

2) he's a proven performer in New York.


Ugh .....useless "stat"

dinosaur jesus
Dec 04 2013 01:04 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 04 2013 01:05 PM

Edgy MD wrote:
And frankly, he's just not that into you.


We had some good times, me and Curtis. But it's time to move on.

I don't even want to talk about me and Carlos.

Zvon
Dec 04 2013 01:33 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

If the Mets are going to make a splash this off season they better go for it while there are still some big fish in the pool.

Ashie62
Dec 04 2013 02:01 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Red Sox may pursue Granderson per Crasnick ESPN

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 04 2013 02:12 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

metirish wrote:
2) he's a proven performer in New York.


Ugh .....useless "stat"


There are photographs and ticket stubs and scorecards, man.

Of course, he's also a proven bed-shitter in New York.

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I'd be okay with a fourth year for Granderson. It's not ideal, but it seems that you have to take a risk on the back end of a contract to land some free agents. Sometimes it kills you, but sometimes it doesn't. You just have to hope that the early years of the contract are good enough to offset the last year or so.


But, see, that makes sense if you're not just hoping but planning to contend over the course of those first two years. Whatever Granderson contributes-- assuming it's not a highly-degraded version of what he's contributed over the last 2-3 years-- probably won't be the difference between a playoff spot and no playoff spot. And that makes eating that smelly, smelly back end so much more repugnant.

Ashie62
Dec 04 2013 02:31 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
metirish wrote:
2) he's a proven performer in New York.


Ugh .....useless "stat"


There are photographs and ticket stubs and scorecards, man.

Of course, he's also a proven bed-shitter in New York.

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I'd be okay with a fourth year for Granderson. It's not ideal, but it seems that you have to take a risk on the back end of a contract to land some free agents. Sometimes it kills you, but sometimes it doesn't. You just have to hope that the early years of the contract are good enough to offset the last year or so.


But, see, that makes sense if you're not just hoping but planning to contend over the course of those first two years. Whatever Granderson contributes-- assuming it's not a highly-degraded version of what he's contributed over the last 2-3 years-- probably won't be the difference between a playoff spot and no playoff spot. And that makes eating that smelly, smelly back end so much more repugnant.


The dance chairs are filling..I suggest you get with the Granderson vibe..ok?? lol

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2013 02:35 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Sooner or later, they gots to lay their money down, though, right? Or else you won't invest because the chances you have suggest team isn't worth investing in. Which it isn't, because you won't invest.

So we return to the if-not-him-then-who? territory. But, well, impact free agents all tend to be old-but-expensive. High performance but high mileage. Cano's the young one out there, and he's all about many many years.

One might assume there's a trade or two on the table too. So if Granderson is the big fish they reel in, it could well be part of some broader array of (hopefully improvement-generating) moves.

A big key to looking at the fourth year is that his injuries have not been of the breakdown-from-continual-usage variety.

On the other hand, the dance chair thing doesn't move me.

Ceetar
Dec 04 2013 02:43 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I'm not necessarily petrified of Granderson's age 36th season if we did give him that 4th year.

Ashie62
Dec 04 2013 04:03 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Granderson sid he enjoyed the salmon at lunch...

Ashie62
Dec 04 2013 04:04 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Edgy MD wrote:
Sooner or later, they gots to lay their money down, though, right? Or else you won't invest because the chances you have suggest team isn't worth investing in. Which it isn't, because you won't invest.

So we return to the if-not-him-then-who? territory. But, well, impact free agents all tend to be old-but-expensive. High performance but high mileage. Cano's the young one out there, and he's all about many many years.

One might assume there's a trade or two on the table too. So if Granderson is the big fish they reel in, it could well be part of some broader array of (hopefully improvement-generating) moves.

A big key to looking at the fourth year is that his injuries have not been of the breakdown-from-continual-usage variety.

On the other hand, the dance chair thing doesn't move me.



If Granderson comes aboard we can likely kiss Muffy goodbye...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 04 2013 04:27 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Huh? What? Huh?

Ashie62
Dec 04 2013 04:35 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Grandy in LF Lagares CF Young RF.....Young Jr. to 2b Muffy traded?

Frayed Knot
Dec 04 2013 05:06 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

If Murphy gets dealt (and he very well might) it'll be because he's the better trade bait and will bring back something to fill another hole; I don't see him being dealt simply to hand EY Jr. the 2B job.
For all of Murph's faults, he out-hit Young by 30 points and had a greater pct of hits go for XBs.

batmagadanleadoff
Dec 04 2013 05:34 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Like the Mets have anyone better than Granderson that can play the outfield. And if he should suck three years from now, what with him being 31 and all right now, maybe three years from now, the Mets can start acting like the big boy franchise from New York City that they're supposed to be, and just dump Granderson for the next big thing. They surely have no problem charging their fans about the highest ticket prices in the National League.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 04 2013 08:17 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I'll say this: he appears to be a real standup guy, charming and generous and thoughtful (he was one of the first players to regularly write/maintain a blog), and it would be a pleasure to be wrong about the presumed Bayishness of a multiyear/big AAV deal with him, should he come our way on one.

Nymr83
Dec 04 2013 09:48 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

You know who was a better, and younger, hitter than Granderson in the 3 years before the Mets overpaid him? Jason Bay. and that is what I think this contract would look like by year 3.

Frayed Knot
Dec 04 2013 10:02 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

So because Bay failed we're to assume that all future FA signings will follow the same path, or is there something in particular here that connects these two specific players?

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 04 2013 10:24 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Yeah, I'm sure Grandy on some level could disappoint but let's see some evidence he's about to, beyond the coincidence of having similar profile to Bay.

Frayed Knot
Dec 05 2013 07:09 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

The latest (acc to Martino at the Snooze):

- talks between NYM & Granderson have been "heating up" since late Tuesday and that there is "increasing optimism" that he will wind up in Queens

- that any deal would almost certainly have to include a 4th year at minimum as, first the Byrd contract (2 x $8), and then the Ellsbury one (7 x ~$22) have raised the stakes

- the outside competition seems to be coming from Seattle & Boston

MFS62
Dec 05 2013 07:17 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I see Boston being competitive in this now that they don't have to pay Ellsbury and need a center fielder.

Later

Frayed Knot
Dec 05 2013 07:42 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Boston has prospect Jackie Bradley Jr. tagged as their potential CF of the future so if they're signing Granderson is likely to be as a corner OF to pair with Victorino. This past season the opposite corner was handled by a combination of Daniel Nava, Jonny Gomes, & Mike Carp

Bradley was up for a brief time in 2013 to not-much success, but he's a 23 y/o former 1st round draft pick who's a glove and a speedster with little left to prove in the minors so I believe the job is pretty much his to lose going into ST.

Mets Guy in Michigan
Dec 05 2013 08:12 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I confess my only fear is this nagging wonder why the MFYs, apparently with more money than they can spend intelligently, didn't try to re-sign him.

metsmarathon
Dec 05 2013 08:35 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

because they liked ellsbury better perhaps...?

Edgy MD
Dec 05 2013 08:40 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Yeah, I mean, the obvious extension of that logic is to fall into "We shouldn't do this because if it was such a good idea, somebody else would have done it, so let's not do it or anything else."

It's not the only kind of defeatist logic going around, but it's maybe the most pernicious.

Mets Guy in Michigan
Dec 05 2013 09:07 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Edgy MD wrote:
Yeah, I mean, the obvious extension of that logic is to fall into "We shouldn't do this because if it was such a good idea, somebody else would have done it, so let's not do it or anything else."

It's not the only kind of defeatist logic going around, but it's maybe the most pernicious.


I never said we shouldn't do it. I think he's an outstanding player and an obvious upgrade from anyone in our outfield -- and probably any hitter on the roster not named Wright. A super-nice guy when I interviewed him.

I'm just wondering why the MFYs are willing to let him walk when they could obviously afford him. Don't they have people like Ichiro in their outfield?

metsmarathon
Dec 05 2013 09:11 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

they have ichiro and (a practically free) soriano in addition to the undervalued brett gardner.

bringing back granderson doesn't improve the team and weaken the sawx in one fell swoop. adding ellsbury does.

Edgy MD
Dec 05 2013 09:15 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I know you didn't say it. I'm extending the reasoning.

The reason they didn't make the move and the Mets might is because different teams have different needs, different standards and philosophies, and different assessments of different talent. And that's good. But teams have to believe in the judgment they have.

People make trades with the Yankees often enough. They can't stop and say, "Wait a minute. You're the Yankees. Why would you be offering me this player if he was any good? Why would I give up this other player if the MF Yankees want him?"

You simply got to believe that you're the smartest one in the room, even if recent or ancient history doesn't support that. Or at least believe you're the one who sees the angles on this particular issue that everybody else is missing.

dinosaur jesus
Dec 05 2013 09:32 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

The smartest person in the room doesn't sign Granderson.

Ceetar
Dec 05 2013 09:37 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

metsmarathon wrote:
they have ichiro and (a practically free) soriano in addition to the undervalued brett gardner.

bringing back granderson doesn't improve the team and weaken the sawx in one fell swoop. adding ellsbury does.


Yeah, but Granderson is the best OF of those, so really they're weaker. Maybe the Sox are hurt by losing Ellsbury, or maybe it's something they already planned for.

Maybe the Yankees are just banking on saving A-Rod's $20+ million. Maybe they're confident they can resign Cano, see that as the harder to lock down position, and didn't want to just re-sign everyone.

metsmarathon
Dec 05 2013 09:43 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

yes, of course, the yankees would be a better tem if they re-signed granderson and cano, and also signed ellsbury.

the issue is that the yankees thought themselves a better team signing ellsbury instead of re-signing granderson, and they are likely right, in th short term at least, and especially since yankee finances aren't remotely liek real-team finances (not that the mets have real-team finances)

i also think that in signing ellsbury, they are in a better position to tell cano's agents that their remaining money isn't limitless, so dont go asking for 300 mil that you're never going to get. getting ellsbury allows them to play harder with cano, whereas signing cano early and to an (even more) ridiculous contract could preclude them from getting in on ellsbury and weakening boston.

and believe me, weakening boston (both in the baseball sense and the PR sense) is a huge factor here.

Ceetar
Dec 05 2013 09:48 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

metsmarathon wrote:


and believe me, weakening boston (both in the baseball sense and the PR sense) is a huge factor here.


It's fair, but what if it means losing Cano? For a team bleeding fans, does losing your best player and signing a hated enemy bring those people back (well yeah, if they win I guess)

Edgy MD
Dec 05 2013 10:04 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

dinosaur jesus wrote:
The smartest person in the room doesn't sign Granderson.

What about for the right price at the right time in the right market? I mean, who did he kill?

There's always a time to say yes. There's always a time to say no.

I don't think Granderson is a hated enemy.

Frayed Knot
Dec 05 2013 10:10 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Boston made, at best, a weak effort to retain Ellsbury (see Reyes & Mets) and were pretty much resigned to seeing him go (see: Bradley, Jackie). That he wound up w/the Yanx certainly wasn't part of their plan but they don't really have any control over that except to over-pay him themselves which they clearly didn't want to do.
IOW, the Yanx' signing of Ellsbury didn't really subtract him from Boston as he was being subtracted one way or another. Plus the whole idea of signing someone so as to weaken your opponent is, in general, a really bad idea that harkens back to the days when George would go on the warpath.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 05 2013 10:22 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

And even if we decide to concede that the Yankees are the smartest team in the universe, and that Ellsbury is better than Granderson, well... Ellsbury is off the table. It's too late for the Mets to sign him. That doesn't mean that Granderson isn't the second best available outfielder in the universe.

Frayed Knot
Dec 05 2013 10:46 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

btw, the projected MFY starting OF for next season: Ellsbury, Suzuki & Gardner, [u:1s7n3gau]combined for[/u:1s7n3gau] 24 HRs last year and just 37 over the previous two seasons.
Part of that was due to injury-shortened seasons but that's still 37 HRs in over 2,500 combined ABs - and the plurality of both the ABs & HRs were from Ichiro who: a) just turned 40, and b) is most likely to lose playing time in those cases where they want to get power into the lineup via Soriano and/or Wells.

So much for the Bronx Bombers.

dinosaur jesus
Dec 05 2013 10:49 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Edgy MD wrote:
dinosaur jesus wrote:
The smartest person in the room doesn't sign Granderson.

What about for the right price at the right time in the right market? I mean, who did he kill?

There's always a time to say yes. There's always a time to say no.

I don't think Granderson is a hated enemy.


Well, yeah, for the right price. I'm just afraid the right price is way below what they're going to pay. I don't hate him, not at all. I just don't think he's that good a player. At this point in his career he's got one asset, home run power. Sure, he'd still be an upgrade. But is he really the best option out there? I'm not suggesting anyone else, I'm just asking.

Edgy MD
Dec 05 2013 10:54 AM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

I don't know if he's the best player out there (Cano is, probably), but somebody eventually is going to to decide he's the best risk for the money.

And let's keep in mind the Mets probably haven't gotten two consecutive season out of a rightfielder that can even be called "useful" since Darryl Strawberry.

Ashie62
Dec 05 2013 03:52 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

Everybody likes to buy their toys..

and apparently the Mariners may well have found theirs in Cano...

batmagadanleadoff
Dec 05 2013 08:10 PM
Re: Let's talk about The Grandy Man

How the hell do I know if the Mets should sign Granderson? If I had a crystal ball, the last thing I'd be doing is posting on this forum.