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Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Braun

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 20 2013 10:51 AM

Setting twitter aflame again. It kind of makes sense.

Edgy MD Nov 20 2013 11:03 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

It would be fun if the Mets tried to buy low on the whole lot of them --- Cruz, Braun, Peralta, Melky, FMart (and how low is buying low on FMart?), and Everth Cabrera. Roids? HGH? That's all in the past! Character issues? We're operating a halfway house, here! We're the BiogeneMets! Bring your angle bracelet on up to CitiField and help rebuild your reputation as you help the Mets win the pennant. Don't worry, with Braun here, you'll never be the biggest d-bag in our clubhouse!

Lefty Specialist Nov 20 2013 11:14 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Well, if the Wilpons are looking for character guys, there's no one better than the guy who cost a UPS guy his job with his lying about taking steroids. 'No' is such a wholly inadequate word.

Ceetar Nov 20 2013 11:16 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

gimme.

G-Fafif Nov 20 2013 11:17 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. I was just drawing Keith Hernandez 1983 unforeseen availability parallels in my head.

Edgy MD Nov 20 2013 11:23 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Lefty Specialist wrote: Well, if the Wilpons are looking for character guys, there's no one better than the guy who cost a UPS guy his job with his lying about taking steroids. 'No' is such a wholly inadequate word. Yeah, but that's the fun. Let it leak out that your wholly against douchebagels, depress the market on douchebagels, sign a bunch of douchebagels, declare that "Oh, I don't mean these douchebagels... these dbs are all redeemed!" Go to bank, cash championship check, give Satan a fist bump when you get back to your Lincoln Navigator." But yeah, Braun's the worst.

Gwreck Nov 20 2013 11:42 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Braun is signed through 2020 and is owed $127 million over that contract. The Mets are not acquiring him. This is dumber than the Tulowitzki nonsense that was circulating earlier.

Ceetar Nov 20 2013 11:45 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

He accumulated 2WAR last year. That'd be forth on the Mets offense... ...in only 60 games. He's got a very team friendly contract, is one of the best players in the game, and is only going into his age 30 season. If he's available, you want him.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 20 2013 11:48 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

6/127 is the deal? I'm thinking he has shamed all of the Midwest and the Broos kick in some $$ as a result. Wilpons know what its like to be taste-challenged repentant Jews, maybe this is a fit?

Gwreck Nov 20 2013 11:54 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

That's 7 years, not 6. And they're not giving him away free, either; I'm sure it would also cost premium prospects. I'm quite sure Braun's got plenty left in the tank but we're so obviously not getting him.

TransMonk Nov 20 2013 12:23 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

He's also not only a cheater, but also a proven liar...to his team and it's fans. So, there's that.

Ceetar Nov 20 2013 12:26 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

TransMonk wrote: He's also not only a cheater, but also a proven liar...to his team and it's fans. So, there's that. how many less hits is that?

HahnSolo Nov 20 2013 12:42 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Wilpons know what its like to be taste-challenged repentant Jews, maybe this is a fit? Ha ha.

metirish Nov 20 2013 12:45 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: He accumulated 2WAR last year. That'd be forth on the Mets offense... ...in only 60 games. He's got a very team friendly contract, is one of the best players in the game, and is only going into his age 30 season. If he's available, you want him. His accumulated a very high LIAR # last year too, he's a two time SOB but I won't CARE if he comes over...but he's not so.....FUCK

batmagadanleadoff Nov 20 2013 12:51 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

At the rate baseball salaries are rising, in a few years you won't be able to sign Mike Pelfrey for what Braun's now earning.

TransMonk Nov 20 2013 12:53 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: TransMonk wrote: He's also not only a cheater, but also a proven liar...to his team and it's fans. So, there's that. how many less hits is that? I don't care...I'd rather lose without him than win with him. Preferably, I'd like to win without him. I would have to question my fandom if he came to town and could definitely see taking some time off from the Mets.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 20 2013 12:56 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I wonder if Braun can hit like an MVP while off the stuff?

metirish Nov 20 2013 12:59 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

TransMonk wrote: TransMonk wrote: He's also not only a cheater, but also a proven liar...to his team and it's fans. So, there's that. how many less hits is that? I don't care...I'd rather lose without him than win with him. Preferably, I'd like to win without him. I would have to question my fandom if he came to town and could definitely see taking some time off from the Mets. Really?, wha about Nelly Cruz or Peralta?

Edgy MD Nov 20 2013 01:07 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

It's not too big a jump to see Braun as a whole 'nother level of miscreant. And Monk has had a front row seat in Wisconsin for his sideshow of backstabbing and corruption. Explicit victims too.

TransMonk Nov 20 2013 01:19 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Yeah, what Edgy said. It's not that he cheated. It's that he told the fan base very emphatically that he did NOT cheat...and the fans backed him 100%. He took his suspension last season and has never really explained himself to fans. I don't even remember an apology...although there may have been one. If there was, it wasn't nearly enough to make up for the level of disappointment. He is Milwaukee's David Wright. Imagine if Wright won an MVP, then tested positive for PEDs, held a press conference at the ballpark telling everyone he was innocent, got off on a technicality and then eventually took a suspension because he was going to be caught again. I am not surprised at the rumor that Milwaukee wants him gone and may be willing to eat some of his big contract in order to move him. I imagine that the Brewers aren't planning on being truly competitive next year and Braun would have been the reason that fans bought tickets anyway. But that all disappeared when he took the suspension. I can tell you that most Brewers fans I know will have no trust or admiration for him anymore...even if he does return to All-Star form once off the juice.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 20 2013 01:35 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I can see Sandy standing next to Braun at an introductory press conference. "Yes, we said we only wanted to add 'nice guys', but when an asshole as talented as Ryan Braun becomes available, you sometimes have to adjust your priorities."

Benjamin Grimm Nov 20 2013 01:58 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Report: Brewers could trade Ryan Braun to Mets Embattled outfielder could provide Mets elite offense at discount rate. By Ted Berg -- November 20, 2013 at 2:26pm EST Here’s a very juicy trade rumor, pardon the pun. According to MetsBlog.com’s Matthew Cerrone, citing "people familiar with the team’s thinking," "there is a better chance the Brewers trade OF Ryan Braun for Mets 1B Ike Davis than deal OF Norichika Aoki." There’s little doubt the Brewers are looking for first-base help after seeing the Major Leagues’ worst production at the position in 2013. And general manager Doug Melvin even acknowledged the Mets as a potential trade partner during the GM meetings last week. In Davis and Lucas Duda, the Mets have a pair of lefty-hitting first basemen with big power potential that have not yet managed to consistently hit at the Major League level. Davis endured prolonged slumps to start both the 2012 and 2013 season, but he’s a year younger than Duda, a better defender, and has a slightly better Major League resume, so he’s likely the more coveted trade piece. The Brewers, meanwhile, have a crowded outfield picture, with Braun, Aoki and Carlos Gomez standing in the way of 25-year-old Khris Davis (not to be confused with Orioles slugger Chris Davis), who flourished during Braun’s suspension late in the 2013 season. But no one anywhere near Milwaukee is likely to outproduce Braun anytime soon, regardless of Braun’s history with performance-enhancing drugs. The 30-year-old left fielder has been one of the very best hitters in the Majors since he was promoted in 2007. Unless you believe that all 211 of his homers in seven big-league seasons were entirely the product of illegal substances, it’d be silly to bet that he’ll be anything short of a great hitter for the foreseeable future. If the Brewers are eager to get a fresh start without the disgraced face of their franchise, Braun could present a tremendous opportunity for any club willing to overlook his indiscretions and pick him up at the nadir of his value. And under GM Sandy Alderson, the Mets have not shied away from players with PED stigma attached to them, including 2013 success story Marlon Byrd. Milwaukee owes Braun $113 million over the next seven seasons, which might give pause to the cost-conscious Mets. But Cerrone’s report suggests the Brewers would be willing to eat part of Braun’s salary, giving Alderson an opportunity to pick up an elite offensive performer to pair with David Wright at below market value. The amount of money the Brewers are willing to take on likely depends on how desperate they are to move on from Braun. But if it’s enough to get his salary down into a range that seems palatable to the Mets, it seems like there’d be another team willing to jump in with something better than Davis to offer. The Mets do have pitching prospects with which to sweeten the pot, though. The specifics will make the deal, of course. And Braun’s is a complicated case complicated further by his hefty contract. But on face, it looks like potentially a great way for the Mets to add the impact bat they covet without sacrificing a draft pick and overpaying for a free agent, and a way for the Brewers to move on from Braun and pick up a potentially useful young player in the process. Will all Mets fans be thrilled to see their team acquire a guy with a troubling history of not only using performance-enhancing drugs but also flatly lying about it? Of course not. But until the Mets can start throwing around money like they did in the early part of the last decade, the front office will need to be creative to find players of Braun’s ilk, and nothing comforts a conflicted fan quite like winning. This line makes a lot of sense: But if it’s enough to get his salary down into a range that seems palatable to the Mets, it seems like there’d be another team willing to jump in with something better than Davis to offer.

Ceetar Nov 20 2013 02:00 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

this one too The Mets do have pitching prospects with which to sweeten the pot, though.

Edgy MD Nov 20 2013 02:03 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

The if-he-was-any-good-another-team-would-want-him-more logic applies to everybody. Somehow, though, the Mets do find players --- some of them good, some of them affordable, and some small amount both.

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 20 2013 02:08 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

TransMonk wrote: He's also not only a cheater, but also a proven liar...to his team and it's fans. So, there's that. It's not like he's running for president. OK, so bad example. If we can get the Brewers to eat a bunch of his contract and if he can still mash, I'd be on board. The goal is to win, not win only with guys whom I'd invite over to watch "Field of Dreams" or babysit my kids. Raising the Apple a whole bunch of times goes a long way towards redemption.

Edgy MD Nov 20 2013 02:16 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

There's some legitimate disagreement as to whether there is a moral element to the goal. Else, there's always the Yankees.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 20 2013 02:24 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Edgy MD wrote: The if-he-was-any-good-another-team-would-want-him-more logic applies to everybody. Somehow, though, the Mets do find players --- some of them good, some of them affordable, and some small amount both. That's true enough. I guess my point was that it was unlikely that the Brewers would pay off a big chunk of Braun's contract just to get Ike Davis. But to your other point... The Mets, if I recall correctly, were considered very unlikely to be the ones to get Pedro Martinez. And Johan Santana. And Carlos Beltran. And Mike Piazza. And they were considered likely to get Juan Gonzalez. And Alex Rodriguez.

Frayed Knot Nov 20 2013 02:34 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

It's not that he cheated. It's that he told the fan base very emphatically that he did NOT cheat...and the fans backed him 100%. He took his suspension last season and has never really explained himself to fans. I don't even remember an apology...although there may have been one. If there was, it wasn't nearly enough to make up for the level of disappointment. As I recall the timeline: - at the first suspension he not only denied but promised explanations ... which never came - then after the getting off via the technicality he trashed the collector, implying personal prejudice along the way, and acted as if the whole thing vindicated him - he then got caught the very next year and agreed to a longer than dictated suspension (65 days vs 50) rather than allow the details to become more open by fighting it. IOW, a public airing wouldn't have made him look very good so why not take the entire year (Brewers weren't going anywhere anyway) rather than go through an awkward late-season return None of which means he should be shunned for life or anything. One would think this whole thing has made him at least a little bit humble and contrite and maybe a bit less douchy (although I wouldn't count on it) and his status probably subjects him to more frequent future testing. Certainly I wouldn't want the Mets to dismiss it all out of hand.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 20 2013 02:41 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

And even if the Brewers don't throw in any money at all, his contract averages to about $16 million per year the rest of the way. That's not by any means a low number, but it's also not super high by today's standards. And by the time that contract ends in 2020, there will probably be a lot of players making a lot more than that.

Zvon Nov 20 2013 02:44 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I dunno about Braun. That'd be one huge sideshow.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 20 2013 02:59 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Kinda like Josh Satin's eyebrows!

Frayed Knot Nov 20 2013 03:07 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

It's certainly an interesting topic from a Milwaukee point of view: He was the face of THEIR franchise, then lied to THEM, disappointed THEIR fans, and THEY get out from under a very large contract, even if it's one that the player's performance is still earning. Depending on how they feel about all that they could be running the gamut between slightly interested to wildly interested (or anywhere in between) in using this moment, now that the suspension has run out but before he suits up with them again, to cut ties.

TransMonk Nov 20 2013 03:18 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

metsguyinmichigan wrote: It's not like he's running for president. OK, so bad example. "Read my lips...No. New. Taxes.", "I did not have sexual relations with that woman", "We have evidence of weapons of mass destruction"...yes, historically bad example. *wink* metsguyinmichigan wrote: If we can get the Brewers to eat a bunch of his contract and if he can still mash, I'd be on board. The goal is to win, not win only with guys whom I'd invite over to watch "Field of Dreams" or babysit my kids. Nah, winning doesn't interest me if it's done with help from a guy who is going to knowingly lie to his fans (MILLIONS of people including children who idolize him as a role model). metsguyinmichigan wrote: Raising the Apple a whole bunch of times goes a long way towards redemption. Unless he comes out to say that he lied, he was wrong and that he will never put his fans in that position again, I'd have a hard time trusting him. There have been dirty players. There have been players who cheated and doped and used drugs. Players who have cheated on or abused their wives. There have been players that have let me down in so many other ways (many from the '86 team). But Braun publicly proclaimed himself innocent and asked his fans to stand by him. And the majority of them did...until he crept off to serve his suspension without any explanation. It may be easy to say, "Man, he duped all of those Brewer fans, but he sure is mashing for us," but I can't so that. He's got some explaining to do before I would ever root for him. This is not a decision I would make lightly. I can't imagine not rooting for the Mets. But I also can't imagine rooting for Braun. This is one slugger that I hope doesn't come to New York. It's certainly an interesting topic from a Milwaukee point of view: He was the face of THEIR franchise, then lied to THEM, disappointed THEIR fans, and THEY get out from under a very large contract, even if it's one that the player's performance is still earning. Depending on how they feel about all that they could be running the gamut between slightly interested to wildly interested (or anywhere in between) in using this moment, now that the suspension has run out but before he suits up with them again, to cut ties. I know a lot of Brewers fans that HATE Braun. Actually, I'd say the majority of them that I know do. Given the choice between watching a struggling team with Braun or watching a struggling team with the rookie OF Davis, I imagine most might lean towards Davis.

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 20 2013 03:44 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Unless he comes out to say that he lied, he was wrong and that he will never put his fans in that position again, I'd have a hard time trusting him. Hasn't he been calling season ticket holders and apologizing? And what are you trusting him to do? No way am I condoning what he did. But I don't know if that makes him a baseball leper, either. If you knew about half the stuff the 1986 team was doing off the field -- presuming the Pearlman book is accurate -- would you have still rooted for it?

TransMonk Nov 20 2013 04:20 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I've read the Pearlman book and it had some bad news. But I was 11 in 1986 and didn't know any better. Additionally, the antics of the '86ers were never aimed at me directly as a fan. He doesn't have to be a baseball leper, but I'd rather he joined the Yankees.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 20 2013 07:59 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

metsguyinmichigan wrote: Unless he comes out to say that he lied, he was wrong and that he will never put his fans in that position again, I'd have a hard time trusting him. Hasn't he been calling season ticket holders and apologizing? And what are you trusting him to do? Yes. Yes, he has. No way am I condoning what he did. But I don't know if that makes him a baseball leper, either. If you knew about half the stuff the 1986 team was doing off the field -- presuming the Pearlman book is accurate -- would you have still rooted for it? Fair point. Except, y'know, time doesn't work that way and all, do it? Really, though.. if he's contrite and hereafter clean, it's not that tough to reconcile, and, frankly, not a terrible story for the kids; it might even be a good entry point to discussions about fairness and forgiveness and lying/contrition. I mean, I'm not buying my daughter a shirt, but... if it's coming at an Ike-and-Montero-shaped price? Gimme gimme.

Fman99 Nov 21 2013 04:39 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Really, though.. if he's contrite and hereafter clean, it's not that tough to reconcile, and, frankly, not a terrible story for the kids; it might even be a good entry point to discussions about fairness and forgiveness and lying/contrition. I mean, I'm not buying my daughter a shirt, but... if it's coming at an Ike-and-Montero-shaped price? Gimme gimme. Yep. Though I'm prone to over-forgiveness for guys who hit a lot of home runs in a Mets jersey. Even those who might be, like myself, super snarky Jew douches.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2013 06:54 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

It's certainly an interesting topic from a Milwaukee point of view: He was the face of THEIR franchise, then lied to THEM, disappointed THEIR fans, and THEY get out from under a very large contract, even if it's one that the player's performance is still earning. Depending on how they feel about all that they could be running the gamut between slightly interested to wildly interested (or anywhere in between) in using this moment, now that the suspension has run out but before he suits up with them again, to cut ties. I know a lot of Brewers fans that HATE Braun. Actually, I'd say the majority of them that I know do. Given the choice between watching a struggling team with Braun or watching a struggling team with the rookie OF Davis, I imagine most might lean towards Davis. I was thinking more about how Brewer mgmt might feel about the whole deal - although certainly their reading of how the fans feel would be part of that. I heard a quote this morning while flipping the radio dial (although I don't recall the specific source) which said the Brewers would love to deal him 'just to get away from his ego'. No doubt that Braun has an ego over and above all the PED stuff; Tim Kurkjian tells the story about how Braun, as a 1st year player in the minors, was telling everyone within earshot that he could hit .300 in the majors "right now". I suspect it's the rare MLer who doesn't have an ego even though there are certainly differences is how they're displayed and I wouldn't have a tough time believing that Braun's is a bit more out there than most.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 07:08 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

well sure, half the knock on Lucas Duda is that he's not an egotistical maniac and therefore has "confidence issues"

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 21 2013 07:15 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Hmm. Hmm. Does anyone else smell a madcap, hijink-filled, ultimately-heartwarming body-switching playoff-race scramble?

MFS62 Nov 21 2013 07:23 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Fman99 wrote: Really, though.. if he's contrite and hereafter clean, it's not that tough to reconcile, and, frankly, not a terrible story for the kids; it might even be a good entry point to discussions about fairness and forgiveness and lying/contrition. I mean, I'm not buying my daughter a shirt, but... if it's coming at an Ike-and-Montero-shaped price? Gimme gimme. Yep. Though I'm prone to over-forgiveness for guys who hit a lot of home runs in a Mets jersey. Even those who might be, like myself, super snarky Jew douches. and Metsguyinmichigan: The goal is to win, not win only with guys whom I'd invite over to watch "Field of Dreams" or babysit my kids. But, before they were married, It would have been ok for him to date one of my daughters. Later

Benjamin Grimm Nov 21 2013 07:37 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Mike Puma, New York Post wrote: A club source discounted the idea of the Mets orchestrating a deal with the Brewers for former MVP Ryan Braun, who probably can use a change of scenery after lying about his involvement in the Biogenesis performance-enhancing drug scandal. The Brewers have interest in Ike Davis, but any package for Braun — who still is owed $113 million — likely would need to center around top pitching prospect Noah Syndergaard, whom Alderson has said is off limits.

Lefty Specialist Nov 21 2013 08:33 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

As far as Syndergaard goes, I'm sure hoping 'off-limits' really means 'off limits', not 'we're saying he's off-limits to drive up his eventual trade value'.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 08:46 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Lefty Specialist wrote: As far as Syndergaard goes, I'm sure hoping 'off-limits' really means 'off limits', not 'we're saying he's off-limits to drive up his eventual trade value'. I'd trade him for Braun in a heartbeat.

Lefty Specialist Nov 21 2013 09:20 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

The thing about all of this is that there's absolutely no real indication that Braun's even available. This is an article citing Matt Cerrone talking to 'people familiar with the team's thinking', which could be Bernie Brewer for all we know.

metirish Nov 21 2013 09:28 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

@Ken_Rosenthal #Brewers GM Doug Melvin: “Absolutely nothing” to talk of Braun to #Mets. “Our intentions are not to trade him.” Braun has partial no-trade. Cerrone then gets his nickers in a twist Matthew Cerrone ?@matthewcerrone 2h @Ken_Rosenthal who reported Braun was being traded to the Mets? I said Mets have talked about him. Is there a report saying more than that? Short Ken Ken Rosenthal ?@Ken_Rosenthal 2h @matthewcerrone Said “talk.” And there was talk yesterday after what you wrote. Cerrone being a bad sport Matthew Cerrone ?@matthewcerrone 2h @Ken_Rosenthal that's a shame. it would be nice if people read entire posts instead of just reacting to headlines. i'm sure you understand. Instigators Craig Petraglia ?@petrags99 2h @matthewcerrone @Ken_Rosenthal fight fight fight BobsBlitz.com ?@BobsBlitz 2h @matthewcerrone @AVSNY @Ken_Rosenthal Internet age...even 30 sec videos are too long..... [b[Short answer Ken Ken Rosenthal ?@Ken_Rosenthal 1h @matthewcerrone Yep. Contrite lickarse Cerrone Matthew Cerrone ?@matthewcerrone 52m @ken_rosenthal @petrags99 i'm thankful for ken, he's been great to me, an awesome reporter, i wouldn't fight with him for anything. taking the higher ground Ken Ken Rosenthal ?@Ken_Rosenthal 51m @matthewcerrone @petrags99 It is no fight at all. I thought it was important to get Brewers GM on record about possibility of trading Braun. https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/statu ... 4431588352

Vic Sage Nov 21 2013 10:24 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

i have no issue with signing a cheater who lied about cheating. There are known cheaters in the HOF... guys know to have threwn illegal pitches, used illegal bats, took illegal drugs (even PEDs like amphetamines), and baseball nodded and winked at that behavior, and still does. And when guys try to fool an ump into thinking a trapped ball is a catch, or a missed swipe is a tag, or lean into an inside pitch to take a HBP when the rules require them to get out of the way... this is called "gamesmanship" and most fans smile and hope that their guy gets away with it. Then `Roids comes along, and congressional hearings, and so suddenly MLB (having profited enormously from the drug use) pulls a Claude Rains/Inspector Renault routine and says "shocked! i'm shocked to learn about gambling in this establishment!" and the Player's Union says "here are your winnings, monsieur inspector," and then they start a witch hunt to distract from their own role as co-conspirators, which continues to this day. The notion that "well, there's cheating and then there's CHEATING!" is a double standard that serves MLB and nobody else. Now I would understand HOF voters considering this behavior if they were doing so with some consistency... how many guys did they exclude from the 60s and 70s who played loaded on greenies (and so the player had the energy to get out there and perform on a day where he might not have gotten out there at all), and did they vote for Gaylord Perry and Don Sutton (among others), and you know that Ty Cobb was a hideous human being even by the standards of his time. But there are no real enforceable criteria, so voters can choose to apply or not apply whatever standards they choose, and so Bonds and Clemens are out; Cobb, Sutton and Perry are in. Whatever, that's fine. But the HOF is a museum and should include all of baseball's history, not just the whitewashed bits. Yes, I understand the gambling thing, since that goes to the credibility of the contest and the survival of the sport, since without the prohibition baseball could have gone the way of professional wrestling as an "exhibition" rather than a sport. And i would also understand not wanting to have a guy convicted as a violent felon on my team's roster; rules of civilization trump MLB rules, and i would have a problem cheering for such a fellow even if his terrible off-field activities had nothing to do with baseball. But i'm sorry... trying to win so much that you look for a competitive edge, and then choosing to lie about it rather than deal with the hypocritical response to your actions from MLB, and the MLBPA and other players, and the public, is simply not in the same hemisphere as being a convicted rapist. Even the behavior of the `86 Mets, based on the Pearlman book, is more objectionable to me than 'roiding and lying about it. So not trading for an MVP in his prime because he took `roids when many in the sport were, and then lied about it in the media, seems misguided to me. If the price is right, Braun can bunk at my house, if no one else will have him. And i might even let him babysit my kids. Doc and Daryl, on the other hand...

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 10:27 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

It's kind of blowing it up to turn this into a Hall of Fame discussion, though.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 21 2013 10:33 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I agree with Vic. Also, I don't get the outrage over the fact that Braun then lied. In for a penny, in for a pound. What was he supposed to do? Take the steroids and then send the fans a secret note admitting that he's on steroids but that they should mums the word should Bud Selig and MLB suspect anything? Should Braun recieve more punishment because he fought the charges against him?

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 10:42 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Well, more than a few people, once caught, came clean, apologized to their fans and the team, and took their medicine. He lied to his friends, fans, teammates, and fellow players, and actively solicited them to put their own honor on the line to defend him. He claimed an anti-semitic conspiracy, and threw innocent civilians under the bus, damaging their lives, reputations, and careers. So, when you ask what was he supposed to do, well, not that.

TransMonk Nov 21 2013 10:55 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

batmagadanleadoff wrote: What was he supposed to do? Apologize and take his punishment like a man. It's simple really. [youtube]pHBDeZnlaP4[/youtube] He's a piece of shit.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 21 2013 11:11 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 21 2013 11:13 AM

I assume we're talking about the 2011 FedEx matter. Braun beat those charges, albeit on a technicality. Why should he then have admitted to breaking an MLB rule when MLB couldn't prove its case in the first place? He didn't fight the Biogenesis matter. What am I missing? TransMonk wrote: He's a piece of shit. You might be right. But I'd take him, nonetheless.

Lefty Specialist Nov 21 2013 11:13 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

You go the Melky Cabrera route. You admit wrongdoing immediately, apologize to your teammates and you take your punishment without whining even a little tiny bit. He could have fought his suspension but didn't. After his suspension was over, he was eligible to return for the postseason, the Giants said no, and he again accepted it and kept his mouth shut. If you're caught, don't act like an asshole. It's fairly simple.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 21 2013 11:15 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Lefty Specialist wrote: If you're caught, don't act like an asshole. It's fairly simple. But he beat the charges. His team came up with a viable defense and it stood up. Are all accuseds supposed to concede and roll over?

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 11:17 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Lefty Specialist wrote: You go the Melky Cabrera route. You admit wrongdoing immediately, apologize to your teammates and you take your punishment without whining even a little tiny bit. He could have fought his suspension but didn't. After his suspension was over, he was eligible to return for the postseason, the Giants said no, and he again accepted it and kept his mouth shut. If you're caught, don't act like an asshole. It's fairly simple. also, create a fake website and pretend you bought it there. The first one was more ridiculous, this biogenesis stuff is an arbitrary witch hunt. Braun took a suspension longer than he deserved until the rules for a failed test, which he doesn't have. Of course he should've fought it. going the anti-semite route was too far, but not fighting it. sure, he got off the same way you get off when you fight a speeding ticket and the cop doesn't show up to court, but in the end you don't have a speeding ticket, and Braun got his paycheck for 50games and no suspension on his record.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 21 2013 11:19 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Lefty Specialist wrote: You go the Melky Cabrera route. You admit wrongdoing immediately, apologize to your teammates and you take your punishment without whining even a little tiny bit. Who knows what Melky might've done if he though he had a plausible defense. As it was, didn't he consider faking a web-site? Criminal defense lawyers, for example, plea bargain based on the perceived weight of the evidence. It's the proof, not the facts.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 21 2013 11:28 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

The whole culture of doping is such that the robbers are always a few steps ahead of the cops. "Arbitrary witch hunts" on shaky evidence are one of the few techniques at MLB's disposal with the goal not of justice necessarily but to cripple the movement by making pariahs of users they can snare.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 11:42 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The whole culture of doping is such that the robbers are always a few steps ahead of the cops. "Arbitrary witch hunts" on shaky evidence are one of the few techniques at MLB's disposal with the goal not of justice necessarily but to cripple the movement by making pariahs of users they can snare. which is why it's a perception fight and one A-Rod and Braun should absolutely fight if they don't want to be the pariahs. They have rights too. but then the goal isn't actually to make the game clean but to look like they want to make the game clean.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 21 2013 11:48 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I disagree with that. If they only wanted the game to "look" clean they'd be like the NFL or NBA and pretend random testing is doing the job. If anything, baseball's pursuit of high-profile takedowns has had the effect of magnifying this idea there's a steroid issue unique to baseball.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 11:54 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I disagree with that. If they only wanted the game to "look" clean they'd be like the NFL or NBA and pretend random testing is doing the job. If anything, baseball's pursuit of high-profile takedowns has had the effect of magnifying this idea there's a steroid issue unique to baseball. Because the people, media, etc, care more about steroids in baseball. but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up. This is ONE doctor/clinic that got around that would provide good stuff. How many other clinics around the country do you think there are? (And if Jetes was such a good leader, wouldn't he make sure his teammates had the names of the 'secret' ones?)

TransMonk Nov 21 2013 11:57 AM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

"If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I'd be the first one to step up and say, 'I did it'." "I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life that this substance never entered my body at any point." It's fine if players want to argue their case within the rules that apply to the crime...but they shouldn't then say shit like this that is blatently not true. That's all I'm saying. He got off on a technicality the first time, but that's not the same as being innocent. He proclaimed innocence before he got off on that technicality.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 12:10 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

TransMonk wrote: "If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I'd be the first one to step up and say, 'I did it'." "I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life that this substance never entered my body at any point." It's fine if players want to argue their case within the rules that apply to the crime...but they shouldn't then say shit like this that is blatently not true. That's all I'm saying. He got off on a technicality the first time, but that's not the same as being innocent. He proclaimed innocence before he got off on that technicality. Everyone claims they're innocent when they're not. I mean, the only other option was to go full-on "no comment" and it's not like that really would've been received differently.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 21 2013 12:11 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I disagree with that. If they only wanted the game to "look" clean they'd be like the NFL or NBA and pretend random testing is doing the job. If anything, baseball's pursuit of high-profile takedowns has had the effect of magnifying this idea there's a steroid issue unique to baseball. Because the people, media, etc, care more about steroids in baseball. but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up. This is ONE doctor/clinic that got around that would provide good stuff. How many other clinics around the country do you think there are? (And if Jetes was such a good leader, wouldn't he make sure his teammates had the names of the 'secret' ones?) Arguing with the most cynical and least insightful person at the same time is hard work. I believe almost all jocks are filthy, and as stated above doping by its very nature is a crime that is always ahead of its policing. Again, if a big showy effort simply to create the appearance of police work is all they desire, why orchestrate it so sloppily that Joe Fan can so easily call their motives into question?

TransMonk Nov 21 2013 12:15 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: I mean, the only other option was to go full-on "no comment" and it's not like that really would've been received differently. Sports fans have been programmed to accept a no-comment has a half admission of guilt...I think you're wrong. It would have been received much differently. Anyway, I'm done arguing the point since it sounds like this rumor was just that. If you've decided you're OK with him on your team for whatever reason, then that's great for you...and theoretically Braun.

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 12:15 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: TransMonk wrote: "If I had done this intentionally or unintentionally, I'd be the first one to step up and say, 'I did it'." "I truly believe in my heart, and I would bet my life that this substance never entered my body at any point." It's fine if players want to argue their case within the rules that apply to the crime...but they shouldn't then say shit like this that is blatently not true. That's all I'm saying. He got off on a technicality the first time, but that's not the same as being innocent. He proclaimed innocence before he got off on that technicality. Everyone claims they're innocent when they're not. I mean, the only other option was to go full-on "no comment" and it's not like that really would've been received differently. This is plainly untrue. There are, again, plenty of players that, once they failed a test, copped to their use, came clean, apologized, and took their punishment. I'm unsure why you would asset this. Braun didn't do this. He, in fact, bet his life, among other ridiculous and nasty and damaging things. This means not only does Trans Monk get to ridicule him, he can actually legally take Braun's life if he is of a mind to.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2013 12:17 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 21 2013 12:24 PM

Ceetar wrote: ... but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up. I don't believe that they're arbitrarily going after 'big guys'. This biogenesis stuff landed in their lap courtesy of a small Miami newspaper and they're simply prosecuting the names who got caught up in it. Fernando Martinez got snagged in the net the same way ARod & Braun did. If the evidence against Rodriguez is truly lacking then I hope that comes out, although count me among those who don't tend to believe the angle that Selig & MFY mgmt concocted this whole thing out of personal hatred coupled with an attempt to reign in big salaries. Remember also that Selig et al have A TON to lose in credibility if they swing and miss on this. The fact that the other dozen or so guys took their punishment without a fight (including Braun who took a longer punishment despite showing the willingness to fight) suggests that evidence is there. Could you imagine the shit-storm if they opted NOT to pursue this?

Zvon Nov 21 2013 12:24 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Looks like the sideshow has already begun.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 21 2013 12:30 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: There are, again, plenty of players that, once they failed a test, copped to their use, came clean, apologized, and took their punishment. In Braun's case, there was a sloppy chain of evidence link. Braun capitalized on this chink in MLB's case to beat the charges. Other players presumably didn't have this defense available. Who can say how other players would have rseponded if they had Braun's defense. Every case is different. Nancy Grace drums up outrage because the alleged murderer then had the audacity to cover up the crime scene .... wipe his fingerprints from the murder site. Whatever.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 12:38 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: ... but arbitrarily going after the 'big guys' on possibly sketchy (or no) evidence is about putting forth an effort more than cleaning anything up. I don't believe that they're arbitrarily going after 'big guys'. This biogenesis stuff landed in their lap courtesy of a small Miami newspaper and they're simply prosecuting the names who got caught up in it. Fernando Martinez got snagged in the net the same way ARod & Braun did. If the evidence against Rodriguez is truly lacking then I hope that comes out, although count me among those who don't tend to believe the angle that Selig & MFY mgmt concocted this whole thing out of personal hatred coupled with an attempt to reign in big salaries. Remember also that Selig et al have A TON to lose in credibility if they swing and miss on this. The fact that the other dozen or so guys took their punishment without a fight (including Braun who took a longer punishment despite showing the willingness to fight) suggests that evidence is there. Could you imagine the shit-storm if they opted NOT to pursue this? oh, no I don't mean it's concocted or personal hatred or anything, I think there's just a lot of grandstanding going on. Yes, they're just prosecuting what sorta fell in their lap, but what they're doing with it is not simply "here's our evidence, you violated the rules, here's the fine as it's been collectively bargained" What they did to Braun and A-Rod is additional and focused. And we've seen no evidence or reason why they should get worse penalties than Fernando Martinez. Braun's reputation is so low because of the other thing that he just took it, but A-Rod definitely is being targeted specially and has every right to make MLB show their hand. And how about an answer to this..if Braun fails a test this year, how many games is he suspended for? Is this part of the three strike policy or no? He's never been found guilty of failing a test. (or however you want to word that) Edgy MD wrote: Braun didn't do this. He, in fact, bet his life, among other ridiculous and nasty and damaging things. This means not only does Trans Monk get to ridicule him, he can actually legally take Braun's life if he is of a mind to. I have no idea what this means. irrelevant or not, the tester DID violate the rules. Braun certainly took it way too far, made it way too personal and hateful, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to fight it or to challenge the process or tester. That he's an asshole isn't really of concern to me, since I'm not hanging out with him.

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 12:51 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: I have no idea what this means. irrelevant or not, the tester DID violate the rules. Braun certainly took it way too far, made it way too personal and hateful, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to fight it or to challenge the process or tester. That he's an asshole isn't really of concern to me, since I'm not hanging out with him. Really? You really have no idea? Because I really don't want to spend all day on this if you're just feigning confusion. You claim that everybody would and does behave as Braun did. I think that's plainly untrue.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 21 2013 12:53 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

You know what makes this endless discussion of the morality of amoral, big-scheme-of-things trivial sportsmen and the blundering, dumber-than-they-think dullards appealing? It's the fact that it's so life-affirming, and the stakes are so high, and-- also-- that we're totally not having the same argument over and over and over and over, resulting in no greater edification. It's those aspects of this that keep me from wanting to take my own eyes out with syringes-as-chopsticks when I hear it. I'd be okay with taking Braun at a bargain price. That includes Syndergaard, but only if they're paying most of Doucheboy's remaining contract.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 21 2013 12:55 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

No way I'm giving up a top prospect for Braun. He comes cheap or not at all.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 21 2013 01:03 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Braun and, say, $60-70M? So, Braun for the annual price of, say, Marlon Byrd for the next 8 years? Oh, I'd give up Syndergaard and an enchanted hammer for that.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 01:04 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: I have no idea what this means. irrelevant or not, the tester DID violate the rules. Braun certainly took it way too far, made it way too personal and hateful, but that doesn't mean he was wrong to fight it or to challenge the process or tester. That he's an asshole isn't really of concern to me, since I'm not hanging out with him. Really? You really have no idea? Because I really don't want to spend all day on this if you're just feigning confusion. You claim that everybody would and does behave as Braun did. I think that's plainly untrue. the bet his life bits. Who comes out and says "oh, you're accusing me..you're right I did it." I get that afterwards some people confess and apologize. But they're apologizing for what they got caught doing, not for doing it. They don't mean it. I don't get why people dismiss these guys like all is forgiven just because they mouth some words some PR guy handed them. It's all spin afterwards, and it's all the same whether they apologize or feign ignorance or claim they're really innocent. Braun, Pettitte, Clemens..all the same in my eyes. So yeah, maybe Braun took it further beyond where most would've given up and admitted guilt. But of course, he did eventually get to the point where the test was ruled invalidated. And had the private medical results not been leaked, you never would've known. So why should he have proclaimed himself guilty of something we shouldn't even know about?

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 01:16 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I don't know what we're talking about. I could just respond to every line in your post because it's all goofy but what's the point?

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 01:22 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Edgy MD wrote: I don't know what we're talking about. I could just respond to every line in your post because it's all goofy but what's the point? There's really no point. I don't hold anything against players for the BS they spout. I'd prefer them to be nice friendly non-hateful people, but the legal/PR angles they take mean absolutely nothing.

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 01:35 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Fine and understood, but how about not jerking me around by pretending to not know what I'm writing when it's plain and clear?

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 01:39 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Edgy MD wrote: Fine and understood, but how about not jerking me around by pretending to not know what I'm writing when it's plain and clear? I'm not, I really have no idea what you meant by gambling with his life and Transmonk as the right to kill him stuff.

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 01:43 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Braun betting his life: it's in the video. Transmonk and his the right to kill Braun: Satirical comment based on Braun's statement that he was willing to bet his life. Did you watch the video?

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 01:50 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Edgy MD wrote: Betting his life: it's in the video. Transmonk his the right to kill him: Satirical comment based on his statement that he was willing to bet his life. Did you watch the video? ahh, no. headphones, work, etc. Probably watched it originally. clarified. thank you.

Vic Sage Nov 21 2013 02:02 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Braun and, say, $60-70M? So, Braun for the annual price of, say, Marlon Byrd for the next 8 years? Oh, I'd give up Syndergaard and an enchanted hammer for that. Agreed, and the enchanted hammer, too... but not Mjolnir! I'll never give up Mjolnir!

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2013 02:22 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: And how about an answer to this..if Braun fails a test this year, how many games is he suspended for? Is this part of the three strike policy or no? He's never been found guilty of failing a test. (or however you want to word that) Failing a test is not the only way of violating the league's PED ban. 'Outside evidence' (or however they specifically word it) can be evidence of guilt as well. So if Braun were to fail a test in the future, that would I guess qualify as strike #2 and a 100 game ban. Why he agreed to 65 games rather than fight for 50 is unknown to me but most likely falls into the category of judging that the details becoming public would be worse than the extra 15 games, especially as those extra games were to be essentially throw-away games at the end of a season in which he was rehabbing injuries anyway. If there were only 53 games left in the season or 71 the penalty probably would have been a 53 or 71 game suspension. Rodriguez obviously has different ideas on his matter although I don't claim to know who's right here. I personally think Selig is over-shooting but ARod, rather than negotiate for something between 50 & 211 or even 50 and no more, is holding out for ZERO with no compromises in between as he maintains a full Lance Armstrong denial stance.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 02:37 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

I guess I'd have to read it, but presumably they have to furnish this "outside evidence" to someone? Otherwise this 65 games feels like a plea bargain type deal where you aren't actually found guilty. anyway, I really just want to actually see the evidence. If A-Rod hadn't fought it, no one would've. Presumably now at least the arbiter has seen it. The line for outside evidence isn't exactly clear cut. Take that doctor from Toronto that A-Rod and Reyes and a bunch of others were messing around with. (this was before this CBA, so probably slightly different wording?) That never amounted to anything that I recall, but MLB presumably could've tried to punish them as well. I dunno, I just feel like we're getting all the guilt trips and admonishments without the evidence. the media, and even baseball, seem more interested in just telling us these guys are the bad guys than actually delving into details.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2013 03:25 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: I guess I'd have to read it, but presumably they have to furnish this "outside evidence" to someone? Otherwise this 65 games feels like a plea bargain type deal where you aren't actually found guilty. Sure they present the evidence to someone -- the player who is being accused. We, MLB, suspend you, Ryan Braun, because we have records showing beyond our doubt that you received illegal PEDs from whatisname at Biogenesis. Do you wish to contest the charges? No? ... OK, 65 games If he doesn't like the penalty, either the length of it or that it exists in the first place, he has the right to have the case heard by an independent arbitrator who will rule either in his favor, the league's favor, or somewhere in between. This process is usually "binding" (if you agree to the process you agree to live with the results) and the rules as to how it works are spelled out in the Basic Agreement between MLB and the union and apply to various grievances not just drug violations. That Braun chose not to contend them--especially seeing as how he wasn't shy about doing so in the past--should tell you that his side didn't think the evidence was either weak or non-existent. Also it was at this point that his denials ceased, his apologies started, and his public image building with fans and the previous sample collector commenced. The other 11 chose not to contest the evidence either. The idea that only MLB's campaign against Rodriguez is weak, made-up, grandstanding, whatever, would seem odd to say the least. Maybe the size of the penalty is over-reaching (I've thought so all along) and the fact that he's fighting this makes it more likely that details will leak so maybe we will get a peak under the hood eventually, but that's not the same as saying there's no evidence or that it's not incriminating or that it doesn't fit the drug agreement in the CBA.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 03:35 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Frayed Knot wrote: The idea that only MLB's campaign against Rodriguez is weak, made-up, grandstanding, whatever, would seem odd to say the least. Maybe the size of the penalty is over-reaching (I've thought so all along) and the fact that he's fighting this makes it more likely that details will leak so maybe we will get a peak under the hood eventually, but that's not the same as saying there's no evidence or that it's not incriminating or that it doesn't fit the drug agreement in the CBA. of course not. But inferring the depth of it by the parties reaction is faulty. I understand MLB is not a court of law, and that MLB doesn't have to reach a certain point before they can accuse and penalize a player. That's what the union is there for, and presumably if it was trumped up they would've fought for it, but hell, if this is a big story that deserves regular attention, I'd like someone to at least investigate the details for me. I guess there just aren't enough facts for me to get angry at any of these guys for cheating nor do I think the crime is a big deal anyway. Is A-Rod just a blustering idiot or is the evidence not actually that overwhelmingly damning? Or did the insane and arbitrary length of the punishment pretty much force his hand? it's like $35-40 million right? That's probably the #1 reason he's fighting it.

Zvon Nov 21 2013 04:52 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: No way I'm giving up a top prospect for Braun. He comes cheap or not at all. For me, simple. This^.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2013 05:04 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: ... but hell, if this is a big story that deserves regular attention, I'd like someone to at least investigate the details for me. Except that the details of a employer/employee discipline deserve to be kept confidential particularly when it comes to things like drug use. That's the way things were set up and I'm sure the players want it kept that way. If/when ARod takes this to an outside legal theatre (he's either threatening to sue, or already has sued, MLB) then details will be more likely to become public and folks who choose to sit out of the arbitration hearings (as in both Rodriguez & Selig) won't necessarily have that choice.

Ceetar Nov 21 2013 09:32 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: ... but hell, if this is a big story that deserves regular attention, I'd like someone to at least investigate the details for me. Except that the details of a employer/employee discipline deserve to be kept confidential particularly when it comes to things like drug use. Well yeah, and that includes the appeals process and the procedures involved in that appeal/test. And fighting for that right was what got Braun the poor reputation to begin with.

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 10:52 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

It's amazing.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 22 2013 04:34 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

That is certainly one word for it.

Frayed Knot Nov 22 2013 06:05 PM Re: Forgive me for asking if we could discuss ... Ryan F. Br

Ceetar wrote: Well yeah, and that includes the appeals process and the procedures involved in that appeal/test. And fighting for that right was what got Braun the poor reputation to begin with. No, claiming that his skating on a technicality was the same as never testing dirty in the first place then being a general asshole about the whole process is what got Braun the poor reputation. Lots of guys have either tested positive or been linked via some other means to PEDs, yet not all of them earned the poor rep that Braun currently has hanging around his neck.