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Greatest Met of All-Time

Mex17 Nov 21 2013 07:08 PM

We all know who that is, it's Seaver. The purpose of this thread is not to debate that, but rather to discuss what it would take for anyone to knock him out of the #1 slot. The only one who is on the radar, IMO, who has a chance is Harvey, although he has a loooong way to go (I think that it is too late for Wright because he is associated with too many lean years and heartaches). Just for fun, let's try to speculate what it would take for Harvey to do it. I would say, at minimum. . . -2 World Series titles (with maybe at least one WS MVP thown in there) -3 Cy Youngs -1 no-hitter -Any number of (and by that, I mean "several") cluth performances during pennant races/postseasons What else? 300 wins? 3,000 K's? Are those numbers even possible anymore? Speculate away. I'm thinking about it because I just watched the "50 Greatest Mets" on SNY.

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 07:30 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Seaver certainly played in many a lean and heartachey year. Wright could certainly win a couple of championships, nail down a few MVPs, and pound out a 3,000th hit and 400th homer in a Met uniform. It's unlikely, but not because it's too late. But moreso because, well, things fall apart. But it's more likely for him than for Harvey certainly. He's halfway and isn't a pitcher, to say nothing of a pitcher who's gone through ligament replacment surgery and hasn't come out the other side yet.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 21 2013 07:47 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Definitely not too late for Wright. And Harvey, I hate to say, is likely to be elsewhere in 2019.

Zvon Nov 21 2013 08:06 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Way too early for me to consider Harvey in this discussion. I can with my heart but not with my head. It took up until just before he went down for me to accept even early comparisons with Seaver. He was talking the talk but I wanted to see him walk the walk, which he was doing. I don't think anyone ever tops Tom for a bunch of reasons, #1 being because of how the game has changed since his days.

d'Kong76 Nov 21 2013 08:16 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Mex17 wrote: I would say, at minimum. . . -2 World Series titles (with maybe at least one WS MVP thown in there) -3 Cy Youngs -1 no-hitter -Any number of (and by that, I mean "several") cluth performances during pennant races/postseasons What else? 300 wins? 3,000 K's? Wake me when Harvey does one of these things as a Met. Gotta love November baseball.

dinosaur jesus Nov 21 2013 10:03 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

What does "greatest" mean, anyway? Since Seaver is obviously the greatest by so many criteria, it's tough to say which particular criteria we're talking about. Being a really, really good player? Being utterly Metly, in a positive way? Winning awards? Playing on championship teams? (That rules out an awful lot of great Mets.) Having a nickname taken from a cartoon character? We need some kind of greatness formula, like the one for quarterback rating. The more complicated and arcane the better.

Edgy MD Nov 21 2013 10:56 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Greatest is a matter of opinion. But the notion that Seaver is the greatest Met is an opinion that comes about as close to being a fact as an opinion can get. For instance, whichever those criteria you choose above from dino j's list, he's comes out on top.

G-Fafif Nov 21 2013 11:06 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

I wonder when Phillies fans knew Mike Schmidt was their greatest, Cubs fans were sure Ernie Banks was their greatest, Reds fan swore nobody was greater in their uniform than Johnny Bench. There was no precedent for Seaver to shatter. I can't imagine anybody prior to 1967 really mulled "who's the greatest Met ever?" By 1969, the answer was evident and it's never been remotely challenged. So for a franchise like those mentioned above, the kind that's been around a while, when do those who care about such things feel certain there's been a change at the top? Harvey has too limited a resume to even contemplate him right now, I believe. Wright could put up impressive numbers over his (hopefully) one-team career here and might go down as one of the best third basemen of his era...but if we were making a case for him over Seaver, we'd be almost forcing the issue, like "look at how many team records he holds; look where he ranks at his position." Rather, I think it's one of those things where we'll know when we know -- and that we'll never know because I can't imagine anybody but Tom Seaver as the Greatest met of All-Time. But if we ever do get somebody at that level who sustains it and brings the Mets the success he brought them, we'll be a lucky bunch of fans. Imagine in one lifetime: a Seaver and somebody even greater?

Mex17 Nov 22 2013 03:30 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

The reason why I think that Harvey is the one with the best shot is because so much of the canvas is still blank. Yes, you can say that for anyone, but he has already displayed a few signs, IMO, that I really like (bulldog attitude, a bit of personality, monumental will). And Greg is right, we will just know it when we see it.

Elster88 Nov 22 2013 05:52 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

What is a bulldog attitude?

d'Kong76 Nov 22 2013 06:00 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Frayed Knot Nov 22 2013 06:48 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

G-Fafif wrote: ... There was no precedent for Seaver to shatter. I can't imagine anybody prior to 1967 really mulled "who's the greatest Met ever?" By 1969, the answer was evident and it's never been remotely challenged. According to the never-questioned CPF list of greatest Mets ever, the answer(s) to who was the greatest prior to Seaver were Frank Thomas, Roger Craig, Jim Hickman, Ron Hunt, Ed Kranepool, and Cleon Jones. Seaver officially took over the post at the close of the 1970 season and has held it ever since. And while it's tough to imagine anyone meaning as much to a franchise as Seaver did to those early NYM years (one possible definition of "greatest") the advantage Wright looks like he's going to have is a much longer tenure in the uniform. Seaver was dealt away from the Mets at the age Wright will be in the middle of the 2015 season and then just had the more limited contributions during his one-year return before finishing out his career in various colored sox. By CPF Rankings standards, the end of the 2015 season is also the first shot Wright would have of passing Seaver on our list, although 2016 is more likely. Injuries and/or sucking could delay it later still, or a Prince Fielder type of trade could prevent him from ever getting there. As for even contemplating the idea of Harvey as top Met ... eh, get back to me in a decade or so and I might have some thoughts on the subject.

seawolf17 Nov 22 2013 07:30 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

I agree with some that it's way too early on Harvey. Too many variables between now and then. Wright is knocking on the door, I think. He already has a lot of the career-best offensive numbers, and he'll become #1 in homers (30) in 2015. Stay healthy and productive through this contract, give him one WS ring and I think he's got it.

Edgy MD Nov 22 2013 07:42 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

And let's be honest. Wright can never mean as much to us as Seaver meant when we were ten. Or even if we arrived on the scene after he was gone but grew up listening to folks speak about him in hushed tones or opening a vein every time the trade was mentioned. But if you're 15 now, and Wright's been the man your entire Met-loving life, and if he captains you a pair of championship teams your freshman and sophomore year of college, wins an MVP, gathers his 3,000th hit when you're a senior, you'll be all, "What's a Seaver? I got your pro's pro right here."

Benjamin Grimm Nov 22 2013 08:03 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Edgy MD wrote: And let's be honest. Wright can never mean as much to us as Seaver meant when we were ten. Definitely. I liked having Mike Piazza as a Met, for example, but he never meant as much to me as he did to some of the forum member (like Valadius) who are quite a bit younger than me.

Ceetar Nov 22 2013 08:26 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Edgy MD wrote: And let's be honest. Wright can never mean as much to us as Seaver meant when we were ten. Definitely. I liked having Mike Piazza as a Met, for example, but he never meant as much to me as he did to some of the forum member (like Valadius) who are quite a bit younger than me. yeah, I mean if we're making this personal Wright surpassed Seaver in 2006 for me and I'd probably say he's past Piazza too at this point. In terms of fondness, we'll need a WS from Wright I think. In terms of performance? I dunno, when he takes the HR title seems like a good one.

seawolf17 Nov 22 2013 09:25 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Well, there's a difference between "favorite Met" (for me, Kevin McReynolds) and "greatest Met" (for me, Seaver, but as I said, Wright's almost there).

themetfairy Nov 22 2013 10:31 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

As much as I love Mr. Wright - and you all know that I do - I don't think he'll ever be the Greatest Met. Seaver is undisputedly the Greatest Met because, among other things, he changed how people thought about the team. He had an aura of excellence and that made those around him play at their best too. To surpass Seaver as Greatest Met someone would have to be a dominant leader with tremendous stats over a period of several years. And anything less than two World Series championships could never do more than tie Seaver.

metsmarathon Nov 22 2013 11:28 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

right now, according to fangraphs, wright has about 50 WAR for his career. in about the same number of metly seasons, seaver had about 73 WAR. for wright to rightfully take the title of greatest met, he'd have to not only surpass that 73 career WAR, but pass it by enough to put to rest any quality vs quantity arguments. wright would have to vault himself into the pantheon of historical third basemen, in other words, to have a chance. to put a mark on the wall, i'd say he'd probably have to be chipper jones for his metly career to even have a chance at making it a discussion. and even then, it's probably only a discussion. while wright is the warringest metly hitter, by about 10 WAR per bbref (switching formats for ease of data accesibility), if you look at WAR/600 PA, david wright has been the 6th most productive met. i'd tell you who the other top ten are, but this smells like a quiz in the making. ooh, i checked hte top WAR/250 IP metly pitchers. another quiz! shocking results!

Edgy MD Nov 22 2013 11:40 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Seaver gets points off for WAR accumulated against the Mets from 1977-1982. And for any intangibles he brought to the Boston cluhouse in 1986. On the other side, he gets positiive points for the tangibles that he brought to them while still healthy that might have vaulted them over an otherwise better team, and then getting hurt and making the lesser team the champ the Mets had to face. #schwing!

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 22 2013 11:53 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

metsmarathon wrote: right now, according to fangraphs, wright has about 50 WAR for his career. in about the same number of metly seasons, seaver had about 73 WAR. for wright to rightfully take the title of greatest met, he'd have to not only surpass that 73 career WAR, but pass it by enough to put to rest any quality vs quantity arguments. wright would have to vault himself into the pantheon of historical third basemen, in other words, to have a chance. to put a mark on the wall, i'd say he'd probably have to be chipper jones for his metly career to even have a chance at making it a discussion. and even then, it's probably only a discussion. This is exactly what the lady from Fidelity said to me this morning, except it was about my retirement account and not David Wright.

Ashie62 Nov 23 2013 09:32 PM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Seaver is our first love...there will never be another...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 24 2013 12:17 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Oh, I don't know about "love." I mean, he's the Greatest Met, and will almost certainly always be the Greatest Met. But, y'know, first in our hearts? Unequivocally first in our hearts. Through no fault of his own-- and, y'know, some fault of his own-- there's room at the top.

SteveJRogers Nov 24 2013 07:36 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

Seaver is in the conversation for the greatest off all-time to play his position. Hard to agrue that logic for determining greatest player in franchise (pun possibly intended) history. Short of that, is player among the best in the game at his position in the era he played? That's the Strawberrys, Piazzas, Wrights, etc.

MFS62 Nov 24 2013 08:21 AM Re: Greatest Met of All-Time

I'm hoping that 25 years from now, this thread would be discussing a player other than Seaver as the absolute best Met of all time. That would mean several things: 1) We will be around to enjoy at least part of that career 2) He will be a really fucking good player. 3) There are at least a few more Championship years in the offing. Later