Dec 18 2013 12:09 PM
Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot
Maybe I should have added this (I thought the large type and exclamation points would have helped):
Master Index of Archived Threads
Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot
| G-Fafif Nov 26 2013 12:18 PM |
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Eight wore the Mets uniform, though none quite like Mike.
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| Frayed Knot Nov 26 2013 12:23 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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My gut reaction says: Piazza, Maddux, Glavine, Raines, Biggio
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| Ceetar Nov 26 2013 12:28 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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None. screw 'em all, steroid cheating bastards, every last one of them.
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| Edgy MD Nov 26 2013 12:28 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Guyz I'm surprised have been out of the game long enough to qualify:
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 26 2013 12:53 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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You have to go for Frank Thomas -- 500+ homers, two-time MVP, never a hit of the bad stuff. Trammell is qualified, but I'm afraid his time has passed in too many voters' minds.
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| seawolf17 Nov 26 2013 01:02 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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My ten, on gut alone:
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| batmagadanleadoff Nov 26 2013 01:04 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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What's the rumor with the voters? Are they gonna keep out their steroids suspects for another year?
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| Ceetar Nov 26 2013 01:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Jeff Bagwell
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 26 2013 01:08 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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These are the players who should get serious consideration:
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 26 2013 01:31 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The writers who tried to make a statement with their last non-vote really created some problems for future votes and of course did nobody any favors or justice.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 26 2013 01:35 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I believe the limit is 10.
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| TransMonk Nov 26 2013 01:39 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I like this list.
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| metirish Nov 26 2013 01:49 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yes I just know Ray Durham is a HOF player in your heart. The Met that never was.
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| Frayed Knot Nov 26 2013 02:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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It is ten. I oddly have no memory of Ray Durham.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 26 2013 02:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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You'd have remembered him if Omar only did what I said and traded for him in 2005, leading us to the playoffs that year. Instead he nothing so he could blame it all on Looper.
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| HahnSolo Nov 26 2013 02:09 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Just a hunch, maybe I'm a cynic, but I don't think Maddux and Glavine both get in the first time around, since there are so many good candidates to take votes away. I think Maddux is in and Glavine waits.
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| Edgy MD Nov 26 2013 02:52 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Meanwhile Deadspin has gone to great lengths [crossout]to empower fans[/crossout] [crossout]to subvert the process[/crossout] [crossout]to make a point that needs making[/crossout] do something.
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| Edgy MD Nov 26 2013 02:57 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Oh, and I'll go with:
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| Frayed Knot Nov 26 2013 02:57 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That would give those two something else in common to go along with 5/27/68
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| Frayed Knot Nov 26 2013 03:06 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Not that I think their idea is all that subversive and needs to be stopped immediately, but they seem to be basing it all on the idea that the results have become "increasingly absurd" and that it's largely due to the votes being given to "a random subset" of writers. I don't always agree with the results either but I'm not buying their premise here.
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| Ceetar Nov 26 2013 03:09 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I absolutely buy the premise, but then I don't particularly care about the writers "great players" club much anymore. We'll see if that changes this year.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 26 2013 03:14 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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My idea to prevent a fiasco like last year from happening again:
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| Benjamin Grimm Nov 26 2013 03:53 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't understand the desire to get as many people as possible into the Hall. If I was a voter, I doubt I'd ever vote for more than three or four players in a given year. I'd never vote for ten.
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| Ashie62 Nov 26 2013 04:10 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Maddux...Frank Thomas and Glavine are locks..
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| bmfc1 Nov 26 2013 04:13 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Mike Piazza
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| Frayed Knot Nov 26 2013 05:15 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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So make the case then for how and why recent HoF inductees (or non) have become more "absurd" than in earlier years. And how exactly is the distribution of votes "random"? What this little exercise of Deadspin's sounds like to me is a display of arrogance along the lines of: we and our readers are internet savvy therefore they know better than those stupid sportswriters. It's fine to think that this exercise in crowd-sourcing will be more "correct" (as if there are cut-and-dried right or wrong answers here) but I think they're both inventing then exaggerating the supposed problems with the current system in order for their "fix" to sound better. Of course the BBWAA is already a form of crowd-sourcing, usually containing nearly 500 votes that have to be earned with a minimum of a decade of membership. And even if you want to make the case that as many as 10% of the voters are certifiably insane and all opt to give Greg Maddux's votes to John Franco, the remaining non-insane ones would merely have to vote 'Yea' at slightly above 80% to gain him admittance.
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| Edgy MD Nov 26 2013 05:17 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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What it sounds like to me is a merry-prankster attention grab/performance art piece. Whatever goes down, they'll get to take a bow at the end.
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| Frayed Knot Nov 26 2013 05:18 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 26 2013 06:58 PM |
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I don't consider last year's result to be a fiasco. Some years there are more than others, I fail to see why this is a big deal. And the idea of allowing players in who fall short of the 75% is pretty much the definition of lowering standards.
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| G-Fafif Nov 26 2013 05:36 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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1. Piazza
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 26 2013 05:43 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Most baseball fans, and the village, and the Hall itself (at least behind closed doors) likely disagree.
NOBODY living-- players, writers, coaches, impresarios, organists, mascots, baseball clowns, vendors with superlative aim-- with a connection to the game was inducted last year. That means nothing to celebrate, when there's actually a hell of a lot to celebrate, and a logjam for the foreseeable future that might actually work to PERPETUATE what happened for the next ten years or so, at least... and push some of the finest pitchers and hitters in the game-- like, top-5 best EVER-- to the Veteran's Committee, if then. Jeff Bagwell Craig Biggio Barry Bonds Roger Clemens T#m Gl@v!ne Greg Maddux Edgar Martinez Mike Piazza Tim Raines Frank Thomas Sorry, Trammell, Walker, and everyone's favorite Motorcycle Acrobat.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 26 2013 06:27 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think it was a huge fiasco. It's not like there wasn't worthy players on that ballot. There were writers turning in blank ballots as a protest to lower everyone's percentage. My plan makes voting stunt-proof.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 26 2013 07:02 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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See, here's the thing, FK: when you limit the voting body to "working beat writers," you limit the electors to a group of people who likely watch LESS baseball-- and certainly less out-of-market baseball-- than your average analyst/blogger/involved fan, who can watch 5-10 games a night, and follow the relevant game-to-game stats as they happen, all while the beat writer watches his one game a night. These days, access begets less actual access, and-- apparently-- far less circumspection.
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| Frayed Knot Nov 26 2013 07:09 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I agree that it would be better to have a more consistent number of guys getting in each year than it is to have none one season then a bunch the next - but it doesn't always work out that way and rigging the outcome just to make it so would be the worse option IMO.
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| Lefty Specialist Nov 26 2013 07:14 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Piazza, Gl@v!ne, Biggio, Maddux. Big Hurt waits a year.
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| batmagadanleadoff Nov 26 2013 08:22 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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It seems that the older I get, the less I understand. I just took a quick glance at the eligibles and it seems that there's more than 10 that are deserving of enshrinement. If I'm right, then I could justify how some might not get in this year, but only provided that 10 get in. I don't know why some HOF'ers have to wait. Some of your ballots are including a half dozen or so candidates, while at the same time acknowledging that there are other deserving candidates who nevertheless should wait. I still don't know why Yogi Berra didn't get in in his first year of eligibility, or why Tom Seaver is the all-time leader in voting % - with less than 100% of the vote. Seaver should've gotten every vote possible ... along with dozens of other players throughout history. There's probably more than 50 HOF'ers who are no-brainer automatic inner circle MLB'ers who were so great, so transcendent, they make some other HOF'ers look like crapola. Why nobody ever got 100% of the ballot still beats me. Someone left Willie Mays off their ballot? Stan Musial? Mickey Mantle? Explain those omissions to me. Someone doubted Jim Palmer's or Willie Stargell's bona fides?
I disagree. I'm not necessarily siding with last year's non-vote or boycott, but it shouldn't create a logjam. Unless every season going forward produces more than 10 new eligible HOF-worthy candidates. And that hasn't happened since the initial inductions. And that's only because there was no HOF prior, and the first ballots represented 50 or so years of HOF-less baseball. If there was a moratorium on HOF admission for the next 50 years, the 2063 ballot would undoubtedly include more than 10 eligible inner circle candidates, too. To the extent the voters might create logjams is not really new. They're already creating somewhat of a logjam by enforcing their own self-invented rules about who deserves to get inducted in their first year of eligibility. I mean, if you think that Jim Rice is a HOF'er, then he should've gotten in immediately. 'Cause he didn't get any better during his retirement, waiting out the HOF balloting process.
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| Ceetar Nov 26 2013 08:32 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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except the vote's not limited to 'working beat writers' but 'guys who at have at least at one point in the near or distant past been working beat writers' meaning there are golf writers voting on the HoF and guys that have admittedly not watched much baseball. You can argue some based on what you think the Hall is for I guess, but to me it's an extension of the sport and a way to continue to celebrate the greatest players. Sure, some people might not make the cut for greatest in some eyes, but they're still certainly very good players that shouldn't be forgotten. To misconstrue very good players as great once in a while is a minor sin compared to giving us nothing to celebrate at all in a given year for BS reasons like proclaiming yourself the moral authority and ultimate judge of guilt. All those things are absurd. So is sending in blank ballots to purposely discount other peoples vote. I mean, last year would've been a spectacle. It probably would've set records in attendance. And that's just for Piazza, a New York legend, not including all the Giants fans in the area and right or wrong, the Bonds drama.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 26 2013 08:36 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I agree about making guys wait. I think it was Phil Niekro who said something like "I guess my stats got better" when he finally made it after like 13 years on the ballot.
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| batmagadanleadoff Nov 26 2013 09:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The irony is that the writers aren't staving off the floodgates either. In the end, every deserving candidate usually gets in anyway. And to the extent the voters make some mistakes, whether an admission or an exclusion you might disagree with, it's almost always at the fringes, or boundaries of admissions. In the end, the Rod Carews still get in and the Don Bufords don't. So if the voters are withholding votes from knowingly deserving candidates to stem some imaginary tide of entry, it isn't working.
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| Edgy MD Nov 26 2013 09:06 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah, but justice delayed = justice denied, and all, and while this isn't a matter of justice, it is meaningful to be rewarding some of these guys in a timely matter. Marvin Miller died unrewarded simply because nobody could agree on the rules.
You mostly have me until here, Ceet. I have no problem with the body proclaiming themselves the ultimate judge of guilt. They are, after all, asked to be the ultimate judge on everything about these careers. What I have a problem with is the lazy way they exercised their judgment, lumping in with admitted users the likes of Piazza and Bagwell and Biggio and Raines, which to me represents a pretty steep slide downwards in the realm of incriminating evidence. Raines is a perfect example of a player who may miss out entirely based largely on this deliberate logjam. This is, what, his seventh ballot?
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| 86-Dreamer Nov 26 2013 09:21 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Piazza
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| Ceetar Nov 26 2013 09:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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if they want to be judges, they need hard and fast laws. That means if you haven't turned conclusive evidence in the FIVE YEARS since the player retired, you have to work with what you've got. No "well, let's see if he admits it in the book" nonsense. That's absurd. It's a yes or no question, you've got his stats and records and all that, and no evidence to support not putting him in. I think it's absurd to keep Bonds (and Clemens) out, but if you want to go that route, even without the actual 'failed test' stuff, I can at least understand the logic and reasoning.And sure, Sosa, McGuire (and none of this 'oh, he admitted it so I'll forgive him' nonsense either.
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| MFS62 Nov 26 2013 09:41 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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My votes go to Piazza, Maddux, Biggio, Bagwell, and Kent.
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| Edgy MD Nov 26 2013 10:46 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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If you can understand the logic and reasoning, then it's definitively not absurd. It's just something you disagree with.
You disagreeing with it doesn't make it nonsense, either. Listen, I disagree with their lack of selections last year too. It was lazy and riddled with guilt by association. But guilt does exist, and people have a serious challenge sorting that out, and we ought to at least respect that it's hard. Just effectively saying "I can't figure this out so everyone should be considered absolved" is just as intellectually lazy as saying "I can't figure this out so everyone should be considered guilty."
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 26 2013 11:14 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, yes, but what if it isn't throwing your hands up at first sight of the problem, but a deliberate, deliberated conclusion that we can't ever know not only who did what, but what sort of effect any hypothetical "juice" would have actually HAD? I'm not so sure such a conclusion isn't just plain The Most Reasonable Possible Conclusion.
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| Gwreck Nov 26 2013 11:31 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Who SHOULD get in:
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| Gwreck Nov 26 2013 11:51 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Who WILL get in:
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| dgwphotography Nov 27 2013 03:49 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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This. So Much this. Piazza Maddux Biggio Raines Bonds, Clemens, and Martinez can buy tickets. The rest can wait
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| Edgy MD Nov 27 2013 06:21 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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But what if there are more than four, and pretty much close to ten, you feel are not only clearly past the post, but clearly above the HOF mean.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 27 2013 06:31 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Also, if YOU think that 9 or 10 players deserve to be in eventually, but you don't vote for them now, for weird "first-ballot"-type reasons, well... isn't that disingenuous? Isn't that vote becoming less about actual baseball achievement, and more about arbitrary, yearly limits? Isn't that sort of vote more about you than about them, or the game? Are you Angel Hernandez?
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| Frayed Knot Nov 27 2013 06:39 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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But there AREN'T set standards for induction so the threshold remains 75% based on the opinion of those who vote. And, yes, those opinions are going to differ as one man's sure thing is a close miss in another's ballot. What I don't get is the notion being floated here that these opinions were fine all this time but have suddenly changed to some arbitrary nonsense that needs to be corrected because we didn't like the number of people elected last year. The only thing that's changed recently is that the first crop of steroid-era players are coming for consideration and I think that it's going to be a while until that issue all gets sorted out. But, again, the vox populi vote on this issue is going to be just as varied and the two sides (assuming there are only two) just as antagonistic as they are in the BBWAA voice.
I don't advocate not voting just for the sake of not voting either. But while stats don't change after retirement sometimes perspectives do so folks are allowed to change their minds from time to time. A tiny minority of voters (we're talking: you can count 'em on one hand kind of numbers) refuse to vote for ANY 1st ballot guys (hence the non-100% head scratchers) and while I presonally think that's stupid I also realize that it makes no difference to the eventual outcomes. Maddux at "only" 97% will still be in. But the majority of voters aren't limited by any self-imposed constraints and sometimes only two votes means that only two in their minds for that year are worthy of a vote. Yes, Santo got screwed ... or he was a guy who was undeserving simply because he fell short in the minds of too many people and then was wrongly inducted because of a sympathy vote. It all depends on how one looks at it and I don't find the latter choice any better than the former.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 27 2013 06:55 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Here's the part that confuses me. They can wait for ... what? What made Jim Rice and Bert Blyleven better candidates in year 15 than in year 1? Here's the Faller column I referenced. He was a colleague at the Bridgeport Post years ago. [url]http://www.azcentral.com/sports/heatindex/articles/20121220nobody-deserves-my-hall-vote-year.html?nclick_check=1 I
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| HahnSolo Nov 27 2013 07:23 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I really dislike the 15-year window. Make it 2 or 3 years and have no limit on how many guys you can vote on in a given year. Whether you advocate for guys like Rice, Morris, or Blyleven, I see no reason that these guys should twist in the wind forever because voters have the opportunity to "think about them next year."
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| Edgy MD Nov 27 2013 07:29 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, if the balloting wasn't public, they wouldn't be twisting in the wind, but I have no problem with the extended window. Even though a guy's legacy isn't changing over the time, our understanding of it is, as is our shifting perspective of context in which is legacy occurred. That's the way history works.
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| Frayed Knot Nov 27 2013 07:33 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 27 2013 07:43 AM |
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btw, there seem to be two schools of leaving first-timers off the ballot - both of which I disagree with, but here they are:
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| Edgy MD Nov 27 2013 07:37 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'd say it's largely harmless. Not completely.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 27 2013 07:48 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think you are exactly right -- and maybe a little attention-seeking on the part of those voters. Kind of like Brian McCann "enforcing" the unwritten rules. I'd be in favor of making all the ballots public so these guys can defend their choices. The guys who didn't vote for Willie Mays and Hank Aaron should have to defend that. And, really, who, after a few years, remembers who was a first-ballot guy. Robin Yount was a first-ballot guy. His plaque looks pretty similar to Jim Rice's plaque.
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| Ceetar Nov 27 2013 07:50 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Here's a thought, say they punish Piazza for his era/acne and it takes him 10 years to get in. That's 2023. He retired in 2007 and if you want 'true Piazza' you gotta go back a little further. Anyone that saw him play even close to in his prime will be approaching 30. (an aside here, in that it kind of makes sense. I'm 31 and it's only just recently that I've seen more than one or two electees play) Isn't there value in letting the kid that was 10 when Piazza played in the World Series and became a Mets/baseball fan because of it get to celebrate it while they're still younger, perhaps when they're at a time when other interests might take them away from baseball? When you take a 8, 10, 12 year old kid to the museum, doesn't it lose some appeal when everyone is "This guy was great...before you were born" 5 years feels like a good time to allow the legacy to settle, but then put the guys in so we can celebrate them. Part of baseball has always been debate and arguing over who's better. This guy played in that era, this one didn't face segregation, this guy had a larger pitchers mound, this guy took steroids.. It is what it is. Baseball has rules. In the end, the stats and records stand based on those rules, and inventing reasons why you think they shouldn't count, or count less, is absurd.
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| Edgy MD Nov 27 2013 07:51 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Regarding the DiMaggio tale, his final game was the last game of that season. So if he suddenly realized he had to honor America by withdrawing at exactly the moment he wasn't able to perform up to his gilded standard (why not quit smoking, you clown?), how remarkable the coincidence that this epiphany took place when his bags were already packed.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 27 2013 08:03 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Wallace Matthews chimes in today, complete with Yankee worship and the obligatory shot at a Met.
Bentiez is not a Hall-of-Famer, but he was named to two All-Star teams, got some MVP votes and led the league in saves (topping 40 three times). There are worse players on the ballot.
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| seawolf17 Nov 27 2013 08:09 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Wally probably doesn't even realize Benitez was a Met. He's probably thinking about Armando's nine innings as a Yankee, which means he falls just six innings short of HOF enshrinement, and the home run he gave up to ol' whatshisname as an O.
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| metsmarathon Nov 27 2013 08:12 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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i think it's time to do away with the ten vote limit. writers should be allowed (and perhaps instructed) to vote who whomever they feel meets the standards for enshrinement.
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| Ceetar Nov 27 2013 08:13 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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This is it. oh, and "home run" best case for replay I've ever heard.
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| HahnSolo Nov 27 2013 08:20 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'm trying, but I just can't muster up much outrage over what Matthews said about Benitez. On this ballot, he is a throwaway.
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| Edgy MD Nov 27 2013 08:28 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Armando is the big guy that self-loathing little guys love to beat up on. Matthews here is Curly taking shots at Lenny in Of Mice and Men.
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| MFS62 Nov 27 2013 08:44 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Matthews is just in a snit because he can't vote for Derek Jeter yet.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 27 2013 08:50 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Here's the kicker in Wally's column:
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| Lefty Specialist Nov 27 2013 09:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Admitting Phil Rizzuto was the shark-jumping point. It went from the 'Hall of Fame' to the 'Hall of the Pretty Good'.
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| Frayed Knot Nov 27 2013 10:02 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Which was via the Vet's committee, not the regular process. And it was even worse than that in that it was a vet's committee intentionally stocked so as to get Phil in. Berra, then broadcast partner Bill White, and longtime friend Pee-Wee Reese were added just that year and, I believe, off the committee shortly afterward. Yogi's post-vote call to Rizzuto was reportedly "we got you in". And at the risk of belaboring the point, the advantage of the current system is that, with 400-500 members, no one voting bloc can skew the results the way the old vets committee did with Rizzuto and Mazeroski.
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| SteveJRogers Nov 27 2013 03:33 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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FWIW, that committee had been messing things up going back to the 1970s! There was a thing called "The Glory Of Their Times Affect" that allowed a lot of the players talked up greatly in that oral history book to get enshrined through the back door during those years. Also Frankie Frisch ruled the Committee with an iron fist during these years to get a lot of old Cardinals and Giants from the 1920s and 1930s in there. Some of the "Worst. Picks. Ever." come from this era of the HOF. Rizzuto stands out because of Skankee dominance when it comes to discussing baseball history. Read Bill James' "Whatever Happened To The Hall" that came out around 93-94, it is a good history of all the various processes up to that point.
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| SteveJRogers Nov 27 2013 03:37 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Edgy is gonna love this one...
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| Edgy MD Nov 27 2013 03:46 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't know why that's particularly aimed at me, but you've got to realize, Steve, we've already been discussing the Deadspin thing, in this very thread, starting about 24 hours ago.
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| SteveJRogers Nov 27 2013 04:04 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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D'OH I know you don't care very much for Deadspin and their ilk encroaching on traditional journalism. Feel free to remove...SMH, RMPL...
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| Edgy MD Nov 27 2013 04:19 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Actually, I think you're confusing me with another. Deadspin the thing is a good. It's empowered a lot of douchecraft, but traditional sports journalism was a douchecraft elite. It's no accident that baseball has grown more scientific in the age of the internet. Democracy is ugly, but it's productive. Deadspin now publishes Dave McKenna, who I've made no secret of declaring to be my favorite sports scribe.
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| G-Fafif Nov 27 2013 04:49 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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| Ashie62 Nov 27 2013 07:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Each passing freezing day is one day closer to spring training...
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| Vic Sage Nov 27 2013 10:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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[u:1r5bywlo]My ballot (10):[/u:1r5bywlo]
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| Edgy MD Dec 18 2013 08:20 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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So, Greg Maddux: bookish, upright, insanley efficient, apparently clean in a dirty era, a guy who represented many of those classic values many claim to love but probably don't if it's too hard.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 18 2013 08:51 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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As long as there are writers out there who take it upon themselves to "protest the era" by turning in blank ballots, it will be tough for Maddux to beat Seaver.
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| Edgy MD Dec 18 2013 08:55 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah, but are we still there? The writers may well feel en masse tha they made their point and are done with punishing the innocent with the apparently guilty.
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| dgwphotography Dec 18 2013 09:25 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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BLASPHEMY!!!
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| metirish Dec 18 2013 09:30 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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HOF "expert" predicts ONLY Maddox gets in
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| Edgy MD Dec 18 2013 09:36 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Don't mean to be blasphemous. Just asking a question.
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| batmagadanleadoff Dec 18 2013 09:53 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Why on Earth would anyone think the question blasphemous? Seaver doesn't deserve to be the all time record holder for vote percentage into the HOF. And likewise, he didn't deserve to get into the HOF with anything less than 100% of the votes on his first try. To the extent he deserves any part of that record (because who the hell would be in his right mind to exclude Seaver from a HOF ballot?) so do dozens of other HOF'ers. In a fair and perfect world, Seaver would be tied with many others for the vote percentage record -- with 100% of the vote. This is basic stuff.
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| Edgy MD Dec 18 2013 09:59 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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What can I say? dgw likes the Seav.
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| metsmarathon Dec 18 2013 11:57 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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maddux (and glavine) totally roided up in those nike 'chicks dig the long ball' commercials. so he's out too, damnit! the stain of the era is on them [u:1px85ezs]all[/u:1px85ezs]!
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| dgwphotography Dec 18 2013 12:09 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Maybe I should have added this (I thought the large type and exclamation points would have helped):
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| Trachsel My Tears Dec 18 2013 12:42 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Doesn't Maddux seem as well-qualified as Seaver? Win totals, Cy Young Awards, writer-friendliness--in all these areas he seems even to edge Seaver a little bit. I don't recall his ever being a bit of a jerk, which Seaver (I know, BLASPHEMY!!!) could be. I don't understand why exactly Seaver leads the crowd, since there are plenty of All-American extremely excellent players before him and since him: George Brett, Cal Ripken, Mickey Mantle--why does he lead the parade, do you suppose?
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| Edgy MD Dec 18 2013 12:58 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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A real, live nu poster? Could Christmas have come early? Welcome a-Bordick!
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| Frayed Knot Dec 18 2013 01:26 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Seaver is, in any logical argument, at or near the top of his position for a half-century or so leading up to his enshrinement so the answer to the question 'Why Him?' is really; 'Why Not?'
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 18 2013 01:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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There was more than a little whiff to Ripken that he was in it for himself, that he should have stopped before passing Gehrig or that putting the streak before the team was detrimental etc. Now most of that is bullshit but an easy explaation as to why he didn't tick everyone's box.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 18 2013 01:53 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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There were people who thought that Nolan Ryan might be the first 100 percenter.
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| d'Kong76 Dec 18 2013 02:07 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Welcome a-Bordick, TearTrax!
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| Ceetar Dec 18 2013 02:18 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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There are probably more than 10 candidates this year, so even if people were being realistic, they're all going to have to decide to leave someone off who deserves in and will inevitably choose silly reasons to do so, so a guy like Maddux would get left off just cause he struck out a writer's favorite player or something.
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| dinosaur jesus Dec 18 2013 02:34 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Another factor with Seaver was that he was clearly the best candidate on the ballot; that's probably true of Maddux as well, but not as overwhelmingly. The only other candidate who made it in 1992 was Rollie Fingers, and several others, like Ron Santo and Tony Perez, eventually got in, but it wasn't one of the stronger ballots.
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| Ceetar Dec 18 2013 02:46 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Barry Bonds.
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| MFS62 Dec 19 2013 07:58 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Welcome a-Bordick, rookie.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 19 2013 12:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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This is why no one will ever get 100 percent. There will always be someone stupid spoiling his ballot.
So, people counting the ballots do what? Take the first 10? Toss his entire ballot? Tell him, "Look, dummy. These are easy instructions. If you can't count to 10, you don't deserve to vote."
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| G-Fafif Dec 19 2013 12:19 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Guy should check around, see which of his colleagues is leaving a space (or more) blank and quietly ask, "if you're not already, do me a solid and vote for Martinez, and down the road, when I'm voting for fewer than 10 and you're overstuffed, I'll return the favor." I doubt Edgar Martinez's case means that much to him, but it's better than guaranteeing your ballot won't be counted in advance.
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| MFS62 Dec 19 2013 12:27 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Where do I nominate Lynn Henning for the writers' wing of the HOF for coming right out and saying that he feels that a (mostly) DH does not belong in the HOF?
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 19 2013 12:46 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Have you tried ignoramus.com
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| Vic Sage Dec 19 2013 01:55 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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how about AL pitchers? Are they undeserving of a HoF vote, too? They don't hit, you know, so they're only half a ballplayer, and like their NL counterparts, starting pitchers only play 1 out of 5 games. And relief pitchers should absolutely not be eligible, right? they only pitch what, 60 innings a year, and hardly ever hit. Bah. Fie on them! You've made this point about the undeserving DH before and guess what... it's still bullshit. And any writer arbitrarily deciding that certain positions that baseball players currently play are unworthy of a HoF vote, no matter how good the player is at it, shouldn't get extra credit for that decision; they should just turn their balloting rights over to somebody who isn't an asshole.
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| Edgy MD Dec 19 2013 02:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Can there be any doubt that many of the most unimpeachably great baseball players --- Rushmorian figures like Ruth, Williams, and Aaron --- would have spent half their careers or more as DH's if the rules allowed for it? They might have objected (which Frank Thomas did, by the way [and maybe Edgar Martinez, for all I know]), but they would have been advised by their manager that he's in charge of the team, and they would have sat down and eaten sunflower seeds until it was their turn to bat. Because that's what the manager decided was in the best interest of the team.
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| Edgy MD Dec 19 2013 02:02 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Wille McCovey? DH.
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| dinosaur jesus Dec 19 2013 03:49 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Derek Jeter? DH.
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| Trachsel My Tears Dec 20 2013 03:56 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I like this argument--it explains Seaver's vote-gathering as essentially a lucky accident. I mean, him getting 95%+ of the vote is on merit, but his 95%+ total being boosted above that of equally-deserving candidates was just happenstance of who was on the rest of that ballot, which explains a lot. It never seems quite fair for someone to remain outside Cooperstown, either, just because he was up for a vote with a lot of other star players, does it? It makes sense that Seaver benefitted from the luck of the draw in the opposite direction. If he'd gone up against a Mike Schmidt and a Pete Rose and a Carlton and a Morgan and a Sutton and a Bench, he wouldn't have gotten quite the number of votes he had. Makes sense to me.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 20 2013 06:40 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That usually doesn't matter--or at least it shouldn't. With up to ten options on a ballot, none of the 'no-brainers' eligible that year should lose any votes - and by the time you're getting around to deciding on how to sort out those who are either just making it or just missing out (say like 8th place thru 12th) you're no longer talking about the true elites anyway. So while the stacked ballot may hurt the borderline candidates (like maybe this year) it shouldn't affect those at the top of the heap.
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| Edgy MD Dec 20 2013 07:16 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Historically, it's more likely that a weaker candidate gets in because he tops a weaker ballot, than a stronger candidate gets left out (at least for a while) because he ended up on a stronger ballot.
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| batmagadanleadoff Dec 20 2013 08:01 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Early Returns: Piazza On Pace.
http://risingapple.com/2013/12/19/mike- ... e-returns/
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| Edgy MD Dec 20 2013 08:15 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I have hearsay and conjecture! And those are... kinds of evidence.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 20 2013 08:34 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Hey look. I hate the whodunnit witch hunt as much as anyone, but if Piazza wasn't absolutely loaded with roids I don't know what.
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| Ceetar Dec 20 2013 08:37 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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breaking: They ALL were/are.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 20 2013 08:52 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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but of course.
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| Edgy MD Dec 20 2013 08:58 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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No, I think saying they all are/were is as much of a washing of the hands as believing none are/were. It's unfortunately much harder than that.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 20 2013 09:01 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Everyone is a suspect is what I mean.
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| Ceetar Dec 20 2013 09:04 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Maybe to you. It's not to me. Put the guys in that performed to Hall of Fame levels on the field and stop worrying about if the special substances they took were legal, not legal, legal in baseball, or even helpful. And if you want to play some sort of morality police, wait for actual freaking evidence of cheating the rules and regulations, not wild speculation or assumption.
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| Edgy MD Dec 20 2013 09:27 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yes they are all suspects.
Yes, you've applied the notion of relativism to many, many things. But there is a truth that exists beyond what is true to you and what is true to me. And that's what we mean to pursue in our discussions
It's certainly a valid argument, but there are other perspectives, and the actual criteria of the Hall of Fame challenge voters to take these other perspectives.
How patronizing.
Wait. WAIT! YOU, a few posts up, without any concern for "freaking evidence," just declared all MLB players to be guilty.
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| Ceetar Dec 20 2013 09:47 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I didn't declare them guilty (because they're not guilty of breaking any rules. Not even Barry Bonds.) I declared them all users.
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| metsmarathon Dec 20 2013 10:34 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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if tthat is truly the case with some of the writers, that they're out there thinking, "oh, gee, if only he would just deny using them i could vote for him with a clear conscience" then the voters are the simply the dumbest bags of rocks out there. you know who denied steroid use? barry bonds and roger clemens. if all it takes is a denial, vote their asses in. the opposite standard, of course, will be used for pettitte. "oh, gee, he admitted using it (just that one time, he promised, and only to nobly to make him better - from injury of course - and apologized for it), so i can vote for him with a clear conscience."
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| Ceetar Dec 20 2013 10:39 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't remember who it was, but there was definitely a writer that said they were holding off on Piazza to see if he admitted to anything in the book.
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| Ceetar Dec 20 2013 10:45 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Peter Kerasotis
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 20 2013 12:26 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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So if Pizza gets hit with accusations because he played in a certain era and is assumed to be guilty, why are Maddux, Glavine, Jeter and others presumed to be not guilty?
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| SteveJRogers Dec 20 2013 01:50 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Would not be shocked if he listened too much to the Murray Chasses of the world. Chass pretty much declared that their MUST BE some sort of revelation in the book regarding Piazza being a PED user.
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| SteveJRogers Dec 20 2013 01:57 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Considering the treatment Bagwell and Biggio have gotten as well, I think the writers have answered that, and are throwing a wide blanket over the era. It is possible that besides Glavine and Maddux, the writers could have justified their recent blanketing of the era by saying "no one was really "worthy" of being a First Ballot Hall of Famer until Maddux showed up." Of course I'll keep going back to the idea that makes their stance silly is that; A) how do they arbitrarily decide WHEN the era starts, B) WHEN did it end (and as we are still seeing, I really don't think it HAS ended) and C) how do they know for sure they haven't already inducted a PED user? And I'll go back to players who played in the mid-1970s for whispers and innuendo as opposed to contemporaries of Jose Canseco (though a big one I have in mind did play with Canseco).
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| SteveJRogers Dec 26 2013 08:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Results are starting to trickle in over at Baseball Think Factory's Ballot Collecting Gizmo.
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| Benjamin Grimm Dec 26 2013 10:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Tammy?
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| MFS62 Dec 26 2013 10:49 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think he's saying that Debbie Reynolds didn't use steroids. Later
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| SteveJRogers Dec 26 2013 11:01 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Glavine.
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| MFS62 Dec 29 2013 12:08 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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A writer saying its time for the HOF to do something about steroids.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 29 2013 04:37 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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And Murray Chass continues to be an idiot.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 29 2013 04:42 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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On edit, I read his actual column, which is better than the small -- and awful -- part about the players he "suspects" but has no real proof. He's still an idiot. But the interesting part is about the managers just elected to the hall, and how they owe their championships largely to roided players. Torre's list of users, in particular, is pretty long. [url]http://www.murraychass.com/?p=6984
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 29 2013 04:42 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Accidental double post...
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2013 08:49 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Dan Shaugnessy just made me weep at my desk.
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| SteveJRogers Dec 30 2013 08:58 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I know "consider the source" but Wally Watthews always suspected Thomas with the "me thinks doth protest too much" line of thinking with how much The Big Hurt was anti-PEDs in public statements. Then again Matthews suspected Piazza, Bagwell, Kent, and just about everyone to the point where he and his radio partner, Tom Keegan, once did a "lets do a "Real MVP" award" for each season during the 1990s and somehow Craig Biggio became a multiple time MVP! But the point remains, how can you be so sure your eye test is correct with Piazza and Bagwell, but not with Thomas?
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| Ceetar Dec 30 2013 09:06 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 30 2013 09:31 AM |
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Or Maddux, or Glavine, or Schilling, or Jeter, or Mariano, or Mattingly, or Robbie Alomar or Ricky Henderson, or..
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| SteveJRogers Dec 30 2013 09:09 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Or Reggie Jackson, or Brian Downing, or Pete Rose, or Nolan Ryan, or Cal Ripken, or George Brett...
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2013 09:13 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The quoting tree has been somehow incorrectly pruned, and Steve's words are now in my mouf.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 30 2013 09:30 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Horrible. Absolutely horrible.
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| Ceetar Dec 30 2013 09:31 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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fixed. I never was a good tree pruner.
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| batmagadanleadoff Dec 30 2013 09:32 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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.... or Bud Harrelson.
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2013 09:47 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'm not sure I care that it's subjective. That's why they have a big voting pool. I just care that those subjective standards are consistently applied, and that baseball writers act like the reporters they're supposed to be and pursue actual facts to make their subjective opinions as informed as possible.
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| batmagadanleadoff Dec 30 2013 09:49 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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OE: If Shaq was merely a six-footer, his pure basketball skills wouldn't have gotten him onto the warm part of the bench on his High School team.
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2013 09:53 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The shunning seems far too lazy to qualify as witch hunting.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 30 2013 10:18 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'd love to hear how the "know it when I see it" test applies to Curt Schilling. And I'd like to hear him make that case without insulting the "stat heads," as he did in this column.
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2013 10:21 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I need to get out into the sun!
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 30 2013 06:34 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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A disgraceful column from a disgraced -- [url]http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/08/espn-fires-rob-parker/ -- columnist. How does Rob Parker have a HOF vote?
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| Frayed Knot Dec 30 2013 06:43 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah Parker's been an idiot on more than a few occasions (he was writing for NEWSDAY for a short spell) but there's actually more in his piece there that I agree with than disagree.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 30 2013 06:45 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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My frustration is that he automatically dismisses Piazza -- and others -- simply because he didn't get 500 homers or 3,000 hits.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 30 2013 06:51 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think it's a bit early to be panicking over this. The HoF/steroid issue--meaning the era where known 'roiders have been coming up for votes--is only a few years old at this point and I think a lot of the writers are still sorting things out in their own heads. If this is still a muddled issue a decade or so from now then maybe some pow-wow needs to take place. But right now all that has happened is that a handful of players are left waiting longer than they thought based on some choices they made a while back; not something I'm going to lose sleep over.
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| Frayed Knot Dec 30 2013 06:53 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Like I said, I disagree with some of his logic regarding individual choices, but not with his overall philosophy on the big roids issue of the day.
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| Edgy MD Dec 30 2013 07:03 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Problem is that in a decade or so, the window will have closed for many, and quite possibly closed on a player or two or six that are both clean and historically deserving --- or would have been considered deserving in any other context.
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| metsmarathon Dec 31 2013 08:51 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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i don't know how you can really make a sound argument that palmiero's ped use is noticably worse than clemens', bonds', macgwire's, or sosa's, just because he failed a test after testing was made a thing. does that late-career test really undo all that he'd accomplished when roiding up was allowable?
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| Edgy MD Dec 31 2013 08:57 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't think there are many voters who differentiate between a period of "allowable" steroid use and a period of prohibition.
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| metsmarathon Dec 31 2013 09:49 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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well, noted cornball rob parker is one too many already...
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 01 2014 11:31 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Later returns: Piazza off pace. Seaver's Vote % Record in Jeopardy.  http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/new ... ting_gizmo
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 01 2014 04:50 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Who is the idiot spoiling his ballot by writing in Pete Rose. This is why no one will ever get 100 percent. There will always be some knucklehead doing something like that.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 01 2014 05:32 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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In all fairness, whoever did that appears to have also voted for Mr. Maddux. It's more likely to affect legitimate candidates like Raines or Piazza or good ol' Pitches-to-the-Score.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 01 2014 06:19 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That's true in that Maddux doesn't need that vote. But if that ballot gets tossed, Maddux loses the 100 percent.
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| Edgy MD Jan 01 2014 06:34 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The ballot won't and shouldn't get tossed.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 02 2014 11:11 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Murray Chass just keeps getting kookier and kookier...
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| Ceetar Jan 02 2014 11:15 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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refusing to read random internet cranks. feel free to copy paste here.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 02 2014 12:32 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The good thing about there being so many votes for the HoF is that no one guy's ballot, no matter how screwy, can affect things all that much.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 02 2014 01:26 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Having just come from the digital media, we always felt -- and were -- cheated when people cut and paste entire stories from the site. But I'll look for a couple representational paragraphs.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 02 2014 01:31 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Here's one:
I anticipate the day when we demand our star athletes appear shirtless -- and facing away from the camera -- to appease the likes of Murray Chass. Here's the Neyer stuff:
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| Ceetar Jan 02 2014 01:43 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I agree...when it's something worthy of clicks and links although I always favor excerpts so people can get an idea of what they're clicking to. But the only value here is point and laugh value.
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| Ashie62 Jan 02 2014 01:45 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Mike Piazza looked like the Incredible Hulk in the late 90's much like McGwire did. It is not a natural look..
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| Frayed Knot Jan 02 2014 02:02 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I have no problem believing that Piazza took steroids (as I've said before, anyone and everyone is suspect from that era) but parts of what Chass here is basing it on is either demonstrably false or highly speculative.
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| Edgy MD Jan 02 2014 02:17 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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And then he dismisses "bloggers" (Craig Calcaterra) for re-using somebody else's stuff, which he does while citing Craig Calcaterra's blog as a source he feels no need to follow up on.
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| seawolf17 Jan 02 2014 02:35 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Totally agree. Plus he dismisses "bloggers" ON HIS FUCKING BLOG WHICH IS ALL HE HAS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE A REAL JOB. Idiot.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 02 2014 02:43 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I love the whole thing about "this is my last ballot because I'm disgusted by everything but it might not be because I like the fact that I have one and other people don't."
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| Frayed Knot Jan 02 2014 02:47 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I wonder if the writings of say Jim Bouton and others about the rampant use of "greenies" ever informed a Chass ballot?
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| Edgy MD Jan 02 2014 02:54 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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And he cites as "support" a crazed "fan" who wants to carpet bomb the whole process by excluding anybody from the "steroids era" (as if that's got a clear beginning and end), clearly an attitude Chass doesn't share. It's a sad state that has so many acting like such children.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 02 2014 11:50 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Murray's Not-Blog : Blogs :: This Paragraph :: "#sorrynotsorry"/"Obvsly you're just jealous"
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 03 2014 07:22 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Deadspin having fun with Murray Chass
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| Edgy MD Jan 06 2014 08:12 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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With 23.4% counted, Maddux is still at 100%.
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| metsmarathon Jan 06 2014 08:23 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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not that i want to see seaver surpassed, but if maddux does indeed get 100% of the tally, i'll be quite happy, as it might signify the end, or at least the beginning of the end, of hte silliness of not voting for first timers.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 06 2014 05:26 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Ian "Jeter...Jeter...Jeter" O'Connor is tweeting the 14 people he'd vote for A) If he had a ballot, and B) if voters could vote for more than 10.
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 07:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The thing is that most all of those are defensible. I mean, I'd bag Morris and Smith right out, but I wouldn't be embarrassed to vote for any of those others.
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| Nymr83 Jan 07 2014 08:15 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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No morris or smith, but i would also add trammell
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 08:23 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah.
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| seawolf17 Jan 07 2014 08:48 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I've come full circle on Bonds and McGwire -- I think they should be in. It just doesn't make sense to have a Baseball Hall of Fame without them. By that logic, Clemens should be in too, but I hate him with the passion of a thousand fires, so I wouldn't vote for him. And you're right, I could theoretically do that these next few years because there are so many strong candidates. My ten, for reals this time: Craig Biggio Barry Bonds Greg Maddux Mark McGwire Mike Piazza Tim Raines Frank Thomas T#m Gl@v!ne Curt Schilling Jack Morris And I'd be okay with any or all of these guys if I could vote for more: Jeff Bagwell Jeff Kent Edgar Martinez Mike Mussina Sammy Sosa Alan Trammell Larry Walker
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| Mets – Willets Point Jan 07 2014 09:27 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 07 2014 10:00 AM |
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My 10:
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| Vic Sage Jan 07 2014 09:40 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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no Frank Thomas? really? not even on your "if i could vote for more than 10" list?
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| Mets – Willets Point Jan 07 2014 10:00 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Him too. We're just spoiled for choice.
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| HahnSolo Jan 07 2014 10:18 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Pretty sure he does have a ballot:
[url]http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10231471/craig-biggio-tom-glavine-greg-maddux-frank-thomas-elected-espn-2014-baseball-hall-fame-ballot
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 07 2014 11:26 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 07 2014 11:30 AM |
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I misread Ian's tweet.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 07 2014 11:27 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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[url]http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon-heyman/24401353/steroid-users-shouldnt-make-10player-hof-ballot-at-least-not-yet
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| metirish Jan 07 2014 11:28 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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This is just fucking silly
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 07 2014 11:35 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Oh! The process is broken because Greg Maddux won't get in unanimously. But it wasn't broken when Willie Mays didn't get 100% of the vote? Or when Tom Seaver didn't get 100% of the vote. Oh, the humanity. Think of the children.
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| metirish Jan 07 2014 11:36 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Don't really care about Maddux, the guys rational is silly.
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 11:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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In general, the lack of unanimity doesn't bother me. Broad electoral processes should be a mess, with results gathered from a broad range of opinions. The idea that viable candidates --- including and especially "pre-steroid era" rock stars like Alan Trammell and Tim Raines (both better than Morris) --- are utterly lost in the conversation while we rend our shirts over the roid issue year after year, that bothers me.
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 07 2014 11:44 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah, but he's only one guy. I'm wondering if the HOF induction process is really as broken as many seem to claim. It seems to be that they get it right for the most part. I can't think of an eligible Ted Williams or Tom Seaver caliber player who hasn't gotten in. Sure, there are a few HOF'ers who I would exclude and a few on the outside that I'd include. But that's just my POV. And I'm not gonna trash the induction process just because it doesn't jibe perfectly with my personal sensibilities. The process isn't perfect, but it's no more broken than any other voting process, I suppose.
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| SteveJRogers Jan 07 2014 11:48 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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What was Seaver's? 5? Like 3 hardline "I don't vote for First Balloters...ever" asshats and a couple of Rose votes that were thrown out?
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 11:52 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I agree that it's not broken at all. The idea of an election is to get a rational consensus out of by polling a broad enough body all of our flawed perspectives that the particular irrationalities of this voter or that voter is filtered out by (or more accurately, sublimated by) the final process.
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| metirish Jan 07 2014 11:53 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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So, Jack Morris never played in the "steroid era"?...
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 11:56 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't think any Rose ballots were thrown out. (Write-ins are legal, and if ballots were tossed, I imagine they wouldn't be counted.) They may have been blank submissions to protest Rose's exclusion, if that's what you mean.
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 11:57 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think, for most writers who believe there is a hard line, it begins after the strike. Ends with the advent of mandatory testing.
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| SteveJRogers Jan 07 2014 12:16 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah, that's what I meant. That was the first year Rose would have been included so I figured there'd been some sort of protest that first year. I'd love to know when, or if, that practice ever stopped.
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| G-Fafif Jan 07 2014 03:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 08 2014 11:33 AM |
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The writer who didn't vote for Seaver out of first-ballot principle was [crossout]John Drebinger, with the Times from 1923 through 1964, and Spink Award winner the same year Tom won his second Cy Young, 1973.[/crossout] Deane McGowen who wrote for the Times from 1949 to 1981 and covered an array of sports. He admitted Seaver belonged, but you know...can't do a firstie.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 07 2014 03:08 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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FWIW, Nine different NY Post writers have ballots (Nine? ... who knew?) and they made them all public.
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| Mets – Willets Point Jan 07 2014 03:22 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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When does the actual vote tallying and announcement take place?
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 03:27 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Mañana, I think
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| Ceetar Jan 07 2014 03:28 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That's actually surprisingly high given the quality of the paper. wow.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 07 2014 03:43 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Announcement is scheduled for Wednesday at 2 p.m.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 07 2014 04:13 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think last year's non-election despite the plethora of qualified players is more of an indictment. I do think we're seeing more and more people voting for 5 or more players this year. I don't think there will ever be a 100 percent player as long as there are 600 people casting ballots. There are bound to be some self-aggrandizing idiot, and the guy only voting for Morris is a prime example. I'm more outraged by the 20+ guys who didn't vote for Mays or Aaron. Given the era, it suspect they were lacking more than baseball knowledge.
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| SteveJRogers Jan 07 2014 04:16 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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It'd be interesting to see who would have had a higher percentage if that cause hadn't been there.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 07 2014 04:16 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Of course it's more the size of the paper than the quality - but, yeah, I was surprised they had that many as well. Davidoff, King, Sherman & Vaccaro were no-brainers, but I have no idea who Burke is; Puma I wouldn't have thought was on the beat for the required ten years (maybe he wrote for a while under his non-porn name too); and I wouldn't have thought Serby knew what a baseball was much less covered it for a decade.
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 04:32 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't know. Things don't happen until they happen. Black presidents, crumbling Soviet bloc, gay marriage. With ever-increasing pressure to fill out ballots responsibly, and an apparent diminishing (or outright disappearance) of the no first-timers-ever contingent, it is bound to happen in the not-too-distant future with some unimpeachable guy with fine teeth and a caring wife name Tamber. (She's stylish, but not huffy.) But I really don't think it's worth getting enraged about. Willie Mays is still Willie Mays, whether 495 people think so or 497. The benefit of liberally embracing outlying votes far outweigh the alleged insult of non-unanimity. I don't want to seem a Morris hater, but he's gotten really far on that most-wins in the eighties brand. I can probably name 10 starters with cases as good as or stronger than him who get little consideration. David Cone. Kevin Brown. Jerry Koosman. Ron Guidry. Bret Saberhagen. Frank Viola. Dave Fuckin' Steib. Who blinked when Dave Steib got 1.4% of the vote and disappeared from the ballot after 2004? But he had 57 pitching WAR and Jack Morris had 43.8. Tack a dubious 10 WAR onto Morris' career for his post-season heroics, and you're still in a predicament. Steib pitched mostly for a struggling Toronto team in an era of fewer post-season opportunities, and he's still ahead.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2014 05:10 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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So, really, it's not steroid use to which they object, it's presumedly-effective steroid use? Remind me to seek out these guys for my jury if I ever get tried for Attempted Murder. MLB Network has its apparently annual "Hall of Fame Debate"-- featuring SNY's own Ron Darling, writer Ken Rosenthal, America's Wee Little Conscience Bob Costas, and Professional Shouting Chihuahua Chris Russo!-- on at 9 pm tonight, if you feel like a blood pressure raise or laugh.
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 05:14 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, accepting that as true, it's the presumably effective usage that taints the the statistical case of many of these guys, so that's not as illogical as all that.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2014 05:51 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, yeah, except how often do you see a voter publicly address whether PEDs had an actual impact on certain players' performance, and the degree to which it impacted said performance? And how often do you see it couched as a morality issue?
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 06:07 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, it's both --- a morality issue and an integrity issue. And of course they're intertwined. The case that "we can't trust these numbers" is certainly made.
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| Nymr83 Jan 07 2014 07:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Almost all of the arguments I see advancing Morris' case are of the cherrypicking variety; "he was the best at X from arbitrary date A until arbitrary point B" seems to be the most common, which proves only that better pitchers' careers that overlapped with his didn't exactly overlap. but when compared to inducted HOF starters and past near misses his career numbers fall in with the near misses. so the argument for Morris really has to be a lowering of the bar and the opinion that there are another 20+ starters who should have gotten in but didnt.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 07 2014 08:19 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Back to Chass for a minute and his disavowal of any player with tenuous or even rumored steroid connections; it all reminds me of former pitcher Tom House talking about how he and several other early '70s Atlanta Braves were taking all kinds of stuff saying that "performance-enhancing drugs were widespread in baseball in the 1960s and 1970s" and that they were taking 'amphetamines, human growth hormone and "whatever steroid" they could find in order to keep up with the competition'.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 07 2014 08:33 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 08 2014 04:34 AM |
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Well, the Braves moved into a stadium called "The Launching Pad," which probably didn't hurt. (Then again, what year did they move into that stadium? 1968? Several years before the 1973 offensive burst.) Then again, Mantle popped a bunch of homers into that ridiculously short porch in MFYS I. Wonder how many homers Mays lost to that deep centerfield at the Polo Grounds. Davey seems like a "tell it like it is" kind of guy. Has he ever talked about that 43-homer season in relation to PEDs?
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 08:39 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'd add that the cherrypicking argument extends to "he was the best at X from arbitrary date A until arbitrary point B... by the rather arbitrary standard of wins credited." Other outsiders as good as or better: Vida Blue, Dwight Gooden, Mickey Lolich, Dennis Martinez... .
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| Edgy MD Jan 07 2014 08:44 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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As per Tom House, Deadspin posted a serious rip job the other day on a softball ESPN story (not actually about softball) in which Tom House was consulted as a mechanics guru for Tim Tebow, and they called into question whether Tom House was any sort of authority at all --- not because he had a baseball background, but because they never heard of him and they're Googling didn't turn up anything. About 120 readers had to log on and let them know that House was pretty well known in baseball circles, and famously introduced to Nolan Ryan late in his career the notion of training by throwing footballs.
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| Ashie62 Jan 07 2014 08:49 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I wouldn't be opposed to a consensus that PED & Steroid abuse have no bearing on voting for or against a player..
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| Frayed Knot Jan 07 2014 08:56 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That stadium--originally just Atlanta Stadium and later dubbed Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium--was pre-built for the Braves move in 1966. And while it was a good HR park (people forget that, prior to the moves out west to Denver & Phoenix, Atlanta was the ML city at the highest elevation for many years) it wasn't THAT out of the ordinary and it certainly wasn't something that would have suddenly inflated HR stats seven years into its lifespan.
Probably not as many as some of his fans like to think. I've read studies on this before and, IIRC, it's tough to make the case for more than a few dozen in total.
Not that I know of. And there's certainly no upside in ever doing so even for someone as yappy as Davey, particularly since he knows he'd automatically be indicting Aaron just by bringing it up even if he swore while telling the story that Hank never took anything stronger than a milkshake.
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| dinosaur jesus Jan 07 2014 09:48 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Aaron's 1971 season was a little flukey, but it wasn't completely out of nowhere. He'd been benefitting all along from the move to Atlanta. His home runs on the road were almost identical before and after the move (a little under 20 a year, counting from his first 40-homer season in 1957). But his home runs at home went from about 17 a year to over 25. I think that when you take the parks into account, he was pretty much the same hitter all along. It's true you'd expect him to drop off a bit. But in his age 35 season, 1969, not only were the rules changed to benefit the hitters, but in Atlanta the fences were brought in, especially in left center. Whatever the other guys in Atlanta were taking, I don't see anything suspicious in Aaron's stats.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 04:39 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That's interesting. Boy, you add a couple dozen to 660 and you are getting pretty close to 700. Wonder what it would have been like if it had been him and not Aaron chasing Ruth -- or him AND Aaron chasing Ruth!
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| Frayed Knot Jan 08 2014 06:48 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't especially either, I'm just trying to point out that, based on the logic and levels of "proof" being used to disqualify other players, these voters can't stay consistent while giving Hank a pass based on the circumstantial evidence surrounding him. Chass in particular is acting as the hanging judge on Piazza based on less than what I can concoct against Aaron if I were so inclined. Then there's that guy whose ballot listed Morris only based on the idea that, as far as he's concerned, everyone from the steroid era is ineligible!. Given House's admissions, the contemporaneous and somewhat unusual rise in several of his aging teammates, and his comments that numerous guys on all teams in that era were partaking and/or experimenting, does he really want to try and make the case that the "steroid era" has a specifically defined and agreed upon starting and ending point or that Morris didn't at least partially coincide with it? Point also being that if these PED-absolutists are going to cite Brady Anderson's out of the blue 50 HR season as iron-clad proof of his cheating how do they let Davey's '73 season (or Maris's '61 for that matter - he never hit 40 except for that year) pass without comment? Also, staying with the guilt-by-association logic here, considering that there were a dozen major leaguers and various minor league players suspended this past year (hell, a top Minnesota prospect was just nabbed last Saturday) it looks like Miguel Cabrera and Justin Verlander are tainted too because, whenever the steroid era started, it sure ain't over.
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 11:59 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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.
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| Nymr83 Jan 08 2014 12:03 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I am boycotting the HOF until such time as Piazza is in it.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 08 2014 12:04 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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No Biggio either (74.8%).
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2014 12:07 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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If the stupid Mets had a say, Armando wouldn't of even been on the ballot.
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| Gwreck Jan 08 2014 12:08 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Armando got one vote.
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| HahnSolo Jan 08 2014 12:08 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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74.8%???????
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| Nymr83 Jan 08 2014 12:09 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Alou, whose number match up pretty well to Reggie Jackson, is off the ballot.
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 12:09 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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74.8% is tough love.
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| Zvon Jan 08 2014 12:31 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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This is mind boggling. What the hell do you have to do to get in? Grow the fuck up HOF voters.
It was he and Aaron chasing Ruth, and when I became a fan of the game it was Mays who was pegged to pass him (circa 68-69), not Aaron. But Willie fluttered out of the game and Hank kept sluggin'. Henry won the last few laps of that race.
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 12:35 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Korea won a couple of early laps there also.
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| Gwreck Jan 08 2014 12:37 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Get 75%? There are all sorts of problems with Hall of Fame voters but obviously nobody could intend for Biggio to get that exact total. He will get in next year.
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| Gwreck Jan 08 2014 12:38 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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?? Maddux got 97%. Tom's safe until Cap'n Intangibles makes the ballot.
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 12:43 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, then, I mis-read the ballot. Or clicked the wrong link. YAY!!
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| Zvon Jan 08 2014 12:46 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I always felt that if Ripkin didn't top Tom his record would be safe during my lifetime. Jeter will not top Ripkin. You can mark those words.
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| Nymr83 Jan 08 2014 12:52 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Is there an automatic steroid haze surrounding Ken Griffey jr. As well? Elligible in 2 years and once looked like a future unanimous kind of guy
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 12:57 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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If anybody should "look good" it's him. He was great in his 20s and faded, seemingly naturally, in his 30s.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 01:06 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Randy Johnson is next year, with Pedro. Did Johnson have bacne? Someone ask Murray Chass.
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 01:11 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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As much as they pained me year after year after year ... it's
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| Nymr83 Jan 08 2014 01:12 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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How many voters will penalize him for killing that bird?
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 01:12 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Mets just sent out an email congratulating Glavine. Fuck them.
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| Valadius Jan 08 2014 01:14 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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And here we are again. This seems to be an annual exercise in pissing me off.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 08 2014 01:14 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Player (Years on ballot) Total Votes Percentage
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 01:15 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Looks like Dan LeBatard was the guy who gave his vote away to Deadspin.
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 01:21 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Nice.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 08 2014 01:21 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jan 08 2014 01:23 PM |
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They just elected three guys who were absolutely deserving and a bunch of others came close. I don't find this embarrassing at all. It seems like maybe five years ago, and for a long time leading up to then, the consensus among fans was that they were letting guys in too easily.
You really find this objectionable?
Not that it matters in the long run, but I find this more lazy than instructive.
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| Mets – Willets Point Jan 08 2014 01:22 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Did Roger Clemens and Guillermo Mota place severed horse heads in the beds of BBWAA voters or something?
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 08 2014 01:25 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I totally missed the memo outlining why I should dislike Tom Glavine.
Jeff Wilpon likes him! That's good enough for me!
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| Mets – Willets Point Jan 08 2014 01:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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This means you did not read anything I posted on this forum from 2003-2007. I'm hurt. Glavine totally deserves enshrinement though, for what he did with the Braves. I just need any reflected glory for the Mets.
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| metirish Jan 08 2014 01:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Kase is taking the piss, having some fun......
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 01:34 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think the whole "disappointed by not devastated" quote still burns people. But I think his gave us some quality work, including some All-Star Game appearances. He wasn't in his prime, but still a good pitcher. Maybe some people had unrealistic expectations.
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 01:34 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I meant the first sentiment, was joking about the email.
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| G-Fafif Jan 08 2014 01:39 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Of the 8 onetime Mets on the ballot, only Lo Duca got no votes. One for Rogers, one for Benitez (wonder if it was the same writer who voted for J.T. Snow), 6 for Nomo, 6 for Alou, 87 for Kent (15.2%), and we've already noticed how high Piazza wasn't and Gl@vine was.
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| themetfairy Jan 08 2014 01:40 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Joke I saw - Gl@vine's plaque will be 8 inches wider than everyone else's.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 08 2014 01:55 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Now that's funny.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 01:56 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Marty Noble is another guy not voting for anyone from the steroid era. Said he didn't vote for Piazza because of disappearing back hair. Yes, you read that right.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 02:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 08 2014 02:21 PM |
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So Jack Morris and Lee Smith are the elite of the elite and comparable gods?
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 02:17 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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What if it takes social campaigning to clarify that somebody was indeed among the elite of the elite?
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| Valadius Jan 08 2014 02:22 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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THAT is the sentiment that drives me crazier than anything else in this process. If they deserve it, you vote for them. Don't place an artificial cap on your votes. Ugh.
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| Ashie62 Jan 08 2014 02:49 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I have not heard any rumors of abuse by Jr... He looks like a sure thing at least today. I read in ESPN that a Baseball Weekly writer named Pete Williams traveled to interview Caminiti in 1997 and came away with the idea that Piazza was using creatine. Thats news to me if to be believed. Craig Biggio got screwed. 3060 hits, cmon... Nothing else on the ballot surprised me...
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 02:55 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Creatine was a legal over-the-counter dietary supplement. Whatever its merits and demerits, it's far from the same category as HGH.
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| Ceetar Jan 08 2014 02:58 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, Androstenedione is a little more than Creatine, but also was legal and basically over the counter too no? How many team trainers probably swore by the stuff? especially for power guys?
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 03:02 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I was writing stories about high school students using it openly. It was right there on the shelves of GNC.
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 03:03 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Piazza moved up in voting %, he'll get in the next year or so. It's
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 03:13 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Andro is meaningfully different. I don't know how how many trainers swore by the stuff. How many do you know of?
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| Ceetar Jan 08 2014 03:27 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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well, Piazza admitted to it was why I mentioned it. I was just speculating that it seemed fairly rampant (Bonds and McGuire both took it too I think) among the slugger type. I suspect when creating workout routines, it was probably a popular suggestion from trainers, guys like Greg Anderson. But maybe that's only the sleezy trainers that will do whatever you want, not the ones that are telling you about how that stuff's bad for you. What do I know? here's an interesting article from '99. [url]http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/11/sports/baseball-andro-hangs-in-a-quiet-limbo.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Actually, the Piazza quote is in there too, and matches what he said in the book.
Here's Tony Gwynn (hey, he's in the Hall of Fame ain't he?) suggesting that maybe in a pinch the pros outweight the cons.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 03:29 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The Deadspin/Lebatard ballot:
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| Ashie62 Jan 08 2014 03:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I believe Andro was banned by the NCAA at that time...
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| Ashie62 Jan 08 2014 03:36 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Piazza may have peaked out already vote wise.. You have Randy Johnson, Pedro and some biggies coming up next year which will not help Piazza if the most you can pick is 10... Beyond one writer I believe there is a perception that Mikey was a user and I believe that was reflected in the vote.....
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 03:44 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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We'll see!
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| Gwreck Jan 08 2014 03:57 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Looks just about perfect to me. Might have gone with Trammell instead of Edgar but that's an excellent vote.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2014 04:03 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Hell, it's better than most of the ballots cast!
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| Frayed Knot Jan 08 2014 04:21 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The thing is, if LeBatard is abdicating his vote in some sort of attempt to make a point about the balloting process (assuming that's what he's doing) it's a shame that he doesn't have a national radio program, a national television program, and a newspaper column to lobby for those changes.
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| d'Kong76 Jan 08 2014 04:43 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'd take the ballots away from the BBWAA. Problem is, I have no
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| Ceetar Jan 08 2014 07:05 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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for polling the fans, the people who are the ones that are supposed to come and celebrate the hall, to make his selections?
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| Nymr83 Jan 08 2014 07:23 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah. I don't want to see a fan vote filling the hall with Yankees. I think the media is fine, but I'd change the criteria to reflect modern realities, I would add broadcasters as well using similar criteria that the writers have. possibly players/coaches. fans would be fine, but it would have to be in such a way as to not stuff the ballot box all-star game style. maybe the fans of each team get 10 ballots (so 300 total out of a pool of say 1000-1200 once i add everyone above) and those ballots can only be filled out by voting at in-stadium kiosks that scan your ticket to ensure one vote per person per game. all 10 of that team's fans' ballots would cast a vote for anyone who topped 75% in that year's fan voting at the stadium.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 08 2014 07:42 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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He's not merely polling the fans, he's abdicating his vote. The vote is an earned privilege and if his idea of using that vote is to give it away to someone else in some sort of childish protest against how things are set up then, yeah, I'd take it away from him. Like I said, it's not like the guy doesn't have SEVERAL nationals forums to air views if he wants to lobby for changes.
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| Ceetar Jan 08 2014 08:04 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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if by abdicating you mean binding, sure. If they told him to vote for Jack Morris he would've. The whole point is that the "earned privilege" thing is bs. So many have abused said privilege and so many others deserve it and don't get it for whatever reason. Modernize or die out. I think it's very enlightening, and something that would not have gotten nearly the attention it did if he just campaigned on his own forums. Plenty of people did that too, but to give it up to the fans, and pretty snarky ones at that, and have them actually cast a legitimate ballot and one of the better ones? They're in a sticky situation now though. Even if they try to revoke his vote that sets the stage for revoking other votes and modernizing the whole process by kicking out people that don't follow the sport anymore. But it also opens the door to selling votes for real in the future for similar reasons. And there is really nothing they can do about it because if this guy didn't agree to have his name known, they'd never have known who did it.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 08 2014 08:23 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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By abdicating I mean he's not taking the trouble to fill out a ballot himself. It's one thing to talk to others in order to get a better idea of who is more deserving. It's quite another to just say, 'I can't be bothered, here let someone else do it'.
What is "abusing the privilege" ... not voting the way you or I would? I'd like to see Tim Raines in but 50% or more of the voters have consistently disagreed with me over the last decade or more so I'm just going to have to live with that. And at least those who vote for the wrong guys or for what you and I might consider the wrong reasons are taking the trouble to actually do it.
What was "enlightening" about this -- that some group of fans could fill out a ballot if you gave it to them? I think I could have figured that out going in. Other than that, what was his point and what did he prove? Again, instead of working to change whatever it is he doesn't like about the current process (if that's even his complaint ... I don't know) he simply punted. Why, if I were the BBWAA, would I mail him a ballot next season after that?
I don't understand a word of this.
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| Nymr83 Jan 08 2014 09:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Voting for any reason other than the baseball careers of the players on the ballot, such as: submitting empty ballots because of Pete Rose, not voting for anyone who played after an arbitrary date because hte sport was not clean (as if it ever was), selling your vote, giving away your vote, not taking your vote seriously enough to do the work. oh and Ballots MUST be made public... if you cant stand behind your vote you should be forced to give it up, because you are being given the privilege of voting on behalf of all baseball fans who deserve to know who and why.
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| Edgy MD Jan 08 2014 09:35 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'd suggest that "not voting for anyone who played after an arbitrary date because the sport was not clean (as if it ever was)" IS "voting for baseball careers of the players on the ballot," whether we like the way they voted for it or not.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 09 2014 06:19 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Voting for any reason other than the baseball careers of the players on the ballot -- That the vote should consider a player's sportsmanship and integrity is written into the standards to be considered. To what degree a voter chooses to do so is up to that individual but that's what difference of opinion is all about. In the most recent few years as the first crew from the '90s steroid era start to come up this issue is a major part of the debate but you can't just label it abuse when someone following the instructions as written doesn't come out with the same answer as you. such as: submitting empty ballots because of Pete Rose -- which happened with what, three guys a quarter century ago? not voting for anyone who played after an arbitrary date because hte sport was not clean (as if it ever was) -- I certainly think that's stupid, I'm not sure it's abuse selling your vote, giving away your vote, not taking your vote seriously enough to do the work. -- This is my very point with LeBatard. He didn't sell his vote but he certainly did the other two ... and I'm STILL not sure what his point is. oh and Ballots MUST be made public... if you cant stand behind your vote you should be forced to give it up, because you are being given the privilege of voting on behalf of all baseball fans who deserve to know who and why. -- Fine, but then what? Or we going to decide (and who would decide?) that not liking how someone voted could then be termed "abuse"? Look, if someone wants to suggest changes to the system in order to make it better, I'm all ears. But the arguments have to be better than: 'I don't like the results therefore the system suxx', or, 'the writers are idiots so let's get someone else' as if the flaws, biases, or odd logic of some in that group are magically going to be absent from whatever gang is picked to replace them.
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 06:26 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Forcing public ballots certainly seems against the spirit of the thing. Think about it for a bit, and you'll conclude that it'll almost certainly lead to unintended worse consequences.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 09 2014 07:37 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Verducci reveals his ballot. No Piazza, no explanation of why. Voted for McGriff just so he wouldn't fall off the ballot.
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| Ceetar Jan 09 2014 07:53 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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There have been a billion suggestions to make it better including things like
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 08:30 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Why do you say this? It's an amazing contention.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2014 08:33 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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It does seem unlikely that there would be much of a black market for Hall-of-Fame votes.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 09 2014 08:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think Craig Biggio will like to buy at least two more ballots.
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| Ceetar Jan 09 2014 08:43 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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did you read the deadspin article? Where it mentions that they had other conversations with other voters that didn't quite work out and that they intend to do this again?
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| MFS62 Jan 09 2014 08:47 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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What about Mets fans buying ballots on the black market to protect Seaver's percent-of-vote record when Jeter and Rivera become eligible? Later
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| metirish Jan 09 2014 08:50 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Frank Thomas
Hold on a sec, am I expected to believe that Thomas has no whiff of use about him?, fucking guy had arms like tree trunks.... Davidoff thinks this all big hurts Piazza http://nypost.com/2014/01/08/unfair-ped ... t-of-hall/
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| Frayed Knot Jan 09 2014 09:14 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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* getting rid of the integrity clause -- yeah, because if there's one thing I don't want in my sports hall of fame it's integrity
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| metsmarathon Jan 09 2014 09:18 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Going back to creatine... That's still perfectly legal in terms of baseball and the IOC, right? If so, what's the problem? Are contact lenses next? What about laser eye surgery?
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 09:21 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yes.
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| Nymr83 Jan 09 2014 09:56 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Who gives a shit about the IOC? Unless a substance was either banned by MLB or illegal in the United States (MLB should not need to explicitly ban those) nobody should ever suffer for having taken it.
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 10:36 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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You're going to have to ask Ashie. He introduced it as a concern on the previous page, unless he meant to reference a different substance and accidentally mentioned Creatine instead.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2014 11:18 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Saw this interesting tidbit in an Associated Press article:
That means that after the generation of starters that included Seaver, Carlton, Palmer, and Sutton, there's a long gap before another Hall of Fame starting pitcher came along. Gooden and Valenzuela are the pitchers that come immediately to mind when I think of the top pitchers from the time period between Blyleven and Maddux. And of course, Jack Morris has been discussed a lot lately. Who else?
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| MFS62 Jan 09 2014 11:33 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Here are some recent pitchers who are not in the Hall. None of them ever won a Cy Young Award. The list is in decending fWAR order. From what I read about it, fWAR is a good way of evaluating pitchers, based on some Fangraphs metrics. Still struggling to understand it. Mike Mussina Curt Schilling Kevin Brown Rick Reuschel Luis Tiant Tommy John Andy Pettitte Frank Tanana Jerry Koosman Dave Stieb Kevin Appier David Wells Wilbur Wood Jamie Moyer Later
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 11:40 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I named a bunch above, many of whom were as good as or better than Jack Morris. In addition to those noted by MFS, there are Roger Clemens, David Cone, Ron Guidry, Bret Saberhagen, Frank Viola, Vida Blue, Dwight Gooden, Mickey Lolich, Dennis Martinez, Mario Soto, John Candeleria, Rick Sutcliffe, Orel Hershiser.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2014 11:43 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Some of those pitchers debuted before Blyleven (like Lolich and, perhaps, Blue) but most do fall into that Blyleven-Maddux gap.
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| dinosaur jesus Jan 09 2014 11:54 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'm not sure how you define "between Blyleven and Maddux." Blyleven's last year was 1992, and Maddux's was 1986. Younger than Blyleven and older than Maddux? A lot of the top pitchers from that time seem to fall just short of Hall of Fame numbers. Saberhagen. Cone. Viola. Reuschel. Dennis Martinez. Stieb. Guidry. One or two more big seasons and they'd all be viable candidates. There's also, well, Roger Clemens.
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| metsmarathon Jan 09 2014 12:17 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 09 2014 12:22 PM |
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Well I only bring up the IOC for the purpose of demonstrating the full ok-ness of creatine as a supplement which the taking of by baseball players should not be cause of existential concern. If a substance is not explicitly illegal and punishable, then I'm ok with players who take it. And really, even players who have been busted for peds shoud not be forever blacklisted from hoc inclusion. It's ridiculous to accept all other forms of cheating but this (and specifically just the steroids and steroids like) cheating is super bad. Also. Is hgh worse cheating thn steroids? I think it should be viewed as lesser cheating if you're wont to have levels of cheating. It's a different beast. Likely more akin to greenie-cheating In terms of what it ultimately does to a players overall stat line. And what also to do with the abuse of Ritalin and other add drugs?
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2014 12:20 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The paragraph I quoted says that it's going by debut dates. Blyleven debuted in 1970 and Maddux in 1986.
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| metsmarathon Jan 09 2014 12:23 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I wonder how the advent of the steroid era impacted the hof candidacy of those pitchers betwixt blyleven and maddux
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 01:19 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'm not sure, but I think Bobby Valentine just threw President Bush under the bus.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 09 2014 01:19 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Dan Lebatard stripped of his Hall of Fame vote in wake of Deadspin deal, tweets Rubin.
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| d'Kong76 Jan 09 2014 01:32 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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*golf clap*
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 01:36 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Suspended by the BBWAA for a year, too. And with that go his ballpark media credentials. Ka-POW!
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 09 2014 01:38 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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LOLeBatard
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| Frayed Knot Jan 09 2014 01:41 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Eh, LeBatard works primarily for ESPN these days, that alone pretty much keeps him out of the baseball loop anyway.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 09 2014 01:45 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 09 2014 06:47 PM |
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The NY Post concocts a list of the ten worst players to a receive one or more HoF votes and "shockingly" comes up with Armando Benitez as the worst ever.
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| seawolf17 Jan 09 2014 02:20 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That's just obnoxious. I'm coming to hate everything about this whole process.
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 02:39 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Yeah, it'd be nice if a process with the purported purpose of honoring people could have just a little bit of grace around it.
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| Edgy MD Jan 09 2014 03:58 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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| Mets – Willets Point Jan 09 2014 05:24 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Brilliant!
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| Gwreck Jan 10 2014 10:35 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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HOF has released some additional voters' ballots here.
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| LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 10 2014 10:49 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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In all fairness to Hoppel and Cunningham, Bagwell-not-Thomas has some merit: Bagwell's peak was a little bit more peak-y (48.2 top-7-seasons fWAR vs. 45.3), and he provided a little more career value (79.5 fWAR to 73.6)-- including a bunch more than Thomas' from the defensive/baserunning arenas-- over a much shorter time.
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| G-Fafif Jan 10 2014 11:11 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Rocca followed Bobby V to the Chiba Lotte Marines as his Jay Horwitz, so maybe there's something about Nomo's role as a pioneer in the US that appealed to him. That's the only reason I can come up with for any vote for Nomo, two no-hitters and fantastic rookie season notwithstanding. But why he'd omit Maddux is a mystery (unless he was protecting the 98.84% legacy, in which case, what a great voter!).
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 10 2014 11:20 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Nomo has some historical significance pioneering the modern global player market but yeah, kinda weird.
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| Ceetar Jan 10 2014 11:20 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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He explained on facebook and someone tweeted. Nomo he felt because he came from Japan and was a pioneer and presumed clean, by him, that that's good. Glavine and Maddux on the other hand, those bums, didn't use their connections to clean up the game, so as guilty as everyone else that played during that time.
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| G-Fafif Jan 10 2014 11:36 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I can think of 25 players Gl@v!ne kept from sullying the postseason one year.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 10 2014 11:38 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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One could argue that Morris also played in part of the steroid era and I don't recall him being outspoken on that issue, though certainly on others.
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| Gwreck Jan 10 2014 11:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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It's not arguable. Morris played in the steroid era. Right in the middle of it. So did Trammell and Raines, for that matter.
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| SteveJRogers Jan 10 2014 11:44 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Did he vote for Fernando Valenzuela? Granted El Torro was far from a trailblazer, but you could argue having a better start and bigger impact on transcending the popular culture zeitgeist than Nomo. FWIW, its possible he did, and/or many that felt the way I laid it out, as Valenzuela managed to last two years on the ballot! 2003 BBWAA ( 6.2%) 2004 BBWAA ( 3.8%)
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 10 2014 11:45 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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When is the beginning of the steroid era? I'm inclined to put it somewhere around 1987, when there was talk of a "juiced ball" and Lenny Dykstra showed up for spring training all bulked up.
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| SteveJRogers Jan 10 2014 11:46 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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How about with Brian Downing (suspected) and Tom House (admitted) in the 1970s?
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| Gwreck Jan 10 2014 12:20 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I think that's a fair definition, even though it's likely there was plenty of steroid use before then.
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| Edgy MD Jan 10 2014 12:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I'm not sure I understand the term. It's pretty debatable.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 10 2014 01:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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So all these guys who won't vote for anyone in the steroid era. This means they're not voting for the sainted Jeter and Rivera either? Verducci will be spewing something then, and it won't be soft rain.
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| seawolf17 Jan 10 2014 01:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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They better sure as hell not.
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| metsmarathon Jan 10 2014 01:02 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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i would be willing to accept some sort of game-theory answer on voting for marginal players as opposed to top-line players who all the other voters would be voting for, with the intent of ensuring they hang around the ballot for just a little bit longer until such time as there's a less meaty ballot to weigh. though unless the guys you're not voting for are such "first-ballot locks" as maddux and the like, this strategy could easily backfire into more of a logjam if enough voters were to try it. not voting for maddux because he could've spoken up more is stupid. they all could have. in fact every player since the dawn of hte players union is at fault for not ensuring that their house is clean, be it from greenies, steroids, anything. there's blood on ALL of their hands. where was the leadership in the supposed "pre-steroid" era to get the amphetamines out of the game? why didn't they lock down the doors at the first hints of steroids as a performance enhancer back in the 70s (and probably sooner)? fucking utter bullshit. to hold this current crop of hall of fame candidates at fault for the history of the league and the players association and, hell, all of human history and human nature, is bullshit. especially when those who could have been the voice of the public, could have spoken up at any point. but none of the writers did, did they?
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 10 2014 01:14 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Heck, here is a list of hall the writers who sounded the alarm:
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| Edgy MD Jan 10 2014 01:23 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Well, playing Rocca here for a minute, I imagine the thinking is that, yes, they all could've, but he voted against everyone except three who secured their legacies before the strike and one who was new to the league and spoke little English.
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| G-Fafif Jan 10 2014 01:24 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Bryan Curtis on the silent alarms: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/102 ... teroid-era
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| Frayed Knot Jan 10 2014 01:40 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I suspect some of this "not speaking up" stuff is slyly being directed at Glavine on account of his being one of the top dogs within the Player's Association during a chunk of his career.
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| Edgy MD Jan 13 2014 01:42 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Slow down, little girl.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 13 2014 01:54 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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lololololollllollol. GENIUS
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| Edgy MD Jan 13 2014 01:58 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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It is genius. What a vocabulary that guy has. Given sometimes as little as a second to embody a guy, one small hand gesture or bat loop or eye squint does the trick.
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| Edgy MD Jan 13 2014 02:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I just rewatched and didn't get the ending until now.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 13 2014 02:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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| G-Fafif Jan 13 2014 03:06 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That got better and better until it couldn't get any better...and then it did anyway.
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| Zvon Jan 13 2014 04:58 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Absolutely classic. Big laugh at Clemens. He knows his shit. Those kids were great too.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 23 2014 01:29 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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LaRussa and Maddux to have "blank" caps on the Hall of Fame plaques.
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| Edgy MD Jan 23 2014 02:04 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Maddux? Strange.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 23 2014 02:26 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Divided allegiances between Cubs and Braves?
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| Edgy MD Jan 23 2014 02:32 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I would guess that, like Gary Carter in the Mets cap, there's just too much Chicago-based money available to allow yourself to be represented as a Brave in perpetuity.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 23 2014 02:33 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Cox and Glavine will have Atlanta caps on their plaques. Torre a Yankee, Thomas a White Sock.
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| TransMonk Jan 23 2014 02:53 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Blank? Ugh.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 23 2014 02:58 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't care at all about hats on plaques. So dumb! The real challenge is getting the guys' face right.
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| MFS62 Jan 23 2014 03:26 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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In the case of Joe Torre, I'm not sure they will want to be all that accurate. Later
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| HahnSolo Jan 23 2014 03:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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11 full years as a Brave, 8 full seasons but parts of 10 with the Cubs. But yeah, I would have thought he'd go in as a Brave.
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 23 2014 04:23 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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This business with the which cap on the plaque is so antiquated. And stupid. Players like Greg Maddux have to make a zero sum choice between teams that they've played on for significant portions of their careers and made meaningful contributions to their history. Why not ditch the plaques for some computerized plasma screen for each player? With changing images. Depicting the HOF'er in every phase of his career. So that his whole career is represented?
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| SteveJRogers Jan 23 2014 04:35 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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For obvious reasons baseball is the only one of the big four Halls where this tends to be an issue
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| batmagadanleadoff Jan 23 2014 04:40 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Having never been to either the Basketball or Football Halls of Fame, I can't figure out what your trying to say, or what those pictures depict.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 23 2014 05:19 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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In a world where Oscar Gamble is in the HoF and Cooperstown displayed busts without hats, would his be carved with a giant afro?
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| Ceetar Jan 23 2014 05:30 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Makes sense to me. And often times these decisions reflect back to the team. If Maddux chooses a Cubs hat for instance, does he still get hired by the Braves to do things? Or vice versa? If he's looking to get in the radio booth one day, does having the wrong cap reflect badly on his chances to get the job? Well, still better than setting fire to the woods behind your house I guess.
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| Zvon Jan 23 2014 05:59 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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So basically "off with their hats!" Thats a tough sell for a few reasons. I would endorse hats on if the choice was left in the players hands. Since its not I have np with hats off. Cept for Piazza. And Wright.
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| SteveJRogers Jan 23 2014 07:01 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Sadly no to Riggins 
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| SteveJRogers Jan 23 2014 07:07 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Warren Sapp's braids did make it though...
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| Frayed Knot Jan 28 2014 10:23 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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The "fact" that Piazza was a player who "sucked" until suddenly becoming a late bloomer as a power hitter gets further rebuttal over at Amazin' Avenue
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| Edgy MD Jan 28 2014 10:41 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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That's good stuff.
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| Mets – Willets Point Jan 28 2014 11:19 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I had back acne in high school as well as chest acne although oddly very little face acne. Got treated with accutane which cleared it all up. My father still had back/chest acne well into his adulthood. Neither of us used steroids.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 28 2014 11:35 AM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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If facene were a byproduct of my steroid use, I'd have hit 500 home runs by age 17.
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| Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 28 2014 12:32 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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Poor Broadway Joe is next to an (alleged) double-murderer. Ick.
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| Zvon Jan 28 2014 08:59 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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I don't like this business with no logo at all on the hat. That's a horrible call IMO. If they can't choose, or if they will just be doing that to players on more than one team, they should just have them hat-less.
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| Edgy MD Jan 28 2014 09:37 PM Re: Mike & The Mikettes: 2014 HOF Ballot |
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He's a catcher. No need to depict an insignia.
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