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If Eric Young can play second base...

Benjamin Grimm Dec 04 2013 08:08 PM

...can he also play shortstop?

Edgy MD Dec 04 2013 09:16 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

If he could, I would imagine he would have by now. But in nine years of pro ball, he hasn't appeared there yet. I'm led to conclude (and my eyeballs would support this) that the arm just isn't there.

Centerfield Dec 05 2013 07:09 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

I wondered that last season. That's why I thought it would have been great to see how he did there during those meaningless games so we'd have some gauge. We got nothing out of the time given to Omar Quintanilla.

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2013 07:14 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

If a player CAN play shortstop there's no way that his teams along the way (amateur, minor league, or otherwise) would opt to NOT play him at SS.

Ceetar Dec 05 2013 08:11 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

I'm not convinced he can play second base. or LF for that matter. he's a bench guy.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 05 2013 08:40 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Well, I've read that second base is his "natural position." I assume they know that because they tested his DNA.

Ashie62 Dec 06 2013 01:47 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

The Cubs are actively shopping SP Jeff Samardzjia.... The Ivy of Wrigley may be calling

Frayed Knot Dec 06 2013 02:50 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

I'll take non-sequiturs for $400 Alex.

sharpie Dec 06 2013 03:22 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

If Jeff Samardzija can pitch...maybe he can play shortstop.

Frayed Knot Dec 06 2013 04:54 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

sharpie wrote: If Jeff Samardzija can pitch...maybe he can play shortstop. Maybe playing tight end will help him play shortstop.

Ashie62 Dec 06 2013 05:02 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Frayed Knot wrote: I'll take non-sequiturs for $400 Alex. Referring to Eric Young at and Murphy maybe leaving by trade. I should have been more specific... You don't have to be mean..

Frayed Knot Dec 07 2013 07:06 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Relax ace. It was a joke based on me not knowing where you were going with the Samardzija comment. But now that we're on the subject: Murphy may very well get traded (for Samardzija? ... hmmmmm) but if he does I don't think it's going to strictly to make room for Eric Young. I suspect the club likes EYJr more as a 4th OFer and/or all-around versatile sub than as a starting 2Bman

Ashie62 Dec 07 2013 08:44 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Personally..I'd rather have Murphy at 2B over Young but only one is tradeable...Muffy...

Edgy MD Dec 07 2013 08:50 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

I don't see why that should be true. Young was tradeable enough mid-season when he was playing terribly for the Rockies. Why should he be un-tradeable after rebounding to salvage his season and win a stolen base title?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 07 2013 08:59 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

In a "bounce-back year," EY also posted negative offensive AND defensive value. We can trade him, sure, in the same sense that we can all achieve our dreams, if only we put our minds to it. Are we looking to get Collin McHugh back or something?

Edgy MD Dec 07 2013 09:16 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

You're putting "bounce-back year" in quotes, but I spoke of his performance after the trade that brought him to the Mets, during which he did demonstrate positive value.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 07 2013 10:26 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

0.9 WAR, bbRef-wise, virtually all of it with baserunning/double-play avoidance. Batting- and glove-wise, he was still below-replacement-level. Prorated over a whole season, that would be 1.5 WAR; that hypothetical season would be only the second (out of 7) in his career during which he posted ANY net-positive value above replacement-level.

Edgy MD Dec 08 2013 05:23 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

I make no claim otherwise.

smg58 Dec 08 2013 10:45 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

It's worth pointing out that Young had very negative defensive numbers during his tenure in Colorado last year, and that the defensive metrics of Rockies' outfielders generally improve when they change teams (Fangraphs has had several articles on that, the most recent coming when Fowler got traded). UZR pegged Young at a -6 in right field last year (that's where he was mostly playing with the Rockies, despite not having the arm for it) and a +4 in left (mostly with the Mets), while the Fielding Bible had him at -4 and +3 (I don't remember the exact number, but his FB rating in left was negative for the season when he arrived here in June). He also put up strongly positive metrics in center in 2012. I would make the argument that left field is not where you really want to stick a guy with a .650 OPS, but I think the notion that his outfield glove was valueless is misleading -- especially when he replaced somebody who put up a -12 (12 runs is roughly three wins) in less than 500 innings in left. As for second base, Murphy has put up a -24 (from the Fielding Bible) over two full seasons. If second is Young's natural position, he should be able to do at least that "well."

Edgy MD Dec 08 2013 02:07 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Edgy MD wrote: I make no claim otherwise. Except I'm not counting no seven seasons.

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 08:18 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: 0.9 WAR, bbRef-wise, virtually all of it with baserunning/double-play avoidance. Batting- and glove-wise, he was still below-replacement-level. Prorated over a whole season, that would be 1.5 WAR; that hypothetical season would be only the second (out of 7) in his career during which he posted ANY net-positive value above replacement-level. AND last year seemingly every Met added value with the baserunning. (6.4 for Murphy, 0.7 for Davis. ) Clearly the Mets had some sort of organizational focus there that worked out, which while doesn't negate Young's value there, but does mean that a lot of the value Young added would've be translated to the person who replaced him, supposing it was anyone but like Lucas Duda (and hell, maybe it can negate some deficiencies that have him sap almost all, or all depending how you measure, his offensive prowess?)

metirish Dec 09 2013 08:29 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

We may well have to live with Tejada at SS Alderson said at the winter meetings.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 08:57 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

I like Tom Goodwin as much as anybody, but I think it's highly speculative that Young's baserunning value is entirely or even mostly a result of an easily reproducable dose of organization coaching. I don't get it. The case against Young is clear and not particularly weak. Why should we stretch so to augment it?

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 09:03 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Edgy MD wrote: I like Tom Goodwin as much as anybody, but I think it's highly speculative that Young's baserunning value is entirely or even mostly a result of an easily reproducable dose of organization coaching. I don't get it. The case against Young is clear and not particularly weak. Why should we stretch so to augment it. because people suggest Young should be a regular player, therefore there's never enough evidence to put forth. The Mets WERE a much better baserunning team as a whole. Perhaps this is totally random fluctuation and luck, but I doubt it's ALL luck. And it's probably not just Goodwin, Teufel making the right calls at third base on send/stay adds value too. Besides, I'm not saying most of his value was reproducible via coaching, but even some makes an already limited usefulness player into one slightly less useful.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 09:39 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Ceetar wrote: because people suggest Young should be a regular player, I'm not sure which people you're speaking of, but the case for Young as a regular player begins and ends with "unless there's somebody better available. Ceetar wrote: therefore there's never enough evidence to put forth. What about bad evidence? Should manipulated, cherry-picked and distorted evidence be welcome because he's just such a disaster that the end of his tenure justifies it all? Ceetar wrote: The Mets WERE a much better baserunning team as a whole. Wonderful. Ceetar wrote: Perhaps this is totally random fluctuation and luck, but I doubt it's ALL luck. I'm not sure why you're capitalizing that "ALL." It suggests a nonexistent argument that people who disagree with you are making. Nobody, of course is making. Ceetar wrote: And it's probably not just Goodwin, Teufel making the right calls at third base on send/stay adds value too. And probably the players too. Ceetar wrote: Besides, I'm not saying most of his value was reproducible via coaching... "Clearly the Mets had some sort of organizational focus there that worked out, which while doesn't negate Young's value there, but does mean that a lot of the value Young added would've be translated to the person who replaced him, supposing it was anyone but like Lucas Duda (and hell, maybe it can negate some deficiencies that have him sap almost all, or all depending how you measure, his offensive prowess?)" As maddening as that sentence is to parse, it really really really seems to say something like this. Ceetar wrote: ...but even some makes an already limited usefulness player into one slightly less useful. Yes, coaching makes people better. On this we agree. But of all the Mets, only one won the National League stolen base championship.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 09:39 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Ceetar wrote: because people suggest Young should be a regular player, I'm not sure which people you're speaking of, but the case for Young as a regular player begins and ends with "unless there's somebody better available." Ceetar wrote: therefore there's never enough evidence to put forth. What about bad evidence? Should manipulated, cherry-picked and distorted evidence be welcome because he's just such a disaster that the end of his tenure justifies it all? Ceetar wrote: The Mets WERE a much better baserunning team as a whole. Wonderful. Ceetar wrote: Perhaps this is totally random fluctuation and luck, but I doubt it's ALL luck. I'm not sure why you're capitalizing that "ALL." It suggests a nonexistent argument that people who disagree with you are loudly making. Nobody, of course, is claiming this at all. Ceetar wrote: And it's probably not just Goodwin, Teufel making the right calls at third base on send/stay adds value too. And probably the players too. Ceetar wrote: Besides, I'm not saying most of his value was reproducible via coaching... Ceetar: "Clearly the Mets had some sort of organizational focus there that worked out, which while doesn't negate Young's value there, but does mean that a lot of the value Young added would've be translated to the person who replaced him, supposing it was anyone but like Lucas Duda (and hell, maybe it can negate some deficiencies that have him sap almost all, or all depending how you measure, his offensive prowess?)" As maddening as that sentence is to parse, it really really really seems to say something like this. Ceetar wrote: ...but even some makes an already limited usefulness player into one slightly less useful. Yes, coaching makes people better. On this we agree. But of all the Mets, all exposed to the same coaches, and of all the other talented players in the league with many coaches and organizational philosophies good and bad, only one won the National League stolen base championship.

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 09:45 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

"...but even some makes an already limited usefulness player into one slightly less useful." correct. This is based on data. The Mets as a whole were better at baserunning. This is not distorted or manipulated evidence. It's truth. There ARE people suggesting Young should play second base. This threads mere existence suggests it. I am merely pointing out that there is evidence pointing to a an organizational aim on baserunning that boosted the value of that skill for all Mets players, and Young, as the fastest, benefited the most from it and as such, his value is artificially high. I mean, isn't this thread primarily to talk about Eric Young's value? isn't that what I'm doing?

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 10:12 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

ceetar wrote: ...but even some makes an already limited usefulness player into one slightly less useful." correct. This is based on data. The Mets as a whole were better at baserunning. Are you really quoting yourself for the purpose of agreeing with yourself? ceetar wrote: There ARE people suggesting Young should play second base. This threads mere existence suggests it. Who in this thread has suggested it? ceetar wrote: I mean, isn't this thread primarily to talk about Eric Young's value? isn't that what I'm doing? It seems to be clearly presented to inquire about whether he can play shortstop.

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 10:44 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Edgy MD wrote: ceetar wrote: ...but even some makes an already limited usefulness player into one slightly less useful." correct. This is based on data. The Mets as a whole were better at baserunning. Are you really quoting yourself for the purpose of agreeing with yourself? ceetar wrote: There ARE people suggesting Young should play second base. This threads mere existence suggests it. Who in this thread has suggested it? ceetar wrote: I mean, isn't this thread primarily to talk about Eric Young's value? isn't that what I'm doing? It seems to be clearly presented to inquire about whether he can play shortstop. yes. Am I only allowed to talk about opinions in this thread? small sample there.. Working on a false assumption.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 10:57 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

I don't understand that post, sir. (I strive for clarity and enlightenment, only to find out I don't understand anything at all.)

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 11:03 AM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Edgy MD wrote: None of that makes sense, sir. I strive for clarity and enlightenment, only to find out I don't understand anything. I'll simplify. No, he can't play shortstop. He can't play second base either, nor can he play left field. His role is bench outfielder, perhaps a little second if the need arises. There are also plenty of other options for this position. He's a good 25th man pinch-runner for a playoff roster.

Vic Sage Dec 09 2013 12:27 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

But he [u:12fsmtwh]CAN[/u:12fsmtwh] play LF; 2b, too. I know because i saw him do it last year. CF, too, if i recall correctly. Now whether he does those things well, or even well enough, is a different matter and depends on how you want to measure those things. Some in this thread have shown ways to parse his performance last season other than to say "he can't play". I myself saw him play well enough that he was a distinct upgrade over what we had been running out there before he showed up, and he was one of the few brights spots of the 2nd half of the season. Now obviously "better" isn't necessarily "good", but in the absence of "good", "better" is better than not.

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 12:37 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

fwiw, Young's batting line with the Mets last year is basically Ruben Tejada's career line. And his 2013 numbers would've placed him near the very bottom of second basemen. It was 15/16 of qualifying left fielders and Chris Carter is only 16th because he plays LF like Lucas Duda with a little more pop and a little less walking. That "Bright spot" might have been the oncoming train.

Vic Sage Dec 09 2013 12:44 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Again, depends what numbers you look at. And i'm not arguing for Young, per se. But saying his line is the same as Tejada's as a way of dismissing him when, (1) you've argued FOR Tejada in the past, based on that same line, and (2) the similarity in their batting somehow excludes Young's 40+ SB differential, is the kind of agenda-based cherry-picking that tends to discredit your argument.

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 01:04 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

ooh, he's fast. his only skill. his 80% SB rate last year was nice, but the ,hopeful, addition of the power of Granderson and C. Young negates the SB value a bit. And if we're going to bring in stolen bases, might as well bring in defense and Tejada's passable at SS whereas Young would likely be bad. It's not as simple as plugging in a guy that's fast. I haven't argued for Tejada based on that career line, merely the potential coupled with the age and as compared to the SS options, specifically related to washed up AAA players who are already doing worse than that. I'll gladly upgrade Tejada if we can, but that's not as easy as it is to upgrade Eric Young Jr. Young can be useful. When Duda or Davis walk late in the game down a run, pinch run!

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 01:19 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Ceetar wrote: ooh, he's fast. his only skill. How obnoxious.

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 01:29 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: ooh, he's fast. his only skill. How obnoxious. sometimes the truth is obnoxious.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 01:34 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Being sarcastic and snotty is obnoxious. Cut it out.

Ceetar Dec 09 2013 01:42 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Edgy MD wrote: Being sarcastic and snotty is obnoxious. Cut it out. Stop belittling my opinion and the facts I base them on then.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2013 01:45 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

Don't play the martyr, please. Try harder.

metsmarathon Dec 09 2013 02:41 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

all stats per fangraphs: last year, eric young produced -6.9 batting runs above average (based on wOBA) in his 418 metly plate appearances. in his career, ruben tejada produced -29.3 batting runs above average (based on wOBA) in his 1359 career plate appearances, which works out to -9.0 batting runs above average per 418 plate appearances. last year, eric young produced 9.5 baserunning runs above average in his 418 metly plate appearances in his career, ruben tejada has produced 0.3 baserunning runs above average in his 1359 career plate appearances, which works out to 0.1 baserunning runs per 418 plate apearances. offensively, last year, eric young was a better player than ruben tejada has been for his career. what does it mean going forward? honestly, i don't know. tejada shoulld still be capable of improvement whereas young may not be, being on the wrong side of hte aging curve. for what it's worth (and i don't know what's going into their defensive valueation), but the "oliver" projections on fangraphs show them both at about a 0.9 WAR player next year, assuming 600 plate appearances. oliver uses weighted mean of hte prior three seasons, plus aging and regression to the mean. so its not really pretending to know anything about hte players. but, it's something, right? with very small sample sizes to go on, if i look at their defense, young and tejada are both about slightly above average at 2b/lf and ss, and by slightly above average, i mean a run or two over the course of a year.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 09 2013 03:57 PM Re: If Eric Young can play second base...

What marathon said: Young actually plays left field decently. And baserunning value is still value. But, yeah, the whole shortstop question is a little silly. More than a little.