Forum Home

Master Index of Archived Threads


ShortStop 2014

Frayed Knot
Dec 17 2013 06:24 PM

In no particular order, and not necessarily the final word on things.

JJ Hardy - Balt http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... jj01.shtml
-- the pros and cons of him have been discussed elsewhere. although I don’t know if I’ve ever heard that he’s actually available
Basically you’d be getting a good glove plus a big increase in power, but also more of the high-K/low-OBP stuff that’s plauged the rest of the lineup. And he’s one year from FA

Stephen Drew - FA http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... st01.shtml
-- Also discussed here elsewhere. Coming off a good season but it’s his only full one in the last three or four. Is already 31, wants a multi-year deal and would cost a draft pick on top of the one we’ve already ceded for Granderson.

Didi Gregorius - Ariz http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... di01.shtml
-- Mariekson Julius Gregorius, LHB, 23 y/o from Amsterdam in the Netherlands, was originally Reds property before being dealt to the Snakes a year ago in a three-way deal that docked the SS Choo in the river city. But the DBacks have other options at SS (see: Owings, Chris) and may be willing to deal. Hit decently for a rookie though no RoY votes; reportedly a good glove; and although I had thought he had good legs he’s has never been a base-stealer at any level.
The MLBN crew thinks he’s a likely NYM target (for whatever that's worth).

Chris Owings - Arizona http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ch01.shtml
-- A 22 y/o 41st round draft pick out of HS in South Carolina got his ML cuppa late this season.
Minor league numbers are good but mainly in hitting environments (Cal Lg + AAA Reno) and much less so in between at sea-level AA Mobile. It’s his presence that reportedly makes Gregorius available so I’m guessing they like the glove a whole lot. #3 DBacks prospect (and top position player) this winter according to BA. Snakes have been active so far this winter and just dealt their next best prospect, 3B Matt Davidson, to the White Sox for closer Addison Reed.

Elvis Andrus - Texas http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... el01.shtml
-- Very strange situation. Is probably the one top young player signed to a long-term pre-arb deal that looks shaky in the early going. Toss in the fact that the Rangers have a better/younger one ready to go maybe makes him more available. Still only 23, the catch is that his contract runs through age 33 and for some heavy numbers by the end of the deal.

Nick Franklin - Seattle http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ni01.shtml
-- 23 y/o by next spring w/400 ML ABs under his belt. The presence of Brad Miller makes his availability possible but the crew at MLBN questioned his ability to remain at SS.

Brad Miller - Seattle http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... br02.shtml
-- 24 y/o 2nd round pick in 2011 out of Clemson, apparently is considered the better SS of the two Mariners. REAL GOOD minor lg numbers from his late 2011 debut in A ball right thru to his AA + AAA in 2013 before his mid-year call-up.


And then of course there's the status quo. Ruben is still young and has shown that he's capable of better than what we saw in 2013 - but he's also the guy who lost playing time to Omar Quintanilla even after he got healthy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 17 2013 07:32 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Gregorious IIRC is one of those guys considered more toolsy than result-y but those tools were on display when he got the chance to play. Question I guess is how for real he is.

Does Pittsburgh have a shortstop they wanna deal off? They apparently are in on the Ike talks again.

Nymr83
Dec 17 2013 08:44 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

What would you give the D-bags if Gregorious were available? this is a guy who wont even see arbitration for 3 years so it wont be cheap. Is Montero available for him? I dont know if I'd do it but thats probably the minimum

Edgy MD
Dec 17 2013 08:59 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Thanks for launching this thread. Among other things, spurs me to finish that chart I've been laying out. Please correct me if I got any of this wrong.

2013 GuysAge in '14LevelG at ssPAAVGOBPSLGOPSOPS+
Omar Quintanilla32MLB92359.222.306.283.58970
AAA43148.333.419.484.903139
Ruben Tejada24MLB55227.202.259.260.51949
AAA58269.288.337.379.71690
RK310.333.400.444.844155
Justin Turner29MLB1886.280.319.385.704100
AA217.400.471.5331.004180
A+11.000.000.000.000-100
SS A212.300.417.400.817152
RK05.200.200.000.200-38
Wilfredo Tovar22MLB719.200.294.200.49445
AA128486.263.323.340.66386
Jordany Valdespin26MLB1144.188.250.316.56660
AAA067.466.537.7591.296240


2014 Leading Internal Candidates
Tejada
Tovar


2014 Potential Position SwitchersAge in '14LevelPAAVGOBPSLGOPSOPS+
Wilmer Flores (under the craziest of circumstances)21MLB227.211.248.295.54254
AAA463.321.357.531.887133


2014 Fringey Internal CandidatesAge in '14LevelG at ssPAAVGOBPSLGOPSOPS+
Reese Havens27AAA0109.237.312.330.64271
Rylan Sandoval26AAA3119.327.378.509.887133
26A+4247.243.309.320.62982
Daniel Muno25AA17561.249.384.379.762114


You Snooze, You LoseAge in '14LevelG at ssPAAVGOBPSLGOPSOPS+Signed By:Years$$Note
Brendan Ryan32MLB101349.197.255.273.52851Yankees2$5 million
Derek Jeter40MLB1373.190.288.254.54251Yankees1$12 million
Yunel Escobar30MLB153578.256.332.366.69897Rays1$5 million
Rafael Furcal36MLB (2012)120531.261.325.346.67185Marlins1$3.5 million
Jhonny Peralta32MLB106448.303.358.457.815119Cardinals4$53 million
Clint Barmes35MLB106330.211.249.309.55858Pirates1$2 million
Nick Punto36MLB49335.255.328.327.65587Athletics1$2.75 million


Remaining Free AgentsAge in '14LevelG at ssPAAVGOBPSLGOPSOPS+Note
Stephen Drew31MLB124501.253.333.443.777111Received Qualfying Offer
AA523.200.261.450.71195
César Izturis34MLB29142.209.259.271.53046
Álex González37MLB3118.177.203.230.43318
John McDonald39MLB677.116.197.174.3716Played for 4 MLB Teams!
AAA637.250.324.294.61866And one more in the minors!
Omar Quintanilla32MLB92359.222.306.283.58970
AAA43148.333.419.484.903139

Edgy MD
Dec 17 2013 09:07 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Forgot THE MAN.

Minor League SigneesAge in '14LevelG at ssPAAVGOBPSLGOPSOPS+
Anthony Seratelli31AAA3487.273.395.413.808115

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 17 2013 09:28 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Nymr83 wrote:
What would you give the D-bags if Gregorious were available? this is a guy who wont even see arbitration for 3 years so it wont be cheap. Is Montero available for him? I dont know if I'd do it but thats probably the minimum


Yeah, maybe this is where you get a third team involved. I can surrender Ike to the Bucs for a prospect, and include him (or Dilson Hererra) with Montero and say, Nieuwenhuis or Den Dekker to AZ.

Maybe they take Tejada? Who knows.

Edgy MD
Dec 17 2013 09:41 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Seeing that list and how the market has played out, it lends some credit to the Mets still standing around with their dance card unsigned. The Yankees have dropped $17 million and, if recent stats suggest anything, may have ended up with next to nothing.

Frayed Knot
Dec 17 2013 09:42 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Nymr83 wrote:
What would you give the D-bags if Gregorious were available? this is a guy who wont even see arbitration for 3 years so it wont be cheap. Is Montero available for him? I dont know if I'd do it but thats probably the minimum


I suspect it'll take young pitching. They'll ask for Syndergaard and the Mets will say no, at which point it remains to be seen whether either side will walk away from an offer of a lesser arm. Do the Mets want a SS badly enough to offer 'anybodybut' and/or do other teams value the secondary guys enough? Or maybe the whole thing expands into a package where a pitcher gets paired with one of the defensive CFs for a SS + something or other.
Probably a similar scenario for Owings and either of the Seattle guys.

Or maybe it's none of that ... what the fuck do I know.

Frayed Knot
Dec 17 2013 09:50 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Does Pittsburgh have a shortstop they wanna deal off? They apparently are in on the Ike talks again.


They had Clint Barmes, John McDonald, and Jordy Mercer playing there last season - but I'm not all that interested in any of them.

They're prolly in on Ike talks because Garrett Jones just signed a FA deal with Miami and Justin Morneau inked one w/Colorado

Ashie62
Dec 18 2013 01:05 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm partial to Gregorious. I can only guess they want starting pitching and for sure they are not getting Syndergaard.

Maybe we get a Ruben sandwich for 2014 and abstain, you never know..

smg58
Dec 18 2013 06:36 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Hardy (and Asdrubal Cabrera in Cleveland) will look more interesting to me next season than they do now.

I think Miller is staying in Seattle. Franklin has his bags packed, but I don't see him as a SS. I still might gamble if the M's sell him for pennies on the dollar, but I'm not holding my breath.

Elvis Andrus has only exceeded an OPS+ of 90 once. Ruben Tejada has done it twice. Caveat emptor.

Gregorius is OK. He has the potential to be better than OK if he learns to hit major-league lefties, but note the "if" in that statement. He wasn't any more highly regarded a prospect in 2013 than Montero is likely to be now (plus we might need Montero too), so I'd be careful with what I offer.

I don't see why a third-round pick for Drew would be a dealbreaker. If we have the money to do it he's my top choice.

Edgy MD
Dec 31 2013 09:05 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Starting to feel more and more like the statements that the team is ready to go with Tejada are as much bluffing as they are preparing the fan base for disappointment. I mean, they have to bring in some meaningful alternatives, if not because of this 2013 stuggles, but because he finished the season with a broken leg.

They might accomplish nothing in pursuit of Drew except submitting a bid for another team to exceed, but they will almost certainly at least either bring in a cheap vet or trade for a pre-arbitration prospect they see as league-ready.

Ceetar
Dec 31 2013 09:27 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

they'll clearly bring in something, since it's like Tejada, Tovar, and then whoever they draft this year on the depth chart.

Ashie62
Dec 31 2013 10:26 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

They do say they are comfortable with Tejada and Ruben just needs to work on his conditioning and work ethic..

Don't we all...

Centerfield
Dec 31 2013 12:14 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

It just boggles my mind that with SS up in the air like this that we would non-tender Justin Turner.

Whatever.

Ceetar
Dec 31 2013 12:18 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Centerfield wrote:
It just boggles my mind that with SS up in the air like this that we would non-tender Justin Turner.

Whatever.



They have plenty of time. It's not like they're losing games while not carrying a barely acceptable SS backup guy with a penchant for whipped cream pies.

Edgy MD
Dec 31 2013 12:41 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Turner was a terrible shortstop. He probably improved with is his reps in 2013, but he was like worst-in-the-league bad. He didn't help the team there.

Ceetar
Dec 31 2013 01:11 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Turner was a terrible shortstop. He probably improved with is his reps in 2013, but he was like worst-in-the-league bad. He didn't help the team there.


Actually, of all guys with 50AB at SS (how many Turner got) he was 49/59 in OPS.

Q was 45 and Tejada as 57.

Edgy MD
Dec 31 2013 01:13 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I was trying to speak to his general defensive aptitude.

Ceetar
Dec 31 2013 01:28 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
I was trying to speak to his general defensive aptitude.


and I was just being a numbers nerd cause I was curious. I don't think I can filter b-r play index on UZR or anything. not that 110 innings are really meaningful.

I'm sure there are a handful of other guys that played a dozen or so games at SS that were just as bad (perhaps one that's been playing there, in this city, with the same number, for years) in the field, but Turner is definitely near the bottom.

seawolf17
Dec 31 2013 01:29 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Come on, Justin Turner was not the future of this team. I liked him, but let's get real.

Tejada's three closest b-r comparisons through age 23 are Cesar Izturis, Bucky Dent, and Luis Aparicio. Let's give him at least one full year to see if can really be something.

Edgy MD
Dec 31 2013 01:50 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ceetar wrote:
I'm sure there are a handful of other guys that played a dozen or so games at SS that were just as bad (perhaps one that's been playing there, in this city, with the same number, for years) in the field, but Turner is definitely near the bottom.

That's why I was putting the "like" qualifier in there. I have no idea if he's the worst and I really don't want to spend the time trying to prove it --- look at the less-than-explosive response I got to my frankly excellent work on the Morales-vs.-Duda-vs.-Davis question --- but I feel confident that he's down there with the fakirs and phonies when it comes to shortstop defense. It's silly, but I personally would feel better defensively with Wright at short.

Ashie62
Dec 31 2013 02:32 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

seawolf17 wrote:
Come on, Justin Turner was not the future of this team. I liked him, but let's get real.

Tejada's three closest b-r comparisons through age 23 are Cesar Izturis, Bucky Dent, and Luis Aparicio. Let's give him at least one full year to see if can really be something.


I believe this may become reality. Nothing else is popping up at SS..not yet anyway...

Justin Turner is a lifetime backup at best..

Edgy MD
Jan 30 2014 09:30 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Holy smokes. I can't read it because ESPN is block'd at work (where's my smart phone?), but Rubin just posted and article titled "Alderson: Flores at shortstop not dead?" Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants if the Mets had a stealth plan all along to defy the defensive dismissals and go with a low-range/offense first option nobody at all had considered?

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 30 2014 09:34 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Say what?

The Mets abandoned using Wilmer Flores at shortstop after the 2011 season in the minors because of a lack of lateral mobility.

But Sandy Alderson tells MLB.com that Flores might get a look back at his natural position this spring training. After spending time at a nutrition and agility camp near Ann Arbor, Mich., this offseason, Alderson apparently wants to see if Flores has picked up any range. (He'll need to pick up a lot to convince scouts he could handle shortstop, even in a backup role.)

“I don’t want to place too much stock on four weeks of conditioning, but this is a guy who’s never really had the opportunity to develop himself physically the way players here in the United States do, who have a season and then an offseason,” Alderson told the web site. “He’s never had an offseason. He’s always played. So this is a different type of offseason for him -- one in which he’s been able to invest in his career. We’ll see how it pays off for him.

“I wouldn’t say [Flores to shortstop] is dead. I think that one of the things we want to see is how well he has done with his training regimen in Michigan. Before this offseason, I’m not sure he ever had any sort of structured, regimented conditioning program. The work that they have done on speed and agility and quickness, etc., may have an impact on his ability to play certain positions -- including second base and conceivably even shortstop. But right now, that’s all speculation.”

Flores last played shortstop in 2011 with Class A St. Lucie.

If he makes the team, he likely either needs to beat out Omar Quintanilla, Wilfredo Tovar and Anthony Seratelli as a backup shortstop or beat out Josh Satin to back up the corner infield spots.

The best bet: Flores opens the season at Triple-A Las Vegas ... not seeing time at shortstop.

Ceetar
Jan 30 2014 09:34 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Holy smokes. I can't read it because ESPN is block'd at work (where's my smart phone?), but Rubin just posted and article titled "Alderson: Flores at shortstop not dead?" Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants if the Mets had a stealth plan all along to defy the defensive dismissals and go with a low-range/offense first option nobody at all had considered?


And Terry Collins floating Eric Young as leadoff bs. Rubin admittedly is posting this because it's like a car wreck and you'll click. It still says January on my calendar.

Edgy MD
Jan 30 2014 09:39 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm sorry. I promise not to talk about anything.

Ceetar
Jan 30 2014 09:42 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
I'm sorry. I promise not to talk about anything.


no no, we can talk about it. That's fun. Flores to SS is humorous. Trying to figure out how to make Duda work in LF is funny. It's acting like this stuff is even remotely likely that's sorta silly. Reporting it like they're talking about it any more seriously than we are.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jan 30 2014 09:43 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I do like that they're open to that. Flores appears to me to be way too clumsy to be a real shortstop but young position players who can hit are things the Mets could really use so I hope they can find a role for Flores.

I'm tellin ya, I think trades are going to have to come still.

Edgy MD
Jan 30 2014 09:47 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ceetar wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
I'm sorry. I promise not to talk about anything.


no no, we can talk about it. That's fun. Flores to SS is humorous. Trying to figure out how to make Duda work in LF is funny. It's acting like this stuff is even remotely likely that's sorta silly. Reporting it like they're talking about it any more seriously than we are.

I don't know about remote. It's more likely after Alderson's statement than it was before, and it's completely (almost literally) out of left field, which makes it exciting to me, even if it doesn't come to pass (and Duda did play left field! and right too!)), because I like that my team is considering game-changing maneuvers.

When I treat it like a fait accompli, please let me know.

seawolf17
Jan 30 2014 09:48 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Oh, how different the 1987-88-89 Mets would have been with Kevin Mitchell at SS.

Ceetar
Jan 30 2014 09:53 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
I'm sorry. I promise not to talk about anything.


no no, we can talk about it. That's fun. Flores to SS is humorous. Trying to figure out how to make Duda work in LF is funny. It's acting like this stuff is even remotely likely that's sorta silly. Reporting it like they're talking about it any more seriously than we are.

I don't know about remote. It's more likely after Alderson's statement than it was before, and it's completely (almost literally) out of left field, which makes it exciting to me, even if it doesn't come to pass (and Duda did play left field! and right too!)), because I like that my team is considering game-changing maneuvers.

When I treat it like a fait accompli, please let me know.


I'd rather point it out before people start treating it like a fait accompli.

Frayed Knot
Jan 30 2014 11:07 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I suppose you could do worse than having Flores available for at least part time SS duty.
Of course I've never seen him actually play the position so exactly how bad (or not) he would be there remains speculation to this point.

Edgy MD
Jan 30 2014 11:13 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Plus'n he's spent the offseason working the fuck out. Him, Duda, and Tejada all passed on winter ball and are up in Wisconsin making themselves quick, lean, and supple. If that doesn't make superior fielders out of them all, you know at least it's good for a couple of "best shape of my career" quotes in February. And hopefully Tejada doesn't sneak home in between and get snagged by visa problems again.

Nymr83
Jan 30 2014 02:06 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

The worst defensive shortstop ever plays across town, sp why not?

Ceetar
Jan 30 2014 02:15 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Nymr83 wrote:
The worst defensive shortstop ever plays across town, sp why not?


you saying we should just start Duda there?

Ashie62
Jan 30 2014 10:36 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Flores at SS?? hard to imagine and almost comical...

Frayed Knot
Feb 21 2014 06:19 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Anthony Seratelli (I can already hear Benigno cheering for him) is a local kid--NJ HS, Seton Hall walk-on--attempting to make the squad as the backup SS, making him a potentially good story with only a couple minor flaws:
1) Self-admitted Yanqui/Jeter fan.
2) He's now 31 y/o

Article
Stats


Nothing mentioned specifically about his fielding in that Post article although he's played more at 2B (and 1B for that matter) than at SS in the minors.
But he's got some [crossout]good[/crossout] great walk rates and SB rates that didn't fall off as he moved up through the lower levels.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Feb 21 2014 06:31 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Makes the assignment of No. 2 to him kinda creepy. Let's put him in 87 instead.

Vic Sage
Feb 21 2014 07:59 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

A switch-hitter with a good OB%, good SBs, and decent pop over the last 4 AA-AAA seasons. If he can play even barely adequate D, I'd start him at SS today, and likely a better backup option than Quintanilla, Tovar or Flores. That's before you even get to the human interest story aspects.

smg58
Feb 21 2014 08:39 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'd also guess Omaha is at least a bit less hitter-friendly than some of the other PCL parks, too. As a backup, Seratelli wouldn't need to be that good of a defensive SS if he is a viable pinch-hitter. I think his chances of coming north are pretty good.

The thing you need to consider with Flores is that he's probably a better hitter than Turner was, and may not field any less poorly. I can totally understand wanting him to start at AAA over using him as a reserve up here, but the latter is an option I'm willing to keep open if there's a chance it makes the team better.

Edgy MD
Feb 21 2014 08:51 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Yeah, if that training camp did him any good, he may be more or less as good an emergency option at shortstop as Turner was.

Depends on whether his sore ankles we saw last September are going to be chronic thing or not.

Frayed Knot
Feb 21 2014 09:22 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Bobby V used to talk about being 'three deep' at each position. That didn't mean you'd actually want to use the third guy, only that you had one in mind if the extra-innings/PH-ing/in-game injuries all piled up at the same time.
IOW, if Flores is that 3rd SS and winds up playing there for a handful of innings over the year then I think we can live with it.

Ceetar
Feb 21 2014 09:36 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Frayed Knot wrote:
Bobby V used to talk about being 'three deep' at each position. That didn't mean you'd actually want to use the third guy, only that you had one in mind if the extra-innings/PH-ing/in-game injuries all piled up at the same time.
IOW, if Flores is that 3rd SS and winds up playing there for a handful of innings over the year then I think we can live with it.


sure, if we're talking an emergency start or a couple of reallly late innings when you'd rather Flores bat in the lineup than Tejada's..

still concerned about the _second_ guy though.

Frayed Knot
Feb 21 2014 09:36 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Not really new news, but Adam Rubin reminds us today that "the Mariners are likely to trade [short-stops] Nick Franklin or Brad Miller -- most likely Franklin -- before Opening Day."

The emergence of Miller bumped Franklin to 2B last year but now the signing of Cano takes that option away so something has to give.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Feb 21 2014 10:47 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Franklin whiffed an awful lot last year but showed some legit powa. Only 22 years old. Miller is more a batting-average guy, and is 23.

Can't vouch for either guy's D.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Feb 21 2014 11:03 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Franklin played mostly second base last year, but is supposedly "more comfortable" at short (where he played throughout the minors). That said, by all reports, he's a bat-first, iffy-arm kinda guy.

Sickels and others describe Miller as "error-prone." But I'm not sure I don't like Miller's disciplined, line-drive-y offensive approach better.

Edgy MD
Feb 21 2014 11:08 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Franklin's gravitating away from shortstop already. You look at pictures of him and he doesn't even look nimble. I think he projects more like a Wigginton --- enough bat that you want to get him in the lineup, but not so much that you can shrug off what he can't do on D. Wiggie can crack a lineup for 10 years but rarely on a good team.

Maybe a more generous projection is Uggla.

I can think of worse paybacks, but I imagine the team wants to wait a few weeks to see what they have in camp now, just like a few possible suitors for Ikas Duvis are waiting to get a look at the guys they have in camp.

Frayed Knot
Feb 21 2014 11:33 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

But is he (Franklin) gravitating away from SS because he lacks the skills for it or is it strictly because Seattle came up with a better option?
I certainly haven't seen enough M's games to know.

Maybe that lady/super-fan for the Clinton Lumberkings still has an opinion on Franklin ... or at least one of his old socks or something.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 21 2014 11:36 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014



Franklin doesn't look especially "unnimble" in this photo. Adam Rubin says of the two, Franklin is the one more likely to be dealt. Nothing on what the Mariners would want. It seems likely that if the Mets were to trade for him, they'd be sending a young pitcher, since that's where they have depth. (I have no idea which one it would be.)

Edgy MD
Feb 21 2014 11:48 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Frayed Knot wrote:
But is he (Franklin) gravitating away from SS because he lacks the skills for it or is it strictly because Seattle came up with a better option?
I certainly haven't seen enough M's games to know.

Nor I, but I have read REPORTS! And the reports I've read peg him as below average.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Feb 21 2014 02:14 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Benjamin Grimm wrote:


Franklin doesn't look especially "unnimble" in this photo. Adam Rubin says of the two, Franklin is the one more likely to be dealt. Nothing on what the Mariners would want. It seems likely that if the Mets were to trade for him, they'd be sending a young pitcher, since that's where they have depth. (I have no idea which one it would be.)


They need power. Like, they're heavily-weighing signing Cruz or Morales, even with the draft-pick tags.

We've got some spare DH-1B around here somewhere, don't we?

sharpie
Feb 21 2014 02:31 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Kendrys Morales was on the Mariners last year and wouldn't cost them a draft pick.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 21 2014 02:34 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

If either of these guys are as good as they're made out to be, the Mariners should expect to get back more than Ike Davis or Lucas Duda.

Frayed Knot
Feb 21 2014 02:37 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I suspect that if a deal gets done it's more likely to be of the package variety rather than a simple one-for-one
Ike + Tejada + ??? for Franklin + ??? ... or something along those lines.
Or, for instance, we've got several passable young CFs on hand (Lagares, den Dekker, Nieuwenhuis) while Seattle's former CF Franklin Gutierrez won't play for them this season due to "irritable bowel syndrome". Betcha haven't heard that one for a DL reason in a while.

Ashie62
Feb 22 2014 08:31 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Brad Miller would be the one I am hoping for...

TheOldMole
Feb 22 2014 12:52 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Sometimes the Mets give me irritable bowel syndrome.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 24 2014 02:42 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014


FLORES A SHORT LOOK
Collins reiterated that Wilmer Flores will get a look at shortstop this spring, but also added that he will need to look at him at second base and third as well.

He is impressed by the way Flores re-shaped his body this offseason.

"I tip my hat to him, he has a whole different body than he did at end of the season," Collins said. "He went to the training in Michigan, he looks tremendous. He came in lighter, he came in more athletic, I am going to let him play some short, I want to see him at second and third," Collins said. "His bat potential is off the charts. Everybody talks about what a big RBI guy he is. Somebody told me they watched him in winter ball and reminds them of Fonzie. That's a big statement. I don't like to compare guys, but Edgardo Alfonzo was outstanding offensive player.

"We just go to find a position for him to play." Collins said.

Coincidentally, Alfonzo is in camp this spring as a special instructor.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... z2uHJLvMHo


I wouldn't be too surprised if they tried to shoehorn Wilmer into the lineup at shortstop for a year or two until Daniel Murphy moves on, and then slid him over to second base.

I bet that's what 1984 Davey Johnson would do!

Edgy MD
Feb 24 2014 03:41 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Chase D'Arnaud DFA'd by Pittsburgh.

seawolf17
Feb 24 2014 07:04 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Chase D'Arnaud DFA'd by Pittsburgh.

Sorry. We're out of little d's.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 25 2014 09:35 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ruben Tejada apparently not making a good impression so far. Scott Boras probably likes this news.

Kevin Kernan, New York Post wrote:

Frustrated with Tejada out of shape, Mets keep eyes on Drew

PORT ST. LUCIE — Ruben Tejada still isn’t working out for the Mets.

Even though Tejada attended an offseason strength/conditioning and nutrition camp in Michigan, Mets management has not been overwhelmed by the shortstop’s “new’’ body.

“He looks pretty much the same,’’ one source told The Post on Monday.

Frustrated with Tejada, the Mets still have a strong interest in signing free-agent shortstop Stephen Drew, two sources have told The Post. They also have shown interest in Seattle’s Nick Franklin.

Sure, Tejada made the offseason commitment, but there clearly is a long way to go and that is why the Mets, if they could strike a deal with Drew’s agent, Scott Boras, would do so. But that is one big if. The Mets have reportedly offered a one-year, $9.5 million contract to Drew.

“I would not be surprised if we signed Drew,’’ one Mets official told the Post, “but at the same time, I don’t expect it to happen.’’

Drew could sit out until after the June amateur draft, when the draft- pick compensation rule would no longer apply. The Blue Jays, Red Sox, Mets, Pirates and A’s have shown interest, and the Yankees are always lurking.

At this juncture, Tejada continues to hold the position by default. To keep it, Tejada is going to have to have an impressive spring. Tejada already has let one golden opportunity slip through his fingers, not taking hold of the position after the Mets allowed Jose Reyes to sign with the Marlins. And now Tejada, 24, is in danger of allowing the same thing to happen again.

Tejada said he is confident he will play well this season, saying, “The [Michigan] camp was good preparation for me for spring training.’’

As for Drew, Tejada is not concerned about the free agent or any other shortstop the Mets have an interest in.
“I don’t make the decisions,’’ Tejada said. “I’m just trying to prepare myself as best I can. You never know what happens here. My concentration and preparation is on the game. I want to show everybody I can play good baseball.’’

Asked if he felt an opportunity slipped through his fingers in blowing his chance to replace Reyes, Tejada said, “I do my best every time I go to the field. This year I really think I’ve come here prepared to work hard every day.’’
Listed at 5-foot-11 and 185 pounds, he appears a bit slimmer than last spring when he was clearly overweight, but he is not moving that much better.

While the Mets have raved about Wilmer Flores’ more athletic body (they don’t view him as a shortstop) and Lucas Duda’s drop in body fat, you have not heard many comments from the Mets about the new Tejada since camp began. Several Mets officials wanted to avoid the subject entirely Monday.

“Right now I feel really good,’’ Tejada said. “I think the best decision I could make was to go there and prepare myself for the rest of my career.’’

Careers can come to a jolting halt. Remember when Eduardo Nunez was going to slide into the Yankees infield? He still hasn’t been able to secure a job.

The fact the Mets have made an offer to Drew and shown interest in Franklin shows they have severe doubts about Tejada, who hit .202 last season. To land Drew, the Mets have to come up with big money and with the financial restrictions they have put on themselves, that is a difficult situation.

For now, Tejada remains on the job, but so far, nothing is working out at shortstop for the 2014 Mets.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 25 2014 09:39 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

And here's what they're saying in Seattle:

Report: New York Mets interested in Seattle Mariners infielder Nick Franklin
Posted on February 24, 2014 | By Nick Eaton

In need of a shortstop, the New York Mets are reportedly interested in a trade for Seattle Mariners infielder Nick Franklin.

Franklin, 22, enamored Seattle fans when he was first called up from Triple-A Tacoma last May. He got off to a hot offensive debut in the major leagues, sustaining his batting average around .290 until he began slumping in July. He finished the 2013 season with a .225 average over 102 games, tallying 83 hits, 45 RBI, 42 walks, 12 homers and 113 strikeouts.

A shortstop in the minors, Franklin filled in for a struggling Dustin Ackley at second base last season; the Mariners already had rookie Brad Miller starting at shortstop. Especially with the offseason signing of All-Star second baseman Robinson Cano, it’s likely Seattle will trade one of them before Opening Day, and it seems more likely to be Franklin than Miller.

The Mets, according to ESPN, on Monday acknowledged interest in Franklin as a shortstop. As ESPNNewYork.com’s Adam Rubin wrote last week, Franklin would “be considered an upgrade” over Mets shortstop Ruben Tejada.

Citing an anonymous source, Rubin reported Monday that the Mariners and Mets have been talking since the MLB winter meetings in December.

“The talk is expected to pick up in the next month with Seattle having an excess infielder and the Mets having the type of young pitching Seattle desires to obtain in a swap,” Rubin wrote. “The Mets likely would need to further debate whether they feel Franklin can handle full-time shortstop before pulling the trigger on any such deal.”

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Feb 25 2014 10:10 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Well that Seattle report is based on The Rube's local report.

The Rube btw seems exasperated with Post writers making his job more difficult by picking fights on sensitive topics. First the Ike thing and now this Tejada thing.

Frayed Knot
Feb 25 2014 10:13 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Yeah, the Seattle report is based on the NY report, and the Post report is based entirely on "one source" saying “He looks pretty much the same’’.
IOW, I don't think there's anything new here.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Feb 25 2014 10:50 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

At some level, the Post's posture toward the Mets is a shot at the Snooze, whose writers are seen as carrying water for the Wilpons through exclusives and their interest in co-branded product at SNY. The Rube of course went to ESPN via the Snooze.

I am not impressed with Kristy Ackert's work yet on the Snooze Metbeat.

Edgy MD
Feb 25 2014 12:02 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Kernan's report actually reads like he has two distinct Mets inside sources, one telling 'em Tejada looks the same (whatev), and another speculating on Drew.

Ashie62
Feb 25 2014 07:39 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Quite a bit of fuss over two quasi marginal guys.

So Tejada didn't show up "buff" as hoped... He seems to be painted as lazy in most of what I read..

Franklin is young and a decent athlete who wore down in his first year of the MLB life...I have no idea what he would cost in trade... Jenry Mejia ish....?

Vic Sage
Feb 27 2014 10:49 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

The Mets moved Flores off SS after 2011 because they felt he lacked range and quickness, not because he couldn't catch and throw. If they're considering Franklin, they may as well play Flores. He's young, he's coming off a productive AAA season, and he's already here so he won't cost anything extra. If he can play the position even barely adequately -- Howard Johnson, Keven Mitchell, and Melvin Mora come to mind -- then the upside of his bat at that position makes it worth exploring. But what i don't want us to do is give up a decent prospect for someone i view as a similar player.

Edgy MD
Feb 27 2014 10:54 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ashie62 wrote:
So Tejada didn't show up "buff" as hoped... He seems to be painted as lazy in most of what I read..

I think you're reading a lot into a single utterly empty quote.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 27 2014 10:56 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm with Vic. Let's give Flores a shot at shortstop. Murphy will probably be gone within a year or two, and then Wilmer can slide over to second base if need be.

MFS62
Feb 27 2014 02:24 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Vic Sage wrote:
The Mets moved Flores off SS after 2011 because they felt he lacked range and quickness, not because he couldn't catch and throw.

Exactly. I saw Dick Groat play short for the WS winning Pirates. He had very limited range. But he played the position for many years because he read the catcher's signals, fugured out where the batter was likely to his the pitch, and positioned himself accordingly. I thought he had the least range of any shortstop I ever saw, until I saw that guy across town the last few years. But they made up for any fielding deficiency with a live bat.
Sign me up, too. I want Wilmer.

Later

Vic Sage
Feb 27 2014 02:35 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I'm with Vic. Let's give Flores a shot at shortstop. Murphy will probably be gone within a year or two, and then Wilmer can slide over to second base if need be.


Don't understand me so fast. i'm not saying i want Flores as our SS; i'd just prefer they try him rather than trade a good prospect for a guy like Franklin. I'd still like to see Seratelli get a fair shot, too. And i'd prefer both of them to Tejada, at this point. But we'll see how ST goes.

Edgy MD
Feb 27 2014 02:41 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Indeed.

The Met-lovin' online world puts a lot of stock in Mitchell's 24 games at shortstop, 20 starting, 17 complete, over a quarter century ago.

It's all cool but we'll see. First, the guy's got to show he can hit.

Frayed Knot
Feb 27 2014 02:48 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Do we have any evidence to suggest that Franklin & Flores are more or less defensive equivalents at SS? That Franklin was moved late last year and is currently on the trading block seems more a case of circumstances than a knock on his glove skills.

According to the prospect gurus, there's not a scout in the world who thinks Flores can play SS at the major league level (a recent Q&A at BA said specifically that).
Now maybe when a scout says that he's really saying that Flores won't be a long term solution there; or maybe it reflects a bias on their part based on him not fitting their image of the ideal SS; or maybe they just haven't seen the newer, fitter, supercalifragalcious version of him and he's about to surprise everyone.

Benjamin Grimm
Feb 27 2014 02:50 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Like I said, give him a shot. If he can't play there, we'll find out soon enough. There's a chance that he's the best option the Mets currently have.

dinosaur jesus
Feb 27 2014 02:50 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Indeed.

The Met-lovin' online world puts a lot of stock in Mitchell's 24 games at shortstop, 20 starting, 17 complete, over a quarter century ago.

It's all cool but we'll see. First, the guy's got to show he can hit.


Oh, I'm pretty sure Mitchell can hit. They need to put him out there every day and let him find his rhythm.

Then maybe they can trade that Elster kid for a left fielder.

Vic Sage
Feb 27 2014 02:54 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

The Met-lovin' online world puts a lot of stock in Mitchell's 24 games at shortstop, 20 starting, 17 complete, over a quarter century ago.


Hojo played 34 games that year, too (with 22 starts), and 38 more games the next year, increasing every year after that, through 1990.
Goddamn, i loved me some Davey Johnson.

metsmarathon
Feb 27 2014 04:14 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Whether it's tejada Drew or maybe even Flores, one thing is certain in my mind. The mets will get more production at short than the postal clerks across town

Ceetar
Feb 28 2014 07:09 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

metsmarathon wrote:
Whether it's tejada Drew or maybe even Flores, one thing is certain in my mind. The mets will get more production at short than the postal clerks across town


park-adjusted of course, pop-fly home runs being what they are.

metsmarathon
Feb 28 2014 07:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

fWAR, bWAR, OPS+, wOBA.

our alphabet soup will taste better than theirs.

at second and third and maybe (for the sake of our season) first as well.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 04 2014 07:49 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

ESPN's Christina Karhl says Mets should trade Doodoo, Flores and RHP prospect Michael Fulmer to Cleveland for Asdrubal Cabrera.

Latter is a good hitter for a SS but his D isn't great and will be a free agent.

Argunent seems overly weighted with the idea that Cabrera is better than Tejada (thanks, we knew that) and the "90 win" pronouncement.

Not that I wouldn't want to have a real hitter play SS but geez I'm thinking now maybe it's just Flores.

metirish
Mar 04 2014 08:13 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

That's a lot for a guy who's a FA after 2014, right?

Who fits all of those criteria? I think just one team, the "we'll win 90 now" New York Mets.


that fucking 90 win crap is going to haunt this team.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 04 2014 08:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

ESPN's Christina Karhl says Mets should trade Doodoo, Flores and RHP prospect Michael Fulmer to Cleveland for Asdrubal Cabrera.


The article also had the premise that Flores is disposable to the Mets because he's blocked at third base by David Wright.

Flores has recently been compared to Edgardo Alfonzo. If there's a reasonable chance that that's true, I want him to stick around. (My guess: he'll be the everyday second baseman by 2016, if not before.) I certainty don't want him traded for a one-year rental.

Edgy MD
Mar 04 2014 08:44 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

metirish wrote:
That's a lot for a guy who's a FA after 2014, right?

Who fits all of those criteria? I think just one team, the "we'll win 90 now" New York Mets.


that fucking 90 win crap is going to haunt this team.

Douchey columnists will haunt them no matter what they say.

smg58
Mar 04 2014 09:59 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

If I'm talking to Cleveland, it's about Francisco Lindor.

It would make far more sense to sign Drew than trade for Cabrera.

Edgy MD
Mar 04 2014 10:08 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Well, that would depend on the nature of the trade or the nature of the signing, I think. Those are just names that a columnist is throwing around.

Maybe, perhaps, it would be a trade-plus-extension. The Mets have had a noticeable dearth of Asdrubals in recent years.

Vic Sage
Mar 04 2014 10:16 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

i would only trade one of our top prospects (like Flores) for either one of another team's top prospects, or as part of a package for a star player under team control for a few of his prime years at fair market price. Cabrera is still just 28 (so still in his prime), and has had 2 all-star appearances and a silver slugger, and WAR between 3-5 for 4 of his last 6 seasons, with range factor in top 5 for 3 of his last 5 years (so a "star" player, i would think), despite coming off a down year. Guys have bad years. Therefore, I would consider Flores in such a deal, but only if Cabrera was locked up for the next 3-5 seasons or so at an affordable rate. I'm certainly not interested in him for a 1-year rental for the 2014 season; not at that price.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Mar 04 2014 03:05 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

It's a steep price to pay, to be sure. But keep in mind-- that one-year rental is just 28, has put up above-league-average numbers with the bat at a premium defensive position (where he's been fair defensively, if JUST fair), and even if he walks, he walks leaving his team a draft pick.

That said, he's a 3-win guy even when he's hitting his best. Duda/Davis-and-second-tier-pitching-prospect(s) should do it.

Vic Sage
Mar 04 2014 03:21 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

sure, if the proposal was Duda/Fulmer, I'd consider it. But Flores? Not without a long-term commitment from Cabrera. And maybe not even then.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 04 2014 05:07 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

What do we think of Nimmo instead of Flores?

Frayed Knot
Mar 04 2014 06:09 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
What do we think of Nimmo instead of Flores?


I think the current consensus is that Nimmo has the higher ceiling but also lower floor. IOW, being further away from the majors Nimmo could still whiff on a big league career entirely, but also has the more rounded tool set that makes his potential upside better than Flores who's limited by his glove & speed and is at an age where he's what you see now is closer to what you're going to get.

How one wants to view those differences for trade purposes depends on the particular needs and wants of both the trading and receiving teams. I suspect that if the Mets had a specific trade on the hook right now and that to complete it they were given the choice of including either Flores & Nimmo that they'd opt to deal Flores and keep Nimmo, but that's purely a guess on my part.

Edgy MD
Mar 04 2014 06:19 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I ain't doin' no three-for-one for no Strudel or Astrodoodle or whatever his name is. Any one of those three guys can easily end up giving his team plenty more WARPs and VORPS and totAVGs than this guy in his one guaranteed year.

One of those guys for Asperger. Two of those guys for Asperger-plus-a-contract-extension. Even then, it's almost too painful to contemplate.

Seriously, when you start putting out three players for one, and all three are capable and enchanting major league-starter level talents, then I want it to be a guy who makes you stand right up and say, "Hey, we really are the favorite in this division now and everybody knows it."

Let's not get so hungry for other team's players that we start kidding ousrelves that Dick Schofield is Cal Ripken. Columnists love to sow that grass-is-greener bullshit. If it doesn't solve the problem (and it doesn't), don't go bending over backwards for a non-solution.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 04 2014 09:01 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
What do we think of Nimmo instead of Flores?


Just watched the replay of today's game and can report Nimmo is a big, solid, athletic, strong, baseball-smashing guy. Not trading him.

Nimmo is zimmo!

Edgy MD
Mar 04 2014 09:27 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Yeah. When a guy's main problem is that he's almost too selective, I can work with that.

What's that? An athletic Nick Johnson with two healthy legs? I can certainly work with that.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 04 2014 09:42 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Srlsly, I was almost shocked by what a specimen he;d become. Don't take this comparison too literally but a body like a lefthanded hitting Hunter Pence. Tall and taut.

Vic Sage
Mar 05 2014 11:37 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

all three are capable and enchanting major league-starter level talents,


"enchanting"? really? that's not a word scouts use much, i bet.
Oddly, despite the lack of enchantment one is likely privvy to in baseball circles, i think "disenchantment" runs rampant.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Mar 05 2014 12:34 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Unless you're talking bare-competence-level capability, Edge, "capable" is debatable. "Enchanting?" Come on, man.

When you're starting Johnnie LeMaster, and you can get Dickie Thon for a price below Ripken, you'll take Dickie Thon.

Ashie62
Mar 05 2014 12:50 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

As it stands I would make the phone call and sign up Stephen Drew.

It is possibly the overall cheapest option out there and allows the Mets to not have to count on Tejada Qball or any internal experiments....

Zvon
Mar 08 2014 02:39 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

With Tejada doing that workout thing in MGIM's backyard I wanted to wait and see him a bit before passing judgement.
He supposed to be in better shape. Already hurt himself.
I figure at least he will catch the ball. One (actually 2, 1 not called) errors yesterday.

Unless I see a drastic turnaround in the next 72 hours, I'm done with him. Lets see if Flores can play SS w/o dragging his feet too much.

Edgy MD
Mar 08 2014 05:33 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Unless you're talking bare-competence-level capability, Edge, "capable" is debatable. "Enchanting?" Come on, man.

When you're starting Johnnie LeMaster, and you can get Dickie Thon for a price below Ripken, you'll take Dickie Thon.

Actually, I meant Dick Schofield, and subsequently changed it.

But sure, I'll take either, but I ain't giving up no three major-league-starter level talents for a year of either, whether or not you're feeling the enchantment.

Frayed Knot
Mar 12 2014 07:27 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

John Harper: Mets still monitoring SS market - although he talks more about them keeping an eye on possible shakeouts in Seattle [Miller vs Franklin] and/or Arizona [Owings vs Gregorius] than about Drew who still seems to want what the Mets won't give and vice versa.

Vic Sage
Mar 12 2014 08:16 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

i'd sooner take the loser of the Owings / Gregorious competition than one of the Seattle guys, but I'm not sure if i'd trade Plawecki + Montero to get one of them. Maybe if they included a decent OF prospect back i'd be ok with it. Frankly, Gregorious seems to be the kind of SS that the Mets thought Tejada was, which doesn't excite me. Owings may have a stronger bat, but his reported lack of plate discipline is indeed worrisome. I've come to think that our best bet is to give Flores more ABs at SS until he proves he CAN'T play the position, and then play Seratelli if he can't.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 12 2014 09:07 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'd hate to give up on Plawecki just yet. Travis is still too much of a question mark.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 12 2014 09:17 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I think we get a SS for less than Plawecki/Montero, if that's what's really under discussion.

Tejada/Nieuwenhuis/Gee is what I'm thinking

bmfc1
Mar 12 2014 09:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I'd hate to give up on Plawecki just yet. Travis is still too much of a question mark.

Agreed. There are no guarantees so keep them both, at least for now.

Vic Sage
Mar 12 2014 09:24 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

it's not a question of "giving up"; it's about filling a hole. You have to give something to get something. We have a hole at SS that runs deep down into the organization. With d'Arnaud, we have at least the potential of an answer for our catching situation at the ML level, and AZ is demanding a young catcher for a SS, it seems.

Of course it all depends on your relative assessments of Plawecki vs Owings / Gregorious. If you don't think they have similarly productive upsides, and that they are similarly close to the majors, then don't do the deal. I think Owings has a chance to be as good a ML SS as Plawecki has of being a good ML catcher, and i think he's closer to the majors. That's why Plawecki alone won't get it done. Whether Montero is the other piece (to make up that difference), or a lesser prospect like DeGrom would be acceptable, or whether we give Montero and they give us something else back... these are all negotiating points after you make the initial assessment of relative value. I'm not sold either way yet, but its intriguing to consider.

Tejada / Niehuwenhuis / Gee? I don't think that gets us more than a souvenir cap and maybe a hot dog.

But you really don't need to consider the value of that package, since AZ wants a catcher. Maybe Seattle would take Gee+something for one of their castoffs, but i don't think they are much better than what we have. Or maybe a 3rd team can be brought in to an AZ deal for that package. Yeah, i'm not looking to lose Montero+Plawecki either, but we need a SS... and not just a guy who can stand between David Wright and the second base bag, but a guy who can be so above average at the position that we don't consider it a weakness anymore. I don't know if any of these prospects fit that bill, but if our scouts do, then giving up talent to get it shouldn't dissuade us from doing so.

Edgy MD
Mar 12 2014 09:25 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm not advocating this trade, but it wouldn't necessarily indicate a give-up, yeah.

If you have two assets in a one department and zero in another, it may come to pass that you decide that the second asset in the first department is a luxury you can't afford to retain while the second department is bleeding the company dry.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 12 2014 09:34 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

My point is that the Mets are not at the point where Plawecki is a luxury. We need to see more from d'Arnaud before that happens.

That doesn't mean you don't trade him in the right deal, just that there's more reason to hesitate.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 12 2014 09:43 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

eh. I just get the impression that if the Mets were willing to trade their top prospects they'd be gone already. Ike Davis is my deal too, somehow. Other guys who could go:

Black
den dekker
deGrom
Fulmer
Muffy?
Flores
Doodoo
Young Jr.
Recker
Satin
Lagares

Everyone is quick to shout "bag of balls!" and forgets that Sandy unloaded both Thole and Nickeas in a trade for something useful. I'm not saying they shouldn't trade Plawecki (or even dArnaud if the return is zexy enough) just that, I think we may not hafta.

Edgy MD
Mar 12 2014 09:47 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I got a nice workbench from Black den Dekker.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 12 2014 09:48 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Of course, when he traded Thole and Nickeas he also threw in the reigning Cy Young Award winner.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 12 2014 09:51 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Sure but the point is had anyone raised the possibility of those two in any deal they'd have sure drawn a w"we'd be lucky if they bring us a half-eaten hot dog lolrofl!!11" response.

Ceetar
Mar 12 2014 09:52 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Sure but the point is had anyone raised the possibility of those two in any deal they'd have sure drawn a w"we'd be lucky if they bring us a half-eaten hot dog lolrofl!!11" response.


Little bit of special situation there given the knuckleball-catcher pairing, but mostly crappy guys get thrown into package deals all the time. "Need someone to stand in LF for a couple of weeks" "need someone to fill out a AAA rotation cause we're promoting some guys and don't want to rush the AA guys yet"

It's somewhat amazing how often major league organizations simply need bodies.

Edgy MD
Mar 12 2014 10:03 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Perhaps an even better example is that the team got two guys with gen-u-ine futures for Buck and Byrdie after the waiver deadline.

Sandy seems to have demonstrated that he knows when to hold 'em, and "bag o' balls" rhetoric only hurts your team.

Vic Sage
Mar 12 2014 10:41 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Deals aren't built around those kinds of players. It's Dickey+body+body, not Nickeas+Thole +CY winner.

In the Gee package that was suggested, it's Gee + UT/SS + LHed OF1/b. Nobody is going to credit us much for Nieuenhuis or Tejada in a package, beyond the fact that they are living creatures with enough skill and youth to stand in certain places on a baseball field and play roles on a roster. Which is certainly not "nothing", but it's also not very much. So you have to decide what Gee is worth to other teams, and to us, as an adequate inning-eating #3-4 type starter. And while that's quite a bit MORE than nothing, and is really quite useful, its also not the stuff that dreams are made of, and if you have a blue-chip prospect with a future that could include all-star games, Gee is not the big fish you want to land in return.

Marlon Byrd was having the best year of his career when Sandy traded him; he was not a "bag-o-balls" type of player at that point (even with less leverage after the trade deadline), so i don't see how that is relevant. And our rhetoric on the subject doesn't hurt the team... or help it, for that matter. It's utterly irrelevant to anyone but us.

Edgy MD
Mar 12 2014 10:51 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Vic Sage wrote:
Marlon Byrd was having the best year of his career when Sandy traded him; he was not a "bag-o-balls" type of player at that point (even with less leverage after the trade deadline), so i don't see how that is relevant. And our rhetoric on the subject doesn't hurt the team... or help it, for that matter. It's utterly irrelevant to anyone but us.

Because the popular rhetoric at the time was that by holding out for players that they assessed to have actual value --- instead of trading his short-timers for anything he could get --- that he would walk away with nothing as he did with regard to Scott Hairston the previous year.

Vic Sage
Mar 12 2014 11:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

i could well be misremembering, but i seem to recall the rhetoric around here being of the nature that Sandy should move Byrd before the deadline, since he'd have more leverage (which he would have had) at that point. And for all we know, Sandy could well have passed on a decent offer waiting for a better one, before finally ending up with the Bucs prospects. We're just looking at the outcome after the fact and saying "yea, Sandy!". And yea indeed (though Black could easily end up Kyle Farnsworth and tiny Dilson Herrera could get blown away by a stiff breeze and never get a sniff of Queens). But only Sandy knows whether he got the maximum value by doing it that way. Unlike Hairston, Byrd was having not just a good year but a great year and Sandy may have figured he had the luxury of waiting because he felt he could ultimately get SOMETHING for Byrd going down the stretch. As it turned out, there was an organization that finally was in a pennant race after not being in the post-season for 20 years, and so was willing to risk overpaying for the short-term gain. And it worked out for the Bucs, as the move helped get them into the post-season. But it could just as easily have gone the other way, just like it did with Hairston, and we could've ended up with nothing, not even a bag-o-balls. That it worked out well the second time (and not the first) didn't make it the right strategy either time.

But as i said, i could be misremembering the nature of the rhetoric at that time. In any event, it still doesn't explain to me how the content of our rhetoric, good or bad, hurts our team. You think Sandy is monitoring online bulletin boards and blogs (or even the national media) in order to decide what moves to make? His understanding of the "popular opinions" of the fanbase may not go entirely unconsidered (certainly by ownership), but I don't think it impacts his moves one way or another. Now if you're talking about the public abuse heaped on overpaid, underperforming players at the ballpar, the kind that eventually rises to the level of metaphorical burnings in the public square, then maybe a GM will try to move such a fellow for his own good and to get rid of the distraction. Under those circumstances, a trade or buyout is addition by subtraction and a "bag o balls" is just a bonus. Also, when your dealing with an impending FA, particularly one with no vested history with the team, and your team is out of the running, its just a waste of resources to get nothing for him (as with Hairston) than it is to accept less than perceived "value". In such situations, waiting for "actual value" that may not materialize can do more harm to the franchise than good.

Edgy MD
Mar 12 2014 11:28 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

That's 30 pounds of words leading up to "In such situations, waiting for "actual value" that may not materialize can do more harm to the franchise than good."

This is incorrect. This is bag-of-balls thinking.

Vic Sage
Mar 12 2014 11:29 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

well if you say so, then it must be so.

Ceetar
Mar 12 2014 11:34 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

There's also the idea that standing firm on Hairston, and being willing to take nothing helped land the haul they ultimately got for Byrd. Sandy had history on his side when he said "This is my final offer. take it or leave it." and the other teams would believe that he wouldn't take less than that. This is the price, and you'll pay it or you don't get him. Whereas if they had dumped Hairston for nothing, the Pirates maybe wait another day or two figuring Alderson will get desperate and take less. Long con.

Lefty Specialist
Mar 12 2014 12:49 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ceetar wrote:
There's also the idea that standing firm on Hairston, and being willing to take nothing helped land the haul they ultimately got for Byrd. Sandy had history on his side when he said "This is my final offer. take it or leave it." and the other teams would believe that he wouldn't take less than that. This is the price, and you'll pay it or you don't get him. Whereas if they had dumped Hairston for nothing, the Pirates maybe wait another day or two figuring Alderson will get desperate and take less. Long con.


That's 11-dimensional chess.

Sandy doesn't seem to like the proverbial bag 'o' balls. He was probably offered numerous bags of balls for Hairston and turned them down. Didn't seem like anyone was offering anything as tantalizing as the Black/Herrera combo at the time. So he kept him. If that was to build his street cred as a non-bag'o' -taker, then kudos to him. Could come in handy if Colon or others are dangled this July.

Ashie62
Mar 12 2014 01:43 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Sign Drew....

metirish
Mar 13 2014 09:02 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

ugh, must everything be viewed through a Mets prism?



New York Post Sports ?@nypostsports
#Braves had a hole at pitcher and immediately filled it. The #Mets have had a hole at SS all spring and still nothing http://nyp.st/1kiBmUN

Ceetar
Mar 13 2014 09:09 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

metirish wrote:
ugh, must everything be viewed through a Mets prism?



New York Post Sports ?@nypostsports
#Braves had a hole at pitcher and immediately filled it. The #Mets have had a hole at SS all spring and still nothing http://nyp.st/1kiBmUN


Post training consists of "If you can't find a way to knock the Mets in a tweet, don't send it."

Of course, Harvey went down and the Mets signed Colon to a 2 year deal.

metirish
Mar 13 2014 09:12 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Exactly, it's the constant jabs at the Mets that irritate me , hey, the Braves signed Santana , good for them, if they had signed Drew then you could go ask Alderson what impact it has on their thinking,just fucking lazy stuff.

Ceetar
Mar 13 2014 09:18 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Alderson, when asked about the Braves' move, assumed the questioner was making the exact leap many armchair general managers did: When are the Mets going to get as bold as Atlanta did?

"You mean in terms of our shortstop situation?" Alderson said. "Were you going to ask that as the next question? . . . I don't think has any significant bearing on us."

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 13 2014 06:49 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Jon Heyman says that Baltimore and Tampa, along with the Mets, are all interested in trading for Nick Franklin.

Ashie62
Mar 13 2014 07:16 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

It would likely cost the Mets young arm (s) to swing this...

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 13 2014 09:38 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I like Nick Franklin too, I'm intrigued with Rollins. Yes his stock is down but it's not like we need the NL MVP on this team -- we just need a guy who'd be better than Tejada and/or Eric Young, and Rollins is both of those even if he doesn't improve a lot. PLus there's the potential that a change of scenery gooses his game: It needn't improve dramatically to be better than average. I also think he's the kind of value stock Alderson likes in a budget portfolio -- a Dave Justice type whose best days are behind but still a useful MLB player.

Lefty Specialist
Mar 14 2014 06:32 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

If Rollins doesn't cost too much in talent, I'd take him. Solidifies the position for a year. Don't see the Phils trading him to the Mets, though.

Edgy MD
Mar 14 2014 07:18 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm not sure how much teams fear trading players to intradivisional rivals. Sometimes I think they care a lot. Other time I think, if the team feels like the deal they want is there, they don't care who it's with.

Probably the attitude is different on March 30 than it is on June 30.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 14 2014 07:20 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I suspect that teams would rather trade someone out of the division than within if all else is equal, but the main thing is to make the deal that brings the best return.

Remember, Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter came to the Mets in trades from NL East teams.

Centerfield
Mar 14 2014 07:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

So did Mike Piazza.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 14 2014 07:24 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

And Juan Samuel!

Lefty Specialist
Mar 14 2014 07:27 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Considering the Phils finished exactly one game behind the Mets last year and that Jimmy (no shrinking violet he) would probably give lots of quotable stuff to the press about Philly, I think they'd rather send him as far away as they could.

The Piazza trade doesn't really count- they were in blow-it-up mode in 1998 and didn't care where they were sending people. Al Leiter came from them as well.

batmagadanleadoff
Mar 14 2014 01:01 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Comments from a disinterested and unbiased observer:

Scott Boras: Teams weak at shortstop owe it to fans to sign his client Stephen Drew

Ceetar
Mar 14 2014 01:09 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Comments from a disinterested and unbiased observer:

Scott Boras: Teams weak at shortstop owe it to fans to sign his client Stephen Drew


I suspect a "Anonymous GM: Players that still don't have contracts should wonder about their self-valuation" is coming soon.

metirish
Mar 14 2014 01:16 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

"I think the earnestness of a franchise and their desire to win is always appraised by their conduct in pursuing the available talent,"


Sid Boras earnestly, he has got some balls all the same.

Lefty Specialist
Mar 14 2014 02:08 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

"If you don't overpay my client you're not trying."

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Mar 14 2014 03:33 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Meanwhile, Tejada's performance-art continues apace: 0-for-3 with a rally-killing GiDP, an error on a routine grounder, and a barking hammy yesterday.

He'll start again today, and leadoff, because this is our way.

Lefty Specialist
Mar 15 2014 05:36 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Meanwhile, Tejada's performance-art continues apace: 0-for-3 with a rally-killing GiDP, an error on a routine grounder, and a barking hammy yesterday.

He'll start again today, and leadoff, because this is our way.


Maybe he's just getting all his crappy play out of his system now, in spring training.

Look! A cup! And it's half full!

Fman99
Mar 15 2014 12:35 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Meanwhile, Tejada's performance-art continues apace: 0-for-3 with a rally-killing GiDP, an error on a routine grounder, and a barking hammy yesterday.

He'll start again today, and leadoff, because this is our way.


Maybe he's just getting all his crappy play out of his system now, in spring training.

Look! A cup! And it's half full!


Yeah, it's half full of liquidy shit. And it was filled up by Ruben Tejada.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Mar 15 2014 12:37 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Meanwhile, Tejada's performance-art continues apace: 0-for-3 with a rally-killing GiDP, an error on a routine grounder, and a barking hammy yesterday.

He'll start again today, and leadoff, because this is our way.


Maybe he's just getting all his crappy play out of his system now, in spring training.

Look! A cup! And it's half full!


Yeah, it's half full of liquidy shit. And it was filled up by Ruben Tejada.


How can you tell? Is it fattier or rounder than you expected it to be?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Mar 16 2014 08:33 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm thinking Boras finally has a name for his mystery team. (And/or that the price for Nick Franklin just went up.)

Either way... Ruben or bust? (Fourth error today, by the by.)

Zvon
Mar 16 2014 10:37 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
I'm thinking Boras finally has a name for his mystery team. (And/or that the price for Nick Franklin just went up.)

Either way... Ruben or bust? (Fourth error today, by the by.)

He also made a good play. He's not hitting shit though. And he doesn't look in any different shape than I've seen in the past. Certainly no quicker on his feet.

What he's doing under these circumstances is now getting funny. L'il bit.

Ceetar
Mar 17 2014 07:17 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
I'm thinking Boras finally has a name for his mystery team. (And/or that the price for Nick Franklin just went up.)

Either way... Ruben or bust? (Fourth error today, by the by.)



yup, he's up to 0 on the season.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 17 2014 07:33 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

If Ruben can't field and he can't hit, then I would say that there's a better alternative. Either a guy who can hit but not field (like Flores) or a guy who can field but not hit (Quintanilla, Tovar, etc.)

Some kind of trade for a shortstop is looking more and more likely, even with Niese's latest medical setback.

Frayed Knot
Mar 17 2014 08:07 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

On the whole SS/pitcher health topic, Arizona LHP Patrick Corbin (24 y/o; 14-8; 3.41 last year) is looking at probable TJ surgery making them possibly more anxious to dangle one of their young SS's to troll for mound help.

On the same subject, one of the columns this morning floated the idea where, if Tejada flounders through mid-season and the Mets are out of it, then Bartolo Colon makes for good trade bait to a team, again maybe the DBacks, that's in it and needs pitching. Just because we need a SS doesn't mean it all has to be done by opening day.

Ashie62
Mar 17 2014 04:19 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

The Mets seem pretty committed to Tejada... I doubt Sandy has even spoken to Seattle since the meetings.....

Good luck to Ruben.... Qball is looking over your shoulder...

Frayed Knot
Mar 17 2014 05:08 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ashie62 wrote:
The Mets seem pretty committed to Tejada...


I don't think that they're committed at all, or that to what degree it does exist extends any further out than maybe month to month.
I think it's probably as simple as they don't like the price--in dollars or in bodies--of the immediately available alternatives and are willing to stick with him for now to see whether:
a) he bounces back to something close to 2012 form
b) the price of replacements drops
c) other alternatives become known

Again, not all problems need to be solved by April 1st

Ashie62
Mar 17 2014 07:36 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I would like to think the Mets have a handy Plan B for SS and C.....

Frayed Knot
Mar 18 2014 06:32 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Now catcher is a position where I believe mgmt is pretty committed to the young incumbent and a place where they're going to be willing to endure the slumps and hiccups of the inevitable learning curve before looking to change course at the next opportunity. Much more so there certainly than at SS even though d'Arnaud is a bit older than Tejada, he's also yet to fumble a shot plus offers up the much higher ceiling.

Lefty Specialist
Mar 18 2014 06:50 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Whatever happened to Wilfredo Tovar? He appeared briefly last year and looked like a good-field, no-hit type, which is preferable to a no-field, no-hit type like Tejada.....is he still on the radar? Is he getting the reps at Vegas this year?

Edgy MD
Mar 18 2014 07:25 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Well, since Vegas doesn't have a roster yet, it's too early to tell.

Tovar was slowed in the early going by a sore hammy. Of course, since it didn't fit the narrative being built against Tejada, nobody insinuated that this was evidence that he was a bum. In fact, the online world scarcely noticed.

He was cut a week ago, after garnering only three plate appearances in major league camp. I expect he'll see plenty of action if he stays healthy.

Zvon
Mar 18 2014 02:03 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Flores made an excellent play on a grasscutter in the hole. Slid, backhanded,popped up and showed some nice arm. Well, if he can do that...

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 18 2014 02:17 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

He's trying to fend off Didi Gregorius!

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 18 2014 02:28 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

You know he wouldn't necessarily have to if he served as Gregorius's RH-hitting platoonmate and all-around infield backup. That's prolly cost Seratelli or even Satin a job though.

Edgy MD
Mar 18 2014 02:43 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Seems to me that there's gonna be two infield backups and Satin's pretty well poised to be one no matter how the Big Spring Training Trade shakes out.

Edgy MD
Mar 20 2014 07:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Sources have the Cardinals dangling Pete Kozma, who was, somehow, just as bad with the bat as Tejada last year --- and actually never really hit in the minors either. But he stayed healthy and I guess would satisfy the any-face-but-Tejada's crowd. He pretty much owes his career to the only time he ever hit having occured during a September stretch and into the post-season. I guess he's a modern-day Brian Doyle in this regard.

Anyhow, if his presence on the block softens the market one iota for one of Arizona's or Seattle's shortstops, I guess that'd be helpful.

Nymr83
Mar 20 2014 08:10 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

ZERO interest in Kozma.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 20 2014 08:12 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I didn't count on this Australia trip interfering with the Big Spring Training Blockbuster.

Apparently they are allowing 30-man rosters for this series so looks like Didi may arrive with game time under his belt #experience

Edgy MD
Mar 20 2014 08:16 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Yeah, I guess these pre-season/in-season international road trips might one day give a guy a chance to break Maury Wills' record for games in a season.

Ashie62
Mar 20 2014 09:27 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I see Martino talking up Drew today, maybe Boras wants to close the file...

FWIW, I will take Tejada over Kozma..twice...

MFS62
Mar 21 2014 08:48 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

If they wanted to pay $12 million, the Mets could have had Phil Jackson playing shortstop.

The waiting is getting to me.

Later

Mets Guy in Michigan
Mar 21 2014 02:25 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

The Detroit Free Press -- using those unnamed sources -- say this:

Source: Stephen Drew willing to sign one-year deal with Tigers
3:53 PM
Veteran free-agent shortstop Stephen Drew is willing to sign a one-year contract with the Tigers, a person familiar with Drew's thinking said today. So despite the Tigers' trade today with the Angels for shortstop Andrew Romine, could Drew now be attractive to them?

Love the "a person familiar with Drew's thinking" listed as a source.

Ceetar
Mar 21 2014 03:10 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

metsguyinmichigan wrote:


Love the "a person familiar with Drew's thinking" listed as a source.


it's great, because it really means absolutely nothing. "Well yeah, I know Drew, and I've watched him reason before. I definitely could see an argument that could lead to him considering a 1-year deal with the Tigers. It's definitely something that he could've thought."

And after covering it all season, aren't all of these reporters "familiar with Drew's thinking?" Is that all it really means? "I've been covering this all season and based on what's been said, this is certainly something that could be the result."

Edgy MD
Mar 21 2014 05:16 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm going to guess "aPFwDT" is a Scott Boras' racquetball partner.

Mets Guy in Michigan
Mar 22 2014 05:58 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
I'm going to guess "aPFwDT" is a Scott Boras' racquetball partner.


I'm guessing that it's Scott Boras.

Ceetar
Mar 22 2014 06:41 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

metsguyinmichigan wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
I'm going to guess "aPFwDT" is a Scott Boras' racquetball partner.


I'm guessing that it's Scott Boras.


right, the racquetball partner (I miss racquetball btw, anyone want to play?) is probably a source "with knowledge of the situation" or "close to the negotiations"?

TheOldMole
Mar 22 2014 09:01 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Still like Flores.

Ceetar
Mar 23 2014 08:01 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

TheOldMole wrote:
Still like Flores.


you do now perhaps, but I wonder if it's 4/25 and he's made a handful of stupid errors or just plain missed balls..

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 23 2014 08:51 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'd like to see them give Flores a shot too. If it gets to be April 25 and he's not getting it done, then you try someone else. I'd rather give him the chance to fail (and by doing so, the chance to succeed) than just say it won't work. WWDJD? (What would Davey Johnson do?) I bet he'd play Wilmer at shortstop.

Edgy MD
Mar 23 2014 03:34 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

More often than not? I bet he wouldn't.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 23 2014 06:19 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Maybe, maybe not. He'd sure give him a try though.

Edgy MD
Mar 23 2014 06:58 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Looks like a try is indeed what he's going to get.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 23 2014 07:14 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

That's all I ask!

Zvon
Mar 23 2014 08:15 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014


FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING
HOLY GIVE THE BOY A TRY!

MFS62
Mar 24 2014 07:06 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

But not with the big club:
https://twitter.com/Mets/status/448064426978316288

Later

Mixtapewormhole
Mar 24 2014 08:05 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Totally okay with giving Flores AAA SS reps and giving Tejada another chance to get himself together. Better option than trading a major league player for Alex Gonzalez, at least.

Mets Guy in Michigan
Mar 24 2014 08:08 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

That means one less potential landing spot for Drew!

(And welcome aBordick, new guy!)

Mixtapewormhole
Mar 24 2014 08:14 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Hey thanks! Quasi-new guy, actually. Anything I miss the past, uh, 8 years?

Edgy MD
Mar 24 2014 08:15 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Hey, yeah, welcome back, Mister Mxyzptlk.

themetfairy
Mar 24 2014 08:17 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Welcome back OO!

Ceetar
Mar 24 2014 08:18 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Mixtapewormhole wrote:
Hey thanks! Quasi-new guy, actually. Anything I miss the past, uh, 8 years?


The Mets built a cool new stadium.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 24 2014 08:22 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ceetar wrote:
Mixtapewormhole wrote:
Hey thanks! Quasi-new guy, actually. Anything I miss the past, uh, 8 years?


The Mets built a cool new stadium.


which sucks

Ceetar
Mar 24 2014 08:23 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
Mixtapewormhole wrote:
Hey thanks! Quasi-new guy, actually. Anything I miss the past, uh, 8 years?


The Mets built a cool new stadium.


which sucks


The Mets built a cool new stadium that I love. Your mileage may vary. The pretzels are rarely burnt and I haven't had to wade through puddles to get to my seat in ages.

MFS62
Mar 24 2014 08:38 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Welcome back.
Later

Ashie62
Mar 24 2014 04:22 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Have not heard the crowd roar once at Citifield like it did at Shea almost every game....

Lefty Specialist
Mar 24 2014 05:24 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Tough to get a roar going for unburnt pretzels.

Zvon
Mar 24 2014 06:11 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Good to see you back O_O.

TheOldMole
Mar 24 2014 09:49 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

The rap on Flores isn't that he's prone to making a lot of stupid plays, it's that he doesn't have the range for shortstop. So what does that mean? That he fails to get to one hit per game that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a lot. That he fails to get to one hit every three games that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a trade-off you might make for a guy who hits forty points higher than the guy with range.

Ceetar
Mar 25 2014 07:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

TheOldMole wrote:
The rap on Flores isn't that he's prone to making a lot of stupid plays, it's that he doesn't have the range for shortstop. So what does that mean? That he fails to get to one hit per game that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a lot. That he fails to get to one hit every three games that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a trade-off you might make for a guy who hits forty points higher than the guy with range.


Well, if he's Duda bad at a more valuable position..

Duda was 18% better than average with the bat and had ALL of that value erased via defense.

you don't typically look for 18% better than average at SS, but it's also be unreasonable to expect that of a rookie.

But if Tejada was playing LF, would you advocate they play Duda there instead? Because that's a fair parallel to the worry about Flores at short.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 25 2014 07:24 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Trade will still happen! Just wait!

Ceetar
Mar 25 2014 07:25 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Trade will still happen! Just wait!


Drew signing will still happen! no?

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 25 2014 07:34 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

No.

I mean, I don't think so.

Ashie62
Mar 25 2014 11:50 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

The Tigers prefer 37 year old Alex Gonzalez over Drew...

Ceetar
Mar 25 2014 11:54 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ashie62 wrote:
The Tigers prefer 37 year old Alex Gonzalez over Drew...


and even traded someone for him.

Drew's demands just have to be ridiculous.

Edgy MD
Mar 25 2014 12:03 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

TheOldMole wrote:
The rap on Flores isn't that he's prone to making a lot of stupid plays, it's that he doesn't have the range for shortstop. So what does that mean? That he fails to get to one hit per game that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a lot. That he fails to get to one hit every three games that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a trade-off you might make for a guy who hits forty points higher than the guy with range.

This is a simple but I think a very illuminating framing of the issue, even as it ignores important stuff like extra base power and walks.

Shortstops are often singles hitters, but overlooked is that fact that, as important as they are on defense, they are even more typically singles defenders. I would estimate that 19 out of 20 balls that a shortstop could possibly make a play on but fails to are singles --- the lone exception being the popup down the leftfield line that falls for a double if the shortstop cannot race in between the third baseman and the leftfielder.

The importance of outfield defense has long (and I think unjustly) been downplayed relative to infield defense. The first data-intestive list I saw of the top defensive season from all players included just one season by an outfielder (Dave Parker, in the glory of his arm).

But I think what had previously been under-appreciated is that while the outfielder might get fewer overall chances and fewer marginal chances, his failures lead to doubles and triples. I think the appreciation for this fact is growing, and certainly seems to be growing in Metsylvania, as the team went out and custom built their outfield defense this offseason, but seem willing to downgrade at first (potentially from Davis to Duda), potentially downgrade at short (potentially from Tejada to some combination that may include Flores), and stay fair to middling at second with Murph.

Gutsy and fascinating.

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 25 2014 12:04 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

He's probably hung up on that $14.1 million figure.

Vic Sage
Mar 25 2014 12:18 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

TheOldMole wrote:
The rap on Flores isn't that he's prone to making a lot of stupid plays, it's that he doesn't have the range for shortstop. So what does that mean? That he fails to get to one hit per game that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a lot. That he fails to get to one hit every three games that a shortstop with greater range would get to? That's a trade-off you might make for a guy who hits forty points higher than the guy with range.


As Edgy also said, this i think is the crux of the matter. If, in fact, Flores' defensive problems are primarily about range (and that's how its been reported), then it comes down to how many more hits (mostly singles) he gives up as a result of his limited range compared to how many more hits and walks he gets (including more XBH) than the other options the Mets have at SS, or even what the average SS may get.

I'm OK with Flores starting the season at AAA to work on his SS skills, but if he continues his growth as a hitter and can limit his defensive shortcomings to be primarily about range (able to make all the right plays on the balls he can get to), then i'd be happy to try and make him work as our SS, because i have absolutely no interest in watching Tejada play anymore.

Edgy MD
Mar 27 2014 03:08 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Staffing the shortstop position for the final inning of today's game --- Eric Young, Jr.

Centerfield, please step forward and claim your prize.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Mar 27 2014 03:12 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Well, it stands to reason, no? Any time you can find at-bats for a guy who can get on, like, thirty percent of the time, well, you've got to give him those at-bats.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 27 2014 09:19 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm beginning to think this whole Spring Training Blockbuster might not actually happen.

MFS62
Mar 28 2014 07:46 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Still time.
They'll be coming back from playing the Blue Jays in Montreal, and they'll bring Jose Reyes back with them.
They have to leave Farnsworth, because the government won't allow him back into the country.
Uh, I have to check my meds.

Later

Vic Sage
Mar 28 2014 08:18 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Well, it stands to reason, no? Any time you can find at-bats for a guy who can get on, like, thirty percent of the time, well, you've got to give him those at-bats.


well, its not quite that simple now, is it? I'm as SABR-philic as the next guy, but it seems to me a guy that gets on 30% of the time, but then can put himself quickly and consistently in scoring position (because he, you know, leads the league in SBs, and does so at a high rate), may be better option than a guy who gets on 35% of the time and then stands there on 1b, requiring more than one hit to score (unless its a HR, which this team hasn't, and isn't going to, hit that many of). Yes, OB% is important, probably the MOST important, offensive indicator, but it isn't the ONLY indicator, and shouldn't be considered in isolation.

Edgy MD
Mar 28 2014 08:40 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Alshmo, in his career, Young has gotten on 32.5% of the time, which isn't great, but isn't 30% either.

Ceetar
Mar 28 2014 08:59 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Vic Sage wrote:
LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Well, it stands to reason, no? Any time you can find at-bats for a guy who can get on, like, thirty percent of the time, well, you've got to give him those at-bats.


well, its not quite that simple now, is it? I'm as SABR-philic as the next guy, but it seems to me a guy that gets on 30% of the time, but then can put himself quickly and consistently in scoring position (because he, you know, leads the league in SBs, and does so at a high rate), may be better option than a guy who gets on 35% of the time and then stands there on 1b, requiring more than one hit to score (unless its a HR, which this team hasn't, and isn't going to, hit that many of). Yes, OB% is important, probably the MOST important, offensive indicator, but it isn't the ONLY indicator, and shouldn't be considered in isolation.


Well, if you wanted to pretend Young's net SB were an extra base, that'd bump him up to a .412 SLG with the Mets, which would be pretty good, but isn't quite the same because the SB doesn't actually drive anyone in the way a double does. It also seems to forget that Juan Lagares is not slow. He hasn't had the success rate in the minors that you'd want, but last year everyone on the Mets stole well. Daniel Murphy had a better SB% than Young Jr.

But really this decision has nothing to do with Young. Can Lagares hit a little more and maybe add value via baserunning too? If so, he's the slam dunk choice. And just that he has the potential to do so is enough. They'll work in EYJr in the beginning, but if Juan proves capable, you'll see him get less and less time (unless of course Chris falters)

Vic Sage
Mar 28 2014 09:13 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

wow, way to respond to an argument that was not being made here.

EY was given some time at SS. The move was criticized because of EY's poor OB% not making him worth investing ABs in even, presumably, at a position where we are in dire need of options. I objected, saying you can't just look at OB% to determine his value.

And you start talking about EY's SLG%, and why Lagares's potential makes him a better OF option, and that Murphy's SB% is better than EY.

Nonsequitor fruitbasket obama whatthefuck?

Yes, we all know you have a hard-on about an EY. His existence perturbs you somehow. Consider your agenda advanced.

Can we return now to the subject of EY getting a surprising opportunity at SS, and why OB% may not tell the whole picture of his (or any player's) value?

Ceetar
Mar 28 2014 09:17 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Vic Sage wrote:

Can we return now to the subject of EY getting a surprising opportunity at SS, and why OB% may not tell the whole picture of his (or any player's) value?


If you want. my point is actually relevant to something the Mets might do though. Figured I'd plug in the numbers while I was thinking about it.

I have nothing to say about Eric Young at SS. It's almost baseball season, and that's not something that's going to happen.

Vic Sage
Mar 28 2014 01:54 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

If Collins was willing to give Justin Turner innings at SS (18g, 115inn last year), who is no more a SS than i am, why wouldn't he give it to EY, an athletic 2bman, if he needs to? And why shouldn't he see what that looks like before heading north?

Edgy MD
Mar 28 2014 02:02 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I would guess some reasons he might not might be because (1) he might view Turner's mobility limitations as less restrictive than Young's relatively weak arm (2) Young hasn't even been in much practice as a secondbaseman, and (3) Turner's innings were probably far less than an ideal choice --- one that Terry'dd probably want to avoid in 2014 if at all possible.

But yeah. Go, Terry! Go, EY!!

Benjamin Grimm
Mar 28 2014 02:05 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
(2) Young hasn't even been in much practice as a secondbaseman


Yeah, but it's his "natural position", whatever that means. I imagine they determine that through DNA testing.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 28 2014 02:25 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Seratelli cut, Internet says.

Edgy MD
Mar 28 2014 02:33 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

That one inning has bumped EY up a spot in the depth chart.

Ceetar
Mar 28 2014 02:36 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
That one inning has bumped EY up a spot in the depth chart.


Won't commit to Q either apparently.

Drew?

Ordonez?

Me?

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Mar 28 2014 03:37 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Yeah. Big St blockbuster back on.

cooby
Mar 31 2014 09:07 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Mixtapewormhole wrote:
Hey thanks! Quasi-new guy, actually. Anything I miss the past, uh, 8 years?

I really like that picture

Frayed Knot
Apr 01 2014 08:29 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Yanquis DFA Eduardo Nunez, once thought to be their heir apparent to Jeter at SS.
OK he's a totally rotten SS (Jeter's err-apparent is more like it) but he can hit a little w/some pop and wouldn't just be limited to SS.
If nothing else having him as the backup/PH --or as an occasional starter with one of the glove-men coming in later on-- would give us two different skill-sets manning that position instead of essentially two guys essentially duplicating the same stuff.

He's still just DFA'd so you may have to trade for him in case someone else out there is interested.

Frayed Knot
Apr 08 2014 09:12 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Nunez winds up getting dealt to the Twinkies for a minor league pitcher.
Olbermann reminded us (or at least claims) on last night's show that the Yanx once failed to complete a trade for Cliff Lee (in 2010 while w/Seattle) because of their refusal to include Eduardo Nunez in the deal.

Edgy MD
Apr 08 2014 09:13 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Eyeball judgment of says Ruben looked solid at short during the Reds series.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 11 2014 11:32 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

This article identifies the Mets as one of three teams positioned to trade for Dodgers SS Hanley Ramirez (29 years old) if the Dodgers are unwilling or unable to extend the free-agent-to-be's contract.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 11 2014 11:42 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
This article identifies the Mets as one of three teams positioned to trade for Dodgers SS Hanley Ramirez (29 years old) if the Dodgers are unwilling or unable to extend the free-agent-to-be's contract.


The Mets might have the trade chips to get Ramirez if he's put on the market, but how would the team keep him? The Mets can pay somebody $20-$25M a year? This I'd like to see.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2014 12:36 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Another Arizona SS has poked his head into the trade rumors -- Nick Ahmed, 24 y/o, currently at AAA Reno hitting to the tune of .304/.385/.401
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minor ... med-000nic
The caution here would be that those numbers are a serious jump from not just last season but from any of his 2+ years of minor league ball, something which could be attributable to the hitting environment of the PCL in general and Reno in particular. Also not a lot of power there although is described as "an elite defender" by the likes of Ken Rosenthal who is reporting that "multiple teams" have contacted the Snakes about his availability.



The other DBacks' SS previously mentioned as being available (as reprinted and updated from page 1 of this thread)

Didi Gregorius - Ariz http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... di01.shtml
-- Mariekson Julius Gregorius, LHB, 23 y/o from Amsterdam in the Netherlands, was originally Reds property before being dealt to the Snakes a year ago in a three-way deal that docked the SS Choo in the river city. But the DBacks have other options at SS (see: Owings, Chris) and may be willing to deal. Hit decently for a rookie though no RoY votes; reportedly a good glove; and although I had thought he had good legs he’s has never been a base-stealer at any level. The MLBN crew thinks he’s a likely NYM target (for whatever that's worth).
Recalled to MLB last week (6 for 20 so far) after hitting .310/.387/.447 in 226 AAA ABs



Chris Owings - Arizona http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... ch01.shtml
-- A 22 y/o 41st overall draft pick out of HS in South Carolina got his ML cuppa late this season.
Minor league numbers are good but mainly in hitting environments (Cal Lg + AAA Reno) and much less so in between at sea-level AA Mobile. It’s his presence that reportedly makes Gregorius available so I’m guessing they like the glove a whole lot. #3 DBacks prospect (and top position player) this winter according to BA. Snakes have been active so far this winter and just dealt their next best prospect, 3B Matt Davidson, to the White Sox for closer Addison Reed.
.270/.309/.431 in 204 ABs w/Arizona in 2014



btw, a bit early to draw any conclusions, but Stephen Drew = 1 single in 14 ABs since his return to Boston

Ashie62
Jun 12 2014 04:31 PM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Nice and all but Sandy is pretty committed to Tejada at the moment..

Ceetar
Jun 13 2014 07:30 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ashie62 wrote:
Nice and all but Sandy is pretty committed to Tejada at the moment..


Well, you do have to play SOMEONE there.

Frayed Knot
Jun 13 2014 08:01 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ashie62 wrote:
Nice and all but Sandy is pretty committed to Tejada at the moment..


I don't believe that Sandy is even remotely committed to Tejada.

Edgy MD
Jun 13 2014 08:05 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Anybody have any taste for seeing if that .418 ObP of Seratelli has any big league applicablity?

I guess it's not particularly sensible to reach for him if they haven't really pumped Wilmer out there for a week or so.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 13 2014 08:08 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Matt Reynolds is having a very good year at AA too. Doesn't hit for any powa, but reaches base a lot. I get the impression they may have some questions as to his readiness to be an actual SS (must have been playing 2B alongside Tovar but Tovar's been hurt).

Edgy MD
Jun 13 2014 08:14 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

I'm ready to try Dykstra there.

I've lived with Turner's lousy defense there, I can live anybody's.

I can't remember who the quote was from. Something like "You can shake a tree and 20 glove guys fall out. Hitting is what makes you a big leaguer." That's where I'm at.

Ceetar
Jun 13 2014 08:19 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Anybody have any taste for seeing if that .418 ObP of Seratelli has any big league applicablity?

I guess it's not particularly sensible to reach for him if they haven't really pumped Wilmer out there for a week or so.


Seratelli's played the OF too, a little more versatile overall. He hasn't really played SS much (but Tejada really isn't the problem) though, he seems more like a Campbell replacement who hasn't really been bad or anything.

Of course, desperate for offense we could probably use both somehow. maybe.

Edgy MD
Jun 13 2014 08:22 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Tejada isn't really the problem. But he's a problem. Right now, the problems run all over the diamond.

Shortstop perhaps is a greater opportunity to find an answer that can impact the team's fate going forward.

Ceetar
Jun 13 2014 08:32 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Tejada isn't really the problem. But he's a problem. Right now, the problems run all over the diamond.

Shortstop perhaps is a greater opportunity to find an answer that can impact the team's fate going forward.


well, in that case maybe the answer is just to play Flores.

Going forward anyway, which we're rapidly approaching as the number 1 priority.

Problems are in flux. they change all the time. Perhaps SS is one with a greater opportunity for long term answers, but maybe not. There isn't exactly a glut of solid dependable long term answers around the league or in the minors. Flores? maybe. It's almost not Seratelli. Or Tovar.

As for the immediate problem of scoring runs, at least Tejada is making out less frequently than the average NLer. Small potatoes and there are lot bigger immediate holes in the offense right now. Of SS with at least 150 PA, Tejada is literally 7th in baseball in not making an out. Not slugging to save his life, but maybe that's why he should be hitting first or second and letting someone else drive him in, rather than 7/8 where he's more likely to need to drive someone in than get driven in by the pitcher, the crappy catcher, or the sorry excuses for leadoff hitters we've used this season. (Eric Young doesn't drive anyone in either)

Edgy MD
Jun 13 2014 08:37 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ceetar wrote:
well, in that case maybe the answer is just to play Flores.

I kind of said as much.

Ceetar
Jun 13 2014 09:09 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
well, in that case maybe the answer is just to play Flores.

I kind of said as much.


yeah. Then you started grasping for other ideas. Diluting the cause. None of those other things are going to happen for the same reason they're not playing Flores every day.

They're still bridging that gap between best chance to win now, and best for the future growth. I don't think anyone thinks Tejada is the longterm answer anymore. I think they're desperately hoping Flores hits for 3-4 games in a row so they can just toss him out there and forget about Ruben, but they're not yet willing to just play the prospect guy and he hasn't even come close to hitting enough to pretend he's making progress.

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 13 2014 09:21 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Well, Flores can't hit in four consecutive games unless he plays in four consecutive games.

Ceetar
Jun 13 2014 09:29 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Well, Flores can't hit in four consecutive games unless he plays in four consecutive games.


Can we start with hitting in two maybe?

I'm all on board with playing Flores a lot and seeing if he can be part of the future, but please, show me something to warrant playing time!

Frayed Knot
Jun 13 2014 09:40 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ruben's decent OBP (.339) is being somewhat pumped up by his [u:3fgp9jvd]5 IBBs[/u:3fgp9jvd], something that's more a matter of where he has hit than how.
Take away those--which wouldn't happen if hitting 1st--and he's down in the .310 range

Edgy MD
Jun 13 2014 09:49 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Ceetar wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
well, in that case maybe the answer is just to play Flores.

I kind of said as much.


yeah. Then you started grasping for other ideas. Diluting the cause. None of those other things are going to happen for the same reason they're not playing Flores every day.

Anybody else think I was serious about Allan Dykstra?

Ceetar
Jun 13 2014 10:01 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Edgy MD wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
well, in that case maybe the answer is just to play Flores.

I kind of said as much.


yeah. Then you started grasping for other ideas. Diluting the cause. None of those other things are going to happen for the same reason they're not playing Flores every day.

Anybody else think I was serious about Allan Dykstra?


I don't think you were serious, just spitballing.

Ceetar
Jun 13 2014 10:02 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

Frayed Knot wrote:
Ruben's decent OBP (.339) is being somewhat pumped up by his 5 IBBs, something that's more a matter of where he has hit than how.
Take away those--which wouldn't happen if hitting 1st--and he's down in the .310 range


True, but those were also a while ago. And his numbers are actually better recently.

Frayed Knot
Jun 13 2014 10:14 AM
Re: ShortStop 2014

All this SS talk reminds me that Jose Reyes turned 31 y/o this past week, making it also the 11th anniversary of his ML debut.
Career totals to date = .291/.342/.438 with a 162 G/Avg of 198 Hits, 35 2Bs, 14 3Bs, 13 HRs, 53 SBs, 13 CS, 54 BB, 76 K, 107 OPS+

The problem comes when you figure that, on average, those 162 games took him well over 1 season to play as one season for him was more like 123 Games Played; 564 PAs; 517 ABs
Put another way that means he's missed just short of 1/4 of the time since his call-up so those 11 seasons turn into 8 seasons/58 games