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Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) ....

batmagadanleadoff Mar 06 2014 08:09 AM

Terry Collins might bat the pitcher eighth this season. Why Collins is considering batting Mets pitcher 8th in lineup Whatcha thihnk? And what's, as Collins puts it, an "RBI guy"?

Benjamin Grimm Mar 06 2014 08:22 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

To me it seems like a way for a manager to look smart because he's doing something unorthodox, but I doubt that it has any real impact. Terry wants Wright to have three hitters before him in the lineup. He can achieve that by batting David fourth, but then he'll get fewer plate appearances. (Probably 18 fewer, since the final batter of the game can be any of the nine positions and they're likely to be more or less evenly distributed.) But by doing this, the pitcher's spot will get 18 additional plate appearances. Of course, the pitcher would never be the last batter of the game, so those 18 at bats would be taken by pinch hitters. And it should be said that the count of 18 only applies if Terry bats the pitcher eighth every game of the year. If he does it nine times, then it will only affect one game, and that effect can easily be a negative one. Me, I wouldn't bother. Unless I had a pitcher who could really hit.

Ceetar Mar 06 2014 08:32 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Me, I wouldn't bother. Unless I had a pitcher who could really hit. Jon Niese has added 0.9 WAR in his career with the bat. .167/.246/.195 Dice K (who shouldn't start) is next with 0, and a .192/.192/.192 Colon is -0.7 .093/.102/.093. Neither him nor Dice K have ever walked. Jon Niese has 22 walks.

Edgy MD Mar 06 2014 08:34 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

What LaRussa had successfully come to realize is that the traditional practice of keeping the pitcher as far as possible away from the start of the game to diminish his at-bats was established and affirmed in a time when pitchers were more likely than not to finish what they started. In latter days, pitchers rarely take that extra at-bat, so a rising concern is to keep his at-bats --- and the likely out that they represent, further away from good hitters and the potential rallies that follow them around. Presumably more than David Wright, but the first and second hitters are also good hitters that you don't want to hurt with the pitcher's automatic out. At least, they're presumably good hitters relative to the the seventh hitter. (Doesn't always work out that way, of course.) The hidden downside is this makes that much more likely to occur that point of fateful and painful decision in the seventh --- when you have to choose whether to let your flailing pitcher bat in a close game or leave him in. That decision doesn't occur in the ninth anymore --- LaRussa is right about that --- but it still occurs. I batted the pitcher eighth for about two months in one of my fake baseball seasons, trying to get an extra table setter in there. The lineup didn't seem to click any better and I abandoned it. It seemed as likely that I'd get two of the guys in middle of the lineup on with two outs and the pitcher would come up then. Ugh.

TransMonk Mar 06 2014 09:19 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

Doesn't some of the equation depend on the makeup of the everyday and/or platoon lineups (i.e., who's leading off, who's batting second, who would've batted eighth)? Overall, I don't think it would make a noticeable difference.

Ashie62 Mar 06 2014 09:54 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

Terry Collins...don't get in over your head...

vtmet Mar 06 2014 08:49 PM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

Wright's has the best OBP on the team, and has decent speed...Terry could get real creative and bat Wright leadoff, with the pitcher 6th, EYjr 7th, Daniel Murphy 8th and Chris Young 9th... that way, TC has the guy most likely to get on base and also most likely to score leading off the game...and Wright still gets to act like TC's pseudo-cleanup hitter...

metirish Mar 06 2014 09:05 PM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

I wonder if the 90 win nonsense has TC thinking way outside his comfort zone?

Zvon Mar 06 2014 09:35 PM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

vtmet wrote: Wright's has the best OBP on the team, and has decent speed...Terry could get real creative and bat Wright leadoff, with the pitcher 6th, EYjr 7th, Daniel Murphy 8th and Chris Young 9th... that way, TC has the guy most likely to get on base and also most likely to score leading off the game...and Wright still gets to act like TC's pseudo-cleanup hitter... Wright leading off is an interesting thought. The rest, I dunno. I'd have EYjr 9th for the turnover. I was like whatever when I first heard of this pitcher batting 8th stuff but after reading Larussa's comments I find it does make some sense.

TheOldMole Mar 07 2014 06:34 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

St. Louis Browns used to bat Ned Garver 7th -- in addition to being their ace, he was one of their best hitters.

Ceetar Mar 07 2014 07:21 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

Zvon wrote: vtmet wrote: Wright's has the best OBP on the team, and has decent speed...Terry could get real creative and bat Wright leadoff, with the pitcher 6th, EYjr 7th, Daniel Murphy 8th and Chris Young 9th... that way, TC has the guy most likely to get on base and also most likely to score leading off the game...and Wright still gets to act like TC's pseudo-cleanup hitter... Wright leading off is an interesting thought. The rest, I dunno. I'd have EYjr 9th for the turnover. I was like whatever when I first heard of this pitcher batting 8th stuff but after reading Larussa's comments I find it does make some sense. Batting order makes such a minor difference in run scoring anyway, particularly 8th/9th. Wright's not a power guy exactly but I think he's too valuable to constantly have the crap of the lineup in front of him, though it's not a horrible idea. pitcher 6th though is pushing it. That gives him the 3th AB a game even if the Mets haven't scored a lot of runs. And you're more often than not taking away an AB from a guy like Murphy or Young who are presumably going to be above average hitters and giving it to the pitcher. That's probably worse than bunting and wasting an out. No lineup should have EYjr in it unless this is a getaway day B lineup.

Edgy MD Mar 07 2014 07:25 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

I think batting order makes more difference that the computer models suggest, as the behavior and approach (and therefore outcome) of batters change somewhat based on their situation.

TransMonk Mar 07 2014 07:31 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

metirish wrote: I wonder if the 90 win nonsense has TC thinking way outside his comfort zone? Not for nothing, but I hope Terry isn't getting too comfortable looking back at 3 losing seasons in a row. 90 wins might be nonsense, but I think Terry needs to find a way to get 80+ out of this squad. Not that this idea is the best one...but with his extension, my expectations for him have gone up. I'm glad he is at least thinking outside of the box a bit.

metirish Mar 07 2014 07:36 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

No doubt, progress needs to happen, I don't think this is a lockdown division for any team, Mets have a shot.

Lefty Specialist Mar 07 2014 07:37 AM Re: Batting 8th (8th, 8th), The Pitcher (Pitcher, Pitcher) .

The problem is that the person they'd have batting 9th could easily be a .200 hitter. What's Carlos Zambrano doing these days?