Master Index of Archived Threads


Met Killaz??: Tony Gwynn et al

Frayed Knot Jan 13 2006 04:12 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 13 2006 04:40 PM

Gwynn's [url=http://ultimatemets.com/opponent.php?PlayerCode=3100]numbers[/url] from UMBD Pretty durn good, but it IS Tony Gwynn we're talking about here. Boiled down to an average length season (617 ABs acc to Bas-Ref) it winds up as: R H 2B HR AVG SLG RBI SB vs NYM 97 219 42 10 .356 .486 75 18 vs ALL 92 209 36 9 .338 .459 76 21 Better, but not ridiculously so. Probably closer to just random variation.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 13 2006 04:20 PM Re: Met Killaz: Tony Gwynn

Frayed Knot wrote: Probably closer to just random variation. Mebbe not. You got to take into account that half of this is at Shea, where his production should be (but wasn't) a shade lower than normal, I think, AND check out Gwynn's road-/home advantage--if SD wasn't a hitter's park for most of his career, then he didn't have that much of an advantage at home either against the mets, making this looking even better AND you need to account for OBP--if he hit for more power against the Mets but lost some OBP, then it's pretty much a wash. But if he also got an improvement in OBP, then I'd say it was more than a blip on the radar screen.

seawolf17 Jan 13 2006 04:21 PM

Pat Burrell (normalized to 584 AB season): R H 2B HR AVG SLG RBI SB vs NYM 91 149 27 50 .255 .567 131 2 vs ALL 81 151 32 30 .258 .476 105 1 Yowza.

Nymr83 Jan 13 2006 04:25 PM

well within what would be expected given his stats, you'll get a few extra hits here and there against a team and its just luck...those aren't Chipper Jones numbers.

Edgy DC Jan 13 2006 04:26 PM

Yabbut, going against Ron Darling for a full year... AB H 2B 3B HR BB IBB SO HBP SH SF AVG OBP SLG OPS 617 272 52 21 0 21 21 63 0 0 10 .441 .452 .593 1.045 Not only does he break Geore Sisler's hit record before Ichiro (and put it out of Ichiro's reach), but you've got too think he'd do it running away, because Darling would eventually get tired of pitching to him for a full season.

cooby Jan 13 2006 04:27 PM

How did you guys do that? I wanted to look for Schmidt vs Mets

seawolf17 Jan 13 2006 04:31 PM

Chipper's Mets numbers aren't actually too different from his overall numbers. Two or three more homers, but other than that, pretty close.

Frayed Knot Jan 13 2006 04:34 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 13 2006 04:37 PM

And I suppose to be REALLY accurate here we'd want to first take out the player's 'vs NYM' numbers from the total numbers so we'd be comparing how he did against the Mets only to how he did against NON-Mets. With Burrell that would make the power numbers even more lop-sided as he's actually somewhat LESS than a 30-HR guy against all others (approx 27.6/yr) ... and nearly double that against the blue & orange (although normal in most other respects except for the not-surprising accompanying rise in SLG & RBI)

Edgy DC Jan 13 2006 04:35 PM

Coo: 1) Go to the UMDB. 2) From the "Other Teams" dropdown menu, choose "Phillies." 3) From the banner at the top pick "Phillies Players." 4) Click on Schmidtty.

seawolf17 Jan 13 2006 04:35 PM

Mike Schmidt: (1) Open up their b-r.com and umdb.com pages. (2) Figure out the scale factor, based on a 162-game season (at the bottom of their b-r stats). Schmidt's average 162-game season was 563 AB; he had 910 AB against the Mets. Therefore, you divide all his Mets stats by 1.616 (910/563). You get: R H 2B HR AVG SLG RBI TB vs NYM 98 144 22 30 .255 .474 100 267 vs ALL 101 151 27 37 .267 .527 107 297 Actually a little worse against the Mets than his overall numbers.

cooby Jan 13 2006 04:38 PM

Thanks! That is a part of UMDB I never realized existed...

seawolf17 Jan 13 2006 04:39 PM

Yet another reason why the UMDB is the Greatest. Site. Ever.

cooby Jan 13 2006 04:40 PM

Here's his chart, I see what you did Seawolf, but still his numbers were pretty good. I knew there was a reason I have always hated him! http://ultimatemets.com/opponent.php?PlayerCode=6000

Yancy Street Gang Jan 13 2006 04:41 PM

I like it too!

Bret Sabermetric Jan 13 2006 04:43 PM

Nymr83 wrote: well within what would be expected given his stats, you'll get a few extra hits here and there against a team and its just luck...those aren't Chipper Jones numbers. Not sure you mean Gwynn or Burrell here, but ALL of this team-killer stuff is luck, because even a lifetime of chances is a small sample. Take Frank Lary's record against the Yankees lifetime, earning him the nickname "Yankee Killer" (and probably earning him 2 tours here.) Lary went something like 23-14, which was a small improvement over his w/l pct vs other teams, but all he had to was lose or two of those games, and his edge would be just about nothing. And you know that one or two of those 23 had to be close games.

Frayed Knot Jan 13 2006 04:45 PM

"but still his numbers were pretty good. I knew there was a reason I have always hated him!" Schmidt's numbers are good, but that's mostly because he's Mike Schmidt! The trick in finding "A Killah" is to find guys who were better than their norm against the Mets. Schmidt, it turns out, was actually somewhat worse (worse being a relative term and all). I suspect the subset of MLB players that fans of a given team THINK were better against their squad probably approaches 90%

Johnny Dickshot Jan 13 2006 05:46 PM

There isn't much magical about any particular boiled-down matchup that couldn't be explained away with proper amounts of lucky and bad breaks, prolly. What Ron Darling and I agree on tho is the perception of one. I can barely remember a Met game in which Tony Gwynn didn't kill us. I mean, I'm sure they exist and all, but, you know, like, whatever.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 13 2006 06:21 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I mean, I'm sure they exist and all, but, you know, like, whatever. Brilliant! ... Astutely worded! ... First-rate! Johnny Dickshot wrote: What Ron Darling and I agree on tho is the perception of one. I can barely remember a Met game in which Tony Gwynn didn't kill us. If only you had lent Willie that kind of support for his memory of the Billy Williams 3 HRs in Chi and two roundtrip airplane tickets on a 14-year-old's allowance.

Nymr83 Jan 13 2006 07:14 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Not sure you mean Gwynn or Burrell here, but ALL of this team-killer stuff is luck, because even a lifetime of chances is a small sample. well, there could be reasons behind it such as the team he kills having bad pitching or their park being heavily biased towards righties/lefties

MFS62 Jan 13 2006 09:36 PM

Are pitchers included? Its the weekend and my shitty browser doesn't let me drill down on most sites below the main screen. Can someone please do a Met vs rest for Mike Krukow? Thanks in advance. Later

SI Metman Jan 13 2006 09:37 PM

I thought Willie Stargell was another Met killer since I believe he has the homer record for a Met opponent (60), but his numbers aren't that far above his career norms. It was done on longevity.

cooby Jan 13 2006 10:10 PM

MFS62 wrote: Are pitchers included? Its the weekend and my shitty browser doesn't let me drill down on most sites below the main screen. Can someone please do a Met vs rest for Mike Krukow? Thanks in advance. Later Another pitcher--Al Hrbosky Ugh

Frayed Knot Jan 14 2006 09:07 AM

Mike Krukow - The Polish Prince He was 22 - 7 overall in 44 games (39 starts) between his stints on the Giants, Phils & Cubs. Boiled down to a "average season" (206 IPs) it comes down to: G/GS IP W - L ERA K BB vs NYM 37/33 206 18.5 - 6 3.69 142 73 vs ALL 34/33 206 11 - 10 3.90 138 72 Obviously a great W - L record without being wildly better in any of the components stats. The "Killer" tag probably comes mostly from the fact that he was 4-0 vs the great Met team in '86, plus 3-0 then 2-0 against their good teams in '88 & '89

Edgy DC Jan 14 2006 09:26 AM

He was 6-0 with wicked low ERAs versus them from 1981 to 1983 also, on three different teams.

MFS62 Jan 14 2006 10:21 AM

What made him especially hateful was the fact that in games when the Mets would hit him, his team would score enough to take him off the hook for the loss (and sometimes give him the win). Plus, he always seemed to have a smirk on his face that I wanted to wipe off with a sledgehammer. And Kiner loves him. I think he's the one who named him the Polish Prince. And, after Mike retired, when Ralph was at the mike on tv games, he would always have the cameras show Krukow in the other announcing booth. Drove me nuts. Why pay tribute to the enemy? Later

Zvon Jan 16 2006 06:58 AM

I thought maybe Glenn Wilson was just a Met killer when I went to games, but I looked him up. He was in '85 and '87 although over all (with Pirates too) a .294 batter vs the Mets. As a Phil he hurt the Mets most Wow,.in '85 he had 23 hits,7 doubles, 5 homers, 18 RBIs and a .365 ba. A .746 slugging %>>>>>>Thats pulverizin the Mets. Von Hayes was another who would hurt the Mets so bad at Philly games I went to. Overall his career, not so much. But afew yrs he did. In '86 he had 25 hits, 7 doubles, 4 homers, 16 RBI and a .357 ba. In '85 he smacked 2 and drove in 6 in one game. I had to sit thru that, and I remember going home thinkin DAMN YOU VON HAYES!.

Frayed Knot Jan 16 2006 09:20 AM

"In '85 [Hayes] smacked 2 and drove in 6 in one game" Not just in one game, in one INNING!

Edgy DC Jan 16 2006 10:48 AM

I remember it as 5 RBI in one inning, leading off the game with a homer, then coming around again before the inning was over and hitting a grand slam, putting the Mets down something like eight- or nine-zip right out of the gate.

Zvon Jan 16 2006 07:38 PM

ha! Thanks for reminding me of those details. I do remember that they were Met fan deflating monsterous moonshots and I really held them against poor Mr. Hayes in a very personal and unprofessional manner for the rest of his suckazz career.

DocTee Jan 16 2006 08:09 PM

I remember some fool saying Von Hayes would be the next Ted Williams-- and Ralph Kiner shooting back that the only resemblance was in their uniform numbers! Hayes was the centerpiece of a multi-player trade and was much bally-hooed....later, he was just loudly booed.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 16 2006 10:52 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I remember it as 5 RBI in one inning, leading off the game with a homer, then coming around again before the inning was over and hitting a grand slam, putting the Mets down something like eight- or nine-zip right out of the gate. It was Jose Reyes' [url=http://ultimatemets.com/gamedetail.php?gameno=3739] second birthday [/url], and Frank Thomas's 56th.

Zvon Jan 16 2006 11:36 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Edgy DC"]I remember it as 5 RBI in one inning, leading off the game with a homer, then coming around again before the inning was over and hitting a grand slam, putting the Mets down something like eight- or nine-zip right out of the gate. It was Jose Reyes' [url=http://ultimatemets.com/gamedetail.php?gameno=3739] second birthday [/url], and Frank Thomas's 56th. wow,how bout that? I remember the Phils had this P.R. campaign in which Hayes was profiled as an eligible bachelor. At the end he was flashing this ringless ring finger. It may have been the worst team draw ad I have ever seen. Even my Philly friends were hurlin. A side note on Schmidt. He goes on my personal Met killaz list because in '86, the Mets had 3 chances (if i remember right)...THREE CHANCES to clinch in Philly in September. (Im almost positive this was the situation) I went to all three games. Had these great seats for one of em right behind home plate. Gooden was going and I was sooooo confident I was gonna be attending the Met clincher. Schmidt hit this line drive homer to center off Doc.....I swear it was out in the centerfield seats in the blink of an eye. Dont think i ever saw a ball leave a park so quick, before or since. The Mets ended up losing all three games. Mr. Schmidt, you have been on my chit list ever since.

Bret Sabermetric Jan 17 2006 07:08 AM

"It was Jose Reyes' second birthday" Man, is he young! "and Frank Thomas's 56th." Man, is he old! Man, am I middleaged. June 11, 1985 also would have been my mom's 70th birthday, so you can see where I would tend to remember June 11ths. That was the worst shellacking I can ever remember the Mets taking. Just totally demoralizing.