Master Index of Archived Threads


Comic Books

Impulse2 Jan 14 2006 09:23 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 14 2006 10:21 PM

well, someone around here told me that there were comic book geeks hanging out, and yet i couldn't find a comic book thread. If there is one and I somehow missed it, feel free to point me on my merry way and delete this. Otherwise, I felt it apropriate to start with comics, given the screename. I'm a DC girl, I'm currently reading Teen Titans, Justice, and Infinate Crisis mainly. Little bit of Flash, some other stuff I borrow from my friends. My favorite hero is The Bat, though I'm more partial to villains. I love Joker and Harley Quinn best. So, everyone's comic-universes, characters, preferences? (also, if someone could give me tips on how to make this picture smaller? ^^; )

ScarletKnight41 Jan 14 2006 09:36 PM

Hey Impulse - Welcome aboard!

Elster88 Jan 14 2006 10:48 PM

Welcome.

TheOldMole Jan 15 2006 10:21 AM

Not a great comic book scholar, but here's a brush-with-greatness. Ron Marz (Silver Surfer, Green Lantern, Witchblade, etc.) was a student of mine.

Matt Murdock, Esq. Jan 15 2006 07:04 PM

gosh, have YOU missed alot of comic book talk! I can't begin to find the very many threads over the years around here. I think most of them were lost in the PoolQuake of 04. I wish i'd saved some of them. there was an excellent discussion of Jack Kirby, spinning off of a silver surfer thread. there's been many a "comic book movie" thread. there was a "best graphic novels" thread. i'm just too tired to repeat all that stuff. If R.Kivest can find any of it, i'd like to see it. Oh, by the way, Johnny's dad is a great comicbook artist of the 70s. He autographed some books for me once. Its good to see another geek on board... especially a female one. There are so few of you around.

Impulse2 Jan 15 2006 09:08 PM

heh, I figured there must have been some comic threads. I don't really know much about artists or real-world stuff, but I (like to think I) have a lot to say about what's going on in the DCU. For example, I just had a good 15-minute discussion tonight about Batman's emotional issues. Guess that's a female geek thing ^_^ For my own reference though, so I don't end up going on about something no one cares about, I'll repeat the question of DC/Marvel, favorite characters and the like.

Matt Murdock, Esq. Jan 15 2006 11:12 PM

AHAH! You are the offspring of C-Mom and D-Dad, aren't you? La Diva, in cyberflesh, yes? Your mom has been trying to fix us up for years. She seems to want me sent to prison, for some reason.

Impulse2 Jan 15 2006 11:35 PM

XD yes, that's me. I figure I'll be hanging around mostly here and on the theatre thread.

Yancy Street Gang Jan 16 2006 09:02 AM

As you can tell from my screen name and the avatar, I'm more of a Marvel-FF guy. I'm not too in touch with what's going on currently. Every couple of months ago I stop in a comics shop and buy a few titles, but I'm no longer familiar with the names of the creators and even many of the characters. My favorite period was Marvel's Silver Age. In the last few years I've been revisiting a lot of Marvel classics as bedtime reading with my son. He's well-versed in the history of the Marvel Universe, at least through the 1970's. (Although he does know some of the later stuff too.)

seawolf17 Jan 16 2006 09:34 AM

A startling number of DiamondKnights have invaded the board! Head for the hills!

soupcan Jan 16 2006 12:31 PM

I'm strictly Marvel silver age as well. Fantastic Four are my addiction.

OlerudOwned Jan 16 2006 01:37 PM

I don't read comics, but I love the comic covers on [url=http://www.superdickery.com/galleries.html]Superdickery[/url]. ]It's cowboys... fighting Nazis... in space... *Head a'splode* And that's terrible

Impulse2 Jan 16 2006 06:20 PM

XD!! is that all from Superdickery? That can't be real. The Luthor I know wouldn't be caught dead doing something so inane in such a terrible outfit. (We'll conveniently ignore his lime-green super-suit)

Edgy DC Jan 16 2006 11:16 PM

Well, know the truth about Luther. World domination? It was all about the cakes. What I love about Superdickery is that it always seemed liked Cooby was writing the captions.

TheOldMole Jan 17 2006 12:45 AM

Willets Point Jan 17 2006 01:53 AM

Every time I think I've seen the funniest one yet: ]I try and imagine a series of comics put out by Radio Shack about a pair of kids doing things like foiling international drug rings with their with their friggin' Tandy computers, but then I have to stop to shove tissue up my nose to stop the bleeding.

MFS62 Jan 17 2006 12:26 PM

I was a fan of the original Captain Marvel. Shazaam! Later

TheOldMole Jan 17 2006 12:52 PM

Only one A. From Memory: Solomon -- Wisdom Hercules -- Strength Atlas -- Stamina Zeus -- can't remember Athena -- can't remember Mercury - Speed or the Mad version: SHAZOOM Strength Health Aptitude Zeal Ox, Power of Ox, Power of another Money!

MFS62 Jan 17 2006 01:07 PM

Thanks, Mole. Funny the things you remember, and don't. I drew the same blanks.

Impulse2 Jan 17 2006 04:55 PM

because obviously, communist governments spend their free time strangling citizens. That's totally conductive to an environment with a lot of working people. yup. nothing overblown or propagandized about that one. no sir-ee.

sharpie Jan 17 2006 05:00 PM

The first Communist is an old man who is having a bit of fun with his friend of a different race. The second Communist is about to give mouth-to-mouth recussitation to a nearly drowned woman. The third Communist is performing the Heimlich maneuver. What's this about strangling?

OlerudOwned Jan 17 2006 05:03 PM

Impulse2 wrote: XD!! is that all from Superdickery? That can't be real. The Luthor I know wouldn't be caught dead doing something so inane in such a terrible outfit. (We'll conveniently ignore his lime-green super-suit) I think it was from a children's dictionary

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:20 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 17 2006 05:47 PM

the following posts are comics-related stuff i've posted over the years, to the extent it survived the great Pool crash of 04. first, some comics related threads from the archives: Fantastic 4 personnel http://p079.ezboard.com/fthecranepoolforumfrm34.showMessage?topicID=58.topic Spider-man encyclopedia http://p079.ezboard.com/fthecranepoolforumfrm34.showMessage?topicID=122.topic Spider-man musical http://p079.ezboard.com/fthecranepoolforumfrm34.showMessage?topicID=187.topic Superman songs http://p079.ezboard.com/fthecranepoolforumfrm34.showMessageRange?topicID=168.topic&start=1&stop=20 Aquaman http://p079.ezboard.com/fthecranepoolforumfrm16.showMessage?topicID=78.topic http://p079.ezboard.com/fthecranepoolforumfrm16.showMessage?topicID=449.topic now, here are some reviews and threads and essays saved from other threads over the years.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:21 PM who is Vic Sage?

THE QUESTION Vic Sage learned to fight growing up, having been orphaned on the rough and corrupt streets of Hub City. He grew up into a popular investigative TV news reporter. But at night, he donned a “Pseudoderm” mask that glued to his face and bonded to his skin when a special gas was released from his belt. His features concealed, he could still see and breathe. The gas also changed the color of his hair and clothes, making him a completely anonymous crime fighter…. the nameless, faceless enigma known as The Question. The Question was tough, arrogant, self-righteous and convinced he was invincible. But when he fought his nemesis, Lady Shiva, she defeated him. Her thugs broke his bones, shot him in the head and tossed him into the river… but he didn’t die. Shiva, having seen in him a true warrior's spirit, saved him. She brought him to martial artist Richard Dragon in his mountain retreat, who agreed to train Sage. A year later, he returned home a changed man – he had not only developed his fighting skills, but had learned a philosophy of life that was to shape his moral and ethical behavior thereafter. Instead of imposing his own violent answers on the world, he was looking for the truth --about himself, about his thirst for violence, and about the world. Vic Sage had become the cultured philosopher-warrior… The Question. "It's not the answers that matter, it's the questions."

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:22 PM DAREDEVIL review

DARE-DRIVEL? Well, It’s no bull’s eye, but… My expectations were low once I heard they hired Ben Affleck to star as Daredevil. They want this sneering, frat house pretty boy to play Matt Murdock? Puhleez. Plus, writer-director Mark Steven Johnson is an “auteur” that has auteur-ed nothing of any interest. When I started seeing the trailers, my hopes sunk even further. That ridiculous costume… the derivative, clichéd fight scenes...the unappealing look and feel. Feh. Of course, there were some positives too. Jennifer Garner (“Alias”) as Elektra was a nice piece of casting, as was Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin, and Colin Ferrell as Bullseye. Joey Pants as newspaperman Ben Urich seemed a good idea too, as did Jon Favreau as Murdock’s law partner, fat Foggy Nelson. But still, a donut with delicious frosting still has a hole in the middle. And the hole in the middle of DAREDEVIL was Affleck. Then the reviews came out and substantiated my worst expectations. Still, I had to see for myself and, surprisingly, what I discovered was that (like the TWILIGHT ZONE) this movie exists somewhere between the pit of my fears and the summit of my knowledge. It didn’t deserve the drubbing it got from most of the press, who seemed intent on beating it up for their own reasons. Neither, however, does it deserve a place in the (admittedly small) pantheon of great comic book movie adaptations. It is, however, a serviceable action entertainment with some nice qualities, despite its shortcomings. Did I say qualities? Yes I did. As expected, all the supporting characters were well played by an excellent cast Clark was sufficiently imposing; Farrell was charismatically insane and sadistic; and Favreau and Pantoliano both were suitably affable and decent, and utterly believable. . Heck, even Garner and Affleck gave off some sparks. What else? Hmmm… well, some of the action is well choreographed and shot. The violent and sexy pas de deux between Matt and Elektra in the playground is kind of clever and neat. Overall, the fight scenes are not particularly inspired or stylized in, say, a John Woo-ish kind of way, but they are efficient and engaging enough. And I will not hold the fake-looking CGI effects against them, as it’s no worse than the highly lauded SPIDER-MAN, or other SFX movies of recent vintage. While DD’s costume is as stiff as the trailers led me to believe, most of the other design aspects of the film are first rate. Farrell’s Bullseye is an especially compelling-looking creature. The church setting for Bullseye’s final confrontation with DD is becoming a staple of the genre, but is still well presented here. And at least the liturgical ambiance is thematically appropriate in a battle between two Irishmen on the sidewalks and rooftops of Hell’s Kitchen. And Matt’s apartment, too, is evocative… indicative of his character, as the Bat-Cave is for Bruce Wayne. And the script… well, it tries hard to take its source material seriously. It is obviously crafted with some level of affection and respect, and does not at all condescend to the genre, as so many 3rd rate comic book adaptations have, over the years. Unfortunately, the script isn’t also crafted with an equal amount of skill. The dialogue is often cheesy in the extreme, and the voiceover narration is painfully bad. The themes… well, here there are some big changes from the source material. (SPOILER WARNING) They’ve made Matt’s accident the result of his tearful and careless flight from the scene of his father’s corrupt activities, instead of the result of Matt’s selfless act. And they’ve made DD into a psycho vigilante willing to kill the bad guys. Of course, they do this so Matt can have an arc to his character and ultimately be redeemed. Unfortunately, the redemption is so clumsily developed that it seems unearned and unbelievable. His willingness to spare Kingpin’s life (after having, just moments earlier, hurled Bullseye out a church window, apparently to his death) is literally laughable, causing much guffawing in the audience. (END WARNING) Still, it was an effort at character development (however inept) that should be noted for its rarity amongst most Hollywood films these days. And there is virtue in the nascent (albeit stillborn) notion of the Devil/Angel dichotomy within Matt Murdock. He’s an Irish Catholic guy, still making his confessions to his priest, while dressed as a satanic figure. He is a lawyer defending the poor during the day (on practically a pro bono basis), and at night he’s a slightly psychotic vigilante seemingly unconcerned with his body count. He ends up in a death struggle with another Irishman (perhaps his soulless doppelganger), and the Church is their final battleground. In fact, the film opens with a bleeding DD clinging to the church steeple. This undeveloped metaphysical thread could’ve set the stage for Murdock’s spiritual transformation, but instead it is all treated as stained-glass window dressing. Alas. The movie does do well in capturing the notion of a “man without fear.” Murdock throws himself off rooftops without a moment’s hesitation. He slides along metal handrails, runs up walls, and careens over the city… fearlessly. The film movingly depicts Matt’s blindness as both the source of his greatest limitations (he needs the rain to fall so the percussive drops can allow him to “see” the woman he loves, but he can also use that sound to locate his greatest enemy), but his disability is also the key to his ultimate freedom from human timidity. So, despite what you may have heard, DAREDEVIL doesn’t suck. It’s no great shakes, mind you, but the reviews might lead you to believe it’s in PUNISHER or BATMAN & ROBIN territory. Well, it’s not. The film moves along well enough, and is mildly engaging without being excessively assaultive to even our merely human senses. Affleck was still the wrong choice, but there is enough on this frosty donut to satisfy the Homer Simpson within those of us easily satisfied by relatively empty calories.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:23 PM Gil Kane, in memory of...

May 9, 2000 Maggie Thompson, Editor OH, SO/Letters Column Comic Buyer’s Guide Krause Publishing Dear Maggie: Last Friday (5/5/00), I attended a memorial service for the late Gil Kane at the NY offices of DC Comics. A number of people spoke about Mr. Kane... some were funny, some rambling, some nostalgic and rueful. Hosted by Gary Groth, the speakers included Roy Thomas, Julie Schwartz, Howard Chaykin, Mike Carlin, and Gil’s son, Eric Kane. Also, some 22-year old college boy, fresh out of Fordham, got up to tell us repeatedly that “no one could draw like Gil Kane.” Raw with emotion over the passing of someone he never knew, this kid’s passion should have touched everyone in the room. I came that day because Eric Kane had once been a friend of mine, and because I love comics and admired Gil Kane’s work. Though the podium was open to anyone who wanted to speak, I felt it inappropriate for me to say anything since I hadn’t seen Eric in 12 years and since I didn’t know Gil Kane at all. Still, on the way home that night, I composed my thoughts and sent them along to Eric. I send them to you as well, to share with fellow CBG readers: About 12 years ago, my friend Barry was going to law school and he had a big apartment in New York City. Barry would rent out the extra room and he went through roommates at an alarming rate. Finally, he got a fellow law student, a fellow named Eric, to share the place. When I met Eric and realized what a sports fan he was, I really got into hanging out and talking to this tall, lanky, Brillo-headed guy… this Eric Kane. We were in his room one day when I noticed a drawing on the wall. A figure of a barbarian, with that tell-tale nose, and the more-than-human musculature and grace that could only have come from one man. I looked closer to find the signature to confirm what I already knew: This guy had an original Gil Kane sketch hanging on his wall. "Hey, you're into Gil Kane?" I exclaimed, enthused to find a fellow traveler in more than baseball. "I sorta haveta be," Eric said. "He's my dad." “Dad?” I just couldn't process it. Eric's dad was GIL KANE? They DID have the same last name, but still... how could it be true? It didn't occur to me that people like Gil Kane could HAVE children. They weren't really people, after all. They were just ideas. Mr. Kane depicted idealized but recognizable human beings of unsurpassed beauty, grace, power and humanity… an ideal that we could strive toward as a species. Kane couldn't be an actual person, could he? He was just a platonic abstraction, after all... an idea we have of ourselves. How could an abstraction have a son? And, what’s more, a son that didn't even like comics! It was as if Babe Ruth's daughter was utterly uninterested in baseball and cared only about stamp collecting. Well, I thought to myself, I would sure know what it meant if he was MY father! Despite my barely concealed jealousy, Eric and I hung out a lot that year, never really talking comics, sticking to sports and movies. He graduated that year; moved up to New Hampshire and I haven't seen him since... until today. However, a few year after Eric moved away, early 1993 I think, I went to a comics convention in NYC at the Javitz Center. I had brought my copy of Marvel Premiere #1 (The Power of Warlock!) to have signed by Gil Kane, who was to be in attendance. When I entered the huge autograph room, my heart sank. The room had a huge line, but it led only to Rob Liefeld... the road to hell, indeed. Mr. and Mrs. Kane were sitting at another table, almost alone. I stored that moment in the LIFE IS NOT FAIR file and walked up to the Kanes, shakily holding out my comic to Gil, like some kind of totemic offering. He smiled, took it graciously, signed it, and handed it back. The ball was in my court... I could either speak to him, or just say “thank you” and leave. Suddenly, I blurted out the words "I KNOW YOU'RE SON", in an overloud, almost accusatory, tone. His eyes opened wide and his wife, Elaine, smiled at me and we all started talking about Eric, his life in New Hampshire, and so on. I was a little surprised that they had indeed verified Eric's status as their child. But I was really touched by how touched they were to talk about him. As I think back on that now, sitting here in this room filled with people who cared about Gil Kane, and as I hear the emotion coming out of some 22 year old college kid, filled with passion for Kane's work, and then listen to Julie Schwartz, filled with all the stuff that Julie Schwartz is filled with...I realize something. I was so wrong, Eric. It seems so obvious to me now. OF COURSE an idea can have children... and every time we believe in that part of ourselves that strives to be more than we are, to become those human beings of unsurpassed beauty, grace and power, with our humanity and dignity intact, we become your siblings, Eric. At those precious moments, we ALL become the children of Gil Kane. That was what I meant to say… and didn’t. So I say it now, with the hope that my thoughts will mean something to somebody.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:24 PM Paul S. Newman, in memory of...

June 7, 1999 Attention: Maggie Thompson Comic Buyer’s Guide Dear Maggie: I was saddened to learn of the recent passing of the legendary Paul S. Newman, a long time member of the Dramatists Guild and the Guinness Book record-holder for writing the most comic book stories of all time. I do not write to you in my professional capacity as the Associate Director of the Dramatists Guild (the professional association of playwrights, lyricists and composers who write for the stage), but as a CBG subscriber and life long comic book fan who had the good fortune to get to know Mr. Newman over the last few years. Despite his prolific output, Paul started out as a playwright and, right to the end, was working on a musical he was sure was bound for Broadway. I had the good fortune to advise him on business matters with regard to this and other theater-related queries, as well. In so doing, we developed a friendly relationship, as he seemed happy to deal with someone who shared his genuine affection for comics. As for me, I found his quirky phone calls increasingly endearing. We spoke before he attended last year's San Diego ComiCon International, and he was thrilled to have been invited. After the Con, I read with glee Mark Evanier's recollections of the Golden Age panels that Mr. Newman sat in on. Paul was the feisty firebrand, as he promised me he would be, raging against the debasement of the art-form by writers relying on stories of excessive violence and illustrators creating non-narrative pin-up art, neither able or willing to tell a coherent, accessible and morally defensible story. He mailed me a post card from the convention (featuring his beloved Lone Ranger and Tonto) just to say “greetings from San Diego”. He even went to the trouble to have the card signed by John Broome, Mark Evanier, Ramona Fradon, Nick Cardy, Jim Mooney, Murphy Anderson, Vin Sullivan, and John Severin. I am looking at it now, as I write this. I can also see, framed on my office wall, the color Xerox of a page from TUROK he sent me with the following inscription: "To Ralph – who, had he been with Turok & Andar, would have found a `loophole’ to get them out of the Lost Valley!" He was a gently wry, wily and funny man, still burning with energy and creativity well after many another of his generation had quit and moved to a condo in Florida. And so now he is gone, and I will miss the calls from that silly old fellow. And we are all a little poorer today than we were yesterday. And even though the temperature today is 97 degrees, as I stare out my office window at Times Square sweltering below, I somehow can’t stop feeling a chill…

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:28 PM The Graphic Novel as American Literature... beyond MAUS

Sal brought up an interesting notion, when he said he was searching for a graphic novel to include in his lit. class on the CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN NOVEL, beyond the obvious choice of the pulitzer-winning MAUS by Art Speigelman. I've given it some thought, and have constructed the following list, based on the following criteria: - "Contemporary" - no adaptations of old or classic works, so excluding the Opera adaptations of Kane and PC Russell, or KAFKA, etc. - "American" - therefore the brilliant output of the British writers like Neil Gaiman and Alan Moore are not included. But, since their work is amongst the best, i feel one must mention Mr. Moore's work on FROM HELL, V FOR VENDETTA, WATCHMEN, and SMALL KILLING; and Mr. Gaiman's MR. PUNCH, STARDUST, SIGNAL TO NOISE, VIOLENT CASES, and SANDMAN:ENDLESS NIGHTS. This also excludes excellent works by the Japanese and Italians (but they're Axis powers anyway, so who cares?), and the French (but they're French, so who cares?). - "Graphic" - i was looking for narratives that used words and images, not merely books with illustrations. This excluded Lynda Barry's THE GOOD TIMES ARE KILLING ME, etc. - "Novel" - I was looking primarily at fictional works that were not reprints or compendiums of ongoing comic books, but were either 1-shots or limited series originally published in the GN square-bound bookshelf format, or oversized GN format. This excludes trade paperbacks of all the SANDMAN books, MIRACLEMAN, CEREBUS, BONE, STRANGERS IN PARADISE, JIMMY CORRIGAN, LOVE & ROCKETS, SIN CITY, etc. I did include some non-fiction, however, to the extent it was autobiography, and not just reportage. And i didn't exclude superheroes, as they are as viable a genre of fiction as any. With that in mind, here's a list of stuff i've either read or heard about: * Ghost World / David Boring / Like a Velvet Glove Cast In Iron - Dan Clowes *Tale of One Bad Rat - Bryan Talbot *Brooklyn Dreams - JM DeMatteis *Jew of New York - Ben Katchor *Boulevard of Broken Dreams - Kim Dietch *Golum's Mighty Swing - J. Sturm *Why I Hate Saturn - Kyle Baker *Road to Perdition - Max Collins *Heavy Liquid - Paul Pope *Green Candles - Tom DeHaven *My Cancer Year - Harvey Pekar *A Contract with God - Will Eisner *Fax From Sarajevo / Yossel - Joe Kubert *Stuck Rubber Baby - Howard Cruse *Cages - Dave McKean *The Score - Gerard Jones *300 / Hard Boiled - Frank Miller The following books feature established superheroes: *Batman:The Dark Knight Returns / Elektra Lives Again - Frank Miller *The Death of Captain Marvel - Jim Starlin *Marvels - Kurt Busiek *Kingdom Come - Mark Waid *Iron Wolf: Fires of Revolution / Twilight - Howard Chaykin *Batman:War On Crime - Paul Dini *Golden Age - James Robinson -------------- Note: i'd think you'd also want to read Scott McCloud's excellent UNDERSTANDING COMICS, a very readable philosophical exegesis about how to comprehend visual storytelling.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:30 PM Silver Surfer thread...

The Ballad of the Silver Surfer: He was a prince of his people, betrothed to his beloved Shalla Bal... and then, the Planet-Eater, Galactus, arrived... Galactus consumes the life force of worlds to sustain his infinite existence. And he has come to Norrin Radd's world. And so, Norrin offers himself up to Galactus, to become his willing slave if he will only spare his world and his people. Galactus agrees. He encases the young prince in a silver shell that will protect him from the airless cold and heat of space, and gives him a board to surf the cosmic spaceways of the infinite, in search of worlds for Galactus to devour. He has given the prince the Power Cosmic, with which to defend himself. And so, Norrin Radd has become the Silver Surfer, herald of Galactus, searching for worlds devoid of intelligent lifeforms to feed the bottomless appetite of his lord. And then, when Galactus finally arrived on our own shores, the silver prince turned against him, fighting with the Fantastic Four to save our world. As punishment for his betrayal, he was imprisoned by the Earth's sky, never again allowed to ride the waves of space, never again to see his beloved shalla bal, but trapped on this rock with an insect species that despised him because they did not understand him. And yet... he protected us anyway, seeing in us our potential for greatness. Eventually, he freed himself from his prison on Earth and returned to the cosmos. Still, he has made the ultimate sacrifice, saving not only his world and so many others, even our own.... but, encased in inpenatrable silver and destined to ride the limitless reaches of space for all time, he is unable ever again to feel, to touch, to love his beloved Shalla Bal. He has surrendered his humanity to save us all. ---------------------------------- Silver Surfer's first appearance (and Galactus' as well) was FF #48, and the story continued in #49-#50, a trilogy that is considered one of the classics of Marvel's "silver age", and much sought after by collectors. It was, as you rightly pointed out, written by Stan Lee and drawn by Jack Kirby I don't recall them creating a subsequent Hockey Goalie herald of galactus... there was Frankie Raye who was FIRESTAR or something like that, and then i don't remember who else. but Kirby did write and draw some books for DC in the 70s (his "4th world" books), including a series called NEW GODS, which had a sort of an intergalactic BLACK SKIIER or something goofy like that. All those "th world" books were pretty goofy actually (MR. MIRACLE, NEW GODS, FOREVER PEOPLE, OMAC and his other DC work like KAMANDI and SUPERBOY), but still fun to look at today to see an unrestrained Kirby working without a net. Soupcan:" I loved his early work on The FF and no one can take away the fact that he and Stan Lee were groundbreaking creative comic book masters, but IMO his later years really detracted from his legend status." NR: Soupy, this is similar to Edgy's argument (which we know is ALREADY a bad sign of things to come) about how great players lose their status as great players cuz they played too long and had a bunch of crappy years at the end of their career. I didn't buy it then, i don't buy it know. Long before Stan Lee showed up, Kirby was a seminal force in the creation of the golden age of comics, creating Captain America (amongst many other characters), and inventing the romance genre in comics. His later work in the 60s with Stan Lee certainly was everything you described it as being, and the fact that in the 70s, he had to go to DC to get treated with enough respect to do new work at a living wage certainly detracts from MARVEL'S status, but not Kirby's. I'm sorry you didn't care for his work at DC, or maybe you like me were just predisposed to hate everything from DC in those days. But the artistic aspirations of his work in that period is unquestionable, even if not to your taste, and has ZERO impact on his place in the firmament of legendary fantasists, IMO. As to your other points: "John Buscema - He did the Surfer proud." he was a great craftsman. I loved his Spidey too. Did you ever see the movie CRIMSON TIDE where Denzel Washington is a sub commander and he's debating with a crewman the relative merits of Kirby vs. Buscema as artists of the Surfer? "George Perez" i don't remember him doing the Surfer, except maybe in an Avengers somewhere. He was great a big team books. Always good work. "Gil Kane " i ADORED Gil Kane's work. His work on Green Lantern made that the only DC book i'd read. His fantasy/barbarian stuff was right up there with Barry Smith. Later, his 70s stuff on WARLOCK made that my favorite character. Really underappreciated artist, who usually got screwed over by bad inkers. I became friends with his son when i was in law school. Then, I got to meet him at a Con. I went to his memorial service at DC, and wrote an obituary that was published in the Comics Buyers Guide. If people are at all interested, i'll post it here. As to Ditko: He was a master of the creepy and bizarre. His Dr. Strange and Spiderman were the definitive versions. Later, at DC, he too got bizarro with SHADE and some other unique works.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:30 PM "Seduction of the Innocent" thread...

>"I've been thinking for a long time that I should read Seduction of the Innocent. Have you, Norrin, or anyone else for that matter, read it?" hey, yancy... i've never read the entire thing, but i've read excerpts when i was in law school. I did a paper for an advanced First Amendment course on censorship in the comicbook industry. I went back to microfiche of ACLU documents from the late 1940s-early 50s when they were objecting to various State laws trying to censor comics and The Kefauver committee hearings of 1954. I also covered the rise of the comics code authority; the obsenity cases of the 60s-70s of dealing with R.Crumb's books; the "adult acess only" laws of the 80s; and the CBLDF's fights against oppressive State efforts to shut down bookstores. along the way i ran into many a comment by Wertham and quotes and selections from the book. whats interesting to note is that Wertham himself was a respected psychologist, and progressive social reformer who started out with good intentions in trying to deal with the troubled kids he worked with in his clinic in nyc. his problem, as Chuck notes, is his flawed logic and the methodology demonstrated in the book. His confusion of "correlation" with "cause and effect" discredited his work from the outset, but it became a useful tool by repressive politicians looking for a weapon to club what was the equivalent of the video game industry of the late 40s-early 50s. Mothers were in an uproar over the graphic nature of the EC/Horror comics of the period, and politician played to those concerns. It was a witch hunt. So, the industry imploded, started censoring itself, drove EC out of business (except for its last title... Mad Magazine), and became a wasteland till the early 60s, when Stan Lee reinvigorated the industry. Anyway, back to Wertham. He was not content with the rolebacks of the various legislative efforts to censor comics in the wake of the industry's willingness to censor itself. He continued his fruitless crusade, without even realizing he'd already won. His name became a label: a "werthamite" had become the term for a censor... usually a loud, crusading one who confused "correlation" with "cause and effect". They pop up all the time, from music-labeling, and video game ratings, and tv's "family hour", to Howard Stern and George Carlin on the radio. They don't bother with comics too much anymore, as nobody even reads them anymore. They've moved on to regulation of the internet. and its always in defense of the "children". Of course, requiring all media to transmit only those ideas that would not be inappropriate for children infantilizes our entire culture, and debases the national discourse more than a thumb in the eye, or a flash of ass.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:38 PM The Superheroes of Hollywood

In a Kurt Busiek interview, he said that there are five chief elements to a story that make it a "superhero story": 1. A superhuman ability (or several); 2. A nickname or code-name; 3. A costume; 4. A quest; 5. A milieu -- a catch-all for parts of the superhero environment such as a secret headquarters, an arch-villain, and other such staples. Busiek's rule is that if a story has three out of five of those elements, it can be fairly called a superhero story. My 10 favorite “comic-book superhero” theatrical feature film adaptations (in alphabetical order): 1. Barbarella 2. Batman I 3. Batman Lives 4. Blade 5. The Crow (my personal all-time fave) 6. Men In Black 7. The Rocketeer 8. Sin City 9. Spider-Man II 10. X-Men II Honorable mentions (+ some others I kinda liked even though they may have sucked): · Batman (`66) (campy nostalgia) · Batman II (the look + Michelle Fieffer) · Blade II (nearly, but not quite, as good as the first) · Fantastic 4 (good, not great) · Daredevil (flawed, but captured the Miller run on the book) · Hellboy (a mishmash but captures the book; Perlman is great) · Howard the Duck (don’t ask…) · Mystery Men (ditto) · Tank Girl (double ditto) · The Mask (great Carrey) · Spider-Man I (not as good as II) · Superman I, II (the first 1/3 of I is one of the best ever, the rest is silly crap; II is silly fun throughout) · X-Men I (good, not great) · TMNT I, III (II sucked, III is better, I is the best) Other fun movies based on comic-strips / pulps / animation · Conan the Barbarian (a personal fave) · Dick Tracy (the Beatty version; a great looking, dumb movie) · Flash Gordon (80) (campy fun with great QUEEN score) · Garfield (not terrible) · George of the Jungle (underrated, funny movie) · The Phantom (ditto) · Popeye (double ditto) · Mark of Zorro (The original Tyrone Power version) · Tarzan the Ape Man (Johnny Weismuller) Movie Serials (based on superhero comics / strips) · Adventures of Captain Marvel (best serial ever) · Superman (kirk Allyn gets animated) · Flash Gordon (Buster Crabbe) Movies with a comic book style or sensibility: · Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai · Big Trouble In Little China · Crouching Tiger (and almost all of the Hong Kong school of filmmaking) · Darkman · Escape from NY · Matrix I · Robocop · The Specials · Terminator I, II · Tron Movies ABOUT comics: · American Splendor · Chasing Amy (and every other Kevin Smith film) · Comic Book Confidential · Comic Book Villains · Crumb · Unbreakable Non-superhero comicbook adaptations: · Ghost World · Road To Perdition These comic-book feature adaptations are all pretty bad: · Barb Wire · Batman III, IV · Blade 3 · Captain America (91) · Casper · Catwoman · Conan the Destroyer · Constantine · Crow II · Elektra · Fantastic Four (1994) · From Hell · Hulk, The · Josie & the Pussycats · Judge Dredd · League of Extraordinary Gentlemen · Legend of the Lone Ranger · MIB 2 · Punisher, The (1989 & 2004) · Shadow, The · Sheena · Spawn · Steel · Supergirl · Superman III, IV · Swampthing (Note: these lists don’t include animated films, or TV shows, or movies originally made for TV / Cable / Video, or most foreign films)

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:40 PM Spider-Man I: review

SPIDER-MAN: Good, not great. The story and characterizations remain true to the source material while adding innovation and adapting it well to the big screen. As to the performances: -Tobey Mcguire is flawless. Captures Peter Parker's sensitive loser persona, and the sheer exhilaration and joy as he revels in his new powers. -Rosemary Harris is a great actress, with serious gravitas, who grounds the movie with her portrayal of Aunt May, in limited screen time. -Willem Dafoe is becoming a living cartoon version of himself but is entertainingly psychotic. -Jk simmons is PERFECT as irascible publisher, J Jonah Jameson. -Kirsten Dunst, however, was just slightly disappointing to me. Mary Jane's self-assuredness, covering her self-esteem problems, is never convincing. She acts with her hair. - Meanwhile, none of the other characters or performances really register. As for the script, its faithful, and the story revisions are quite good. Especially, the "organic" web shooters. The only problems for me were that Peter's life is not quite dismal ENOUGH, and the citizenry embraces Spidey WAY too quickly. Also, despite good acting, the long soliloquies by Peter and MJ about their love are examples of embarrassingly bad writing. My main problem is with the tone. I think of Lee/Ditko's Spider-man as an eerie, horrific character. This is more like the Romita Spider-Man... more like Superman then Batman. It lacks edge, lacks darkness. For example: in the comic, Spidey's first girlfriend is not MJ, but Gwen Stacy. It is SHE that the Goblin kidnaps and throws off a bridge. When Peter tries to save her by snaring her with his webbing, her neck snaps and she dies. He KILLS his own girlfriend in the attempt to save her. Now THAT’s edgy. THAT adds tragic depth to the character. Here, instead, while saving not only MJ but also a tram load of "innocent children", the Goblin is stalled in his effort to kill Spider-Man by a rowdy crowd of stereotypical NYers hurling debris at the Goblin, giving Spidey time to save everybody. UGH. How cornballishly "Superman" is that? In the comics, the populace is persuaded by megalomaniacal publisher Jameson that Spidey is a bad guy. It was an early 60s expression of the power of the media to manipulate the truth. Here, The Bugle is apparently ignored by the people, as they quickly recognize our hero's, um, heroism. NO EDGE. NO TRAGIC AMIBIGUITY. Just cutesy-poo shtick. As for the production's look... at first, I hated the bright, cartoony style, with the CGI FX of Spider-man's movements. But, on second viewing, they grew on me. For the kind of story it is, it’s an appropriate look. Danny Elfman's music is uncharacteristically forgettable. You have to wait till the end of the credits to hear the original "Spider-man" theme song, which still rocks. All in all, SPIDER-MAN is entertaining enough. I don't think it’s as good as the first 1/3 of the first SUPERMAN movie, nor does it have the production design and interesting dark tone of the first 2 BATMAN movies (despite those films' extreme turgidity). I'd say it’s on par with X-MEN, which I also rather enjoyed.

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:41 PM AMERICAN SPLENDOR review Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 17 2006 05:52 PM

PEKAR’S PALTRY PECADILLOS Or, Why isn’t AMERICAN SPLENDOR splendid? A friend of a friend of mine is doing press for the new movie AMERICAN SPLENDOR, based on the comic book and life of Harvey Pekar. It was produced by HBO, but after it became a big hit at the Sundance film festival, it earned a theatrical release by Fine Line. I’ve been reading about the project for a while now, and I was excited to get a chance to sneak into a press screening last night. I like the work of Harvey Pekar. Though I’m not a huge fan, I’ve read some issues of his comic, AMERICAN SPLENDOR, over the years. In the mid-70s, when underground “comix” had already carved out a niche in the popular culture, he shoveled out a trench of his own, taking neurotic self-absorption to whole new depths. Some love the banality of his observations about every day life, dubbing him a neo-realist… the social documentarian as whining, working-class shlub. Some just find him tedious. I think both observations are true. Similarly mixed opinions pertain to the work and persona of Pekar’s friend and contemporary, underground comix creator Robert Crumb. A few years ago, I saw the documentary CRUMB at the NY film festival. Then, I saw it again in its theatrical release. Then, again on cable, and again on video. And it moves me, and fascinates me, and repels me every time I see it. So, why isn’t the film version of AMERICAN SPLENDOR as good as CRUMB? CRUMB is about an artist whose work is primarily VISUAL and, even though static, it therefore can be better represented and appreciated on film than can the creative work of an artist like Pekar whose output is LITERARY. It’s hard to make cinematic the act of writing, though god knows the filmmakers try… by mixing in cartoons, narration, captions, and real vs. movie versions of Harvey and his circle of off-kilter associates. But, this mostly served to distract me from the narrative. Speaking of which…. The narrative of CRUMB is the exploration of the familial construct into which Robert Crumb was born and raised, allowing him to become a sympathetic figure who seems the only survivor of that dysfunctional nightmare. We see that his art, as disturbed and disturbing as it is, allows him to function and thrive in a way his two brothers and his mother have not. We see critics, friends, fans and foes debating the worth of his work, pulling no punches. And, ultimately, we see him decide to sell his sketchbooks and flee his homeland and move to France… perhaps because he can’t accept what America has become, or maybe because he can’t accept what HE has become… successful. One is reminded of the Groucho Marx quip: he didn’t want to be a member of any club that would have HIM as a member. CRUMB is sad, tragic, funny, perverse, disturbing and, most importantly, MOVING. We come away with an understanding of this damaged person’s NEED to make art, and that his art saved him. AMERICAN SPLENDOR covers much the same ground but, unfortunately, it makes no attempt till very late in the story to make us care about Harvey. We start with Harvey as a kid, trick-or-treating on the streets of Cleveland without a costume. The other kids are dressed as superheroes, but he’s just Harvey. When the lady answering her door seems perplexed by this heretical act of non-conformity, young Harvey just storms off empty-handed, frustrated by life’s bullshit. “Hey, lady”, he seems to be saying, “… I’m a kid. It’s Halloween. Give me candy and cut the crap.” But no... He failed to play the game, and so gets no JujuBees. Cut to Old Harvey, walking with the same defeated shlump. It’s a body language that seems to say “I know Life’s a losing game, but why do I keep getting dealt a kangaroo straight?” He works a dead-end file clerk job at the VA hospital, and his voice has turned into a wheezing screech, apparently from a lifetime of whining. His wife has left him. His old friend, Crumb, has become successful with his weird little comics, but Harvey has nothing but despair, a cat, a filthy apartment, a soul-deadening job, and an extensive record collection of obscure jazz music. It seems certain that if he doesn’t find something to live for, he might just simply fade away behind a file drawer. He tries to write his own comic about his life’s frustrations. And, when Crumb agrees to illustrate it, Harvey is reborn. Except, you don’t feel it. You see no real change in Harvey. No salvation. He’s as anti-social, unkempt, ill-tempered and unsuccessful as ever. The effort to humanize him with a relationship doesn’t really pay off because, obviously, the only woman who’d be interested in Harvey is as unappealing and neurotic as he is. Their marriage seems a depressing and loveless affair. His work, though now more famous due to his Letterman appearances, gives him no more joy. Then, when he is struck with cancer, his wife’s decision to document it for his comic as a means of “distancing” himself from the experience, and therefore surviving it, has the consequence of also distancing the AUDIENCE from Harvey’s cancer year. It’s only at the end, when they adopt the daughter of a colleague, that Harvey manages to elevate himself from the merely pathetic to profoundly sympathetic. But it’s too late. To be sure, Robert Crumb is every bit the misanthropic deviant that Harvey is. Yet in Crumb’s movie, you come to care. And in Harvey’s… you don’t. Is it just a matter of style? No, I don’t think so. Documentaries are not INHERENTLY more interesting with this subject matter than a “dramatization’. And the mixing of the genres in AMERICAN SPLENDOR is thematically interesting and valid, since that is the nature of Harvey’s work… mixing the personal with the public, the autobiographical with the invented narrative. While the structure is sometimes distracting, that wouldn’t have been an insurmountable problem if the central conflicts were compelling. But, unfortunately, I didn’t find them so. CRUMB, by exploring what made the artist into the person he was, took the focus off his neurotic antipathies and quirks. Despite the perverse and controversial nature of Crumb’s work, you don’t judge him for it because his creation of it was necessary for his very survival. Here, however, we have NO IDEA how Harvey got to be who he was. We just cut from that trick-or-treating kid to that schlemiel on line at the A & P, bypassing everything in his life that put him there. The focus, instead, is all about the minutiae of his everyday life (just like the comic), but without understanding why we should care. So, we don’t. Not to say the movie is BAD, or without any redeeming aspects. In fact, I did like it, more or less. Paul Giamatti is perfectly cast. The girl, Hope Davis, is good too. The quirky filmmaking structure is, as I said, distracting but fascinating in its own right, and thematically consistent with Pekar’s work. The scene where Giamatti/Pekar is standing in a white room, with its illustrated borders ever changing as he ruminates over his identity in the face of a growing number of “Harvey Pekars” appearing in the Cleveland phone book, gets the closest to capturing the literary qualities that have made AMERICAN SPLENDOR the cult phenomenon that it is. There is also the scene in a bakery, where we see a little into Harvey’s past through his chance meeting with a girl he knew in college. She envies his “accomplishments” as a writer; he envies her normalcy. It’s touching, like very little else in the film. Perhaps the bar has just been set too high by CRUMB for me to judge AMERICAN SPLENDOR fairly on its own terms. But, hey, that’s life... and life, as Pekar says, is pretty complex stuff.

TheOldMole Jan 17 2006 05:41 PM

Sharpie -- ROFL!!!

Vic Sage Jan 17 2006 05:41 PM X2 review

at slugger's request: So, I went to the opening night of X2, with my crew of aging nerds in tow… 7pm at the Ziegfeld. For those of you who are out-of-towners, the Ziegfeld is the Mecca of NYC moviegoing. Oh, sure... some of those new movie malls have cupholders, or whatever... but for sheer majesty, nothing beats the Zig. So, of course, the line is around the block, but I get there early and we end up with adequate seats (6th row, on the side). I prefer 8th row center, so peripheral vision is completely filled with the screen. And I've spent way too much time thinking about things like that. The curtain closes, and then re-opens as the trailers begin. “Why do they do that?”, asks my friend. “Showmanship, my boy… ole time showmanship”, I reply. The trailer for HULK gets folks excited, but I’m under-whelmed by a lead character that is totally created thru CGI. Am I the only one who thinks it ironic that the actor playing Bruce Banner is named Bana? X2 starts with a bang, as Alan Cummings’ NIGHTCRAWLER tries to assassinate the president. The movie sustains that level of excitement and interest for the most of its running time. As compared to X1, this is less the WOLVERINE show, and more about the collective of mutants, their powers, their relationships, and their role in our society. The original, making its parallels to Nazi repression of Jews during WWII, was more heavy-handed. Here, where “Iceman” comes out to his parents, the metaphor is more about being gay in a straight society. In either case, X-MEN is still about the ostracism and scapegoating of those amongst us who are “other”. Scott Summers/Cyclops role as the cuckold with the laser-beam eyes is getting pathetic. And the fate of his beloved Jean Grey is unsatisfying, as the film’s last third seems to lurch along as an undeveloped subplot (ie, the unidentified DARK PHOENIX force) takes over Jean and the movie. Still, overall, the look, sound, feel of the movie is superior to the first, and if you have Ian McKellan, you still have an edge over other examples of the genre. And Rebecca Romjin-Stamos is as hot as ever. Now, if only they could get Halle Berry and Famke Janssen into similarly revealing outfits, they’d really have something here. Maybe that’ll be the next sequel… THE XXX-WOMEN!

TheOldMole Jan 17 2006 05:46 PM

Vic -- I couldn't agree more on George of the Jungle. It made my Ten Best list that year.

Impulse2 Jan 17 2006 09:45 PM

wow. that's a lot of posts i skimmed. I didn't know Question fought Shiva. cool. I never really saw him in the comics, but he was fairly awesome on JLU. Cool guy. So okay, within-comic related question that may or may not be relavant to anyone, since it's DC. Wally West (the Flash), as we may know, recently had twins with his wife Linda. Increasingly, he's been worried about them, to the point where it's almost interfering with his crime-fighting. It's been brought up among my circle of friends that he may well give up his job as The Flash in order to better take care of his family. How would other people feel about this? Would it be the right thing for him to do? Personally, I don't think Wally could do anything to make me prouder of him than if he put his family first. It would be sad not to have a Flash, but one day Bart Allen will grow into the role. and in the meantime, Wally can focus on being a husband and a father.

Zvon Jan 18 2006 12:23 AM

wow. I dont peruse this board enuff. Im a huge fan of The Batman. The Frank Miller works rate among my favorites. For Impulse: (ill be surprized if you dont have this already)

Zvon Jan 18 2006 12:34 AM

I even started a sequel to the first Dark Knight Returns series, back in the 80s. It was just for fun, and I never completed it. Carrie Kelly was afew years older.

MFS62 Jan 18 2006 10:38 AM

Mole: This one's for you (well, us) Young Billy Baston by pronouncing the name of the wizard SHAZAM is transformed into the world's mightiest mortal, Captain Marvel. With the: wisdom of Solomon, the strength of Hercules, the stamina of Atlas, the power of Zeus, the courage of Achilles and the speed of Mercury he defends Fawcett City against the forces of darkness. Later

TheOldMole Jan 18 2006 01:23 PM

MFS...thanks...that will save me some sleepless nights. But it was "Batson."

Willets Point Jan 18 2006 01:33 PM

Don't forget the gay art representation of Batman and Robin:

MFS62 Jan 18 2006 01:47 PM

TheOldMole wrote: MFS...thanks...that will save me some sleepless nights. But it was "Batson." Interesting, since I cut and pasted that directly from a website. http://captain.custard.org/classic/shazam.html Later

TheOldMole Jan 18 2006 03:10 PM

The site was wrong -- and wrong throughout, because they continued to talk about the Baston family. Here's another site that [url=http://members.ozemail.com.au/~scunge/shazam/]gets Billy's family name right[/url], and also gives the Shazam code for Mary Marvel: Selena Grace Hippolyta Strength Ariadne Skill Zephyrus Speed Aurora Beauty Minerva Wisdom I don't know why Captain Marvel didn't need grace or beauty, although I guess since Billy was a boy newscaster (do you suppose they have a union?) he could get by with a face meant for radio. As for Captain Marvel Jr., Freddy Freeman, the crippled newsboy, got his powers by saying the name of his idol, Captain Marvel. When you think about it, this could cause a little trouble, because while "Shazam" rarely comes up in conversation, one can imagine the possible difficulty... "Hey kid, you got any stories in that paper of yours about the big red guy...what was his name again?"

MFS62 Jan 18 2006 03:17 PM

TheOldMole wrote: The site was wrong -- and wrong throughout, because they continued to talk about the Baston family. Here's another site that [url=http://members.ozemail.com.au/~scunge/shazam/]gets Billy's family name right[/url], and also gives the Shazam code for Mary Marvel: Selena Grace Hippolyta Strength Ariadne Skill Zephyrus Speed Aurora Beauty Minerva Wisdom I don't know why Captain Marvel didn't need grace or beauty, although I guess since Billy was a boy newscaster (do you suppose they have a union?) he could get by with a face meant for radio. As for Captain Marvel Jr., Freddy Freeman, the crippled newsboy, got his powers by saying the name of his idol, Captain Marvel. When you think about it, this could cause a little trouble, because while "Shazam" rarely comes up in conversation, one can imagine the possible difficulty... "Hey kid, you got any stories in that paper of yours about the big red guy...what was his name again?" Then there's a lot of inaccurate stuff on that site. I stopped reading when I found the SHAZAM definition I posted above. When I read that comic, Billy was the poor crippled newsboy. And at that time there was no Junior and there was no Mary. While they may have joined the crew after I stopped reading it, Billy was the one who said SHAZAM. There were none of those other characters to have said it. Later

Impulse2 Jan 18 2006 04:18 PM

Zvon wrote: wow. I dont peruse this board enuff. Im a huge fan of The Batman. The Frank Miller works rate among my favorites. For Impulse: (ill be surprized if you dont have this already) not only do i have the wallpaper (with the words "Even homicidal maniacs need love"), I own the comic it's a cover to ^^ Just got it for the holidays. but thanks!

TheOldMole Jan 18 2006 05:22 PM

I remember Billy as the boy newscaster for station WHIZ, and Freddy as the crippled newsboy.

MFS62 Jan 18 2006 07:19 PM

TheOldMole wrote: I remember Billy as the boy newscaster for station WHIZ, and Freddy as the crippled newsboy. Cue the banjo music Dueling memories? I dunno. I believe they made some changes to the comic after CD sued them (and before they put Captain Marvel out of business). Could be we were readers at different points in time. That's it! We're both right. Now, about those old Blackhawk comics.... Later

Zvon Jan 19 2006 12:28 AM

are you guys familair with the storyline in DK2 involving Captain Marvel? If not Ill actually scan some scenes. Well worth it.

TheOldMole Jan 19 2006 12:32 AM

I must have been reading Captain Marvel in the early 50s. Now let's see how many Blackhawks I can remember without looking. There were two Scandinavians -- Olaf was one of them...can't remember the other one's name. Andre the Frenchman. Chuck the American. Chop Chop, of course. And memory starts failing me there. I'll tell you what I can do, though -- and I don't mean to steal this thread away from Impulse with all this old geezer talk. Or used to be able to do. Name any story from Mad Comics -- not Mad Magazine -- and I should be able to describe at least one panel in detail.

TheOldMole Jan 19 2006 12:33 AM

Zvon - bring em on.

Zvon Jan 19 2006 12:47 AM

TheOldMole wrote: Zvon - bring em on. Ill dig em out.

Zvon Jan 19 2006 01:58 AM

more scenes from DK2 to come...........

MFS62 Jan 19 2006 06:35 AM

Mole - Hendrickson - the German and Stanislaus - the Pole. Zvon - that was great. Any more would be greatly appreciated. Wonder Woman doesn't look like she's aged that badly. She must be using Collagen injections in those lips. Later

Impulse2 Jan 19 2006 06:31 PM

holy crap, who DREW that? That barely looks like Diana at all. Though whatever Clark was babbling about, it's eery since i just read Infinite Crisis #4 today. Which, by the way, rocks my socks.

Edgy DC Jan 19 2006 06:38 PM

Don't leave me hangin'. We need more of that story. I'm afraid Lex is going to steal more cakes.

Zvon Jan 19 2006 06:59 PM

Edgy DC wrote: Don't leave me hangin'. We need more of that story. I'm afraid Lex is going to steal more cakes. I was just going to skip to the next Capt Marvel scene. You want me to continue exactly where I left off? Warning:Lex gets nasty with the aid of another super villain.

Zvon Jan 19 2006 07:04 PM

="Impulse2"]holy crap, who DREW that? Frank Miller does have his own perceptions and style.

Edgy DC Jan 19 2006 07:16 PM

I should say, I'm not particularly comfortable with Superguy and Captain Marvel existing in the same universe.

Zvon Jan 19 2006 07:25 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I should say, I'm not particularly comfortable with Superguy and Captain Marvel existing in the same universe. Miller also takes liberties with the comic universe, of this there is no doubt.

Zvon Jan 19 2006 07:49 PM

Ill pick it up where i left off:

Zvon Jan 19 2006 08:18 PM

Zvon Jan 19 2006 08:26 PM

Impulse2 Jan 19 2006 09:10 PM

duuude, who gave Kara those black eyes? Poor girl's been smacked around like crazy, to bruise a Supergirl. /making fun of art *still waits to see if anyone's reading IC*

Zvon Jan 19 2006 11:48 PM

Impulse2 wrote: duuude, who gave Kara those black eyes? Poor girl's been smacked around like crazy, to bruise a Supergirl. Lmao. Her eyes do look rather purpleish.... I thought Lara was Supergirl. I guess any babe from Kandor can be called a supergal, tho, once she gets past the red solar radiation that Lex Luthor flooded the bottle with.

Impulse2 Jan 22 2006 07:06 PM

I don't know if anyone here is interested in writing fanfiction, it really takes geekery to a new level. But my friend directed me to a DC fic forum where people write Ultimate DC titles, and it's pretty cool. I'm hoping to get involved as much as I have time for, so I figured i'd link. http://s9.invisionfree.com/UDCU/index.php?act=idx If anyone joins up, tell 'em Mockingbird sent you

Zvon Jan 22 2006 07:22 PM

I should continue with my Capt. Marvel panels from DK2 The meeting between Superman and Batman in DK2 was classic Miller, tho, as was their meeting in The Dark Knight Returns.

Zvon Jan 22 2006 08:44 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:14 PM

I have jumped around a bit just to get to the Capt Marvel storyline. These panels actually span all three DK2 comicbooks.

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:15 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:16 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:17 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:17 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:18 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:19 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:19 PM

Zvon Jan 22 2006 11:20 PM

unfortunately, I will only be able to keep these panels posted for a limited time. Ill probly pull em in a week or so.

MFS62 Jan 23 2006 08:28 AM

A week's fine. Thanks, Later

Zvon Jan 23 2006 10:19 PM

MFS62 wrote: A week's fine. Thanks, Later They were for you,MFS62. No comment on Miller taking such liberties in content and comicbook history? Cuz I myself was surprized he killed off Captain Marvel. It was a good, powerful scene tho. Worthy of the worlds mightiest mortal.

MFS62 Jan 23 2006 10:27 PM

When ya' gotta' go, ya' gotta' go. Better by an act of comic power than getting killed by a court decision in the suit brought by the DC Comics crowd. Later

Zvon Jan 23 2006 10:51 PM

MFS62 wrote: When ya' gotta' go, ya' gotta' go. Better by an act of comic power than getting killed by a court decision in the suit brought by the DC Comics crowd. Later lol. I was never a follower of the good captain. What he says there, about "getting it wrong"..... I assume that Billy Batson was just thought of as a typical secret identity in the Captain Marvel comics? Were they two seperate entities? I read what you said here about Billy being the one who said SHAZAM. So Captain Marvel never really said it? Im just curious.

MFS62 Jan 24 2006 09:13 AM

IIRC, the Captain said it when he wanted to be transformed back into his other identity. It wasn't just a costume change (like Superman). When the word was spoken, the speaker was struck with a thunderbolt that transformed him. If I didn't say it before, many thanks for the work you did. Later

Zvon Jan 24 2006 03:25 PM

MFS62 wrote: IIRC, the Captain said it when he wanted to be transformed back into his other identity. It wasn't just a costume change (like Superman). When the word was spoken, the speaker was struck with a thunderbolt that transformed him. If I didn't say it before, many thanks for the work you did. Later I didnt know that. Its ashame that Captain Marvel was somehow left behind when comics made the transition to mainstream movies. I thought it was pretty kool Miller tipping his hat to him, the way he did in DK2. He touched on many other heroes (& villains) as well in that one. The ones you see (Superman, Wonder Woman,Capt Marvel, Green Lantern, Supergirl) as well as The Atom, The Flash, Green Arrow, The Elongated Man, Plastic Man, Manhunter from Mars, Sage, Hawkman & Hawkwoman, Dick Grayson's Robin, and, of course, Batman himself. You did thank me, and it was np. I wanted you especially to see these panels. It was my pleasure.

TheOldMole Jan 24 2006 04:47 PM

] Its a shame that Captain Marvel was somehow left behind when comics made the transition to mainstream movies. This really shows how old I am, but I remember seeing the Captain Marvel Saturday morning serial in a movie theater. It may be my earliest movie memory.

MFS62 Jan 24 2006 05:49 PM

Zvon: IIRC,The Captain wasn't left behind. As I intimated by my comment, the Captain was put out of business when DC Comics sued Marvel Comics for copyright infringement (an impervious superhero) and WON! As a result, Marvel could continue with their other heroes, but the Captain had to be discontinued. And, the author missed Aquaman. Mole: Now you got me thinking. I believe the first movie I saw in the theater by myself was "Winchester 73" with (?) Jimmy Stewart. I don't remember seeing the Captain Marvel serial, but still have fond memories (and some videos) of: Flash Gordon (two or three different ones) Buck Rogers (probably made by Buster Crabbe while they were writing another Flash Gordon script) Don Winslow of the Navy Tim Tyler's Luck (Was the jungle cruiser the forerunner of the Hummer?) Gene Autry's Radio Ranch (those evil robots) Later

Yancy Street Gang Jan 24 2006 06:56 PM

I think you're remembering it wrong. Captain Marvel was a character owned by DC, (but previously by Charleston) and (I think) Marvel Comics sued DC to prevent them from publishing a title called "Captain Marvel." They were still allowed to have a character named Captain Marvel, but they had to title his mag "Shazam!" Marvel, to solidify their claim on the name, also created a character named Captain Marvel. (The Kree warrior.)

MFS62 Jan 24 2006 07:53 PM

Could be. Mole and I have already noticed thatwe have different recollections of the character. Its very possible that the lawsuits happened as you indicated. I really didn't care about lawsuits when I was a comic book reader. Later

Yancy Street Gang Jan 24 2006 08:01 PM

TheOldMole wrote: ] Its a shame that Captain Marvel was somehow left behind when comics made the transition to mainstream movies. This really shows how old I am, but I remember seeing the Captain Marvel Saturday morning serial in a movie theater. It may be my earliest movie memory. I also remember a Shazam and Isis Saturday morning live action show. And look what's supposedly being released in 2006.

MFS62 Jan 24 2006 08:11 PM

I'll be there. As for Isis, I had a huge crush on Joanna Cameron. Later

Willets Point Jan 24 2006 11:11 PM

I can see why.

Edgy DC Jan 24 2006 11:45 PM

That was one cheap show. The Shazam! show (clearly the same producers as Isis, as the shows ran consecutively and oft featured crossover appearances) had me somewhat buggered with bewilderment. Rather than defend a city, Billy Batson (a rather Latino lookin' Billy, if I recall correctly) looks for trouble the seventies way, wandering around the highways of the southwest in a Winnebago. It was hard for me to believe his secret identity could be concealed very well when he always wore a polo shirt of Shazam!-red with yellow trim, and had a paint job on the front of the Winnebago, featuring the same golden bolt of lightning across a red field that was Captain Marvel's breastplate. When trouble was afoot, his "mentor" would give him advice, like "Better go behind the Winnebago and call your friend." As if the baddies couldn't tell that, if shortly after the teenager skeddaddled, the sky went black, lightning struck behind the camper, and some all-American Don Drysdale type appeared in cape and tights that maybe the boy was the man behind the man. Also, Mentor, with his distinguished single English gentleman and neatly trimmed moustache, often wearing a bandanas tied just so about his neck, tooling around in the camper, must've struck somebody as presenting something of an exploitative mentor-mentee relationship. But I guess Billy was technically an adult. Lastly, the original all-American actor who played Cap'n disappeared during the run and was replaced with a sort or doughier washed-up type who looked more like Don Drysdale in his ABC days next to Howard Cosell. Not really superhero stuff at all. Let's see if I can find some photos... Yup! But it's an Anglefire site so I can't link to them to the images: http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/shazam/cast.html

MFS62 Jan 25 2006 11:45 AM

Now that I see the unis, I may have caught a few episodes of that show. BTW- Les Tremayne had a long and (sometimes) destinguished career in tv, radio and movies. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0871876/ Later

Vic Sage Jan 26 2006 01:11 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Feb 02 2006 04:45 PM

Captain Marvel was originally created by Fawcett, and the big Red Cheese overtook the son of krypton as most popular superhero in the early 40s. DC sued Fawcett, claiming Captain Marvel was a copyright infringement of "their character", Superman (i.e., they bought it for 1/2 a buck from its creators). DC and Fawcett slugged it out in the courts for over a decade. By the early 50s, superheroes had gone out of style and Fawcett just gave up and stopped publishing the Shazammer. They eventually sold the character to DC. Later, Marvel sued DC for use of the name. I'm not sure how that actually turned out, but Marvel has had its own Captain Marvel character since the late 1960s... Mar-Vell, the Kree Warrior, known as "Captain Marvel". And DC now uses "Shazam" for Captain Marvel! Later on, the great artist/writer Jim Starlin took the good captain in a new direction. Starlin's Mar-vell was stuck in the nega-zone and could only be summoned when professional kid sidekick Rick Jones slammed his nega-band bracelets together. Then, Rick was sent to the nega-zone, and Marvel was here to fight the cosmic fight. This was a "substantially similar" device to the Billy Batson/Shazam scenario (homage or theft?) but otherwise the characters were distinctly different. Starlin's Captain Marvel featured Warlock, Thanos, pip the troll and a host of cosmic characters that made for the best SF in comics of the 70s. I absolutely loved that stuff. Starlin's "Death of Captain Marvel" graphic novel (the first GN produced by Marvel) in `82 put the character to rest in a brilliant and touching way, and he is one of the rare examples of a dead character that has stayed dead. There have been other Captain Marvels since, but Mar-Vell died of cancer and has been RIP ever since. It is such an iconic story and part of the marvel universe that they haven't tried to bring him back, unlike virtually every other killed-off character has been over time. It's a tribute to Starlin's work in that GN that nobody wants to undo it.

MFS62 Jan 26 2006 01:32 PM

Thanks, Vic. That shows that we were all sorta' right about the lawsuit stuff at one point in time or another. Later