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Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Mets Guy in Michigan May 27 2014 12:00 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 27 2014 12:08 PM

OK, I grant you, I get all worked up any time Verducci thinks about mentioning the Mets. But I love how a guy who has enjoyed who knows how many endless Yankees games -- especially those marathon MFY-Boston games -- suddenly gets all worked up while watching the Mets. [url]http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20140527/pace-of-game/ His point about keeping batters in the box is valid. No one needs to adjust his batting gloves after every pitch. But a lot of this spirals into strange Verducci land, like no one wants to see umpires wearing headphones. And no mention of soft rain delays.

Ceetar May 27 2014 12:06 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

The answer is clearly no more of this "working counts stuff." Three pitches, three swings. Like the home run derby. If you don't put it in play it's a strike.

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 12:09 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

In fairness to Verducci, he's merely saying that he didn't enjoy watching THAT Met game. And, really, who can disagree? But he's ABSOLUTELY right about the topic and it's good to see someone with a louder voice than mine screaming it from a more visible pulpit than the CPF.

Ceetar May 27 2014 12:27 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

yeah, there's some validity in there. It boils down to a decision by MLB. either decide to enforce it or don't. I think there's some chicken/egg stuff here too. Pitchers start taking longer so batters have more time sitting and waiting. clearly holding a bat up is tiring, and you want your arms fresh. So step out. Now the pitcher's ready to go but the batter's stepped out, so the pitcher steps off again. (did he see my sign? is there a guy on second stealing them?) The batting gloves stuff is almost a mindless task to keep your mind blank. Espinosa: "I want to make sure I am focused and not rushed." Well sure, mindless routine helps keep you focused and keeps you from over-thinking "fastball outside? did he throw a curve last pitch? two curves in a row?" etc.. But the core of the issue Verducci is getting at is that MLB just doesn't care about the pacing. Neither does the NFL. I don't watch enough NBA to know but it does seem like the last 2 minutes of the game take 45 minutes. at least that's the exciting part of the game.. The pace of hockey is awesome of course. The one time out definitely helps with that.

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 12:28 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

From Verducci's piece: Everybody complains about the pace of play in today's game, what with all the strikeouts, pitching changes, mound conferences and so much time between pitches. But it occurred to me that the players and managers don't even realize how much they have slowed the game in such a short period of time. They don't know and they don't care. In their minds, and I've heard numerous players and managers quoted on this, they don't hear the complaints, and with money / salaries /attendance figures all looking good, they simply don't think there is a problem. Both Torre & Girardi, since the Yanx were for years seen as the worst offenders, explained it all away by saying that 'you have to let these guys do their jobs', i.e.. if they want to take 45 seconds between pitches you have to allow them 45 seconds between pitches. But this is total horse-shit. Brain surgeons can take as much time as they need, but there's a long history of players managing to hit and pitch quite nicely without allowing me time to fill-in four crossword answers between pitches. Some hi-light show I was watching last week even took the time to show a Joey Votto AB in total in which he never left the box or adjusted anything for a full six or seven pitch AB as if this was a never before seen phenomenon or part of a blooper reel. The whole AB (it finished as a walk) took less time than others use to throw two pitches.

Edgy MD May 27 2014 12:33 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

I like the idea of fining players certainly. It doesn't show the guy up publicly the way whistling him for taking more than 12 seconds to throw a pitch (for instance) would. And that sort of whistle would just create more delays as the pitcher whines and then the manager comes out to plead his case. They play the game as slow as they want, and then show up at the ballpark the next day with a fine waiting for them, and they'll police themselves, certainly.

Ceetar May 27 2014 12:35 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Some minor changes would help at times too. A pitcher that warms up to start an inning must pitch to at least one batter. You can't throw to first 5, 10+ times in a row just to allow the guy in the bullpen time to warm up. A coach and the catcher cannot visit the mound during the same AB, or at least the same pitch. What I don't understand is why pitchers still dally. It always seems like the evidence points to quick pace being to good results.

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 12:41 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

"But the core of the issue Verducci is getting at is that MLB just doesn't care about the pacing." -- They better start. I'd honestly be reluctant to introduce a newcomer to baseball today because of the amount of dead time. And with everyone agreeing that the sport's biggest problem being its poor national TV ratings, they might want to consider reasons as to why that might be. "Neither does the NFL." -- The NFL is even worse in some respects (and the college game even moreso) but it's a tough comparison here. Football is almost all dead time interspersed with seconds of action in between, but the 17 different angles of replay seems to keep the masses entertained between plays and, being a timed game, there's simply less variation of how long a game is going to take and helps keep each one (reasonably) close to fitting into it's pre-determined TV window. Besides, football games, being on usually during times when fans have dedicated themselves to watching the game (winter weekend afternoons), are an escape from life; baseball occurs as life is going on. "I don't watch enough NBA to know but it does seem like the last 2 minutes of the game take 45 minutes. at least that's the exciting part of the game." -- Again here, the college version is even worse, but basketball in general is a much shorter game so the extra time takes you beyond two hours not beyond three or four. "The pace of hockey is awesome of course. The one time out definitely helps with that. -- One TEAM timeout although multiple TV timeouts. You could tell the difference while watching Olympic hockey how much less chopped-up watching can be and once was.

Ceetar May 27 2014 12:52 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Frayed Knot wrote: "The pace of hockey is awesome of course. The one time out definitely helps with that. -- One TEAM timeout although multiple TV timeouts. You could tell the difference while watching Olympic hockey how much less chopped-up watching can be and once was. well yeah. But not quite that many TV timeouts. Although the 15 minute intermission is obviously quite a break. But coming from the other sports into the NHL it's certainly quite a different. "Woah, I've been watching non-stop action for 8 minutes?" Different animals of course. I agree about the newcomer stuff, but I'm not sure it's that dire either. I think the pace might be breeding more casual fans at the expense of diehards. Fans that'll watch 3-4 games a week maybe but will turn it off if it's slow or something better comes along. And if the team gets good and close to the playoffs? sure, they'll tune in. Maybe that's good enough? Lots of multi-tasking going on in the world, and it's easy enough to pay passing attention to baseball (or really anything) and then jump if it gets interesting.

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 12:56 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets Edited 3 time(s), most recently on May 27 2014 01:06 PM

Verducci's solutions: * Deputize the umpires to actually enforce the rules. MLB has to let them know they have their full backing when it comes to getting batters in the box and pitchers on the rubber. -- this rule already exists, just enforce it and stop the year after year implications that THIS TIME you're actually going to enforce it. • Keep the ball "live" as much as possible. If the pitcher has the ball and is ready to go, the umpire should not wait for the batter to dally. He should assume time is "in." Batters should not dictate when time is in. -- Same as above. It seems like the league either doesn't want to make the umpires the heavy here or that the umps themselves are reluctant to take on the role and the league bows to them for some reason. • Fine players for slow play and announce those infractions. -- OK sure, But getting them to stop ahead of time would be even better. Use whips and chains in the minor leagues (where there are fewer prima donnas and none of that union stuff to worry about) to keep them from ever developing those habits in the first place. • Here's one suggestion from Detroit pitcher Max Scherzer: "The pitcher cannot leave the dirt area of the mound between pitches except for after a foul ball." -- One trend I've noticed recently are pitchers who continue their pitching momentum and eventually wind up five to ten feet in front of the mound (not the rubber, the mound) to take the throw back from the catcher. At this point they have to walk back to where they started before they can even begin to think about throwing the next pitch, in some cases (maybe they don't want to walk on their landing area) a pitcher will do so via a great circle route and re-climb the mound from the 1st base side. There's no such thing as a catcher who can't throw guys (at least since Mackey Sasser's retirement) Stay on the fucking mound? • And another one from Scherzer: "The batter cannot call timeout after the pitcher comes set on the rubber." -- I'd hate to say 'Never' on this (esp since it would encourage pitchers to hold their set position forever in hopes of getting the batter all tensed up) but, yeah, umps should be less lenient with batter's requests. • Install a 12-second pitch clock to enforce the 12-second rule. -- Clock/no clock, I don't care. Just enforce the fucking thing • Give each team a limited number of timeouts to use over the course of the game. Baseball is the only sport that gives teams an unlimited number of timeouts. Catchers visiting the mound, pitching coaches stalling for time, infielders conferring with the pitcher . . . it's gotten way out of hand. Whatever the number -- say it's 10 timeouts -- you can divide them up any way you want. But no more stopping the game literally as many times as you want. -- Certainly mound visits should/could be capped. Maybe EACH visit after the first requires a pitching change rather than the current second one per inning. • Relief pitchers get two warmup pitches on the game mound, not eight. Imagine if when the backup quarterback comes into the game everybody stops and stands there to allow him to throw eight practice throws to his receivers on the field after he's been warming up on the sideline for the previous 15 minutes. Absurd, right? That's what baseball does. The average pitching change takes about three minutes (but that's not including the typical stalling for time that precedes it). We need to limit warmup pitches because a) the bullpen mounds today, unlike years ago, are virtually identical to the game mound, and b) the number of pitching changes continues to rise. Pitching changes have increased 27 percent in the past 20 years and 78 percent in the past 30 years. -- This seems so easy to do and so pointless not to. • Streamline the replay system. Get rid of the charade of managers walking slowly on the field, buddying up to the umpire and waiting for a signal from the dugout on whether to challenge or not. (By the way, this farce is not included in the "official time" MLB keeps on replay challenges.) If the manager leaves the dugout, a challenge declaration is assumed. -- Gee, who possibly could have foreseen the promises of 'but it'll only take ___ seconds per review' not working out as promised? • Also, get rid of those 20th century wired headphones -- you know, the ones that make Joe West look as if he's digging him some Glenn Campbell. Nobody wants to see the crew chief take that long slow walk from second base to behind home plate to put on a headset. Join the 21st century: go wireless, including a wireless microphone on the crew chief to actually explain the call. -- Sure, whatever. But I'll believe the promises that ANY review system will get more streamlined as they use and improve on it as soon as I see the NFL's three decade old system begin to get more efficient and streamlined. * Create an "illegal defense" rule. Shifts work. They are killing hitters who pull groundballs. It is harder to get a single today than at any time in the history of the game. Just as basketball defines illegal defenses and football defines illegal formations, baseball could diminish the effectiveness of offense-stifling shifts by limiting them, such as requiring two infielders on each side of second base. -- I don't see this as a problem. Better, or simply riskier, defenses aren't making the games longer. You don't like shifts? ... fine, then hit away from them!

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 12:58 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Ceetar wrote: I agree about the newcomer stuff, but I'm not sure it's that dire either. Turning off newcomers IS ALWAYS DIRE, no matter what your product or business.

Ceetar May 27 2014 01:06 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

I just realized there was a second page to Verducci's article. That's a different rant. It IS the first year of replay, so let's see what refinements they make. Review is already available at the umpires discretion after the 6th, why not make it that way the whole game? That would eliminate the whole "come out and chat while my bench coach looks at a replay" bit and would revert the game back to how it was last year. Managers can come out and yell about whatever plays they want to yell about. If the umpires feel like they missed a call or are unsure, they can do a replay. Someone hits a button when a manager comes out, and the review guys have a head start on getting the result if needed. Throw managers out that argue too much. If you don't have an answer after 90 seconds of review, call stands. I like the 'batter can't leave the box' bit. Let the pitcher throw if he's ready. If the pitcher can get strikes by pitching quickly, he will. If the batter realizes he's going to give up strikes by not being prepared, he'll stay in/near the box.

Benjamin Grimm May 27 2014 01:08 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

And while fans will crank up their interest when their team contends, as Ceetar suggests, there's still the issue of watching games that your team isn't involved in. Fans have become much less likely to watch a playoff or World Series game if their favorite team isn't playing. (That stupid "do your duty Judy" campaign a few years ago was MLB's way of acknowledging this.) I think that if World Series games ended by 10:30 Eastern Time, a greater number of casual fans would be inclined to watch. But why start watching a game if you know you don't care enough to stay up until 11:30, and you have to get up for work in the morning? I haven't watched a World Series game that didn't involve the Mets since 1993! (That's right; in the last 21 years I've only watched five World Series games.) I may be a minority here on this forum, but I think a lot more of the general public has fallen into this pattern.

Ashie62 May 27 2014 02:09 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

If its' not a Mets game I have zero interest in watching... would rather watch storage wars...

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 02:26 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And while fans will crank up their interest when their team contends, as Ceetar suggests, there's still the issue of watching games that your team isn't involved in. ... I may be a minority here on this forum, but I think a lot more of the general public has fallen into this pattern. Baseball has always been a game where the local interest trumps the national. The time required to watch, follow, or attend a game now has probably just added to the gap.

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 02:35 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Another angle I thought of to add to Verducci's list: - I haven't gone so nerdy to the point where I've been timing this (although i may start) so I don't KNOW that this is the case, but it seems to me that the between-innings gap isn't as strictly enforced as it should be and may be another thing that's been getting worse over time. The gaps--another job that's supposed to be enforced by the umps--are supposed to be 2:05 for local games, 2:25 for GotWs (which I assume includes FOX Saturday & ESPN Sunday) and 2:55 for post-season games, allowing the stations to fill their commercial obligations and still have a few seconds of set-up time before the first pitch of the following half-inning. In a perfect world I'd like to see those times reduced but I understand the world we're in here. But even with those gaps strictly laid out, I increasingly seem to find the broadcast coming back to the air only to find the pitcher still warming up, between-innings music still playing, the batter still in the circle and the first pitch still a half-minute or more in the future.

Mets Guy in Michigan May 27 2014 02:40 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Frayed Knot wrote: Another angle I thought of to add to Verducci's list: - I haven't gone so nerdy to the point where I've been timing this (although i may start) so I don't KNOW that this is the case, but it seems to me that the between-innings gap isn't as strictly enforced as it should be and may be another thing that's been getting worse over time. The gaps--another job that's supposed to be enforced by the umps--are supposed to be 2:05 for local games, 2:25 for GotWs (which I assume includes FOX Saturday & ESPN Sunday) and 2:55 for post-season games, allowing the stations to fill their commercial obligations and still have a few seconds of set-up time before the first pitch of the following half-inning. In a perfect world I'd like to see those times reduced but I understand the world we're in here. But even with those gaps strictly laid out, I increasingly seem to find the broadcast coming back to the air only to find the pitcher still warming up, between-innings music still playing, the batter still in the circle and the first pitch still a half-minute or more in the future. The Tigers have started to fill the gaps between innings with assorted on and off-field fan contests and activities -- like I see in the minors. The team has always had some between-inning things, but it is spilling on the field more and more. They added car races recently -- think a Motown version of the sausages and presidents. That all has to add to the time.

Ceetar May 27 2014 02:47 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

no way is the between innings stuff enforced. Pitchers take their time getting back out there, and then they have to throw 8 pitches, and they're rarely in a hurry to do so. Nevermind if a pitcher is on base..

Frayed Knot May 27 2014 03:33 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

metsguyinmichigan wrote: The Tigers have started to fill the gaps between innings with assorted on and off-field fan contests and activities -- like I see in the minors. The team has always had some between-inning things, but it is spilling on the field more and more. They added car races recently -- think a Motown version of the sausages and presidents. That all has to add to the time. Teams can have cow milking or midget tossing contests between innings for all I care, I just want whatever they do to be wrapped up and the pitcher on the mound with his warmups over by the time the 2:05 proscribed limit is up. And if pitchers start taking too long to get out there that they don't have their eight throws in then they should have their warmups truncated.

Frayed Knot May 28 2014 03:55 PM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

A Baseball Prospectus article (pre-dating the Verducci one) tackles the problems in trying to enforce the existing rules about slow play from both batters & pitchers. The Verducci article seems to be getting some traction at least. It could just be temporary, but now that the topic is out hopefully enough others will feel comfortable bringing it up so this doesn't just kept swept under the rug with vague promises of 'we're working on it'.

Frayed Knot May 29 2014 06:50 AM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

12 of the 15 games from Wednesday were over 3 hours with 7 of those 12 clocking in at 3:20 or greater (all games regulation except for one which went 10 innings) despite only one of the 30 teams reaching double-digits in runs. Disgrace GotD: Texas 1 - Minnesota 0 3 hours, 12 Minutes for a total of 1 Run, 14 Hits, 4 BBs, 15 Ks Honorable Mentions: Toronto 3 - Tampa 2 (a walk-off win so only 51 outs were recorded) -- 3:23 Cincy 3 - Dodgers 2 (3:08) 13 hits, 3 walks total

MFS62 May 29 2014 07:10 AM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Didn't a batter stepping out after every pitch to re-adjust the strap on the batting gloves start with the MFYs. (Mattingly?) I don't recall seeing any other players doing it before that. Later

Edgy MD May 29 2014 08:05 AM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Absolutely, Mattingly fetishised his drawn-out routine into every plate appearance. And he has spawned two generations of imitators. Just ask "Mattingly Beast of the Month" Spencer Sarel from Brighton, Michigan: As I spoke with Spencer we talked about what it takes to become a good hitter and he mentioned two keys. One was to take as many swings as possible and to simply have repetition after repetition at the plate or practice tee. The other key he mentioned was routine. He said that it was very important that a hitter keeps a good rhythm and routine. Spencer told me that every time he has an at bat he does the same routine. When Spencer gets up to bat he undoes his batting gloves then re-tightens them, then he adjusts his uniform so he is comfortable, then he takes a few swings with a doughnut on. Then when it comes time to get into the batters box he wipes away all the other cleat marks, and finally he wipes down the barrel of his bat. This may all seem like a lengthy process, but it is something that Spencer thinks is very important in maintaining routine.

Benjamin Grimm May 29 2014 08:14 AM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

I can accept that a player wants to have his little settling in routine as he steps up to the plate. But if he's doing that dance between pitches as well, then too bad for him. He should have to learn a shorter routine. Maybe after the pitch, touch the bat to the ground, take a deep breath, and then resume the stance.

Frayed Knot May 29 2014 09:51 AM Re: Verducci gets bored watching the Mets

Didn't a batter stepping out after every pitch to re-adjust the strap on the batting gloves start with the MFYs. (Mattingly?) I don't recall seeing any other players doing it before that. Mike Hargrove--Cleveland, Texas--got tagged with the handle 'Human Rain Delay' for all of his between-pitch tics and routines. I'm sure there were others who did so previously. The problem is that this has become similar to what 300 pounders are to the NFL: what was once a one-per-team novelty has turned so commonplace that you only notice the ones who aren't doing it. I can accept that a player wants to have his little settling in routine as he steps up to the plate. But if he's doing that dance between pitches as well, then too bad for him. He should have to learn a shorter routine. Maybe after the pitch, touch the bat to the ground, take a deep breath, and then resume the stance. Yeah, it's starts as a routine for many players but winds up being a crutch. Danny Espinosa, the Nats infielder cited in the Verducci piece as being one of the worst offenders and of defending his antics as necessary to his preparation, might need someone to point out to him that this stuff might not be as indispensable as he thinks judging by his .183/.213/.325 track record over the 2013-14 span.