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Five Years of Perspective

Edgy DC
Jan 23 2006 02:52 PM

In honor of Boy Named Seo's argument about approaching trade judgments with proper perspective, I've spent literallly seconds digging up the Mets transactions from 2000, each one over five years old. Please rate each deal twice, if you will, on the five-pont (love, like, neutral, dislike, hate) scale.

The first rating should be your feeling, as best as you can honestly remember it, at the time. The second should be your feelings about each deal now, which, I imageine, there should be some consensus about in most cases.

I've included the "transactions which included letting people go in free agency, which, in most cases, are inconsequential, and will include a lot of indifferent responses, I guess. I am curious to see if there was anybody at the time who was furious that Kurt Abbott was allowed to walk as a free agent.

Try and seperate the deal as it stood, I guess. You can like trading Jesse Orosco for Joe McEwing, I guess, without liking McEwing getting a two-year deal when he became a free agent. Just like you can like trading for Benson or Hampton or Piazza in a contract year with the trade's benefit of knocking the Mets to the front of the line to sign them as free agents, without necessarily liking the circumstances of the Mets actually signing or not signing those guys.

January 3, 2000
New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla.

January 14, 2000
New York Mets traded Masato Yoshii to the Colorado Rockies for Bobby Jones and Lariel Gonzalez.

January 21, 2000
New York Mets traded Luis Lopez to the Milwaukee Brewers for Bill Pulsipher.

January 26, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kurt Abbott of the Colorado Rockies.

February 3, 2000
St. Louis Cardinals signed Shawon Dunston of the New York Mets as a free agent.

February 4, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Dennis Springer of the Florida Marlins.

Colorado Rockies signed Billy Taylor of the New York Mets as a free agent.

February 7, 2000
New York Mets claimed David Lamb on waivers from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

February 8, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Rich Rodriguez.

February 22, 2000
New York Mets traded to the for Mark Johnson.

March 13, 2000
Detroit Tigers claimed Shane Halter of the New York Mets on waivers.

March 17, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez.

March 18, 2000
New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing.

May 13, 2000
New York Mets released Rickey Henderson.

June 2, 2000
New York Mets traded Bill Pulsipher to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Lenny Harris.

June 5, 2000
New York Mets selected Jeff Duncan in seventh round of free agent draft.

June 8, 2000
New York Mets released Jon Nunnally.

July 28, 2000
New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick.

New York Mets traded Paul Wilson and Jason Tyner to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Bubba Trammell and Rick White.

August 30, 2000
New York Mets traded Nelson Cruz to the Oakland Athletics for Jorge Velandia.

October 12, 2000
New York Mets claimed Desi Relaford on waivers from the San Diego Padres.

November 3, 2000
Florida Marlins signed Ryan McGuire of the New York Mets as a free agent.

November 8, 2000
Anaheim Angels signed David Lamb of the New York Mets as a free agent.

December 5, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Brett Hinchliffe.

December 9, 2000
Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent.

December 10, 2000
Pittsburgh Pirates signed Derek Bell of the New York Mets as a free agent.

December 11, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics.

New York Mets signed free agent Tsuyoshi Shinjo.

New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall.

New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays.

December 13, 2000
Atlanta Braves signed Kurt Abbott of the New York Mets as a free agent.

December 20, 2000
Baltimore Orioles signed Mike Bordick of the New York Mets as a free agent.

December 21, 2000
Matt Franco granted free agency.

December 26, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Pete Walker.

seawolf17
Jan 23 2006 02:59 PM

Seems a bit tedious to see what our feelings were -- and are -- about the loss of Ryan McGuire and David Lamb, eh?

Edgy DC
Jan 23 2006 03:02 PM

Yup. On the other hand, a quick "3" or "neutral" or "don't care" is easier than editing out all the below-the-radar transactions.

Easier for me, anyhow.

Nymr83
Jan 23 2006 03:08 PM

1 is hate, 5 is love... my feelings at the time as best i can remember them are in parenthesis.
i deleted the ones that i felt neutral (3) about at the time and neutral about now since it was the vast majority and i felt no need to repeat them all.


January 3, 2000
New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla. 5 (5)

February 7, 2000
New York Mets claimed David Lamb on waivers from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. 2 (4)

February 8, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Rich Rodriguez. 1 (3)

March 17, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez. 3 (5)

March 18, 2000
New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing. 4 (5)

May 13, 2000
New York Mets released Rickey Henderson. 5 (5)


July 28, 2000
New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick. 1 (5) this was my only huge disparity of the year, i thought Bordick would help but he stunk and Mora went on to have a decent career

New York Mets traded Paul Wilson and Jason Tyner to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Bubba Trammell and Rick White. 3 (5) i liked this deal at the time but then Trammell wasn't given the chance i thought he deserved

December 9, 2000
Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent. 4 (3) considering how he pitched in COL it was good to let him go and i didnt think it was a mistake for that kind of money, if we were reviewing the 1999 transactions the trade to get him would be a 2 (5) imo

December 11, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics. 3 (4)

New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall. 2 (1)

New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays. 5 (4)

December 20, 2000
Baltimore Orioles signed Mike Bordick of the New York Mets as a free agent. 3 (3), i deleted most of my neutrals but this one i felt like mentioning that i was ok with him going elsewhere though i would have been equally ok with resigning him as i was already very down on st-rey and in favor of any alternatives

MFS62
Jan 23 2006 03:08 PM

I had a feeling that things would go downhill once we lost Shane Halter.

Later

seawolf17
Jan 23 2006 03:24 PM
Re: Five Years of Perspective

January 3, 2000
New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla. loved it, love it

January 14, 2000
New York Mets traded Masato Yoshii to the Colorado Rockies for Bobby Jones and Lariel Gonzalez. liked it, like it

January 21, 2000
New York Mets traded Luis Lopez to the Milwaukee Brewers for Bill Pulsipher. liked it, now neutral

February 8, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Rich Rodriguez. neutral then, hate it now

March 17, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez. neutral than, love it now

March 18, 2000
New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing. disliked it then, love it now -- I was upset that they didn't give Jesse O one more chance. I thought it would have been great to have him back, even though he didn't pitch much. I remember being surprised that we got an everyday-type player for a guy who pitched 1/3 of an inning every couple of days, though.

May 13, 2000
New York Mets released Rickey Henderson. liked it then, like it now

June 2, 2000
New York Mets traded Bill Pulsipher to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Lenny Harris. neutral then, like it now

June 5, 2000
New York Mets selected Jeff Duncan in seventh round of free agent draft. I remember being furious that they didn't draft this high school pitcher out of Oakland named Willis that I really liked. He went to the Cubs eight picks later.

July 28, 2000
New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick. disliked it at first, then liked it when he homered, and hate it now -- I liked Mora a lot. I thought they gave up too much for a rental.

New York Mets traded Paul Wilson and Jason Tyner to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Bubba Trammell and Rick White. liked it then, still like it now, but only because my wife and I still joke about the game when Seaver kept calling him "Rick Wheat".

August 30, 2000
New York Mets traded Nelson Cruz to the Oakland Athletics for Jorge Velandia. indifferent then, like it now -- Velandia is one of my favorite Met scrubeenies of recent years

December 9, 2000
Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent. I was pissed then, but I wouldn't have given him that kind of money, so I liked it; I'm not sure today. I think I would have liked to have seen him pitch the last couple of years here.

December 10, 2000
Pittsburgh Pirates signed Derek Bell of the New York Mets as a free agent. liked it then, like it now

December 11, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics.
New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays.
New York Mets signed free agent Tsuyoshi Shinjo. I liked all three of these then, and I guess except for Appier, I still like them. Appier's a dislike.

New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall. Hated this at the time, because I thought Wall was a complete waste, and I still thought Bubba was a 30-100 guy. Indifferent now.

December 13, 2000
Atlanta Braves signed Kurt Abbott of the New York Mets as a free agent.
December 20, 2000
Baltimore Orioles signed Mike Bordick of the New York Mets as a free agent. Seeya, losers.

Yancy Street Gang
Jan 23 2006 03:28 PM

January 3, 2000
New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla.

This one was inevitable. I liked it at the time, still like it now. (It did cost the Mets a lot of money, which means that maybe it wasn't such a no-brainer for them, but I didn't, and don't, care too much about such things.)


January 14, 2000
New York Mets traded Masato Yoshii to the Colorado Rockies for Bobby Jones and Lariel Gonzalez.

Didn't like it at the time. I seem to remember thinking that the other Bobby Jones was awful, and that Masato Yoshii was halfway decent. Neither one ever did much after the trade, so in retrospect I'll proclaim myself neutral.

January 21, 2000
New York Mets traded Luis Lopez to the Milwaukee Brewers for Bill Pulsipher.

I think I liked it; it gave us another chance at getting something out of Generation K. Lopez was no big deal, and as it turns out, neither was Pulsipher. Again, I'm retroactively neutral.

January 26, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kurt Abbott of the Colorado Rockies.

I don't recall how I felt at the time. I probably would have voted liked, since any potential alternative to Rey Ordonez would have been welcome. Given that Rey would get hurt that season, and they needed innings from shortstops, I'll stick with like, even though Abbott didn't amount to a whole lot.

February 3, 2000
St. Louis Cardinals signed Shawon Dunston of the New York Mets as a free agent.

I was sorry to see him go. He was a good role player on the 1999 team. Five years later, does his departure matter a whole lot? Not really.


February 4, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Dennis Springer of the Florida Marlins.

No opinion then, none now. I don't object to a team trying to get something positive out of a veteran's last gasps as long as they're willing to cut bait if it doesn't work out. It didn't, and they did, so I'm cool with it.

Colorado Rockies signed Billy Taylor of the New York Mets as a free agent.

And good riddance. I hated giving up Isringhausen for this guy, and by the time he departed I had given up any hope of getting anything out of him.

February 7, 2000
New York Mets claimed David Lamb on waivers from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays.

Eh.

February 8, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Rich Rodriguez.

No opinion at the time, I'm sure. With hindsight, it wasn't a good move.


February 22, 2000
New York Mets traded to the for Mark Johnson.

Huh? It looks like I have some data repair to do.


March 13, 2000
Detroit Tigers claimed Shane Halter of the New York Mets on waivers.

No biggie.

March 17, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez.

I doubt I noticed it at the time. Despite the infamous baserunning blunder in the World Series, Timo was an important spark in a pennant-winning season. I do like this signing.

March 18, 2000
New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing.

Disliked it at the time. I would have loved seeing Jesse pitch for the Mets again. McEwing was a good guy, though not as good a player as he may have looked after his 1999. I wonder if Tony LaRussa still has Joe's shoes? I think the Mets would have gotten more out of Jesse Orosco over the next several years, so I'll stick with dislike. Although if I ever find out that McEwing's mentoring had a measurable impact on David Wright, I might reconsider.

May 13, 2000
New York Mets released Rickey Henderson.

Liked it then, like it now.

June 2, 2000
New York Mets traded Bill Pulsipher to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Lenny Harris.

I think I liked it then; Pulsipher wasn't really getting it done. I guess I still like it now. As with Timo, Lenny was a contributor in a pennant-winning season. Although I never gave a damn about his pinch-hitting record.

June 5, 2000
New York Mets selected Jeff Duncan in seventh round of free agent draft.

Didn't notice it then. Means nothing now.

June 8, 2000
New York Mets released Jon Nunnally.

Didn't care then. Means nothing now.

July 28, 2000
New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick.

Disliked it then, though I tried to look on the positive side. I didn't think Bordick had much of a future here, since Alex Rodriguez would be joining the Mets in 2001. Hated to see Mora go, although his defense did get frustrating. Given how well Mora played after the trade, and how quickly Bordick cooled off, I'll look back on this trade with hate.

New York Mets traded Paul Wilson and Jason Tyner to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Bubba Trammell and Rick White.

Disliked it then, perhaps more for sentimental reasons. This really was the last gasp of Generation K. Didn't care much about Jason Tyner; I never thought he'd be a successful big leaguer. Wilson did okay afterwards, but so did White. Trammell was not much either way. I'll say I'm neutral now.

August 30, 2000
New York Mets traded Nelson Cruz to the Oakland Athletics for Jorge Velandia.

Nelson who? I don't remember this one happening. Velandia was a nothing, and I suppose Cruz was less. No opinion.

October 12, 2000
New York Mets claimed Desi Relaford on waivers from the San Diego Padres.

I was too involved in the Mets postseason to care about transactions for next year, so I didn't care. Desi was a nice player, though, so I'll say that I like it now.

November 3, 2000
Florida Marlins signed Ryan McGuire of the New York Mets as a free agent.

Didn't care then and don't now.


November 8, 2000
Anaheim Angels signed David Lamb of the New York Mets as a free agent.

Didn't care then, and don't now.

December 5, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Brett Hinchliffe.

Didn't notice it then. It didn't turn out well, but not much damage was done. I'll label this a dislike, but it hardly matters.


December 9, 2000
Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent.

Hated losing Hampton then. I was really hoping he'd stick around. I still think it would have been good to keep him; he would have done better had he stayed at Shea and maybe 2001 would have turned out a little better. From 2006, I'll say dislike.

December 10, 2000
Pittsburgh Pirates signed Derek Bell of the New York Mets as a free agent.

I loved Derek Bell in April of that year. By December we knew he was done. Good (and obvious) move not resigning him. The Pirates fans surely look back on this one with hate.

December 11, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics.

Liked it then, I guess. Still like it now. Appier's one year with the Mets was okay. Traded for Mo Vaughn in a deal that didn't help either team.

New York Mets signed free agent Tsuyoshi Shinjo.

Liked it then, still like it now.

New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall.

I don't think I liked this one. I think I thought Bubba had more in him than Donne. Now, as with others, it doesn't really matter.

New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays.

Didn't really like this one. I thought Trachsel was a journeyman loser. He's actually been quite a bit better than that. Now I'll say that I like that they signed him.


December 13, 2000
Atlanta Braves signed Kurt Abbott of the New York Mets as a free agent.

Didn't care.

December 20, 2000
Baltimore Orioles signed Mike Bordick of the New York Mets as a free agent.

Did we know yet that Rodriguez wasn't coming? If so, and it meant Ordonez would return, I probably didn't like this. I guess I still don't. I would rather have had Bordick as the 2001 shortstop than Ordonez.

December 21, 2000
Matt Franco granted free agency.

Nice player. Sorry to see him leave. He probably would have been an asset in 2001, too, so I'll stick with dislike.

December 26, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Pete Walker.

Don't remember how I felt then, don't much care about it now.



That was fun strolling down memory lane like this.

metirish
Jan 23 2006 04:02 PM

January 3, 2000
New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla. (5) - 5

January 14, 2000
New York Mets traded Masato Yoshii to the Colorado Rockies for Bobby Jones and Lariel Gonzalez. - ( 3) - 4


January 21, 2000
New York Mets traded Luis Lopez to the Milwaukee Brewers for Bill Pulsipher. - (4) - 3

January 26, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kurt Abbott of the Colorado Rockies. ( 0 ), don't even know if I knew who he was

February 3, 2000
St. Louis Cardinals signed Shawon Dunston of the New York Mets as a free agent. ( 1 ) 1

February 4, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Dennis Springer of the Florida Marlins. (2 ) 2

Colorado Rockies signed Billy Taylor of the New York Mets as a free agent. (3) didn't care

February 7, 2000
New York Mets claimed David Lamb on waivers from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. ( who ?)

February 8, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Rich Rodriguez. ( never knew him ) 2

February 22, 2000
New York Mets traded to the for Mark Johnson. (2)

March 13, 2000
Detroit Tigers claimed Shane Halter of the New York Mets on waivers. ( didn't care) - still don't

March 17, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez. ..no memory of this...5 love it now

March 18, 2000
New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing. ...(2) - 5

May 13, 2000
New York Mets released Rickey Henderson. ( 5)

June 2, 2000
New York Mets traded Bill Pulsipher to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Lenny Harris. ( 3 ) -

June 5, 2000
New York Mets selected Jeff Duncan in seventh round of free agent draft. ( no feelings) - 3

June 8, 2000
New York Mets released Jon Nunnally. ...who?

July 28, 2000
New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick. ...(2) - 1

New York Mets traded Paul Wilson and Jason Tyner to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Bubba Trammell and Rick White. ..(3 ) - 3

August 30, 2000
New York Mets traded Nelson Cruz to the Oakland Athletics for Jorge Velandia. - no memory of this

October 12, 2000
New York Mets claimed Desi Relaford on waivers from the San Diego Padres. ...( 0 ) - 4

November 3, 2000
Florida Marlins signed Ryan McGuire of the New York Mets as a free agent. ( ? )

November 8, 2000
Anaheim Angels signed David Lamb of the New York Mets as a free agent. ( ? )

December 5, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Brett Hinchliffe. ( ? )

December 9, 2000
Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent. ( 2 ) 5

December 10, 2000
Pittsburgh Pirates signed Derek Bell of the New York Mets as a free agent. ( 3) 4

December 11, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics. (2) 2

New York Mets signed free agent Tsuyoshi Shinjo. ...( 3 ) 3

New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall. ...( 3 ) 3

New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays. ...( 3 ) 5

December 13, 2000
Atlanta Braves signed Kurt Abbott of the New York Mets as a free agent. ( 3 ) 3

December 20, 2000
Baltimore Orioles signed Mike Bordick of the New York Mets as a free agent. ( 3 ) 4

December 21, 2000
Matt Franco granted free agency... didn't care I guess

December 26, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Pete Walker. ( dindn't care.

Frayed Knot
Jan 23 2006 04:32 PM

]I remember being furious that they didn't draft this high school pitcher out of Oakland named Willis that I really liked. He went to the Cubs eight picks later.


You're kidding right?

seawolf17
Jan 23 2006 04:44 PM

Nah. I'm a big-time scout.

Of course I'm kidding! I looked up the draft, and I was going to pick some random no-name guy who never made it above single-A, but Dontrelle Willis jumped out at me.

Edgy DC
Jan 24 2006 09:33 AM

January 3, 2001
Houston Astros signed Jim Mann of the New York Mets as a free agent.

January 9, 2001
New York Mets signed free agent Darren Bragg.

January 11, 2001
Texas Rangers signed Pat Mahomes of the New York Mets as a free agent.

New York Mets traded Javier Ochoa to the Cleveland Indians for Tom Martin.

ScarletKnight41
Jan 24 2006 09:40 AM

Once you get to July, you'll come up with trades that still press my buttons.

smg58
Jan 24 2006 10:53 AM

January 3, 2000
New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla. What's not to like?

January 14, 2000
New York Mets traded Masato Yoshii to the Colorado Rockies for Bobby Jones and Lariel Gonzalez. Ultimately not very significant either way. 3 then, 3 now.

March 17, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez. Didn't notice it at the the time, but it did help us get to the Series. 3 then, 5 now.

March 18, 2000
New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing. 5 then, 2 now. It seemed like highway robbery at the time, but take out two months in 01 and McEwing was Ordonez without the glove. Plus, you just knew that Melvin Mora was going to go at some point.

May 13, 2000
New York Mets released Rickey Henderson. Same with Bonilla; what's not to like?

June 2, 2000
New York Mets traded Bill Pulsipher to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Lenny Harris. 3 then, 4 now.

June 5, 2000
New York Mets selected Jeff Duncan in seventh round of free agent draft. I didn't pay any attention to this, but obviously passing on the D-Train looks brutal in hindsight.

July 28, 2000
New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick. They needed more defensive stability at short than Mora was providing, but I can't help wondering if the O's would have taken McEwing instead. Still, they might not make the Series without this deal, so I can't hate it. 4 then, 3 now.

New York Mets traded Paul Wilson and Jason Tyner to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Bubba Trammell and Rick White. 2 then, 4 now. For some reason, I thought Tyner was going to be a good player.

December 9, 2000
Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent. 2 then, 5 now. Losing Hampton set the team back, but keeping him at that price would have ultimately been worse.

December 10, 2000
Pittsburgh Pirates signed Derek Bell of the New York Mets as a free agent. See my comments on Henderson and Bonilla.

December 11, 2000
New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics. 2 then, 2 now.
New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays. 2 then, 4 now.
New York Mets signed free agent Tsuyoshi Shinjo. 3 then, 3 now.
Appier did give the Mets a decent year, but he was badly overpaid and made Mo Vaughn possible. I didn't think Trachsel would be an upgrade over Bobby Jones, but I was wrong. Shinjo was a useful reserve, but nothing more than that.


New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall. 2 then, 1 now. It was around here when the Mets started overstocking the team with righty relievers (generally overpaid for), a bad trend that Minaya seems intent on continuing.

Edgy DC
Jan 24 2006 11:04 AM

Trammell for Wall was an amazing situation in that (seemingly) nobody liked it and everybody was right. It's not that Wall was awful, he was merely bad (a 4.85 ERA doesn't light up any rooms, but Jorge Julio sure could've used that number last year), but he was bad, not unhealthy, and pretty damn redundant. (He was not only the fourth righthander out of the pen, he was the third beginning with W.)

Fourth righthanders out of the pen are what scrapheaps are for.

MFS62
Jan 24 2006 03:08 PM

2001 perspective:
Mets Defense of NL Pennant Offensive

July 11, 2001 - The defending National League Champion New York Mets have won just 38 of their first 89 ball games in 2001. Is this really the same team that roughed up the San Francisco Giants and the St. Louis Cardinals last year on their way to the World Series? Not exactly the same team that they finished the year 2000 with, Mike Hampton was lost to free agency. Kevin Appier was signed to replace Hampton and Steve Trachsel was chosen by General Manager Steve Phillips over incumbent Bobby Jones. There are also a few new role players like Tsuyoshi Shinjo and Desi Relaford. Yet the nucleus of the team remained intact. So, what happened to the Mets?

Coming into the season, the Mets offense relied on the two-headed monster of Mike Piazza and Edgardo Alfonzo. For the past two seasons, these two have hit well over .300 with plenty of power. Many pre-season prognosticators lamented over the lack of a strong supporting cast to these two, nobody expected that Piazza and especially Alfonzo to struggle like they have. In 2000, Alfonzo hit .324/.425/.542 (AVG/OBP/SLG), with 25 HRs and 94 RBIs. This season, Alfonzo has dropped precipitously to .233/.306/.420. Mike Piazza hit .324/.398/.614 in 2000, and has fallen to .276/.350/.541. Since his first season in 1992 (just 62 ABs), Piazza has never hit below .300 in a season.

In addition to the big two, the Mets next three best hitters in 2000 have also under-produced. Benny Agbayani, Todd Zeile, and Jay Payton have all under-achieved. Last year, these three combined for 54 home runs and 201 RBIs. This season, they have amassed just 13 dingers and 70 RBIs. Agbayani and Payton have both been injured (as has Alfonzo), and Zeile's power numbers have not been up to his career standards. To top it off, Rey Ordonez is back at shortstop for the Mets. The three-time Gold Glove Award winner has not improved with the stick, in fact he has digressed. His numbers are .220/.270/.283! A .270 OBP combined with a .283 SLG is just horrific. Even if he did not make a single error, and made every conceivable play in the field (which he has not), there is no way he has helped this ball club.

The only bright lights in the Mets' lineup have been Robin Ventura, who has bounced back from a sub par 2000, Desi Relaford, Joe McEwing, and Tsuyoshi Shinjo. This is not a group that scares many opposing pitchers. Top prospect OF Alex Escobar had two brief tours with the Mets, and it was obvious that he is not ready to help the club.

Fundamentally, this group has been terrible. There was a stretch of 20 or 30 games when the Mets made a base running blunder or a mental miscue in the field in every game. It was ugly. The Mets are a slow team, underachieving at the plate, the last thing they need is poor fundamentals. Yet the Mets have not been able to hit a fly ball with a man on third, or execute in the field.

The pitching has been up and down. Or more precisely, down and up. Early in the season, Kevin Appier and Glendon Rusch struggled mightily, Steve Trachsel pitched so poorly that he had to be sent to the minors, and Al Leiter injured his elbow. The Mets were left with Rick Reed, and four days of hitter feed. In the last month, the starters have rebounded. Kevin Appier has lowered his ERA from a season high of 5.62 on May 19, to 3.86 after his tremendous performance against the Yankees on July 7 in which he had a no-hitter into the sixth and allowed just four hits and no runs in eight innings. Glendon Rusch has also pitched better in the last month. He has stopped throwing the sinker as it just was not an effective pitch for him. Rusch has pitched effectively in each of his last five starts. Rick Reed has been the anchor of the staff all season. With any other offense behind him, he would likely have 10 wins by now. Al Leiter has followed his good year/bad year trend that he has had for the last few seasons. Perhaps he threw too many pitches in several outings last season, and that may have set him up for injury and relative ineffectiveness in 2001. Steve Trachsel sucks. Case closed.

The bullpen has also been spotty. Armando Benitez has been perfect in save situations yet has given up several home runs that cost the Mets a ball game in non-save situations. Franco, Wendell, and Cook have been overworked as usual, and they have been hit more than usual. Rick White, and Donne Wall have been on and off the DL, and Wall has been terrible when healthy. Many Met fans lament the trade that sent Bubba Trammell to the Padres for Wall.

Steve Phillips to the Rescue?

So where do we go from here? The Mets are 13 games behind the first place Philadelphia Phillies and 12 games behind the second place Atlanta Braves. Are the Mets out of contention? Possibly… but not mathematically. Do the Mets still have a core team that can contend in 2002? Yes they do, as illustrated above, all of the Mets key offensive performers in 2000, are having off years in 2001. Of the five mentioned above (Piazza, Alfonzo, Agbayani, Payton, and Zeile), only two of them are over the age of 30 (Piazza and Zeile). The pitching staff is old but still above average.

What kind of deal should Steve Phillips make? Should he grab an established big hitter and hope the Mets can get back in contention a la the Miracle Mets of 1969 or the "Ya Gotta Believe" Mets of 1973? Or perhaps the Mets should clean house and rebuild a shaky franchise with a below average farm system?

The Mets need to establish some goals to improve the team as follows:

1. Get younger. The Mets are one of the oldest teams in major league baseball and it shows. They are also one of the slowest.
2. Get aggressive offensively. Bench Rey Ordonez, let Desi Relaford and Joe McEwing battle it out at shortstop and play guys who can hit it deep in the outfield.
3. Get rid of dead wood. Phillips must weed out older players that are falling off and stop signing older free agents to big contracts.
4. Stop the clubhouse obsession. The day following the World Series in 2000, Steve Phillips was not busy planning how to re-sign Mike Hampton or attract Alex Rodriguez. No, his number one priority was signing Lenny Harris to a two-year $2.2 millon deal! It has been said that the Mets have a great clubhouse, what a wonderful bunch of players. You would think some of that feel-good stuff would translate to an occasional clutch hit. Nope, and ironically the only clutch hitter this season has been a guy who does not understand a word Lenny Harris says (Shinjo).

The Mets need to accomplish these goals and still field a competitive team. Believe it or not, young players are often better than older players. The key is to figure out which young players will develop. Easier said than done, but it is better to gamble on a young player whose prime is ahead of him than over-30 guys who will never repeat their best season.

The list of deadwood is pretty long, and unfortunately most of those players have little value. Rey Ordonez tops the list, but his $4 million annual salary stands in the way of even the most optimistic suitor. Todd Zeile has some value as a third baseman, he just does not hit enough as a first baseman with a $6 million annual price tag. There are quite a few teams out there in need of a third baseman, the Mets would be wise to accept a B-grade prospect and pick up most of Zeile's salary. Even if they do not get a first baseman in the transaction, the Mets would probably score as many runs with Mark Johnson at first base… or heaven forbid Mike Piazza. Robin Ventura obviously has more value than Zeile. The Mets should be cautious about moving him though because he is a very good all-around player who may be worth what he is paid. The Mets should settle for nothing less than a top young pitcher for Ventura, if they choose to trade him.

The Mets also have four guys who can play a decent center field in the majors in Payton, Escobar, Shinjo, and Perez. Although none of these players makes any money, these players have value and could bring a player back with better long-term value. The pitching staff is a tough nut. Reed, Leiter, and Appier are all older pitchers with big salaries. They are also winning pitchers that the Mets could ill-afford to lose if they hope to contend in 2002. The truth is the Mets need starting pitching. Trachsel is not the answer at number five. Dicky Gonzalez has limited upside. None of the other pitching prospects are close to making the big club. The Mets should send one or more of their ancient relievers out of town in return for some young starting pitching.

The Manager

Everybody says that Bobby Valentine is a great manager in terms of his baseball ability. If so, why is the team so poorly prepared? Desi Relaford forgets to cover first base on a bunt. Timo Perez bypasses the cutoff man. Hit and runs are missed and gunned down. The Mets are not working out over the All-Star break. They do not need to work on anything? Valentine is also a master of using his entire 25 man roster… in every game. Not only that, he uses his entire roster differently every game. A guy will bat second one day, seventh the next, and then leadoff. How is the player supposed to know his role if it is constantly changing? Why doesn't Valentine put in a good offensive lineup everyday? It seems like there are three punch and judy shortstop types in the lineup every day. Obviously a big part of the problem has been injuries. The Mets have been riddled with injury since day one. Now, they are starting to get healthy.

It is time to give the team a consistent lineup, a lineup that has a chance to score. Here is one Bobby:

SS McEwing / Relaford
LF Agbayani
2B Alfonzo
C Piazza
3B Ventura
1B Johnson / Zeile
CF Payton
RF Shinjo / Perez

The 2000 New York Mets raised our expectations, the club raised the ticket prices, but the product on the field has failed to deliver. The future is not all bad, the Mets have a core of good baseball players. If they can get a little younger, and faster, and smarter, and … if they could get a clutch hit once in a while, then the future may be bright indeed. They did go to the World Series last season. Now it is time to start playing like champions.
******************************************************************
How things have changed.
Later

Elster88
Jan 24 2006 03:26 PM

]SS McEwing / Relaford
LF Agbayani
2B Alfonzo
C Piazza
3B Ventura
1B Johnson / Zeile
CF Payton
RF Shinjo / Perez


In retrospect, this lineup with the 2001 versions of all these players wasn't going to score much, either.

KC
Jan 24 2006 06:03 PM

MFS, is that something you posted somewhere and saved, or was it
published somewhere?

GYC
Jan 24 2006 06:13 PM

I don't remember much of it because I was only 10, and didn't follow it religiously like I do now, but the one I do remember was Mike Hampton. I hated it when he left because I really liked him... Now, I love it. Our compensation? David Wright. The most perfect human being on the face of the earth.

MFS62
Jan 24 2006 06:17 PM

KC wrote:
MFS, is that something you posted somewhere and saved, or was it
published somewhere?


I saw it on another board (NYFO) a few weeks ago and waited for someone here to spot it on its original source and provide a link. I didn't post it here at the time because there was no reference as to author or source.

But when I saw this thread looking back five years, I felt this was an appropriate spot for it.

Did I do something bad?

Later

KC
Jan 24 2006 06:29 PM

Just asking, no biggie. (it was just a hint that if a source was available it
should probably be included)

Nymr83
Jan 24 2006 10:22 PM

whats scary is that that guy was dead on (except for the line "traschel isn't the answer at number 5")

Edgy DC
Jan 24 2006 10:35 PM

No Steve Phillips fan here, but signing Lenny Harris first did not mean it was the first priority. It meant it was easily doable. I never knew why that was something that was fixated on.

His rightness was helped by the persepective of so much of the season gone. What he or she didn't see was the amazing amount of ground that the Mets were yet to make up.

Johnny Dickshot
Jan 24 2006 11:03 PM

You gotta love an analysis complaining that a player digressed offensively: I guess that's when they square to bunt then pull the bat back for a butcher-boy.

Ms. Met?: these players have value and could bring a player back with better long-term value. Tough to disagree with that strategy: Let's trade our players for better players!

The season is long and hard. That 01 team, as massively flawed and dead and buried as it looked, damn near made the damn playoffs.

Elster88
Jan 25 2006 01:43 AM

GYC wrote:
I don't remember much of it because I was only 10, and didn't follow it religiously like I do now, but the one I do remember was Mike Hampton. I hated it when he left because I really liked him... Now, I love it. Our compensation? David Wright. The most perfect human being on the face of the earth.


You are younger than I thought.

Elster88
Jan 25 2006 01:44 AM

Edgy DC wrote:
No Steve Phillips fan here, but signing Lenny Harris first did not mean it was the first priority. It meant it was easily doable. I never knew why that was something that was fixated on.


Don't you know that signing an established bench player to come off the bench severly blocks the younger players in the farm system? You friggin Kool-Aid drinker. (SC = 100)

Bret Sabermetric
Jan 25 2006 05:36 AM

Signing veterans to play small, significant roles on teams makes sense--for contending teams. For teams out of contention, it makes more sense to acquire and promote younger, cheaper players so some of them develop, at a low cost, while your team builds up its long-term talent base.

A clueless strategy would be to acquire various role-playing veterans for a non-contending team, swap out your prospects to get them, obtain no prospects from other organizations, complain a lot how you are spending a shitload of money and you're puzzled at the lack of results, pretend the team is better than it is, and keep spending more money on more role-playing mediocre veterans to improve the team. Do this until your fan base deteriorates, or you get very, very lucky.

*62
Jan 25 2006 07:45 AM

At least Timo sucks any way you slice it up; either by actually watching the games, following the boxscores, or according to basbell voodoo (also known as sabermetrics).

Rockin' Doc
Jan 25 2006 01:00 PM

Welcome, *62.

RealityChuck
Jan 26 2006 09:23 AM
Re: Five Years of Perspective

Rating 1-5 5=great I left off those I had no opinion about.

New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla. 5, 5
New York Mets traded Masato Yoshii to the Colorado Rockies for Bobby Jones and Lariel Gonzalez. 4 (only because it gave us two Bobby Joneses), 3New York Mets traded Luis Lopez to the Milwaukee Brewers for Bill Pulsipher. 0
New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez. 0,3
New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing. 0,2
New York Mets released Rickey Henderson. 5,5
New York Mets traded Bill Pulsipher to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Lenny Harris. 0,3
New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick. 5,5 Gave up a lot, but the team needed a shortstop, and without it, they'd probably no have made the post season
Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent. 1,2 Hated losing our ace, but he didn't do all that much after we lost him.
New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics. 3,2
New York Mets signed free agent Tsuyoshi Shinjo. 0,2
New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall. 0,1 Big mistake.
New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays. 0,5 One of the team's better moves.
Baltimore Orioles signed Mike Bordick of the New York Mets as a free agent. 2,2
Matt Franco granted free agency. 2,1

Vic Sage
Jan 26 2006 12:37 PM

5=love
Then/Now

January 3, 2000 / New York Mets released Bobby Bonilla. 5/5

January 14, 2000/ New York Mets traded Masato Yoshii to the Colorado Rockies for Bobby Jones and Lariel Gonzalez. 3/3

January 21, 2000 / New York Mets traded Luis Lopez to the Milwaukee Brewers for Bill Pulsipher. 4/3

January 26, 2000 / New York Mets signed free agent Kurt Abbott of the Colorado Rockies. 3/3

February 3, 2000 / St. Louis Cardinals signed Shawon Dunston of the New York Mets as a free agent. 2/2

February 4, 2000 / New York Mets signed free agent Dennis Springer of the Florida Marlins. 2/2

Colorado Rockies signed Billy Taylor of the New York Mets as a free agent. 4/4

February 7, 2000 / New York Mets claimed David Lamb on waivers from the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. 3/3

February 8, 2000 / New York Mets signed free agent Rich Rodriguez. 3/1

February 22, 2000 / New York Mets traded to the for Mark Johnson.

March 13, 2000 / Detroit Tigers claimed Shane Halter of the New York Mets on waivers. 2/2

March 17, 2000 / New York Mets signed free agent Timo Perez. 3/5

March 18, 2000 / New York Mets traded Jesse Orosco to the St. Louis Cardinals for Joe McEwing. 4/4

May 13, 2000 / New York Mets released Rickey Henderson. 2/4

June 2, 2000 / New York Mets traded Bill Pulsipher to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Lenny Harris. 4/4

June 5, 2000 / New York Mets selected Jeff Duncan in seventh round of free agent draft 3/3.

June 8, 2000 / New York Mets released Jon Nunnally. 2/2

July 28, 2000 / New York Mets traded Melvin Mora, Mike Kinkade, Pat Gorman and Lesli Brea to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Bordick. 4/1

New York Mets traded Paul Wilson and Jason Tyner to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Bubba Trammell and Rick White. 4/2

August 30, 2000 / New York Mets traded Nelson Cruz to the Oakland Athletics for Jorge Velandia. 3/3

October 12, 2000 / New York Mets claimed Desi Relaford on waivers from the San Diego Padres. 2/4

November 3, 2000 / Florida Marlins signed Ryan McGuire of the New York Mets as a free agent. 3/3

November 8, 2000 / Anaheim Angels signed David Lamb of the New York Mets as a free agent. 3/3

December 5, 2000 / New York Mets signed free agent Brett Hinchliffe. 3/3

December 9, 2000 / Colorado Rockies signed Mike Hampton of the New York Mets as a free agent. 2/5

December 10, 2000 / Pittsburgh Pirates signed Derek Bell of the New York Mets as a free agent. 2/3

December 11, 2000 / New York Mets signed free agent Kevin Appier of the Oakland Athletics. 4/2

New York Mets signed free agent Tsuyoshi Shinjo. 4/3

New York Mets traded Bubba Trammell to the San Diego Padres for Donne Wall. 1/1

New York Mets signed free agent Steve Trachsel of the Toronto Blue Jays. 2/5

December 13, 2000 Atlanta Braves signed Kurt Abbott of the New York Mets as a free agent. 3/3

December 20, 2000 / Baltimore Orioles signed Mike Bordick of the New York Mets as a free agent. 4/4

December 21, 2000 / Matt Franco granted free agency. 2/3

December 26, 2000 / New York Mets signed free agent Pete Walker. 3/3