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Is this Piazza's year?

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 24 2014 09:17 AM

New Hall of Fame ballot: The new candidates on the ballot include Cy Young Award winners like Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez and John Smoltz, along with sluggers Carlos Delgado and Gary Sheffield, two-time batting champion Nomar Garciaparra and lock-down closer Troy Percival. Other first-time candidates include: Rich Aurilia, Aaron Boone, Tony Clark, Jermaine Dye, Darin Erstad, Cliff Floyd, Brian Giles, Tom Gordon, Eddie Guardado and Jason Schmidt. The 17 candidates returning to the BBWAA ballot (with their 2014 election percentages) are: Craig Biggio (74.8%), Mike Piazza (62.2%), Jeff Bagwell (54.3%), Tim Raines (46.1%), Roger Clemens (35.4%), Barry Bonds (34.7%), Lee Smith (29.9%), Curt Schilling (29.2%), Edgar Martinez (25.2%), Alan Trammell (20.8%), Mike Mussina (20.3%), Jeff Kent (15.2%), Fred McGriff (11.7%), Mark McGwire (11.0%), Larry Walker (10.2%), Don Mattingly (8.2%) and Sammy Sosa (7.2%). A number of Metly connections on this year's ballot: Piazza, of course. But also Pedro, Delgado, Sheffield, Tony Clark, Cliff Floyd and Jeff Kent. At first blush, I'd vote: 1) Piazza 2) Pedro 3) Biggio 4) Raines 5) Johnson 6) Bagwell 7) Trammell 8) Lee Smith 9) Smoltz

Ceetar Nov 24 2014 09:34 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I don't particularly care anymore. He's a Hall of Famer whether or not some hack "writers" vote for him. I was all set to go up to Cooperstown and have a really great weekend for his induction too, but not sure it's in the cards should it happen this year.

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 24 2014 09:56 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Biggio was something like a vote or two shy, so I'd be stunned if he didn't get in. Randy Johnson is probably a lock, unless he gets dogged by the guys who don't vote for anyone from the era. I would not be surprised if Pedro was a first-ballot guy. Piazza, at 62 percent, is headed in the right direction and getting closer. The writers rarely, if ever, put four guys in, though.

Ceetar Nov 24 2014 10:05 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

These are the gimme's for my IBWAA Hall vote. (Biggio and Piazza are already in) Jeff Bagwell Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Edgar Martinez Curt Schilling Sammy Sosa John Smoltz Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez I have to look closer at Sheffield, Nomar, and Delgado.

Frayed Knot Nov 24 2014 10:24 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

[u:1ei3y63d]Returnees w/previous year's pct[/u:1ei3y63d]: Craig Biggio -- 74.80% Mike Piazza -- 62.20% Jeff Bagwell -- 54.30% Tim Raines -- 46.10% Roger Clemens -- 35.40% Barry Bonds -- 34.70% Lee Smith -- 29.90% Curt Schilling -- 29.20% Edgar Martinez -- 25.20% Alan Trammell -- 20.80% Mike Mussina -- 20.30% Jeff Kent -- 15.20% Fred McGriff -- 11.70% Mark McGwire -- 11% Larry Walker -- 10.20% Don Mattingly -- 8.20% Sammy Sosa -- 7.20% [u:1ei3y63d]NEW TO BALLOT[/u:1ei3y63d]: Rich Aurilia Aaron Boone Tony Clark Carlos Delgado Jermaine Dye Darin Erstad Cliff Floyd Nomar Garciaparra Brian Giles Tom Gordon Eddie Guardado Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez Troy Percival Jason Schmidt Gary Sheffield John Smoltz

Edgy MD Nov 24 2014 10:30 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Stacked.

Vic Sage Nov 24 2014 10:51 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Of the 1st timers, i would vote for the following 4: Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez Gary Sheffield John Smoltz Of the holdovers i would vote for the following 6: Barry Bonds -- 34.70% Roger Clemens -- 35.40% Craig Biggio -- 74.80% Mike Piazza -- 62.20% Jeff Bagwell -- 54.30% Tim Raines -- 46.10% I would also vote for these guys if there were more spots on the ballot (or if i left off Bonds and Clemens): Edgar Martinez -- 25.20% Alan Trammell -- 20.80% Borderline: Curt Schilling -- 29.20% Jeff Kent -- 15.20% Mark McGwire -- 11% Larry Walker -- 10.20% Close, but no cigar: Lee Smith -- 29.90% Mike Mussina -- 20.30% Fred McGriff -- 11.70% Don Mattingly -- 8.20% Sammy Sosa -- 7.20% Carlos Delgado Nomar Garciaparra Troy Percival 1 & done: Rich Aurilia Aaron Boone Tony Clark Jermaine Dye Darin Erstad Cliff Floyd Brian Giles Tom Gordon Eddie Guardado Jason Schmidt

Edgy MD Nov 24 2014 10:59 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez John Smoltz Craig Biggio Mike Piazza Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Edgar Martinez Alan Trammell Curt Schilling

Vic Sage Nov 24 2014 11:13 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

no to Sheff on character grounds? or because you just don't think he was as good as Schilling?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 24 2014 11:19 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez John Smoltz Mike Piazza Jeff Bagwell Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Craig Biggio Tim Raines Alan Trammell JUST OUT (numbers game): Sheffield, Martinez, Schilling, McGwire JUST OUT (borderline): Kent, Walker, McGriff, Mussina, Sosa, Delgado, Mattingly, Smith, Percival JUST PLAIN OUT: Everybody else

Gwreck Nov 24 2014 11:23 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

My Ten: Bagwell Biggio Bonds Clemens Johnson P. Martinez McGwire Piazza Raines Trammell Left off due to lack of room on the ballot: E. Martinez Schilling Smoltz Walker

Mets – Willets Point Nov 24 2014 11:24 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

There are probably 13 guys I'd vote for.

Edgy MD Nov 24 2014 11:35 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Vic Sage wrote: no to Sheff on character grounds? or because you just don't think he was as good as Schilling? It's not really a no, so much as a not-as-much-as. I guess I'd consider Sheff's counterproductive personality (and it's not like Schilling is the awesomest) if the two were closer in my mind. The ballot is stacked.

Edgy MD Nov 25 2014 07:26 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I keep thinking Aaron Boone retired after coming to camp with the 2006 Mets, but that was Bret. Didn't even get into a game, I think. Both, by the way, are supposedly direct descendants of Dan'l.

seawolf17 Nov 25 2014 08:04 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Gonna put up a vote poll.

Nymr83 Nov 26 2014 07:12 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

merge this into the one with the poll?

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 26 2014 08:49 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Recognizing that I am usually the first one to jump all over Verducci, I do think his column about Gil Hodges and the Hall is excellent. [url]http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/11/25/gil-hodges-hall-fame-brooklyn-dodgers

86-Dreamer Nov 26 2014 11:18 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Recognizing that I am usually the first one to jump all over Verducci, I do think his column about Gil Hodges and the Hall is excellent. [url]http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/11/25/gil-hodges-hall-fame-brooklyn-dodgers agree, that is the best of many I have read about Hodges.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 08 2014 12:10 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Meanwhile, if Mike Piazza falls one vote short next month, here's your man. Lynn Henning of the Detroit News is boycotting this year because he's angry that he can't vote for more than 10 players. http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinio ... /20094565/ I realize his vote won't play into the percentages unless he turns in blank ballot. But he's screwing the mid-level guys he proclaims to be helping. Randy Johnson and Pedro are gonna get in regardless. This also is why there will never be a unanimous player. There's always somebody out there looking to draw attention to himself make a statement.

Ceetar Dec 08 2014 12:22 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Buster Olney too on the abstaining.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 08 2014 12:31 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Here's Buster's rant. [url]http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/buster-olney/post/_/id/8805?ex_cid=InsiderTwitter_whyimabstainingfromhalloffamevoting Hey, Buster. This balloting is controlled entirely by the baseball writers themselves. Round up your colleagues and fix the problem.

seawolf17 Dec 08 2014 01:51 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: Buster Olney too on the abstaining. Abstaining helps, though, because then it doesn't count toward the percentage. The blank ballots are the idiotic ones.

Edgy MD Dec 08 2014 01:56 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Abstaining, I guess, would help in theory. But if a supporter of Tim Raines thinks not casting his vote for Tim Raines or anybody is the best way to push his numbers up, he or she is wrong.

seawolf17 Dec 08 2014 02:08 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: Abstaining, I guess, would help in theory. But if a supporter of Tim Raines thinks not casting his vote for Tim Raines or anybody is the best way to push his numbers up, he or she is wrong. Agreed.

Gwreck Dec 08 2014 02:27 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Hey, Buster. This balloting is controlled entirely by the baseball writers themselves. Round up your colleagues and fix the problem. Ding ding ding! We have a winner! I recall that Jayson Stark is also a big opponent of the 10-player limit. Time for the BBWAA to get their house in order. I also think there's probably some other voting reform that can be done. They make writers wait 10 years before getting a ballot. They should apply a similar rule to writers who no longer cover the game. If you're like our man Murray C. and you've stopped covering baseball, I think it's time to take those votes away.

bmfc1 Dec 16 2014 04:50 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... ing#gid=16

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 16 2014 04:57 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

bmfc1 wrote: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmkBNPY405WAdFBOUVBhbjNRZjYzbWI2d201bm0tSmc&usp=sharing#gid=16 That's cool! Looking forward to the updates. A little surprised by the support for Smoltz. Imagine if Sheffield is a 500-homer guy and falls off on his first ballot?

G-Fafif Dec 16 2014 05:04 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

If you follow the link on the spreadsheet to the voter who thus far has ixnayed Piazza (specifically to the column in which the voter explains his ballot), you're almost glad not to have the support of one Dan Shaughnessy. So let it rip. Bring on the hate. Bring on the humiliation. Bring on the blogboy outrage. Bring on the analytic arrogance. Bring on the PED Hall Pass. It’s a tradition like no other. [...] Raines and Trammell are problematic and I am guilty of inconsistency with their candidacies. Raines was a rare combination of power (170 homers) and speed (808 steals). He had six 100-run seasons. Trammell is going to be off the ballot soon, and won’t make the Hall with the BBWAA, but there’s lots of value in a shortstop who hit .300 seven times, won four Gold Gloves and should have been MVP (he lost to George Bell) in 1987. [...] no votes for guys who just don’t look right. Bagwell and Piazza are the two players most penalized for this arbitrary crime. By any statistical measurement, Bagwell and Piazza are first-ballot Hall of Famers, yet their vote totals (62 percent for Piazza last year, 54 percent for Bagwell) remain considerably lower than their résumés merit. Sticks his tongue out at readers. Doesn't say why Raines is problematic. Is down on Piazza and Bagwell for not looking "right" and uses as a further argument for not putting them in the HOF the fact that they're not in the HOF.

Edgy MD Dec 16 2014 06:10 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

How childish.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 16 2014 08:56 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

G-Fafif wrote: If you follow the link on the spreadsheet to the voter who thus far has ixnayed Piazza (specifically to the column in which the voter explains his ballot), you're almost glad not to have the support of one Dan Shaughnessy. So let it rip. Bring on the hate. Bring on the humiliation. Bring on the blogboy outrage. Bring on the analytic arrogance. Bring on the PED Hall Pass. It’s a tradition like no other. [...] Raines and Trammell are problematic and I am guilty of inconsistency with their candidacies. Raines was a rare combination of power (170 homers) and speed (808 steals). He had six 100-run seasons. Trammell is going to be off the ballot soon, and won’t make the Hall with the BBWAA, but there’s lots of value in a shortstop who hit .300 seven times, won four Gold Gloves and should have been MVP (he lost to George Bell) in 1987. [...] no votes for guys who just don’t look right. Bagwell and Piazza are the two players most penalized for this arbitrary crime. By any statistical measurement, Bagwell and Piazza are first-ballot Hall of Famers, yet their vote totals (62 percent for Piazza last year, 54 percent for Bagwell) remain considerably lower than their résumés merit. Sticks his tongue out at readers. Doesn't say why Raines is problematic. Is down on Piazza and Bagwell for not looking "right" and uses as a further argument for not putting them in the HOF the fact that they're not in the HOF. He's down on Piazza and Bagwell, but votes for Randy Johnson? That makes no sense to me.

Edgy MD Dec 16 2014 09:11 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I imagine Johnson didn't betray a steroid look to him like Piazza and Bagwell did.

Frayed Knot Dec 16 2014 09:33 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Except for the acne.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 16 2014 09:44 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: I imagine Johnson didn't betray a steroid look to him like Piazza and Bagwell did. Or Biggio? (Also omitted on CHB's ballot.)

Edgy MD Dec 17 2014 05:29 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Frayed Knot wrote: Except for the acne. Well, I'm making assumptions about his mindset here, but it's not like Johnson didn't come into the league with some facial anomalies. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I imagine Johnson didn't betray a steroid look to him like Piazza and Bagwell did. Or Biggio? (Also omitted on CHB's ballot.) Still assuming, but I'm guessing his case against Biggio isn't a broadside against the "PED Hall Pass," but rather an atomic wedgie opposing "analytic arrogance." The analytic arrogance that has given his city's team --- disappointed for 86 years --- three world championships in a decade.

seawolf17 Dec 17 2014 07:23 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I love that; thanks for the link. By the way, this is finally the year that Mattingly falls off the ballot. Yay!

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 22 2014 12:28 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Boooooo. Marty Noble's not a Piazza voter! [url]http://m.mlb.com/news/article/103924406/marty-noble-thoughts-on-the-hall-of-fame-ballot This is the kind of stuff that drives me crazy: So what else is there, now that the envelope has been sealed and mailed, though not yet counted? Another year will pass before I need to study Kent, who I sense is HOF-worthy, and Mike Mussina, who is ... well, I'm not sure. I withheld my vote from Kent this year only because I don't care to see the Cooperstown stage sag under too much weight come July 26. Three's company, four's a crowd. Behold, your veteran baseball writer, who is too busy to "study" Jeff Kent and limits his ballot to three candidates, not because there aren't more deserving players, but because "four's a crowd." Incredible.

Gwreck Dec 22 2014 12:32 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

If considering candidates is too hard work for Marty, maybe he should resign his vote. Embracing laziness is awful. He should be ashamed to have written that.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 22 2014 12:36 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The weight of the stage woudln't be an issue if Marty and his colleagues had done their job and not created such a backlog. This is where the years of inducting one player -- or not a single player -- become problematic. And how is he even considering voting for Kent, but not Piazza?

Edgy MD Dec 22 2014 12:49 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The notion that "I see 10 worthwhile players, but I will withhold voting for 10, because I only want to see three get in at a time," doesn't hold up logically. If everyone voted that way, there'd be one or zero inducted. Trust the process or agitate to change the process. Don't war with yourself and vote against your own perspective and better judgment. That p&bj is exactly what's being polled and what the writers allegedly bring to the process.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 22 2014 12:59 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Shit ballot for Marty, and the column accompanying it is pretty fuddy-duddy itself. He's one of those guys who feels strongly about those convictions he has and he's set in his ways. So he not only misses the big picture, but he doesn't care.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 22 2014 01:20 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Apparently Marty hasn't thought about Craig Biggio yet, either.

metsmarathon Dec 22 2014 02:02 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

jibbers! the very reason there's such a backlog, such a call for hte ballot to be expanded beyond 10 players, indeed a need to fill up all 10 spots on hte ballot, is because of foolish voting practices like this, and the silly, assinine notion of the first-ballot hall of famer. and for the love of chistmas, if ralph kiner (15th ballot) is the same amount of a hall of famer as lou gehrig (1st ballot), then by the same measure, would not there also be no differnce between barry larkin (lone BBWAA enshrinee in '12) and babe ruth, honus wagner, ty cobb, christy matthewson, and walter johnson (five fuckin' guys inducted at the same time!). if babe ruth is the same amount of hall of famer as barry larkin, then it doesn't matter if there's one guy or thirty guys inducted this year, if they all have merit. they're all the same damned amount of hall of famer. if alan trammel should be a hall of famer, but risks falling off due to time and rules, vote him the fuck in instead of pretending to wring your hands while patting yourself on the back for doing your job in the worst way possible. 10 players were inducted in 1945, 11 players in 1946 ("old timers" all). the podium held up just fine.

SteveJRogers Dec 22 2014 05:14 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Baseball Think Factory's ballot collecting gizmo.

Edgy MD Dec 22 2014 05:36 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Nothing against John Shmutz, but... there's about eight guys outside looking in that shine brighter to me. [list:1xqajnfn]98.0 - P. Martinez 98.0 - R. Johnson 88.2 - Smoltz 84.3 - Biggio 78.4 - Piazza ———————————— 70.6 - Bagwell 68.6 - Raines 56.9 - Schilling 43.1 - Mussina 39.2 - Bonds 37.3 - Clemens 25.5 - E. Martinez 25.5 - Trammell 17.6 - McGriff 15.7 - Lee Smith 13.7 - Kent 9.8 - McGwire 9.8 - Sheffield 7.8 - L. Walker ————————————- 3.9 - Sosa 2.0 - Garciaparra 2.0 - Pete Rose (Write-In)[/list:u:1xqajnfn] And how about Sosa? Six hunnert homers sure doesn't buy what it used to.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 23 2014 07:00 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Agree about Smoltz. I wish Piazza's percentage was in the 80s to feel a little more confident. I'm fearing he'll fall just short again.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2014 07:14 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Folks out there with mixed feelings. If Piazza gets in this year, induction weekend will conflict with the Heart concert.

G-Fafif Dec 23 2014 07:16 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Agree about Smoltz. I wish Piazza's percentage was in the 80s to feel a little more confident. I'm fearing he'll fall just short again. Might be wise to subtract 'X'% from any given "votes already in" percentage in deference to the voters who no longer publish anywhere and probably aren't interested in giving the baseball public a heads up (and are probably more likely to be flinty with their choices). Last year it was "who wouldn't vote for Greg Maddux?" Several voters didn't. Enough to preserve the magic 98.84% of Tom's, which was fine by me, but indicative that a few more "you've got to be kidding" nays lay in the woods, thus nullifying what appear to be overwhelming and/or adequate levels of support. So if Pedro seems on track by these estimates for, say, 97%, I'd guess it will be more like 91%, which of course won't matter for induction. But I have a hunch that if these trackers have Piazza's exit poll numbers between 75 and 80%, he'll fall close to Biggio-short in real life (and that he's going in with Junior next year).

Edgy MD Dec 27 2014 09:20 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Be interesting to see what X looks like. Right now, Mike Piazza is ahead of Biggio. Sheffield candidacy looks to be the most notable casualty, but Larry Walker and Sammy Sosa are teetering on the edge of oblivion, too. Guy PCT Pedro Martinez 100.00% Randy Johnson 98.72% John Smoltz 88.46% Mike Piazza 84.62% Craig Biggio 79.49% Jeff Bagwell 74.36% Tim Raines 66.67% Curt Schilling 58.97% Barry Bonds 50.00% Roger Clemens 48.72% Mike Mussina 42.31% Edgar Martinez 28.21% Alan Trammell 23.08% Lee Smith 15.38% Fred McGriff 12.82% Jeff Kent 8.97% Mark McGwire 8.97% Sammy Sosa 6.41% Larry Walker 6.41% Gary Sheffield 3.85% Carlos Delgado 1.28% Nomar Garciaparra 1.28% Don Mattingly 1.28% Aaron Boone 0.00% Tony Clark 0.00% Jermaine Dye 0.00% Darin Erstad 0.00% Cliff Floyd 0.00% Brian Giles 0.00% Tom Gordon 0.00% Eddie Guardado 0.00% Jack Morris 0.00% Troy Percival 0.00% Jason Schmidt 0.00%

Vic Sage Dec 28 2014 12:26 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

i can understand Sheffield not getting in because of his name in the Mitchell Report (and his statements about race, as well as the commonly held view that he didn't have much heart and integrity, and was just an asshole generally), but to fall off the ballot after 1 year? A guy with 500+ career HRs, whose average line over a 20+ year career was .290ba/100r/100rbi/30hr/20sb with a .900 OPS/140 OPS+, a guy who had 9 AS appearances, 5 SS awards (at 2 different positions), 6 times in the top 10 in MVP voting, and a WS championship, should not just fall off the ballot after 1 year unless he actually killed somebody. Or at least got convicted of a felony. The other steroids guys are still on the ballot, and being an asshole shouldn't be a good enough distinction from the rest to bump him so unceremoniously (particularly when the rest include such spectacularly assholish types as Bonds and Clemens.)

batmagadanleadoff Dec 28 2014 05:55 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Sheffield just might be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Look at that ballot. I bet you could make the case for there being 10 more deserving candidates than Sheffield. Here's a hypothetical: what if 11 deserving Hall of Fame inductees are on the same ballot, and one of those deserving candidates is clearly the 11th best of the bunch. If every writer voted correctly and efficiently, that 11th best HOF candidate wouldn't receive a single vote and his candidacy would be terminated.

Vic Sage Dec 28 2014 09:09 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

the reason that remains a hypothetical is that there is nobody who is clearly "11th best". Its a subjective analysis, at least in part, and a reasoned and reasonable argument could be made for Sheffield in the top 10. He's got at least as good a case as Schilling, Mussina, EMart, Trammell, F.McGriff and Lee Smith, none of whom is in danger of falling off the ballot, and any of whom might one day be elected. Even roiders like McGwire and Sosa have stayed on the ballot for a number of years (not to mention obvious 1st ballot guys like Bonds and Clemens). If these percentages continue, Sheff would be the first 500hr guy to fall off the ballot after 1 election (i'm guessing, but it seems likely to be true... maybe Palmiero, too?). Why is Sheff a special case? I guess he's a victim of a toxic blend of roids, assholeness and borderline stats, as well as a ballot stacked up because of past writer bans on roiders (both real and imagined).

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 28 2014 09:48 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

If my eyes aren't deceiving me, there's at least a couple of McGwire-not-Piazza votes. I mean, granted, Summer-of-'98, and that's a lot of home runs, but if you're NOT eschewing a vote for Mike because of defense and perceived-roidiness, then... ?

Edgy MD Dec 28 2014 01:21 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I can live with the McGwire-not-Piazza minority. It's more the Smoltz-not-Mussina majority that concerns me (and I don't think I voted for either).

Edgy MD Dec 28 2014 02:55 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I just went back and checked. I myself voted for Smoltz over Mussina. I am my own enemy! I suspect NL bias and anti-Yankee bias colored my voting. I revoted, tossing Smoltz out and adding Moose, and I would beg you other Smoltz voters to consider these cases closely and perhaps join me in jumping.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 28 2014 04:52 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

eff Mussina.

Edgy MD Dec 28 2014 05:48 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Yeah, well, you left your undies behind the last time you used my washing machine.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 28 2014 06:20 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: I just went back and checked. I myself voted for Smoltz over Mussina. I am my own enemy! Holy heck! You're absolutely Wright. I just Marty McFlyed my Smoltzvote, too... only to Schilling, not Moose (tie goes to the longer, better absolute peak-- three 8-WAR, Cyworthy years in four).

Edgy MD Dec 28 2014 09:25 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I already had Schilling in there. A touch less WAR than Moo-See-Nah, but the post-season certainly carries the day for him in that matchup.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 28 2014 11:14 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, well, you left your undies behind the last time you used my washing machine. Oh I am so burnt.

Ceetar Dec 29 2014 07:54 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I had Smoltz and not Mussina as well, but mainly because I'd already decided Smoltz was one, because I wanted to slight Clemens (you bum), and there is a stupid 10 person limit that basically lets you slight people. I haven't looked closely at Mussina to decide, and didn't have to yet.

Edgy MD Dec 29 2014 08:11 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I’m Nomar Garciaparra. I went .313 / .361 / .521 // .882 over 6,116 plate appearances, 78% from the shortstop position. Each of these rate stats are decidedly superior to, for instance, Cal Ripken, or for another instance, Robin Yount. I batted .357 in 1999 and followed that up with a .372 in 2000. Inflated era? Maybe, but both those numbers led the rest of the inflated-assed league. In 2002, I hit 56 doubles and 85 extra-base hits. I never quite won an MVP, but I accumulated 1.67 MVP shares. They used to call me a super shortstop. I am about to disappear quietly after one season on the ballot, getting 1.28% of the vote from the BBWAA and 0.00% from the CPFAA.

SteveJRogers Dec 29 2014 10:47 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: I’m Nomar Garciaparra. I went .313 / .361 / .521 // .882 over 6,116 plate appearances, 78% from the shortstop position. Each of these rate stats are decidedly superior to, for instance, Cal Ripken, or for another instance, Robin Yount. I batted .357 in 1999 and followed that up with a .372 in 2000. Inflated era? Maybe, but both those numbers led the rest of the inflated-assed league. In 2002, I hit 56 doubles and 85 extra-base hits. I never quite won an MVP, but I accumulated 1.67 MVP shares. They used to call me a super shortstop. I am about to disappear quietly after one season on the ballot, getting 1.28% of the vote from the BBWAA and 0.00% from the CPFAA. Bad breakup in Boston, missed out on the championship run. Often injured after 2001, wouldn't play more than 122 games since playing in 156 in 2003 (hey kind makes me think of a guy the media members and certain segments of the fanbase seem to be hot and heavy for these days). In fact, 2006 is really his only big year after leaving the Red Sox, his final AS appearance and appearance in MVP voting. While injuries are a factor in his decline, and his slash percentage numbers still stay consistent, it is easy to see why he's falling off. Now, Carlos Delgado and Gary Sheffield I can see you building a case for why they shouldn't be "one and dones"

Vic Sage Dec 31 2014 07:51 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

were i to reconsider Smoltz/Mussina, it'd only be to drop Smoltz off my ballot, not to add Moose. To me, they are both on the J.Morris/Pettite/Schilling/K.Brown/Hershiser tier of borderline HOFers, without a clear mandate for any of them (i.e.,more Drysdale than Koufax), so it becomes a somewhat idiosyncratic task in choosing among them. For me, the difference is Smoltz' excellence as both a starter and closer. Winning a CY as a starter and then the Rolaids as a top closer is unique accomplishment. And then to be able to make the transition back to an effective starter at the end of his career? unprecedented accomplishment.

Edgy MD Dec 31 2014 08:25 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Mussina was 270-153, 3.57 in an historically offensive era, with 83 WAR, according to BB-R's formula. He threw 3,562 innings and another 2/3 of a season of a post-season ball, going 7-8, 3.42. He consistently got 17-19 wins before finally winning 20 in his last season and then hanging it up, the first player to retire after a 20-win season since... Sandy Koufax. Smoltz got 69.5 WAR, though BB-R probably undervalues relief pitching. What puts him over the top is probably his post-season record. While Mussina was solid to good, Smoltz, in 27 starts and 14 relief appearances, was great, going 15-4/2.67, with an additional four saves. The difference in WAR is notable to me. But Smoltz's between Smoltz's post-season edge and my notion of relief being undervalued by WAR, I'd have to call them pretty close. They have a pretty similar class of comparables, with a lot of the same names appearing on both lists. Most Similar to Smoltz Most Similar to Mussina [list=1][*]Curt Schilling (876)[/*:m] [*]Kevin Brown (867)[/*:m] [*]Jim Bunning (864) *[/*:m] [*]Luis Tiant (863)[/*:m] [*]Orel Hershiser (859)[/*:m] [*]Bob Welch (855)[/*:m] [*]Jim Perry (848)[/*:m] [*]Catfish Hunter (848) *[/*:m] [*]Billy Pierce (841)[/*:m] [*]Don Drysdale (841) *[/*:m][/list:o] [list=1][*]Andy Pettitte (912)[/*:m] [*]Juan Marichal (866) *[/*:m] [*]David Wells (863)[/*:m] [*]Curt Schilling (860)[/*:m] [*]Jim Palmer (855) *[/*:m] [*]Carl Hubbell (855) *[/*:m] [*]Kevin Brown (844)[/*:m] [*]Tim Hudson (840)[/*:m] [*]Jack Morris (838)[/*:m] [*]CC Sabathia (837)[/*:m][/list:o] Both lists are filled with borderline candidates, but I'd say Mussina's is a slightly stronger field of borderline candidates. And of course, the similarity scores don't account for era. Funny that Mussina gets a handful of lefties on his list.

metsmarathon Dec 31 2014 09:05 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

if i look to JAWS as my metric of choice, i could make an argument that nomar garciaparra is a better hof candidate than carlos delgado and don mattingly, and also jeff kent, but not quite gary sheffield. lets take a look, shall we? JAWS basically averages the total WAR accumulated in a players career with his WAR accumulated during the peak 7-years of his career. we'll be using bbref's own WAR calculation here, though different WAR measures might yeild different results (because of course they do). for his career, nomar accumulated 44.2 WAR, with 43 of those coming in his peak 7 years. his JAWS score is then 43.6. the average JAWS score for a hall of fame shortstop is 54.7. so nomar's JAWS is 79.7% of the average hall of famer at his primary position. not terrible at all, though not quite worthy of induction, to my mind. but it shouldn't wipe him clean from the ballot, either, in a fair system. for comparison, carlos delgado has a career WAR of 44.3, and a WAR7 of 34.5, giving him a JAWS score of only 39.4. he's at only 72.7% of hte average hall of fame first baseman (54.2), though he does sit just ahead of don mattingly's 38.9 JAWS (71.8% of teh average HOF 1bman). donnie baseball was on 8% of ballots last year. carlos delgado should get similar consideration, no? especially with far better offensive numbers. but it won't happen, will it? moving further up the ballot, we see jeff kent. last year he was on 15% of the vote. he had a longer career than nomar, putting up bigger overall numbers, albeit with lesser rate stats. indeed, jeff kent's career WAR is 55.2, but his WAR7 is only 35.6, giving him a JAWS score of 45.4. better than nomar by a smidge. but the average hall of fame second baseman has a JAWS of 57, meaning jeff kent is only 79.6% of the average. again, not terrible. but equivalent to nomar. yet nomar might drop wholly free from the ballot, while kent might even get more votes. gary sheffield has a similarly fine career WAR of 60.2, with a smallish WAR7 of 37.9. yep, at their respective peaks, nomar was a more valuable player than sheffield. but sheff certainly has the edge in longevity, and his JAWS is at 49. compared to the average outfielder's 58.1, he's a 84.3%. better than nomar. still, perhaps a bit shy of deserving consideration. indeed, by this metric, a comparison between a player's JAWS and hte JAWS of the average hall of famer at the position, gary sheffield is 18th on the overly stuffed ballot. lets look at the names ahead of him. 1. barry bonds 220.6% 2. roger clemens 167.2% 3. randy johnson 132.7% 4. mike piazza 118.8% 5. jeff bagwell 117.9% 6. pedro martinez 115.0% 7. alan trammell 105.1% (trammel's JAWS of 57.5 is just ahead of derek jeter's 57.0. how, again, is he not in yet?) 8. curt schilling 104.4% 9. tim raines 104.3% 10. mike mussina 103.2% 11. edgar martinez 101.8% (i'm not sure what his JAWS equivalency is; perhaps all HOF batters? his JAWS is at 56, and that compares to a positional average of 55.) 12. larry walker 100.9% 13. mark mcgwire 95.8% 14. craig biggio 93.7% 15. sammy sosa 87.8% 16. john smoltz 87.7% (he's being compared here to a full-time starting pitcher. the positional average for a starting pitcher is 61.8; for a reliever, its at 34.4. if you ran a weighted average of his time spent as a starter and his time spent as a reliever, his percentage would go up by a little. for instance, if i weight his JPOS by opponent plate appearances as a starter and a reliever, it drops to 59.7, giving him a 90.7%. weighting it by IP as a starter or reliever, it drops to 59.8 giving him a 90.7%, and if i quite favorbaly weight it by years as a starter or reliever, it drops to 56.6, giving him a 95.8%. still, a below average hall of famer, but by less than would be assumed just from comparing him to a starter.) 17. tom gordon 85.2% (i know, right? relievers. whaddayagonnado? gordon had a JAWS of 29.3, and reliever average 34.4 in the hall of fame. his score would drop if i accounted for his 203 games started, but i'm not in the mood to do more math.) 18. gary aforementioned sheffield 84.3% oh what the heck, lets keep going. this is fun. 19. fred mcgriff 81.4% 20. nomar garciaparra 79.7% 21. jeff kent 79.6% 22. brian giles 75.9% (what? no way! he's really ahead of...) 23. lee smith 73.8% 24. carlos delgado 72.7% 25. don mattingly 71.8% (doesn't look so hot when you rank him this way, eh?) 26. darin erstad 53.3% well, you get the idea. from here down, it's not so impressive.

Edgy MD Jan 02 2015 07:51 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Raines gaining. Bagwell fading a little. Sosa and Sheffield escaping oblivion. 99.1 - R. Johnson 98.2 - P. Martinez 89.2 - Smoltz 83.8 - Biggio 79.3 - Piazza ———————————— 69.4 - Bagwell 63.0 - Raines 58.6 - Schilling 44.1 - Mussina 44.1 - Bonds 43.2 - Clemens 27.9 - E. Martinez 23.4 - Trammell 16.2 - McGriff 16.2 - Lee Smith 13.5 - Kent 9.0 - L. Walker 8.1 - Sheffield 6.3 - McGwire 5.4 - Sosa ————————————- 2.7 - Mattingly 1.8 - Pete Rose (Write-In) 0.9 - Garciaparra 0.9 - Delgado

Ceetar Jan 02 2015 07:54 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I'd like to argue that if write-ins for Pete Rose are actually be tabulated and not thrown out, you should be able to write-in 15 names if you wanted.

Gwreck Jan 02 2015 07:58 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Write-ins are not actually tabulated.

Edgy MD Jan 02 2015 07:59 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Mike Beradino, St. Paul Pioneer Press, somehow turned in this ballot. Jeff Bagwell Craig Biggio Edgar Martinez Mike Mussina Mike Piazza Tim Raines Curt Schilling John Smoltz Alan Trammell Larry Walker This may be the guy using the style endorsed by batmagadan --- withholding votes for surefire winners like Martinez and Johnson in order to give them to candidates he likes but are getting lost in the shuffle (Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Schilling, Trammell, Walker).

Ceetar Jan 02 2015 08:03 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Gwreck wrote: Write-ins are not actually tabulated. right, but it's not like those ballots are thrown out for being invalid right?

Gwreck Jan 02 2015 08:14 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

It doesn't matter. If you check 10 boxes and also write "Pete Rose" on the bottom of the ballot, you voted for the 10 players whose boxes were checked. Same thing if you check 10 boxes and also write "Easter Bunny" on the bottom of the ballot.

Ceetar Jan 02 2015 08:19 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Gwreck wrote: It doesn't matter. If you check 10 boxes and also write "Pete Rose" on the bottom of the ballot, you voted for the 10 players whose boxes were checked. Same thing if you check 10 boxes and also write "Easter Bunny" on the bottom of the ballot. so check 15 boxes. so write 15 names at the bottom. etc etc.

A Boy Named Seo Jan 02 2015 09:35 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: Mike Beradino, St. Paul Pioneer Press, somehow turned in this ballot. Jeff Bagwell Craig Biggio Edgar Martinez Mike Mussina Mike Piazza Tim Raines Curt Schilling John Smoltz Alan Trammell Larry Walker This may be the guy using the style endorsed by batmagadan --- withholding votes for surefire winners like Martinez and Johnson in order to give them to candidates he likes but are getting lost in the shuffle (Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Schilling, Trammell, Walker). His vote was strategic, just as you and bats described which totally amplifies the flaws in the voting system.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 02 2015 10:39 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Mike Beradino, St. Paul Pioneer Press, somehow turned in this ballot. Jeff Bagwell Craig Biggio Edgar Martinez Mike Mussina Mike Piazza Tim Raines Curt Schilling John Smoltz Alan Trammell Larry Walker This may be the guy using the style endorsed by batmagadan --- withholding votes for surefire winners like Martinez and Johnson in order to give them to candidates he likes but are getting lost in the shuffle (Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Schilling, Trammell, Walker). His vote was strategic, just as you and bats described which totally amplifies the flaws in the voting system. It does, however, make it impossible for those surefire guys to be unanimous and makes it tougher for them to break Seaver's percentage for greatest percentage. I'm appalled and happy at the same time.

Mets – Willets Point Jan 02 2015 12:14 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

All of these candidates will be elected in 2019 alongside Jeter. Because he makes everyone beside him on the ballot better.

Gwreck Jan 02 2015 02:37 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: so check 15 boxes. so write 15 names at the bottom. etc etc. If you check more than 10 boxes, your ballot is invalid, no matter what else you write on the ballot. The instructions are to vote for up to 10. This is not complicated. There is no room for write-in votes, and write-in votes are not counted, whether you submit an otherwise valid or an otherwise invalid ballot.

bmfc1 Jan 02 2015 09:02 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Tom Verducci stopped fellating Jeter and Torre long enough to vote and he didn't vote for Piazza.

Gwreck Jan 03 2015 08:51 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Verducci found room on his ballot for both Jeff Kent and Fred McGriff.

HahnSolo Jan 03 2015 01:08 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Mets – Willets Point wrote: All of these candidates will be elected in 2019 alongside Jeter. Because he makes everyone beside him on the ballot better. Please. We'll all be sickened by the sheer volume of "Jeter should go in by himself" articles come 2019.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 03 2015 03:17 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Gwreck wrote: Verducci found room on his ballot for both Jeff Kent and Fred McGriff. AND Bagwell. Which is big, because he's been a big no-PED-user guy. And a guy-with-an-outsized-esteem-of-his-own-analytic-abilities guy. And a guy-who-tries-to-coin-phrases-with-his-own-name-in-them-guy.

Valadius Jan 03 2015 07:20 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

What's stunning to me is how low Jeff Kent's percentage is after reading articles for years about the "future Hall-of-Famer". Then again, given the backloaded ballot that's entirely the writers' fault for being overly restrictive with their votes over about a decade, this is the outcome you get. Updated: Jan 3: 8:00 ~ 127 Full Ballots ~ (22.1% of vote ~ based on last year) ~ As usual…BBWAA ballot digging is welcome! 99.2 - R. Johnson 97.6 - P. Martinez 89.8 - Smoltz 82.7 - Biggio 78.7 - Piazza ———————————— 70.9 - Bagwell 66.1 - Raines 56.7 - Schilling 42.5 - Mussina 42.5 - Bonds 41.7 - Clemens 27.6 - E. Martinez 22.8 - Trammell 18.9 - Lee Smith 15.7 - McGriff 14.2 - Kent 9.4 - L. Walker 8.7 - Sheffield 6.3 - McGwire 5.5 - Sosa ————————————- 4.7 - Mattingly 1.6 - Pete Rose (Write-In) 0.8 - Garciaparra 0.8 - Delgado

Edgy MD Jan 03 2015 08:50 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Seems to me like a good chance that Piazza falls out of the money. And that Pedro falls below the Seaver threshold. I mean, two or three guys will turn in a blank ballot, right? And they won't be the ones to write a column about it beforehand.

Ceetar Jan 03 2015 09:37 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

At this part of the problem is these guys can't help but be compared to each other and it makes those fringier guys seem like not Hall guys because they're not Pedro and Bonds. It's kinda funny, guys being punished for not hitting as well as Barry because it was an offensive era but Bonds himself being punished for hitting like that.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 03 2015 10:21 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: Seems to me like a good chance that Piazza falls out of the money. And that Pedro falls below the Seaver threshold. I mean, two or three guys will turn in a blank ballot, right? And they won't be the ones to write a column about it beforehand. Oh, certainly. Back of the envelope, I figure, Mikey's should probably be at least at 80 by the time publicized ballots stop rolling in; he and Bagwell lost something like 3-4 percent last time, and there always seems to be a big chunk of strange bubbling up from the unseen.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 04 2015 06:11 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Marty Noble on MLB channel discussing his vote makes about the best case for radical changes required. He's like a demented nightclub doorman.

G-Fafif Jan 04 2015 07:51 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I disagree with Marty's and others' call to not vote Piazza, but they're entitled to do as they see fit (the dopes). It's when Noble starts to explain his process -- which is essentially "these are Hall of Famers, these others aren't but maybe I'll look into these others next year" -- that I cringe. I appreciate the transparency but I think I'd be less alarmed or perhaps saddened if, when his ballot was revealed, he just said, "My pencil broke and I was able to check only three boxes. Gotta get a better pencil sharpener next year."

MFS62 Jan 04 2015 09:35 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I can understand how some voters feel that the Hall should be reserved for only the greats. But, Howard Cosell used to say "He's the best there is at what he does". And if someone is the absolute best at his position during the time in which he played and compares favorably with the best of other eras, IMO he deserves induction. And Mike Piazza fits that description. Later

metsmarathon Jan 05 2015 12:23 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

smoltz is getting massively overcompensated for his three years of seemingly stellar relief work. i played a little game of what-if, and i still think he falls short of other pitchers on the ballot. namely schilling and mussina. i think that part of what hte voters are doing is looking at his missing three years of starting, thinking how great a reliever he was, based on his save totals, and extrapolating htat out to imply that he would have been an even so very much stronger starting pitcher. i mean, look at his 2003! a 1.12 ERA! and 55 saves the year before! and 45 saves hte year after! but he did it as a reliever. and i think it's really, really wishful thinking to think that he would have been the same pitcher as a starter those three years. especially in '03, he pounded hte strike zone like never before. and when he was again a starter, he still featured a somewhat reduced walk rate relative to his pre-relieving days, but not by as much as when he was a reliever. his k-rate and hr/9 also improved enough to indicate a change in pitching style, not necessarily ability. so again, i don;t htink it's fair to think that he would have had the same 1.12 ERA in his typical 250 innings as a starter, instead of the 64 relief innings he did throw in 2003. what is perhaps fair to credit him for is a career year - in line with his cy young 1996 campaign. 2.94 ERA in 253 innings. good for a 7.3 WAR, per bbref. so here's my approach. take smoltz's 2003 season, and credit him with 7.3 WAR as a starter instead of 3.3 WAR as a reliever. then, looking at his 2002 & 2004 seasons, i think of them as roughly equivalent. one has a better ERA, the other a better FIP. if i credit him with 5 WAR in each, tehy represent his 5th and 6th best seasons in his career. and based on my rough translation from starting to relieving, i think i'm being fair. this gives him a total WAR of 79.3 (i'm also considering his 2001 as about a 3 WAR season for a starter, but that might be overly generous) and the sum of his top 7 seasons as 40.8. his JAWS would then be a generous 60.05, an improvement over his current 54.2, but still less than schilling and mussina, and slightly below an average hall of fame starting pitcher. on my prior scale, he would slot in as 13th best on the '15 ballot, with a score of 97.2%. i'd probably have to make a few more stretches and happy assumptions before he overtakes either of those guys. basically, i'd have to fabricate another 3 WAR for him to catch mussina, and 4 WAR to catch schilling. WAR isn't everything, of course. and while smoltz might make up a fair amount of the distance between he and mussina in postseason performance, schilling still has the edge there, too. (11-2, 2.23 ERA and a better WHIP and K/BB in 133 innings vs 15-4, 2.67 ERA in 203 innings). by all rights, smoltz should be a hall of famer. but if we're taking turns, schilling should be ahead of him in line.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 05 2015 01:26 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ultimately, Smoltz is going in on the strength of a terrific narrative that the relieving plays a role in. He's part of the Braves' Holy Trinity with Maddux & Glavine already in. --PLUS-- He benefits as a result of the long-career-with-one-team glow, and for some reason EVERYONE remembers he was traded straight-up for Doyle Alexander as a minor leaguer. Traded guys who never again get traded/moved again are extra rare, I think. Yes his relief might be overrated result wise but he relieved only because his injuries didn't allow him any other way to contribute. He was the most selfless Brave ever! Did we mention he never bolted for another club just because the money was good? He didn't! Y'know why? Cuz he's a WINNER that's why! Can't overlook that Smoltz opposed Jack Morris in the THIS PROVES HE'S A HALL OF FAMER Game. He's closely associated with winners! He is sort of the Reverse Eckersley: Very good as a starter, more than adequate as a reliever. The writers all love Eck for remaking his career: Smoltzie did it too, only he turned himself back! What a winner! edit -- by all rights, smoltz should be a hall of famer. but if we're taking turns, schilling should be ahead of him in line. I think his getting there then only helps Schill & Mussina. Two guys with way shittier narratives, by the way: Mussina an aloof guy who bolted his regional draftee team for the big $$. His departure can be seen as going out on top, but also carried a whiff of, lacking the guts to face a career downswing. Rightly or wrongly, his story is about taking the easy way out. Schilling also chased $$ all his career, and also is the anti-Mussina in being too full of himself -- the dramatic Boston signing, the "bloody sock," etc. -- plus he seems to be a dickwad in real life (noted company failure, moronic political Twitter rube). Smotltz by contrast a beloved baseball spokesman for MLB TV.

Vic Sage Jan 05 2015 02:24 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

other views on how shafted Smoltz is by biased use of WAR and JAWS: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tu ... lp00000592

Ceetar Jan 05 2015 02:32 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Vic Sage wrote: other views on how shafted Smoltz is by biased use of WAR and JAWS: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tu ... lp00000592 He's not shafted, he didn't pitch as much. It's not that WAR is biased against relievers, it's that by any measure, being great for 240 innings is roughly 4x as good as being great for 60 innings. Relieving and Starting are not 'two separate positions' they're the same position at different points in the game.

Edgy MD Jan 05 2015 02:55 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: ...it's that by any measure, being great for 240 innings is roughly 4x as good as being great for 60 innings. I disagree with this.

Valadius Jan 05 2015 04:11 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

In my view, Smoltz was the least of the Braves' triumvirate but that doesn't mean he wasn't great himself. He'll get whisked into Cooperstown this year in the afterglow of the Maddux/Glavine/Cox trifecta from last year's class, and that should close the book on the '90s Braves until Larry becomes eligible. Next year's class will be a bit of a breather compared to the last few - Ken Griffey, Jr. and Trevor Hoffman are the big names up next year, with Billy Wagner and Jim Edmonds really the only other players worthy of prolonged consideration. But until the Hall fixes its stupid induction rules we will continue to see this mess repeated year after year.

Nymr83 Jan 05 2015 10:42 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Smoltz also needs to get credit for his playoff work... i dont think we need to overrate October (::cough::Pettite::cough::) but it does account for 209 innings of 2.67 ERA that doesnt get included in his totals. Those numbers are significant and probably the difference between him and Mussina. They aren't quite enough to catch him up to Schilling in my mind, but they both belong in.

Edgy MD Jan 05 2015 11:16 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

This came up earlier, but Mussina had a pretty solid post season career also. Schilling was simply stellar. Dynamite. Won a World Series MVP (or co-MVP, anyhow), and brought down a hateful dynasty in doing it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2015 01:16 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

At the 176 publicized ballots, Mike's just hanging on with 134 (76.14%). Predictably, the votes are heading in the wrong direction for our hero.

Valadius Jan 06 2015 06:14 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Updated: Jan 6: 7:50 ~ 188 Full Ballots ~ (32.9% of vote ~ based on last year) ~ As usual…BBWAA ballot digging is welcome! 98.9 - R. Johnson 97.9 - P. Martinez 87.2 - Smoltz 84.6 - Biggio 76.1 - Piazza ———————————— 63.3 - Raines 62.8 - Bagwell 51.1 - Schilling 43.6 - Bonds 43.6 - Clemens 35.6 - Mussina 29.3 - E. Martinez 23.4 - Trammell 19.7 - Lee Smith 16.0 - McGriff 14.4 - Kent 9.6 - Sheffield 7.4 - L. Walker 6.9 - McGwire ————————————- 4.8 - Sosa 4.8 - Mattingly 1.6 - Garciaparra 1.6 - Delgado 1.1 - Pete Rose (Write-In)

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 07:31 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Mussina would be looking down from the top of this list if Rich Garcia got the call and Jeter was called out and Jeffrey Maier ejected.

Valadius Jan 06 2015 09:22 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I'm not optimistic. Looks like most of the New York contingent has reported in. Updated: Jan 6: 10:35 ~ 192 Full Ballots ~ (33.6% of vote ~ based on last year) ~ As usual…BBWAA ballot digging is welcome! 99.0 - R. Johnson 97.9 - P. Martinez 87.0 - Smoltz 84.4 - Biggio 75.5 - Piazza ———————————— 64.0 - Raines 62.5 - Bagwell 51.6 - Schilling 43.8 - Bonds 43.8 - Clemens 35.4 - Mussina 29.7 - E. Martinez 25.5 - Trammell 20.8 - Lee Smith 15.6 - McGriff 14.6 - Kent 8.9 - Sheffield 7.8 - L. Walker 6.3 - McGwire ————————————- 4.7 - Sosa 4.7 - Mattingly 1.6 - Garciaparra 1.6 - Delgado 1.0 - Pete Rose (Write-In) 0.5 - Percival

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 09:30 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Bacne Man's hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Impressive how Bonds and Clemens seems to be a single decision for a lot of voters.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2015 09:34 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: Bacne Man's hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Is having skin on your teeth a sign of steroid use? I hope Piazza gets in. I do think he belongs, but to be honest, the Hall of Fame has come to mean very little to me. I'd almost like to see them purge the entire membership, set more specific criteria, and then start repopulating the Hall.

Gwreck Jan 06 2015 12:04 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

28 votes short this year. 69.9 percent.

sharpie Jan 06 2015 12:04 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Not Piazza's year. He gets 69.9%. Randy Johnson, Pedro, Smoltz and Biggio all get in.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 12:06 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Delgado gets 21 votes. none for Floyd.

sharpie Jan 06 2015 12:09 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

First time in 60 years that four were voted in by the writers.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2015 12:11 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

... as a near-direct result of last year's dumbvoting.

Gwreck Jan 06 2015 12:12 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Lots of strange things going on: 1. Clemens gets four more votes than Bonds. 2. Someone voted for Darin Erstad. 3. 4 people voted for Troy Percival.

metirish Jan 06 2015 12:13 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Stupid system.....fuck them

Valadius Jan 06 2015 12:17 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I think it's a certainty that Piazza goes in next year with Griffey. Still an absolute travesty he's had to wait this long.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2015 12:19 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: Bacne Man's hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Impressive how Bonds and Clemens seems to be a single decision for a lot of voters. Aren't they though? they both fall into the category of having undeniable credentials and proven steroid use. i dont think anyone else has ever fallen into both categories before (McGwire is closest, but hes been on the ballot longer and failed enough already that his supporters may be allocatig their maximum of 10 votes elsewhere) Piazza got fucked.

Centerfield Jan 06 2015 12:23 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Gwreck wrote: Lots of strange things going on: 1. Clemens gets four more votes than Bonds. 2. Someone voted for Darin Erstad. 3. 4 people voted for Troy Percival. Once you do something as stupid as voting for Darin Erstad or Troy Percival, your right to vote should be revoked. Dumb system. Let me take that back, dumb writers. If I were the Mets, I'd retire Piazza's number this year anyway. And as part of the ceremony, I'd take select quotes from Marty Noble and illustrate the kind of idiots that are keeping Mike out of the HOF.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 12:24 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Trending in the right direction, anyhow.

Mets – Willets Point Jan 06 2015 12:24 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The Baseball Hall of Fame voters are discriminatory against gay ballplayers.

d'Kong76 Jan 06 2015 12:26 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Fuck them! I will not step foot in that town again until they change the voting system. (unless I'm in the area and some wants to go the The Ommegang.)

Valadius Jan 06 2015 12:27 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

How the fuck does more than one person vote for Aaron Boone? I get that at least one hack MFY writer might vote for him, but more than one?

seawolf17 Jan 06 2015 12:29 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Valadius wrote: How the fuck does more than one person vote for Aaron Boone? I get that at least one hack MFY writer might vote for him, but more than one? Stuff like that bothers me more in a year like this where there were like eighteen guys with solid cases. Idiots. Congrats to three of the four. Eff Smoltz.

Frayed Knot Jan 06 2015 12:31 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Randy Johnson - Traded at age 25 after 10 ML starts + 1 relief appearance John Smoltz - Traded as a 20 y/o minor leaguer Pedro Martinez - Traded at age 22 after 67 games pitched but just 2 starts There might be a lesson in there somewhere but I think it's subject to interpretation.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 12:46 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Craig Biggio too. Switching positions before he was completely established as a hitter. His career was at a real crossroads.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2015 12:58 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I think the ballot clears up a little bit next year... Griffey will get in right away, Hoffman/Wagner will chill on the ballot for awhile, is that it? Jim Edmonds maybe squeeks by 5% to stay on the ballot

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 12:58 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I see mostly progress here. Momentum is building for Bagwell and Raines, if not Tremmell so much. The strongest candidate eliminated by the 5% threshold is Delgado. He's a pretty strong candidate, but I feared we see two or three others get Whittakered. Mattingly is eliminated on time. Aurilia, Clark, Dye, Floyd, Giles, Guardado, and Schmidt all get Hubie'd. Name Votes (Pct.) Yrs on ballot Randy Johnson 534 (97.3) 1 Pedro Martinez 500 (91.1) 1 John Smoltz 455 (82.9) 1 Craig Biggio 454 (82.7) 3 XXXXXXXXXX Mike Piazza 384 (69.9) 3 Jeff Bagwell 306 (55.7) 5 Tim Raines 302 (55) 8 Curt Schilling 215 (39.2) 3 Roger Clemens 206 (37.5) 3 Barry Bonds 202 (36.8) 3 Lee Smith 166 (30.2) 13 Edgar Martinez 148 (27) 6 Alan Trammell 138 (25.1) 14 Mike Mussina 135 (24.6) 2 Jeff Kent 77 (14) 2 Fred McGriff 71 (12.9) 9 Larry Walker 65 (11.8) 5 Gary Sheffield 64 (11.7) 1 Mark McGwire 55 (10) 9 =#FF0000]Don [crossout]Mattingly[/crossout] 50 (9.1) 15 Sammy Sosa 36 (6.6) 3 Nomar Garciaparra 30 (5.5) 1 XXXXXXXXXX =#FF0000][crossout]Carlos Delgado[/crossout] 21 (3.8) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Troy Percival[/crossout] 4 (0.7) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Aaron Boone[/crossout] 2 (0.4) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Tom Gordon[/crossout] 2 (0.4) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Darin Erstad[/crossout] 1 (0.2) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Rich Aurilia[/crossout] 0 (0) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Tony Clark[/crossout] 0 (0) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Jermaine Dye[/crossout] 0 (0) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Cliff Floyd[/crossout] 0 (0) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Brian Giles[/crossout] 0 (0) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Eddie Guardado[/crossout] 0 (0) 1 =#FF0000][crossout]Jason Schmidt[/crossout] 0 (0) 1

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 01:02 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Nymr83 wrote: Bacne Man's hanging on by the skin of his teeth. Impressive how Bonds and Clemens seems to be a single decision for a lot of voters. Aren't they though? they both fall into the category of having undeniable credentials and proven steroid use. i dont think anyone else has ever fallen into both categories before (McGwire is closest, but hes been on the ballot longer and failed enough already that his supporters may be allocatig their maximum of 10 votes elsewhere) How about Sosa? The dude has become little more than an afterthought. OE: Palmiero too. He got Whitakered last year on his fourth year on the ballot.

d'Kong76 Jan 06 2015 01:04 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Marty Noble on MLB channel discussing his vote makes about the best case for radical changes required. He's like a demented nightclub doorman. That's a great line there.

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2015 01:04 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Frayed Knot wrote: Randy Johnson - Traded at age 25 after 10 ML starts + 1 relief appearance John Smoltz - Traded as a 20 y/o minor leaguer Pedro Martinez - Traded at age 22 after 67 games pitched but just 2 starts There might be a lesson in there somewhere but I think it's subject to interpretation. Just as cherry picking trolling as mentioning Generation K when making an argument for moving highly touted prospects when their stock is at their highest. FWIW, the Johnson and Smoltz deals were classic prospects for "missing piece rental" deadline deals, Mark Langston, who ended up only being in Montreal for that stretch in 1989, signed with California that offseason and Doyle Alexander who did help the 1987 Tigers to the division down the stretch, but only lasted two more seasons. Pedro was moved from the Dodgers in an 1993 offseason deal for Delino DeShields, who had a pretty unproductive three seasons in LA as Pedro became a star with the Expos. Probably more in line with a Ryan for Fergosi type of move where a change in scenery did more to help a developing talent find himself.

seawolf17 Jan 06 2015 01:14 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

2106 potential ballot: http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2016.shtml Griffey is obvious. Piazza probably gets over the hump, and Bagwell and Raines will probably get close.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 01:15 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

That's some Hall of Fame form right there.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2015 01:15 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

"Pedro Martinez's first-ballot selection to the Hall of Fame is a fitting tribute to his illustrious career," said Mets COO Jeff Wilpon. "During his time with us he brought an air of professionalism to the field and to the locker room and was a source of excitement for our fans. We want to congratulate, Pedro, his wife Carolina and the rest of the Martinez family on his historic day."

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 01:20 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I considered Carolina, but there just wasn't enough room on my ballot.

bmfc1 Jan 06 2015 01:21 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Five of the ones that didn't vote for Mike Piazza and to them I say "F y'all": Heyman Noble Sherman Verducci Dan Shaughnessy.

Valadius Jan 06 2015 01:34 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Worth laying out the upcoming contenders: 2016 Ken Griffey, Jr. - Will hit a percentage somewhere near Seaver. Trevor Hoffman - All-time saves leader at time of retirement, with 601. Jim Edmonds - 8-time Gold Glove winner, 4-time All-Star, 393 HRs Billy Wagner - 422 saves is 2nd among LHPs, career ERA of 2.31, career WHIP of 0.998 Also in this class - Luis Castillo, Mike Hampton, Chan Ho Park, Mike Sweeney, Jason Kendall 2017 Vladimir Guerrero - Find it hard to believe he won't get in on the first ballot, but something tells me that's what happens, because Hall voters are morons. Ivan Rodriguez - In many ways the "other" great catcher of Piazza's era. Probably gets in but not on first ballot. Manny Ramirez - Worthy numbers, but multiple positive PED tests probably keep him out. Jorge Posada - MFY hacks will make a push for him, but destined for the Hall of Very Good Also in this class - Mike Cameron, Pat Burrell, Magglio Ordonez, Edgar Renteria, Jason Varitek 2018 Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy. Chipper Jones - Also probably first-ballot guy. Omar Vizquel - Defensive wizard, won 11 Gold Gloves, but also 2,877 hits, 404 SBs and 1,445 runs scored. Most games played at SS in history at 2,709. Andruw Jones - 10 Gold Gloves, 5-time All-Star. Johnny Damon - 2,769 hits, 408 SBs, 2004 World Series star. Scott Rolen - 8 Gold Gloves, 7-time All-Star. 316 HRs, 1,287 RBI Jamie Moyer - The Pitcher That Never Got Old. 269 wins in 25 seasons. Also in this class - Jason Isringhausen, Livan Hernandez, Chris Carpenter, Carlos Lee, Hideki Matsui, Kerry Wood 2019 Mariano Rivera - Will test just how much love closers have from Hall voters. Can a closer break 90%? Roy Halladay - The workhorse of his generation who should make it in. Andy Pettitte - 256 wins in 18 seasons, most postseason wins. Todd Helton - Great 1B but how much of that was Coors? Also in this class - Lance Berkman, Darren Oliver, Roy Oswalt, Michael Young 2020 Derek Jeter - Boston writers may keep him from Seaver's record. Paul Konerko - 439 HRs, 1,412 RBI Alfonso Soriano - 412 HRs, 289 SBs Also in this class (so far) Kevin Youkilis

Zvon Jan 06 2015 01:57 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Centerfield wrote: Lots of strange things going on: 1. Clemens gets four more votes than Bonds. 2. Someone voted for Darin Erstad. 3. 4 people voted for Troy Percival. Once you do something as stupid as voting for Darin Erstad or Troy Percival, your right to vote should be revoked. Dumb system. Let me take that back, dumb writers. If I were the Mets, I'd retire Piazza's number this year anyway. And as part of the ceremony, I'd take select quotes from Marty Noble and illustrate the kind of idiots that are keeping Mike out of the HOF. Ugh. Disgraceful. I like the retired # idea.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 06 2015 01:57 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

AWL CLASS DAT PIAZZA Mike Piazza ?@mikepiazza31 15m15 minutes ago Sincere Congrats to #HOF2015 class! An Amazing Class! Special Thanks To the Voters!! Very Emotional Thank You to All Fans for the Support.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 02:02 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Valadius wrote: Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy. Sosa had 609 and got what, 6% of the vote?

Gwreck Jan 06 2015 02:16 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: Valadius wrote: Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy. Sosa had 609 and got what, 6% of the vote? Jim Thome career WAR 72.9 (9th all time for first basemen) Sosa career WAR 58.4 (outside the top 20 for right fielders) They're not anywhere close to the same player, before any other nonsense comes in about steroids.

themetfairy Jan 06 2015 02:17 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out.

Valadius Jan 06 2015 02:18 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Worth noting... self-appointed baseball pope Bob Costas was making the case for raising the number of ballot selections from 10 to 12 or 15 on MLB Network just now.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 02:32 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Gwreck wrote: Ceetar wrote: Valadius wrote: Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy. Sosa had 609 and got what, 6% of the vote? Jim Thome career WAR 72.9 (9th all time for first basemen) Sosa career WAR 58.4 (outside the top 20 for right fielders) They're not anywhere close to the same player, before any other nonsense comes in about steroids. I dunno, that's 58-73 isn't a huge difference for a stat that's not a precision stat. I get positional adjustments and all that, Thome's a better player, not sure I see him as a shoe-in though, nor based solely on the '612 HR'

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2015 02:33 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

themetfairy wrote: I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out. I've seen a tin foil theory put forth that his faith and politics actually may have something to do with people who do not share his political or religious beliefs not voting for him.

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2015 02:35 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Valadius wrote: Worth noting... self-appointed baseball pope Bob Costas was making the case for raising the number of ballot selections from 10 to 12 or 15 on MLB Network just now. That might hurt more than it would help. While I disagree that everyone should hit the 10 max, I'd wager a lot more people vote for less than 5 a year than those that do 8-10 a year.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 02:36 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

SteveJRogers wrote: themetfairy wrote: I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out. I've seen a tin foil theory put forth that his faith and politics actually may have something to do with people who do not share his political or religious beliefs not voting for him. 'character clause' means "hey, I don't like you." but the book came out after the first vote. In fact, I imagine the publishers/agent figured he'd get in and it'd be great for sales since he'd be in the news and all that. But there were actually writers who said things like "I want to see if he admits to PEDs in the book" and left him off. (Heyman I believe)

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 06 2015 02:49 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The book was a no-win for Piazza even if it wasn't a jocky piece of garbage. Deny roids and look like a liar or admit it and face that music. Me personally? I think he was the juiciest. But I'd still vote for him noting his importance to the game and domination in the inflated era. Him and Bonds and Clemens, dammit. This idiotic stunt the writers pulled a year ago continues to disgrace the institution.

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2015 02:51 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: themetfairy wrote: I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out. I've seen a tin foil theory put forth that his faith and politics actually may have something to do with people who do not share his political or religious beliefs not voting for him. 'character clause' means "hey, I don't like you." but the book came out after the first vote. In fact, I imagine the publishers/agent figured he'd get in and it'd be great for sales since he'd be in the news and all that. But there were actually writers who said things like "I want to see if he admits to PEDs in the book" and left him off. (Heyman I believe) And that probably still didn't change a lot of voter's minds! I'd imagine they see his OTC andro use and conger up visions of Piazza using it to cover up the injection roids ala McGwire. FWIW, I think a lot of Schilling's lack of votes actually do come from him being outspoken on topics that go counter to what is popular among members of the media. It isn't that outlandish to think that, where unless the stats are just so overwhelming that it does look petty to use someone's attitude and demeanor against them (Carlton, Murray) that they'll use that as a reason privately and whatever "ah I just don't see him as a true HALL OF FAMER" excuse publicly.

themetfairy Jan 06 2015 03:10 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The book indeed came out after last year's idiotic vote, based on the assumption that he would be entering the HOF last year. But I think his constant complaining (including about beloved icons such as Vin Scully and Tommy Lasorda) will haunt him in future votes. I don't think that it has anything to do with politics or his faith, but I do think that he did his image a disservice.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 03:17 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Also when he showed up the the Last Game At Shea he didn't talk to Murray Chass about bacne so..

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2015 03:17 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Why would writers not vote for him because of his politics or his faith? I know he's a devout Catholic. I don't see why that would be controversial. Is anyone afraid that he would be a pawn of the pope at the annual Cooperstown gatherings? And what are his politics anyway? Republican, I guess? I doubt he'd be the first, or even the two hundredth, Republican in the Hall.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 03:37 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Why would writers not vote for him because of his politics or his faith? I know he's a devout Catholic. I don't see why that would be controversial. Is anyone afraid that he would be a pawn of the pope at the annual Cooperstown gatherings? And what are his politics anyway? Republican, I guess? I doubt he'd be the first, or even the two hundredth, Republican in the Hall. Because people throw hissy fits and literally kill people over politics and faith? I don't know that that's the case with Piazza who seems to fit all the right molds, but it could certainly be the case with others. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if there are writers who try their hardest not to vote for black guys. This isn't some pinnacle of humanity inducting humans into some pillar of humanity, they're just people picking great players.

Frayed Knot Jan 06 2015 03:38 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I don't know that perceived personal likes or dislikes enter into things as much as is often assumed. Non-votes, even the ones you may not agree with, usually have more logical explanations. - non 1st-ballot worthy. I personally despise this reasoning, and it no longer applies to MP here, but we all know it goes on. - writer disagrees that he's HoF worthy. In Piazza's case I'm sure some will make the argument that he wasn't a complete enough player - others more worthy of vote and he ran out of choices. We all know about the log-jam that has cropped up over the last few years due to several factors. It seems like that's going to lessen in the near future and if all that happens is that some get in on their 4th year of eligibility rather than their 1st or 2nd it won't be the end of the world - others more worthy and writer self-limits to even fewer than ten. Noble this year falls into this one as the idea of more than two at a time is apparently too crass for his tastes - PED suspicion. Some are going to ignore this, some are going to apply it to the worst cheaters only, and others are using the topic to deny anyone where there was even a hint of a rumor

Vic Sage Jan 06 2015 03:42 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

i think we're over-complicating this issue. Some (enough) writers have already demonstrated (and specifically articulated) their objection to voting for anybody with PED taint, even if its only based on here-say, rumor and innuendo. Whether enough of them get over it (with regard to Piazza and Bagwell at least) remains to be seen, but with regards to those players who either admitted it, or failed a test, or both, i don't think they'll ever vote them in and will instead leave it to the veteran's committee to sort it out. I think that was the basis for cutting the eligibility period from 15 years to 10 years, so guys like McGwire, Bonds and Clemens will fall off the ballot sooner rather than later. Even if a writer wants to use the "character" clause to keep out the roiders, they should still use the same journalistic standards for determining who fits that definition that they would be obligated to use if they were to file a story accusing such players. It can't be just based on rumor or a "feeling", any more than it could if they were going to publish such an assertion and then be liable for defamation.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 03:48 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Vic Sage wrote: Even if a writer wants to use the "character" clause to keep out the roiders, they should still use the same journalistic standards for determining who fits that definition that they would be obligated to use if they were to file a story accusing such players. It can't be just based on rumor or a "feeling", any more than it could if they were going to publish such an assertion and then be liable for defamation. yes, they SHOULD use the same journalistic standards they supposedly abide by. Doesn't mean they agree with that, or that they do. Since writers have flat-out said "It feels like he used" as justification, they clearly don't.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2015 03:58 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: This isn't some pinnacle of humanity inducting humans into some pillar of humanity, they're just people picking great players. I just think it's ridiculous to assert that someone would have trouble being selected because they're Catholic or Republican.

Valadius Jan 06 2015 04:18 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I don't know of any objection to Piazza's personal views. The only person on the ballot who comes to mind with objectionable personal views/non-baseball life is Schilling, what with costing the taxpayers of Rhode Island a boatload on his failed video game venture and his politics, but he should get in by 2019.

Ceetar Jan 06 2015 05:37 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Ceetar wrote: This isn't some pinnacle of humanity inducting humans into some pillar of humanity, they're just people picking great players. I just think it's ridiculous to assert that someone would have trouble being selected because they're Catholic or Republican. Probably not him specifically, but it'd be more about something he said or did rather than his specific ideology. I don't know what specific thing SJR was referring to. Of course, that's because Piazza's in the majority. It's almost definitely happened to other guys that we haven't noticed, especially along the fringes. Delgado caught some flak once upon a time for a political stance he took, rather quietly, but it's only a couple of votes more that would've kept him on the ballot. Who else? What happens when a gay player becomes known? What happens if say Ken Griffey Jr comes out before next year? The voters hardly seem to be voting with any sort of integrity, and I only see it getting worse.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 06 2015 05:55 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I think it's a lot less likely that specific, strong views on abortion or euthanasia or whether the Bartman game was a government-perpetrated hoax will keep ANY player out than, say, his being an asshole to journos (or to teammates, if said assholiness is so intense that they've complained loudly enough to beat writers) would.

Frayed Knot Jan 06 2015 06:03 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I heard (longtime Boston writer) Dan Shaughnessy recently talking about how he's gone overboard at times to vote For guys that he personally disliked (Jim Rice, Curt Schilliing) just so it couldn't be said that he was voting against them for personal reasons. In Piazza's case, I doubt there are more than a handful of writers who even read his book much less cared about it enough to base their votes on it.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 06:15 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: SteveJRogers wrote: themetfairy wrote: I blame Long Shot. The book made him look like a petulant child, and probably cost him enough votes to keep him out. I've seen a tin foil theory put forth that his faith and politics actually may have something to do with people who do not share his political or religious beliefs not voting for him. 'character clause' means "hey, I don't like you." I disagree with that. I also think that Schilling's political religious views have virtually nothing to do with his non-election. (1) They weren't particularly apparent until after his retirement, and fews of the electorate could give two figs about his post-career life. (2) Baseball is teeming with Christian Republicans. Piazza's book? Probably didn't do him any favors, but it probably didn't keep him out either. I mean, it's come out since last year's election, and his vote total has climbed from 62.2% to 69.9%

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2015 06:37 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: This isn't some pinnacle of humanity inducting humans into some pillar of humanity, they're just people picking great players. I just think it's ridiculous to assert that someone would have trouble being selected because they're Catholic or Republican. Probably not him specifically, but it'd be more about something he said or did rather than his specific ideology. I don't know what specific thing SJR was referring to. Of course, that's because Piazza's in the majority. It's almost definitely happened to other guys that we haven't noticed, especially along the fringes. Delgado caught some flak once upon a time for a political stance he took, rather quietly, but it's only a couple of votes more that would've kept him on the ballot. Who else? What happens when a gay player becomes known? What happens if say Ken Griffey Jr comes out before next year? The voters hardly seem to be voting with any sort of integrity, and I only see it getting worse. It wasn't my theory, so I don't know if it is anything beyond a theory put forth by a guy too bitter about the state of journalism in this country being too liberal leaning for his taste.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 07:53 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

You know, if someone should come with evidence before refusing to vote for a player over steroids, shouldn't we come with evidence before making assumptions of anti-Catholic or anti-Christian bias? How goofy. Baselessly assuming somebody has a malicious and bigoted motive for their actions really has no place in the discussion. Conflating the BBWAA and ISIS is beyond the pale of any logical sense. Let's not poison the well here.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2015 08:27 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

enough with the religion and politics, Val's post raises points, the bold below is mine as i see less legit candidates over the next few years which could be a good thing for the 10-12 legit guys still on the ballot. 2020 has no legit candidates, but i guess someone could still retire before next season starts? Beltran? Ichiro? Also, there are NO legit pitchers until 2019, that has to help Schilling/Mussina Worth laying out the upcoming contenders: 2016 Ken Griffey, Jr. - Will hit a percentage somewhere near Seaver. Trevor Hoffman - All-time saves leader at time of retirement, with 601. Jim Edmonds - 8-time Gold Glove winner, 4-time All-Star, 393 HRs Billy Wagner - 422 saves is 2nd among LHPs, career ERA of 2.31, career WHIP of 0.998 Also in this class - Luis Castillo, Mike Hampton, Chan Ho Park, Mike Sweeney, Jason Kendall 2017 Vladimir Guerrero - Find it hard to believe he won't get in on the first ballot, but something tells me that's what happens, because Hall voters are morons. Ivan Rodriguez - In many ways the "other" great catcher of Piazza's era. Probably gets in but not on first ballot. Manny Ramirez - Worthy numbers, but multiple positive PED tests probably keep him out. Jorge Posada - MFY hacks will make a push for him, but destined for the Hall of Very Good Also in this class - Mike Cameron, Pat Burrell, Magglio Ordonez, Edgar Renteria, Jason Varitek 2018 Jim Thome - 612 HRs. Should be first-ballot guy. Chipper Jones - Also probably first-ballot guy. Omar Vizquel - Defensive wizard, won 11 Gold Gloves, but also 2,877 hits, 404 SBs and 1,445 runs scored. Most games played at SS in history at 2,709. Andruw Jones - 10 Gold Gloves, 5-time All-Star. Johnny Damon - 2,769 hits, 408 SBs, 2004 World Series star. Scott Rolen - 8 Gold Gloves, 7-time All-Star. 316 HRs, 1,287 RBI Jamie Moyer - The Pitcher That Never Got Old. 269 wins in 25 seasons. Also in this class - Jason Isringhausen, Livan Hernandez, Chris Carpenter, Carlos Lee, Hideki Matsui, Kerry Wood 2019 Mariano Rivera - Will test just how much love closers have from Hall voters. Can a closer break 90%? Roy Halladay - The workhorse of his generation who should make it in. Andy Pettitte - 256 wins in 18 seasons, most postseason wins. Todd Helton - Great 1B but how much of that was Coors? Also in this class - Lance Berkman, Darren Oliver, Roy Oswalt, Michael Young 2020 Derek Jeter - Boston writers may keep him from Seaver's record. Paul Konerko - 439 HRs, 1,412 RBI Alfonso Soriano - 412 HRs, 289 SBs Also in this class (so far) Kevin Youkilis

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 09:10 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Other 2020 Balloteers Josh Becket Paul Konerko Adam Dunn Bobby Abreu Alfonso Soriano Matt Treanor Octavio Dotel JJ Putz Possibly Torii Hunter Jason Giambi Johnny Damon Ichiro Suzuki

G-Fafif Jan 06 2015 09:23 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Long Shot came out in hardcover a month after the 2013 vote, the first one that didn't go Piazza's way. Its failure to be a "smoking gun" seems to gnaw at some of the voters who still express disappointment that he didn't confirm their "suspicions," Claire Smith and Steve Marcus, to name two such killjoys. ("Quote marks" are fun to use.) At a touch under 70%, Mike can only be passed over for so long. Next year in Cooperstown! For this year, congratulations to Pedro, who truly graced the black, blue and orange if not quite effectively enough long enough healthily enough. With most of the file footage portraying him pitching for the Red Sox, his four years as a Met seem, like Michigan to Simon & Garfunkel, a dream to me now. BTW, I was the Delgado voter in our little poll, mostly out of "this guy is too good to fall off the ballot" instinct. Not enough real voters felt that way, alas.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2015 09:39 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

G-Fafif wrote: Long Shot came out in hardcover a month after the 2013 vote, the first one that didn't go Piazza's way. You look stupid now, Edgy.

Frayed Knot Jan 07 2015 07:11 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

And in case one is wondering about the impact of perception and image on fans and writers, check out the (small) differences in 162 game/avgs between two 20 year career players with near identical plate appearances (12,504 vs 12,602). [table:184sajbz][tr:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]PA[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]AB[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]H[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]2B[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]3B[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]HR[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]SB[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]CS[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]BB[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]K[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]BA[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]OBA[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]SLG[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]OPS+[/td:184sajbz][/tr:184sajbz] [tr:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]711[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]618[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]174[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]38[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]3[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]17[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]24[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]7[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]66[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]100[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz].281[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz].363[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz].433[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]112[/td:184sajbz][/tr:184sajbz] [tr:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]743[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]660[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]204[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]32[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]4[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]15[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]21[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]6[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]64[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]109[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz].310[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz].377[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz].440[/td:184sajbz][td:184sajbz]115[/td:184sajbz][/tr:184sajbz][/table:184sajbz] One, it turns out, had a career which inspires calls for induction by unanimous acclimation and/or a waiving of the five-year waiting period. The other needed three elections to get in, peaked at a low-80's pct approval, and will continue to be dismissed as "a compiler" in certain circles.

Ceetar Jan 07 2015 07:39 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Biggio and Jeter I presume?

SteveJRogers Jan 07 2015 07:42 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Frayed Knot wrote: And in case one is wondering about the impact of perception and image on fans and writers, check out the (small) differences in 162 game/avgs between two 20 year career players with near identical plate appearances (12,504 vs 12,602). PA AB H 2B 3B HR SB CS BB K BA OBA SLG OPS+ 711 618 174 38 3 17 24 7 66 100 .281 .363 .433 112 743 660 204 32 4 15 21 6 64 109 .310 .377 .440 115 One, it turns out, had a career which inspires calls for induction by unanimous acclimation and/or a waiving of the five-year waiting period. The other needed three elections to get in, peaked at a low-80's pct approval, and will continue to be dismissed as "a compiler" in certain circles. LOL! Yes but look at the postseason stats! *rolls eyes*

SteveJRogers Jan 07 2015 07:45 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Also don't forget that Jeets probably has much more high profile guilt by association taint through his career than Biggio, despite being Ken Caminiti's teammate.

MFS62 Jan 07 2015 07:48 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

When we're looking for possible motives for not voting for Piazza, I look at 4 of the voters listed above: Heyman Noble Sherman Verducci Haven't at least 3 of them(maybe not Noble) been posted about here over the years for being "anti-Met"? Maybe they would have voted for Mike if he had played for some other team. As Dennis Miller says, "That's my opinion and, I may be wrong". Later

Edgy MD Jan 07 2015 08:05 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I have quibbles with everybody, as individuals, but I tend to think that the quirks of individuals are largely canceled out in the body at large. And the process has, more or less, worked. Four guys got elected --- a relatively large class from a packed ballot. Two of them were far and away the best candidates. One (Biggio) is an excellent candidate that has been gaining momentum. The fourth guy (Smoltz) may or may not be the best of the remaining candidates, but it's certainly not unreasonable to think so. So, you know, too bad for Piazza, but he's still got his pile of money, and a sweet lifestyle to comfort him until next year. I'm kind of hesitant to get behind too many of the calls for reform. I guess what I most don't like is the 5% threshold, eliminating guys from all future ballots. I tend to think a packed ballot like this gets writers to vote no on the likes of Larry Walker and Carlos Delgado and Alan Trammel without a lot of thought. These are candidacies that were probably unlikely to gain momentum anyhow, but it stinks seeing them lost in the shuffle. Yeah, the BBWAA has not built consensus on how to handle the historic legacies of steroid abusers. Neither has MLB. Neither has society. As a body, we can hardly ask them to speak with one voice. But if we 75% can agree, that's OK by me.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 07 2015 08:11 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

MFS62 wrote: When we're looking for possible motives for not voting for Piazza, I look at 4 of the voters listed above: Heyman Noble Sherman Verducci Haven't at least 3 of them(maybe not Noble) been posted about here over the years for being "anti-Met"? Maybe they would have voted for Mike if he had played for some other team. As Dennis Miller says, "That's my opinion and, I may be wrong". Later Yes you frequently post how anti-Met Joel Sherman is, and just as often, it's pointed out how little evidence there is of that. Same with Jon Heyman. Same with Verducci. What all 3 have in common is being PED Suspect Bible Thumpers. Noble is another case entirely, he's one of those like Madden and Shaunessy who trump up their own sense as gatekeepers and seem to believe there's a value in the pace at which worthy guys are allowed entry. I don't think Sherman even revealed his votes publicly this year, other than saying he was voting for Bonds. He did not vote for Piazza last year.

Ceetar Jan 07 2015 08:18 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Sherman's the Post right? They tweeted out all their staff's picks. I don't think they have any particular Mets bias, but there's a little bit of 'pick on the Mets' narrative around the club and lesser writers, national ones in particular who don't have time/energy to dig deeper, tend to jump on the narrative which often has the affect of feeling like it's piling on or bias. Anyway, give the Mets a year or two and we'll be fighting off East Coast Bias type stuff as national guys are lavishing praise on our rotation and pissing off everyone else.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 07 2015 08:25 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Name Votes (Pct.) Jon Heyman's predicted % Randy Johnson 534 (97.3) 96% Pedro Martinez 500 (91.1) 95% John Smoltz 455 (82.9) 73% Craig Biggio 454 (82.7) 75% Mike Piazza 384 (69.9) 70% Jeff Bagwell 306 (55.7) 58% Tim Raines 302 (55) 62% Curt Schilling 215 (39.2) 35% Roger Clemens 206 (37.5) 40% Barry Bonds 202 (36.8) 40% Lee Smith 166 (30.2) 22% Edgar Martinez 148 (27) 20% Alan Trammell 138 (25.1) 19% Mike Mussina 135 (24.6) 36% Jeff Kent 77 (14) 13% Fred McGriff 71 (12.9) 10% Larry Walker 65 (11.8) 7% Gary Sheffield 64 (11.7) 3% Mark McGwire 55 (10) 9% Don Mattingly 50 (9.1) 6% Sammy Sosa 36 (6.6) 4% Nomar Garciaparra 30 (5.5) 1% Carlos Delgado 21 (3.8) 1%

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 07 2015 08:32 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: Sherman's the Post right? They tweeted out all their staff's picks. I don't think they have any particular Mets bias, but there's a little bit of 'pick on the Mets' narrative around the club and lesser writers, national ones in particular who don't have time/energy to dig deeper, tend to jump on the narrative which often has the affect of feeling like it's piling on or bias. Anyway, give the Mets a year or two and we'll be fighting off East Coast Bias type stuff as national guys are lavishing praise on our rotation and pissing off everyone else. NY tabloids pick on all the teams -- the fans, really -- because it's what they do. I'd argue the perception of a national press bias is one shared by fans of every team in every city. But the suggestion that the bias would play out in Hall of Fame voting, particularly where one of them made a point not to reveal votes and all of them voted for 1 Met, is as always out there. I didn't see the Post's reveals. Sherman's column in December made a point of saying he was keeping his ballot a secret so as not to influence the debate beyond his personal convictions. I suppose the Post revealing after the ballots were counted doesn't really violate that.

Edgy MD Jan 07 2015 08:34 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Heyman can be a frustrating figure, but I don't think it's anti-Met bias that makes him so. He sure was a stubborn and zealous warrior in the Armando Wars, though. Verducci hitched his wagon to the myth of the Torre/Jeter-era Yankees, but that too doesn't necessarily equate to anti-Met. Anti-human, maybe, but not necessarily anti-Met. But it's about being provocateurs. Mets management is easy to dump on these days and it's a good target for lazy writers, but that doesn't mean they vote against Piazza or Pedro or Delgado because of their uniform.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2015 10:32 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

This election, a matter of anti-Met bias, or I Am The Law, or general curmudgeonliness? It's the stupid-PED-assumption, stupid.

Edgy MD Jan 07 2015 10:35 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Claire Smith wrote: I have not yet been convinced on several levels. It's delicate, but every decision on each candidate is, and should be. Some candidates are slam dunks. Others need to be weighed over time periods that might not satisfy fans, but have to satisfy the voter that he or she has reached an educated, learned conclusion. I have time. So does Mike. Cy Young wasn't elected right away. A lot of the greats did not get in til after 10 years of eligibility. Firstly, every decision being delicate and "Some candidates are slam dunks" are contradictory positions. Secondly, Cy Young didn't get in because there was a 19th Century Committee and a 20th Century Committee, and neither committee was certain whether Young was fully theirs to consider, and whether they were to consider the whole of his career. It was a failure of process to the extent that it was a failure. But it was the first year of elections, and he was running against every player who ever played the game ever. This is très different. In general, I guess I get the "I don't want to look stupid if something comes up later." But do your own investigation. That's how things come up.

bmfc1 Jan 08 2015 07:29 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

http://www.murraychass.com/?p=8373 Chass again damns Mike Piazza with speculation and rumor but offers no evidence.

Edgy MD Jan 08 2015 07:42 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Well, he has evidence, just not conclusive evidence. Man, Chass's page hits must multiply by a factor of 10 about this time of year.

Vic Sage Jan 08 2015 08:57 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The New York Times mentioned Piazza and steroids in the same story, and that was by far my favorite. On at least two occasions, maybe three, during Piazza’s years with the New York Mets (1998-2005), as a baseball writer and columnist for The New York Times, I wanted to write about Piazza and the possibility that he had used steroids. However, I was told I could not because Piazza hadn’t tested positive for steroids use and hadn’t been named anywhere as a suspected user. An article in the Times Wednesday cited Piazza’s 427 career home runs and .308 batting average and said, “Those are standout numbers. But in an era in which the voting is shadowed by baseball’s entanglement with steroids, Piazza has suffered from the perception, among some writers, that he might have been a user, although no evidence has emerged that he was.” The article was written by Jay Schreiber, who was the editor who said I couldn’t write about Piazza and steroids. Chass's proposed article didn't meet minimal journalistic standards. Where were his facts? His 2 sources? He had nothing but "whispers" and suspicion. So his editor rightly rejected it (Chass should have gone to work at the Post; they have no standards.) Now the Times covers the story -- not about Piazza using steroids, but about the suspicions of writers (like Chass) and how that has effected Piazza's vote -- and Chass misuses this distinction to make some kind of vague point about... what? Hypocrisy? Unfortunate change of view? It's unclear except to the extent that Chass can't see the difference between what the Times said to him and what it's doing now. And that's why he is a shitty journalist and his ability to form rational, reasoned conclusions is far more suspect than Piazza's bacne.

Zvon Jan 08 2015 04:54 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Read what Madden had to say after the votes were in. Maybe I'm wrong, but if he's going to use what some anonymous player said about Piazza using steroids, he's got to name that player. I mean, if a player said something to him and he kept it to himself, and it privately influenced his choices, fine. But if he's going to say that a player told him Mike was using, and publicly make that his excuse for not voting for him, he's should reveal that source so the person can be interviewed by others about the validity of his claim. He's a reporter for chriesake.

Centerfield Jan 09 2015 07:44 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The entire system is broken. In concept, it was a great idea. Let the Hall of Fame be determined by the baseball writers, professionals who covered the game and are in a position to know it the best. Baseball writers were guided by principles of journalism. Presumably they would carry that professionalism across to their voting. But baseball writers fail to uphold this standard. And as the integrity of journalism deteriorated, it got even worse. Writers started creating their own arbitrary distinctions. They let their personal feelings cloud their judgment. And now, they see no shame in making these arbitrary determinations public. They don't vote for certain worthy candidates because they don't believe that he's "first ballot material". They cast votes for unworthy candidates because they liked them, or covered them. And most importantly, they are arbitrarily including or excluding players based upon whispers and unfounded suspicion of steroids. If I were on the board of the HOF, I would be livid that writers are abusing the privilege that has been granted to them. The rules are simple, if a player is eligible, he is to be considered. If his performance warrants induction, the vote should be in favor. It doesn't matter if it's his first time on the ballot or not. I said it back when Rickey Henderson was up for induction and didn't get a unanimous approval. If a writer cannot recognize that Rickey Henderson is a Hall of Famer, that person has no business voting. I would love to see the HOF set up a steering committee, where writers are called in to defend egregious ballots. But it will never happen. And so the Hall of Fame will remain what it is...meaningless. Just a nice museum to go see old baseball shit.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2015 08:50 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

While individual writers indeed have their arbitrary standards, aren't these largely canceled out in the great body of the electorate. I mean, didn't we get a meaningful, valid and defensible outcome, even if the process, and the process of some guy's thinking, aired in social media, isn't always pretty? Is the return of these four guys as a result of the process any less valid and authentic than what was returned in 2005, 1995, 1985, or 1975?

Edgy MD Jan 09 2015 08:54 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I mean, in the first year of voting, Babe Ruth received votes on but 95.1% of the ballots, so it's not as if things are necessarily and definitively deteriorating.

Ceetar Jan 09 2015 09:11 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: I mean, in the first year of voting, Babe Ruth received votes on but 95.1% of the ballots, so it's not as if things are necessarily and definitively deteriorating. It's that they were iffy to begin with and that the 'integrity' of journalism maybe isn't what it was purported to be. The digital age is exposing a lot of assumptions like that to be mostly BS. I don't think the system is broken so much as could be so so much better. the simple part is to change to a yes/no system of voting, but also to cull the voting class to people actually covering baseball. Writers no longer far and above the most likely people to have seen and covered all the players either, but the ones that don't actually cover baseball anymore, even if they covered all the of the players on the ballot, are too far removed to need a vote. Yes, we got 4 players worth celebrating. For the most part the system elects HoFers and that's what it's intended to do, but.. their is something valuable about honoring the guys on time. It's a game, and a museum, and entertainment. While it's not going to be lesser to celebrate Piazza as a Hall of Famer next year, that's three years we haven't really had that opportunity. I'm sure it's part of the reason the Mets are waiting to retire his number. It's obviously going to happen, and while it wouldn't be bad to do it separate from celebrating his entry into the Hall, it's a nice tie-in to the overall game of baseball and what not. It's a game and fun, but think about how much fun it would've been doing the ASG if we got to hold up Piazza as a HoFer as well?

Gwreck Jan 09 2015 11:29 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Quick fix: 1. No more anonymous ballots. You want to vote for Darin Erstad, you have to do it publicly. There will still be people who do that but it'll be reduced if they have to own up to it. 2. No more 10-player limit. You have to vote "yes" or "no" to each player on the ballot.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2015 11:50 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I'm not really sure what that fixes. Or if there is consensus on what's broken. I mean, the people on social media I've read tend to be furious, but all furious about different things. One guy was in a pique because Eddie Guardado got ignored.

Nymr83 Jan 09 2015 11:54 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I agree the ballot shouldn't be anonymous - we aren't voting for president here. if you arent willing to publish and defend your vote then you shouldn't have one. They need to change the structure of who votes as well: -I'd limit the writers to those whose full time job is covering baseball in some capacity, with a rule that you lose the ballot 5 years after that is no longer your job. They've already shortened the time on the ballot to ten years for players so i dont see an issue with the older players getting shafted by this rule, and there is always the veterans committee. -they need more voters than just writers, but i'm not sure who this should be

Ceetar Jan 09 2015 12:02 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Nymr83 wrote: -they need more voters than just writers, but i'm not sure who this should be Jesse Spector suggested fan vote (since, you know, we're the ones that are supposed to be wanting to celebrate these guys?) via paper ballots when you go there or by request. Then that fan vote counts for 1 total vote. minor impact but meaningful imo.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2015 01:07 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Nymr83 wrote: -they need more voters than just writers, but i'm not sure who this should be That's the tough part. That there are writers who barely cover baseball anymore who do vote while others who know as much baseball as anyone -- like Gary Cohen and Bob Costas just to pick two -- can't is a problem. But at least by designating the BBWAA as the sole arbiter, and by them requiring a minimum of ten years in it, you at least establish a set of criteria that needs to be earned before a ballot is granted. By expanding it to, say, electronic media you start to run into the question not only of who gets a ballot but of who decides who gets a ballot. Being inclusive all sounds good until every geek at ESPN, who thinks they know the sport (whenever they're not mocking it that is) because they once played Fantasy and because they make wisecracks over highlights a couple days a week, is suddenly demanding a right to vote for the HoF.

Ceetar Jan 09 2015 01:11 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

well, they've already expanded it to electronic media. When these guys get a vote (oh, and most of them don't get a vote until AFTER Bonds and Clemens fall off the ballot due to the time on the ballot rule change, isn't that awfully convenient?) it's already gonna start to swing things a bit. But I'd have to think it should be limited to guys that focus on baseball, and on the games themselves not just 'Sportscenter' type coverage. So like the guys that do the MLB Live Look Ins every night type thing.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2015 01:16 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

It's just that MLBAA is a body that controls for it's membership. And as a professional organization, you don't join just to get a vote. So who is and isn't in the electorate is clear. Nobody can get a vote just because he or she thinks he or she has a valid opinion. I'm just not clear at how this election diminishes the Hall.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2015 01:18 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Ceetar wrote: well, they've already expanded it to electronic media. Writers via electronic media, yes, but not yet anyone outside the writing community which eliminates the informed Costas, Olbemann, BB2N types. Hell, it eliminates Vin Scully. But, again, the problem comes with once you step over that line to non-writers how do you keep it from the half-wits?

Rockin' Doc Jan 09 2015 02:09 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: well, they've already expanded it to electronic media. Writers via electronic media, yes, but not yet anyone outside the writing community which eliminates the informed Costas, Olbemann, BB2N types. Hell, it eliminates Vin Scully. But, again, the problem comes with once you step over that line to non-writers how do you keep it from the half-wits? Unfortunately, being a member of the BBWAA does not prevent one from being a half-wit. As you point out, there are many people who cannot vote, that are more knowledgeable about the game’s history and a player's place in that history, than many of the writers actually casting ballots.

Nymr83 Jan 09 2015 02:50 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

I would add broadcasters for sure, make the rule "10 years as a broadcaster whose primary job is to cover baseball (not sports in general)" or something like that. i'd also want to include living hall of famers to get that side of it in there.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2015 02:58 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

It may seem more fair from the broadcasters' point of view, but I don't see how that's going to mean less knuckleheadedness or produce outcomes that are met with more universal acclaim. I don't even think there is a broadcasters' association.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 09 2015 03:12 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

And for every Gary Cohen or Bob Costas or Vin Scully out there, there are at least eight or ten idiots who happen to have a job sitting behind a microphone.

Ceetar Jan 09 2015 03:13 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And for every Gary Cohen or Bob Costas or Vin Scully out there, there are at least eight or ten idiots who happen to have a job sitting behind a microphone.

Nymr83 Jan 09 2015 04:29 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And for every Gary Cohen or Bob Costas or Vin Scully out there, there are at least eight or ten idiots who happen to have a job sitting behind a microphone. there are blockheads everywhere, but i think it wouldbe better to expand the types of voters and to cut out the guys who either 1) have not covered baseball in years or 2) wont publicize their ballot

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2015 05:26 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Edgy MD wrote: I'm just not clear at how this election diminishes the Hall. It doesn't -- in fact it seems to do the opposite IMO -- except for those who think that anyone who doesn't vote for their choices are idiots - and there seems to be a lot of that right now. This anger has been building up for a couple of years now and it seems to be due to several factors. - obviously the steroid era has thrown a wrench into the works. the backlog now contains a half-dozen or more guys who aren't being cleared in either direction; they're not getting voted in but are still getting enough votes to not get dropped. - I think we're at a conjunction where old-timey writers are butting heads with younger analytic-types with neither camp holding a majority and both camps being very pro some guys and anti others (call them the JackMorrites vs the Tim Rainesians). Again this contributes to a backlog as the faves of each group are getting neither enough support to go over the top nor fall off the back. - There's been five 1st-ballot electees in the past two classes. I haven't researched that but I'll bet that's unusual at best and maybe a first overall. Those votes both take away from the borderline guys like Piazza or Raines and, when combined with the backlog, create situations where writers are opting not to vote for the no-brainers in order to give their votes to the ones whom they think need the support. So it's not like 9% of the voters truly thought that Pedro didn't deserve election (and therefore deserve a flogging and/or their voting privileges revoked) it's that they chose to cast those votes elsewhere. One partial solution I heard to this (oddly, perhaps, from Curt Schilling) is that any 1st ballot votes should not count against the ten. It might be a compromise between those favoring unlimited voting (which could cheapen each individual vote) and at the same time relieve temporarily crowded ballots due to the size or strength of that year's incoming class. All that said, I've heard enough sober commentary from inside the BBWAA (reasonable guys like Richard Justice, Tim Kurkjian, Buster Olney) that contends that the system needs some degree of reform with their main complaint seeming to be the lifetime privileges still retained by those who no longer follow the sport professionally and maybe not at all. Justice in particular suggested that the process would be better if the voting body were reduced by maybe 1/3

Edgy MD Jan 09 2015 06:32 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

My only problem is that, if the result turned out more or less fine but the fan base is miserable and bitter and speaking with exclamation points, it only gives the damned-no-matter-what-they-do writers less motivation to bring gravity to their vote, and instead turn into intractable old stinkers like Murray Chass. On another note, with five starting pitchers elected in two years, it could be another five or more until another one gets the call, unless the electorate comes around on Mussina, Schilling, or Clemens.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 10 2015 05:05 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

The most recent Galling Thing I Learned About The Voting Process (c) is that ten years of membership is what's required... NOT actual, up-close baseball coverage. Theoretically, you could have a guy who worked the Reds beat for a year 30 years ago, was admitted to the BBWAA, and continued to pay dues for a decade (after getting moved to, say, horse racing, or the Lifestyle session)... and casts a vote for Lee Smith, Erstad, and a write-in for Jack Morris.

Gwreck Jan 10 2015 10:54 PM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

Frayed Knot wrote: - There's been five 1st-ballot electees in the past two classes. I haven't researched that but I'll bet that's unusual at best and maybe a first overall. It is the first time there has been 5 in two years combined. But having a large number of worthy candidates becoming eligible in a short period of time is not unusual: 1989 ballot debuts: Bench and Yastrzemski (both elected) plus Jenkins and Perry 1990 ballot debuts: Palmer and Morgan (both elected) 1991 ballot debuts: Carew (elected) and Fingers; Jenkins and Perry both get in this year 1992 ballot debuts: Seaver (elected), plus Fingers gets in

Edgy MD Jan 11 2015 05:01 AM Re: Is this Piazza's year?

But I think that's the point. The electorate was less restrained this time, not more.