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CPF WotS, Rd. : Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

Robin

7 votes

Nightwing

5 votes

Edgy MD Nov 26 2014 02:50 PM

Holy split personality, Batman! Our second one-character/two-persona matchup isn't as clear-cut as the last one, pitting young Dick Grayson against younger Dick Grayson in the Bat-Family Bracket of the DC/Indie Conference. May the better ward win. [fimg=170]http://th02.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2012/180/e/7/robin__dick_grayson_by_qbatmanp-d55e5k0.jpg[/fimg] [fimg=250]http://th01.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2010/221/3/0/Nightwing_movie_by_qBATMANp.jpg[/fimg] Name: Robin Name: Nightwing AKA: Dick Grayson, The Boy Wonder, Nightwing AKA: Dick Grayson, The Boy Wonder, Robin, briefly served as Batman Creator(s): Bob Kane, Bill Finger, Jerry Robinson Creator(s): Edmond Hamilton, Curt Swan Origin: Unknown (his family lived on the road) Origin: Unknown (his family lived on the road) Base of Operations: Gotham City, NJ Base of Operations: Blüdhaven, NJ Teams: Justice League, Teen Titans Teams: Justice League, Teen Titans Signature Lines: "Bruce, I gotta tell ya, this job could have been fun for you sometimes if you ever let it." Signature Lines: "When you die in Blüdhaven -- going to Hell is considered a promotion." Arch-Enemy: Slade Arch-Enemy: Blockbuster Paramour(s): Lori Elton, Batgirl Barbara Gordon Paramour Starfire, Raya Vestri, Barbara Jordan Once Played By: Burt Ward Once Played By: Danny Shepherd Could Have Been Played By: Leonardo DiCaprio Could Have Been Played By: Joseph Gordon-Levitt Song I Think Of: "Fly, Robin, Fly Song I Think Of: "On the Wings of a Nightengale Powers: Superior acrobat and arialist, outstanding athlete. Escapism? He makes Houdini look silly. He's of course a skilled detective and tactician. Highly skilled hand-to-hand combatant who uses his acrobatic skills to do combined moves with his fighting partner (usually Batguy). Handy with Batman's arsenal of high-tech crimefighting equipment. Treads lightly. Powers: Pretty much a more mature version of the same package, but relies a little less on tech, and a little more on fighting and tactics. A polished polyglot. Also has hacking skillz. Still a master of stealth. Maybe even moreso. Weaknesses: He's super-power-less. Flesh and blood. Plus, you know, he's a kid in a man's world, so he can be over-powered easily enough if the numbers are against him and the element of surprise is spent. Weaknesses: Still quite mortal, if more filled out. Adult Dick for a time lacked good leadership-communication skills, having served as a VERY second banana under a taciturn leader who led by the power of his legendary persona. Dick has mostly improved in this area.

MFS62 Nov 26 2014 03:04 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

And he wants to show us how mature he got by making an enemy of a video store? Sorry. Fly, Robin, fly. But a split personality is good when you're trying to multi-task. Later

Benjamin Grimm Nov 26 2014 03:07 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

I'll take the older version, leader of the Teen Titans, (or, later, simply the Titans) over the more iconic sidekick.

Edgy MD Nov 26 2014 03:10 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

If Robin can cross over to the Marvel universe, absorb a haymaker from The Thing, and live to tell about it, he's OK by me. I've got to go with Robindick. He was a personal role model.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 26 2014 03:36 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

In a shameless bid to get Fman99 to vote for Nightwing, I'm posting a picture of his sexy orange alien girlfriend, Starfire:

Fman99 Nov 26 2014 03:59 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

There, I feel better now.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 26 2014 05:17 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

Same character, no timeline difference, no fundamental character shift? Hell, same team membership, more or less? Are we planning to go with a young Aquaman vs. old Aquaman, too? Thing at 39 vs. Thing at 35? Null vote. Advance who you will.

SteveJRogers Nov 26 2014 06:25 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Same character, no timeline difference, no fundamental character shift? Hell, same team membership, more or less? Are we planning to go with a young Aquaman vs. old Aquaman, too? Thing at 39 vs. Thing at 35? Null vote. Advance who you will. No, not really. The Dick Grayson Robin either quit Batman's side on his own, or was flat out fired by Bruce Wayne depending on which side of Crisis on Infinite Earths you're on (the New52 Nightwing still keeps the "rift between Dick and Bruce" story pushing Nightwing). Grayson had to evolve into his own identity and shed the mantle of "Batman, Jr" and grow up as a person, and part of that was becoming the Nightwing character. The Titans of Nightwing are VASTLY different than the Titans of Robin. Well for one, the Robin era was written by a guy named Bob Haney, who earned the nickname "Zany" for some of the strange stories he spun, so much so that his Batman Team-Up stories in Brave & The Bold would get their own "Earth" designation and are not considered part of Batman's Silver and Bronze Age proper continuity (this was because of a mixup done in one issue where Batman teamed with another Earth's hero for no apparent reason). The Teen Titans Nightwing would captain (yes as Robin first for a few years) was a much different book (was even relaunched a few years after the Haney penned title had been axed), and therefore group, hell even included three brand new characters, and one other one borrowed from a Silver Age concept, The Doom Patrol along side four of the original five (Aqualad was not part of the new lineup). Now being written by Marv Wolfman (collaborating with artist George Perez for much of this definitive run) the book would take a much sharper tone towards more serious and less adolescent orientated stories (read about The Judas Contract...then check the character ages of Terra and Deathstroke). The Grayson here was presented as someone who suddenly realized he needed to grow up and take a direction, and so he did. In fact he'd rarely show up in Batman or Detective for most of the 1980s and early 1990s (partially due to Wolfman's insistence that he was now a Titans character, not a Batman one, in fact, Wolfman and Perez should get the creator credits. Your credits are for Superman's Kandor adventures in a Silver Age story). It wasn't until the end of the original Titans run that Grayson returned to the Batman Family, and he'd be thrust into taking care of the Batman mantle until Bruce was fully healed from the Knightfall/Knightsquest/Knightsend saga. Realizing that he just wasn't ready for the big cape & cowl and was no longer a Titan, he again struck out to continue to forge his own identity and legacy in Bludhaven, and finally his very own solo title (besides Titans, Robin had solo adventures in All-Star Comics and during the 1970s backups in various Bat-titles such as Batman Family when Grayson was seen as a college student, but this was his first solo book). So, all that being said, YES, there is a huge difference in the Dick Grayson personas of Robin and Nightwing, so this matchup is justified and warranted.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 26 2014 07:33 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

So. Obvious. ...

Vic Sage Nov 26 2014 08:55 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

preach it, Ed.

Zvon Nov 26 2014 09:04 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

This was a tough one. My son is a big Nightwing fan so I came to know that Grayson, and I liked what I read. But I grew up with Robin in his kelly green undies. He's gotta get my vote.

Nymr83 Nov 26 2014 10:17 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

All the stuff that steve says doesnt change the fact that he is the same exact person, the fact that he underwent character growth when he became nightwing shouldnt make this a vote between them

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 26 2014 10:32 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

Same character, no timeline difference, no fundamental character shift? Hell, same team membership, more or less? Are we planning to go with a young Aquaman vs. old Aquaman, too? Thing at 39 vs. Thing at 35? Null vote. Advance who you will. No, not really. The Dick Grayson Robin either quit Batman's side on his own, or was flat out fired by Bruce Wayne depending on which side of Crisis on Infinite Earths you're on (the New52 Nightwing still keeps the "rift between Dick and Bruce" story pushing Nightwing). Grayson had to evolve into his own identity and shed the mantle of "Batman, Jr" and grow up as a person, and part of that was becoming the Nightwing character. The Titans of Nightwing are VASTLY different than the Titans of Robin. Well for one, the Robin era was written by a guy named Bob Haney, who earned the nickname "Zany" for some of the strange stories he spun, so much so that his Batman Team-Up stories in Brave & The Bold would get their own "Earth" designation and are not considered part of Batman's Silver and Bronze Age proper continuity (this was because of a mixup done in one issue where Batman teamed with another Earth's hero for no apparent reason). The Teen Titans Nightwing would captain (yes as Robin first for a few years) was a much different book (was even relaunched a few years after the Haney penned title had been axed), and therefore group, hell even included three brand new characters, and one other one borrowed from a Silver Age concept, The Doom Patrol along side four of the original five (Aqualad was not part of the new lineup). Now being written by Marv Wolfman (collaborating with artist George Perez for much of this definitive run) the book would take a much sharper tone towards more serious and less adolescent orientated stories (read about The Judas Contract...then check the character ages of Terra and Deathstroke). The Grayson here was presented as someone who suddenly realized he needed to grow up and take a direction, and so he did. In fact he'd rarely show up in Batman or Detective for most of the 1980s and early 1990s (partially due to Wolfman's insistence that he was now a Titans character, not a Batman one, in fact, Wolfman and Perez should get the creator credits. Your credits are for Superman's Kandor adventures in a Silver Age story). It wasn't until the end of the original Titans run that Grayson returned to the Batman Family, and he'd be thrust into taking care of the Batman mantle until Bruce was fully healed from the Knightfall/Knightsquest/Knightsend saga. Realizing that he just wasn't ready for the big cape & cowl and was no longer a Titan, he again struck out to continue to forge his own identity and legacy in Bludhaven, and finally his very own solo title (besides Titans, Robin had solo adventures in All-Star Comics and during the 1970s backups in various Bat-titles such as Batman Family when Grayson was seen as a college student, but this was his first solo book). So, all that being said, YES, there is a huge difference in the Dick Grayson personas of Robin and Nightwing, so this matchup is justified and warranted. I hear you, and I'm very familiar with most of your referents, and I grant virtually all of your points*... save the main one. He's essentially the same character, further along the personal-development arc. He goes through several seismic formative experiences as Nightwing, too. Will we see post-Blockbuster-death Nightwing taking on pre-Blockbuster-death Nightwing? *Wolfman/Perez's New Teen Titans reboot began and ran for several years with Grayson as Robin. (I'm pretty sure he was Robin throughout most of the seminal Deathstroke stuff/"The Judas Contract," too.) OE: What Namor said. Only, y'know, wordier.

Edgy MD Nov 27 2014 05:59 AM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

Different persona, man. Young Aquaman and older Aquaman = same persona. Wish they weren't matched up in Round One, but a guy deserves points for changing his name, changing his clothes, changing his base of operations, and stepping out from his partner/mentor's shadow. Still and all, sidekicks being what they are, Dick's Robin is the gold standard for all sidekicks. And he lost more than Bruce Wayne ever lost but didn't turn into the cold fish that Bruce did.

Vic Sage Nov 27 2014 07:38 AM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. 2: Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

THESIS: Robin and Nightwing are different superheroes. ANALYSIS: There are many ways to assess the criteria for a "superhero", and many treatises on the subject. Supreme Court justice Learned Hand once defined them as based on "Mission, Powers and Identity." These criteria were later refined by Kurt Busiek (i think),as follows: "Mission": A superhero is, first and foremost, a hero. They act selflessly for the benefit of others. They have a moral code. That code may be violent or pacifistic, it might even be one the society judges as bad (vigliantism, fighting against the government or law enforcement), the code may even have evolved from one that was primarily "evil" at first, but it must ultimately be based on a desire to make the world a better place, not to simply benefit oneself. "Powers:" A superhero is extraordinary in some way. This doesn't require superpowers per se, but could be based on unique skills (intellectual, physical, metaphysical) or tools (equipment, technology), that are exceptional within the society in which the superhero exists (e.g., flying isn't a superpower in a world where everybody flies). And then a superhero requires at least 1 (preferably 2) of the 3 following aspects of "Identity" 1: Codename - A codename need not be a secret identity, as long as its a signifier of a different identity than his/her primary identity; 2: Costume - A costume need not be colorful spandex, but may be any unique wardrobe that accentuates the hero's motif and attributes; 3: Milieu - This refers to the presence of a preponderance of other elements in the superhero's environment, including a secret headquarters, cast of supporting characters, independent wealth, a rogue's gallery of antagonists, an achille's heal, and other standard genre conventions. Assuming this definition, then, is Nightwing a separate superhero from Robin, worthy of an independent evaluation? Mission: The characters have heroic missions, but of distinct origin and motivation. Robin was a child whose parents were murdered in front of him, who is then adopted by a father figure with a similar background and operates from the adolescent need to emulate and please the emotionally distant father. Nightwing is an adult whose motivations are borne of the post-adolescent need to separate and distinguish from the father figure and establish an independent identity. Powers: While neither have superpowers, Robin's physical prowess is augmented by Batman's technology. Nightwing relies almost entirely on greater physical prowess. Identity: The characters have entirely distinct codenames, costumes, and milieus, meeting all 3 elements of this criteria. CONCLUSION: Robin and Nightwing are 2 different and distinct superheroes, both warranting inclusion in the poll. Of course, we could have had a similar discussion if I had included both Marvel Girl and Phoenix instead of Jean Grey, but Phoenix was of such limited duration (and was partly known for its evil aspect as "Dark Phoenix") such that a separate entry seemed inappropriate. A closer call would have been including Henry Pym's other identities of Giant-Man, Goliath and YellowJacket, which i considered doing. But neither Goliath nor Yellow Jacket were significant enough to warrant separate inclusion, and Giant-Man, though of greater duration as a character, was not distinct enough from Ant-Man (except in size) as to warrant it either. These are subjective calls, obviously, but i hope this clarifies my thinking on the matter. Differences of opinion are welcome and encouraged. That's how we pass the winter until spring training.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2014 06:12 PM Re: CPF WotS, Rd. : Robin (D. Grayson) vs. Nightwing

Teenage Dick Grayson edges his adult counterpart. Green shorts forever!