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Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Gwreck Mar 16 2015 08:08 AM

As reported by Jared Diamond of Wall Street Journal. https://twitter.com/jareddiamond/status ... 6900073472

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 16 2015 08:15 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Consarn it. Summon the Undergaard

Lefty Specialist Mar 16 2015 08:23 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Well, poop. So do they do the Mets thing and start stretching out Dillon Gee, or do they start the clock on Thor or Matz on Opening Day? Inquiring minds wanna know.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2015 08:31 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I assume that they'll launch the Gee rocket and start the countdown on Viking I. Sandy's restraint on Gee market looking wise, I guess.

Nymr83 Mar 16 2015 08:37 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Sorry to see Wheeler go down, I thought he was really getting it together and about to become that 200-inning #2 starter we all thought he'd be. Thankfully Sandy didn't trade Dillon Gee for a bag of balls as requested by some impatient fans, so the Mets can still keep the prospects on whatever plan they were originally on. no need to hit the panic button folks!

Ceetar Mar 16 2015 08:38 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Edgy MD wrote: I assume that they'll launch the Gee rocket and start the countdown on Viking I. Sandy's restraint on Gee market looking wise, I guess. yeah. I suspect both A. He suspected someone would get hurt. (safe bet) and B. never got an offer he really liked. I also think having Thor or Matz or everyone pitching well in the minors doesn't have the same sort of desperation for Sandy that having 6 guys in the offseason does. It keeps other teams calling though. I'm not sure you have to go right to Syndergaard either. In fact I'm pretty sure of it. A few starts in April for Gee is certainly fine, or even Montero who's already been up.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 16 2015 08:40 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Good grief! I agree that it will probably be Gee at least into May, with Montero as the next guy in line in another starter is injured in April or early May. The Mets will want to delay starting the clock on Matz and/or Syndergaard.

Lefty Specialist Mar 16 2015 08:44 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

One wonders if he hung on to Gee because he knew this was going to happen. An off-season MRI clears him to pitch and then suddenly he's got a torn ACL....makes you wonder if they saw something and were willing to let him pitch through it.

Centerfield Mar 16 2015 08:51 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Edgy MD wrote: I assume that they'll launch the Gee rocket and start the countdown on Viking I. Sandy's restraint on Gee market looking wise, I guess. Exactly. This is why you can't ever have enough starting pitching. I've always felt that Wheeler would be the disappointment of the new crop of pitchers. Hope he comes back strong. Gee holds down the fort until the young guns are ready.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2015 08:53 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Crazy thought, but with all the ambiguity around the diagnosis until Dr. James Andrews came in and made the definitive pronouncement, doesn't it seem that the pool of trusted experts with regard to this diagnosis seems dangerously shallow. Frank Jobe is gone. Dr. Andrews is 72. Dr. Altcheck, for whatever reason, didn't get the job done on Hefner, and and Andrews had to scrub in for the second surgery. Andrews, Andrews, Andrews. That seems like a lot of elbows and a lot of teams' fates depending on one guy's expertise. And of course, when the diagnostician and the surgeon are the same guy, there can be a motivation there to recommend surgery perhaps more often than is necessarily in the player's interest.

Nymr83 Mar 16 2015 08:58 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I suspect Dr Andrews is busy enough, and rich enough, that he has no need to create business for himself in that way.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2015 09:04 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Sure, but you don't have to be explicitly corrupt to fall that way on a close call. It's just psychology, man! Guys with hammers look for nails. Guys with rakes look for leaves.

Ceetar Mar 16 2015 09:07 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Edgy MD wrote: Sure, but you don't have to be explicitly corrupt to fall that way on a close call. It's just psychology, man! Guys with hammers look for nails. Guys with rakes look for leaves. Well sure. "That's a tear, you should fix it." Tanaka, for one, disagreed. Harvey gave it a few weeks before deciding. Don't both Niese and Gee have small tears? You call a dermatologist about a red spot and he's gonna tell you to put cream on it. You go to the doctor with the sniffles and you'll probably get some antibiotics, you show up pregnant they're gonna suggest you deliver the..wait, maybe that last one's different.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2015 09:08 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

My real concern is not to suggest that Dr. Andrews is in any way not above board (he and Jobe may possibly deserve to be in the Hall of Fame), but rather to suggest that a small pool of experts is not ideal to the advancement of the field.

Centerfield Mar 16 2015 09:09 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Anyway, just get it done now. Be ready for Opening Day 2016. See if Dr. Andrews will give us a discount since we are doing 2 at the same time.

Ceetar Mar 16 2015 09:16 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Centerfield wrote: Anyway, just get it done now. Be ready for Opening Day 2016. See if Dr. Andrews will give us a discount since we are doing 2 at the same time. Iffy timing. He won't/shouldn't be ready for 2016. Probably more like the ASB but because the season will be ongoing there will be more pressure to 'rush' him back though there is some suggestion that a longer recovery period is much better.

Lefty Specialist Mar 16 2015 09:18 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

themetfairy Mar 16 2015 09:34 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Damn!

Ashie62 Mar 16 2015 09:39 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Crap. I have a feeling we may see more Thor Montero and Matz than I would have guessed.

Ashie62 Mar 16 2015 09:45 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Edgy MD wrote: My real concern is not to suggest that Dr. Andrews is in any way not above board (he and Jobe may possibly deserve to be in the Hall of Fame), but rather to suggest that a small pool of experts is not ideal to the advancement of the field. FWIW This Dr. Khalfayan from Seattle. There is some interesting info on the procedure and names of pro clients. [url]http://drkhalfayan.com/testimonials/

smg58 Mar 16 2015 10:58 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

... and this is why you don't trade surplus pitching depth too quickly. Having Dillon Gee back in the rotation makes this something a lot less than a disaster. Syndegaard and Matz can still replace Gee and Colon when they are ready to do so. Montero is in an interesting position, because the pen might need him now too -- I don't see the Mets bringing two lefties north without Edgin, and Gee is no longer a pen option -- but he's more majors-ready right now than Syndegaard or Matz if something else happens to the rotation. Plus, I'm very leery of stretching a guy out after shortening him up.

Edgy MD Mar 16 2015 11:24 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I don't think Gee or Montero have been actively shortened up. Or that anything irreversible has been done to their endurance gene.

smg58 Mar 16 2015 11:31 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I'm not suggesting that they were. But I do think circumstances have forced a decision to be made on Montero's role sooner that Alderson and Collins would have preferred, that the decision is a difficult one, and that either direction they go with him carries some risk.

Frayed Knot Mar 16 2015 11:40 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

We should just start referring to those Mets who have NOT had TJ surgery as 'The Unsullied'. 'Game of Thrones' reference for those unfamiliar

Zvon Mar 16 2015 12:52 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Shit. The air is escaping from my bubble and it's only Spring.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 16 2015 01:06 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Lefty Specialist wrote: One wonders if he hung on to Gee because he knew this was going to happen. An off-season MRI clears him to pitch and then suddenly he's got a torn ACL....makes you wonder if they saw something and were willing to let him pitch through it. That's what I'd suspect; that Wheeler's condition had worsened to the point that it made sense to hold onto the surplus pitching (Gee) as insurance specifically for Wheeler.

TransMonk Mar 16 2015 01:45 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I'm not sweating it since we have such a stockpile of starters. It makes Sandy look good for not letting Gee go for just anything. I'm hoping this won't effect Wheeler's availability for any of 2016...but I fear it probably will.

themetfairy Mar 16 2015 02:25 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Not my bubble. I like Zack and I'm sad about losing him, but I don't feel as devastated as I did when Harvey went down. I think we can weather this loss more easily.

Nymr83 Mar 16 2015 03:43 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

themetfairy wrote: Not my bubble. I like Zack and I'm sad about losing him, but I don't feel as devastated as I did when Harvey went down. I think we can weather this loss more easily. Well for one Harvey is the better player, but the fact that very few people seem to be panicking right now is a pretty strong testament to the organization that Sandy built. When Harvey went down you heard that this would push the Mets contention dreams back a year, there is none of that talk today thanks to the depth of the system

Edgy MD Mar 16 2015 06:05 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I dunno. I've witnessed several online statements of utter despair and hopelessness already. Not a lot of Gee Love (or even Special Sauce) bubbling up out there.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 16 2015 06:14 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Wheeler's injury could plausibly cause the Mets other domino effect problems, besides his lost innings. This setback likely requires the Mets to carry Gee's salary, something that many suspect was not in the Mets plans. If the Mets were planning on dumping Gee's salary, they might no longer be able to do so. If the Mets are as financially strapped as their harshest critics and biggest skeptics believe they are, carrying Gee's salary might impinge on their "supposed" plans to increase the payroll depending on their W-L record later on in the season. Again, this all depends on how broke the Mets are, and how much wiggle room they truly have with respect to their payroll, or as Sandy likes to say: how much "payroll flexibility" they truly have.

Ceetar Mar 17 2015 05:37 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Wheeler's injury could plausibly cause the Mets other domino effect problems, besides his lost innings. This setback likely requires the Mets to carry Gee's salary, something that many suspect was not in the Mets plans. If the Mets were planning on dumping Gee's salary, they might no longer be able to do so. If the Mets are as financially strapped as their harshest critics and biggest skeptics believe they are, carrying Gee's salary might impinge on their "supposed" plans to increase the payroll depending on their W-L record later on in the season. Again, this all depends on how broke the Mets are, and how much wiggle room they truly have with respect to their payroll, or as Sandy likes to say: how much "payroll flexibility" they truly have. except they have Syndergaard, Montero, Matz, etc. If they desperately needed to dump Gee he'd be gone already.

Lefty Specialist Mar 17 2015 06:07 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

You know, I'd be comfortable with Montero as the 5th starter. Unless somebody else's arm is about to fall off (cough, Niese, cough) and they haven't told us.

MFS62 Mar 17 2015 06:14 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Lefty Specialist wrote: You know, I'd be comfortable with Montero as the 5th starter. I agree. But I'm guessing that TC would rather go with a proven veteran. Its "the book". Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 17 2015 06:40 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Yeah, but it's literally the difference-maker between the two. As a control pitcher with unimpressive "stuff" who pounds the zone relentlessly and has been weirdly good (considering) at avoiding home-run-age, Montero is essentially Gee, minus the experience. Thing is, though... with his ace-through-batter-18 stat profile, Gee has seemed a natural for the pen move this year. Ripples, man.

MFS62 Mar 17 2015 06:58 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

zips projections: Wheeler: 175 IP - 8.81 K/9 - 3.43 BB/9 - 0.77 HR/9 - 3.48 ERA - 3.58 FIP Montero: 144 IP - 8.65 K/9 - 3.11 BB/9 - 0.87 HR/9 - 3.61 ERA - 3.63 FIP Gee: 142 IP - 6.78 K/9 - 2.54 BB/9 - 1.14 HR/9 - 4.18 ERA - 4.24 FIP They project Montero closer to Wheeler than what Gee would provide. Later

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 07:23 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I certainly don't think it's the book to go with Gee. I do think it makes good business sense to give an opportunity to the established guy who has no options and challenge the younger player to figure things out and take the job from him outright. I'm certainly rooting for Montero. But it's a good problem to have, as much as losing Wheeler is a bad problem to have.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Mar 17 2015 07:42 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Ripples, man. Yes and yes. That's where it hurts.

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 09:27 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Frayed Knot wrote: We should just start referring to those Mets who have NOT had TJ surgery as 'The Unsullied'. 'Game of Thrones' reference for those unfamiliar I'm counting, out of 31 guys in camp, seven (or 22.6%) to be "sullied" by Tommy John surgery, and another six (19.4%) to be marked by pitching-related surgeries of a different stripe. Those would actually look like pretty successful numbers, from a pure data standpoint, if the list of marked men didn't skew extremely toward the highest profile pitchers they have. The Sullied The Unsullied But… Jacob deGrom Dario Álvarez Nada! Josh Edgin (to come) Vic Black But nothin'! Matt Harvey Matt Bowman A healthy arm, and his mom's a doctor! Steven Matz Chasen Bradford Got knocked out of camp with an oblique injury last year, but no surgery! Jenrry Mejia Buddy Carlyle A miracle! Bobby Parnell Bartolo Colon He has had bone chip removal surgery. Zach Wheeler (to come) Jeurys Familia Had arthroscpic surgery to remove bone spurs and "loose bodies." Dillon Gee Had surgery to remove a blood clot in his shoulder. Sean Gilmartin A true blue spectacle! Eric Goeddel Clean! Jack Leathersich A good candidate for gastrointestinal surgery, but otherwise clean! Cory Mazzoni Suffered a bad impact injury on a comebacker last year, but no surgery! Rafael Montero He's a clean machine! Akeel Morris No scars! Jon Niese He has had surgery to repair a hamstring tear. Scott Rice Bone spurs. Tyler Pill A former outfielder, his arm is still relatively fresh! Hansel Robles No Jeff Walters, he! Cody Satterwhite Shoulder surgery back in 2010. Noah Syndergaard Knock a whole lot of wood! Zack Thornton An enigmatic, but clean, character! Carlos Torres Nothin' but blisters! Jon Velasquez An indy ball survivor, but no record of surgery that I've found! Gabriel Ynoa He's got the elbow of a newborn baby!

Frayed Knot Mar 17 2015 09:51 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Don't think Matz had TJ procedures, just had complications and other problems which led to an ultra-long recovery period. Hefner's the guy whose first TJ 'didn't take'.

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 09:54 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

You're correct. One Tommy John plus complications.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 10:33 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Ceetar wrote: Wheeler's injury could plausibly cause the Mets other domino effect problems, besides his lost innings. This setback likely requires the Mets to carry Gee's salary, something that many suspect was not in the Mets plans. If the Mets were planning on dumping Gee's salary, they might no longer be able to do so. If the Mets are as financially strapped as their harshest critics and biggest skeptics believe they are, carrying Gee's salary might impinge on their "supposed" plans to increase the payroll depending on their W-L record later on in the season. Again, this all depends on how broke the Mets are, and how much wiggle room they truly have with respect to their payroll, or as Sandy likes to say: how much "payroll flexibility" they truly have. except they have Syndergaard, Montero, Matz, etc. If they desperately needed to dump Gee he'd be gone already. Maybe the Mets are looking to stall their arb clocks. Should fans trust the Mets to believe that their personnel decisions regarding their budding pitchers are not mainly driven by salary concerns?

duan Mar 17 2015 11:03 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

every team makes roster moves on the basis of Free Agency and arbitration. The Chicago Cubs are going to keep Kris Bryant in the minors so that they get another year of team control and nobodies saying that's due to money, it's just playing the standard cost/benefit analysis that any intelligent organisation will do.

Ashie62 Mar 17 2015 11:05 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Frayed Knot wrote: Don't think Matz had TJ procedures, just had complications and other problems which led to an ultra-long recovery period. Hefner's the guy whose first TJ 'didn't take'. I believe Matz had TJ surgery 5/18/2010 and saw Dr Andrews fearing another tear in 2012. A nice current background piece on Matz. [url]http://www.northjersey.com/sports/baseball/the-mets-next-big-thing-1.1289403?page=all

Ceetar Mar 17 2015 11:25 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Maybe the Mets are looking to stall their arb clocks. Should fans trust the Mets to believe that their personnel decisions regarding their budding pitchers are not mainly driven by salary concerns? Montero's been up already. They could have signed any number of major league minimum veteran guys for depth to get 3 starts out of them in April.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 11:38 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Ceetar wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Maybe the Mets are looking to stall their arb clocks. Should fans trust the Mets to believe that their personnel decisions regarding their budding pitchers are not mainly driven by salary concerns? Montero's been up already. Doesn't service time accrue only when the player's on the 25 man roster?

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 11:39 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

So, the Mets are scornfully cheap for shopping Gee and scornfully cheap for keeping Gee.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 11:48 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Edgy MD wrote: So, the Mets are scornfully cheap for shopping Gee and scornfully cheap for keeping Gee. Cheap is cheap.

Ashie62 Mar 17 2015 12:39 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: So, the Mets are scornfully cheap for shopping Gee and scornfully cheap for keeping Gee. Cheap is cheap. The Mets were being prudent in keeping Gee to use when some starter went down. A starter did go down, just earlier than we expected. I don't see any argument that includes Gee and cheap in the same sentence.

Frayed Knot Mar 17 2015 12:42 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Doesn't service time accrue only when the player's on the 25 man roster? Yes, for 51 days to be precise for Montero, meaning he has approx 28% of one season (51/182) under his belt. So, assuming he were to make the club from opening day this season and never again go back down, he'd have 2.28 years of service time at the end of the 2016 season - almost certainly NOT enough to qualify for arbitration. With approx 1/6 of players between 2 & 3 years qualifying, it's those with ~2.7 and up who are the likely candidates. And on the other end, the Mets would have to keep him on the farm for most of this season in order to possibly delay his arb-time an extra year to 2019. Besides, arbitration is relatively small potatoes anyway. Sure, given the choice of having your rookie reach it three years from now or four, the club would opt for four. But there's no specific cutoff date where you can be sure that would happen and the fact that a player's status depends not just on his own service time but also on that of every other major leaguer who will have greater than two years but less than three in the same year that he does means the math becomes very inexact and tough to project. As with the Montero example above, they'd have to choose to forego him for most of this season in order to gain a possible marginal savings to the 2018 payroll that's based on a whole lotta guesswork. FA-gency is a different story and also a lot simpler. Players qualify with exactly six years or more so, with the ability to delay whether their supposed prize gets to call his own shots after six years of seven simply be keeping him down on the farm for the first month of the season, clubs take that option nearly 100% of the time.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 12:49 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 17 2015 12:53 PM

So, the Mets are scornfully cheap for shopping Gee and scornfully cheap for keeping Gee. Cheap is cheap. The Mets were being prudent in keeping Gee to use when some starter went down. A starter did go down, just earlier than we expected. I don't see any argument that includes Gee and cheap in the same sentence. Yeah, I was being sarcastic. I agree that if the Mets had legitimate worries about Wheeler's health, it made perfect sense for them to hold onto Gee as an insurance policy. It also made perfect sense for the Mets to keep their concerns about Wheeler to themselves rather than publicizing them, contrary to what Bob Klapisch believes: excerpt: But once again, the Mets make it hard to trust them. No one said a word this winter about Wheeler’s chronic pain. Was it because it was time to hustle season tickets? Was it because a potential setback to one of their prized young arms would sabotage the sales pitch? Is that the reason Alderson never pulled the trigger on a trade for Dillon Gee, because he privately feared this day was coming? Shame on Alderson and his bosses, the Wilpons, for their lack of transparency. If Wheeler’s arm was enough of a concern for a PRP shot in November and an unscheduled MRI in January, it should’ve never been kept a secret. And for Alderson to say Monday, “This kind of result was not totally unexpected,” then every Mets fan has a right to ask: Why didn’t you do anything about it? http://www.northjersey.com/sports/klapi ... -1.1290256

Ceetar Mar 17 2015 12:52 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

wait, what? KlapTrap is wondering why the Mets didn't do something about it? Like they have the magic pill for Tommy John and aren't using it?

dgwphotography Mar 17 2015 01:13 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Ceetar wrote: wait, what? KlapTrap is wondering why the Mets didn't do something about it? Like they have the magic pill for Tommy John and aren't using it? Are you always this obtuse, or just purposely being so? He wants to know the same thing I want to know. Why weren't they more transparent about this? I don't know about you, but I have a healthy dose of skepticism about everything the Mets do, because the Wilpons have hardly done anything to gain our trust.

d'Kong76 Mar 17 2015 01:18 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I can't see the word obtuse without thinking of The Shawshank Redemption.

Ceetar Mar 17 2015 01:19 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

dgwphotography wrote: Ceetar wrote: wait, what? KlapTrap is wondering why the Mets didn't do something about it? Like they have the magic pill for Tommy John and aren't using it? Are you always this obtuse, or just purposely being so? He wants to know the same thing I want to know. Why weren't they more transparent about this? I don't know about you, but I have a healthy dose of skepticism about everything the Mets do, because the Wilpons have hardly done anything to gain our trust. No, he's asking why they didn't do something about it. Are the Mets now required to put out a press release for every doctor visit of their players? Maybe they give the email addy for their media listserve (and the bloggers please) directly to the doctor to CC when he gets back to them with results.

dgwphotography Mar 17 2015 01:19 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

d'Kong76 wrote: I can't see the word obtuse without thinking of The Shawshank Redemption. To be honest, I still haven't seen that movie.

d'Kong76 Mar 17 2015 01:22 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

No reason to be dishonest!!

dgwphotography Mar 17 2015 01:22 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Ceetar wrote: No, he's asking why they didn't do something about it. According to our great GM's quote, they knew about this already. So, why not do something about it in the off-season, instead of pushing him and waiting until now?

Ceetar Mar 17 2015 01:26 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

dgwphotography wrote: Ceetar wrote: No, he's asking why they didn't do something about it. According to our great GM's quote, they knew about this already. So, why not do something about it in the off-season, instead of pushing him and waiting until now? No. He didn't have a tear in January. It was only 'expected' because he's a freaking pitcher and his previous MRIs did show weakness. Unless he's talking about the crock idea of a preventative Tommy John surgery.

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 02:04 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I'm not sure what they're supposed to do either. Monitor, evaluate, maybe prescribe exercise. But when you get to spring, and the guy starts throwing in earnest, in game situations, and it goes, it goes. Presuming guilt and searching for facts to back it up isn't getting us far. Elbows go. Nobody wants them to. Nobody knows quite how to stop it from happening. The notion that they were hiding results to push season tickets is nutty for any number of reasons.

dgwphotography Mar 17 2015 02:14 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: No, he's asking why they didn't do something about it. According to our great GM's quote, they knew about this already. So, why not do something about it in the off-season, instead of pushing him and waiting until now? No. He didn't have a tear in January. It was only 'expected' because he's a freaking pitcher and his previous MRIs did show weakness. Unless he's talking about the crock idea of a preventative Tommy John surgery. You do know that he was in pain all off-season, and needed a shot, don't you? If he didn't have the tear then, then why the pain?

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 02:21 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Mar 17 2015 02:28 PM

The New York Times raises the possibility that Wheeler might have been misdiagnosed, noting that those tears, in their earliest stages, can be missed, even on MRI images. Bad Luck or Bad Practices? It’s Tough for Mets to Tell By DAVID WALDSTEIN MARCH 16, 2015 So extensive is the growing list of Mets pitchers who have needed Tommy John surgery in recent years that even their general manager had difficulty recalling all of them on Monday. “I don’t have all the cases in front of me,” the general manager, Sandy Alderson, said on a conference call with reporters, “but the four I can think of are deGrom, Matz, Wheeler now and Harvey. As well as Hefner, I guess, will be five.” More formally, the five are Jacob deGrom, Steven Matz, Matt Harvey, Jeremy Hefner and Zack Wheeler, who is the latest Mets pitcher found to have a tear in his ulnar collateral ligament, that tiny bit of sinew in the elbow that has cost so many pitchers at least a year of their careers. Alderson did not mention four other past and present Mets pitchers of note — Jenrry Mejia, Mike Pelfrey, Bobby Parnell and Josh Edgin — who have required the operation since 2010, with the team announcing Sunday that Edgin would have it this week. That makes for nine Mets pitchers in all — or 10 if you factor in that Hefner has had the procedure twice — a total that seems excessive even as teams across baseball lose more and more pitchers to elbow injuries. “You can always look at your practices in developing pitching,” Alderson said during the conference call. “Also look at mechanics and whether mechanics are clean or not clean, velocities, types and assortments of pitches. We will certainly continue to look at what we’re doing. But this is an industrywide problem, and there is some suggestion this goes back to pitching loads and things that predate even college. So it’s something baseball has to continue to look at. We do as well.” Because there is no real consensus on why so many pitchers are tearing their elbow ligaments, Alderson and the Mets will have a hard time figuring out whether they have simply been victims of bad luck or whether practices within the organization need to be addressed. “It does seem as if the Mets are consistently dealing with this issue,” said Dr. Craig Levitz, the chairman of orthopedic surgery at South Nassau Communities Hospital on Long Island. “It could be some of the things they are doing, it could be the pitchers that they pursue, and it could just be bad luck. It’s very hard to know.” After Harvey hurt his elbow in 2013, the Mets looked into pitch counts and rest days but made no substantial changes regarding the way their pitchers were treated, Alderson said. “Caution is the best thing one can learn from any of these,” he said. Still, the Mets did not act more cautiously with Wheeler in camp this year than they did with other pitchers, Alderson said, citing advice from the team’s medical staff. Wheeler had pitched with elbow discomfort in 2014 and had magnetic resonance imaging tests on his elbow in September and January. “If the doctors had felt that we needed to treat him in a different way, we would have,” Alderson said. Levitz, who has worked alongside Dr. James Andrews, the orthopedic surgeon widely regarded as the leading expert on Tommy John surgery, has not examined Wheeler but followed his case in recent days through published reports. Levitz said Wheeler’s injury — a full tear of the ligament, as detected by an M.R.I. over the weekend — almost certainly did not come out of nowhere in the last week. In all likelihood, Levitz said, the two previous M.R.I.s missed a small partial tear in Wheeler’s elbow that eventually became a full one. Had the full tear occurred several months from now, in the middle of the season, it might have been independent of the elbow tendinitis that Wheeler was feeling last year, Levitz said. But the fact that he felt discomfort after only one spring training start indicated that it was related to his problems from last season. M.R.I.s sometimes give false negatives, especially when they are used without a dye that can help expose even the smallest tears, Levitz said. But Levitz, citing the three M.R.I.s the Mets gave Wheeler in seven months, said it was clear that the team’s doctors had been suspicious of something. “It was probably ulnar collateral ligament stuff that masqueraded as tendinitis because the M.R.I. was normal,” Levitz said. “Ulnar collateral ligament tears are very difficult to diagnose sometimes. It could have been a very small tear that didn’t show up, and even if it did, you might have followed the same protocol for the player that they did.” http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/sport ... .html?_r=0

Ceetar Mar 17 2015 02:22 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

he _didn't_ have the tear. The MRI in January did not show it.

dgwphotography Mar 17 2015 02:25 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Ceetar wrote: he _didn't_ have the tear. The MRI in January did not show it. Look up one post. These tears can be missed, even in MRI images

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 02:25 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Ceetar wrote: he _didn't_ have the tear. The MRI in January did not show it. Unless the MRI did show it, but was missed by Mets doctors. Or unless the MRI ought to have shown it, but not enough dye was injected into Wheeler, so as to reveal the already existing injury. See NYT piece, above.

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 02:27 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Well, those two statements don't necessarily follow each other. it's certainly possible, as the Time speculates, that he did have the tear, but the examination didn't show it. OE: Or what he said. And what he said.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 02:30 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Edgy MD wrote: Well, those two statements don't necessarily follow each other. it's certainly possible, as the Time speculates, that he did have the tear, but the examination didn't show it. Yeah. But if you're addressing my post, that's why I used the word "unless". All three possibilities are in play.

Ceetar Mar 17 2015 02:39 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Edgy MD wrote: Well, those two statements don't necessarily follow each other. it's certainly possible, as the Time speculates, that he did have the tear, but the examination didn't show it. OE: Or what he said. And what he said. So the Met should've what? Known the MRI test is wrong? Not trusted the doctors? Maybe they should've sent him for an MRI in the offseason to ..oh wait. And when he still felt pain in March they should've..oh wait.. What Klapisch is suggesting is the the Mets should've told him, so he could fill column space in the offseason with some news type stuff.

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 02:44 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Well, those two statements don't necessarily follow each other. it's certainly possible, as the Time speculates, that he did have the tear, but the examination didn't show it. Yeah. But if you're addressing my post, that's why I used the word "unless". All three possibilities are in play. No, I was addressing ceetar's post. I don't pretend to know what the Mets should have done. I'm just pointing out that the MRI giving a negative result with regard to a tear doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that the tear was there. I'm just loyal to the logic, man. I don't know why you chose my point to play that jazzy "oh, wait" game.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 17 2015 02:48 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I thought you were responding to my post, that's all.

Edgy MD Mar 17 2015 02:59 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Yes, and just to clarify, the next two paragraphs of my post above were addressed to my friend, ceetar, and his comments in response to mine, which I bequoted.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 17 2015 03:02 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

And this is addressed to Zack Wheeler: Get well soon!

Nymr83 Mar 17 2015 10:15 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Maybe the Mets should have anounced to the entire leafue that they might be without their #2 starter from a year ago and they were now trading and negotiating from a weaker position. Oh, wait, that doesnt make sense does it? Maybe the doctors should have violated hippa to satiate the writers' curiosity and feed the conspiracy theorists... No, that doesnt work either. Maybe everyone did everything just fine and there is nothing to see here?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Mar 17 2015 10:17 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

"BUT WHY DIDN'T THEY TELL MEEEEEEEEEE?" -The subtext of each and every critique of the Met "handling" of the Wheeler injury that I've read so far

Nymr83 Mar 17 2015 11:18 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: "BUT WHY DIDN'T THEY TELL MEEEEEEEEEE?" -The subtext of each and every critique of the Met "handling" of the Wheeler injury that I've read so far Yup.

Mets Guy in Michigan Mar 18 2015 04:31 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I think "transparency" is a word that applies to governments, not baseball teams. Baseball teams don't have to tell anyone anything. Reporters are grumbling because they have to justify not knowing about this months ago.

Frayed Knot Mar 18 2015 06:55 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

The other take on this seems to be: 'Injuries show weakness in Sandy's plan' -- as opposed to those other GMs whose plans are unaffected by two TJ surgeries in the same week.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 18 2015 07:28 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

That may be an argument you can make regarding Edgin, with the Mets now without a clear option for who will be their left-handed reliever. But Wheeler is a different story entirely. His injury has caused the Mets to go from having nine starting pitchers to having only eight. This sucks for Zack Wheeler, of course, and there certainly will be a ripple effect, but with Wheeler gone they still have Colon-Niese-deGrom-Gee-Harvey-Montero-Syndergaard-Matz. On this front, you have to give Sandy credit for building and maintaining all that depth.

Nymr83 Mar 18 2015 01:20 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Some more quotes for any idiots who want to criticize the Mets on this... B.B. Abbott, Wheeler's agent, said he had no issue with the way the Mets handled the right-hander. The agent added that he had sought independent analysis of Wheeler's elbow issue, and Wheeler was treated consistently with doctors' recommendations. "Anything that happened last year, or any other time Zack has been a Met, has been with complete and full knowledge of the circumstances, and occurred after consultation with qualified orthopedic surgeons," Abbott said. [url]http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/story/_/id/12501348/sandy-alderson-defends-new-york-mets-handling-zach-wheeler-elbow

batmagadanleadoff Mar 19 2015 01:05 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

[fimg=273]https://s0.wp.com/wp-content/themes/vip/espn-grantland/img/grantland-logo@2x.png[/fimg] March Sadness: Understanding the True Cost of the Spring Tommy John Surge March 19, 2015 by Ben Lindbergh [fimg=744]https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zack-wheeler-mets-tri.jpg?w=750[/fimg] excerpt: The carefully curated MLB preview plan that Grantland’s baseball brain trust put together last month said that today’s feature would be about the depth of two NL East rotations: the Washington Nationals’ and the New York Mets’. The schedule stayed that way until Monday morning, when news broke that Mets starter Zack Wheeler’s sore right elbow, which he said last week wasn’t painful enough to have cost him a start during the regular season, would cost him all of his starts during the regular season. Wheeler has a fully torn ulnar collateral ligament that will require Tommy John surgery, ending his season before it could begin. Wheeler’s absence opens a rotation spot for Dillon Gee — an uninspiring but acceptable replacement by fifth-starter standards — at least until he’s displaced by one or more members of the Mets’ trio of just-about-big-league-ready pitching prospects: Noah Syndergaard, Steven Matz, and Rafael Montero. Although the Mets’ depth isn’t as enviable as it was a week ago, that’s only because some of their surplus has already served its purpose, cushioning the rotation from what must have seemed to GM Sandy Alderson like an almost inevitable blow. Just as Wheeler’s injury reshaped the right-hander’s anatomy, the Mets’ roster, and the NL wild-card race, it altered our topic for today. Instead of writing about the ways in which teams build depth, I’m writing about the way depth gets depleted. It’s a relevant topic at this time of year, because while March probably can’t make a bad baseball team better, it can kill a competitive one. [***] The takeaway: March is a tough time for pitchers, period. (We miss you, Marcus Stroman.) Compared with other pitcher surgeries, TJs are far more front-loaded, but even non-TJ surgeries for pitchers reach their highest point as April approaches. Batters, meanwhile, don’t have it noticeably harder in the spring than they do during the summer. Both groups see significant bumps in the fall, as players break down from fatigue and those who’ve been playing through injuries finish their seasons and have no reason to avoid getting whatever is broken fixed. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-p ... u-darvish/

Fman99 Mar 20 2015 11:03 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Now Rubin is saying with the elbow issues that Wheeler is not expected back until next June. Which makes me way sadder than if he were back in March.

Frayed Knot Mar 20 2015 11:54 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Tj surgery is generally talked about as needing AT LEAST 12 months of recovery and the advice survivors give their newbie teammates undergoing for the first time is usually DON'T RUSH IT --- so, yeah, we shouldn't expect ZW for opening day of 2016.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 20 2015 12:20 PM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

I'd be glad to see him in July.

Frayed Knot Mar 21 2015 06:46 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

Specifically with Wheeler, his procedure is one "that will be somewhat more complex than most, since he also will have his partially torn tendon repaired [and] a bone spur on his elbow removed". Even without those complications though, 14 months or so is probably an average for recovery time.

Edgy MD Mar 21 2015 07:05 AM Re: Wheeler: Torn Ligament, Tommy John Surgery Likely

The difference between April and June won't be as awful in practice as it is in theory right now. We'll have moved on to other disappointments by then.