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Curtis Granderson Sucks

Centerfield May 06 2015 08:10 AM

It's a wonder that he doesn't get more grief from the fans and media. Maybe everyone gives him a pass because he is likeable. But he's terrible. If Jason Bay is the standard for terrible contracts, Granderson is not far off. I was hoping that last year was an aberration, and that this year would be a "bounce-back" year. But then I looked at his stats: http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... cu01.shtml There is a good sample size of suck there. You can't win with light-hitting SS production out of a corner OFer (who's arm also sucks). You can talk about Wilmer Flores if you want, but if you are looking to improve the 2015 Mets, you should be starting with RF.

d'Kong76 May 06 2015 08:13 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

He'd be the prime piñata if he wasn't walking so much.

Ceetar May 06 2015 08:13 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

104 OPS+ last year. 100 this year in barely a meaningful sample. He hasn't driven the ball but he will, and if he has a .364 OBP the rest of the time? that's good.

themetfairy May 06 2015 08:14 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

You get no argument from me CF.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2015 08:14 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Good OBP. He's not a big problem yet.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 08:15 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I think he's doing alright. Most of his production is walks, but that might change if and when the lineup strengthens. But it's better than a weak-hitting shortstop, certainly. He's certainly not killing it, but I'm not jettisoning him. Or anybody, really, at this point.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2015 08:16 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

League average OBP is 310. 310!!

Ceetar May 06 2015 08:18 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

if you wanna talk about the other corner, however, he's a guy that needs to do more. He's the guy most underperforming with Murphy the runner up.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 08:25 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I think they've been pretty comparable, myself. Murphy is trailing the pack in my book, but I ain't panicking.

Centerfield May 06 2015 08:28 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson has an OPS of .711 since joining the Mets. He is a corner outfielder making 15 million per year. This is ok with you guys? We shouldn't be comparing him to league averages. We should be comparing him to middle of the lineup threats.

Ceetar May 06 2015 08:35 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I don't really care how much he's making, nor do I care what position he plays. I care about the aggregate of the entire team. And I know those billion walks become runs if the other guys, like Cuddyer and Flores and Murphy and Plawecki and Herrera and Pitcher start doing their job at the plate.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 08:38 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

OK? I wouldn't say this. I want more success, certainly. Last year is last year, and the salary can't be changed. That's done. The important thing is what he's doing relative to the alternatives. Jason Bay (who made more and did it when the dollar went a little further) hit his way out of the lineup and off the team. Granderson hasn't done this. I think one thing you do when deciding on a long-term deal is try to figure out whether the guy will be completely useless if he can't perform at peak value. He, like Wright, hasn't been. Bay mostly was.

Ceetar May 06 2015 08:43 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Bay also played in a higher offensive environment. John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: League average OBP is 310. 310!! .325,.321,.319 in Bay's 3 years.

Centerfield May 06 2015 08:53 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Ceetar wrote: I don't really care how much he's making, nor do I care what position he plays. I care about the aggregate of the entire team. Then you are not smart. And it is difficult to have an intelligent conversation with people who are not smart. Ceetar wrote: And I know those billion walks become runs if the other guys, like Cuddyer and Flores and Murphy and Plawecki and Herrera and Pitcher start doing their job at the plate. Really? The pitcher? I refer to my earlier statement. A lot is being made of the walks throughout this thread. Even if you take into account the walks, it does not bring his overall value to anything close to what you would want from a corner outfielder, much less a corner outfielder taking a big chunk of the team's payroll.

Ceetar May 06 2015 08:59 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

run scoring is the most important thing. Only Duda has a higher wRC+ (and Wright and d'Arnaud) run scoring is also the Mets #1 problem, not the % contribution from one singular player. Yes, he should be helping more, but at least he's helping instead of hurting.

dgwphotography May 06 2015 09:10 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I like that he has changed his approach since he was moved into the lead-off spot. That bunt against that ridiculous shift was a beautiful thing to see.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 09:15 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I'd like to see a game where the Mets attempt about 10 bunt hits.

dgwphotography May 06 2015 09:16 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: I'd like to see a game where the Mets attempt about 10 bunt hits. It would be the only way to stop the shift once and for all...

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 09:19 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

A coupl'a opinions about Granderson: I think he kinda sucks big time. Last year's crappy numbers weren't a fluke in my book. Adjusting out the Yankee Stadium numbers that were inflating his overall stats and accounting for the fact that he was now gonna play half his games in Citi Field, and last year's shitty season was about right on the mark. That's who Granderson is. He sucks. But he does draw a lot of walks. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that that's a sign that he's getting older, lost some bat speed, and knows it -- so he's smart enough to compensate by fouling off pitches he can no longer handle until he gets his four balls. Nobody did this better than Willie Mays at the end of his career, and everybody knows where Willie ended his career at. I'd probably be wrong, though, 'cause Granderson has always walked a lot. Even in his prime. Walks aren't new with him. And those walks have value. But those walks aren't compensating for the rest of his offense, which is invisible. So how valuable is he, even with the walks? I got into a disagreement a couple of days ago here over whether Tejada should've been batting second in that game's lineup. I said "no", and it came up that Tejada's OBP was about league average, or a tick of a hair above average, to justify his spot in the #2 hole. Like Granderson here, whose 's OPS+ and WRC+ is about league average, or a teeny tiny bit more. The problem with average, or league average, is that in MLB, it doesn't mean what it usually means in the normal world. Major league baseball players are comprised of the coupl'a hundred best position players in the world. That's hardly a random sample. So when you plot the stats of MLB players, you don't usually get a bell shaped curve; instead you get a distribution that's like the right-most tail end of a bell shaped curve. In that curve, almost every player clusters around the average. So for example, if the league batting average is .260, you might get two or three batting average champ candidates batting 60 or 70 points above average. But don't expect to find two or three players with a full season's worth of at bats batting 60 or 70 points below average. The curve is skewed towards average. And in baseball, average is kind of crappy. You'd know this instinctively even if you didn't think about the math. Average is no good because only a quarter of the teams qualify to play full playoff series. The average team knows it's out of the race probably before Labor Day. It sucks to be average in MLB. And Grandy sucks. Ceetar wrote: I don't really care how much he's making, nor do I care what position he plays. I care about the aggregate of the entire team. So if the Mets had Stargell and Aaron and Bench and Morgan and Seaver and Carlton in their primes on the same team, it'd be OK with you if my mother was their starting shortstop, right?

Ceetar May 06 2015 09:30 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: I don't really care how much he's making, nor do I care what position he plays. I care about the aggregate of the entire team. So if the Mets had Stargell and Aaron and Bench and Morgan and Seaver and Carlton in their primes on the same team, it'd be OK with you if my mother was their starting shortstop, right? Yes. Though you exaggerate, I'd absolutely take a SS that hits like Rey Ordonez and fields like Wilmer Flores if the rest of the team is that? That team wins. You're also wrong about the average thing. Average is good in baseball. The average hitter is .253/.318/.397. That plays. That's better than half the players on most teams. It's hard to be that good. Yes, you need guys to play above that, and that Granderson is only a tick above isn't great, but the problem is still that the Mets lost two guys hitting WAY above that line.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 09:32 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: I don't really care how much he's making, nor do I care what position he plays. I care about the aggregate of the entire team. So if the Mets had Stargell and Aaron and Bench and Morgan and Seaver and Carlton in their primes on the same team, it'd be OK with you if my mother was their starting shortstop, right? Yes. Though you exaggerate, I'd absolutely take a SS that hits like Rey Ordonez and fields like Wilmer Flores if the rest of the team is that? That team wins. That team wins in spite of its shortstop. Ceetar wrote: You're also wrong about the average thing. Average is good in baseball. The average hitter is .253/.318/.397. That plays. That's better than half the players on most teams. It's hard to be that good. Yes, you need guys to play above that, and that Granderson is only a tick above isn't great, but the problem is still that the Mets lost two guys hitting WAY above that line. If you wanna build a pennant contender, average sucks in baseball. The average team, with a roster full of average guys, goes nowhere. Bigger picture, the average MLB'er makes millions of dollars a year while still a relatively young man and is one of the best players in the world. That part of average, I could go for.

Ceetar May 06 2015 09:39 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

The average team with average players could tread water if it has two great guys coming back, the potential for midseason trades, a history of better performance from at least 2 of it's hitters, and a 5 game lead over the only team that anyone thinks is any good. (A team that had Strasburg pulled from the game for discomfort) That team? That team is on the cusp of a playoff berth all season. It doesn't hinge on if Granderson is merely 5% better than average or closer to 20%. Sure, that would help, but it's the other guys that are the problem.

Vic Sage May 06 2015 09:39 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks Edited 2 time(s), most recently on May 06 2015 09:43 AM

So if the Mets had Stargell and Aaron and Bench and Morgan and Seaver and Carlton in their primes on the same team, it'd be OK with you if my mother was their starting shortstop, right? i don't know... how good is your mom? Can she throw the ball accurately to first? sign her up! As for Grandy: He's got a .690 OPS at a key offensive position, eating up $15m of extremely limited resources, and hasn't been good since 2012. He doesn't run anymore and he's a RFer that can't throw. Frankly, I don't think his suckitude is really up for debate. Sure, you can twist yourself into a knot talking about how he's not THE problem because, you know, he draws walks, but he's certainly A problem. The only issue is what can the Mets do about it... the answer is not much. A team with resources might look to dump him and eat his contract, getting what they can for him, and trade one of their pitchers for an OFer that can... um... hit, but i don't see the Mets doing that. Instead, we'll talk about Flores and Murphy and Cuddyer, which is fine, because they all suck too, but as to CF's cogent point: why does Grandy get a pass? Because he's a nice guy who draws walks. Well aint' that just peachy? Sure, i'd be happy if he'd marry my daughter, but get him the fuck out of RF already.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 09:40 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: I don't really care how much he's making, nor do I care what position he plays. I care about the aggregate of the entire team. So if the Mets had Stargell and Aaron and Bench and Morgan and Seaver and Carlton in their primes on the same team, it'd be OK with you if my mother was their starting shortstop, right? Yes. Though you exaggerate, I'd absolutely take a SS that hits like Rey Ordonez and fields like Wilmer Flores if the rest of the team is that? That team wins. Look, if you have an otherwise great team, one of the benefits is that you can carry lesser players. Everybody can't be an all-star, and supply and demand makes it almost impossible for any team to field eight position playing stars. Even the '86 Mets had Rafael Santana. But don't twist that into something it's not. Granderson is not anywhere near the reason this year's Mets are in first place. And a team full of guys performing like Grandy would be eliminated very early.

Ceetar May 06 2015 09:42 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I mean, I can point to all the facts I want, if you're not going to believe them, don't believe them.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 09:42 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks. Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team. The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be.

d'Kong76 May 06 2015 09:45 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Maybe Zvon can photoshop a piñata with Curtis's mug on it!

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2015 09:46 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

batmagadanleadoff wrote: If you wanna build a pennant contender, average sucks in baseball. The average team, with a roster full of average guys, goes nowhere. Is that really true? I don't know this for sure, but I'd guess that a team loaded with average guys -- that is, NONE below average for their roles* -- would probably be a good team. The teams that go nowhere are the ones who have a guy or three below average. * - by this I mean, your first baseman average vs. other first basemen, your leadoff guy vs. other leadoff guys etc. however it works out.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 09:51 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: If you wanna build a pennant contender, average sucks in baseball. The average team, with a roster full of average guys, goes nowhere. Is that really true? I don't know this for sure, but I'd guess that a team loaded with average guys -- that is, NONE below average for their roles* -- would probably be a good team. The teams that go nowhere are the ones who have a guy or three below average. * - by this I mean, your first baseman average vs. other first basemen, your leadoff guy vs. other leadoff guys etc. however it works out. By average, I mean average. Not necessarily below average, but not really above average either.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 10:04 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 06 2015 10:06 AM

Edgy MD wrote: I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks. Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team. The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be. I agree. And teams have to have average players because there's more of them then there are stars. But that's a far cry from saying that Granderson is very valuable. Granderson's not an asset at this stage of his career. But these are different questions. We started out with: Does Granderson suck? (a/k/a how good or not good is he?)

Frayed Knot May 06 2015 10:05 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

The only thing I'll say for Granderson to date -- and I can't prove this but I believe it to be true -- is that he's seemed to be really unlucky so far, lots of at 'em balls off his bat.

d'Kong76 May 06 2015 10:06 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I don't get the whole winning in spite of thing and why that's important to some. The RF's for the Giants were somewhat average a couple of years ago and that ring they won is just as shiny.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 10:09 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. I assume you're talking about the 2015 Mets. If you are, and I think you are, their offense kinda blows, too. They're in first place in spite of their bats. The offense is bad enough that as sucky as Granderson is, the Mets have several starters even worse. But that doesn't mean that Grandy's very good.

Ceetar May 06 2015 10:15 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. I assume you're talking about the 2015 Mets. If you are, and I think you are, their offense kinda blows, too. They're in first place in spite of their bats. The offense is bad enough that as sucky as Granderson is, the Mets have several starters even worse. But that doesn't mean that Grandy's very good. his stats mean he doesn't _suck_ though. Also, small sample size. If he goes 1/3 with a HR and a BB tonight his SLG jumps like 30 points to .239/.369/.359 Meaning he's one good offensive day from going from okay to good and a hot series from great.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 10:16 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks. Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team. The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be. I agree. And teams have to have average players because there's more of them then there are stars. But that's a far cry from saying that Granderson is very valuable. Granderson's not an asset at this stage of his career. But these are different questions. We started out with: Does Granderson suck? (a/k/a how good or not good is he?) I'm not sure I know where he was called "very valuable." But I disagree that he's not an asset.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 10:19 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Ceetar wrote: Also, small sample size. If he goes 1/3 with a HR and a BB tonight his SLG jumps like 30 points to .239/.369/.359 Meaning he's one good offensive day from going from okay to good and a hot series from great. He's been a Met for almost 200 games, now. And this year, he's, more or less, the same player he was last year.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 10:23 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Fangraphs had him at 1.2 WAR last season, and on a pace for 1.8 this season.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 10:28 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Yeah, but his value, or efficiency, is about the same. By the way, those traits you mention are signs of an aging player losing bat speed. And even though Granderson's always had a good eye for the strike zone, he's walking at a significantly higher rate this year, even for him.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2015 10:40 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I also think Grandy looks better this year than last but its still early and I don't put it past him to wind up worse. I wouldn't doubt his walk rate has improved as a defense against slowing bat. , He probably also misses the MFY PED Pipeline. It's obvious to me the Mets hope he + Cuddy can hold the fort till Conforto and Nimmo come around and I don't think that's a terrible bet at all. Someone has to play right field till then.

Ceetar May 06 2015 10:45 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Fangraphs had him at 1.2 WAR last season, and on a pace for 1.8 this season. Mainly due to crappy defense ratings though. rWAR has him on pace for like 3.6 this year, seems to think he's played better defense.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 11:27 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Yeah, but his value, or efficiency, is about the same. The numbers posted by me and others say not really. By the way, those traits you mention are signs of an aging player losing bat speed. Maybe, but that's speculative. He's certainly an aging player. Show me one who isn't, though. His job, like every player, is to hold his position until somebody takes it from him. No player, younger or older, has. And even though Granderson's always had a good eye for the strike zone, he's walking at a significantly higher rate this year, even for him. Several of us have said as much. How can this be bad?

Centerfield May 06 2015 11:31 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks. Of the 17 RF'ers who qualified last year, Granderson was 13 out of 17 in OPS with .714. That is below average. The median was Brandon Moss of Oakland, at .772. Edgy MD wrote: Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. The Mets have three productive hitters. Wright, d'Arnaud and Duda. Everyone else has an OPS in the .600's. Within the lineup, some of the guys' recent history suggests they will improve (Murphy, for the last three years, has been at .735), some are young and you hope to improve, but Granderson is old, expensive and not likely to improve greatly on his current performance (realistically, he will end up in the low .700's). This is not enough for a corner OF'er making the type of money he makes. There are many reasons the Mets are in first place, but Granderson is not anywhere near one of those reasons. Edgy MD wrote: Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team. Sure. But very seldom are they the second highest paid player on that team. And if they are, they are a disappointment. Imagine at the Granderson press conference, Sandy were to say "We are hoping he can be a middling player, so that we can surround him with excellent, young, cheap talent." The Mets' biggest problem on the field is hitting. The Mets' biggest problem off the field is lack of finances. When you put those together, Curtis Granderson, with his big contract and lack of production, is the Mets' biggest problem. Edgy MD wrote: The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be. Releasing him is a different story. I don't have any solutions yet. I am still trying to get everyone to recognize the problem.

Centerfield May 06 2015 11:33 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: He's looked very different to me. Significantly less slugging, and significantly more on-basing. Yeah, but his value, or efficiency, is about the same. The numbers posted by me and others say not really. Really? His OPS this year, walks and all, is worse than it was last year.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 11:55 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I imagine the average team filled with average guys goes to about 81-81. I don't think that sucks. Of the 17 RF'ers who qualified last year, Granderson was 13 out of 17 in OPS with .714. That is below average. The median was Brandon Moss of Oakland, at .772. Well, I was speaking there more generally about the value of averageness, not necessarily speaking to where he is this year or last year. Last year, nonetheless is last year. This year, he's ninth out of 12 guys in the National League in OPS. Probably better when you adjust for OBP being more valuable than slugging, but he's not where you want him to be, no doubt. Nor do you rip the guys who get you there. You look to replace the sub-average guys, which right now, are at catcher, second, third, and short. Hopefully, some or all of that can be solved internally. The Mets have three productive hitters. Wright, d'Arnaud and Duda. Everyone else has an OPS in the .600's. Within the lineup, some of the guys' recent history suggests they will improve (Murphy, for the last three years, has been at .735), some are young and you hope to improve, but Granderson is old, expensive and not likely to improve greatly on his current performance (realistically, he will end up in the low .700's). This is not enough for a corner OF'er making the type of money he makes. There are many reasons the Mets are in first place, but Granderson is not anywhere near one of those reasons. I certainly didn't assert he's why they are in first. But at the same time, the money is spent either way. Average guys have held the fort for great teams forever, so the excellent players can put them over the top. No use having Jack Clark if you've got Johnnie Lemaster and Rennie Stennett in the infield. Replace them with average guys instead of pokes who undermine Clark's every effort, and the 1980 Giants are a very good team. Sure. But very seldom are they the second highest paid player on that team. And if they are, they are a disappointment. Imagine at the Granderson press conference, Sandy were to say "We are hoping he can be a middling player, so that we can surround him with excellent, young, cheap talent." The Mets' biggest problem on the field is hitting. The Mets' biggest problem off the field is lack of finances. When you put those together, Curtis Granderson, with his big contract and lack of production, is the Mets' biggest problem. I'm not sure what you want done with the contract. The Mets are held to it whether you play the guy or not, release him or not. The Mets would be fools to release Granderson, no matter what resources they had. Any team would be. Releasing him is a different story. I don't have any solutions yet. I am still trying to get everyone to recognize the problem. Well, Vic seemingly advocated for his release, or at least his "dump"-ing, believing perhaps that some player with a better cost/benefit ratio can be gotten. I disagree with the notion of the release, and I have no reason to believe the Mets are ignoring deals that are out there that would allow them to improve by moving Granderson. I do have solutions. They're just not easy ones. You coach your players, keep your eye out for new ones, hoping either the starters improve or the reserves and/or farmhands improve enough to take their jobs. You work hard, run a tight ship, keep analyzing the data, and make the smartest possible choices, even if they're less than gratifying. You know that you've looked closer than anybody at the alternatives. So if not Granderson, it's Mayberry and/or Niewenhuis. Nothing in the ledger says they'd be better. So then you look to Vegas and think about guys like Ceciliani, Vaughn, Tajeiron, and maybe Castellanos. If one of them is to take his job, they'll probably take Niewenuis' first, so maybe that's where the advocacy should be focused. "Promote one of these guys ripping the ball in the PCL!! Nieuwenhuis sucks!!" It's a tough call to make. The guys the team ideally would like to take the place of Granderson and Cuddyer are Nimmo and Conforto. You understand why they don't want to pull the trigger on them just yet. So they do what teams do: bide their time, try and make adjustments and scratch things out, generally choosing evolution before revolution. It's not as satisfying for the sake of drama, but it has gotten them this far, hasn't it?

Centerfield May 06 2015 12:02 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

The disconnect between you and me is that you are focused on what to do about the issue (productive thought). I am all about grumbling and pointing fingers. I am not advocating for Granderson's release. I haven't thought things through enough to see if this is a good move. I'm advocating for increased complaining about Granderson.

Ceetar May 06 2015 12:12 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

also, OPS isn't park-adjusted. Granderson is 12th of 24 RFers in wRC+ (which is weighted Runs Created) 13th in wOBA. And he's literally first in BB/K. You can argue all you want about a slower bat. The time will come when pitchers will adjust to him based on this stat, with more pitches down the middle. If his bat is slower, he'll miss a bunch of those, if he's not a shell of himself (or you know, even if he's last year Curtis) he'll drive a few of them out of the part and his ISO will soar. Except this might not be true. Granderson is seeing roughly a league average amount of balls in the zone. He's just swinging a lot less. The average hitter swings at 30% of pitches out of the strike zone. Granderson swings at 14.4%. Pitchers, for whatever reason, are throwing him more fastballs and less sliders. Sample size maybe? Or perhaps simply that his patience is getting him into hitters counts, and therefore fastball counts. He's getting a lot fewer first pitch strikes, so that puts him in the drivers seat to begin with. Why are pitchers starting out with ball one? It's not like Curtis has ever been a free swinger. Maybe the answer here is that pitchers are nibbling around the edges as a result of often starting out 1-0? They know he can punish them, and they nibble and eventually lose him.

d'Kong76 May 06 2015 12:17 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

As FK kinda said before, his UAHBPIP is probably quite high too.

Centerfield May 06 2015 12:24 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

What I'm basically saying here is that the only reason Granderson isn't getting skewered by the fans and media is because he's white.

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 06 2015 12:27 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

#Fact

d'Kong76 May 06 2015 12:29 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Damn honkeys!

themetfairy May 06 2015 01:25 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Centerfield wrote: The disconnect between you and me is that you are focused on what to do about the issue (productive thought). I am all about grumbling and pointing fingers. I am not advocating for Granderson's release. I haven't thought things through enough to see if this is a good move. I'm advocating for increased complaining about Granderson. I can do that. Every so often I give myself license to be my grandfather's granddaughter and complain just because I don't like a player. If you want to start complaining about Cuddyer, I'll really get on board the Bitch&Moan train. Especially if he's going to keep on stepping on Lagares!

G-Fafif May 06 2015 02:13 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

themetfairy wrote: Centerfield wrote: I am all about grumbling and pointing fingers. Every so often I give myself license to ... complain just because I don't like a player. This, too, is what fandom is sometimes about in small to moderate doses. I give Granderson a little more of a berth than I'm inclined to because I realize he truly sucked last April and then sucked less (occasionally much less) as the year went on, though not enough to justify the contract. There is also something about how much good-guyness he projects that is vaguely offputting, even if it's far preferable to the jerk store calling to say they ran out of him. Cuddyer and Lagares need to tape a stripe between a little bit of left and all of left-center like Felix and Oscar or Greg and Marcia so Cuddyer knows where he's not supposed to stray.

batmagadanleadoff May 06 2015 02:26 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Vic Sage wrote: So if the Mets had Stargell and Aaron and Bench and Morgan and Seaver and Carlton in their primes on the same team, it'd be OK with you if my mother was their starting shortstop, right? i don't know... how good is your mom? Can she throw the ball accurately to first? sign her up! To tell you the truth, I don't know. I never saw her play the position. (I shouldn't be replying. This is gonna turn into bad mother jokes).

Benjamin Grimm May 06 2015 02:28 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I do wish that Curtis didn't have a four-year contract. But on the other hand, I hope that he turns it around to such a degree that we'll be glad to have him on the team in 2017.

Edgy MD May 06 2015 06:02 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Boy, that homer sure sucked down the line in a hurry.

Centerfield May 06 2015 06:24 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Was it Frayed Knot that started the Murphy thread last week? Lol. Granderson: Hey CF, FUCK YOU.

Ceetar May 06 2015 07:09 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis Granderson .242/.364/.363. wRC+ 115. I called 1/3 with a HR/BB. he's 1/3 with a HR. (and he should've had that walk)

Frayed Knot May 06 2015 07:14 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

If he was playing back w/the Yanx he'd have two HRs today. Or maybe even three, I think there was a check-swing foul earlier that might have gone out of YSIII.

themetfairy May 06 2015 08:04 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson's post-game interview - "Fuck You CPF!"

Edgy MD May 06 2015 08:06 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Dilson managing the post-game OK.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 06 2015 11:31 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

G-Fafif wrote: There is also something about how much good-guyness he projects that is vaguely offputting, even if it's far preferable to the jerk store calling to say they ran out of him. Yeah, I don't get this at all. For all the good-guyness, I haven't ever gotten a faint whiff of phony or holier-than-thou or anything like any kind of off-smell. Also, psst! OPS isn't the world's best measure of offensive production, you guys! (By and large, because it equates OBP and slugging in terms of value.)

Edgy MD May 07 2015 06:10 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Yeah. Curtis is alright. Curtis is your buddy. Curtis is the kind of guy you can trust, the kind of guy you can drink a beer with, the kind of guy who doesn't mind if you puke in his car. Curtis!

Benjamin Grimm May 07 2015 07:22 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Suddenly, I wanna puke in his car!

Centerfield May 07 2015 07:25 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

In keeping with the spirit of this thread (and a few others) I've never really thought Matt Harvey was all that either. I mean the guy gave up a HR to Chase Utley, and Utley is hitting .100. Totally overrated.

Nymr83 May 07 2015 07:50 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

this thread is sitting here, mocking me. I had Curtis Granderson in a Daily Fantasy league lineup last night all set to go... then i saw there was a chance of rain in Pittsburgh and swapped Gerrit Cole out for a cheaper pitcher. that gave me the space top "upgrade" from CG, who i liked in last night's matchup, to a more expensive outfielder. whoops. Curtis isn't worth the contract the Mets gave him, but he's nowhere near the Jason Bay "please bench me" level. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a Neanderthal who still hasn't seen the value of a Walk. Edgy wrote: Boy, that homer sure sucked down the line in a hurry. I wish this was one of those forums where you could "like" posts, because thats all i really wanted to do with this one

MFS62 May 07 2015 08:21 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: Dilson managing the post-game OK. Was that the one on TV? I caught the one on radio (weak signal/ tons of static) and he did it in English. He did OK. Later Also - I've noticed that when post game reporters interview a young Spanish speaking player, if the player doesn't seem to understand a particular word, the reporters repeat the question using the same word. Maybe this is fodder for the Mets on the Air thread.

Edgy MD May 07 2015 08:30 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

It was on the radio. The accent was certainly thick. But most times you get a Latin American-born 21-year-old up there to do a live interview, it's a tough situation to put him in. But he seemed to understand the gist of the questions and twist out coherent if brief-ish answers. Not a bad showing by the first Colombian-born Met.

MFS62 May 07 2015 08:51 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: It was on the radio. The accent was certainly thick. But most times you get a Latin American-born 21-year-old up there to do a live interview, it's a tough situation to put him in. But he seemed to understand the gist of the questions and twist out coherent if brief-ish answers. Not a bad showing by the first Colombian-born Met. Exactly. And I hope he'll get plenty of opportunities to hone his major league post game, Hero-of-the-game, interview skills as the season unfolds. Later

G-Fafif May 07 2015 09:01 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: G-Fafif wrote: There is also something about how much good-guyness he projects that is vaguely offputting, even if it's far preferable to the jerk store calling to say they ran out of him. Yeah, I don't get this at all. For all the good-guyness, I haven't ever gotten a faint whiff of phony or holier-than-thou or anything like any kind of off-smell. I agree there's nothing necessarily nefarious about him. Sometimes I take after TMF's grandfather, too, and can't particularly warm up to a given player. Would probably help if he hadn't been an MFY and the Mets hadn't positioned him as Wright's co-star headed into 2014, like "this is what we need -- a Yankee!"

Mets – Willets Point May 07 2015 09:08 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

CF must now start all "sucks" threads for underperforming players until his mojo wears off.

batmagadanleadoff May 07 2015 10:28 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

G-Fafif wrote: G-Fafif wrote: There is also something about how much good-guyness he projects that is vaguely offputting, even if it's far preferable to the jerk store calling to say they ran out of him. Yeah, I don't get this at all. For all the good-guyness, I haven't ever gotten a faint whiff of phony or holier-than-thou or anything like any kind of off-smell. I agree there's nothing necessarily nefarious about him.... Would probably help if he hadn't been an MFY and the Mets hadn't positioned him as Wright's co-star headed into 2014, like "this is what we need -- a Yankee!" This is about how I feel about Granderson. I got nothing against the guy personally, but to me, he's just one more symbol of how far this franchise had fallen. I mean, they marketed this guy like he was Beltran2005 coming to the Mets in his superstar prime. Yearbook and program covers and all that and he's an aging player in obvious decline. NTTAWWT. Everybody gets old, if they're lucky enough. But he's a corner outfielder and ideally, your corner outfielders should be lethal hitters.

Lefty Specialist May 07 2015 01:03 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

The thing is, they didn't sign Curtis Granderson to be a leadoff hitter. I get that he can take a walk, and that's useful leading off. But he was signed to be a thumper in the middle of the lineup. He's not getting $15MM a year to be Dexter Fowler.

Ceetar May 07 2015 01:09 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Lefty Specialist wrote: The thing is, they didn't sign Curtis Granderson to be a leadoff hitter. I get that he can take a walk, and that's useful leading off. But he was signed to be a thumper in the middle of the lineup. He's not getting $15MM a year to be Dexter Fowler. who says what he was signed for? He was signed to make the Mets better. He's doing that. Runs don't count more or less based on the salary of the player.

Edgy MD May 07 2015 01:28 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I don't know. He's signed to do what the manager tells him. That he accepts that would be considered a virtue in some quarters. And a highly compensated hitter who says, "I came here to bat cleanup so bat me cleanup" — even after that had been reasonably shown to be a less effective way to help the team — would be considered a prima donna.

MFS62 May 07 2015 01:44 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Speaking of prima donnas, what about the case in which arguably the greatest shortstop ever to play the game joins a team and the incumbent shortstop for that team refuses to give up the position? OK, maybe or maybe not pertinent to the Granderson discussion, but the alarm on my "Time to Take a Shot at Jeter" clock just went off. Later

Gwreck May 10 2015 12:47 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis checking in again on this thread.

G-Fafif May 11 2015 07:31 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

The glove on the head when he does interviews after wins: almost endearing. Contributing to wins: very endearing.

Centerfield May 11 2015 07:55 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I hope he checks in about 27 more times.

themetfairy May 15 2015 05:45 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

He sucks in the field as well.

Centerfield May 27 2015 07:53 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

So Granderson has sucked a lot less in May than he did in April (.755 OPS vs. .682). He is still only 17th out of 23 RF'ers who qualify, but it's progress. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/ ... order/true I found this list pretty interesting. First off, below Granderson are a couple of dodged bullets. Matt Kemp, Carlos Gonzalez and Carlos Beltran all look shot. Jason Heyward is struggling pretty bad as well. None of them are in sniffing distance of .700. And only 6 RF'ers in total are above .800, which at .350 OBP and .450 SLG, would seem pretty attainable for a corner outfielder. Josh Reddick is #3 on that list and I have to admit I have no idea who he is. Giancarlo Stanton only has an .846 OPS. I would have bet my house he would be at least in the mid .900's.

Frayed Knot May 27 2015 10:21 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Tough to know what to make of Grandy's "surge" lately. Last season he OPS'd 468 in April, then jumped to 838 & 933 in May & June, kind of split the difference in July with a 753 before plummeting to 415 in August, then back up to 918 in September So while I'd love to say that he's figured something out and is in for a lengthy streak, we've seen this movie before and it adds up to lots of movement but nothing resembling a trend.

Ashie62 May 27 2015 10:37 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis is a polite handsome man.

batmagadanleadoff May 28 2015 11:44 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Frayed Knot wrote: Tough to know what to make of Grandy's "surge" lately. Last season he OPS'd 468 in April, then jumped to 838 & 933 in May & June, kind of split the difference in July with a 753 before plummeting to 415 in August, then back up to 918 in September So while I'd love to say that he's figured something out and is in for a lengthy streak, we've seen this movie before and it adds up to lots of movement but nothing resembling a trend. Not that I know anything, but If I had to guess, I'd guess that this is just a random clustering of good hits -- and not a trend.

Centerfield Jun 04 2015 08:03 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson sucks again. His recent slump has sunk his OPS down below .700 (.693). That ranks him 20th of the 24 RF'ers who qualify.

Ceetar Jun 04 2015 09:18 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

actually he's exactly average at a 100 wRC+ Which puts him behind Duda, Tejada, Cuddyer,and Murphy on the team. It's kind of nice that at least 3-4 guys are hitting above average though.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 04 2015 05:11 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I think Dillons Gee wants in on this thread. Sounds like he was a bit unlucky with his fielders yesterday but I'm not so sure this guy, who in addition to having an even shot at sucking moose cock most nights gets hurt way too often, is worth 20% fewer starts for deGrom and Hovvey. Although fewer Neese appearances is nice. What I'm saying is, if we're going to stretch out the rotation let's do it with Matz or Montero or that guy from Princeton or some other wildcard.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 04 2015 05:25 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Ceetar wrote: actually he's exactly average at a 100 wRC+ Which puts him behind Duda, Tejada, Cuddyer,and Murphy on the team. Just glancing at that without really scrutininzing those numbers, that's a disaster. Not that I really need to study numbers to know that the Mets offense isn't very good right now. Half the starters are at or below average according to your numbers. And more importantly, ideally -- if everyone can't be above average, you wanna be above average at the positions that are expected to generate more of the offense, and below average at the traditionally weaker hitting positions. Tejada and Murph are middle infielders, and not of the Sandberg/Ripken/A-Rod variety. The Mets offense is not playoff quality right now, no matter how you spin it.

Ceetar Jun 04 2015 06:12 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: actually he's exactly average at a 100 wRC+ Which puts him behind Duda, Tejada, Cuddyer,and Murphy on the team. Just glancing at that without really scrutininzing those numbers, that's a disaster. Not that I really need to study numbers to know that the Mets offense isn't very good right now. Half the starters are at or below average according to your numbers. And more importantly, ideally -- if everyone can't be above average, you wanna be above average at the positions that are expected to generate more of the offense, and below average at the traditionally weaker hitting positions. Tejada and Murph are middle infielders, and not of the Sandberg/Ripken/A-Rod variety. The Mets offense is not playoff quality right now, no matter how you spin it. right now as in the 8* (9?) guys you're running out there, or right now as in the past week the way it looks or what? I mean, if Granderson has another hot streak and Lagares starts driving the ball more effectively, well, suddenly yes they are a playoff team. (nevermind that the numbers say they ARE right now) Actually it's exactly half. 4 are above (counting Tejada's small sample size, but he's the one in the lineup right now) Granderson is average, and 4 are below. (and that's counting the pitcher.) And that's league average, not average for the position. As you pointed out, RF is a stronger position and the leaguewide RFer has a 109 wRC+. But flip that with the leaguewide SS wRC+ of 81 and suddenly Flores is above average. "power positions" are silly anyway. it doesn't matter what position they play in the batting order. That plays into overall team construction, sure, but on a day to day basic it doesn't matter in the least bit. In fact, you'd rather the guys at the weak hit ting positions to be doing well. so d'Arnaud back and Flores outhitting his defense is valuable, because even if you have a crappy RFer hitting only wRC+ at 100, that's much much better than if you had a crappy SS. It's almost 20 percent better. AND it's easier to find a slight improvement to merely good in RF than it is at SS. Of course, it's sorta unfair to pick the valleys and proclaim Granderson as a waste, because in two weeks he could have his numbers back up to good.

Ashie62 Jun 04 2015 07:51 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Cuddyer sucks, oops wrong thread.

Nymr83 Jun 05 2015 08:17 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis sucks so bad he has to fall behind 0-2 even when he draws a walk!

Centerfield Jun 08 2015 07:46 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson, with his 2 HR's yesterday, saw his OPS jump more than 30 points! At .737, Granderson is now 16th out of 23 rightfielders in the bigs who qualify. His OPS by month: April: .682 May: .750 June: .857 July: SKY IS THE LIMIT!

Edgy MD Jun 08 2015 07:55 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson now eighth out of 13 qualifying National League outfielders in OpS after yesterday's outburst. He's sixth in WAR and runs created, fifth in WPA Amazing is that Nick Markakis is rocking an extreme Curtis performance of his own — sporting a shiny .383 OBP but slugging zero homers. It basically comes down to All-Stars/MVP candidates: Bryce Harper Fringey All-Star Candidates: Andre Ethier, Gregory Polanco, Giancarlo Stanton (who likely makes the AS team on name recognition anyhow) Useful Guys: Curtis Granderson, Carlos Gonzalez, Ryan Braun, Jason Heyward, Matt Kemp, Nick Markakis Unproductive Guys: Jorge Soler, Ender Inciarte, Mark Trumbo, Jay Bruce

Ceetar Jun 08 2015 08:09 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson at wRC+ 111 is higher than the RF average 110 and the NL RF average 105. I mean, you want better for him but above average has to be above 'suck' right? (Cuddyer at 110)

Nymr83 Jun 10 2015 08:18 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

We interrupt tonight's game with another update from Curtis, currently 2 for 3 with a walk and a double

d'Kong76 Jun 10 2015 08:22 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Conrotolations! haha

Gwreck Jun 10 2015 09:12 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Nymr83 wrote: We interrupt tonight's game with another update from Curtis, currently 2 for 3 with a walk and a double Yabbut: His first hit was off the wall in center field but he misread it and only got to first; He played a single into a double while in right (properly charged with an error) He was slow to get a double out of the corner, allowing a runner to score from first on a double (with less than 2 outs) Was thrown out at home in the first on a ball to short left. Last one might have been Teufel's fault but Curtis could still use a benching tomorrow.

Edgy MD Jun 11 2015 05:12 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis Granderson is the best thing that ever happened to Eric Campbell. Plawecki, too.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 11 2015 06:19 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Capmbell. Jesus Christmas. BTW, Kirk DFA'ed by Anaheim. Hmm?

Edgy MD Jun 29 2015 11:21 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson now third in WAR (Fangraphs) among NL rightfielders. I mean, third in a two-man race, but still. [list:2tsnlk2x]1) Bryce Harper (Nationals): 4.9 2) Giancarlo Stanton (Marlins): 3.7 3) Curtis Granderson (Mets): 1.9 4) Jason Heyward (Cardinals): 1.8 5) Nick Markakis (Braves): 1.2 6) Andre Ethier (Dodgers): 1.1 7) Jay Bruce (Reds): 1.1 8) Ryan Braun (Brewers): 0.9 9) Ender Inciarte (Diamondbacks): 0.9 10) Gregor Blanco (Giants): 0.8 11) Yasiel Puig (Dodgers): 0.8 12) Mark Trumbo (Diamondbacks): 0.7 13) Jorge Soler (Cubs): 0.5 14) Clint Robinson (Nationals): 0.4 15) Justin Maxwell (Giants): 0.3 16) Yasmany Tomas (Diamondbacks): 0.3 17) Gregory Polanco (Pirates): 0.2 18) Carlos Gonzalez (Rockies): 0.1 19) Jeff Francoeur (Phillies): -0.2 20) Grady Sizemore (Phillies): -0.6 21) Matt Kemp (Padres): -0.8[/list:u:2tsnlk2x] Could you imagine if we were trotting Kemp out there night after night?

Nymr83 Jun 29 2015 12:57 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Interesting that Curtis has 1.9 and has had most of our PAs in RF, but Baseball Reference list the Mets with .9 WAR in RF this year? [url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/team_compare.cgi?lg=MLB&year=2015 I'm think there is something I'm missing here

Ceetar Jun 29 2015 01:03 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

one, or both, of the sites calculates the positional stuff weirdly, about who plays there and who counts as a "Right fielder" and does or doesn't count the pinch-hitter stuff..

Edgy MD Jun 29 2015 01:04 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

1) I'm using FanGraphs which calculates WAR differently. 2) Kirk Nieuwenhuis has been a healthy little drain in his sporadic appearances.

Edgy MD Jul 26 2015 07:39 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis Granderson sucks. He sucks victory from the mouth of defeat.

Centerfield Jul 27 2015 07:04 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

11th out of 23 qualified rightfielders in OPS (.766). I would gladly take this through the end of the season.

Centerfield Aug 03 2015 07:54 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Up to .790 in OPS. Now 9th in RF'ers in OPS!

Nymr83 Aug 03 2015 08:53 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis would like to say "f u" to this thread,

Centerfield Aug 13 2015 11:51 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis Granderson has raised his OPS by more than 100 points since the start of this thread.

d'Kong76 Aug 13 2015 12:05 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

By more than 150 would have been better, let the Sucks continue!

Frayed Knot Aug 13 2015 12:10 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

He really sucks at sucking these days.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2015 04:57 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Centerfield wrote: Curtis Granderson has raised his OPS by more than 100 points since the start of this thread. Ah, The Boobird's Failsafe.

Nymr83 Aug 21 2015 01:47 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Has anyone checked on Curtis lately? all the way up to .251/.342/.455, 22 HRs. Baseball Reference WAR (3.3) has him 20th among NL position players. suck that!

Frayed Knot Aug 21 2015 01:53 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Has anyone checked his vs LHP splits lately? -- .146/.191/.214 ... That DOES Suck!! He should be in prime position for a RH-hitting platoon partner, if only we had a RH-hitting platoon partner who was actually hitting these days.

Nymr83 Aug 21 2015 01:56 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

yeah, he should likely be in a platoon, especially since said platoon ciould move Cespedes to a corner and get Lagares' glove into the lineup, you'd come out ahead defensively even if you only broke even on offense,

Lefty Specialist Aug 21 2015 03:57 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Problem is, as we all know, his platoon partner would be Coach Cuddy, who singles occasionally but does little else these days.

Frayed Knot Aug 21 2015 04:45 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Or if the RFD in John Mayberry RFD Jr didn't stand for Really Fucking Drop as in that's what his v-LHP stats did this year, from an OPS of right around 840 for his career to [u:2l1msxxf]628[/u:2l1msxxf] this season !! Hell, that's worse than what his career v-RHP had been (646) As I've said before, it was bad enough that injuries (Wright, d'Arnaud) and regression (Lagares, Duda) and at times slower than hoped for development (Flores, Herrera) wrecked havoc on the offense, but it may have been just as damaging that virtually every one of the backup plans failed too: Mayberry, Nieuwenhuis, Ceciliani, Campbell, Recker, Monell, Muno, etc. on edit: the neuf-tet of Campbell, Nieuwenhuis, Mayberry, Plawecki, Ceciliani, Recker, Monell, Muno & Herrera combined to eat up 828 Plate Appearances this season while hitting a collective .182/.254/.294 w/a 26.4% K-rate

Edgy MD Aug 21 2015 06:34 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Cuddyer would be just fine in that role. And it would take him out of the mix of the left/center platoon between Conforto and Lagares with Cespedes taking swinging back and forth. It would be an awesome September, with Cespedes and maybe Duda as the only guys you could expect to be playing everyday.

Frayed Knot Aug 21 2015 07:25 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Cuddyer would certainly be capable of filling that role, but he hasn't hit any better since his DL stint than he was before it.

Edgy MD Aug 21 2015 09:21 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

He's been FAR better against lefties than Granderson. But he may be needed at first now.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 31 2015 09:27 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis is, apparently, a moon-landing skeptic.

Edgy MD Aug 31 2015 09:30 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

He's a moon landing skeptic with as many runs scored as Andrew McCutcheon.

d'Kong76 Aug 31 2015 09:35 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Wonder where he stands on dinosaurs? Funny, the dino thing came up yesterday or day before on the radio broadcast.

Ceetar Aug 31 2015 09:53 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

d'Kong76 wrote: Wonder where he stands on dinosaurs? Funny, the dino thing came up yesterday or day before on the radio broadcast. Cause Carl Everett was one of the trivia answers for 'players who played 200 games for both Sox and Mets'

Frayed Knot Sep 14 2015 06:07 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Granderson's OBP since ASG = .403 Since Sept 1st = .472

Edgy MD Sep 14 2015 06:25 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Like, it's time to start wondering what kind of MVP points he'll earn. He's second in the league in fWAR among rightfieldios. [list]1) Bryce Harper Nationals: 8.5 2) Curtis Granderson: 4.9 3) Jason Heyward: 4.5 4) Giancarlo Stanton: 3.7 5) Ryan Braun: 2.8 6) Carlos Gonzalez: 2.7 7) Andre Ethier: 2.6 8) Ender Inciarte: 2.5 9) Gregory Polanco: 1.8 10) Hunter Pence: 1.6 11) Yasiel Puig: 1.5 12) Nick Markakis: 1.4 13) Aaron Altherr: 0.9 14) Chris Denorfia: 0.7 15) Jay Bruce: 0.7[/list:u] Jay Bruce: aka the guy the Mets were supposed to get in addition to their deadline haul, to prove they were serious.

Gwreck Sep 14 2015 08:25 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis would not be on my NL MVP Ballot: 1. Bryce Harper 2. Zack Greinke 3. Paul Goldschmidt 4. Joey Votto 5. Jake Arrieta 6. Clayton Kershaw 7. Buster Posey 8. Anthony Rizzo 9. A.J. Pollock 10. Nolan Arenado Which is not to say he's not having a very good season, but MVP talk is silly, I think.

Edgy MD Sep 14 2015 08:34 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Well, I'm not saying he's the MVP.

Gwreck Sep 14 2015 08:35 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

And I'm saying he's not worthy of "MVP points" as he isn't one of the 10 most valuable players in the league.

Ceetar Sep 14 2015 08:37 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Gwreck wrote: And I'm saying he's not worthy of "MVP points" as he isn't one of the 10 most valuable players in the league. value is only part of it. What about 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.

Edgy MD Sep 14 2015 08:39 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

And I'm saying he's not worthy of "MVP points" as he isn't one of the 10 most valuable players in the league. Yes, I understand that.

TransMonk Sep 14 2015 08:53 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I'd crown him the Mets' offensive MVP this season, but he doesn't have the "wow" factor that will get him much national attention. But, that's also one of my favorite things about the year he is having.

Centerfield Sep 14 2015 09:11 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

He has the highest OWAR on the team, so you can certainly make that case. Most of that is a result of staying healthy all year long, but that too is a valuable trait. And like in the other thread, I am happy to eat crow since he has played lights out in the second half, but this does not mean that the criticism of Granderson was unwarranted. At the time this thread started, he had an OPS of .690. He had posted an OPS of .714 in his first year with the Mets. The year before that, while playing in a little league field, he posted .724. I'm thrilled he turned it around, but that doesn't mean he didn't suck, or that I was wrong to point out that he sucked.

TransMonk Sep 15 2015 11:56 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis Granderson Is Your Favorite Met

batmagadanleadoff Sep 15 2015 12:34 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Ceetar wrote: Gwreck wrote: And I'm saying he's not worthy of "MVP points" as he isn't one of the 10 most valuable players in the league. value is only part of it. What about 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. Value is probably most of it, and in practicality, all of it. That third paragraph might, might, just might be used to separate players that are otherwise statistically inseparable . You're not saying that Granderson's good-guyness might get him this year's MVP, or in the top 10? Are you?

Centerfield Sep 15 2015 12:42 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I was thinking about this, I think the best thing to do would be to trade Granderson this offseason. His value is likely the highest it will be during his contract. It frees up a corner OF spot that can be used to sign someone to offset the likely loss of Cespedes. Or, alternatively, moving his contract frees up money to resign Cespedes. I love what he has done this year, but I have my doubts that this can be sustained.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 15 2015 12:44 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

If they trade Granderson, then I think they're going to have to add two outfielders to go with Conforto. I'm happy with Cuddyer and Lagares as reserves, but I don't know if I want to revert to an outfield where they're both starting every day.

TransMonk Sep 15 2015 01:21 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

#offseasonproblems

Ceetar Sep 15 2015 01:28 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: Gwreck wrote: And I'm saying he's not worthy of "MVP points" as he isn't one of the 10 most valuable players in the league. value is only part of it. What about 3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort. Value is probably most of it, and in practicality, all of it. That third paragraph might, might, just might be used to separate players that are otherwise statistically inseparable . You're not saying that Granderson's good-guyness might get him this year's MVP, or in the top 10? Are you? I'm not a voter (unless you count the IBWAA, which you don't) so it doens't matter. My point was that it's highly subjective. And probably intentionally so. Carlos Beltran in 2005 finished 12th in MVP voting. (granted, 90 games) in 2008 CC Sabathia pitched 17 games, half a season, and was 4th. Matt Holliday in 2009 got 16th place for 63 games with the Cardinals. Hanley Ramirez in 86 games with the Dodgers in 2013 finished 8th So there's plenty of precedent for these guys getting votes, if not #1 votes. Unless he goes completely cold, I can almost guarantee he'll get some votes somewhere.

Edgy MD Sep 15 2015 01:34 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Whether or not your or I think Curtis Granderson deserves MVP ballot support I will nonetheless look for and celebrate if he gets any.

Ceetar Sep 15 2015 01:36 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

I think I'm mixing up MVP candidate discussion here. Oh the bounty. The Riches!

TransMonk Sep 15 2015 01:45 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

This may need to be split, but I was thinking about Harper during our most recent series with the Nats last week. He is having a great year statistically and seems like the odds on favorite to win the NL MVP going away, but nearly every time I have seen him up in a BIG spot for the Nats in a close game this season (and granted, the number of Nats games I've seen this season is tiny when compared to Mets games), he does not come through. I had to look up his 2015 close/late splits: 92 PA, 71 AB, 14 H, 4 2B, 3 HR, 8 RBI, 20 BB, 25 K, .197/.380/.380/.761 (one of those three HRs was last his second of the game last Wednesday vs. the Mets). He's got the big conventional numbers hands down, but splits like this matter to me when I determine a player's value to a team, especially when that team under-performs and misses the post-season (potentially).

Ceetar Sep 15 2015 01:48 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

This may need to be split, but I was thinking about Harper during our most recent series with the Nats last week. He is having a great year statistically and seems like the odds on favorite to win the NL MVP going away, but nearly every time I have seen him up in a BIG spot for the Nats in a close game this season (and granted, the number of Nats games I've seen this season is tiny when compared to Mets games), he does not come through. I had to look up his 2015 close/late splits: 92 PA, 71 AB, 14 H, 4 2B, 3 HR, 8 RBI, 20 BB, 25 K, .197/.380/.380/.761 (one of those three HRs was last his second of the game last Wednesday vs. the Mets). He's got the big conventional numbers hands down, but splits like this matter to me when I determine a player's value to a team, especially when that team under-performs and misses the post-season (potentially). his WPA is way up there though.(win probability added)

Edgy MD Sep 15 2015 01:58 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Fangraphs puts him fourth among National Leaguers in net WPA, as contrasted to his far-and-away first-placiness in WAR. Believe in clutch or not, that's really meaningful to me. [list]1) Anthony Rizzo, Cubs: 6.84 2) Joey Votto, Reds: 6.60 3) Kris Bryant, Cubs: 5.99 4) Bryce Harper, Nationals: 5.58 5) Andrew McCutchen, Pirates: 5.50 6) Paul Goldschmidt, Diamondbacks: 5.35 7) Matt Carpenter, Cardinals: 4.66 8) Curtis Granderson, Mets: 4.42 9) Adrian Gonzalez, Dodgers: 4.16 10) Carlos Gonzalez, Rockies: 3.83 11) David Peralta, Diamondbacks: 3.22 12) Justin Upton, Padres: 3.18 13) Jung-ho Kang, Pirates: 3.02 T14) Buster Posey, Giants: 3.00 T14) Adam Lind, Brewers: 3.00 16) Matt Kemp, Padres: 2.71 T17) Matt Duffy, Giants: 2.30 T17) A.J. Pollock, Diamondbacks: 2.30 19) Daniel Murphy, Mets: 2.20 20) Yunel Escobar, Nationals: 1.99[/list:u] Not as way-up-there as a Nats fan might hope, in the great scheme of things. He's in fact dead fucking last in the league in their clutch performance rating. Nobody else is close! Plus he's a big baby.

Edgy MD Oct 18 2015 06:35 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Curtis Granderson sucks. He sucks baseball out from behind the other side of the fence.

Nymr83 Oct 18 2015 06:40 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Edgy MD wrote: Curtis Granderson sucks. He sucks baseball out from behind the other side of the fence. I couldn't find this thread, because Edgy had already bumped it. Curtis!!!

Centerfield Oct 19 2015 07:48 AM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Mmmm. Crow.

Zvon Oct 23 2015 01:58 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Doesn't his childhood photo look like someone photoshopped his current day head onto his little boy shoulders?

Elster88 Oct 27 2015 07:40 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Bump. I thought this too, once.

Nymr83 Oct 27 2015 07:41 PM Re: Curtis Granderson Sucks

Welcome back thread, may we find reasons to keep you on the front page!