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The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

G-Fafif May 25 2015 06:50 PM

Mark Simon makes the case that for a shortstop who sucks defensively, Wilmer Flores doesn't really suck all that much defensively. Flores entered Monday with minus-1 defensive runs saved this season and a 1.2 Ultimate Zone Rating. Those equate to being a hair below and a hair above average this season. That's not great, but it's certainly not as bad as it could be. We checked in with the folks at Baseball Info Solutions, which devised the defensive runs saved stat (a measure of how effective a player is at turning batted balls into outs and performance at other position-related skills, such as turning double plays), for a comprehensive explanation of how Flores could rate so well, despite his many early season miscues. Scott Spratt, one of the Baseball Info Solutions research analysts, made three points on Flores' play. 1. “We noticed that Flores looks like he's doing a good job of shading himself to account for the batter's tendencies and bat side. I think that may be helping him get to some balls that not every player makes.” 2. “It looks like many of Flores' best plays have been the result of great throws. It looks like he's maybe making up for some of his errors by making those unexpected plays with good throws.” 3. "Almost all of [Flores'] misplays and errors result in one lost base, which is relatively minor in terms of run value, compared to something like a failed conversion of a deep fly ball by an outfielder or a groundball down the line that becomes a double. If he is plus in terms of range or throwing, he can more easily offset a high volume of mistakes by converting extra balls.”

d'Kong76 May 25 2015 07:12 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

May the unsucking continue!

Ceetar May 25 2015 07:29 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Inside edge doesn't love him much. [url]http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=3&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=15,d

John Cougar Lunchbucket May 25 2015 07:36 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Eyewitness Defense doesn't think he's all that great with the old leather either but the guy's on pace for 27 friggin home runs this year. 27!!

Fman99 May 25 2015 08:05 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

He's heroically super awesome.

themetfairy May 25 2015 08:58 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

You're all going to learn to love me.

MFS62 May 26 2015 07:43 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

From the Simon article: 1. “We noticed that Flores looks like he's doing a good job of shading himself to account for the batter's tendencies and bat side. I think that may be helping him get to some balls that not every player makes.” That's funny because it is the explanation MFY fans would give when talking about Jeter's limited range. I've also used it to describe how NL MVP Dick Groat played short. (IIRC it was in my Historic KTE about the 1960 Pirates) Later

TransMonk May 26 2015 08:47 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I enjoy watching Flores as a hitter and I am slowly becoming a fan. He is not perfect defensively, but if he can make the routine plays and hit 25 HRs, I can live with limited range.

Ceetar May 26 2015 09:00 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

TransMonk wrote: I enjoy watching Flores as a hitter and I am slowly becoming a fan. He is not perfect defensively, but if he can make the routine plays and hit 25 HRs, I can live with limited range. Only Ian Desmond makes a lower percentage of routine plays at SS this year.

Edgy MD May 26 2015 09:19 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Yeah, but (1) that's not necessarily the bottom line, and (2) one of our stupid offseason fake Mets scandals was the Mets' intransigence in not giving up Syndergaard for Desmond.

TransMonk May 26 2015 09:23 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I'm not saying Wilmer has been great at routine plays, but I do think he's gotten better in recent weeks. If he can stop booting balls right at him, I'm OK with him not being able to cover a ton of ground. Flores has as many HRs as any other ML SS and (especially on this team) that's not nothing.

Frayed Knot May 26 2015 09:51 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Errors committed at SS this season: Marcus Semien (OAK) - 17 ... SEVEN-FRICKIN'-TEEN!?! Ian Desmond (WAS) - 12 Danny Santana (MIN) - 10 Elvis Andrus (TEX) - 10 Starlin Castro (CHC) - 9 Wilmer Flores (NYM) - 9 And, yes, errors don't tell the whole story. But SSs (and/or 3Bmen) almost always have the highest number of errors on the team so comparing Wilmer's errors to someone else not at that position is totally meaningless. 20+, if he continues the pace he's at for the majority of the season, would be high but not absurdly so (50+ for Semien on the other hand ... ) and it's not like we'd have ZERO errors at SS with someone else out there. He seems to be getting a bit more comfortable out there (maybe wishful thinking) and I think a lot of the criticism came from the timing of some of his early miscues (flubbed GiDPs, etc.).

G-Fafif May 26 2015 10:05 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

"Almost all of [Flores'] misplays and errors result in one lost base, which is relatively minor in terms of run value, compared to something like a failed conversion of a deep fly ball by an outfielder or a groundball down the line that becomes a double. If he is plus in terms of range or throwing, he can more easily offset a high volume of mistakes by converting extra balls.” The one lost base/run value component turns the idea of the importance of a "two-out shortstop" on its head, which may not be all that new (Moneyball, et al), but I found fascinating the idea that a Wilmer screwup wouldn't be as bad a ball getting by one of the corner positions. That would probably happen less frequently, however. He really does seem like a smart player who works hard and improves. That gives me hope. That and the 27-HR pace.

Centerfield May 26 2015 10:33 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: Errors committed at SS this season: Marcus Semien (OAK) - 17 ... SEVEN-FRICKIN'-TEEN!?! Fifty plus. I know the A's have always been on the forefront in terms of seminal ideas, but this one may blow up right in their face. I mean, fifty plus errors, if it comes to it, can leave anyone feeling a little testy.

Zvon May 26 2015 01:14 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

So lets see where we're at with Flores. Games: 40 Homeruns: 7 RBI: 19 Errors: 9 Until he has more homers than errors he's on my shit list.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 26 2015 01:17 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Centerfield wrote: Errors committed at SS this season: Marcus Semien (OAK) - 17 ... SEVEN-FRICKIN'-TEEN!?! Fifty plus. I know the A's have always been on the forefront in terms of seminal ideas, but this one may blow up right in their face. I mean, fifty plus errors, if it comes to it, can leave anyone feeling a little testy. When you're thinking about a guy who's more comfortable with his bat in hand than putting a glove on it, you have to figure on a few dribblers to trickle past every now and again. But, yeah, that sort of leakage is just sloppy. You've got to handle your balls better than that, son, or you'll be stuck sitting around with a squeeze bottle and a towel.

Frayed Knot May 26 2015 01:26 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

So lets see where we're at with Flores. Games: 40 Homeruns: 7 RBI: 19 Errors: 9 Until he has more homers than errors he's on my shit list. What percentage of everyday shortstops do you suppose out-homer their error total in a given year? ... I don't know either, but I'd venture a guess that it's decidedly in the minority, both now and in the history of the game.

Benjamin Grimm May 26 2015 01:35 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Ozzie Smith, over his 19-year career, had more than 10 errors for every home run he hit. (281 errors, 28 home runs.)

d'Kong76 May 26 2015 01:49 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Everyone on Frayed's list above is in the same boat... Marcus Semien (OAK) - 17 ... SEVEN-FRICKIN'-TEEN!?!..6HR Ian Desmond (WAS) - 12 ... 4HR Danny Santana (MIN) - 10 ... 0 HR Elvis Andrus (TEX) - 10 ... 2HR Starlin Castro (CHC) - 9 ... 3HR Wilmer Flores (NYM) - 9 ... 7HR

Ceetar May 26 2015 01:51 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

How about he out-homers the routine plays he's botched? because he's not doing that either.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 26 2015 01:52 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

A cursory review of the last few years makes it seem like the more-boom-than-boot rate is around 10 percent these days. 3 out of 22 qualifying shortstops did it last year (Jhonny Peralta, Jordy Mercer, and Jimmy Rollins), with Ian Desmond and Alexei Ramirez achieving the rare push.

Edgy MD May 26 2015 01:54 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

What percentage of everyday shortstops do you suppose out-homer their error total in a given year? ... I don't know either, but I'd venture a guess that it's decidedly in the minority, both now and in the history of the game. The always-remarkable Cal Ripken did it 13 times in 14 full seasons at shortstop. (And with him, a full season was a full season.) The 14th year, he was dead even: 26 errors and 26 homers. LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: A cursory review of the last few years makes it seem like the more-boom-than-boot rate is around 10 percent these days. 3 out of 22 qualifying shortstops did it last year (Jhonny Peralta, Jordy Mercer, and Jimmy Rollins), with Ian Desmond and Alexei Ramirez achieving the rare push. Hey, you can believe what you want, but the statistics say oth... oh, wait.

Zvon May 26 2015 01:57 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

So lets see where we're at with Flores. Games: 40 Homeruns: 7 RBI: 19 Errors: 9 Until he has more homers than errors he's on my shit list. What percentage of everyday shortstops do you suppose out-homer their error total in a given year? ... I don't know either, but I'd venture a guess that it's decidedly in the minority, both now and in the history of the game. This isn't an evaluation of the average shortstop. This is "The Flores Power Vs. Fielding Chart". Alls he has to do is have more home runs than errors at the ASbreak and he can continue on at short. But he has to keep the HRs above the errors through out the second half. If he makes it past the ASG it shouldn't be too hard to meet my expectations. I'm not asking too much from the guy. Your comment is very interesting though. Both of us watched baseball for many years when the norm at short was all glove, light bat. Up until the mid 80's I guess, but still many teams leaned towards a glove as opposed to offense at short.

Edgy MD May 26 2015 02:00 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I think though, that if the qualifications to get a player off the shit list are qualifications that only 10% of the players starting regularly at that position can meet, we're gonna find ourselves awash in shit, even if the team succeeds wildly. FanGraphs has the guy eighth in WAR among all shortstops, at 0.9. Ian Desmond, who the Mets were supposed to trade Syndergaard for and so prove their seriousness, is 15th, at 0.2. Tulowitzki, whose non-aquisition has Met fans burning their jerseys, is 17th at -0.1. As much as the team's offense has struggled, we all might do well to think about where they might be without Flores.

Frayed Knot May 26 2015 02:55 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

"This isn't an evaluation of the average shortstop." -- No, it's an evaluation of a SS in the first quarter of his first full season in MLB. "This is "The Flores Power Vs. Fielding Chart". Alls he has to do is have more home runs than errors at the ASbreak and he can continue on at short." -- Even though his replacement will also most likely fail to make that same standard? And then how quickly does that guy get axed when the numbers don't add up? "But he has to keep the HRs above the errors through out the second half. If he makes it past the ASG it shouldn't be too hard to meet my expectations. I'm not asking too much from the guy." -- Judged by the history of the position, this is virtually the definition of asking too much from him.

Zvon May 26 2015 02:58 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

You won't find any non-Mets on my shit list because I don't give a shit about non-Mets. I don't care one iota about shortstops playing for other teams and what they have to do. The Flores experiment, to me, is a simple one. He's here for his bat, for his long ball power. If he can't meet my criteria he fails as this teams shortstop, IMO. This does not apply to all the SS's in baseball. Just our Wilmer. If he's close at the ASbreak, like 16 errors and 15 homers, I'll cut him some slack. Right now I do realize he has contributed powerfully to some wins, but how many? How many 3 run homers has Flofeets hit? 3? 4 inc the granny? How many games has he won with his bat? How many errors has he made that contributed directly to a loss? These things should be considered too, but if he has more HRs than errors at the ASB it makes it a lot easier to move forward w/Wilma @ SS. And during this season I would not go outside the organization for a fix a short (unless it's the perfect deal with the perfect addition). I wouldn't trade Matz for anyone. I have another list that smells like roses, and he's pretty high on that one. A lefty who can bring it. I'd deal Wheeler or Noah first, if we HAVE to involve a starting pitcher. I'd much rather see us hold on to all our top pitchers and bring up Reynolds if Wilma falls flat(footed). Reynolds should be up for Wright already (imo) which wouldn't address the SS problem because I'd have him at third for now. And I'd leave Wilmer alone until July (if he doesn't absolutely fall apart in between).

Zvon May 26 2015 03:04 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: "But he has to keep the HRs above the errors through out the second half. If he makes it past the ASG it shouldn't be too hard to meet my expectations. I'm not asking too much from the guy." -- Judged by the history of the position, this is virtually the definition of asking too much from him. In the case of Flores I think it's a pretty fair measuring stick. I mean, what he's there for. To hit homers. If he can't do it, and he can't field at least average, he shouldn't be there in the first place. But Sandy made his choice. I'm for giving Flores the time he needs to succeed. And that would be early July.

Benjamin Grimm May 26 2015 03:34 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I think if he hits 30 homers and makes 35 errors, I'd take that in a heartbeat.

Ashie62 May 26 2015 03:34 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Leads the team in homers. Does not lead NL shortstops in errors.

Ceetar May 26 2015 03:49 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Tejada's a push at 1:1. I agree that Flores needs to hit longballs. It's the only thing that keeping him somewhat viable. Of course, he could start walking some too, and providing overall offensive ability, but maybe don't hold your breath on that.

Frayed Knot May 26 2015 04:47 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Zvon wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: "But he has to keep the HRs above the errors through out the second half. If he makes it past the ASG it shouldn't be too hard to meet my expectations. I'm not asking too much from the guy." -- Judged by the history of the position, this is virtually the definition of asking too much from him. In the case of Flores I think it's a pretty fair measuring stick. I mean, what he's there for. To hit homers. If he can't do it, and he can't field at least average, he shouldn't be there in the first place. But Sandy made his choice. I'm for giving Flores the time he needs to succeed. And that would be early July. I don't understand a single bit of the logic being used here. Not the initial part behind this arbitrary linkage between HRs & errors; not why you seem to think that it should apply to Flores in particular; not how he, presumably more than others, was brought it "to hit homers"; not why his inevitable replacement, almost certainly to fall short of the same standard, wouldn't be subject to the same rigor.

Centerfield May 26 2015 05:05 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Errors committed at SS this season: Marcus Semien (OAK) - 17 ... SEVEN-FRICKIN'-TEEN!?! Fifty plus. I know the A's have always been on the forefront in terms of seminal ideas, but this one may blow up right in their face. I mean, fifty plus errors, if it comes to it, can leave anyone feeling a little testy. When you're thinking about a guy who's more comfortable with his bat in hand than putting a glove on it, you have to figure on a few dribblers to trickle past every now and again. But, yeah, that sort of leakage is just sloppy. You've got to handle your balls better than that, son, or you'll be stuck sitting around with a squeeze bottle and a towel. Thank god there is at least one other juvenile on this forum.

Zvon May 26 2015 05:19 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: "But he has to keep the HRs above the errors through out the second half. If he makes it past the ASG it shouldn't be too hard to meet my expectations. I'm not asking too much from the guy." -- Judged by the history of the position, this is virtually the definition of asking too much from him. In the case of Flores I think it's a pretty fair measuring stick. I mean, what he's there for. To hit homers. If he can't do it, and he can't field at least average, he shouldn't be there in the first place. But Sandy made his choice. I'm for giving Flores the time he needs to succeed. And that would be early July. I don't understand a single bit of the logic being used here. Not the initial part behind this arbitrary linkage between HRs & errors; not why you seem to think that it should apply to Flores in particular; not how he, presumably more than others, was brought it "to hit homers"; not why his inevitable replacement, almost certainly to fall short of the same standard, wouldn't be subject to the same rigor. It's all there in my comments, my reasoning. He's got a job to do. In light of what the team says they expect from him, and in turn what I expect from him, he needs to do certain things to be acceptable as a shortstop. Don't look for logic here. This is a fan who thinks logically Flores should not be our shortstop. But the team went that way. I'll support the decision up to a certain point, with my own specifics in mind. Think of it as a "fan thing" if you want. I'm just stating my views. Honestly, following baseball, I do not hold all players to the same standard. It's usually what they are supposed to be doing as opposed to what they are actually doing. Expectations.

Edgy MD May 26 2015 05:51 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

You won't find any non-Mets on my shit list because I don't give a shit about non-Mets. I don't care one iota about shortstops playing for other teams and what they have to do. I agree! Let's keep this in the family. [list]1962: Chacon — 22 errors at shortstop, 2 HR. Shit list. 1963: Moran — 27 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. List of shit. 1964: McMillan — 14 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Name written in shit on a list made of paper, 1965: McMillan — 27 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Name written in ink on the a list made of shit. 1966: Bressoud — 16 errors at shortstop, 8 HR. Don't sit next to that guy making a list. Trust me. 1967: Harrelson — 32 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. You give shit a bad name. 1968: Harrelson — 15 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Lista de mierda. 1969: Harrelson — 19 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Liste de merde. 1970: Harrelson — 21 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. List stercore. 1971: Harrelson — 16 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Condemned by the Federal Bureau of Lists. 1972: Harrelson — 16 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Even his mother shitlisted him after this season. 1973: Harrelson — 10 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Why even bother writing? List typed up this season with a shit-covered ribbon. 1974: Harrelson — 17 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. It's like a shitty nocturne written by Liszt. 1975: Phillips — 31 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Prospect watchers raved about his shit list potential. 1976: Harrelson — 20 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. You say shit. I say list. Together? Shit list! 1977: Harrelson — 6 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Spray paint it on the wall if you want. It's still a shit list. 1978: Foli — 18 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Crazy Horse made the Crazy Horseshit List this season. 1979: Taveras — 25 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Mets/Battlestar Gallactica fans put him on their "Feldercarb List." 1980: Taveras — 25 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. You could pre-print your shitlist at the beginning of the year with Frank's name already on it. 1981: Taveras — 24 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. It's a stone cold fact that you can't bunt your way off the shit list. 1982: Gardenhire — 29 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. Such shit list potential this guy lost to injuries. 1983: Oquendo — 21 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Perhaps our youngest-ever shit list member. 1984: Oquendo — 7 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. I had a nightmare this guy was on the shit list. I woke up and IT WAS TRUE. 1985: Santana — 25 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. By day, New York Mets shorstop. By night, denizen of The List. 1986: Santana — 16 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Raffy actually made Schindler's Shit List this year, which I didn't even know was a thing. 1987: Santana — 17 errors at shortstop, 5 HR. Year of the Homer. Still, not a year without a shit list. No sir. 1988: Elster — 13 errors at shortstop, 9 HR. One of the great efforts in avoiding the shit list. It failed, of course. 1989: Elster — 15 errors at shortstop, 10 HR. Set a defensive record AND hit for power? You're still on the list, buddy. 1990: Elster — 17 errors at shortstop, 9 HR. Here, write your own name. I've got a cramp. 1991: Elster — 14 errors at shortstop, 6 HR. The neighbors don't talk to you anymore. They just refer to you to third parties as "The guy with all those lists." 1992: Schofield — 7 errors at shortstop, 4 HR. This one-year Met had ONE chance to make the list. He came close to missing but he WOULD NOT DISAPPOINT. 1993: Bogar — 8 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. A Ron Gardenhire for a new generation. Always trying to get healthy enough to make ONE MORE LIST. But he made one, and that's something. 1994: Vizcaino — 13 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. The shit list became computerized this year. On a shitty computer. 1995: Vizcaino — 10 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. Phillip Glass set the shit list to music this year, and included a Vizcaino Overture. 1996: Ordóñez — 27 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Shit list. 1997: Ordóñez — 9 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Among other records, Rey set the standard for most internal punctuation in a name on the shit list. 1998: Ordóñez — 17 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Fran Healy said Rey's secret was that he went into the season CAHNFIDENT that he'd be on the shit list. 1999: Ordóñez — 4 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. A gilded year for infield defense. And the gold was wrapped in a list of PURE SHIT 2000: Bordick — errors at shortstop, HR. Sort of a Rey Ordóñez shit list interregnum. Get it? InterREYgnum. HA! HA! HA! HA! 2001: Ordóñez — 12 errors at shortstop, 3 HR. Shit list comeback of the year. 2002: Ordóñez — 19 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. Rey had his own shit list composed of Met fans. Turnabout is fair play! 2003: Reyes — 9 errors at shortstop, 5 HR. Copies of his rookie shit list are going for a pretty penny on eBay. 2004: Matsui — 23 errors at shortstop, 7 HR. ???????? 2005: Reyes — 18 errors at shortstop, 7 HR. Nobody made out a shit list like Willie Randolph. It was like calligraphy. 2006: Reyes — 17 errors at shortstop, 19 HR. OMYGAWD! A METS SHAWTZTOP HAS ESCAPED THE SHIT LIST!!!! 2007: Reyes — 12 errors at shortstop, 12 HR. A tie does NOT GET YOU OFF ZVON'S SHIT LIST, JOSÈ. You're back in the doghouse, man! 2008: Reyes — 17 errors at shortstop, 16 HR. YOU'RE FADING, MAN! 2009: Cora — 6 errors at shortstop, 0 HR. Cora was the first Met to lead shorstops in games played while not hitting a homer in 16 years. It's like he made the shit list through early admission. 2010: Reyes — 15 errors at shortstop, 11 HR. Get rid of this stooge. Shit list veteran at this point. 2011: Reyes — 18 errors at shortstop, 7 HR. Batting titles don't make up for shit lists, José. 2012: Tejada — 12 errors at shortstop, 1 HR. He's on the All-Time Shit List Short List 2013: Quintanilla — 8 errors at shortstop, 2 HR. Suckiness etched in stone. Stinky, stinky stone. 2014: Tejada — 9 errors at shortstop, 5 HR. And finally, unless Flores anti-rallies with his glove, Ruben could be the last in a long line of shit-listers for quite a while.[/list:u] That's 53 years and 52 shit-listers. You, mein freund, have one impressively high standard.

Zvon May 26 2015 05:59 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I love that list !!!

Zvon May 26 2015 06:07 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I would not hold any of those shortstops to the same standards I hold Flores. Maybe Elster. I got on his case a bit back then. I also considered him a MUCH better SS than Flores in the field so maybe not. Buddy Harrelson is one of my fav Mets SS of all time and I never expected him to hit more homers than make errors. It's all about expectations.

batmagadanleadoff May 26 2015 06:14 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I like this list. Great list-making, Edge. I'd tinker with it some, though, to reflect that one HR does a lot more good than an error does harm. So a shortstop who has a HR to error ratio of, and I'm just wild-ass guessing here, about 60%, is probably an asset, at least based on just those two stats. Obviously, there's more to this. Melvin Mora (2000): 6 HR's, 7 E's at SS = asset.

Edgy MD May 26 2015 06:19 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Zvon wrote: It's all about expectations. Well, I have another list. And mine is all about wins.

Ashie62 May 26 2015 06:31 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I believe Flores will develop into a top tier SS. He's only 23, cmon.

Zvon May 26 2015 06:34 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

My expectations include winning, especially this season. If we aren't contending in September you'll hear plenty more of my illogical views.

Rockin' Doc May 26 2015 08:35 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I definitely don't believe that Flores is the longterm answer at shortstop, but he is far being my biggest concern regarding the 2015 Mets.

themetfairy May 26 2015 08:44 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

themetfairy wrote: I'm gonna make you love me!

Zvon May 26 2015 09:02 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Hey, maybe I should be using RBIs instead of homers to decide Flores fate in my imaginary Mets world (where I possibly replace him at the ASB). And of course he should have more RBIs than errors at that point. So how should that go? Over 40 RBI by the ASbreak? I say homers cause that's how they are trying to sell him, and he's hitting his fair share, but I really don't care how he contributes offensively as long as he does. Like I said, I don't see him hitting for average. He's got 21 ribbys. It won't be easy. But that's what we really need from him. Jeeze, that's what we need from all of 'em. The thing is if you erase all the HRs with guys on you really don't have much with Flores. So to do that I imagine he would have to continue hitting the big homer from time to time. So he really should accomplish both. Would going by RBIs be fairer?

MFS62 May 26 2015 09:32 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Zvon wrote: Buddy Harrelson is one of my fav Mets SS of all time and I never expected him to hit more homers than make errors. It's all about expectations. I still remember the Baseball Digest minor league/ rookie scouting issue in which Bud Harrelson was described as having "good power for a shortstop". Once I saw Bud play, I never trusted those reports again. Later

Edgy MD May 26 2015 10:33 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Don't ask Zvon about Wilmer Flores. Ask THIS Phillies phan: Nick Nykiel ?@Nick_NyQuil24 2h2 hours ago Fuck Wilmer Flores and everything he stands for My shit list has Troy Tulowitzki, Starlin Castro and Ian Desmond, who can collectively consume Wilmer's undergarments.

Nymr83 May 26 2015 11:29 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

It's a stone cold fact that you can't bunt your way off the shit list. Edgy's list has me falling on the floor unable to stop laughing How can anyone possibly be discussing Errors alone as a serious measure of defensive ability? YOU SOUND LIKE A YANKEES FAN DEFENDING ST. JETER!!

Frayed Knot May 27 2015 06:08 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Zvon wrote: Hey, maybe I should be using RBIs instead of homers to decide Flores fate in my imaginary Mets world (where I possibly replace him at the ASB). And of course he should have more RBIs than errors at that point. So how should that go? Over 40 RBI by the ASbreak? I say homers cause that's how they are trying to sell him, and he's hitting his fair share, but I really don't care how he contributes offensively as long as he does. Like I said, I don't see him hitting for average. He's got 21 ribbys. It won't be easy. But that's what we really need from him. Jeeze, that's what we need from all of 'em. The thing is if you erase all the HRs with guys on you really don't have much with Flores. So to do that I imagine he would have to continue hitting the big homer from time to time. So he really should accomplish both. Would going by RBIs be fairer? Or maybe -- just a wild suggestion here -- you can judge him on the totality of his game without resorting to the need to invent some sort of pass/fail threshold based solely on using a couple of completely unrelated stats. And, while doing so, do keep in mind that he's a 23 y/o with less than a full season's worth of ML ABs to his name spread over parts of three seasons. Also, while we're on the subject, your whole premise here seems to be hanging on two "facts" which I don't see as facts at all. 1) that he, more than most other players, deserves to have these arbitrary standards put on him because he's already cast in stone as a low-avg/high-power hitter. But his minor league stats don't indicate anything like that (near .300 BA across 3,000 ABs but never as many as 20 HRs in a season) in fact the biggest question surrounding him as he came up concerned his power. Reports I read on him were, at best, mixed on how much he'd display which, when combined with the uncertainty about where he's fit on the field, is what kept him from the upper reaches of the prospect lists. 2) that the team has somehow "sold you on" him as a power hitter ... something I don't get at all. They obviously know he's not twinkletoes out there but they're hoping that his offense will more than make up for whatever else he lacks. I don't remember a word specifically about his power although if they were depending on it it seems to have worked seeing a how he's leading all of baseball in HRs by a SS (tied w/Peralta though in 25 fewer ABs) and 4th in RBIs. So how 'bout we see how his entire game, and the team's for that matter, all works out before jumping to conclusion by the AS break of his first full year based on nothing more than some arbitrary statistical coincidences?

Edgy MD May 27 2015 07:15 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

You want a list, then start it with Eric Campbell. He's our bat-first reserve infielder, but he's given so little to this lineup 100 plate appearances into his season that he has me looking closely at the likes of Casey McGehee and Alberto Callaspo. I... don't like... Casey McGehee and Alberto Callaspo.

Benjamin Grimm May 27 2015 07:19 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

How far off is the return of Dilson Herrera?

Zvon May 28 2015 03:18 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: Zvon wrote: Hey, maybe I should be using RBIs instead of homers to decide Flores fate in my imaginary Mets world (where I possibly replace him at the ASB). And of course he should have more RBIs than errors at that point. So how should that go? Over 40 RBI by the ASbreak? I say homers cause that's how they are trying to sell him, and he's hitting his fair share, but I really don't care how he contributes offensively as long as he does. Like I said, I don't see him hitting for average. He's got 21 ribbys. It won't be easy. But that's what we really need from him. Jeeze, that's what we need from all of 'em. The thing is if you erase all the HRs with guys on you really don't have much with Flores. So to do that I imagine he would have to continue hitting the big homer from time to time. So he really should accomplish both. Would going by RBIs be fairer? Or maybe -- just a wild suggestion here -- you can judge him on the totality of his game without resorting to the need to invent some sort of pass/fail threshold based solely on using a couple of completely unrelated stats. And, while doing so, do keep in mind that he's a 23 y/o with less than a full season's worth of ML ABs to his name spread over parts of three seasons. Also, while we're on the subject, your whole premise here seems to be hanging on two "facts" which I don't see as facts at all. 1) that he, more than most other players, deserves to have these arbitrary standards put on him because he's already cast in stone as a low-avg/high-power hitter. But his minor league stats don't indicate anything like that (near .300 BA across 3,000 ABs but never as many as 20 HRs in a season) in fact the biggest question surrounding him as he came up concerned his power. Reports I read on him were, at best, mixed on how much he'd display which, when combined with the uncertainty about where he's fit on the field, is what kept him from the upper reaches of the prospect lists. 2) that the team has somehow "sold you on" him as a power hitter ... something I don't get at all. They obviously know he's not twinkletoes out there but they're hoping that his offense will more than make up for whatever else he lacks. I don't remember a word specifically about his power although if they were depending on it it seems to have worked seeing a how he's leading all of baseball in HRs by a SS (tied w/Peralta though in 25 fewer ABs) and 4th in RBIs. So how 'bout we see how his entire game, and the team's for that matter, all works out before jumping to conclusion by the AS break of his first full year based on nothing more than some arbitrary statistical coincidences? Hey, I'm just a fan being a fan. Stop being a llort. Did I use that right? Maybe I'm the llort. In that case I'll stop.

Ashie62 May 28 2015 03:44 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

What is a llort?

Zvon May 28 2015 04:06 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Ashie62 wrote: What is a llort? Lol. I'm not exactly sure it applies. From another thread: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: You don't know what a troll is? I mean, he is or isn't, but the definition is pretty clear by now. Yeah, I know what a troll is supposed to be. But what happens when someone you think is a troll writes the truth? When someone with, perhaps, an axe to grind, nevertheless writes something that's honest and accurate? And is there a word for something like a reverse troll? You know, like someone who goes to ridiculous, almost pathological delusional lengths just to post something positive on the topic on hand? Just to avoid or deny negative comments or criticism, no matter how deserved? Because if there isn't, there should be. How about llort? Like llama, but llort? It really doesn't fit either of us in it's entirety. I just thought it would be savvy & suave (& funny) to start throwing that word around.

Ceetar May 31 2015 07:40 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Ruben Tejada out-hitting him again.

Mets Guy in Michigan May 31 2015 08:17 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I think Flores gets some extra love because he's become one of the few power sources that we have. Heck, he's been leading the team until Duda caught fire. If he was surrounded by 5 guys putting balls in the seats, you'd demand the better defense because we don't need the power.

Edgy MD Jun 01 2015 06:01 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

The truth is that I'm not asking for better defense, so much as better plate discipline. But more than that, I'm asking Terry stop living in fear and put Tejada at short and Flores at third.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2015 07:49 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I get that they're saying FLORES IS THE SHORTSTOP but what's curious I guess is Tejada at 3B and Muffy at 2B

Ceetar Jun 01 2015 08:08 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I get that they're saying FLORES IS THE SHORTSTOP but what's curious I guess is Tejada at 3B and Muffy at 2B And we wonder why GB machine Jon Niese has had a few spotty starts?

Benjamin Grimm Jun 01 2015 08:52 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Edgy MD wrote: But more than that, I'm asking Terry stop living in fear and put Tejada at short and Flores at third. I know, right? Why don't they take this one step further and put Duda in center and Lagares at first?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 01 2015 10:16 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Ceetar wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I get that they're saying FLORES IS THE SHORTSTOP but what's curious I guess is Tejada at 3B and Muffy at 2B And we wonder why GB machine Jon Niese has had a few spotty starts? He's not really a GB machine is he? He has absorbed his unfair share of Flores booboos, though. I think half of Flores's erros have come while Niese is pitching but I wouldn't say it's because he's gotten chances in the same ratio. Niese to me looks like a line-drive-into-the-gap specialist these days.

Frayed Knot Jun 01 2015 10:27 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Edgy MD wrote: But more than that, I'm asking Terry stop living in fear and put Tejada at short and Flores at third. I know, right? Why don't they take this one step further and put Duda in center and Lagares at first? I think the obvious answer is that as long as they view Wright's absence from the lineup as temporary they're unwilling to "yo-yo" young Wilmer back and forth from the position he's trying to learn. Not advocating that type of thinking just saying that I think it's the case, whereas if word were to suddenly come down from on high (or from Medgel) that Dabid was done for the year then I think we'd be more likely to see a switcheroo. A Muffy/Tejada swap makes more sense but probably isn't a big deal one way or the other.

Edgy MD Jun 01 2015 10:50 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: Edgy MD wrote: But more than that, I'm asking Terry stop living in fear and put Tejada at short and Flores at third. I know, right? Why don't they take this one step further and put Duda in center and Lagares at first? I think the obvious answer is that as long as they view Wright's absence from the lineup as temporary they're unwilling to "yo-yo" young Wilmer back and forth from the position he's trying to learn. And I call it Living. In. Fear. I suspect it is not so much any effect of yo-yoing they fear. It's that if things go south for Wilmer, Terry fears that critics will link the yo-yo-ing to any failures offensive or defensive, no matter whether the link is cause-and-effect or coincidental. And that's no way to go through life.

Ceetar Jun 01 2015 11:45 AM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I get that they're saying FLORES IS THE SHORTSTOP but what's curious I guess is Tejada at 3B and Muffy at 2B And we wonder why GB machine Jon Niese has had a few spotty starts? He's not really a GB machine is he? He has absorbed his unfair share of Flores booboos, though. I think half of Flores's erros have come while Niese is pitching but I wouldn't say it's because he's gotten chances in the same ratio. Niese to me looks like a line-drive-into-the-gap specialist these days. he's 16th on the GB% leaderboard [url]http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=14,d It's not really just about Flores' errant throws either, just general positioning and balls missed and DP not turned and all that. It's also extremely hard to quantify in this small a sample (especially if you want to just look at the last 4 Niese starts) but it's hard to see how all the guys out of position or just not that good defensively would be helpful for someone with so many balls in play. But yes, Niese' K/9 is down too, and his velocity, which means more balls in play in addition to a large percent of them being on teh ground.

Frayed Knot Jun 16 2015 06:40 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Just a snapshot in time comparison thru 60-some games of the season (not including any stats tonight) Wilmer Flores: 228 PA; .248/.283/.425; 10 HRs; 31 RBI; 10 Errors Ian Desmond: 270 PA; .222/.266/.349; 5 HRs; 17 RBI; 14 Errors Flores turns 24 in August and under team control for this season and four more. Desmond, 30 in September, can be a FA after 2016

Edgy MD Jun 16 2015 07:01 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

The Mets passing on trading Syndergaard for Desmond: Perhaps the greatest of the Fake Scandals of the 2014–2015 Offseason.

themetfairy Jun 16 2015 07:10 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

I'm gonna make you love me!

Frayed Knot Jun 16 2015 07:39 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Another comparison: Derek Jeter (career): AB = 11,195 HRs = 260; AB w/Bases Loaded = 262; HRs w/Bases Loaded = 1 Wilmer Flores (career): AB = 568; HRs = 17; AB w/Bases Loaded = 24; HRs w/Bases Loaded = 2 I know this comparison says nothing of import whatsoever, but I just enjoy pointing it out.

Nymr83 Jun 16 2015 07:57 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: Another comparison: Derek Jeter (career): AB = 11,195 HRs = 260; AB w/Bases Loaded = 262; HRs w/Bases Loaded = 1 Wilmer Flores (career): AB = 568; HRs = 17; AB w/Bases Loaded = 24; HRs w/Bases Loaded = 2 I know this comparison says nothing of import whatsoever, but I just enjoy pointing it out. WHO IS MORE CLUTCH???

Zvon Jun 16 2015 09:21 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: Just a snapshot in time comparison thru 60-some games of the season (not including any stats tonight) Wilmer Flores: 228 PA; .248/.283/.425; 10 HRs; 31 RBI; 10 Errors Ian Desmond: 270 PA; .222/.266/.349; 5 HRs; 17 RBI; 14 Errors Flores turns 24 in August and under team control for this season and four more. Desmond, 30 in September, can be a FA after 2016 The 31 RBI is what impresses me the most. He's not a one trick pony. He's not a fantastic hitter but he will poke it in an RBI situation. Even though he's even at 10/10, my judgement of him at this point is on the positive side. He will drive in runs. He will make errors. So far his O outweighs his errors in my mind, but it's awfully close. I see him breaking away if he can hit a dozen more and drive in 80.

Frayed Knot Jun 16 2015 09:28 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

You know what I was noticing about Flores tonight, that while his feet aren't all that quick, they're also not clumsy. In his own way he's smooth like you'd want in a SS, just in slightly slow motion.

Ceetar Jun 16 2015 10:49 PM Re: The Unsucking of Wilmer Flores

Frayed Knot wrote: You know what I was noticing about Flores tonight, that while his feet aren't all that quick, they're also not clumsy. In his own way he's smooth like you'd want in a SS, just in slightly slow motion. He feels like a robot when I watch him, but he has mostly made the plays lately.