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A Half Dozen


Wholehearted support 1 votes

Tentative support 10 votes

Indifference 4 votes

Mostly cynicism 1 votes

Wholehearted antipathy 1 votes

Edgy MD
May 28 2015 08:01 AM



The Mets, for one of the rare times in their history, have announced their plan to effect a six-man pitching rotation.

Factors:
[list][*]The idea supposedly is to limit the workload of their young starters. The focus is on Harvey, but Syndergaard hasn't pitched a full season yet, and deGrom is a surgery case, and it's not like anybody thinks of Niese as the picture of health.

[/*:m]
[*]How long it lasts is an open question.

[/*:m]
[*]As much as the motive can be considered valid, one must also credit the means: the Mets have a glut of starters. Six will be in action once Gee is activated.

[/*:m]
[*]Even if the Mets deal from their excess, the glut could remain, with Matz pushing hard from below and Montero coming off the DL.

[/*:m]
[*]Also yet to be seen is whether Terry Collins would be willing to use his starters out of the pen in the middle of their rest cycle, as some managers have done while using a six-man rotation.

[/*:m]
[*]How long before a pitcher has a bad turn and the columnists blame the 6MR?

[/*:m]
[*]And how about that dope Joel Sherman, preemptively criticizing the Mets for seeking to protect Matt Harvey, when "... The chances Harvey is pitching for the Mets in 2019 is what? Five percent?"[/*:m][/list:u]

Ceetar
May 28 2015 08:03 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Sandy Alderson was not quoted as saying "Hey 29 other GMs, see? We're not desperate to trade Gee. We're going to use him. It's good for resting our young pitchers. You can't just give offer us crap and expect us to accept it."

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 28 2015 08:08 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Someone will get traded (Gee or Niese), get hurt (Gee or Niese) or be too ineffective (Gee or Niese) to justify its existence for very long, but I don't believe it's intended to last very long. Like the Montero thing, 1 and done, have enough of them over the course of a season and you've banked some innings.

d'Kong76
May 28 2015 08:23 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

I'm in the really-short-term move that won't last long
resulting in total indifference to it camp.

Benjamin Grimm
May 28 2015 08:26 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Dan Warthen was quoted in the Daily News as saying that he expects it to last until August, but that seems really unlikely to me.

Ceetar
May 28 2015 08:32 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Dan Warthen was quoted in the Daily News as saying that he expects it to last until August, but that seems really unlikely to me.


So like, right after the trading deadline huh? Awfully coincidental.

Ashie62
May 28 2015 09:27 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

4 man rotation.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 28 2015 09:39 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 28 2015 09:47 AM

Moreso than I am by anything regarding the actual strategem, I'm heartened by the fact that we haven't yet seen an anonymous member of the organization speaking to Sherman or someone about how much the six-man smells like two, man. #Tightship

Benjamin Grimm
May 28 2015 09:40 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

I think this is an early glimpse of the future of baseball. I predict that before the 2020's are done, most if not all teams will have a six-man rotation.

Ceetar
May 28 2015 09:43 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I think this is an early glimpse of the future of baseball. I predict that before the 2020's are done, most if not all teams will have a six-man rotation.


Going to need a LOT more pitchers to stay healthy for that.

Benjamin Grimm
May 28 2015 09:48 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

True, but each pitcher will be getting more rest and pitching fewer innings.

Ceetar
May 28 2015 09:51 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
True, but each pitcher will be getting more rest and pitching fewer innings.


Which doesn't really prevent them from getting injured, beyond that the less you pitch the less opportunity you have to hurt yourself.

It could certainly happen..that's how they do it in Japan right?

Hmm, if MLB could float that idea, it'd be a good way to boost offense again too.

Edgy MD
May 28 2015 10:20 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

It's a little more than that. It's not merely that the less you pitch, the less opportunity you have to hurt yourself, it's also that the less you pitch, the less compound damage you accumulate, thanks to your one extra day of rest and healing between starts.

Fman99
May 28 2015 10:24 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Joel Sherman should hang himself with a noose made out of flaccid dicks.

Frayed Knot
May 28 2015 10:29 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 28 2015 10:30 AM

-- I've already heard this discussed in 'wave of the future' terms but I think that's a bit premature. Maybe one day 5-man rotations will seem as antiquated as the 4-man does today, but I don't think those days are quite around the corner yet.

-- I'm predicting this doesn't last more than three or four times through. Someone will get hurt or suck and a trade has got to happen at some point. Colon's hot start seems to have taken him off the trade block (in people's minds anyway) after being at the head of it virtually from the moment he was signed (Francesa was campaigning for him to be re-signed for next year ... good influence on the young guys, etc.) but he'd still be attractive to some pennant/WC dreaming team.

-- The Nats had no problem relegating Tanner Roark to the pen even coming on the heels of his 15-10/2.85 season in 2014 (a better season than either Strasberg or Gonzalez). But now Fister in on the shelf so he slides right back into the rotation and pitched quite well his first time out. It can be done.

Benjamin Grimm
May 28 2015 10:31 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Fman99 wrote:
Joel Sherman should hang himself with a noose made out of flaccid dicks.


Where would he get such a thing?

Frayed Knot
May 28 2015 10:31 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Fman99 wrote:
Joel Sherman should hang himself with a noose made out of flaccid dicks.


Where would he get such a thing?


There's an app for that.

MFS62
May 28 2015 10:36 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Actually, he already does. Have you checked his Facebook page recently? And he seems to be enjoying it. But they must be MFY dicks, because it looks like he needed more than 200 of them to make a noose.

Later

Edgy MD
May 28 2015 11:02 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Frayed Knot wrote:
-- I'm predicting this doesn't last more than three or four times through.

Maybe not, but right now, they may be closer to eight than they are to five.

Lefty Specialist
May 28 2015 11:10 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

I'm fine with it for a little while. Weakest link goes to the bullpen. In any case, there's no way this persists past the trade deadline. It's to showcase all three of Niese, Gee and Colon, hopefully enticing someone to make a trade.

Preferably they trade two of the three, making room for Matz in a five-man rotation.

seawolf17
May 28 2015 11:25 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Does it help us win baseball games? Then I'm all for it. Let's see what happens.

Ceetar
May 28 2015 11:36 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

seawolf17 wrote:
Does it help us win baseball games? Then I'm all for it. Let's see what happens.


well at the moment we're trading a few Harvey and deGrom starts for more Gee.

batmagadanleadoff
May 28 2015 11:36 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 28 2015 11:40 AM

From the Department of In the Future:

The Major League roster isn't big enough to accommodate this idea, but the most efficient way to use a pitching staff might be to ditch the whole starting pitcher concept and instead, have a handful of pitchers, each pitching no more than three innings, pitch each game. The pitching staff would essentially be comprised entirely of relief pitchers -- and all pitchers would be groomed for a reliever's workload. The game is trending that way, but again, roster-size limitations are an obstacle to this idea. All pitchers, from the stars to especially the fringe pitchers, are less efficient with each incremental trip through the opponent's lineup. In a relief staff, pitchers wouldn't have to pace themselves to pitch six or even more innings a game, and the batters would rarely see the same pitcher twice in the same game.

Benjamin Grimm
May 28 2015 11:39 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Ceetar wrote:
seawolf17 wrote:
Does it help us win baseball games? Then I'm all for it. Let's see what happens.


well at the moment we're trading a few Harvey and deGrom starts for more Gee.


That's part of the idea. They want Harvey and deGrom to start fewer games over the next couple of months so that they're more fresh for the last stage of the pennant race and the playoffs.

The potential downside is that the fewer starts from the better pitchers might leave the Mets less well positioned for the final stretch.

Zvon
May 28 2015 11:44 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Lefty Specialist wrote:
I'm fine with it for a little while. Weakest link goes to the bullpen. In any case, there's no way this persists past the trade deadline. It's to showcase all three of Niese, Gee and Colon, hopefully enticing someone to make a trade.

Preferably they trade two of the three, making room for Matz in a five-man rotation.


How about we stick Gee in the pen, call up Matz & stay with the 6-man rotation. One of the NY papers mentioned this and I'd love to see Matz up.

batmagadanleadoff
May 28 2015 11:48 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 28 2015 11:55 AM

The Mets can get away with this for now so long as their so-called abundance of pitching isn't all major-league ready, whether because of injuries (Wheeler, Montero) ripeness (Matz, so they say), or something else. Sooner or later though, something's gonna give. A team can't hoard ten major-league ready starting pitchers, can it?

Ceetar
May 28 2015 11:48 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

From the Department of In the Future:

The Major League roster isn't big enough to accommodate this idea, but the most efficient way to use a pitching staff might be to ditch the whole starting pitcher concept and instead, have a handful of pitchers, each pitching no more than three innings, pitch each game. The pitching staff would essentially be comprised entirely of relief pitchers -- and all pitchers would be groomed for a reliever's workload. The game is trending that way, but again, roster-size limitations are an obstacle to this idea. All pitchers, from the stars to especially the fringe pitchers, are less efficient with each incremental trip through the opponent's lineup. In a relief staff, pitchers wouldn't have to pace themselves to pitch six or even more innings a game, and the batters would rarely see the same pitcher twice in the same game.


Or, to mitigate the need to use the shorter bench as much, DH.

Benjamin Grimm
May 28 2015 11:50 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

The argument for keeping Gee as part of the six-man rotation, I think, is that if he does well he has more trade value than he would if he was doing occasional long relief. If he does in fact get traded, then they can go back to a five-man, or replace him with Matz in the six-man. (This all assumes, of course, that no one drops from the rotation due to injury or ineffectiveness.)

Mets – Willets Point
May 28 2015 12:03 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

I've had a crazy idea for some time that I call the "Double Rotation" where a team would have 10 pitchers and rank them on their effectiveness over a number of innings so that a pitcher who is highly effective for 7+ innings (what we would now call an ace) would be ranked #1 and a pitcher highly effective for 1-2 innings (what we now call a closer) would be ranked #10, and various lengths of effectiveness would Then they would be paired together 1/10, 2/9, 3/8, 4/7, and 5/6. Instead of having starters and relievers, the pair of pitchers would each expect to pitch every five days for the number of innings they've deemed to be effective. A manager would want to tinker with this to pair up righties & lefties where possible. The advantage is that a team can seek out the best pitching possible without giving thoughts to starters and relievers and make sure they all consistently get work. There are of course many disadvantages, but you know those already. Anyhow, thanks for tuning in to MWP's Crazy Ideas.

Lefty Specialist
May 28 2015 12:39 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

I just don't think a 6-man rotation is viable over the long term. It leaves you with either a short bench or a short bullpen.

Edgy MD
May 28 2015 12:52 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

Sure, but part of the thinking is (or should be) that the guy three days away from starting is also your last guy out of the pen.

Zvon
May 28 2015 03:05 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

And the guy with The Hammer could be our #3 pinch hitter on off days. And Hairball can hit.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 01 2015 11:41 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

Speaking of six-man rotations, pitching is this week's theme at Grantland's "The 30" baseball piece by Jonah Keri, and the Mets are one of the featured teams.

2. Pittsburgh Pirates (26-24, plus-34, LW: 12)
11. New York Mets (28-23, plus-6, LW: 10)
10. Chicago Cubs (26-22, minus-2, LW: 8)
9. Detroit Tigers (28-24, minus-1, LW: 6)
8. Los Angeles Angels (27-24, plus-8, LW: 9)
7. Minnesota Twins (30-19, plus-21, LW: 11)

The Mets’ 2015 season has doubled as a challenge to one of baseball’s eternal truths: You can never have too much starting pitching.

With right-hander Dillon Gee scheduled to come off the disabled list to start Wednesday against the Padres, the Mets will go to a six-man rotation. And the thing is, six spots might not even be enough, as New York has seven starters who look ready for the majors. So let’s take stock of the Seven Samurai:

• The six-man rotation’s main purpose is to protect Matt Harvey. With a strikeout-to-walk ratio greater than six-to-one, the Dark Knight has returned from Tommy John surgery without missing a beat. However, that dominance carries with it a weird curse: There’s no way the Mets can cap Harvey’s innings at around 180 (as the organization had hoped) if their ace keeps pitching seven innings or more per start while part of a five-man rotation. By going to six starters, they’re hoping Harvey can make it through the regular season and potentially into the playoffs (if the Mets make it that far) without hitting his innings cap. Oh, and in case you were wondering, Harvey’s agent, Scott Boras, emphatically approves of this plan.

• Unlike Harvey, Jacob deGrom isn’t on a strict innings limit, but the defending rookie of the year topped his career high in pro ball by tossing 178.2 frames last year. He’s a pivotal part of the rotation, he’s averaging more than six innings a start, and he sports the lowest ERA among Mets starters who’ve been in the rotation since Opening Day. If the team makes it to October, deGrom would be badly needed, so the six-man rotation should help ease concerns of overworking the soon-to-be-27-year-old.

• After a hot start to the season, Bartolo Colon has seen his ERA climb to 4.72. Even still, we’re talking about a pitcher with a 54-to-5 strikeout-to-walk ratio — elite command that drops Colon’s fielding-independent numbers about a run lower than his ERA. Add in his wildly entertaining at-bats, and Colon is a damn superhero. Nobody’s taking his job.

• Noah Syndergaard’s first four starts in the majors have been as good as any Mets fan could’ve possibly hoped for. Through 24.2 innings, Syndergaard has fanned 22 batters, issued just five walks, allowed one homer, and delivered a 2.55 ERA and 2.57 FIP. His fastball averages nearly 98 mph, and he complements it with a virtually unhittable curve. If taking Colon’s job is tough, stealing Syndergaard’s away could be as challenging as lifting Thor’s hammer.

• Saturday’s rough outing against the Marlins marked the fourth straight start in which Jon Niese has allowed four or more earned runs. He’d never done that at any previous point in his eight-year big league career. Hell, he’d never even done it in three straight starts. His curveball, an important part of Niese’s eclectic, six-pitch repertoire, has looked especially awful, as batters whacked it at a .385 clip in May. Niese hasn’t indicated that he’s hurt, and he allowed one earned run or fewer in five of the six starts before this current ugly stretch, so these struggles could soon pass.

• When healthy and pitching well, Gee is a league-average starter. He’s a pitch-to-contact right-hander who might have unlocked some hidden ability in his first five starts this season, when he posted a career-best 59.2 percent ground-ball rate. That’s a great skill for any team to have in a fifth starter, let alone a sixth starter, but when it comes to the rotation, the Mets are clearly not any team. If Niese’s cold spell ends soon, Gee could find himself as the odd man out.

• With Syndergaard now pitching in the Show, the undisputed best pitching prospect in New York’s system is Steven Matz — and boy is he killing it right now. Working in the pitchers’ nightmare that is Triple-A Las Vegas, Matz has flashed a brilliant 1.98 ERA while striking out 70 batters, walking 23, and allowing just 49 hits and three home runs in 68.1 innings. Matz turned 24 on Friday, he’s put up impressive numbers throughout his minor league career, and he owns three potential major league-quality put-away pitches in his fastball, curve, and changeup. There’s no guarantee Matz will outperform Niese or Gee if the Mets call him up soon, but he’s certainly better than a less-than-100-percent Gee or the Niese we’ve seen over the past few weeks.

As the New York Post’s Ken Davidoff recently wrote, the Mets are a sub-.500 team in games played against teams other than the Phillies, and the schedule will get tougher as the season goes along. Moreover, they’ve gone just 12-15 after a blistering start to the season. Lucas Duda’s emergence has been impressive, but more offensive help is needed, especially with David Wright’s health status still up in the air. An arm-for-bat trade would make tons of sense, even if it doesn’t bring a sought-after name like Troy Tulowitzki to Flushing.

Whatever direction the Mets decide to go in, given the team’s weaknesses and this year’s deep class of NL contenders, sticking with what they currently have in the majors seems like it’d be the wrong call.


http://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-t ... -pitching/

Frayed Knot
Jun 06 2015 10:22 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

Frayed Knot wrote:
-- I'm predicting this doesn't last more than three or four times through.


My prediction overshot it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 07 2015 07:42 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

If you predicted Gee would be too ineffective to justify it, come collect your prize.

Interesting upshots: The "fire-Terry" crowd interprets this seeming reversal of the 6-man 'ro (and hurting the feeeeeeeelings of Dillon Gee while doing so) as evidence of his cluenesses and, of course, only punishable by firing him on Monday.

I think the club is probably committed to at least a few more one-off 6-runs but maybe they've learned not to do it if its just going to result in using a guy the Padres will kick around.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 07 2015 09:42 AM
Re: A Half Dozen

The Grand Puma reports:

Mets hint at call-up time for stud lefty Steven Matz
PHOENIX — In the muddled equation of the Mets’ starting rotation, much of the intrigue surrounds a pitcher who hasn’t arrived yet.

But the consensus among team officials is Steven Matz will be wearing a Mets uniform at some point before the All-Star break.

The fact Matz — a stud pitching prospect at Triple-A Las Vegas — hasn’t been promoted already has raised a few eyebrows even within the organization as the Mets tread water with Jon Niese and Dillon Gee, but general manager Sandy Alderson told The Post there are factors that need to be considered.

Left unsaid was the approaching Super-2 cutoff for arbitration eligibility — the safety date is thought to be around June 20, and the Mets at this point would potentially be sacrificing significant dollars for maybe two starts from the 24-year-old Matz before the cutoff.

But the Mets also want to manage Matz’s innings, which is easier accomplished at Triple-A, to ensure he’s in better position to avoid a shutdown once he joins the Mets’ rotation.

Matz pitched six innings on Friday for Las Vegas and allowed one run over six innings in the loss. Overall, he is 6-4 with a 1.94 ERA in 74¹/? innings.
“It’s a process of managing his innings so he could be around 180-185 innings,” Alderson said before the Mets’ 2-1 loss to the Diamondbacks on Saturday night. “We are not looking at this as a minor league season for him.”

But Alderson conceded it’s “very possible” Matz already would be in the major leagues if the Mets didn’t have a logjam in the rotation.
Is there anything the Mets still have to see from Matz in the minor leagues?

“Probably not,” Alderson said.

An organizational source expressed concern the Mets haven’t already promoted Matz, noting the left-hander is dominating the Pacific Coast League — a hitters’ paradise because of the altitude in many locales — and the need for the team to stay afloat in the NL East until injured players can return.

It’s a group on the disabled list that includes David Wright, Daniel Murphy, Travis d’Arnaud, Bobby Parnell and Vic Black.

Manager Terry Collins on Saturday scrapped the team’s new six-man rotation — sending Gee to the bullpen — that had been implemented to help ensure Matt Harvey, Jacob deGrom and Noah Syndergaard won’t need shutdowns or layoffs during the season.

The Mets continue to dangle Niese and Gee, but interest has been limited, according to an organizational source. Ideally, the Mets can trade Niese and keep Gee in the bullpen as a potential spot starter once Matz arrives.

Over the last four seasons, the Mets have promoted Harvey, Zack Wheeler, deGrom and Syndergaard to the major leagues, and Matz for now appears to be the last of the elite talents in the pipeline. But that can change fast, as deGrom’s emergence from the pack two years ago in the minors demonstrated.

But Harvey, Wheeler, deGrom and Syndergaard each pitched at least a half-season at Triple-A before getting a call to the major leagues.

“Matz has only pitched at Triple-A for [11] starts,” Alderson said. “So he’s realistically inexperienced at that level. Nothing stands out that he needs to work on, but getting more experience at that level is always beneficial.”

[url]http://nypost.com/2015/06/07/mets-hint-at-call-up-time-for-stud-lefty-steven-matz/

Ashie62
Jun 07 2015 03:28 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

Gee is back in the pen, So back to five.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2015 12:52 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

Gee starting Sunday, so we're back to 6, this time around.

#fuckedup

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2015 12:55 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

I thought that was still the plan. Six-man rotation, but Gee eats it if there's a day off or a rainout.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2015 01:01 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

[crossout:34ewt2tq]But I don't see an offday or rainout.[/crossout:34ewt2tq] nevermind I get it.

Whatever, this is weird.

Ceetar
Jun 12 2015 01:10 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

the other concern here though, is that the Mets will be using 9 hitters in the middle of next week. (well, 'hitters') So 6 man rotation, 9 guys batting, 8 guys in the pen. That's 23.

It's a nice bench.

Edgy MD
Jun 12 2015 01:12 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

It's new territory and an all-new flavor. It's greasy and it's smokey. With an unusual combination of hickory and fennel.

I don't know how the starter-hording is gonna play out. I'm going to hope it protects the Mets from the attrition that will consume other teams over the long hot summer.

My greater concern is this whacked-out American League bench policy — four reserves, including two outfielders and two catchers, one of whom can't answer the bell. It's as crazy or crazier than the six man roto.

Frayed Knot
Jun 12 2015 01:24 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

So Syndergaard gets bumped to Monday and the highest scoring team in all of baseball (by [u:1l1dsydi]50 runs[/u:1l1dsydi] over the NYY of all teams in 2nd). Better him than Gee I suppose.
Syndy and Harvey get to bat in their games while Niese & Colon get DH'd for in the back half of the home-and-home.

I'd like to think the catching situation will be straightened out by then -- most likely with Plawecki either DL'ing or AAA'ing it -- and another bat brought up which almost has to be an IFer. Murphy's at least a week away meaning someone (Muno most likely) is going to get a short term boost in salary and meal money and then go right back down.
Of course Tejada will be back by then so who knows after that.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 12 2015 01:28 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

If I were a guy with tickets to Sunday;s game (and I am) I'd be kinda pissed.

Fortunately, I'm also going Monday.

But still. Gee-Syndy vs. best offense is worse than Syndy - Hovvey

Ceetar
Jun 12 2015 01:30 PM
Re: A Half Dozen

eh, rotations change. Few people actually bought tickets for Sunday with Thor in mind, was just lucky.(Also, I'd rather have seen Gee start his last start, so there's that)

Also Muno is already back.