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Allez les Expos?

Mets – Willets Point
Aug 20 2015 08:10 AM

The New York Times reports that Montreal has baseball fever.

Personally, I'd love to have a team in Montreal again, although I think that neither moving one of the current teams nor expanding again would necessarily be good for baseball on the whole.

Although, if they do expand to 32 teams I think that would be a great opportunity to realign MLB into four regional leagues of eight teams each.

Ceetar
Aug 20 2015 08:21 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I don't really believe that Montreal has baseball fever beyond a small subset.

Strongly favor a team in NWish Jersey though.

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 08:29 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I think we can rattle off 25 regions more deserving of an
MLB team than NW New Jersey.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 08:37 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

[list=1:9m1zl4eh][*:9m1zl4eh]Connecticut[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Norfolk/Virginia Beach[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Buffalo[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Vancouver[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]San Juan[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Charlotte[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Mexico City[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Monterrey[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Honolulu[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]New Orleans[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Um...[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Er...[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Indianapolis?[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]Dallas?[/*:m:9m1zl4eh]
[*:9m1zl4eh]...[/*:m:9m1zl4eh][/list:o:9m1zl4eh]

Mets – Willets Point
Aug 20 2015 08:43 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Portland, San Antonio, Santo Domingo.

Havana, if relations with Cuba continue to improve.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 08:49 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

The Sacramento Goldies!

The Austin Freaks!

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Aug 20 2015 09:14 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

antitrust exemption won;t allow a team in New Jersey even though it probably would work as a thing. Certainly couldn't hurt keeping Mets feet to the fire.

I am in favor of Tampa losing their team; they don't support it and they were stupid to have built that ugly stadium in the first place. Would like to have another reason to visit Montreal.

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 20 2015 09:22 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
[list=1][*]Connecticut[/*:m]
[*]Norfolk/Virginia Beach[/*:m]
[*]Buffalo[/*:m]
[*]Vancouver[/*:m]
[*]San Juan[/*:m]
[*]Charlotte[/*:m]
[*]Mexico City[/*:m]
[*]Monterrey[/*:m]
[*]Honolulu[/*:m]
[*]New Orleans[/*:m]
[*]Um...[/*:m]
[*]Er...[/*:m]
[*]Indianapolis?[/*:m]
[*]Dallas?[/*:m]
[*]...[/*:m][/list:o]


Tennessee. San Jose.

Ceetar
Aug 20 2015 09:24 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
antitrust exemption won;t allow a team in New Jersey even though it probably would work as a thing. Certainly couldn't hurt keeping Mets feet to the fire.

I am in favor of Tampa losing their team; they don't support it and they were stupid to have built that ugly stadium in the first place. Would like to have another reason to visit Montreal.


antitrust makes any expansion a tricky conversation in many cases.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 09:26 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Yeah, the real dream for me isn't adding a team here or removing a team there. It's blowing the anti-trust exemption sky-high.

Ceetar
Aug 20 2015 09:36 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Let's blow away the blackout rules first, would save me some money.

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 20 2015 09:38 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I do think Northern New Jersey should have a team, and so should Connecticut. And there should be American League teams in Philadelphia and St. Louis, maybe not in the city but in the outer suburbs. (If the Athletics leave Oakland I'd love to see them go to King of Prussia, Pennsylvania.)

Vic Sage
Aug 20 2015 09:40 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 03 2015 09:08 AM

As the child of Brooklyn Dodger fans, i'm never in favor of a team abandoning a fan base so an owner can make more money elsewhere.

Basically, owners own a "franchise"; that is, the right to operate a team in a specific location, under the umbrella of league guidelines and regulations. The way a radio/cable/tv company has the right to operate a channel on a certain band/frequency/channel of public airwaves, or a public utility has the right to run its power lines/pipe lines in a certain region. If an owner doesn't like having a team in the city he's in, he should be required to sell the team to another owner in that locale. If there is no buyer, he can only sell his franchise back to the league (at a discounted rate), who can then sell the team (i.e., its existing contracts and properties) to an owner in whatever city they deem has the best ability to support a MLB franchise (but, without requiring the city to pay for a billionaire's ballpark!) -- it may be the original city, or some other that has put together a solid proposal for MLB to consider.

I'd love to see another team in Montreal, but not at the expense of Tampa, unless the TB owner sells the franchise back to the league and the league deems that Tampa has been unable or unwilling to support a franchise and Montreal has a superior proposal. I don't want to see a TB owner carpetbag his way to big profits at that community's expense.

As long as MLB has an anti-trust exemption, i'd like to see them use their power to benefit the greatest number of fans and communities, not just individual billionaires. If their just going to employ their exemption for their own enrichment, then screw them and repeal the exemption, and let them compete in an open market.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 09:50 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I'm certainly of the belief that they will and do use their exemption for their own benefit. And that they hurt baseball fans and damage the culture of the game every day with it.

batmagadanleadoff
Aug 20 2015 09:54 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

[list=1][*]Connecticut[/*:m]
[*]Norfolk/Virginia Beach[/*:m]
[*]Buffalo[/*:m]
[*]Vancouver[/*:m]
[*]San Juan[/*:m]
[*]Charlotte[/*:m]
[*]Mexico City[/*:m]
[*]Monterrey[/*:m]
[*]Honolulu[/*:m]
[*]New Orleans[/*:m]
[*]Um...[/*:m]
[*]Er...[/*:m]
[*]Indianapolis?[/*:m]
[*]Dallas?[/*:m]
[*]...[/*:m][/list:o]


Baseball has a Dallas team. The Texas Rangers, stadiumed in Arlington, TX, play in the Dallas/Fort Worth market.





If baseball ever returns to Montreal, I'd hope that the new team is named the Expos and that they wear the original Expos uni. But best remaining market? That's easy. And it'll never happen.


Brooklyn.


TRIVIA: Buffalo, #3 on your list, is the only city/metropolitan area that was designated to host baseball in the proposed Continental League of the early '60s that, to date, never got an MLB franchise.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 10:01 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I know where the Texas Rangers play, but thanks for the map. Brooklyn has a team too, in the same spirit.

I tend to believe that the Dallas/FW/Arlington region has the surfeit of monetary and population growth to support a second team with the Dallas name on the jerseys.

[list]Interesting Dallas fact: Nobody really agrees about why the place is called "Dallas."[/list:u]

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 20 2015 10:07 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I always assumed it was named after Steve Dallas, of Bloom County.

MFS62
Aug 20 2015 10:16 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
[list=1][*]Connecticut[/*:m]
[*]Norfolk/Virginia Beach[/*:m]
[*]Buffalo[/*:m]
[*]Vancouver[/*:m]
[*]San Juan[/*:m]
[*]Charlotte[/*:m]
[*]Mexico City[/*:m]
[*]Monterrey[/*:m]
[*]Honolulu[/*:m]
[*]New Orleans[/*:m]
[*]Um...[/*:m]
[*]Er...[/*:m]
[*]Indianapolis?[/*:m]
[*]Dallas?[/*:m]
[*]...[/*:m][/list:o]

And every city that now has an American League team. That shit they play, without pitchers hitting or strategy, isn't really baseball.

Oh, and screw Montreal. home runs should not be measures in meters.

Later

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 10:19 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I certainly disagree. The metric system was one of the distinct charms about the team, along with Youppi! and French folk songs on the organ.

Ceetar
Aug 20 2015 10:30 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

MFS62 wrote:


Oh, and screw Montreal. home runs should not be measures in meters.

Later


I think all home runs should be measured in meters.

I like the idea of a sub-100 meter home run. Only 2 or 3 this year so far, all at Fenway Park. Last year just two, one at Fenway and one at Tropicana.

MFS62
Aug 20 2015 10:33 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
I certainly disagree. The metric system was one of the distinct charms about the team, ...

I know. Its is one of the things about which my Canadian baseball fan friends and I kid each other.
I once stumped one of them by sending him an email that said, "OK, so you measure gas in liters, temperature in Celsius and home runs in metres. (That's the way he spells it) I saw the box score for last night's Blue Jays game. It said the attendance was 18,674. How many people is that in American numbers"?

He gave up.

Later

Frayed Knot
Aug 20 2015 10:36 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

[fimg=300:3tlx6ow4]http://cdn.baseballamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/www.randomhouse.com_-197x300.jpeg[/fimg:3tlx6ow4]

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 10:45 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Between the Mets and Yanks and the minor league/independent teams
the Greater NY are is saturated enough with no room for more.
Ceetar wrote:
I think all home runs should be measured in meters.

I think we should change your name from Optimistic Mets Fan
to Contrary Mets Fan.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 10:48 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I think, really, there's room for about six teams in the New York City region. London has five Premier League football clubs (I think), and dozens more in the lesser divisions.

Greater New York should be flooded with teams. Trust me that it would be awesome. I would never lie to you. No, not about this.

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 11:01 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

It's fine the way it is. Baseball is dying, just ask SJR!

Mets – Willets Point
Aug 20 2015 11:03 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
I certainly disagree. The metric system was one of the distinct charms about the team, along with Youppi! and French folk songs on the organ.


I also enjoyed seeing the lanceur surrender a coup de circuit. Actually the announcer at Stade Olympique did a great job of saying everything in French & then English, quickly but not sacrificing clarity.

Edgy MD wrote:
I think, really, there's room for about six teams in the New York City region. London has five Premier League football clubs (I think), and dozens more in the lesser divisions.

Greater New York should be flooded with teams. Trust me that it would be awesome. I would never lie to you. No, not about this.


I believe London has 14 clubs in the top four divisions (the Premier League and Football League), and has had as many as 7 in the Premier League at the same time.

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 11:05 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Soccer clubs are like churches over there, baseball isn't that way here.

Ceetar
Aug 20 2015 11:07 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:

Ceetar wrote:
I think all home runs should be measured in meters.

I think we should change your name from Optimistic Mets Fan
to Contrary Mets Fan.



Metric over US any day. Let sanity reign.

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 11:08 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

They tried that when I was a kid, didn't last very long.

Mets – Willets Point
Aug 20 2015 11:12 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
Soccer clubs are like churches over there, baseball isn't that way here.


Kind of a chicken and an egg thing though since we've always had a franchise system with territorial rights. We'll never know what might have happened in the US with a club system.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 11:18 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
Soccer clubs are like churches over there, baseball isn't that way here.

Yeah, we just have artificial controls on which churches you can join, sucking all the fun out of church!!

And... what Willets said.

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 11:21 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Anyway, I'm anti-expansion and in the disliking more watering down
of major league talent club.. If Montreal wants a team and can make
it work, it should take an existing one that isn't doing well.

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 11:23 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

And, of course, if Brooklyn should ever get a team and wants to
call it Brooklyn Whatevers... the Mets and Yankees have to change
their names to Queens and Bronx bbbyyy...

Ceetar
Aug 20 2015 11:25 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
Anyway, I'm anti-expansion and in the disliking more watering down
of major league talent club.. If Montreal wants a team and can make
it work, it should take an existing one that isn't doing well.



I'm all for expansion myself. I don't think it'll water it down so much if you also push the boundaries of finding players. Plus more clubs means more interest means more kids pursuing it as a dream? Also, with more teams you get to keep the current playoff system of wildcards and lots of races late while lowering the percentage of teams actually making the postseason. Given the pitching situation these days, you could almost use some watering down.


and
screw soccer.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 11:30 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Nah, it never worked that way with the Dodgers, Yankees and Giants. This is America! You should be able to call yourself whatever you want!

But yeah, I don't think a belief in the scarcity of talent should lead to rationing. And we're not necessarily talking about increasing the number of MLB clubs. With the blessed fall of the anti-trust exemption regime should come the end of affiliation in the sense that we know it today, and hopefully lead to a system of promotion and relegation, where lesser division clubs fight for their own glory and that of their fans and localities, instead of sublimating their interests in favor of those of the parent club.

Young Trenton fans shouldn't be growing up wondering when the players on their team are going to be snatched by the Yankees. They should be growing up dreaming of their team beating the snot out of the Yankees. America!

Mets – Willets Point
Aug 20 2015 11:33 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Pro/Rel now!

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 11:36 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
This is America! You should be able to call yourself whatever you want!

You can call me not buying it, but we've been through this
with the beloved Brooklyn Nets.

Edgy MD
Aug 20 2015 11:43 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

And the hapless Knicks weren't forced to change their name oh no.

d'Kong76
Aug 20 2015 12:07 PM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I hate days when the Corona Casanovas are off.

Gwreck
Aug 20 2015 09:23 PM
Re: Allez les Expos?

The London comparison is flawed because of the relative popularity of soccer there compared to everything else.

New York does have 9 major professional teams. Call it 11 if you want to include the soccer teams.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Aug 20 2015 10:49 PM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Mets – Willets Point wrote:
Pro/Rel now!


Oh, God, I'd love this.

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 21 2015 03:33 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I wouldn't. I could easily see the Mets spending 8 to 10 years in AAA. It would be an interesting setup if I was an impartial observer.

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 04:52 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Changing American baseball to be more like English football is
an absurd dream to me. I was told earlier in this thread, this is
America. That's right, not bloody England.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 06:22 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Gwreck wrote:
The London comparison is flawed because of the relative popularity of soccer there compared to everything else.

Chicken/egg. If we allow the billionaires to artificially control the proliferation of professional baseball, of course it's going to artificially control the popularity, too, and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 06:24 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
Changing American baseball to be more like English football is
an absurd dream to me. I was told earlier in this thread, this is
America. That's right, not bloody England.

Yes, it's America, from where we spread the gospel of free markets. But we paradoxically run our sports leagues as cartels — presuming to control which consumers get access to major league ball, which pro-players are allowed to move to which teams, and which amateur players are allowed to begin their career, most of them getting chicken feed and they better like it.

We believe it hurts both commerce and culture to let other industries operate this way, enriches the very few while gouging the consumer and cheating the entrepreneur, but in baseball, we accept it, because that's the way it was set up. But it's important to remember, that's the way it was set up in the Gilded Age — an era defined by robber barons, the greatest monopolies the country has ever known, gross exploitation, and deep social problems. The system we have is an outmoded vestige. To say it belongs in a museum is to understate it. It belongs in a very unpleasant museum.

Ceetar
Aug 21 2015 07:36 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Gwreck wrote:
The London comparison is flawed because of the relative popularity of soccer there compared to everything else.

New York does have 9 major professional teams. Call it 11 if you want to include the soccer teams.


I don't. Might include the WNBA though.



Pro/reg would probably be a disaster. And I hate the concept anyway. Even if there was a time that free expansion of MLB outside of it's monopoly would've ingrained it into culture like soccer in other countries, that time is past. I think in Baseball today it'd diminish dedicated fanbases. Sure, there will always be a core, but it'd be smaller. Many people, probably me included, would find a 'pro' team to root for if the Mets got relegated. That might be fine at first, like having an AL team, but what two years down the road when I've fallen in love with the new team and players and their story and the Mets get promoted again and I'm not as attached?

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 21 2015 07:40 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

If the Mets got sent down to AAA, I wouldn't find another team to root for, I'd just stop paying attention. It might take a year or so, but they'd totally lose me, and probably would never get me back.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 07:46 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

It wouldn't be AAA. And I don't expect the Mets would be relegated. Because they're awesome. And they have me supporting them.

But really, the idea of creating a fair and just system is to consider it not merely by guessing how it would affect us — for we have certainly been disproportionately blessed — but by how it would affect all members of society ... which would have a huge influence on how it would affect us.

batmagadanleadoff
Aug 21 2015 07:50 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

In light of your post, one might also reason that it's fitting that baseball continues to operate as a monopoly all these years later. After all, none of this has changed much:

Edgy MD wrote:



... it's important to remember, that's the way [baseball] was set up in the Gilded Age — an era defined by robber barons, the greatest monopolies the country has ever known, gross exploitation, and deep social problems.


Well, maybe we're doing a better job of reigning in monopolies, so long as they're not professional sports leagues. But as to the rest of that ... it's just as bad as it ever was.

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 21 2015 07:56 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
It wouldn't be AAA. And I don't expect the Mets would be relegated. Because they're awesome. And they have me supporting them.

But really, the idea of creating a fair and just system is to consider it not merely by guessing how it would affect us — for we have certainly been disproportionately blessed — but by how it would affect all members of society ... which would have a huge influence on how it would affect us.


I expect there's probably a way to create a fair and just system that doesn't include the possibility of a team dropping out of the major leagues.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 08:00 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
It wouldn't be AAA. And I don't expect the Mets would be relegated. Because they're awesome. And they have me supporting them.

But really, the idea of creating a fair and just system is to consider it not merely by guessing how it would affect us — for we have certainly been disproportionately blessed — but by how it would affect all members of society ... which would have a huge influence on how it would affect us.


I expect there's probably a way to create a fair and just system that doesn't include the possibility of a team dropping out of the major leagues.

I notice that you're not really thinking like a winner, here.

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 21 2015 08:08 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

In 45 years as a Mets fan, I've seen quite a bit of losing!

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 08:54 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
Yes, it's America, from where we spread the gospel of free markets. But we paradoxically run our sports leagues as cartels — presuming to control which consumers get access to major league ball, which pro-players are allowed to move to which teams, and which amateur players are allowed to begin their career, most of them getting chicken feed and they better like it.

Anyone can access major league baseball. Pro-players sign contracts and have
an intricately negotiated agreement and can strike, amatuer players begin when
they make a the team (it's frickin' sports, Edge), and most minor league players
aren't poor.The players have the most powerful union in the country.
We believe it hurts both commerce and culture to let other industries operate this way, enriches the very few while gouging the consumer and cheating the entrepreneur, but in baseball, we accept it, because that's the way it was set up. But it's important to remember, that's the way it was set up in the Gilded Age — an era defined by robber barons, the greatest monopolies the country has ever known, gross exploitation, and deep social problems. The system we have is an outmoded vestige. To say it belongs in a museum is to understate it. It belongs in a very unpleasant museum.

Hard to beleive you feel so strongly about all those things and still devote so
much love and time to such a vile picture you painted from your podium.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 09:15 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
Anyone can access major league baseball.

I want to start a team in Boise. I am unallowed to sign Max Scherzer no matter how much money I give him. If I even begin to negotiate with him, it's made clear to him and everybody else that they will never play big league ball again. Boise fans can go get wet. The backlash would be even more vicious if I started my team in Park Slope.

d'Kong76 wrote:
Pro-players sign contracts and have an intricately negotiated agreement and can strike,

Under terms that are anathema to the rest of US employment law.

d'Kong76 wrote:
amatuer players begin when they make a the team

Amateur players begin their pro careers by being told they'll play for who the industry wants them to play for, no matter what their preference.

d'Kong76 wrote:
and most minor league players aren't poor.

Until a minor league player is placed on a 40-man roster, monthly salaries are $1150 for the short season teams, $1300 for low A and $1500 for high A. For players repeating a year at the same level, the salary goes up $50 each year. For AA, the monthly salary is $1700 and it goes up $100 per month for subsequent years. For AAA, the monthly salary is $2150 per month and it goes up to $2400 the second year and $2700 the third year. (source)

d'Kong76 wrote:
The players have the most powerful union in the country.

Minor league players aren't allowed in the union.

d'Kong76 wrote:
Hard to beleive you feel so strongly about all those things and still devote so much love and time to such a vile picture you painted from your podium.

I don't believe I'm on a podium, but rather just responding in the natural course of the conversation. I like the game, but disagree with the system of the industry and its captains. I take that a lot of folks here dislike the captains far more than I do, but still pursue the joys of the game.

Montreal should have a team that some guy in an office in New York can't just decide will cease to exist.

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 09:25 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I looked up the minor league salary stories too and was just going
to withdraw or amend that comment. However, to be fair, these are
young men who if were in college (for example) they'd be struggling to
make ends meet anyway unless their parents can afford to float their boat.

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 09:27 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

As for the other stuff, I'm aware of all of it but really don't care. It's
baseball. I guess I should of just stayed out of it.

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 09:28 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Oh, and god save the queen.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 09:42 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
I looked up the minor league salary stories too and was just going
to withdraw or amend that comment. However, to be fair, these are
young men who if were in college (for example) they'd be struggling to
make ends meet anyway unless their parents can afford to float their boat.

Sure, it ain't much, but neither is it nothing. But it sure isn't based on what the market will bear.

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 09:48 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I'd be more than happy to go play A ball for $1,000/month...
where do I sign?

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 09:56 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Also, there are plenty of other industries/trades where young people work for
little or nothing as apprentices/interns to get their foot in the door and a chance
for advancement.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 10:06 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
I'd be more than happy to go play A ball for $1,000/month...
where do I sign?

I think you miss the spirit of the thing. I like to think I would too, but my skills don't allow it.

If I was the rare man who did have the skills and the small window of opportunity in my youth still remaining, I would hope it was worth more than $6,000 per year. Along with an understanding that if I tried to shop my skills to another team, the whole industry would blackball me. And the rich get richer.

As for the analogy of interns in other industries, many of those are exploitative too, and courts are starting to say so. But at least you have professional freedom of movement.

Ceetar
Aug 21 2015 10:11 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

There ARE some independent leagues. And other countries.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 10:18 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Yes. This is well known to the general baseball fan.

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 10:19 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
I think you miss the spirit of the thing.

Nah, I get it.

Ceetar
Aug 21 2015 10:24 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
Yes. This is well known to the general baseball fan.


and to many of the players as well!

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 10:27 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Ceetar
Aug 21 2015 10:32 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

The Long Island Ducks, and the Japanese leagues, and (probably not the Australian league, since that's sort of MLB) other countries are allowed to sign Max Scherzer when his contract expires.

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 21 2015 10:38 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Yeah, like the Long Island Ducks would be a viable option for Max Scherzer.

What would benefit the players would be if we could turn back the clock to 1902 or so, when the American and National League were true rivals and there was no farm system and no draft, without, of course, restoring the reserve clause. High school and college players would have the ability to shop their talents around before signing. If, after a year in Louisville you can find a better deal in Omaha, you sign with Omaha for next year. And then if you succeed, maybe Kansas City or Cincinnati will come to you with an offer.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 10:40 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Ceetar wrote:
The Long Island Ducks, and the Japanese leagues, and (probably not the Australian league, since that's sort of MLB) other countries are allowed to sign Max Scherzer when his contract expires.

Reductionism is a terrible way to argue. You assume the stupidity of your opponent while engaging in willful ignorance of your own.

Please stop.

Ceetar
Aug 21 2015 10:49 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
The Long Island Ducks, and the Japanese leagues, and (probably not the Australian league, since that's sort of MLB) other countries are allowed to sign Max Scherzer when his contract expires.

Reductionism is a terrible way to argue. You assume the stupidity of your opponent while engaging in willful ignorance of your own.

Please stop.


I'm not arguing anything. I'm merely pointing out facts that (should) contribute to the discussion. But maybe you're so set on how things should be you're just going to dismiss them as anomalies?

I mean, there's no similar rules for the other sports right? But I don't see competing leagues taking off. CFL isn't even televised here and it might even be a better game.

If they dropped the monopoly today, Where is your Boise team playing? Against who? Why would Scherzer or hell Puello, even consider playing for them? Where are they getting the money to pay competitive rates anyway?

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 10:52 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Ceetar wrote:
I'm merely pointing out facts that (should) contribute to the discussion.

Here's two other facts: grass is green and the sky is blue.

See how infuriating that is?

Ceetar
Aug 21 2015 11:02 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Edgy MD wrote:
I'm merely pointing out facts that (should) contribute to the discussion.

Here's two other facts: grass is green and the sky is blue.

See how infuriating that is?


my facts were relevant to MLB's monopoly and your point that the Boise Huskers couldn't sign Max Scherzer, when in fact they can.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 11:04 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Your facts were obvious to any middle schooler and already understood within the context of the conversation.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Aug 21 2015 11:04 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

To get back on topic any time there's been a threat of a competing league it has led almost directly to large increases in salaries, new teams (the Mets) and/or both. Shirley its only a matter of time before the right alignment of talent and agent blows up the draft.

Benjamin Grimm
Aug 21 2015 11:28 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Where is your Boise team playing? Against who? Why would Scherzer or hell Puello, even consider playing for them? Where are they getting the money to pay competitive rates anyway?


="Ceetar, 12]My facts were relevant to MLB's monopoly and your point that the Boise Huskers couldn't sign Max Scherzer, when in fact they can.



It only took you 13 minutes to completely contradict yourself.

d'Kong76
Aug 21 2015 11:40 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I think he meant a) they wouldn't be able to afford him (can't) b) they
could, meaning would be allowed to... I hope.

I'd like to hear some of the soccer heads tell us more about what's
so wonderful about the UEFA or FIFA or whoever versus MLB.

Ceetar
Aug 21 2015 11:53 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

d'Kong76 wrote:
I think he meant a) they wouldn't be able to afford him (can't) b) they
could, meaning would be allowed to... I hope.

I'd like to hear some of the soccer heads tell us more about what's
so wonderful about the UEFA or FIFA or whoever versus MLB.



yeah, that. on both accounts.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 11:57 AM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I'm not speaking on behalf of soccer, so much as against anti-competitive behavior.

But what's great that I would love is the presence of a team in every small town, with the players fighting not merely for their own advancement but for the glory of the team and the town and the fans, as it should be. That's great. And it once existed in American baseball and made baseball the quintessential American game, where every farm boy in Kansas knew the names of the starting nine of his team, and where they worked in the offseason, as much or more than he knew the big league players.

Affiliation — another anti-competiive vestige of the reserve clause ruined all that.

Promotion relegation — along with tournament play — would allow that ambitious Kansas team not merely to sell off her players to higher leagues, but potentially to resign and retain all her players, and to climb into those higher leagues and compete against the best, all for the glory of Topeka or Shawnee.

Frayed Knot
Aug 21 2015 12:22 PM
Re: Allez les Expos?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
To get back on topic any time there's been a threat of a competing league it has led almost directly to large increases in salaries, new teams (the Mets) and/or both. Shirley its only a matter of time before the right alignment of talent and agent blows up the draft.


The problem with killing the draft is that it's treated legally as something that's been bargained into place -- as opposed to the old reserve clause which was forced on the players in contradiction to all laws -- so the remedy, according to several court decisions, would be for the players to collectively bargain it out of existence. It's how the NFL, with even less competition to their league as compared to other sports, gets away with not just having a draft but also with dictating exactly when (with maybe a one-year window) a player can apply for it.
IOW, it's not something that's going to be over-turned merely by some highly-aggressive agent attached to a prodigious young talent.

Edgy MD
Aug 21 2015 12:40 PM
Re: Allez les Expos?

I'm not so sure I concur. The draft, as much as it may be treated as such with regard to professionals, was never bargained into place by the amateur talent it most affects as they seek their first professional opportunities. If two agents and 10 high-end prospects announce that they have no intention of negotiating only with one team, it'd terrify MLB lawyers, and shake them to their core.

These players might lose anyhow, of course.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Aug 21 2015 12:46 PM
Re: Allez les Expos?

Yeah I'm sure there's enough legal wiggle room to make a stand anyway.

Frayed Knot
Aug 21 2015 12:58 PM
Re: Allez les Expos?

More than a few legal challenges have been made to the NFL's draft by players who didn't even want to circumvent the draft but just wanted to enter a year earlier than the rule says they can and even that minor point couldn't get past a court.
MLB's draft, which allows numerous points of entry: after HS, from Juco, after 3rd year of college, 4th year of college, and where independent leagues, domestic and foreign, do exist, would seem even more safe from legal challenges.