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Matt Harvey question

cooby Sep 21 2015 07:14 PM

Guys, it's a rare occasion that I can watch or listen to a game. But I am aware that they are farming out innings for Matt Harvey. Is there a reason why? On the way home in my car tonight I was listening and they said something about one more start before postseason. It's September 21! It's what, two weeks away? Tom Seaver would have ripped a new ass for someone if they had told him that on September 21. Now. If there is a medical reason for this and I don't know it, could you please tell me? Or is he that much of a glass arm?

themetfairy Sep 21 2015 07:18 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Scott Boras is determined to screw us over. EOS.

cooby Sep 21 2015 07:20 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

So I'm seeing these "Matt Harvey Controversy" stories and Boras is mentioned. He can't pitch more than 180 innings? WTF? An inning could be 3 pitches!

cooby Sep 21 2015 07:22 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Wait, hold he phone, I forgot about his Tommy John surgery

themetfairy Sep 21 2015 07:23 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Exactly. And to spring this BS on the team on Labor Day Weekend was ridiculously manipulative, even with the TJ surgery.

Zvon Sep 21 2015 07:24 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

cooby wrote: So I'm seeing these "Matt Harvey Controversy" stories and Boras is mentioned. He can't pitch more than 180 innings? WTF? An inning could be 3 pitches! I'm with you Coob. They should be counting pitches, not innings.

cooby Sep 21 2015 07:24 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

He'll be okay. (but geez I didn't know Boras was still around....)

cooby Sep 21 2015 07:24 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Zvon wrote: cooby wrote: So I'm seeing these "Matt Harvey Controversy" stories and Boras is mentioned. He can't pitch more than 180 innings? WTF? An inning could be 3 pitches! I'm with you Coob. They should be counting pitches, not innings. Exactly!

Frayed Knot Sep 21 2015 07:27 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

cooby wrote: Guys, it's a rare occasion that I can watch or listen to a game. But I am aware that they are farming out innings for Matt Harvey. Is there a reason why? Basically because he has yet to pitch a full Major League season, going from 10 starts as a rookie in 2012, to 26 starts/178 innings in 2013 before his injury, then no pitching at all in 2014, and now is attempting to go start to finish for the first time ever. It's is generally thought that it's not so much the number of innings thrown but also the increase over and above what he's thrown in the past, trying not to exceed the previous max by too much at once. That this is his first season after recovering from the ligament transfer makes everyone even more cautious. Then there are other factors such as it not being handled very delicately by his agent while Harvey himself tries to play all sides of the fence by not publicly disagreeing with said agent, or team mgmt, or the fans, or destroying the tough-guy image he's adopted over the years.

cooby Sep 21 2015 07:31 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Well I'm glad there is a real reason for it and not Primadonnaness.

themetfairy Sep 21 2015 07:49 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

It's not an either/or thing. There's a bit of both in play.

Zvon Sep 21 2015 07:53 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

I don't feel that Harvey's concern over his arm and his future is driven by primadonnaness. Not saying he doesn't fall into that category but I don't think it applies here. there is a legitimate concern, I just personally feel it's overblown. I love made up words :)

cooby Sep 21 2015 08:06 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

[flash=]me too![/flash]

Edgy MD Sep 21 2015 08:36 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Zvon wrote: I don't feel that Harvey's concern over his arm and his future is driven by primadonnaness. Not saying he doesn't fall into that category but I don't think it applies here. there is a legitimate concern, I just personally feel it's overblown. I love made up words :) I love talk of Tom Seaver ripping new asses.

MFS62 Sep 21 2015 09:16 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

cooby wrote: He'll be okay. (but geez I didn't know Boras was still around....) (As the old joke goes) He's harder to get rid of than a condo in Florida. Later

cooby Sep 22 2015 06:39 AM Re: Matt Harvey question

Edgy MD wrote: I don't feel that Harvey's concern over his arm and his future is driven by primadonnaness. Not saying he doesn't fall into that category but I don't think it applies here. there is a legitimate concern, I just personally feel it's overblown. I love made up words :) I love talk of Tom Seaver ripping new asses. I kinda like the mental picture of Tom Seaver ripping new asses

Benjamin Grimm Sep 22 2015 06:42 AM Re: Matt Harvey question

That can be Zvon's next Photoshop project.

cooby Sep 22 2015 01:53 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Yeah!

Zvon Sep 22 2015 02:00 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Then I'll need some details. Is he ripping them entirely new asses, buttocks and all, or simply ripping them additional anuses?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 22 2015 02:35 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Use your imagination!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 23 2015 11:30 AM Re: Matt Harvey question

I don't feel that Harvey's concern over his arm and his future is driven by primadonnaness. Not saying he doesn't fall into that category but I don't think it applies here. there is a legitimate concern, I just personally feel it's overblown. Here's the thing: it's a completely legitimate concern, and from a human-being/not-sports-fan perspective, it certainly isn't overblown. Hell, if you remove yourself from our team allegiances and the weirdness of the warrior ethos that's been instilled in professional pajama-pants-wearers since time immemorial, the smart thing for him to do would be to shut it down. It's not like the significantly-higher-than-zero risk Harvey's bearing here is shared or mitigated in any real, significant way. Still, though... hey, BATMAN! JUST PITCH, YOU RICH PRICK! I'll hang up and listen.

Ceetar Sep 23 2015 11:44 AM Re: Matt Harvey question

I don't feel that Harvey's concern over his arm and his future is driven by primadonnaness. Not saying he doesn't fall into that category but I don't think it applies here. there is a legitimate concern, I just personally feel it's overblown. Here's the thing: it's a completely legitimate concern, and from a human-being/not-sports-fan perspective, it certainly isn't overblown. Hell, if you remove yourself from our team allegiances and the weirdness of the warrior ethos that's been instilled in professional pajama-pants-wearers since time immemorial, the smart thing for him to do would be to shut it down. It's not like the significantly-higher-than-zero risk Harvey's bearing here is shared or mitigated in any real, significant way. Still, though... hey, BATMAN! JUST PITCH, YOU RICH PRICK! I'll hang up and listen. in the sense that pitching is harmful to arms, yes. But should Tom Brady just retire? Football is dangerous you know. Window Washers shouldn't wash above the second floor. Delivery guys shouldn't deliver past midnight. Matt Harvey isn't in any more danger of hurting himself by pitching here than he was pitching 3 years ago or 3 years from now or next Spring. This is what he's being paid to do. This is his job.

metsmarathon Sep 23 2015 12:34 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

Ceetar wrote: in the sense that pitching is harmful to arms, yes. But should Tom Brady just retire? Football is dangerous you know. Window Washers shouldn't wash above the second floor. Delivery guys shouldn't deliver past midnight. Matt Harvey isn't in any more danger of hurting himself by pitching here than he was pitching 3 years ago or 3 years from now or next Spring. This is what he's being paid to do. This is his job. pitching is harmful to his arm, moreso as innings and pitches mount, and even moreso as he just had a major ligament replacement surgery last year. blowing out an elbow is not a random occurrence that can happen at any time, to any person making a throwing motion, be it gently or swiftly, repeatedly or singly. it happens for a reason, with causes and contributing factors. as far as medical knowledge about it stands, increasing innings may appears to increase risk, and the current understanding is that that increase is not exactly linear. or maybe it is. but at around 180 innings or so, there appears a tipping point, where the risk of additional damage increases tremendously. a knee in the curve, i would expect. the risk level is not flat, it is not smooth. it increases sharply as innings increase towards and above 180 innings. (if the risk level were flat, there would be the same amount of risk on pitch 1 as in inning 180. since innings limits are a thing, it must not be). is hte knee in the curve at 180? who knows for certain. it depends on the individual, and the individual's circumstances, and may not be fully known. and, as with all probability thingies, if nothing happens, it doesn;t mean there was no risk. and if something does happen, it doesn't mean the risk was 100%. window washers don't wash above the second floor without additional precautions. and as their height increases, so do those precautions, as well as their risk level. i don't think i could get a damned thing delivered where i am after midnight, because everything is closed. 3 years ago, matt harvey was a year away from blowing out his arm. this is his job, true. but it's also his career. if he blows out his arm again, his career may well be over. he is guaranteed exactly zero dollars of income after this season is over. if he stays healthy, he may see close to 200 million fucking dollars, or possibly way more, come his way. that's 200 times what he has already made in his career. TWO HUNDRED TIMES! he's making $600k this year, and faces a potential payday of $25M/year! a 40x increase in salary!!! have you ever had to balance your job against your career? if "doing your job" could cost you a chance at fulfilling your career goals, to the extent of a 200x increase in lifetime pay, or a 40x increase in yearly salary... would the decision be so clear, so easy? fuck this primadonna shit. it's utter nonsense. tom seaver never had to make that decision, nor weigh those odds.

Ceetar Sep 23 2015 12:55 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

There is roughly no science or data on the matter that suggests more pitching is more dangerous. And i'm certainly not saying grind him to a pulp and let him throw 150 pitches every game. But monitor for signs of fatigue. Monitor the arm. study the tape, ask him how he feels. (There's a conspiracy theory for you, maybe he feels tired) they have machines that do some of this. Don't adhere to random numbers just because. That's arbitrary and pointless. His surgery was over 2 years ago. He's not partially recovered, he's fully recovered, as much as you can be. This isn't him trying to go 110% during rehab (which was a concern if I recall) As far as his career goes, of course. But he's not going to get $25 a year if he never throws 200IP. when that time comes the low innings total tends to hold you back. But again, it's not really about that, it's about there being no obvious reason for him to just stop at 180. In fact, there has to be at least a little concern that it's going to hurt him. he's running around pitching 80% right now and when the playoffs come, barring something stupid, he's going to suddenly be pitching 110% and pushing himself. This feels like doing chest presses for 6 months at 100 pounds, then dropping down to 80 for a month, then going up to 120. No trainer would recommend doing it like that.

cooby Sep 23 2015 02:04 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

That was kinda my whole thought process when I heard this in the first place. Won't he get rusty?

metsmarathon Sep 23 2015 02:05 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

he should be pitching 100% every night, or he's going to fuck up his mechanics, and also his results. when it comes time for the playoffs, i want him to continue pitching 100%, and not 105% or 110% or some other bullshit nonsense, or he's going to fuck up his mechanics, and also his results. but let's talk. 150 pitches in a game. bad, right? why? fatigue, right? the more fatigued you are, the more your mechanics are going to break down, and the more you're putting yourself at risk of injury. ok. fine. let's only throw 120 pitches, but lets do it every 5 nights. at the start of things, maybe fatigue doesn't set in. but after doing it 20 or 30 times, every fifth night, you would think that fatigue would set in earlier and earlier. or maybe not at all if you're superhuman. at some point, the fatigue comes in too soon, mechanics break down too early, and an injury is caused or contributed to. 2 years ago, he pitched 167 innings. then he took a year off after having his arm cut open. is it not reasonable to think that, if you were doing chest presses for 6 months at 100 pounds, then stopped for a year and a half, and started again, after 6 months, you would be fatigued? yes, his surgury was over 2 years ago. and reinjury during rehab is a major concern. i would argue that his first season back is still part of the recovery process. (it has been for all of my injuries in my own meager athletic career, but, fine, i was never surgically repaired.) his elbow was surgically repaired. i haven't checked the data, but i'm going to guess that pitchers who have had one TJS are more likely than the rest of the baseball population to have a second TJS. might be adviseable to mitigate that risk as best as possible. no, you're right, he won't be a $25M player if he never hits 200 IP in a season. but the 180 inning limit is a discussion for this season only, his first season back from TJS. throwing 180 innings this season will not hurt his future earnings if he pitches 200 innings in future seasons. but he's not stopping at 180, anyway. he'll nudge past it in his next start, and add onto it in the postseason. and i don't know about trainers and chest presses, but i do know that if you're planning to run a marathon, it's adviseable to taper beforehand. perhaps this is matt harvey's taper. (insert poop joke here)

Ceetar Sep 23 2015 02:19 PM Re: Matt Harvey question

metsmarathon wrote: is it not reasonable to think that, if you were doing chest presses for 6 months at 100 pounds, then stopped for a year and a half, and started again, after 6 months, you would be fatigued? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe all the rehab, even though it wasn't "pitching" has you in better shape. Maybe you've managed yourself better this year. Regardless, the 180 number has no magical significance or evidence to suggest it means anything. (neither does 100 pitches fwiw) I'm 100% on board with limited or skipping starts for a pitcher that's showing signs of fatigue, whether it's delivery, mechanics, effectiveness, or even the pitcher saying "I'm gassed". But that doesn't seem to be the case here, and the Mets, the doctors, and Boras all have different agendas and different focuses. Harvey himself is the least informed, but it's his arm. I'm more worried he'll strain something being pulled in different directions by different people. Additionally, all people are different. Some recover faster, slower, some can handle repetitive strains differently or show fatigue different. This is all without the obvious caveat that nothing has changed all season that we know about that should've altered the plan for Harvey so the seemingly sudden change of course seems even less informed.