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Post Mortem

Frayed Knot Nov 01 2015 11:34 PM

Speaking strictly for the World Series Familia wasn't good enough Clippard certainly wasn't good enough Murphy wasn't good enough - either with the bat OR with the glove Cespedes was near good enough d'Arnaud wasn't good enough Flores wasn't good enough Basically no one with the possible exceptions of Grandson & Conforto were good enough this past week. I still don't believe they were overmatched but they certainly were in this series. KC was a good team in the second year of their best run in three decades, plus they got every conceivable break -- both ones they created and ones that fell into their laps.

cooby classic Nov 01 2015 11:36 PM Re: Post Mortem

I hope Cespedes' knee is okay

metsmarathon Nov 01 2015 11:41 PM Re: Post Mortem

Swing for fences bad. Swinging for hits good. Swinging with a non-functional knee preposterous

Mets Willets Point Nov 01 2015 11:46 PM Re: Post Mortem

No game tomorrow. :(

Rockin' Doc Nov 01 2015 11:55 PM Re: Post Mortem

It's very disappointing to have lost 3 games that were well within our grasp, but the Mets failed to execute in the late innings. The Mets committed too many errors (physica and mental) in the late innings and the KC bullpen out pitched ours when the game was on the line. The ability of the Royals to play small ball and manufacture runs with speed seeme to rattle the Mets defense. Still, it was a very good season for the Mets. Far better than I ever imagined at the start of the season. Even after the Mets acquired Cespedes at the trade deadline, I never envisioned such a successful season. It wasn't until therir unstoppable run through the month of August that I suddenly felt they had a team capable of winning the World Series. With a fine, young starting pitching staff to keep the team in virtually every game the future looks bright going forward. Now Sandy needs to plug a few holes in the offense and get a reliable lefty for the pen and the Mets should have a strong team capable of returning to the World Series again next year. Thank you to the team for a wonderful season and for the first time in several seasons, I expect o have high expectations next spring.

Zvon Nov 02 2015 12:01 AM Re: Post Mortem Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 02 2015 12:13 AM

I said to my bros, right after we lost Tejada, that either Murphy or Flores would do something either miraculous with their gloves, or something horribly awful. Possibly both. Flores held his own. But Muffy... After that run of out of this world hitting in the postseason, this is so sad. If I was Flores I would cry. But I'm not and that's baseball. But it wasn't just Muffy. A number of things lead to this depressing moment. Look at the hitting tonight! Shit happened, mistakes were made, we sucked. And those Royals, they were a fuckin' pain in the ass. Still, what a great season. I'm always bummed out when the Mets season ends, which usually would be a month ago. And I also get bummed when the series is over (no matter who's in it) and there's no more baseball. So for that reason I'm doubly bummed. But we had some great moments. Some great moments to take away. The Captain's homer was just perfect. Conforto, our Super-Rook, hit two dingers, one a colossal blast. IN A WORLD SERIES GAME! Thors mighty hammer. What Harvey did tonight. And more. Right now this sucks, but this was awesome. We were in the World Series. This team could go on a run the next few years. Should go on a run. Just needs some tinkering. This is a good time to be a lifelong Mets fan.

Frayed Knot Nov 02 2015 12:04 AM Re: Post Mortem

metsmarathon wrote: Swing for fences bad. Swinging for hits good. It's not that simple really. Over the course of a full season the Royals scored more runs than the Mets, but not by a big margin (724 vs 683 - or basically 1/4 R/G) and did so in a league that always scores more often due to the DH. They also had to deal with far fewer injuries - every starter on their post-season lineup (which was the same every single night through all three series) was the same as their opening day lineup with the exception of Zobrist at 2B. Only Gordon in LF and Rios in RF missed any time during the season and both for only short stretches. Every one of their starting eight started over 100 games and six of the eight over 140. And of course there's the whole Mets 1st half/2nd half thing. After August 1st the Mets out-scored KC 318 to 284 As I said in another thread, there's definitely room for a conversation about whether this KC model of aggressive swinging yet low-K's/low-walks is an undervalued skill-set, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that it is and I think it works in their case only with help from their home park and because those players also run well for the most part and play excellent defense.

El Segundo Escupidor Nov 02 2015 12:12 AM Re: Post Mortem

Abuse your closer in the early rounds of the playoffs, pay the price later.

metsmarathon Nov 02 2015 12:14 AM Re: Post Mortem

Frayed Knot wrote: metsmarathon wrote: Swing for fences bad. Swinging for hits good. It's not that simple really. No. It's not. But I think that as a strategy against unhittable opposition pitching, like kc's bullpen, it's the one to go to. Especially for all of our damned hitters that were ice cold. Earlier this series, Duda was hitting well, and against the shift. Today, he was trying to end the game each time out. Except when he got the rib sac fly. In extras... Sheesh. Everybody trying to end it in one go.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 12:30 AM Re: Post Mortem

El Segundo Escupidor wrote: Abuse your closer in the early rounds of the playoffs, pay the price later. Much as I could argue with Terry's bullpen usage, I don't think this particular choice is what did the team in. I mean, wasn't Familia pitching well to the last? Sunk to blown-save purgatory, sure, but mostly by dinks and doinks and errors and being brought into emergencies not of his making. Familia's main disgrace, the Game One homer, wasn't on Terry at all, at least not in that way. It was just a poorly executed pitch that was attempted while trying a trick play — a quick pitch. That he resorted to that suggested to me his confidence wasn't where it should have been — in his stuff — and so he put his faith in knavery instead. And perhaps that lack of confidence can be placed in part on Collins. I totally believe this team was capable of winning. Just not capable, so much, of dominating. That's for next year.

Fman99 Nov 02 2015 05:13 AM Re: Post Mortem

I thought, also, when the Mets had pounded the Cubs and the KC/Toronto series was still going on, that the Royals were a far worse match up for us, because the Jays reminded me of the Cubs - a power team swinging from their heels, that you could just pump fastballs right by them. The Royals were going to be a steal bases, first-to-third type team, and nickel and dime us to death. And I was right. I didn't think they'd foul off 500 good pitches per game, but it's an extension of that. It was an awesome run. I just wish they had been able to shut the door better this last week.

bmfc1 Nov 02 2015 05:29 AM Re: Post Mortem

I wonder what the six day layoff did to Murphy. All of those interviews, the SI cover--maybe it was simply him cooling off from the incredible hot streak but the contrast between the NLDS/NCLS and the Series was incredible.

Rotblatt Nov 02 2015 05:39 AM Re: Post Mortem

As I said in another thread, there's definitely room for a conversation about whether this KC model of aggressive swinging yet low-K's/low-walks is an undervalued skill-set, but I don't think it's a slam dunk that it is and I think it works in their case only with help from their home park and because those players also run well for the most part and play excellent defense. I think their particular MO was our particular kryptonite, because our catcher can't catch runners, we have a weak middle infield defense, and it helps minimize our one true strength: deep, excellent starting pitching. In general, I think we had the tools to beat the Royals, we just needed one of: better consistency in the late innings, better hitting from the heart of our order, or a few more breaks going our way. No doubt, the Royals were good, but we could have beaten them. At any rate, it was an amazing second half to the season, and a better post-season run than I expected. I'm excited for next year.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 02 2015 05:58 AM Re: Post Mortem

We had a tremendous edge in starting pitching, and stating pitching depth, but never realized it because we didn't hit or field adequately.

dgwphotography Nov 02 2015 06:04 AM Re: Post Mortem

For me, the postmortem is that I'm looking at the off-season with optimism for the first time in a long time

bmfc1 Nov 02 2015 06:12 AM Re: Post Mortem

Agreed dgwphotography. I've already checked to see if the 2016 Spring Training schedule is available (it is not).

cooby classic Nov 02 2015 06:52 AM Re: Post Mortem

My son just texted to send his condolences (Indians fan, not Mets) and said he's been having flashbacks to Franco and Benitez.

cooby classic Nov 02 2015 06:59 AM Re: Post Mortem

All in all with the Royals' small ball and the Mets' cold bats, it was not an exciting World Series

soupcan Nov 02 2015 07:02 AM Re: Post Mortem

Defense, defense, defense. THAT was the story of this Series for me. They make the plays they should have made, they win the whole thing last night. I would really like to think that these Mets are beginning a very successful 5 year roll.

Chad Ochoseis Nov 02 2015 07:03 AM Re: Post Mortem

I thought Familia was more than good enough. The three BS's were mostly, well, BS. Other than the Game 1 HR to Gordon, he was done in by bad defense and the fact that a team that can get bat on ball is going to be good at scoring with a runner on second and no outs. I'm glad it's going to be five months before I hear anyone say "the Royals put the ball in play" again. This team could go on a run the next few years. Should go on a run. Just needs some tinkering. This is a good time to be a lifelong Mets fan. Yes, definitely. And I think a lot of people became lifelong Mets fans in the past couple of weeks.

Frayed Knot Nov 02 2015 07:14 AM Re: Post Mortem

So if we sweep next season's opening series do we get to claim a split of the eight-game series and half of a WS crown?

batmagadanleadoff Nov 02 2015 07:16 AM Re: Post Mortem

cooby wrote: My son just texted to send his condolences (Indians fan, not Mets) and said he's been having flashbacks to Franco and Benitez. Now I know why you like Chief Wahoo. [fimg=433]http://beltmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Screen-Shot-2014-06-19-at-5.25.24-PM-640x767.png[/fimg]

cooby classic Nov 02 2015 07:19 AM Re: Post Mortem

Yep :)

MFS62 Nov 02 2015 07:27 AM Re: Post Mortem

Every baseball fan wishes their team played with the focus and intensity of the Royals. They do all the little things, as well as the big things, to beat you, and they don't beat themselves. Congrats to them. They're damn good. Later

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 07:28 AM Re: Post Mortem

Whether it's in the official narrative (and I suspect it's going to be) or just in the narrative in Terry's head, is that Terry twice backed down before the hubris of one of his athletes, and the team paid badly. That's gonna be tough to live with. If pride doesn't always come before a fall, it certainly did last night.

Chad Ochoseis Nov 02 2015 07:34 AM Re: Post Mortem

I sure hope not, at least regarding Harvey. Leaving him in was the right move (or non-move). He didn't appear to be tiring, even after the walk. Sometimes the right move doesn't work.

Lefty Specialist Nov 02 2015 07:56 AM Re: Post Mortem

Like everyone else, I'm energized that they got this far. Those 109 days or so until Spring Training are going to be interminable. The Royals showed us what needs to be done. Do the basics well and be opportunistic. KC exposed every flaw in this team. Tip of the cap to them and I hope Sandy was taking notes. Next year, with Thor and Matz getting another season under their belt, and Wheeler coming back, the starting pitching will be incredible. But as we saw this week, that's not enough and that's where Sandy is going to have to earn his paycheck this winter. No one's going to take the Mets lightly next year. And I'd expect the Nats to re-load and be on a mission. So while we may be coming into a golden era, they can't just coast. Flaws need to be addressed if we want to have fun again in 2016.

m.e.t.b.o.t. Nov 02 2015 08:20 AM Re: Post Mortem

in game 1 of the earth baseball championship games, the new york metropolitans had a 90.1% probability of winning. in game 4 of the earth baseball championship games, the new york metropolitans had an 84.6% probability of winning. in game 5 of the earth baseball championship games, the new york metropolitans had a 95.6% probability of winning. the cumulative probability of losing all three of those games is 0.07%. m.e.t.b.o.t. is curious, yet unwilling to perform the necessary research, if any other team which failed to be victorious in the earth baseball championship games had such a high probability of winning. it took a long time last night for m.e.t.b.o.t. to finally unwind after the game. the plastic gears in old video cassette recorders are not manufactured to withstand so such high levels of stress.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 08:26 AM Re: Post Mortem

Chad Ochoseis wrote: I sure hope not, at least regarding Harvey. Leaving him in was the right move (or non-move). He didn't appear to be tiring, even after the walk. Sometimes the right move doesn't work. It's easy enough to say, "It's your ball, but you get one baserunner, and then I'm coming to get you." If he does that, Harvey feels he got his chance, that his fate was left in his own hands, and he gets to walk off to the thundering cheers of a still largely positive crowd. Familia enters in that environment with his fate still in his own hands, not with the somebody else's tying-run baserunner on second and no outs, and the energy leaking out of the crowd. Beyond whether it's the right move or not, Terry's got to live with it being the move he allowed himself to be talked into by the athlete.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 02 2015 08:51 AM Re: Post Mortem

I'm not one to place a whole lot of blame on Terry -- the guys gotta execute, and they didn't -- but I will say his moves may have contributed to what looked to be a crisis of confidence infecting the club for the whole series. I suspect at some level it all boiled down to whether our cleanup hitter was in any shape to play any of the games. Just a theory of mine, but his indifferent play in this series, perhaps related to his mysterious shoulder injury, was an open secret that undermined the whole club.

dgwphotography Nov 02 2015 08:55 AM Re: Post Mortem

I felt keeping Harvey in even after the walk was the right move. I said this at the time that Warthen should have come out after the walk to settle Harvey down, because he just looked too hopped up.

TransMonk Nov 02 2015 08:57 AM Re: Post Mortem

Defense and bullpen...weaknesses that KC exploited. Lots to be proud of if you're a Mets fan, though. It should be an offseason full of hope.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2015 08:57 AM Re: Post Mortem

I was okay with Harvey taking the mound in the ninth. I assumed the deal was, okay Matt, go get them, but as soon as there's a baserunner we're going to Familia. I was surprised that Harvey stayed in to pitch to Hosmer.

Ceetar Nov 02 2015 09:05 AM Re: Post Mortem

There was a lot that went wrong all around, but to me the real factor is that the Royals starting pitching stepped up and overperformed, and the Mets didn't have anyone raise their game to match. There are dozens of things you could nitpick with, but it's impossible to say that _that_ would've done it, or that even just one of them would've. Bottom line is the Royals played better over 5 games than the Mets. They got the breaks, make the plays, threw the pitches, and made the errors and mistakes in less critical moments.

Frayed Knot Nov 02 2015 09:09 AM Re: Post Mortem

I alluded to this in one of the IGTs and now I've just gone back and checked the box scores. There were ten different times over the five games where the Royals hit grounders/bouncers to NYM infielders in potential DP situations [runner on 1st, 1st & 2nd, or 1st & 3rd <2 outs] In those plays, not only did the Mets turn a GiDP in just two of them but only two others even resulted in a force out meaning it wound up with the effect of moving the runner(s) up a base, some of which helped set up runs. In all, a potential of 20 outs via 10 grounders in DP situations resulted in a total of 10 outs. So was this a case of good Royals, bad Mets, or just bad luck? Probably some of each. 1) Good Royals -- A majority of those grounders were towards the RF side of the diamond where DPs are usually tougher to turn -- including four where Duda had no play but to take the unassisted out at 1st resulting in one or more runners moving up a base. It's a smallish sample but it does imply some sort of intent on the part of KC hitters (and the bat skill to pull it off) to hit behind runners and get the side benefit of the unofficial sacrifice even if the ball doesn't find a hole. 2) Bad Mets -- Three of these plays went to Murphy and we all know he wound up completely botching two of them (in the other he actually made a smart tag-and-throw DP). And there was one other to Duda where the attempted 3-6-3 wasn't completed because he and Syndergaard got in each other's way although that one was going to be a tough turn even if played well. 3) Bad Luck -- Even if you grant the KC batters points for smartly hitting behind runners, most of what came off their bats in those instances were simply hit too shitty to allow a DP to even contemplated. Slow choppers, spinning side-winders, and topped squibs have to be seen more as shit luck than intentional strategy.

Centerfield Nov 02 2015 09:12 AM Re: Post Mortem

I imagine in a couple of days I will be able to say something somewhat intelligent about the series, the season, etc. But for now, I am way too fucking pissed off to be taken seriously. I will be ranting and raving. Calling for Terry's head. Cursing a lot. If I were you guys, I'd just ignore me for a couple of days until I get it out of my system.

Lefty Specialist Nov 02 2015 09:12 AM Re: Post Mortem

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I was okay with Harvey taking the mound in the ninth. I assumed the deal was, okay Matt, go get them, but as soon as there's a baserunner we're going to Familia. I was surprised that Harvey stayed in to pitch to Hosmer. That's the way I felt. You're out there with a short leash, and after the walk you're done. But they still didn't execute when they had to, and that's not on Terry. A good throw from Duda and you're back to KC for game 6. Oh well, woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Nymr83 Nov 02 2015 09:20 AM Re: Post Mortem

Lefty Specialist wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I was okay with Harvey taking the mound in the ninth. I assumed the deal was, okay Matt, go get them, but as soon as there's a baserunner we're going to Familia. I was surprised that Harvey stayed in to pitch to Hosmer. That's the way I felt. You're out there with a short leash, and after the walk you're done. I was suprised as well, and not just because it was a baserunner but a WALK. I feel like a walk screams "take the guy out" in close & late situatioms far more than a base hit does.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 09:22 AM Re: Post Mortem

We're OK with not walking Perez to set up the double play with Gordon, right?

Mets Willets Point Nov 02 2015 09:54 AM Re: Post Mortem

Edgy MD wrote: Whether it's in the official narrative (and I suspect it's going to be) or just in the narrative in Terry's head, is that Terry twice backed down before the hubris of one of his athletes, and the team paid badly. That's gonna be tough to live with. If pride doesn't always come before a fall, it certainly did last night. I think those were both no-win calls since if he'd pulled Cespedes or Harvey there would still be a ton of criticism.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 09:58 AM Re: Post Mortem

No doubt. It's certainly no win if he goes the other way and things still go south. The problem to me is that he seemingly went against his own sensibilities, right or wrong, and deferred to the wishes of the player assuring him he was up to the task. No leader wants to allow himself to do that. And no leader wants to do that and have it backfire. As it is, Terry seemingly still kicks himself for letting Santana finish the no-hitter.

Mets Willets Point Nov 02 2015 10:06 AM Re: Post Mortem

I chose to admire the players for wanting to stay in the game and making their case. Especially in this time and age when there are Mets fans who have referred to those very same players as "soft."

Centerfield Nov 02 2015 10:06 AM Re: Post Mortem

This is one of those points where I probably can't be trusted to speak rationally, but I thought this was badly mismanaged by Terry. Starting with Friday night: 1. Game 3: No way do you pitch Familia in that game. The philosophy of "Let's get his confidence back" should be out the window in Game 3 of the World Series. If you have a finite number of bullets in Familia's arm, it is foolish to use them there. You also give the opposition more looks at your closer. Bad bad all around. 2. Game 4: No way do you pull Bartolo after 1 batter. He dominated the Royals in Game 1 until Wright's error. You let him be the bridge to Familia. And Familia would be better rested not having pitched in Game 3. 3. Game 5: Pull Harvey after the walk. Come on man. Leadoff walk? Bad bad sign. I still can't believe we lost games 4 and 5. Fuck it all. It's coming back again.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2015 10:08 AM Re: Post Mortem

I agree 100 per cent with all three points. And that's what I was thinking as the events unfolded, not just with hindsight. While I rationally know that the next guy would likely be just as frustrating, I hope Terry doesn't come back. Nice guy, and I'm happy he got to manage in the postseason, but I hope they meet with him and he decides to retire as a National League Champion. (He can have a last hurrah at the All-Star Game next summer.) And if he doesn't want to do that, they can fire him.

bmfc1 Nov 02 2015 11:44 AM Re: Post Mortem

Brian Kenny is a smart guy and a Mets fan. He says that Terry made the wrong decision: http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/15 ... rld-series

Frayed Knot Nov 02 2015 12:43 PM Re: Post Mortem

Kenny is also an advocate of essentially doing away with the traditional model of starting pitchers entirely and patching yourself through a game via shorter spurts from several hurlers. That fact doesn't negate his argument but you do have to realize where he's coming from and that if Harvey had blown up in the 8th inning he could probably make a case that Terry would have been better pulling at the end of 7. What he's saying here is that fatigue/too many pitches makes even your best pitcher no longer your best pitcher so that a replacement is likely to be better going forward. The counter to that is that you'd be taking out a guy who you KNOW is good that night (and right up to that moment) in exchange for one who you hope will be good that night. With either method you're almost certain to run up against diminished returns at some point and I'm not sure that Kenny's odds based on what is usually small sample stuff, such as stats on pitches after #100, are all that better than the odds that one or more of the replacements not having it that night.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 01:37 PM Re: Post Mortem

When faced with either one move (pulling Harvey) or the other (riding Harvey), it seems most of us see the middle ground as the most viable: of riding Harvey until the leadoff batter gets on, and then pulling him. Sometimes it's better to be wise than smart. (I'm looking at you, Brian Kenney. Indefensible? Go back to your tanning salon.) And I'll repeat that it was foolish for the over-pumped Harvey to run out to the mound. Stay calm and stay in your zone, man.

Centerfield Nov 02 2015 01:52 PM Re: Post Mortem

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I agree 100 per cent with all three points. And that's what I was thinking as the events unfolded, not just with hindsight. While I rationally know that the next guy would likely be just as frustrating, I hope Terry doesn't come back. Nice guy, and I'm happy he got to manage in the postseason, but I hope they meet with him and he decides to retire as a National League Champion. (He can have a last hurrah at the All-Star Game next summer.) And if he doesn't want to do that, they can fire him. Couple this with his failure to get out and argue the hell out of that Utley play in Game 2, and his decision to pull Noah in Game 5 after just 1 inning. The Game 5 move worked out, but I disagree vehemently with the move nonetheless. These are all judgment calls, I realize, but if that is Terry's judgment, it gives me very little confidence going into next October, should they be lucky enough to get there.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 02:05 PM Re: Post Mortem

FWIW, there's no need to be firing anybody. Terry's contract expires at the end of this season. He has a 2016 option, but letting him go is as easy as willing it.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2015 02:21 PM Re: Post Mortem

Edgy MD wrote: FWIW, there's no need to be firing anybody. Terry's contract expires at the end of this season. He has a 2016 option, but letting him go is as easy as willing it. That's true. But it will be spun as a firing anyway.

cooby classic Nov 02 2015 02:42 PM Re: Post Mortem

When faced with either one move (pulling Harvey) or the other (riding Harvey), it seems most of us see the middle ground as the most viable: of riding Harvey until the leadoff batter gets on, and then pulling him. Sometimes it's better to be wise than smart. (I'm looking at you, Brian Kenney. Indefensible? Go back to your tanning salon.) And I'll repeat that it was foolish for the over-pumped Harvey to run out to the mound. Stay calm and stay in your zone, man. Maybe, but it sure looked cool

Mets Willets Point Nov 02 2015 04:14 PM Re: Post Mortem

If it were a complete game shutout, that would already be legendary. But now it's there for finger pointing.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2015 04:41 PM Re: Post Mortem

I certainly noted it at the time.