Master Index of Archived Threads


2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Garret Anderson

0 votes

Brad Ausmus

0 votes

Jeff Bagwell

24 votes

Barry Bonds

17 votes

Luis Castillo

0 votes

Roger Clemens

9 votes

David Eckstein

0 votes

Jim Edmonds

0 votes

Nomar Garciaparra

1 votes

Troy Glaus

0 votes

Ken Griffey Jr

31 votes

Mark Grudzielanek

0 votes

Mike Hampton

0 votes

Trevor Hoffman

4 votes

Jason Kendall

0 votes

Jeff Kent

5 votes

Mike Lowell

0 votes

Edgar Martinez

14 votes

Fred McGriff

3 votes

Mark McGwire

9 votes

Mike Mussina

4 votes

Mike Piazza

32 votes

Tim Raines

22 votes

Curt Schilling

11 votes

Gary Sheffield

3 votes

Lee Smith

5 votes

Sammy Sosa

4 votes

Mike Sweeney

0 votes

Alan Trammell

17 votes

Billy Wagner

0 votes

Larry Walker

10 votes

Randy Winn

0 votes

seawolf17 Nov 09 2015 05:13 PM

VOTE NOW. Up to ten, obvs. http://baseballhall.org/hof/2016-bbwaa-ballot

dgwphotography Nov 09 2015 05:17 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Bagwell, Griffey, Piazza, Raines.

cooby classic Nov 09 2015 05:29 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Crap. My votes didn't register. Then when I tried again I only picked one guy.

Edgy MD Nov 09 2015 05:31 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

It's going to occur to me in about five seconds, but right now, I'm all, "WtF is Randy Winn?"

d'Kong76 Nov 09 2015 05:46 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

dgwphotography wrote: Bagwell, Griffey, Piazza, Raines. I took the first three, have to think on Raines... but now see voting is not editable/changeable on this poll.

Ceetar Nov 09 2015 05:59 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

"You have tried to vote for too many options."

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 09 2015 06:13 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I voted for 9 guys I think deserve it without looking anything up. I left off Clemens even though I know he belongs and Mussina too, although I'm on the fence with that guy. For some reason I never vote for Bagwell, and didn't again. Bonds Griffey Kent* Martinez Piazza Raines Schilling Trammel* Walker* *- need to look these guys up

bmfc1 Nov 09 2015 06:43 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

How are the schools in Cooperstown, NY? I'm asking for Mike Hampton.

seawolf17 Nov 09 2015 07:17 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Fixed it so you can fix your votes if need be.

d'Kong76 Nov 09 2015 07:26 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Thanks, seawolf. Fwiw, James ranks Bagwell #4 of 100 in his HBAbstract.. No descriptive explanation, he merely wrote, "Pass." He also lists Mattingly as #12 so not so sure he's not schmoakindaweed. His explanation, "100 ballplayer, 0% bullshit."

Nymr83 Nov 09 2015 07:30 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

This is the first year in awhile without a bunch of strong NEW candidates, which is good because there are still a shitload of good holdovers. Amongst the new guys: YES to Griffey Wagner and Hoffman can just wait, there are too many players who are more deserving, I can't waste a ballot spot on a reliever. My ten: Bagwell, Bonds, Griffey, Kent, McGwire, Piazza, Raines, Schilling, Sosa, Trammell on the fence: Edmonds, Edgar Martinez, Mussina, Clemens. fuck Clemens.

cooby classic Nov 09 2015 07:30 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Thank you seawolf!

Nymr83 Nov 09 2015 07:32 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I assume the number of ballots = the number of Piazza votes and nobody here has turned traitor?

cooby classic Nov 09 2015 07:33 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Now that I could revote, I voted for him :D

d'Kong76 Nov 09 2015 07:52 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I added a vote for Raines, the peer pressure was too much to withstand.

Vic Sage Nov 09 2015 08:02 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Because of the backlog and the steroids issue, I've now got 16 guys on my ballot (17, if i include Pete Rose). Here are the top 10: *Bonds *Clemens Griffey --- Bagwell Piazza Walker E.Martinez --- Schilling Trammell Raines *If i exclude the 4 steroid boys, then i would add Mussina and Kent. borderline/yes(eventually, maybe): Mussina Kent *McGwire *Sosa Hoffman Sheffield Borderline/no: McGriff Wagner L.Smith worth a mention: Garciaparra Edmonds one and done: Anderson Ausmus Castillo Eckstein Glaus Grudzelanek Hampton Kendall Sweeney Winn When i looked at the numbers (WAR, JAWS, OPS+, HoFm, HoFs), i was surprised by the viability of the candidacies of both Mussina and Sheffield. I just couldn't get myself to vote for Sheff. And i still don't know how to evaluate closers. None of these guys (Hoffman, Wagner, L.Smith) have the numbers that Gossage had, but they're comparable (or better) than Sutter and Fingers, so i'm open to suggestion.

Vic Sage Nov 09 2015 08:13 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

and the backlog will continue into 2017, with the addition of the 3 Caballeros: Vladdy, Manny, and I-Rod

Lefty Specialist Nov 09 2015 08:48 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

dgwphotography wrote: Bagwell, Griffey, Piazza, Raines. This. Raines was one of the best players of his era and has kind of gotten lost over the years.

Rockin' Doc Nov 10 2015 12:17 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Griffey, Jr., Piazza, Bagwell, and Raines. I could go either way on Hoffman. I knew he had held the career saves record until Rivera passed him, but his peripherals (WHIP, SO/9, SO/BB, ERA+, & save %) are really impressive.

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 10 2015 03:28 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Piazza Griffey Raines Trammell Bagwell Hoffman Smith Martinez Schilling

MFS62 Nov 10 2015 04:18 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Lefty Specialist wrote: dgwphotography wrote: Bagwell, Griffey, Piazza, Raines. This. Raines was one of the best players of his era and has kind of gotten lost over the years. And that's why I didn't vote for him. He got lost on me. While he was active, if somebody had asked me to name the 5 or so best players in the game, I don't think he I would have named him. He sort of slipped under my radar. So, I couldn't vote for him. Sorry, Tim. If you were that good, you wouldn't need my vote to get in. My votes went to Griffey, Bagwell, Piazza, Trammell, Kent, Smith, Walker and Hoffmann. Later

Edgy MD Nov 10 2015 05:03 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Assuming that the Mike vote is 100%, that gives us a Crane Class of Piazza, Griffey, Bagwell, and Raines (coming in with exactly 75% percent). Maybe I should look under the hood and see if we can have polls report the number of ballots cast, and report each ballot item in terms of votes/ballots, rather than votes/total votes, which isn't very useful.

seawolf17 Nov 10 2015 03:08 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

We could make an eleventh "EVERYONE SELECT THIS" option to give a more guaranteed number.

Nymr83 Nov 10 2015 04:20 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

who didn't vote for Griffey?

Edgy MD Nov 10 2015 04:22 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

We could make an eleventh "EVERYONE SELECT THIS" option to give a more guaranteed number. I actually thought of that. But then I become even more of a nanny, going, "Will everyone PLEASE remember to add the 'Everyone Select This' option to your polls? And will all voters PLEASE remember to select it? Else our data is worthless and it's all just an exercise in pushing buttons. Which I guess it is anyhow but still." I'm annoying myself just thinking about it. I went under the hood. No luck. Got good and greasy though. who didn't vote for Griffey? Welcome to the pool, Murray Chass!

Gwreck Nov 10 2015 05:35 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Why does everyone assume Ken Griffey Jr. didn't do steroids? I wouldn't say I'm surprised, but I am always somewhat confused by voters in these polls who have no problem with Griffey or Piazza but won't vote for Bonds or Clemens.

d'Kong76 Nov 10 2015 05:54 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I think people also view Bonds and Clemens as criminals (with a grain of salt), some of the others no so much.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 10 2015 05:58 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire) brought a level of embarrassment to the game that Griffey and Piazza did not. I know I'm in a minority here, but I think Shame negates Fame.

dgwphotography Nov 10 2015 06:09 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire) brought a level of embarrassment to the game that Griffey and Piazza did not. I know I'm in a minority here, but I think Shame negates Fame. Yep, and McGwire minus the juice is nothing more than a glorified Dave Kingman...

Ceetar Nov 10 2015 06:13 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Bonds and Clemens (and McGwire) brought a level of embarrassment to the game that Griffey and Piazza did not. I know I'm in a minority here, but I think Shame negates Fame. shame is of course, subjective. I hate the idea that they're somehow worse because they dared to get caught. Like it's somehow okay if you're GOOD at taking steroids, but if you pick the wrong trainer, shame on you!

d'Kong76 Nov 10 2015 06:17 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Ceetar wrote: I hate the idea that they're somehow worse because they dared to get caught. Like it's somehow okay if you're GOOD at taking steroids, but if you pick the wrong trainer, shame on you! I don't know anyone who thinks this. At least I think I don't. Dared? GOOD? I don't get it.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 10 2015 06:20 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Ceetar wrote: shame is of course, subjective. As is fame. The whole thing is subjective.

Ceetar Nov 10 2015 06:29 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceetar wrote: I hate the idea that they're somehow worse because they dared to get caught. Like it's somehow okay if you're GOOD at taking steroids, but if you pick the wrong trainer, shame on you! I don't know anyone who thinks this. At least I think I don't. Dared? GOOD? I don't get it. Plenty of people point to "oh, but he failed a test/admitted it/etc" as reasoning. They're not out and out saying "don't get caught" but it's what they're implying by being okay with voting for some 'steroid era' guys and not others. Ceetar wrote: shame is of course, subjective. As is fame. The whole thing is subjective. Indeed. Mike Piazza IS a Hall of Famer in my view of baseball. I don't need a subjective group of writers to say so. Hall of Fame, to me, means the cream of the crop of baseball history. I'm over it. Personally, I think this poll should be edited to remove the guys we voted for successfully last year. The majority of Poolers have Mike in the hall, therefore he's in.

Gwreck Nov 10 2015 06:42 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

dgwphotography wrote: Yep, and McGwire minus the juice is nothing more than a glorified Dave Kingman... Why are you so sure that Kingman didn't use "the juice" too? If you want to discount the 140 extra homers that McGwire had over Kingman because of steriods, fine. McGwire had an on-base percentage a hundred points higher than Kingman for his career. (Or is that "the Juice" too?) Sammy Sosa never tested positive (like Palmeiro). He never admitted using steriods (as did McGwire). He never was criminally prosecuted (Bonds, Clemens). What's everybody's problem with him? The corked bat?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 10 2015 08:10 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Bagwell Bonds Clemens Griffey Martinez Mussina Piazza Raines Schilling Trammell BORDERLINE Edmonds Hoffman Kent McGriff McGwire Sosa Wagner Walker

Gwreck Nov 10 2015 08:23 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Bagwell Bonds Clemens Griffey Martinez Mussina Piazza Raines Schilling Trammell BORDERLINE Edmonds Hoffman Kent McGriff McGwire Sosa Wagner Walker McGwire got my tenth vote, with Mussina dropped into the "would vote for if I had 11 spots." Otherwise, I think this is a perfect ballot.

Vic Sage Nov 10 2015 08:29 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Sammy Sosa never tested positive (like Palmeiro). He never admitted using steriods (as did McGwire). He never was criminally prosecuted (Bonds, Clemens). What's everybody's problem with him? The corked bat? Sosa DID test positive, one of 104 players who tested positive during the "anonymous" testing survey in 2003 that led to the new drug policy. Sosa and A-Rod's names were leaked. Sosa worked out with trainer Angel Presinal from 2001 to 2003 in the Dominican Republic. Presinal, who also worked with Alex Rodriguez and Juan Gonzalez, has been banned by Major League Baseball from its ballparks and clubhouses. From 1993-97, Sosa emerged as an excellent major league hitter for the Cubs, after a few years with Texas and the White Sox. Then, he showed up in 98 with an new physique and started hitting like Bonds for 5 years. Then, after drug testing he faded quickly away. He is in the category of Bonds, McGwire, Tejada, Palmiero, A-Rod, Manny, Petitte, Braun and Juan Gonzalez, of great players who got caught, not players like Bagwell and Piazza, about whom there are only rumors and innuendo. If you're of the type to make those distinctions, there is evidence to do so. Me, i vote them all in, and let heaven sort them out. I'd vote for Rose too. My problem with Sosa is more the "no comprendo" testimony to congress, which damned McGwire, Palmiero and Clemens, too. Even so, i would vote for Sammy as well as 15 other guys on the outside looking in.

Gwreck Nov 10 2015 08:42 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Vic Sage wrote: Sosa DID test positive, one of 104 players who tested positive during the "anonymous" testing survey in 2003 that led to the new drug policy. Sosa and A-Rod's names were leaked. For what it's worth, I personally think it's likely that Sosa used PEDs. But I also know that a "leak" of anonymous survey testing is nowhere close to any reliable evidentiary standard. I generally waver between finding this topic maddening and depressing. The arbitrary line-drawing of who "cheated," or who brought "shame" to baseball are a bunch of nonsense. Just put the best players in.

Centerfield Nov 10 2015 08:51 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Exactly. Either there was official testing, or there wasn't. For these players, there was no testing. So it's patently unfair to blacklist some, but not others. Allowing all voters to come up with their on standards of guilt add to make this process a complete mess. The HoF needs a complete reboot. The whole process is a farce. Now that testing is in place, the Hall can make a ruling (if they want) that any player who tests positive will automatically be denied entry. Or they can elect not to. It's up to them. Once a player is eligible, the voters should vote based upon the player's performance. And only the player's performance. If you add anything else, this already subjective standard becomes too arbitrary and random. Anyone not adhering to these standards should lose their vote. So, for if instance, if you fail to vote for Rickey Henderson because you think he's a Hall of Famer, but not a "first ballot guy". Or if you think Rickey belongs but you don't want anyone to beat Seaver's %, then you are too stupid to vote and should be replaced.

Frayed Knot Nov 10 2015 08:53 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Gwreck wrote: Why does everyone assume Ken Griffey Jr. didn't do steroids? . Because it's easier for many folks to simply divide this topic into guilty vs not witout distinctions for 'maybe' or for shades of gray within either side.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 10 2015 09:05 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Centerfield wrote: Once a player is eligible, the voters should vote based upon the player's performance. And only the player's performance. If you add anything else, this already subjective standard becomes too arbitrary and random. But the player's character is already part of the official criteria: 5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. If it was just about the numbers, then yes, Bonds and Clemens would definitely go in. But I can't fault voters who choose not to ignore "integrity, sportsmanship, character". In fact, I agree with them.

d'Kong76 Nov 10 2015 09:13 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I wonder if the writers just voted in all the suspect superstars once and for all if there would be a boycott of members of the HOF of the induction ceremonies. This gets tiresome year after year and it's only going to get worse. Vote 'em all in, it was an era and it was what it was, and MLB make a new rule that if you get caught 'roidin' up you are automatically ineligible for induction due to cheating. Frankly, I would watch an induction ceremony of Bonds, Clemens and a few others and laugh at the smirks on their collective faces.

cooby classic Nov 10 2015 09:38 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Maybe Sammy Sosa ate lots of ice cream that winter and the weight all landed in his arms.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 10 2015 09:58 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Someone should have felt his arms to see if they were chilly.

Centerfield Nov 10 2015 10:48 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Once a player is eligible, the voters should vote based upon the player's performance. And only the player's performance. If you add anything else, this already subjective standard becomes too arbitrary and random. But the player's character is already part of the official criteria: 5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played. If it was just about the numbers, then yes, Bonds and Clemens would definitely go in. But I can't fault voters who choose not to ignore "integrity, sportsmanship, character". In fact, I agree with them. I understand it's there now. And that is what writers are using to justify their decisions. As part of my reboot, I would remove it and just base it on performance. The "character and integrity" standard sounds great in theory. And I understand the HoF wanting to give flexibility for voters to keep complete dickheads from gaining entry. But that criteria lends itself to abuse, such as those writers who decline to vote for someone merely on suspicion of steroids. The writers who won't vote for Piazza because they have an unsubstantiated suspicion that he is of low moral character. Judging the numbers of one individual against another's is already fairly subjective. Once you throw in the nice guy standard and allow writers to become the judge of crimes, real or imagined, the standard deteriorates and the guidelines become too random. In my opinion anyway.

Centerfield Nov 10 2015 10:52 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

At the end of the day, baseball brought this mess upon itself by looking the other way as steroids became rampant in the sport. It destroyed hallowed numbers like 61, 714 and 755. When I was growing up, everyone knew 755, 714, 660. What are the home run records now? Does anyone even know without looking? And by the same token, they fucked up the Hall of Fame as well.

Nymr83 Nov 10 2015 10:59 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Frayed Knot wrote: Why does everyone assume Ken Griffey Jr. didn't do steroids? Why should there be any presumption of guilt? Nobody has ever specifically accused Griffey that I know of. There have never been criminal proceedings or failed drug tests (official or leaked) that we know of. its actually pretty absurd to even have to "defend" him (or Piazza or Bagwell)

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 11 2015 01:47 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Confused by the lack of love for Hoffman. His 601 career saves is second on the all-time list, and he's about 125 ahead of the No. 3 guy. Seven-time All-Star. If this guy's not in the hall, then it seems like we are devaluing closers.

Ceetar Nov 11 2015 02:03 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Centerfield wrote: At the end of the day, baseball brought this mess upon itself by looking the other way as steroids became rampant in the sport. It destroyed hallowed numbers like 61, 714 and 755. When I was growing up, everyone knew 755, 714, 660. What are the home run records now? Does anyone even know without looking? And by the same token, they fucked up the Hall of Fame as well. 762 and 73. without looking, yes. and in 20 years, so will EVERYONE. You had decades to memorize those other numbers. Bonds was the greatest baseball player ever. We got to watch him. He's a Hall of Famer.

Frayed Knot Nov 11 2015 02:14 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Nymr83 wrote: Why does everyone assume Ken Griffey Jr. didn't do steroids? Why should there be any presumption of guilt? Nobody has ever specifically accused Griffey that I know of. There have never been criminal proceedings or failed drug tests (official or leaked) that we know of. its actually pretty absurd to even have to "defend" him (or Piazza or Bagwell) Not that there should be a presumption of guilt, but not an automatic assumption of innocence either. And that's pretty much been the history of the post-steroid era*: the tendency to think of those who were caught as lepers while guys who haven't are looked to as virtues of sport - when in fact the difference may only be that one name was leaked while the other never was; or that one got caught up in the very first sample testing so is thought of as dirty forever while another could have used more or for longer but simply wasn't snagged in that original trial. * well, not post-steroids but the post-steroid reveal era

d'Kong76 Nov 11 2015 02:31 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Ceetar wrote: Bonds was the greatest baseball player ever. I'm done with HoF Voting thread.

Nymr83 Nov 11 2015 05:03 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Confused by the lack of love for Hoffman. His 601 career saves is second on the all-time list, and he's about 125 ahead of the No. 3 guy. Seven-time All-Star. If this guy's not in the hall, then it seems like we are devaluing closers. I don't place much value on closers relative to starters, I dont think any of them deserve even a sniff of consideration over the other guys on the ballot. Bonds was the greatest baseball player ever. I would go Ruth-Williams-Bonds, with maybe Mays ahead of Bonds too.

Ceetar Nov 11 2015 05:19 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Nymr83 wrote: I would go Ruth-Williams-Bonds, with maybe Mays ahead of Bonds too. Sure, that's fair. It's really hard to compare different eras with different equipment and fields and conditions and medicines objectively. Maybe impossibly. Bonds is up there though.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2015 03:37 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Surpised to find out that this is Trammell's last year on the ballot. I'm a long-time supporter. He's weird in that his hitting was either outstanding or not particularly good, from year to year, but overall, I find him pretty comparable to Barry Larkin.

Edgy MD Dec 31 2015 05:24 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

With approximately 27% of ballots counted, we're looking at at Bagwell, Griffey (100%!!), Piazza, and Raines. The noble cause of Alan Trammell going down in flames. Lasted a lot longer than Lou Whittaker (who may have had an even stronger case), anyhow.

dgwphotography Dec 31 2015 02:13 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Edgy MD wrote: With approximately 27% of ballots counted, we're looking at at Bagwell, Griffey (100%!!), Piazza, and Raines. This exactly matches my ballot in this poll. If Seaver's record is to be topped, I would rather it be topped by Griffey than Jeter.

Nymr83 Dec 31 2015 02:22 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

i want a writer to come out and say he didnt vote for Jeter because of the gift baskets.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 31 2015 02:23 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

It would be more entertaining if Jeter himself "came out."

Edgy MD Dec 31 2015 02:42 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

dgwphotography wrote: Edgy MD wrote: With approximately 27% of ballots counted, we're looking at at Bagwell, Griffey (100%!!), Piazza, and Raines. This exactly matches my ballot in this poll. If Seaver's record is to be topped, I would rather it be topped by Griffey than Jeter. I'm guessing it won't be topped this year. I mean, the ones who are stingiest with their ballots, or go all grumpy and turn in a blank ballot, are not typically the ones writing columns and publishing their ballots beforehand. Griffey, interestingly, kind of gets extra points for the monster stats he didn't put up—being an outstanding and exciting player with an engaging style in his twenties, and aging and breaking down in his thirties, reportedly falling asleep in the clubhouse at the end of his career. While this could count against him in another era, in this one, it's led to a consensus assumption that he played clean. Maybe he did.

Nymr83 Dec 31 2015 03:03 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

it sucked that he couldn't stay on the field more, he went from being potentially a top-5 player all-time in the first half of his career to finishing probably just inside the top 50 if you look at total careers and not just his amazing peak.

bmfc1 Dec 31 2015 09:53 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Heyman didn't vote for Piazza because he "looked the part". Idiot. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer/jon ... ot-clemens

Edgy MD Dec 31 2015 10:53 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I think these guys have learned that if you sew some infuriating nonsense into your HoF voting column, you'll get the most clicks you get all year.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 31 2015 10:58 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Appalling. 17. Mike Piazza. He should be considered an all-time great -- he's the greatest-hitting catcher ever and the value of having a catcher who's one of the league's best hitters is immense -- but he's had to wait a few years surely due to a strongly-held belief he participated in the steroid era. I understand there's no public evidence he did anything more than play in the steroid era and looked the part. However, since this isn't a court of law, the burden of proof is much lower and since it's only about who is honored, and not who is punished, I held out for now. He rose to just under 70 percent last year, but the elimination of much of the old guard will likely have the unintended consequence of pushing Piazza into the Hall. Early polling, while unscientific, suggests he will make it easily. I certainly understand that, too. Prediction: 81 percent. (elected) Jeter "participated" in the steroid era. I suspect that won't be mentioned.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 01 2016 01:29 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

N4n, Piazza did look the part. And I think his being less than forthcoming in his own book almost counts against him doubly.

Ceetar Jan 01 2016 07:06 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: N4n, Piazza did look the part. And I think his being less than forthcoming in his own book almost counts against him doubly. I wonder if writing the book was detrimental. I definitely saw a few people reason "Well, let's see what he says in the book first" for not voting for him the first time. But not giving juicy tidbits, it's almost like they think it proves there are juicy tidbits.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 01 2016 04:50 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

If he had offered tidbits, they'd have hanged him for the tidbits. Were I him, it would have been hard to resist trolling the living hell out of the Heymen on nearly every page. Like, ending every chapter with something like But the power STILL wouldn't develop. I talked to friends, coaches, my Dad.... heck, I prayed on it. And that's when, stigma be damned, I made the decision to use those resistance bands my aunt had bought me for my birthday, even though they were pink. PINK! Like, totally queer, right?

Nymr83 Jan 01 2016 05:04 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

If he had offered tidbits, they'd have hanged him for the tidbits. Were I him, it would have been hard to resist trolling the living hell out of the Heymen on nearly every page. Like, ending every chapter with something like But the power STILL wouldn't develop. I talked to friends, coaches, my Dad.... heck, I prayed on it. And that's when, stigma be damned, I made the decision to use those resistance bands my aunt had bought me for my birthday, even though they were pink. PINK! Like, totally queer, right? Next Chapter: the resistance bands didn't do the trick and the Home Runs still wouldn't come. I never liked the idea of putting artificial stuff in my body, but I finally bit the bullet and went to this shady pharmacy so I could take Flintstones Vitamins.

Edgy MD Jan 03 2016 04:23 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Heyman, by the way, is out at CBS Sports. Still trolling for MLBNetwork and WFAN.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2016 05:26 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

We're at 35% or so (158 votes), as per Ryan Thibodaux, and Bagwell and Raines (sadface), while still above the threshold in the sample, are fading into iffy-when-you-consider-the-crow-yet-to-be-counted territory (79.7, 77.8 respectively). Looks like it's time to book those bed-and-breakfast rooms, though, backwards-baseball-hat (100% yet) and bacne fans (86.7%). Citing newly-completed, historically-comprehensive looks at catcher defense, 538.com's Ben Lindbergh makes the case for Mike P's defensive prowess here. Cumulatively, Piazza is by far the least-valuable throwing catcher since 1950, trailing the second-worst, Todd Hundley, by more than 16 runs... But he also places in the 74th percentile as a pitch-framer, and the 89th percentile as a pitch-blocker. His arm was just as bad as the naysayers believed, but that weakness wasn’t crippling, and he more than made up for it by blocking balls in the dirt and eking out extra strikes.

Nymr83 Jan 05 2016 07:27 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

a great post-career redemption for Piazza's defense. pitch-framing has only come into the public mind in the last few years, but i wonder how long some of the smarter teams have been keeping their own data

batmagadanleadoff Jan 05 2016 07:41 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Pitch framing's been around and recognized since way before we were born, probably as long as there was fast pitch baseball. I remember reading about it when I was still in elementary school. What's new about it is that its value can now apparently be measured and quantified.

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2016 01:48 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Davidoff opts for the camp that tosses PED questions aside and goes all Bonds, Clemens, Bagwell & Piazza on his ballot. Also casts for Griffey, Edgar, Schilling, Mussina, Trammell, Larry Walker. "... here are my parameters regarding illegal performance-enhancing drugs: If Major League Baseball suspended a player for an on-field transgression, I consider that damaging, although not disqualifying, to his candidacy. Barring such discipline, it’s irrelevant ... [and] I’m not going to penalize Bonds for making the decisions he did — the same decisions that countless of his contemporaries made — during a time when he mostly faced no real danger of consequences. He is arguably the greatest hitter in the game’s history." Results tomorrow.

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2016 01:59 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

btw, on the question of Piazza's defense, have just been reading Pedro's recent autobio -- and while he doesn't quite trash Mike and his catching abilities (maybe being honest, maybe being polite) it's clear he didn't think much of them. The lack of throwing skills was obviously part of it but he also thought MP's long & bulky body gave away far too many pitch locations ahead of time as he was clanking around back there. He much preferred Ramon Castro while w/the NYM. [fimg=150:2fy3z9y0]https://lifetimetopps.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/pedro-book-cover.jpg[/fimg:2fy3z9y0]

Ceetar Jan 05 2016 02:12 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Frayed Knot wrote: btw, on the question of Piazza's defense, have just been reading Pedro's recent autobio -- and while he doesn't quite trash Mike and his catching abilities (maybe being honest, maybe being polite) it's clear he didn't think much of them. The lack of throwing skills was obviously part of it but he also thought MP's long & bulky body gave away far too many pitch locations ahead of time as he was clanking around back there. He much preferred Ramon Castro while w/the NYM. that's interesting. Of course, he's full of it. Another classic Moneyball example of a player not really understanding the game. K/BB with Castro in 2005, 2.97. With Piazza 7! There was a higher SB success rate, 3/6 with Castro instead of 7/8 with Piazza and just a tad over 100 IP with each. The ERA is a tick lower with Castro but the OPS against is .052 points higher In 2006 his numbers were better with Lo Duca than with Castro as well, though not as starkly but he wasn't as good a pitcher in '06 either. The Mets finished 7 games out in '05 so it doesn't really matter, but it would've been at least a little bit closer had Pedro not insisted on pitching to Castro.

Centerfield Jan 05 2016 02:23 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I'd have to read the actual text FK is alluding to, but results aside, if Pedro is saying he preferred pitching to Castro for whatever reason, real or imagined, I don't think you can question him on that.

Ceetar Jan 05 2016 02:30 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

I'm not questioning what he preferred, I'm pointing at evidence that what he preferred was detrimental.

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2016 02:51 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Of course some of Pedro's opinion of Piazza was formed back in their Dodger days together so the one year of NYM stats aren't the only story. Basically he just mentioned how his FA contract w/the Mets brought him back with Piazza though he preferred pitching to Castro even while he recognized Randolph's need to get Piazza in the lineup as often as possible. In his one full year with the Mets Pedro's starts were divided almost exactly between the two catchers. There were rumors during his NYM time (mostly flogged at the time by Mad Dog, IIRC) that Piazza & Pedro's brother Ramon had clashed during their LA days and that Pedro was anti-Mike because of that. If so the book doesn't mention it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 05 2016 02:55 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Pedro's a smart dude, but, hell, even for savants, what's comfortable isn't necessarily what's good for us. I mean, ask a heroin user if he prefers to be high. Back to the voting, though, some Digital Dandy* writer or other recently said something to the effect of, looking at these ballots, you can pretty plainly tell the difference between those who love baseball and those who simply made a living reporting on it. I don't remember who it was, but I agree wholeheartedly. (I do remember he counted Noble among those who enjoy the "gatekeeper"/access thing more than they actually love, or even like, the sport. Sadly, I get a similar feeling from his writing/opinions.)

Centerfield Jan 05 2016 04:05 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Pedro's a smart dude, but, hell, even for savants, what's comfortable isn't necessarily what's good for us. I mean, ask a heroin user if he prefers to be high. Back to the voting, though, some Digital Dandy* writer or other recently said something to the effect of, looking at these ballots, you can pretty plainly tell the difference between those who love baseball and those who simply made a living reporting on it. I don't remember who it was, but I agree wholeheartedly. (I do remember he counted Noble among those who enjoy the "gatekeeper"/access thing more than they actually love, or even like, the sport. Sadly, I get a similar feeling from his writing/opinions.) I read that too. Agree wholeheartedly on Marty Noble. On the other end of the spectrum, there is Ken Rosenthal. So likeable. And seems to really love covering the game.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2016 04:58 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

If Piazza does get elected today, the next "hot topic" will be what cap he wears on his plaque. The Los Angeles Times has already started the discussion: The Dodgers' uncomfortable winter could take a bitter turn Wednesday, when the best hitter the team has developed since moving to Los Angeles could be elected to the Hall of Fame and promptly remind the world he wants to be immortalized in the cap of the New York Mets. Full article: Mike Piazza's desire to enter Hall of Fame in a Mets cap speaks volumes about the Dodgers' ills

Ceetar Jan 06 2016 05:05 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too.

Mets Willets Point Jan 06 2016 05:11 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Ceetar wrote: reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. It would be cool if they designed it with the catcher's mask pulled up over his head, although I don't know if they can get that artistic with a relief sculpture on a plaque.

Zvon Jan 06 2016 07:45 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Mets – Willets Point wrote: Ceetar wrote: reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. It would be cool if they designed it with the catcher's mask pulled up over his head, although I don't know if they can get that artistic with a relief sculpture on a plaque. I think it could be done w/o a problem. This is a great idea aside from the fact I really want to see more Met caps in the hall. I'm okay if GriffJR breaks Seaver's record. He would be a worthy successor. I don't lump Ken with the juicers. And there is no chance Jeter would ever break Tom's record. Mark my words on that score.

Ceetar Jan 06 2016 07:47 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Zvon wrote: And there is no chance Jeter would ever break Tom's record. Mark my words on that score. Too many people don't vote for any whiff of PED scandals, so yeah, no chance he's close.

Zvon Jan 06 2016 08:27 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

How long are they gonna drag this out. I never saw Sherman live before. He was good. He said some interesting things about the steroid age but I will not be swayed. If there's evidence, in my book you never get in. Questionmark players (like they say Piazza is) get the benefit of the doubt from me (as long as their neck isn't thicker than their waist). Good luck to Griffey Jr. I predict he goes in at 99.8. % Piazza, 86 %. OE: Oh, 6pm. So they will talk 3 hours about this? Oy.

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2016 08:59 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Ceetar wrote: good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. To be fair, I doubt Beltran elicits too many warm fuzzies with most of his fanbases to justify a "hot topic" debate over who's cap he'd wear. On top of that, I'd imagine he'd have a McGriff/Sheffield type of journey through the balloting process.

Ceetar Jan 06 2016 09:03 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

SteveJRogers wrote: Ceetar wrote: good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. To be fair, I doubt Beltran elicits too many warm fuzzies with most of his fanbases to justify a "hot topic" debate over who's cap he'd wear. On top of that, I'd imagine he'd have a McGriff/Sheffield type of journey through the balloting process. perhaps, but lots of people I follow and talk are rabidly pro-Beltran in both cases. He's easily one of my favorite Mets all-time.

SteveJRogers Jan 06 2016 09:12 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: good to put 'hot' in quotation marks since I feel like this has been discussed for at least 8 years. reasonable shot they just go no logo like they probably will for Beltran too. To be fair, I doubt Beltran elicits too many warm fuzzies with most of his fanbases to justify a "hot topic" debate over who's cap he'd wear. On top of that, I'd imagine he'd have a McGriff/Sheffield type of journey through the balloting process. perhaps, but lots of people I follow and talk are rabidly pro-Beltran in both cases. He's easily one of my favorite Mets all-time. I've seen lots of people prop up Billy Wagner as a HOFer and it looks like he's a one-and-done.

Ceetar Jan 06 2016 09:17 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

SteveJRogers wrote: I've seen lots of people prop up Billy Wagner as a HOFer and it looks like he's a one-and-done. He probably is. Bonds, Clemens, Griffey, Hoffman, Martinez, McGwuire, Schilling, Sosa, Wagner was my IBWAA ballot.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2016 10:25 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Wagner just didnt pitch enough innings for me.

Nymr83 Jan 06 2016 11:06 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Griffey named on 99%, all but 3 ballots. can we kick those 3 guys out?

Gwreck Jan 06 2016 11:11 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

The biggest mystery to me: how does Clemens get 4 more votes than Bonds?

Nymr83 Jan 06 2016 11:15 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Gwreck wrote: The biggest mystery to me: how does Clemens get 4 more votes than Bonds? Yankee fan writers who can justify cheating to help the yankees only.

Zvon Jan 06 2016 11:24 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Nymr83 wrote: Wagner just didnt pitch enough innings for me. This^ for me. But when you think about it he did get a lot of saves for his inning amount, relatively speaking. Still, in Hoffman's shadow he don't get my vote. 99.3 I wouldn't have wanted to see anyone else break Seaver's record. Maybe some day Trout will break Griffey's.

Frayed Knot Jan 07 2016 12:49 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Thought there'd be more than two, but they got the best two anyway. Bagwell (71.6%) is now close enough to where he looks likely soon; Raines (69.8) is almost sure to get enough of a final year push to get him over the top next time; and a strong first year from Trevor Hoffman (67.3).

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2016 02:45 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Nymr83 wrote: Griffey named on 99%, all but 3 ballots. can we kick those 3 guys out? Wasn't there at least one "blank ballot" protest feller? Wagner hangs on, as does Sosa (by a whitened fingernail, at 7.0%). We salute the following departed, in reverse order of votes received: Brad Ausmus, Luis Castillo, Troy Glaus, Mark Grudzielanek, Mike Hampton, Mike Lowell, and Randy Winn (0/0%); Garret Anderson (1/0.2%), Jason Kendall and David F*cking Eckstein (2/0.5%); Mike Sweeney (3/0.7%); NOMAH (8/1.8%); and Jim Edmonds (13/2.5%).

batmagadanleadoff Jan 07 2016 03:40 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Wagner hangs on, as does Sosa (by a whitened fingernail, at 7.0%). We salute the following departed, in reverse order of votes received: Brad Ausmus, Luis Castillo, Troy Glaus, Mark Grudzielanek, Mike Hampton, Mike Lowell, and Randy Winn (0/0%); Garret Anderson (1/0.2%), Jason Kendall and David F*cking Eckstein (2/0.5%); Mike Sweeney (3/0.7%); NOMAH (8/1.8%); and Jim Edmonds (13/2.5%). And Alan Trammell (180/40.9%)

Nymr83 Jan 07 2016 04:42 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Hopefully the Veterans Committee will take care of Trammel as soon as they get the chance. Jim Edmonds. there are worse players in the hall. the ballot is just so clogged right now that he didnt even get a sniff

MFS62 Jan 07 2016 04:06 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Wagner hangs on, as does Sosa (by a whitened fingernail, at 7.0%). We salute the following departed, in reverse order of votes received: Brad Ausmus, Luis Castillo, Troy Glaus, Mark Grudzielanek, Mike Hampton, Mike Lowell, and Randy Winn (0/0%); Garret Anderson (1/0.2%), Jason Kendall and David F*cking Eckstein (2/0.5%); Mike Sweeney (3/0.7%); NOMAH (8/1.8%); and Jim Edmonds (13/2.5%.) Amazing, and why I believe the writers who say they rely on metrics may not use them all the time: Edmonds > eliminated in his first year of eligibility .284/.376/.527/.903 and 132 OPS+ Junior > near unanimous selection to HOF in his first year of eligibility .284/.370./.538/.906 and 136 OPS+ For those writers, shouldn't it have been closer? Or were those 2.5% of the votes from those writers? Just wondering. Later

Ceetar Jan 07 2016 04:08 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Edmonds should've gotten more love.

Frayed Knot Jan 07 2016 04:41 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

It is surprising how close those career stats are -- although Griffey did so across 3,300+ more PAs (some five extra season's worth) and a better peak part of his career. But, yeah, Edmonds was a heckuva ballplayer even if he was also the biggest hotdog in the outfield aside from those race-running mascots in Milwaukee.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 07 2016 05:15 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

MFS62 wrote: Amazing, and why I believe the writers who say they rely on metrics may not use them all the time: Edmonds > eliminated in his first year of eligibility .284/.376/.527/.903 and 132 OPS+ Junior > near unanimous selection to HOF in his first year of eligibility .284/.370./.538/.906 and 136 OPS+ For those writers, shouldn't it have been closer? Or were those 2.5% of the votes from those writers? Just wondering. Later Griffey's 6-year peak: .300/.388/.620, 44-45 WAR. That's Mays-at-HIS-peak stuff. Edmonds was great at his best, but not quite THERE there... and he had about 60% of the PAS the Kid did. Picture Koufax longevity, but with Drysdale's peak. Still... he deserved better.

Frayed Knot Jan 08 2016 03:56 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Next year's first-timers: - Manny Ramirez: a HoF career by the numbers but not only is linked to PEDs but is proven to have used them several times after the implementation of testing when, theoretically at least, not 'everyone was doing them' - Ivan Rodriguez: only link to PEDs (as far as I remember) is via Canseco's book (which may or may not be accurate) although that's a helluva lot more than what kept Piazza and Bagwell out for years. - Vlad Guerrero - Magglio Ordonez - Jorge Posada - Edgar Renteria btw, can you tell that the 'Latinization' of MLB is in full swing here? The top six new candidates are from Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, DR, Venezuela, PR, and Columbia also Derrick Lee, Jason Varitek, Orlando Cabrera, Freddy Sanchez, Tim Wakefield, Carlos Guillen, Arthur Rhodes, Javier Vazquez, Aaron Rowand, J.D. Drew, Pat Burrell, Melvin Mora, Danys Baez, Mike Cameron, Julio Lugo

Centerfield Jan 08 2016 04:00 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Magglio Ordonez is also "linked" to PED's in that rumors say he bought his way out of Canseco's book.

Nymr83 Jan 08 2016 06:13 AM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

i dont think any of those guys go in on the first ballot, Pudge probably gets 50%.

seawolf17 Jan 08 2016 02:33 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Nymr83 wrote: i dont think any of those guys go in on the first ballot, Pudge probably gets 50%. Agree. Pudge will be closest -- and will get in eventually -- but the others won't. Posada will linger around 30% for his full ten years and then go away, which will be funny.

Vic Sage Jan 08 2016 03:02 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

you don't think Vlad will get in eventually? or just on first ballot? Because he's getting in, and he won't have to wait long. He was one of the most dominant hitters of his era and his rate numbers are better than Griffey's... he just didn't hang around for a decade of declining play.

Nymr83 Jan 08 2016 03:51 PM Re: 2016 Baseball HoF Voting

Vic Sage wrote: you don't think Vlad will get in eventually? or just on first ballot? Because he's getting in, and he won't have to wait long. He was one of the most dominant hitters of his era and his rate numbers are better than Griffey's... he just didn't hang around for a decade of declining play. i was just talking next year. easy to forget how good Vlad was as he spent most of his career in the obscurity of Montreal. Vlad's hitting was pretty similiar to Giffey's on a per at-bat basis, Griffey managed 2,000 more Plate Appearances. Griffey was hurt a lot for a decade, but i wouldnt say he was "hanging around" until those last 2 years in Seattle. Guerrero had a strong arm but was an otherwise below average defender in RF. Griffey was a very good defensive CF for half his career (and maybe out of position for the 2nd half, Jeter-style)