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Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 09:07 AM

Joel Sherman in the New York Post says that the Braves may trade Andrelton Simmons: Braves make Andrelton Simmons available; should Mets get involved? Joel Sherman wrote: I have been told that in early talks, they have asked for a huge return price on Simmons, but I do wonder if the Mets would at least entice further discussion if they started a package with Kevin Plawecki and well-regarded shortstop prospect Amed Rosario.

Ceetar Nov 12 2015 09:08 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Supposedly the price is at least deGrom or Harvey so he's not _really_ available and is as worth talking about as like, Tulo last offseason.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 09:11 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

The initial asking price may turn out to be higher than what Atlanta might eventually accept.

Ceetar Nov 12 2015 09:16 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The initial asking price may turn out to be higher than what Atlanta might eventually accept. this is true of every single player in the majors though.

MFS62 Nov 12 2015 09:17 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

If he's that good, why are they trading him? If they have someone in the minors who they think is better, why not go for that guy? The price might be cheaper, since that player hasn't proven himself in the majors yet. And if they're going to get the inexperienced player, they might as well wait for Rosario, because reports indicate he'll be worth the wait. Pass on Simmons, unless the asking price is less than reported. Later

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 09:19 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Ceetar wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: The initial asking price may turn out to be higher than what Atlanta might eventually accept. this is true of every single player in the majors though. So then... nobody is "worth talking about"? A forum that doesn't talk about things would quickly become as pointless as your initial reply.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 09:20 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

MFS62 wrote: If he's that good, why are they trading him? If they have someone in the minors who they think is better, why not go for that guy? The price might be cheaper, since that player hasn't proven himself in the majors yet. Why would the Braves have a lower asking price for the guy they want to keep than for the guy they want to trade?

Ceetar Nov 12 2015 09:22 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Actually my initial reply pointed out what they're actually asking for. i.e., he's not available. There are a lot of players that ARE actually available. Supposedly the Mets and Mariners 'talked' about Juan Lagares. There's at least some value in peeking at the Mariners roster and theorizing trades if that's your bag. But today on the Internet there are going to be thousands upon thousands of words spent on Andrelton Simmons who's not actually being shopped. I mean, pick a random team, pick a nice player on that team and ask yourself "Would they take Harvey for him?" And then we could talk about all those players too.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 09:29 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

In the very first paragraph, it says, "the Braves have let clubs know they would be willing to discuss Andrelton Simmons". That's different from picking a player at random and saying, "Would we be able to get Trout for Harvey." And how do YOU know what they're actually asking for?

Nymr83 Nov 12 2015 09:31 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I can't decide if Simmons is Ozzie Smith or Rey Ordonez, he's probably something in between, but do you really want that bat in a lineup that has greatly struggled at times to score runs? and at the cost of a legit prospect or two? I'll stick to Flores and wait for Gavin Cecchini or Ahmed Rosario to be ready. Rosario looks to be years away with his bat, but Cechinni put up a .317/.377/.442 line at AA this year at only 21 years old. he is the future!

Centerfield Nov 12 2015 09:32 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I think we can surmise that Simmons is available since the article states that the Braves have let clubs know that he is available. And I don't see anything about wanting Harvey or deGrom. In fact, it suggests they are looking for young position players. That being said, I'd pass. 5 years and 53 million is a huge commitment for a guy with an OPS in the mid to low .600's. And we already have an all-glove, no-hit SS in Tejada, though admittedly not as good with glove. I'd use the money, and prospects, elsewhere.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 12 2015 09:44 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

BOCA RATON, Fla. – Mets officials inquired Thursday morning about the now available Andrelton Simmons and were told by their Braves counterparts that it would take Jake deGrom or Matt Harvey to land the shortstop, which instantly curtailed talks, The Post has learned. read the rest at: http://nypost.com/2015/11/12/braves-mak ... -involved/

TransMonk Nov 12 2015 09:58 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I believe the Mets just released their year end Top 10 prospect list and it had 4 shortstops in it: I don't see any reason to stray from a Flores/Tejada combo until one of these guys is ready.

Centerfield Nov 12 2015 10:01 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I swear that is a different article than the one I read 15 minutes ago. If they are asking for one of the big 4, they should be laughed off.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 10:04 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Centerfield wrote: If they are asking for one of the big 4, they should be laughed off. I agree. I don't blame them for asking, but the answer has to be no.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 10:06 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

And yes, the lead paragraph changed after I initially posted the link: Joel Sherman's revised paragraph wrote: Mets officials inquired Thursday morning about the now available Andrelton Simmons and were told by their Braves counterparts it would take Jacob deGrom or Matt Harvey to land the shortstop, which instantly curtailed talks, The Post has learned. You see, I tried to be ethical and post a link instead of copying the article, and it just led to confusion. Next time I'll copy and paste instead.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 12 2015 10:06 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Does this mean that the Braves think Noah's not as good as Jake or Matt?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 12 2015 10:07 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I wish we as a forum could just discuss the guy without first deciding which papers are telling lies and which "rumors" are true, and apply some perspective. Simmons would give us a great glove, but he hasn't progressed as a hitter the way the Braves hoped. He also doesn't do much as a basestealer. He's also one of those guys they signed for a long time (till 2020). So it's not likely other clubs would necessary agree to trade their deGroms for him. That'll drop the price, I would guess. Are you interested now is the question?

batmagadanleadoff Nov 12 2015 10:07 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And yes, the lead paragraph changed after I initially posted the link: Joel Sherman's revised paragraph wrote: Mets officials inquired Thursday morning about the now available Andrelton Simmons and were told by their Braves counterparts it would take Jacob deGrom or Matt Harvey to land the shortstop, which instantly curtailed talks, The Post has learned. You see, I tried to be ethical and post a link instead of copying the article, and it just led to confusion. Next time I'll copy and paste instead. Two sentences is fair use, no?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 12 2015 10:12 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I guess so. And maybe I should have done that. But if these articles are going to continue to be revised, there's still a chance that confusion will result.

Centerfield Nov 12 2015 10:15 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Yes. In one version they talked about asking for Plawecki. In the next, it was deGrom!

batmagadanleadoff Nov 12 2015 10:16 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I guess so. And maybe I should have done that. But if these articles are going to continue to be revised, there's still a chance that confusion will result. The article states that Mets officials inquired "Thursday morning" so it must be a very recent development.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 12 2015 12:51 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Centerfield wrote: I think we can surmise that Simmons is available since the article states that the Braves have let clubs know that he is available. And I don't see anything about wanting Harvey or deGrom. In fact, it suggests they are looking for young position players. That being said, I'd pass. 5 years and 53 million is a huge commitment for a guy with an OPS in the mid to low .600's. And we already have an all-glove, no-hit SS in Tejada, though admittedly not as good with glove. I'd use the money, and prospects, elsewhere. 5 years/53 for his peak years is certainly NOT huge for a guy whose glove-- a la Peak Lagares-- makes him Murphy-plus in terms of value even in an offensive down year. In a year when he runs into a few/gets some batted-ball luck? Like 2013, he's close to MVP-caliber in terms of value. He's so good with the glove, it's like buying a Familia (and any other groundball pitcher on the roster) upgrade with your shortstop. And he's 26. The only reason they're moving him is because they know they can ask for and get a lot, and buy a little more ammo/time for the rebuild they're doing. Anything short of our so-called Big Four should be open to discussion.

Edgy MD Nov 12 2015 12:59 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Simmons would give us a great glove, but he hasn't progressed as a hitter the way the Braves hoped. He also doesn't do much as a basestealer. He's also one of those guys they signed for a long time (till 2020). He's got a lot in common with Lagares, which might make a good starting place for a trade package. I don't think that top 10 list above is published by the Mets, so much as MLB.com, but I tend to agree with the idea of sticking with what the team has while their assets are growing at that position. The problem, of course, with that attitude is that it butts up against the now-is-our-window-of-opportunity attitude. I have little knowledge whatsoever of this Milton Ramos character. Definitely sounds more like a catcher. And beyond that, he sounds more like a Minnesota Twin.

Centerfield Nov 12 2015 03:03 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I was going to write that Simmons was not worth his contract. That we'd be paying $53 million for a modern day Ordonez. But then I figured I should look up his stats. Do you guys realize Rey's OPS as a Met? .594. Holy crap Rey was a bad hitter.

HahnSolo Nov 12 2015 06:33 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

So they asked for deGrom and settled on Erick Aybar. They know how to drive a hard bargain, I tell you.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 12 2015 06:41 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Yeah, so I guess he was available. Simmons to the Angels for Aybar and 3 kiddos (2 pitchers and a catcher). Those were Anaheim's top 2 pitchers apparently, so our equivalent of that is probably goes Flores + Matz and maybe more. I'm cool skipping that one.

Nymr83 Nov 12 2015 07:22 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Glad we didn't bite. Good deal for the braves

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 12 2015 08:06 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

This isn't going to help the Braves beat us any more often, at least not next year, I would think.

Centerfield Nov 12 2015 08:25 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Trades like this show me that I have not a clue how to be a major league GM. Clrarly I have no clue the value of Andrelton Simmons.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 12 2015 08:51 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I'm thinking that any "talk" they had with the Mets on this was along the lines of, "The price is $1 million... but for YOU, old friend, we'll knock that down to $6 million." Newcomb's a good arm and all, and a former first rounder with elite K numbers... but he's posting 6 BB/9 numbers at AA at age 22, with similar numbers at every level. And he's the centerpiece.

Ceetar Nov 13 2015 08:42 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Yeah, so I guess he was available. Simmons to the Angels for Aybar and 3 kiddos (2 pitchers and a catcher). Those were Anaheim's top 2 pitchers apparently, so our equivalent of that is probably goes Flores + Matz and maybe more. I'm cool skipping that one. yup. mea culpa I guess. But it definitely seems like he wasn't really available to the Mets. So this is probably good for the Mets, at least in 2016. More holes to shoot singles by in the Atlanta infield.

Centerfield Nov 13 2015 08:56 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I have to tell you. I'm still just amazed by this deal. I don't think I've ever underestimated a player's value as much as this. To me, Andrelton Simmons is nearly a clone of Juan Lagares. Both elite defenders. Both suck at the plate (OPS in the mid .600's). Both have the ability to put up nice WAR numbers because of their defense, but really create a hole in the lineup. Of course, SS is a more elite position than CF, but CF is still pretty fucking important. So if Simmons has this much value, should we make Lagares available and ask for Jose Fernandez? I mean, think about this. Tejada and Simmons are nearly identical at the plate. Tejada plays excellent defense. Simmons plays All-World defense. Simmons is a "steal" at 5 years, 53 million. Tejada is a non-tender risk at $2.5 million. This is crazy.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 13 2015 09:02 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

I think part of the issue is defensive valuation. In this particular case, that may start with Ruben, who's only excellent with the glove relative to our other options there. He's more "solid" than "excellent," near as I can figure.

Ceetar Nov 13 2015 09:15 AM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Centerfield wrote: I mean, think about this. Tejada and Simmons are nearly identical at the plate. Tejada plays excellent defense. Simmons plays All-World defense. Simmons is a "steal" at 5 years, 53 million. Tejada is a non-tender risk at $2.5 million. This is crazy. Well, Tejada is actually better at the plate. Fangraphs has him at wRC+ of 95 (same as Flores) for 2015. Simmons is 82. League average for SS is 85. Tejada's averagish, maybe a tick above, with the glove. Simmons is tops, but hell, if you can't score any runs it doesn't matter how many you prevent. Seems crazy to me too. fwiw, checkout the inside edge defense numbers for Simmons vs Tejada and Flores. Surprises me how fast Tejada drops off, range wise. [url]http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=3&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=10847,5519,5827 There were 1359 balls deemed routine, that over 90% of them are turned into outs. Simmons made them into outs roughly 1350 of them. Of all the plays over the entire season, roughly once a month Simmons might miss a routine play. That's of all the weird hops and quick runners.

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2015 01:22 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Not knowing much about the prospects involved I'm not really sure what to think of this deal other than the obvious of it being another deal where the Braves are looking forward to a payoff about when their new suburban stadium is ready in two years. John Sickels weighs in here And, as always, do remember that prospects are simply prospects so that just because the Braves got some potentially good ones doesn't make them the equivalent of Jose Fernandez. Some of the reader comments (after Sickels' piece) think this is a decidedly BAD trade for Los Bravos.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2015 03:35 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Ceetar wrote: Simmons is tops, but hell, if you can't score any runs it doesn't matter how many you prevent. Well, sure it does, accepting for the moment that we're exaggerating on both sides of the equation. The guy is pretty consistently a 3-bWAR man on defense. In fact, in his four seasons, he's put up 2.4 (in 49 games), 5.4 (in 157), 3.9 (146), and 3.5 (147). Not only are those numbers not seen since Rey's heyday, Ordóñez was much more volatile from season to season. You'd need eight years of healthy Rey-O to get four seasons like that, and the Mets never had no eight years of healthy Rey-O. Depending on how much faith you have in baseball-reference's defensive numbers, that's exactly the guy you run out there even if he's given you a zero-win, replacement-level bat. And as wanting as his offense has been, he been giving them more than a zero.

Ceetar Nov 13 2015 03:45 PM Re: Let's talk about Andrelton Simmons

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: Simmons is tops, but hell, if you can't score any runs it doesn't matter how many you prevent. Well, sure it does, accepting for the moment that we're exaggerating on both sides of the equation. The guy is pretty consistently a 3-bWAR man on defense. In fact, in his four seasons, he's put up 2.4 (in 49 games), 5.4 (in 157), 3.9 (146), and 3.5 (147). Not only are those numbers not seen since Rey's heyday, Ordóñez was much more volatile from season to season. You'd need eight years of healthy Rey-O to get four seasons like that, and the Mets never had no eight years of healthy Rey-O. Depending on how much faith you have in baseball-reference's defensive numbers, that's exactly the guy you run out there even if he's given you a zero-win, replacement level bat. And as wanting as his offense has been, he been giving them more than a zero. Well yeah, exaggeration. Actually his bat is like, 18% lower than average and below replacement level. A lot depends on how much stock you make in defensive metrics and the related valuation of those metrics. He's certainly a vacuum, but does is that really worth 3 wins? maybe. It's certainly not break the bank though, imo, and from a Mets standpoint I'd rather the scales be a little more on the offense side given their high K pitchers.