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For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Frayed Knot Dec 01 2015 04:34 PM

For a BIG Price the BoSox land David Price - 7 years, $217, topping the Scherzer deal w/Washington from last season. Price just turned 30 y/o in August so he'll turn 37 just before this contract is ready to expire. Just when you think these deals have reached their ceiling, we find that they haven't.

Nymr83 Dec 01 2015 04:48 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

glad it wasn't us.

Mets Willets Point Dec 01 2015 05:15 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Contract expires in 2022. I predict he'll be the most hated man in Boston by 2019. Probably finish the contract in Texas or Anaheim.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 01 2015 05:44 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, Johnny Cueto has rejected a six-year, $120 million deal from Arizona.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2015 06:12 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Yeah, turning that down seemed nuts. Until just now, it did.

d'Kong76 Dec 01 2015 06:51 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

I'd rather mock the Mets for not spending than mocking them for doing foolish contracts like this one.

Lefty Specialist Dec 01 2015 07:08 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

They better win something with these four cheap, controllable starters while they can because in the early '20's they'll be making the equivalent of the GDP of a small African country.

d'Kong76 Dec 01 2015 07:32 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Lefty Specialist wrote: They better win something with these four cheap, controllable starters while they can because in the early '20's they'll be making the equivalent of the GDP of a small African country. All the more a reminder to start a win NOW!! thread or two.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 01 2015 08:14 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

There's a 3-year opt-out, so if he's good he goes, and if he sucks, he stays. Still that's Arod money. Will Jim Rice give up #14?

TransMonk Dec 01 2015 08:28 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

d'Kong76 wrote: I'd rather mock the Mets for not spending than mocking them for doing foolish contracts like this one. A thousand times, THIS.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2015 09:24 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Dude went 9-1 after being dealt to Toronto. That's what you hope for after a midseason trade — somewhere in the company of Randy Johnson 1998 and Rick Sutcliffe 1984. You WANT to hit the free agent market after a stretch run like that.

MFS62 Dec 02 2015 06:50 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Hmmm, lefty in Fenway Park. I wonder what his career numbers have been when he pitched there. And even if they have been respectable, how will those numbers look toward the end of that contract when he loses a few MPH off his heater? Time will tell. Later

Benjamin Grimm Dec 02 2015 08:19 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

The biggest question, to me is, would they still be interested in Matt Harvey?

Edgy MD Dec 02 2015 08:23 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

MFS62 wrote: Hmmm, lefty in Fenway Park. I wonder what his career numbers have been when he pitched there. And even if they have been respectable... 6-1 with a 1.95 ERA, holding opponents (the Red Sox) to a .550 OPS.

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2015 08:58 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

So in the last 18 months, Dave Dombrowski has now traded for David Price 1, traded away David Price 2, and now signed David Price 3 as a FA. 1 - July 31, 2014. Price dealt to Detroit from Tampa in a three-way deal while sending away Austin Jackson, Willy Adames, Drew Smyly 2 - July 30, 2015. From Detroit to Toronto in exchange for Jairo Lebourt, Matt Boyd, Daniel Norris 3 - December 1, 2015. Signed by Dombrowski after he moved from the Tigers to the Red Sox in August 2015

MFS62 Dec 02 2015 09:05 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Edgy MD wrote: MFS62 wrote: Hmmm, lefty in Fenway Park. I wonder what his career numbers have been when he pitched there. And even if they have been respectable... 6-1 with a 1.95 ERA, holding opponents (the Red Sox) to a .550 OPS. That's respectable. Thanks, Later

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2015 09:14 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Frayed Knot wrote: So in the last 18 months, Dave Dombrowski has now traded for David Price 1, traded away David Price 2, and now signed David Price 3 as a FA. 1 - July 31, 2014. Price dealt to Detroit from Tampa in a three-way deal while sending away Austin Jackson, Willy Adames, Drew Smyly 2 - July 30, 2015. From Detroit to Toronto in exchange for Jairo Lebourt, Matt Boyd, Daniel Norris 3 - December 1, 2015. Signed by Dombrowski after he moved from the Tigers to the Red Sox in August 2015 On a smaller scale, Jerry DiPoto has now traded away Mark Trumbo twice: Once from the Dbaggs and now from the Mariners (to the Orioles, evidently, who must be resigned to losing Davis?)

Centerfield Dec 02 2015 09:26 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

I'll stop short of saying it's a bad move, although that was my gut reaction. After thinking through it some more, I guess I'll say it's a curious move. Look, everyone knows the track record of big time contracts to pitchers. And Dombrowski is no idiot, so he's aware of it too. It's just that deals like this usually come when a team is right on the verge of contention, and I don't know if Boston is there yet. If the Cubs made this move, or if Pittsburgh could afford this move, then I get it. But to me, Boston seems a few pieces away still. (Though I will admit I don't know Boston that well.) Also, I'm not sure that these huge contracts to pitchers are necessarily all bad. Everyone points to Kevin Brown and Mike Hampton as examples. But Kershaw has earned every bit of his contract. So has Felix Hernandez. Zack Greinke pitched so well he's going to earn himself a raise. And even the bad ones may have arguably been worth it. CC Sabathia's contract is bad, but CC pitched them to a World Championship in 2009. And the MFY's still made the playoffs 5 out of those 7 years. Barry Zito's contract may have been one of the worst of all, but he pitched great in the post-season of 2012, and helped win a championship. Plus, even more so than the Yankees, the Giants seem to be doing pretty ok notwithstanding. Big market teams can take the chance to win it all, and absorb the downside later. Still, $31 million per seems a lot to give for Price, who I've kind of viewed as that second-tier of "ace". So who knows. I thought that Red Sox made some pretty bad moves when they signed Sandoval and Hanley Ramirez. I guess it will depend what else they can do this winter and next before we know whether this will work out for them. But as of right now, it seems like they are missing Theo Epstein pretty badly.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2015 09:29 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Centerfield wrote: Big market teams can take the chance to win it all, and absorb the downside later. I don't think it has much to do with market, in the Giants' case, so much as their ability to grow two (now three) young cheap All-Star starting pitchers while the one they bought failed to deliver.

Ceetar Dec 02 2015 09:33 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Red Sox scored plenty of runs, allowed a ton of runs. Suppressing the second is a huge thing for them next year. If they can round out the rotation with another above average pitcher, they might be favorites.

Centerfield Dec 02 2015 09:47 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: Big market teams can take the chance to win it all, and absorb the downside later. I don't think it has much to do with market, in the Giants' case, so much as their ability to grow two (now three) young cheap All-Star starting pitchers while the one they bought failed to deliver. In 2012 two of those All-Stars were anything but cheap. Matt Cain made $15.8 million. Lincecum made $18.25 million. They also spent $8.5 million on their closer. Notwithstanding the bad contract to Zito ($19 million), and getting no production from Freddy Sanchez and Aaron Rowand (just under $20 million combined), they still had enough flexibility to absorb those bad deals and pay to put a winning team on the field. Such is the luxury of a team with a top 10 payroll.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2015 10:06 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Yeah, right now Boston might be the favorite for the East. The Orioles aren't getting a lot better, the MFYs are going to really suck until they get out from under the Beltran-Sabathia-Teixera-Arod contracts, and they just took Toronto's best pitcher. Plus they got Kimbrel. I don;t know anything about Tampa as usual.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2015 10:11 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Centerfield wrote: In 2012 two of those All-Stars were anything but cheap. Matt Cain made $15.8 million. Lincecum made $18.25 million. They also spent $8.5 million on their closer. Sure they paid these guys as they matured and got their leverage, but he Zito deal goes back to 2007 and hurt them pretty much immediately. They survived it because they were better than it. Hopefully, the Mets pay as they go also.

Vic Sage Dec 02 2015 10:30 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Is Price "worth" it? Worth is subjective. What ballplayer is intrinsically worth anything to our society? What do they contribute? Nothing; they offer distraction, something to do and care and get passionate about beyond our families. But anybody with a unique and limited skill or commodity (like athletic ability) is "worth" whatever another party sees as necessary to a money-making opportunity. Price is, by definition, "worth" it, because the Sox were willing to pay it (and other teams were likely to pay something approaching it, since other teams have given out similar contracts to other pitchers). It's impossible to say its a bad contract unless we have a context. How much money actually is there in baseball now? $30m could just be the new $20m. My bet is that the Sox can afford this and other big contracts and still have a warehouse full of currency. Teams with $200M payrolls are making money. It's all relative. And if Price pitches well, it won't matter how much he's making. And if he doesn't... well, it won't matter how much he's making, because he wouldn't be helping the team at any price. The Sox surely know he's not likely to be productive in the final years of the contract. But they're paying him for what they think they'll get over the next 4-5 years, because they think they can put a good enough team around him in that time frame to get to the post-season. We may think they're not that close, but they must think so, and they're in a better position to know. Or they may feel that $30m/yr will be chump change 5 years from now, and so the contract won't be a particular millstone when Price stops being productive toward the end of the deal, such that it would prevent them from making other moves to improve the team. They may be right or wrong about these things, but they are certainly in a better position to know the economics of baseball generally and the Sox specifically than anyone on the outside looking in. Or, they could be idiots of course, which is also possible, but i think the burden of proof on that point is on anyone making that argument, and to do so without making the argument circular (they're idiots because they made this deal, and they made this deal because they're idiots). Anyway, i'm happy about any deal that makes the Yankees unhappy.

Centerfield Dec 02 2015 10:49 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: In 2012 two of those All-Stars were anything but cheap. Matt Cain made $15.8 million. Lincecum made $18.25 million. They also spent $8.5 million on their closer. Sure they paid these guys as they matured and got their leverage, but he Zito deal goes back to 2007 and hurt them pretty much immediately. They survived it because they were better than it. Hopefully, the Mets pay as they go also. Exactly. They were better than it. They developed good young pitching then opened up the books to retain them. They also signed free agents to supplement this pitching instead of being limited by payroll constraints. The 2010 championship team had acquired talent like Edgar Renteria, Aaron Rowand, and Mark DeRosa. They had a top 10 payroll that allowed them to do this. The Mets? This is exactly what I want them to do. Bring in the talent to supplement their young aces. Hell, the Mets don't even have Barry Zito. It should be easier for them. Be like the Giants. Win it all every other year.

Centerfield Dec 02 2015 10:58 AM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The biggest question, to me is, would they still be interested in Matt Harvey? I think they decided to hold on to their Mookie and let go of their moolah.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 02 2015 02:03 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price

Centerfield wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: The biggest question, to me is, would they still be interested in Matt Harvey? I think they decided to hold on to their Mookie and let go of their moolah. You know, like an actual big-market big-league team. See what you and Vic did? Now I'm muttering under my breath again whenever I see a new item on MLBTR.com, man.

Centerfield Dec 02 2015 02:13 PM Re: For a Price, Ugarte, for a Price