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Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

batmagadanleadoff Dec 08 2015 08:58 PM Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 08 2015 09:16 PM

As if you didn't know, that's the Baseball Hall of Fame's inaugural class (1936) -- often referred to as the greatest group of inductees ever. It is, but not because the early 20th century players were greater. It's the greatest class because it's the first class, culled from decades and decades of baseball without a Hall of Fame. If a 50 year HOF moratorium was imposed beginning today, the class of 2065 would be just as impressive as the class of 1936. Of course, I can't prove this because nobody's gonna put the 50 year kibosh on the HOF, and even if a 50 year moratorium was imposed, I don't think I'd be there to see the 2065'ers make their induction speeches. But we can pretend some and impose a make-believe moratorium to see how another group of HOF inductees would stack up against the class of '36. And that's what this exercise is all about. We're gonna pretend that the last HOF inductees were from the class of 1965, and that a 50 year moratorium on HOF voting was imposed right after ol' Pud Galvin was voted in as the lone selection for 1965. Your job is to make out a ballot for the fantasy post-moratorium 2015 class. Everyone that was eligible for induction beginning in 1966 is eligible for selection in this exercise. Under these rules, you can pick up to seven persons. Let's see whatcha got.

Edgy MD Dec 08 2015 09:09 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

It makes sense that history should stop after Pud. Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Seaver, Carlton, Schmidt, Henderson, Brett. How's that?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 08 2015 09:12 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Edgy MD wrote: It makes sense that history should stop after Pud. Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Seaver, Carlton, Schmidt, Henderson, Brett. How's that? That's eight. You gotta cut one. I got a hunch that Seaver's gonna do real fine on this forum. It's a tough vote, for sure. You omitted, among dozens of top tier HOF'ers, Williams and Musial.

Edgy MD Dec 08 2015 09:34 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Sheesh, I stupidly guessed they were in by 1965. But Musial was still whacking it when the young Mets came into existence. Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Schmidt, Henderson, Musial, Williams. Suck it, pitchers?

dinosaur jesus Dec 08 2015 09:54 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron, Mike Schmidt, and Tom Seaver. Greg Maddux would be deserving too, but screw him.

MFS62 Dec 08 2015 10:29 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

I hope we'll have to wait at least another 50 years before Jeter gets in. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 08 2015 11:44 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Just missing out: Bench; Henderson; Koufax; Clemens; Maddux; Martinez; Johnson; Carlton; Schmidt My list: Mays, Aaron, Williams, Musial, Seaver, Mantle, Bonds

G-Fafif Dec 09 2015 12:40 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Seaver, Mays, Carter, Piazza, Hernandez, Hodges. Get this thing started right.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2015 02:23 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

G-Fafif wrote: Seaver, Mays, Carter, Piazza, Hernandez, Hodges. Get this thing started right. You're obviously one of those hardasses that purposely don't use all of their allotted votes, probably in order to draw attention to yourself. Can't come up with seven HOF'ers, even after a 50 year hiatus? Me, I woulda voted just like you did, but adding Ol' Case to the ballot.

Fman99 Dec 09 2015 06:29 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Musial Mantle Mays Williams Aaron Seaver Frank Robinson

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 09 2015 07:08 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Williams Mays Seaver Henderson Musial Aaron Gehrig

RealityChuck Dec 09 2015 07:13 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Mays Williams Mantle Aaron Seaver Banks Rose If Rose is ineligible, then put in Bonds If Bonds is ineligible due to the steroids thing, then put in Yaz.

G-Fafif Dec 09 2015 08:07 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

batmagadanleadoff wrote: G-Fafif wrote: Seaver, Mays, Carter, Piazza, Hernandez, Hodges. Get this thing started right. You're obviously one of those hardasses that purposely don't use all of their allotted votes, probably in order to draw attention to yourself. Can't come up with seven HOF'ers, even after a 50 year hiatus? Me, I woulda voted just like you did, but adding Ol' Case to the ballot. I had Casey on my first iteration, but figured since he was inducted by Veterans Committee it was somehow outside the spirit of the exercise. Also deeply considered Henderson and Berra (and, after posting, Martinez), but figured we didn't have to grope for Metsian connections. My other totally biased would-be was Koosman, who I've always maintained should have gotten a longer look considering Bunning is in with vaguely similar credentials, but in our new 50 year HOF class, we don't have to think "if he's in, then he's in." I was going to include Aaron, maybe Musial, but why devalue the Hall of Fame with non-Mets?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 09 2015 08:18 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Williams Mays Seaver Henderson Musial Aaron Gehrig Just because he's the Luckiest Man on the Face of the Earth doesn't mean he gets two induction ceremonies, man. Also, Rose, or Yaz, Chuck? I can think of at least twenty I'd rather have over either. Bonds is the second or third best player of all-time, people. Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true. (Killed me to leave off Henderson, though.)

MFS62 Dec 09 2015 08:39 AM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Fman99 wrote: Musial Mantle Mays Williams Aaron Seaver Frank Robinson I like that list. Frank, not only for his playing, but then breaking the color line in the dugout AND the GM seat, he might be the most historically significant person in baseball since (and maybe including ) Jackie. Later

batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2015 12:32 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Bonds is the second or third best player of all-time, people. Search your feelings. You KNOW it to be true. (Killed me to leave off Henderson, though.) I like your list. I got Bonds on my preliminary list too, but I'm struggling with objectivity. My problem is that I hate Clemens but I'm struggling to objectively justify keeping Clemens off a ballot that's got Bonds. I think it's tough to make a case for Bonds while omitting Clemens.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2015 01:11 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

I don't think so. It depends on which timeline you buy. One popular timeline, and the one I tend to ascribe to, is that Clemens started using following his exile from Boston, at which point he became the best pitcher on the planet with two straight Cy Young Awards and 162 wins in his post-Boston career. If he's the pitcher Boston thought he was at that point, he has (generously) 50 wins left in that arm. He's a Hall of Famer, perhaps, but a borderline one. A similar popular timeline has Bonds beginning his juice diet following the 1998 season. He's got an incredible streak going of seven straight four-digit OPS seasons, but he's grown bitter with the attention received by the home run record chase between juicemongers Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. He's already a clearcut Hall of Famer. And he's still at a lofty perch to amass some further great seasons during his decline. Bonds has a much stronger case by this measure. Conveniently, both these changes occur at the age 33-34 border, but... Barry Bonds through age 33 has a best comp of Frank Robinson, and it's not even that strong, with a similarity score of 868 out of 1000. Roger Clemens through the same timeline has a best comp of Dwight Gooden (944 out of 1000), who ain't in no Hall of Fame. It's only from that point forward he starts turning into Tom Seaver.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2015 01:17 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Edgy MD wrote: I don't think so. It depends on which timeline you buy. One popular timeline, and the one I tend to ascribe to, is that Clemens started using following his exile from Boston, at which point he became the best pitcher on the planet with two straight Cy Young Awards and 162 wins in his post-Boston career. If he's the pitcher Boston thought he was at that point, he has (generously) 50 wins left in that arm. He's a Hall of Famer, perhaps, but a borderline one. A similar popular timeline has Bonds beginning his juice diet following the 1998 season. He's got an incredible streak going of seven straight four-digit OPS seasons, but he's grown bitter with the attention received by the home run record chase between juicemongers Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. He's already a clearcut Hall of Famer. And he's still at a lofty perch to amass some further great seasons during his decline. Bonds has a much stronger case by this measure. Or one can just ignore the whole steroid thing altogether and just look at the stats. That's another option.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2015 01:21 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

Of course.

Vic Sage Dec 09 2015 03:12 PM Re: Cobb, Ruth, Mathewson, Wagner and Johnson

by WAR: top 6: Bonds Mays Aaron Clemens Musial Williams then there is a little drop off to Seaver Henderson Mantle F.Robinson Maddux Schmidt R.Johnson J.Morgan with another drop off to Yaz Carlton Brett P.Martinez Then: Glavine Ryan Carew Rose B.Robinson Bench Ozzie with a final level of Carter Banks Piazza Koufax The top 6 makes sense to me, except i'm not emotionally equipped to vote for Clemens. so for the last 2 slots, it would be between Mantle, Seaver and Rickey. So first, i'll go with our guy. Bonds Mays Aaron Musial Williams Seaver Then for the 7th slot, do i go for Rickey or Mickey? I gotta go with the ex-Met. FINAL BALLOT Bonds Mays Aaron Musial Williams Seaver Henderson ...with Mickey, Frank Robinson and Mike Schmidt rounding out the top 10 for a regular HOF ballot, and Clemens off somewhere, sucking cock for heroin.