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Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

d'Kong76
Dec 15 2015 12:58 PM

Edgy MD wrote:
And the moral degeneracy of Ty Cobb, as unpleasant a character as he might have been, is greatly overstated.

Before we start.. Edgy, can you please define greatly, overstated and
then greatly overstated?

Edgy MD
Dec 15 2015 01:09 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

He's frequently cited as baseball's most textbook example of a loathsome irredeemable person. The game was racist, but he was the racistest. The game was rough, but he was an assassin in cleats. When the case for Rose's induction comes up, an argument is frequently made to the tune of If the despicable Ty Cobb is in the Hall of Fame, how can they keep Rose out?

The biopic of him depicted him as attempting to rape a woman but pathetically failing because he can't achieve an erection. His moral degeneration is symbolized in his physical degeneration, the way we like it. But that incident didn't appear in the rather vicious bio that the film is based on, or any other account. The filmmakers defended it as "something he might have done," which is a justification that is itself reprehensible, from where I sit.

We also like our national sins put in little compartments. The whole institution was racist, but really the racism was on the likes of Hornsby and Cobb. Walter Johnson and Christy Matthewson and Lou Gehrig were good decent men who were better than that. I agree they were better, but the sin should be fairly placed on everybody who participated in it and benefited from it. And not just on an socially awkward rube from Cottonsville, The South. That's just too easy.

Edgy MD
Dec 15 2015 01:10 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

If one were to take the time to document a thousand instances in which Ty Cobb went out of his way to be kind to people, including black people, would this change his image? I fear it would not. No one really knows whether or not J. Edgar Hoover was a homosexual, yet stories of his attending parties in a dress, stories which are not only false but preposterous, have stained the culture, and cannot be bleached out . . . In any case, it isn’t that the stories of Ty Cobb as a violent racist are false, but rather, that there is another Ty Cobb as well, undocumented because he is less dramatic.

In the first edition of this book I wrote an essay about a photograph, a photo of Ty Cobb and Christy Mathewson. Here, I’ll re-print it:



In photographs (make it a point to notice) Ty Cobb is often shown hiding one hand or both, twisting an arm behind his back or burying it in an article of excess clothing. One photograph of him with which I am particularly taken shows him posing with Christy Mathewson in the dugout before the third game of the 1911 World Series. Mathewson, as always, looks poised and confident, staring out toward right field. Cobb is peeking out of the corner of his eye at some unseen distraction — another photographer, probably — but what makes the photograph remarkable is that, to begin with, Cobb is wearing a suit that doesn’t look as if it could possibly have fit any of his relatives. Cobb was a big man (he is usually listed at 6’2?, 180) yet this suit has got to be four sizes too large for him — it is hard to believe that a reputable haberdasher would have let him leave the store with it. He is holding what looks like an expensive overcoat, and he appears to be dragging it on the ground. His hat is jaunty and his smile is decidedly nervous, and he looks frankly a little bit crazy.

There was such a contradiction in that dugout. Cobb was then a five-time American League batting champion, with more or less seven seasons under his belt — and yet he was also a twenty-four-year-old hick from Nowhere, Georgia, a little in awe of Matty, of the photographers, of the crowd. He had no weapons, at that moment, to defend himself against his inadequacies — no spikes, no bat, no glove. He was so crude that he must have felt that whenever they took those things away from him, his shortcomings glowed like hot iron. And whenever he saw them glowing, he got angry. You can see it in his face, I think, that if he could just put on that uniform and go out on the field it would be such a relief to him, out where manners and taste and style were all defined by bases gained and bases lost. And everyone, for a change, would have to apologize to him.

Since then I have noticed several other photographs in which Cobb has the same crazy look on his face. It is not an angry look; it is, rather, a look of acute embarrassment, a look of inadequacy. Ty Cobb’s racism and his anger, I believe, were fueled not by smugness or even resentment, but by an unusually intense fear of his own limitations. No one is more macho than a man who feels inadequate; no one walks straighter than a man who is half drunk. When Ty Cobb felt threatened he lashed out at the world. He felt threatened a lot — but as long as he wasn’t challenged, he was a very nice man.

— Bill James


As it is, someone has taken the time to try to give the other side of the story, or the bigger picture, of Cobb. Whether it will make a difference or — as Bill James says he fears — it won't, time will tell. But I'm going to give it a read when I get a chance.

d'Kong76
Dec 15 2015 01:19 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 15 2015 01:22 PM

Wow! Hit a nerve?

Edgy MD
Dec 15 2015 01:21 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

No. Why do you ask?

You asked a question. I answered.

d'Kong76
Dec 15 2015 01:22 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Because it took you under twelve minutes to post all that.

Edgy MD
Dec 15 2015 01:24 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Mostly just three paragraphs. The Bill James part is a copy-and-paste job.

d'Kong76
Dec 15 2015 01:29 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Edgy MD wrote:
The Bill James part is a copy-and-paste job.

I know, but you whipped it out pretty quick.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 15 2015 01:34 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

That's what she said.

Edgy MD
Dec 15 2015 01:36 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Yeah, I was just gonna leave that handsome baseball on the tee right there.

I've got work to do. So I gotta type fast and get back to the grind.

Anybody who's read A Terrible Beauty (a W.B. Yeats reference for a subtitle!), offseason book reports are encouraged.

Mets Willets Point
Dec 15 2015 01:43 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Heard this on the radio a while back: http://onlyagame.wbur.org/2015/05/16/ty ... s-leerhsen. It's an interview with the author of the book Edgy cites. Basic gist is that Cobb was a man of his time (racist, violent) but not as awful as he's made out to be and in some instances better than his contemporaries.

d'Kong76
Dec 15 2015 01:56 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

I too don't have time to explore right now, but word you me I'm not
going to just sweep decades of Ty Cobb was a horrible horrible man
under the rug because we like to compartmentalize our national sins.

As for awful and better than his contemporaries, I really don't see how
something like that is measured a century later. I haven't listened to
the link.

Frayed Knot
Dec 15 2015 02:34 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Anybody who's read A Terrible Beauty (a W.B. Yeats reference for a subtitle!), offseason book reports are encouraged.


From my (soon to be released) end of year book summary:

**** TY COBB: A Terrible Beauty — Charles Leerhsen (2015)
Although the author claims he didn’t set out to write revisionist history, he pretty much does exactly that as many of the things modern day baseball fans “know” about Cobb get debunked.
A demonized angel? … Hardly. But a dirty, spike-sharpening racist who was hated by the rest of baseball? … the facts, as he finds them, say otherwise.



Al Stump, this author claims, was a no talent hack whose chief asset was that he could churn out pages faster than just about anyone to the delight of his publishers.
So that even though Stump got to TWICE write a Cobb biography -- the first, a serialized account under Cobb's thumb of final refusal, and then a second time long after Cobb's death so he could "set the record straight" -- he didn't come close to getting right either time. It was Stump's second bio that served as the source material for the Tommy Lee Jones movie which, as Edgy mentions, went ahead and made up even more things about him above and beyond what Stump conjured up.

RealityChuck
Dec 15 2015 05:50 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

I've always admired Cobb and read both of Stump's biographies. I also saw the movie (with writer/director Ron Shelton talking about it afterwards).

Cobb was certainly racist, and coming from the South, it was far stronger than many northerners. Also, Cobb came out in favor of integration of baseball in the 50s, so he had a change of heart and came out in favor of integration and even named Roy Campanella and Willie Mays as some of the best he'd ever seen.

As for making up things, I fact checked several items in the first biography and they matched exactly what Cobb said. And Stump was clearly a first-class writer -- his account of Cobb's trip down the mountain to Las Vegas was named to the Best Sports Writing of the Year anthology.

Cobb denied sharpening spikes, saying a bunch of other Tigers put files to their spikes as another team walked by. He was condemned for spiking Home Run Baker, but pointed out that Baker didn't come out of the game and played the next few games, too (I confirmed this the old fashioned way -- by microfiche).

He did attack the disabled guy in the stands, but he had no idea he was disabled, and his teammates supported him, saying he had been called something no southern man would ever stand for.* His team even went on strike to protest his suspension and only went back when Cobb told them not to endanger their careers. So it's pretty clear he was respected by his teammates.

James' analysis is spot on. It was clear from the biography that Cobb was made to feel out of place from the start and fought to show that he belonged.

It sounds like Leehrson is attacking a straw man -- taking the rumors that Cobb expressly denied in the first biography and implying that Stump had something to spread them, when the first book worked hard to debunk them.


*It seems the epithet was "half-nigger," which especially infuriated Cobb because it implied his mother slept with a Black man.

d'Kong76
Dec 15 2015 06:54 PM
Re: Ty Cobb, Pillar of Baseball Society

You guys win, I changed the thread title.

MFS62
Dec 15 2015 10:14 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Now, what do we know about Cap Anson and whether or not it is true?
He is also mentioned when talking about racism.

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-sport ... l-of-fame/

Later

Frayed Knot
Dec 16 2015 07:43 AM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

I think that Anson example is part of the problem/argument about Cobb: it's not that Ty should now be considered the most socially enlightened person ever to play the game, but that he wasn't particularly racist or anti-social for his era and yet is held up as the example as such probably 90+% of the time.

RealityChuck
Dec 16 2015 09:30 AM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

MFS62 wrote:
Now, what do we know about Cap Anson and whether or not it is true?
He is also mentioned when talking about racism.

http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-sport ... l-of-fame/

Later
Oh, it's pretty clear that Anson refused to play against the Walker Brothers, thus starting the MLB color line. But I doubt his feelings about race were all that different from most of the players in that era. Heck, even abolitionists thought that Blacks were inferior (but that it was wrong to keep them as slaves).

As for another example, Kenesaw Mountain Landis refused to break the color line while commissioner (not surprising for someone named for a Civil War battle). It wasn't until he died and Happy Chandler took over that it was allowed.

Cobb had an abrasive public persona, so bad legends stuck to him.

d'Kong76
Dec 16 2015 09:40 AM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

I'm still having problems with greatly overstated. I got that OCD
thing sometimes. Seems like there's a small section of baseball
research enthusiasts that want to clear the cracker's reputation
or something. Having trouble buying it.

Edgy MD
Dec 16 2015 10:06 AM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

I'd be happy to withdraw "greatly," but my point remains that he shouldn't constantly be held up as demonstrably the worst character in the Hall of Fame, or the worst in baseball history, which he almst always is when the question of inducting Rose or admitted juicers comes up. This strikes me as a great overstatement. I'm sure a lot of folks brandishing his name as baseball's ultimate pariah never heard of Hal Chase. Or even Cap Anson.

Cobb was the best player in an ugly era, and so became a lightning rod for everything that was wrong with it. I'll also suggest John McGraw's hatefulness was probably overdrawn. People writing narratives need heroes and villains. But the stories have him killing up to three people (!) and the evidence just doesn't support that. That sounds like some great overstatement there, doesn't it?

Measured against the standard of the time, I certainly have a hard time saying that he was worse than Roger Clemens — who has a demonstrably stronger rape rap hanging over his head, if you ask me.

Centerfield
Dec 16 2015 10:31 AM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Edgy MD wrote:
I'd be happy to withdraw "greatly," but my point remains that he shouldn't constantly be held up as demonstrably the worst character in the Hall of Fame, or the worst in baseball history, which he almst always is when the question of inducting Rose or admitted juicers comes up. This strikes me as a great overstatement. I'm sure a lot of folks brandishing his name as baseball's ultimate pariah never heard of Hal Chase. Or even Cap Anson.

Cobb was the best player in an ugly era, and so became a lightning rod for everything that was wrong with it. I'll also suggest John McGraw's hatefulness was probably overdrawn. People writing narratives need heroes and villains. But the stories have him killing up to three people (!) and the evidence just doesn't support that. That sounds like some great overstatement there, doesn't it?

Measured against the standard of the time, I certainly have a hard time saying that he was worse than Roger Clemens — who has a demonstrably stronger rape rap hanging over his head, if you ask me.


Point well taken about heros and villains. I think that journalism/storytelling during that era lended itself to hyperbole.

Tangentially, I submit that "not any worse than Roger Clemens" is a pretty low bar.

Let's also remember that Shoeless Joe refused to allow him to come play on Kevin Costner's field. I think that has to enter into the equation.

dinosaur jesus
Dec 16 2015 10:50 AM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Centerfield wrote:

Let's also remember that Shoeless Joe refused to allow him to come play on Kevin Costner's field. I think that has to enter into the equation.


Oh, but that was the righthanded Joe Jackson, who was a hell of a guy (and always wore shoes). He's had to take the rap all these years for what the lefthanded Shoeless Joe did, and it's not fair. He also never abused little Michael or sang "Steppin' Out."

I remember liking the Al Stump biography, but it's been a while. His magazine piece on Cobb was terrific--driving around with that crazy, dying old man. I imagine that experience colored his view of what the young Cobb was like. The movie was shit. Tommy Lee Jones was all wrong, and Shelton didn't care at all about the details. Cobb getting shut out of the party in Rogers Hornsby's room? If there was one player that everyone hated, it was Hornsby, not Cobb.

I definitely want to read the new biography.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 16 2015 11:00 AM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

I agree about how bad the movie Cobb was. It was about as bad a baseball movie as I've ever seen.

Mets Willets Point
Dec 16 2015 02:06 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

I liked Robert Wuhl though. I thought he was a funny stand-up comedian. I wonder whatever happened to him.

RealityChuck
Dec 16 2015 04:25 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

Edgy MD wrote:
I'll also suggest John McGraw's hatefulness was probably overdrawn.


Note that McGraw was perfectly willing to use Black players, and tried a couple of schemes to get them onto his teams, but couldn't get them past the bigots. After he died, his widow found a list of Black players that he had wanted to sign.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 16 2015 09:50 PM
Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'

If I understand our collective meaning here, it's not that anyone here is saying Cobb isn't an asshole; it's just that his is a mitigable assholishness.

And, like Ben hinted, Shoeless Joe didn't leave out Cobb. Jersey-accented, righty-batting Henry Hill did. #dbsweeneyistheonetrueshoelessjoe