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Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored'
d'Kong76 Dec 15 2015 12:58 PM |
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Before we start.. Edgy, can you please define greatly, overstated and then greatly overstated?
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2015 01:09 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
He's frequently cited as baseball's most textbook example of a loathsome irredeemable person. The game was racist, but he was the racistest. The game was rough, but he was an assassin in cleats. When the case for Rose's induction comes up, an argument is frequently made to the tune of If the despicable Ty Cobb is in the Hall of Fame, how can they keep Rose out?
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2015 01:10 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
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As it is, someone has taken the time to try to give the other side of the story, or the bigger picture, of Cobb. Whether it will make a difference or — as Bill James says he fears — it won't, time will tell. But I'm going to give it a read when I get a chance.
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d'Kong76 Dec 15 2015 01:19 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 15 2015 01:22 PM |
Wow! Hit a nerve?
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2015 01:21 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
No. Why do you ask?
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d'Kong76 Dec 15 2015 01:22 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
Because it took you under twelve minutes to post all that.
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2015 01:24 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
Mostly just three paragraphs. The Bill James part is a copy-and-paste job.
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d'Kong76 Dec 15 2015 01:29 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
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I know, but you whipped it out pretty quick.
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Benjamin Grimm Dec 15 2015 01:34 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
That's what she said.
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Edgy MD Dec 15 2015 01:36 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
Yeah, I was just gonna leave that handsome baseball on the tee right there.
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Mets Willets Point Dec 15 2015 01:43 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
Heard this on the radio a while back: http://onlyagame.wbur.org/2015/05/16/ty ... s-leerhsen. It's an interview with the author of the book Edgy cites. Basic gist is that Cobb was a man of his time (racist, violent) but not as awful as he's made out to be and in some instances better than his contemporaries.
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d'Kong76 Dec 15 2015 01:56 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
I too don't have time to explore right now, but word you me I'm not
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Frayed Knot Dec 15 2015 02:34 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
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From my (soon to be released) end of year book summary: **** TY COBB: A Terrible Beauty — Charles Leerhsen (2015) Although the author claims he didn’t set out to write revisionist history, he pretty much does exactly that as many of the things modern day baseball fans “know” about Cobb get debunked. A demonized angel? … Hardly. But a dirty, spike-sharpening racist who was hated by the rest of baseball? … the facts, as he finds them, say otherwise. Al Stump, this author claims, was a no talent hack whose chief asset was that he could churn out pages faster than just about anyone to the delight of his publishers. So that even though Stump got to TWICE write a Cobb biography -- the first, a serialized account under Cobb's thumb of final refusal, and then a second time long after Cobb's death so he could "set the record straight" -- he didn't come close to getting right either time. It was Stump's second bio that served as the source material for the Tommy Lee Jones movie which, as Edgy mentions, went ahead and made up even more things about him above and beyond what Stump conjured up.
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RealityChuck Dec 15 2015 05:50 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
I've always admired Cobb and read both of Stump's biographies. I also saw the movie (with writer/director Ron Shelton talking about it afterwards).
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d'Kong76 Dec 15 2015 06:54 PM Re: Ty Cobb, Pillar of Baseball Society |
You guys win, I changed the thread title.
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MFS62 Dec 15 2015 10:14 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
Now, what do we know about Cap Anson and whether or not it is true?
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Frayed Knot Dec 16 2015 07:43 AM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
I think that Anson example is part of the problem/argument about Cobb: it's not that Ty should now be considered the most socially enlightened person ever to play the game, but that he wasn't particularly racist or anti-social for his era and yet is held up as the example as such probably 90+% of the time.
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RealityChuck Dec 16 2015 09:30 AM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
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As for another example, Kenesaw Mountain Landis refused to break the color line while commissioner (not surprising for someone named for a Civil War battle). It wasn't until he died and Happy Chandler took over that it was allowed. Cobb had an abrasive public persona, so bad legends stuck to him.
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d'Kong76 Dec 16 2015 09:40 AM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
I'm still having problems with greatly overstated. I got that OCD
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Edgy MD Dec 16 2015 10:06 AM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
I'd be happy to withdraw "greatly," but my point remains that he shouldn't constantly be held up as demonstrably the worst character in the Hall of Fame, or the worst in baseball history, which he almst always is when the question of inducting Rose or admitted juicers comes up. This strikes me as a great overstatement. I'm sure a lot of folks brandishing his name as baseball's ultimate pariah never heard of Hal Chase. Or even Cap Anson.
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Centerfield Dec 16 2015 10:31 AM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
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Point well taken about heros and villains. I think that journalism/storytelling during that era lended itself to hyperbole. Tangentially, I submit that "not any worse than Roger Clemens" is a pretty low bar. Let's also remember that Shoeless Joe refused to allow him to come play on Kevin Costner's field. I think that has to enter into the equation.
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dinosaur jesus Dec 16 2015 10:50 AM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
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Oh, but that was the righthanded Joe Jackson, who was a hell of a guy (and always wore shoes). He's had to take the rap all these years for what the lefthanded Shoeless Joe did, and it's not fair. He also never abused little Michael or sang "Steppin' Out." I remember liking the Al Stump biography, but it's been a while. His magazine piece on Cobb was terrific--driving around with that crazy, dying old man. I imagine that experience colored his view of what the young Cobb was like. The movie was shit. Tommy Lee Jones was all wrong, and Shelton didn't care at all about the details. Cobb getting shut out of the party in Rogers Hornsby's room? If there was one player that everyone hated, it was Hornsby, not Cobb. I definitely want to read the new biography.
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Benjamin Grimm Dec 16 2015 11:00 AM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
I agree about how bad the movie Cobb was. It was about as bad a baseball movie as I've ever seen.
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Mets Willets Point Dec 16 2015 02:06 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
I liked Robert Wuhl though. I thought he was a funny stand-up comedian. I wonder whatever happened to him.
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RealityChuck Dec 16 2015 04:25 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
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Note that McGraw was perfectly willing to use Black players, and tried a couple of schemes to get them onto his teams, but couldn't get them past the bigots. After he died, his widow found a list of Black players that he had wanted to sign.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 16 2015 09:50 PM Re: Ty Cobbs Moral Degeneracy Explored' |
If I understand our collective meaning here, it's not that anyone here is saying Cobb isn't an asshole; it's just that his is a mitigable assholishness.
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