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Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 22 2015 05:03 PM

Rosenthal: Mets "close to deal."

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2015 05:07 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Would this mean they'd no longer be interested in Span? Or might they sign both of these guys?

Edgy MD Dec 22 2015 05:08 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Always seemed to me like some letters had fallen off his jersey, and he just got stuck with that name.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 22 2015 05:10 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Not particularly strong against righties, and not terribly experienced (or good) in center field. Even when we're shopping bargain-aisle, we're going bottom shelf. Hell, I'd rather have Billy Princeton, I think, and I'd rather not have Billy Princeton.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 22 2015 05:11 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 22 2015 05:15 PM

I think they must see De Aza as comparable in "skills" -- lefty bat to hit RH pitching/defense etc., but would come cheaper in $$ and years and is less likely to miss half a year with a hip injury. I only know De Aza because one year my fantasy team sucked (well most years it does) but DeAza was racking up ABs for the White Sox and was available and became my new guy. Definitely lacking in the Sex Appeal department, and a bit of a hot potato since the White Sox (Os, Red Sox, Giants, maybe others?)

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2015 05:12 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Buster Olney says one year, $4.5 million for De Aza.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 22 2015 05:14 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Is that before or after the coupon code and Gap Cash?

Edgy MD Dec 22 2015 05:30 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Is Kirk worth DFA'ing for this guy? Because it's him or Campbell. And waxing Campbell, while certainly preferable, leaves us really lefty-heavy.

Centerfield Dec 22 2015 05:33 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Who's left? Well there's De Aza. Is he a good hitter? Not really. Is he a good fielder? Not really. Does he play centerfield? Not really. I mean, he can in a pinch. Ok. Sounds good. Everyone good? Ok. Let's get him.

Edgy MD Dec 22 2015 05:34 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

•Jon Heyman: "Plan is to share CF with Lagares" •Mike Puma: "Mets had concerns about Span's health and signability. Didn't want to go multiple years with Span or Parra" •Joel Sherman: "Signing of De Aza is another blow to the notion of Mets bringing back Cespedes" The Mets beat, everybody.

Centerfield Dec 22 2015 05:43 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Would this mean they'd no longer be interested in Span? Or might they sign both of these guys? I would guess this effectively ends our pursuit of Span, Cespedes, Parra etc. I think we are just looking at a Ryan Raburn type to round out our post-season. Jesus. I remember being worried in November that the Mets would skimp out and sign someone like Colby Rasmus in lieu of Cespedes.

Frayed Knot Dec 22 2015 05:46 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Can we make him use a lower case D on his uniform? Seems like it would be bad for team morale if he didn't.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 22 2015 05:49 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: Is Kirk worth DFA'ing for this guy? Because it's him or Campbell. And waxing Campbell, while certainly preferable, leaves us really lefty-heavy. I like Kirk as much as anyone, maybe more, but he's a hard thing to have to rely on and the Mets already demonstrated once they had the nads to let him go.

Ceetar Dec 22 2015 05:59 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Is Kirk worth DFA'ing for this guy? Because it's him or Campbell. And waxing Campbell, while certainly preferable, leaves us really lefty-heavy. I like Kirk as much as anyone, maybe more, but he's a hard thing to have to rely on and the Mets already demonstrated once they had the nads to let him go. Kirk _could_ outperform him, but De Aza has 4 years of being about league-averagish with the bat and is probably more reliable. I don't really think the Mets needed another lefty though. 4.5 isn't really much though. Okay in a vacuum but probably not great if they don't do anything else out there. Won't really know what type of use he gets until he actually starts getting used. B.S. statements in December have little to do with how Terry actually ends up using guys in April.

Edgy MD Dec 22 2015 06:01 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I think he'll be used more if he performs well, and less if he performs poorly. And gets Mayberried if he goes a 2-for-June or something like.

TransMonk Dec 22 2015 06:03 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I wasn't expecting as much as CF from Freddy and the boys this winter...but De Aza? Color me unimpressed.

themetfairy Dec 22 2015 06:17 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Frayed Knot wrote: Can we make him use a lower case D on his uniform? Seems like it would be bad for team morale if he didn't. I know - I was thinking that the upper case D will just look wrong at this point.

Lefty Specialist Dec 22 2015 06:33 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Can't wait for the Post headline when he makes a critical error: Pain in DeAza

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 22 2015 06:50 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

You can't spell Amazin without AZA

d'Kong76 Dec 22 2015 07:01 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Maybe they can coax Cuddy out of retirement in July.

Centerfield Dec 22 2015 07:04 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

All kidding aside, I'm trying to see positives here. Ok numbers against lefties last year. Certainly beats going 3 years, 27 million for Gerardo Parra. And looks to be better than Will Venable. He's cheap. Not much commitment. Maybe it's such a small monetary commitment it allows another OF move? Or maybe more money for the bullpen? I don't know. This move makes me sad.

bmfc1 Dec 22 2015 07:17 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

A step up from Kirk. Could be part of a good platoon because of his splits but he has a negative defensive WAR. BUT not as good as Yo or Span. A decent, cheap option with emphasis on the cheap.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 22 2015 07:18 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

He's better than Venable, except at running and catching the ball at the position for which he's been signed. Similarly, he's a step up from Kirk... with the bat. Probably.

Centerfield Dec 22 2015 07:20 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: He's better than Venable, except at running and catching the ball at the position for which he's been signed. Similarly, he's a step up from Kirk... with the bat. Probably. You know, I never took into account Venable's defense. We're bringing up Kirk. You'd have to think Nimmo's name gets thrown into the mix before the year is out.

Frayed Knot Dec 22 2015 08:51 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I'd be lying if I claimed to have any first hand knowledge of De Aza A look at the numbers shows a better split vs RHPs for his career, what looks like some speed, and has played more CF in his time than anywhere else. I have a healthy distrust of defensive numbers so I'm going to hold off on an opinion there until I see him over some span of time. He was decent in the years he was a more or less full-time starter (2012-14 w/ChiSox -- .266/.329/.401) and I tend to have hope for guys with some prime left (32 in April) moving from full time to platoon roles. I know he drew some praise in Boston last for helping out their OF situation (bouncing mostly between LF & RF) after they picked him up last June from Baltimore. Of course they dealt him away again three months later but I think that says more about the ups and downs of the Sox last year than it does about him. Good OBA numbers in both Boston & SF last year [.347 & .387] but that's a smallish sample [250 PA] so probably shouldn't be looked at as sustainable - although it's not like his career norm of .331 is bad Wouldn't have to do too much to surpass Pena and become the Mets' best Alejandro ever.

Nymr83 Dec 22 2015 08:56 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

i like the deal as a stand alone proposition, if not for what it says about the Mets' willingness to spend bigger on other pieces. 31 years old, ~100 OPS+, can play all 3 outfield spots even if some say the CF is below par, i'm happy to sign that kind of guy to a fairly cheap 1 year deal. i'm less happy that he is viewed as the dominant half of a starting platoon, but if Lagares bounces back to his 2014 form or Nimmo turns it on De Aza can be relegated to the 4th outfielder role he is very well suited for.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 22 2015 09:03 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Let's graft memories of experiencing De Aza's career to our brains. Who could forget his walkoff triple against the yankees? [youtube:3s7imdfv]ZYhdEIGRuP4[/youtube:3s7imdfv] You know who's gonna love this move? Addison Reed, that's who! [youtube:3s7imdfv]dPTYsPnW8KQ[/youtube:3s7imdfv] You know this move will sell seats in the Mo Zone! Look out, Jeremy Hefner! [youtube:3s7imdfv]s_qGGTjHT1w[/youtube:3s7imdfv]

Edgy MD Dec 22 2015 09:21 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Who could forget his walkoff triple against the yankees? A walkoff triple. That's hard to do! The implication is that he reached third before the runner ahead of him scored. John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: You know who's gonna love this move? Addison Reed, that's who! Jon Niese must be feeling a little stupid right now.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2015 09:35 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Only one Met has ever had a walk-off triple, Cleon Jones on September 10, 1970. The Mets have lost twice on walk-off triples: Lee May of the Reds on June 24, 1968 and Jack Clark of the Giants on June 19, 1980.

Edgy MD Dec 22 2015 09:35 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Is Kirk worth DFA'ing for this guy? Because it's him or Campbell. And waxing Campbell, while certainly preferable, leaves us really lefty-heavy. I like Kirk as much as anyone, maybe more, but he's a hard thing to have to rely on and the Mets already demonstrated once they had the nads to let him go. It'll probably be Ceciliani who gets dropped initially anyhow. Barring injuries, though, Nieuwenhuis will be set up to find himself in a pinch come opening day.

Centerfield Dec 22 2015 10:37 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

More expensive than originally reported. $5.75. Incentives can take it up to $ 7 million.

Ashie62 Dec 22 2015 11:01 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Eliminates a signing of Cespedes or another big bat. Shite.

Mex17 Dec 22 2015 11:54 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Centerfield wrote: More expensive than originally reported. $5.75. Incentives can take it up to $ 7 million. Is there a link for this?

TransMonk Dec 22 2015 11:57 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Mex17 Dec 23 2015 12:58 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I know that Heyman said "platoon" but leading up to this I have been hearing the word "compliment" more often when people in the media have been talking about what the Mets have in mind in relation to Lagares for whichever lefty bat they were going to get for the outfield. In a strict lefty-righty platoon, the lefty is going to get way more playing time than the righty. I personally do not think that they are going to keep Lagares's glove on the bench that much if the drop-off to De Aza is that pronounced. De Aza will play CF against really tough rightys and when Lagares needs rest, but he can also be a lefty pinch hitter off the bench and can spell Conforto in LF too so that the kid is not so overwhelmed in his first full season in the bigs. He can even spell Granderson in RF as well so as to maximize Grandy's performance in his age-35 year. Lagares's best season (2014) had him up to the plate overall 416 times. De Aza's 2015 splits had him up against rightys 281 times. My guess is that TC has those AB numbers in mind as a goal for each player.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 02:02 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I concur that folks saying platoon should probably be saying complement.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 03:17 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 23 2015 04:40 AM

One nice aspect of this deal is that the media isfinally giving it to the Wilpons. John Harper called them out on their own station. https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/baseball-n ... /160283260 Craig Calcaterra called them out on NBC. http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2015/12/22/the ... portunity/ The Mets baseball operations side and Mets fans are paying for Wilpon and Katz’s greed, stupidity and recklessness. Nice. Mike Vaccarro at the Post: http://nypost.com/2015/12/22/world-seri ... hing-pass/ Because once you were there — stuffing their coffers with ticket sales, parking fees and merchandise riches — then they’d repay the favor. Then they’d start acting the part again. Just wait. On Tuesday afternoon, this is what the men who own the Mets gave you, not only for grinding through those unwatchable years from 2009-14, but for responding in force in 2015 when the skies brightened at Citi Field and the Mets gave you a summer and autumn out of your craziest fantasies, when you sold out seven home playoff games, and bought enough stuff that when you walk around the city these days, Mets gear is practically a parochial school uniform now. They gave you Alejandro De Aza. Poor De Aza. I hope he doesn't become the symbol of the Wilpons' failures this winter. The way Cuddyer became the poster boy for last winter. But maybe this move is what it took for everyone to realize how awful the Wilpons are.

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 03:28 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

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Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 03:29 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

That NBC story is just piggybacking on Megdal.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 03:34 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: That NBC story is just piggybacking on Megdal. Sure. But he's taking Megdal's work, crediting him, and then opening him up to a bigger, national audience.

MFS62 Dec 23 2015 04:29 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Sort of like unbuttered popcorn. OK, I guess. My gut says it could have been better. I'm just whelmed. Later

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 04:38 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Ken Rosenthal joins the party: http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/ken- ... der-122215 The Mets’ commitments for 2016 are about $100.5 million for 16 players, including arbitration projections from MLBTradeRumors.com. Nine others -- including starting pitchers Jacob de Grom, Noah Syndergaard and Steven Matz, catcher Travis d’Arnaud and left fielder Michael Conforto -- figure to be at the $507,500 minimum salary or slightly above it. So, while general manager Sandy Alderson said recently that the payroll will be at “a higher level,” the best guess at the moment is not much higher. Hey look! He's playing coked up accountant!

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 04:45 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: That NBC story is just piggybacking on Megdal. Good. No. Great. Grrrrrrrrreat! Like Tony the Tiger would've said it. I know how repetitive Megdal must seem to many here, but it'd be fine with me if Megdal, instead of rehashing essentially the same Mets and Madoff story twice a month, regurgitated that same story twice a day. Megdal probably isn't effective here because this forum is, for the most part, comprised of hard-core, extremely knowledgeable Mets fans who know all this. But you'd be surprised how many Mets fans there are out there that are sorta clueless about the front office's escapades and dire financial situation. And the situation is so outrageous, so fucking scandalous, with MLB looking the other way and whitewashing the whole Mets/Madoff affair, insulting every knowledgeable Mets fan along the way by refusing to acknowledge that anything is wrong, that the story should be told as often as possible. I never get bored of reading these pieces. It's an outlet for my frustrations with the owners. Maybe if the story is repeated ad nauseum, then, just maybe, MLB might bow to the extreme pressure that should be put on it but isn't, to finally give this ownership group the boot that it deserves.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 05:04 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Again, it's not that he's redundant. It's that he's a fake journalist playing at professionalism. That he has had the Mets owners in his crosshairs has no bearing on that one way or another. It's given him a brand that has elevated his profile in a way that his professional skills could not. It is what it is. It's 2015, and the world has made it clear that they'd rather read a fake journalist that confirms their opinions than a real one that deals responsibly in facts. But I sure wish Mets fans didn't.

Gwreck Dec 23 2015 05:24 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

You can complain about Megdal all you want but let's not pretend the facts aren't there. The Mets ownership is not spending money commensurate with their market position. That is a fact.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 05:29 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I don't want to complain about Megdal. I'm responding to what was written. With regard to payroll and market position, I haven't asserted otherwise. Also a fact!

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 05:34 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: It's that he's a fake journalist playing at professionalism. Could you clarify this? I'm not sure what you mean by this. It sure does sound like a mouthful, though.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 05:48 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

What's to clarify? He has an agenda and he pretends his opinions are facts that he's uncovered when they aren't. I'm embarrassed. It's middle school garbage. And he's winning. For all the wrong reasons. We've been down this road enough. It usually goes bad around here.

Vic Sage Dec 23 2015 02:15 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

question: Cespedes or Upton? answer: de Aza Ladies and gentlemen, your New York Mets. Little did i know that my prediction of Parra was OPTIMISTIC. Fuck you, too, Fred. Is it too late to abort Jeffy?

metsmarathon Dec 23 2015 02:23 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

the pretty much unanimous opinion on the MLBradio station on the satellites is that this is a terrible, and terribly offensive signing if it indeed marks the culmination of the metly off season free agency activity. I'm holding out unrealistic hope that I will not be channeling µmmL's hulk-rage as spring approaches.

86-Dreamer Dec 23 2015 02:39 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I've pivoted from delusional thoughts of a Cespedes return to dreams of Duda traded and Davis signed.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 02:44 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: What's to clarify? He has an agenda and he pretends his opinions are facts that he's uncovered when they aren't. I'm embarrassed. It's middle school garbage. And he's winning. For all the wrong reasons. We've been down this road enough. It usually goes bad around here. What specifically do you think he's trying to pass off as fact that is not true?

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 02:50 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I wonder if Howard reads this forum. I thought he registered sometime ago but I quickly looked at poster list and don't see a handle. Vic Sage wrote: Fuck you, too, Fred. Is it too late to abort Jeffy? Ah! Fuck this and fuck that Fuck it all tha fuck out of the fucking brat She don't wanna a baby that looks like that I don't wanna a baby that looks like that

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 02:57 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Centerfield wrote: Edgy MD wrote: What's to clarify? He has an agenda and he pretends his opinions are facts that he's uncovered when they aren't. I'm embarrassed. It's middle school garbage. And he's winning. For all the wrong reasons. We've been down this road enough. It usually goes bad around here. What specifically do you think he's trying to pass off as fact that is not true? according to him the Mets would be buried under so much debt that creditors would demand they sell the team by 2015 or so when 'loans come due' and the situation only gets better and better for the Wilpons. There is zero. ZERO. chance that the Wilpons sell by anything other than their own volition. Maybe 0.000001% in some unforeseen disaster, but even then I'd bet they're insured and protected and would actually make out. You can rant against them all you want, but it's just boring. nothing is going to change. You can joke about PR disasters all you for when they talk, or when they don't talk, or they say what you don't want, or they avoid saying what you want. But ultimately it doesn't matter. They are the owners of the team. They always will be. The team went to the World Series and are favorites to make the playoffs again, ultimately that's what I watch baseball for. The manager gets credit for the team when it wins. The GM gets credit when seemingly bad signings or trades work out. And the owners ultimately get credit when the franchise continues to win. If the Mets continue to win, even with only a moderately higher payroll and nab a title during this decade? You're going to be reading Wilpon redemption stories. Prepare yourself. There is also ZERO indication that this De Aza signing is going to prevent them from paying Cespedes if his contract falls into a generally acceptable range (which 6/130 is probably not). This stuff is just so tedious, and it's a knee-jerk reaction to a bit signing and if you believe 'unnamed sources' about his role on the team you clearly haven't been paying attention because that's not how it works. If he doesn't hit, he's not going to be playing very much.

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 03:07 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Ceetar wrote: You can rant against them all you want, but it's just boring. nothing is going to change. Facts are not boring, facts are fun! They suck ass and are cheaping us out again and lied about it again. Fact!

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 03:15 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceetar wrote: You can rant against them all you want, but it's just boring. nothing is going to change. Facts are not boring, facts are fun! They suck ass and are cheaping us out again and lied about it again. Fact! Depends which anonymous sources you believe of course, but sure. You can pretty much find one of those to fit most narratives.

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 03:30 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Just snap, please. Sandy Alderson isn't an anonymous source. He's the horses mouth and said he's not financially constrained. A horse is a horse of course of course and no one can talk to a horse of course.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 03:39 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Centerfield wrote: Edgy MD wrote: What's to clarify? He has an agenda and he pretends his opinions are facts that he's uncovered when they aren't. I'm embarrassed. It's middle school garbage. And he's winning. For all the wrong reasons. We've been down this road enough. It usually goes bad around here. What specifically do you think he's trying to pass off as fact that is not true? I don't have time to tear down, blow-by-blow, his opinion-stated-as-fact act. You've said as much, yourself. I'll just go with, "Fred Wilpon, in what was his most recent press conference back in February 2013, happily acknowledged having diverted revenue toward both corporate and family debt." The article he links to says nothing of the sort. Even under the most tortured reading, it's just not there. You have to be religiously committed to that conclusion to glean it from that article. Howard never even asserted this until recent months, so it's absurd that he's now claiming we've all had the smoking gun since February 2013. But now he's asserted it so much that he simply believes it has been established through repetition to be true. It may well BE true that the Wilpon family is withdrawing money from the organization to pay for personal debts, but he certainly hasn't established anything like this with the facts he's assembled, and that article sure isn't any proof. But now it's all over the internet, being asserted as a matter of fact. That's just one of the many facts he casually fudges. If that's what people want, it's what they want. I think it's embarrassing to see reposted here.

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 03:47 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

d'Kong76 wrote: Just snap, please. Sandy Alderson isn't an anonymous source. He's the horses mouth and said he's not financially constrained. A horse is a horse of course of course and no one can talk to a horse of course. nothing Sandy says publicly should be taken at face value. It's ALL spin. in fact, all of it is spin. First clue is that of course he's financially constrained, as everybody is. even the Dodgers are making certain decisions with finances in mind.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 04:02 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: I'll just go with, "Fred Wilpon, in what was his most recent press conference back in February 2013, happily acknowledged having diverted revenue toward both corporate and family debt." The article he links to says nothing of the sort. Even under the most tortured reading, it's just not there. You have to be religiously committed to that conclusion to glean it from that article. I don't know Edgy. I think Andy Martino in that article is suggesting that this was the case. Wilpon also provided a new explanation for the Mets’ austerity over the past several years, saying that the payroll contracted as ownership paid down debt. “That’s what made us tight,” Wilpon, 76, said. “We were still getting revenues, lots of revenues, but those revenues were going to pay off debt. That’s done.” More. Given all those factors, Wilpon was asked, was Madoff even the primary reason for the trimming of payroll? “I think there is a balance there,” he said. “It wasn’t, as people have written, the reason. There was a balance there because we had to make sure that the banks got paid off all of the debt. I mean, that's as close to an admission as you are going to get no? I don't think he was "happily acknowledging" it as Megdal writes, but I think that Megdal's conclusion is a fairly reasonable one.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 04:08 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

You really think there's a single admission in there that he has withdrawn money from the Mets organization to pay off personal debt?

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 04:13 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

That article says none of those things. It's talking about personal and Sterling debt and revenues, not Mets revenues. The Mets revenues were down, they were losing money. He's talking about operating the team at a loss, and not being able to do that because of debt/Madoff, etc. The fan quote supports what I've been saying all along, that the Mets payroll was directly linked to Mets (not SNY,etc ) revenue. That's gone up, though no one's released the 2016 presale numbers that I've seen, but they're not obligated to immediately max out in December. Yes, we'd all like them to put the pedal down and nab the big guy, but there ARE legitimate baseball reasons to not sign Heyward or Cespedes and it's certainly not a situation where failing to sign them puts the Mets in a tight spot playoffs wise. The risk/reward balance there isn't that great.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 04:16 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

You really think there's a single admission in there that he has withdrawn money from the Mets organization to pay off personal debt? Personal as in Fred Wilpon? I don't know. Personal as in Wilpon Family/Sterling Equities? I think so. This was the party line about Madoff before: Jeff Wilpon in 2008: "The individual partners lost some money at Madoff. But it doesn't affect the Mets. It doesn't affect the Citi Field project. It doesn't affect (team-owned television network) SNY or any of our operating businesses. How is that possible? We have other money. Just because you guys don't know how much money we have, we have other money and other funds outside of (the Mets). It's called diversification." If that were actually the case, when asked about Madoff, you'd expect Fred to answer similarly. You heard what Jeff said. Madoff has nothing to do with the Mets. It was not a factor. Zero. The Mets payroll is completely independent of our other holdings. But that's not what he said. He said: “I think there is a balance there. It wasn’t, as people have written, the reason. There was a balance there because we had to make sure that the banks got paid off all of the debt." Sounds like an admission to me. And I think it is reasonable for Megdal, or anyone else, to think so.

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 04:20 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Ceetar wrote: First clue is that of course he's financially constrained, as everybody is. even the Dodgers are making certain decisions with finances in mind. Please, everyone should be as financially constrained as the Magic Money Machine. Funny you pick LA, a team with triple the Mets payroll. (slight exaggeration for effect)

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 04:29 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Anyway, the larger point is that Megdal, Harper, Calceterra, Rosenthal, are all calling out the Wilpons for their inability (or unwillingness) to spend. They join Michael Powell, Kevin Kernan, and others who started calling them out last week. I view this as a good thing. The biggest obstacle the Mets have to winning it all is not the offense, or the bullpen. It's the owners. And it will continue to be so. Megdal, imperfect as he may be (and I don't agree with the bad Ponzi scheme comparison), is an agent of good for us right now. He is painting a picture of the Wilpons that may force them to act differently, or perhaps force MLB to get involved. Which would be a freakin' home run for us. And if it does nothing but shame the Wilpons further, than so be it. They are actively contributing to my misery. If something helps make them miserable (and doesn't hurt the Mets) then I'll gladly rally around it.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 04:31 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

But that's not what he said. He said: “I think there is a balance there. It wasn’t, as people have written, the reason. There was a balance there because we had to make sure that the banks got paid off all of the debt." Thank you. I assure you that you don't have to keep bolding things for me. I could read it 100 times. "... [T]he banks got paid off all of the debt" does not, by definition, equal "I've used/I'm using Mets revenues to cover my personal debt." It would be astounding for him to admit such a thing. It would put his head in a noose. But we're in tortured reading territory here. it's just one absurd thing in his absurd article. Why are you willing to torture it to convince yourself it's credible? You follow his mania, that everything said against Wilpon, no matter the basis, must be true, because Wilpon, you'll find that you're sailing with Ahab.

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 04:38 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Centerfield wrote: Anyway, the larger point is that Megdal, Harper, Calceterra, Rosenthal, are all calling out the Wilpons for their inability (or unwillingness) to spend. They join Michael Powell, Kevin Kernan, and others who started calling them out last week. I view this as a good thing. Certainly not a bad thing! I saw Rosenthal and Reynolds this morning on MLB channel going over the whole money thing and lack of star acquisition. The Wilpon's just have no shame or conscious (I know this is old news) if they can sit in their office and watch MLB's own channel basically call them cheap and unable to be a big market team. I really don't get why they're so Teflon coated with so many fans.

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 04:41 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

They go through this every offseason. (and otherwise) but this week is a week of filler posts and content and reduced readership and for all the posts to be going up now suggests to me that there's really nothing interesting to say.

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 04:58 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Whatever, this lil' drummer boy hangs up his tom-tom at noon tomorrow.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 05:31 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

But that's not what he said. He said: “I think there is a balance there. It wasn’t, as people have written, the reason. There was a balance there because we had to make sure that the banks got paid off all of the debt." Thank you. I assure you that you don't have to keep bolding things for me. I could read it 100 times. "the banks got paid off all of the debt" does not, by definition, equal "I've used/I'm using Mets revenues to cover my personal debt." It would be astounding for him to admit such a thing. It would put his head in a noose. But we're in tortured reading territory here. it's just one absurd thing in his absurd article. Why are you willing to torture it to convince yourself it's credible? You follow his mania, that everything said against Wilpon, no matter the basis, must be true, because Wilpon, you'll find that you're sailing with Ahab. I understand now. Gotcha. So Wilpon was saying that because he has all this personal debt, he cannot supplement the Mets, who were losing money during this time. That works too. I, personally, did not read it that way, but as you said, I may have been biased by the characterization asserted to it by Megdal. I don't think you have to stretch to read my way though. And more importantly, I get your larger point about Megdal. The whole comparison to a Ponzi scheme is weak, and meant to be intentionally inciteful. But he also speaks a lot of truth about ownership, and the predicament we are in. And I want to support those who criticize the Wilpons.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 05:39 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

He actually says he has no personal debt.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 05:44 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

“There is no one in my family — the Katz family, Wilpon family, kids, whatever — there is no one who has any personal bank debt. Zero. Everything has been paid. No one owes a dollar to anybody.” A statement that I believe was intended to be misleading. Intended effect: Hey, look, we are debt free! Actual meaning: It's all non-recourse financing. (Meaning the debt is not in the name of the individuals, but in the different Sterling entities) You don't actually believe that the Wilpon business have no debt do you?

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 05:48 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Centerfield wrote: A statement that I believe was intended to be misleading. It certainly might be. I nonetheless don't see what you could be characterizing as "So Wilpon was saying that because he has all this personal debt... ." He's saying the opposite, whether it's true or not.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 05:57 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Oh, I see what you were getting at. I should have used past tense. How I read Fred's words: So, we had a ton of debt, and so yeah, we used some Mets money for a few years, but we're all good now. No debt at all. How you read Fred's words: So, yeah, we had a ton of debt. So we couldn't afford to supplement these money-losing Mets for a couple of years. But we're all good now. No debt. Is that about right?

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 06:10 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

No, I read Fred's words as "The team had a ton of debt, and was losing money from over-investing before the crisis hit. We had to get the organization caught up on those payments, and retiring some of the more pressing loans, while trying to get the organization back into a break-even point."

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 06:20 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Then we disagree. I don't think that is a reasonable reading of Fred's words. If that were the case, the answer to the Madoff question would have been an unequivocal no, rather than the watery "balance" answer that he offered.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 06:29 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Yeah, I know. But I'm not being unreasonable any more than I'm gloating. It's like we're speaking different languages. He in no way suggested that he's taking money from the team to cover his personal debts. Concluding that he said this is what is unreasonable. And that, among any number of reasons from that article alone, is why this writer you support, despite your better sensibilities, is without credibility. How pointing out that one line, which is so obviously and flagrantly baseless, can lead to this much parsing, is beyond me. I'm glad I didn't bother with the rest of his article but I wish I hadn't bothered responding at all.

Nymr83 Dec 23 2015 06:48 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

i'm so fed up with all this crap from Megdal and his ilk. if the Wilpons don't spend they get to pound the Wilpons all day for not spending. if the Wilpons do spend thats great too because then they can pound the Mets again next year for not spending MORE money while also pounding them for the signings that didnt work out and then blaming wilpon if ANY of those players were not the MOST expensive ones available (see: Jason Bay). Finally, since its their column, they get to never return to the guys they advocated for that sucked a big fat cock - have you seen any writers with a mea culpa for writing about how the "cheap skate Wilpons" should have signed Stephen Drew? nope. what about that HORRIBLE Reyes deal the Mets didn't sign? nope. and you wont see any of them apologizing when the Cespedes/Upton contracts turn to SHIT either. The Mets made it to the World Series, SUCK IT to Megdal!

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 06:57 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Not defending H-Meg, but the Mets made it to the WS in spite of the Wilpons. And cheaping pace with the Cubs will probably keep them out of the WS unless they get lucky again.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 07:15 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, I know. But I'm not being unreasonable any more than I'm gloating. It's like we're speaking different languages. He in no way suggested that he's taking money from the team to cover his personal debts. Concluding that he said this is what is unreasonable. And that, among any number of reasons from that article alone, is why this writer you support, despite your better sensibilities, is without credibility. How pointing out that one line, which is so obviously and flagrantly baseless, can lead to this much parsing, is beyond me. I'm glad I didn't bother with the rest of his article but I wish I hadn't bothered responding at all. I don't think you're being unreasonable. I think we just view our respective takeaways as not reasonable. It happens. We should blame Wilpon for being vague and Martino for not following up for clarification. And like I said, I get what you are saying about Megdal. I think you could have easily cited to the Ponzi scheme characterization, for which there really is no defense. But for now, he is helping to rally against the Wilpons, and anyone who does that these days is ok in my book! And, your criticisms of him aside, he does get a lot of things right in his articles.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 07:18 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I can't believe this is even a debate. Fred said that payroll was trimmed "in part" because of "debt". Does anyone here think that Fred wasn't referring to Madoff debt? The Mets sold 49% of the team a few years ago to a select group of investors, including Bill Maher. Does anyone think that the proceeds from those sales wasn't used to pay back Madoff debt -- i.e., non Mets related debt? You know, the Mets have a powerful financial incentive to not invest in the team. MLB allowed the Mets to use the team as collateral against the various outstanding enormous loans. So if Fred and Saul, for example, suddenly find a spare $20M under the couch cushion and must now decide whether to use the new-found money to either increase payroll or to pay down more of the debt --- from a strict financial POV, the smarter play is to pay down the debt. $20M applied to debt is a $20M increase in the equity that the owners have in the team. It's essentially $20M in the owners' pocket in the long run. But $20M invested in the team doesn't guarantee a $20M increase in team revenue or even an increase in team performance. Putting that money to payroll is riskier, investment-wise. You can thank the lords of baseball for letting the owners essentially mortgage the Mets to pay back Madoff debt, and then chuckle as they torture themselves to tell you that this is different than the McCourt thing.

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 07:29 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Considering the Mets lost money for most of the last 6 years, it's actually hurt them.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 07:35 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I can't believe this is even a debate. Fred said that payroll was trimmed "in part" because of "debt". Does anyone here think that Fred wasn't referring to Madoff debt? The Mets sold 49% of the team a few years ago to a select group of investors, including Bill Maher. Does anyone think that the proceeds from those sales wasn't used to pay back Madoff debt -- i.e., non Mets related debt? [fimg=200]http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x2691603/boy-raising-hand.jpg[/fimg] Considering it was immediately reported afterwards that the team turned around and used that money to close the team's loans with MLB and Bank of America, with the balance going into then-current operating costs, and that several of the shares were bought by the family themselves, either directly or by SNY, yes, I think that money was used to cover team debt. Jeff and Saul and SNY buying new shares of the team to cover team debt is an example of them putting money into the team — not taking money out. In other words, it's an example of what you so desperately want them to do more of. http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ ... -1.3612447 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240 ... 2248703420 http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.1047096

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 07:35 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Ceetar wrote: Considering the Mets lost money for most of the last 6 years, it's actually hurt them. What hurt them? What's "it's"?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 07:41 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I can't believe this is even a debate. Fred said that payroll was trimmed "in part" because of "debt". Does anyone here think that Fred wasn't referring to Madoff debt? The Mets sold 49% of the team a few years ago to a select group of investors, including Bill Maher. Does anyone think that the proceeds from those sales wasn't used to pay back Madoff debt -- i.e., non Mets related debt? Considering it was immediately reported afterwards that the team turned around and used that money to close the team's loans with MLB and Bank of America, with the balance going into then-current operating costs, and that several of the shares were bought by the family themselves, either directly or by SNY, yes, I think that money was used to cover team debt. Jeff and Saul and SNY buying new shares of the team to cover team debt is an example of them putting money into the team — not taking money out. In other words, it's an example of what you so desperately want them to do more of. Actually I don't want Jeff and Saul to increase their stake in the team, but I know whatcha mean. But besides, that MLB loan was necessitated because of the Madoff hit. That's why the Mets had to borrow money from MLB in the first place. Me, I don't have a problem with what the Mets do with their money and what goes where and where goes what. If Fred and Saul wanna blow it all on whores and whiskey, god bless 'em. It's their money. My problem is that they don't have enough money to run the team properly. This is not debatable. And anyone who wants to pick nits here by reminding me that I don't know precisely how much money the Mets have or haven't because it's all so secret and private is just being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 07:43 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I didn't do that. You asked a question and I answered it.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 07:46 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: I didn't do that. You asked a question and I answered it. You didn't do ... what?

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 07:46 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

batmagadanleadoff wrote: And anyone who wants to pick nits here by reminding me that I don't know precisely how much money the Mets have or haven't because it's all so secret and private is just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. no, that's not true. We DO know how much money the Mets have. and how much they make. We DON'T know how much the Mets owners have. You're demanding the Wilpons spend their own money above and beyond what the Mets asset brings in. In some cases this is fair, after all the money they make from SNY and such is a direct result of the Mets and you could maintain that using that revenue is sustainable because you're investing in the main product that's making you that money. But it's still not the Mets money nor is it within MLB's legal right to demand that they invest it that way.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 07:48 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I didn't do that. You asked a question and I answered it. You didn't do ... what? Your last sentence in your prior post.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 07:52 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 23 2015 07:55 PM

Ceetar wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: And anyone who wants to pick nits here by reminding me that I don't know precisely how much money the Mets have or haven't because it's all so secret and private is just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. no, that's not true. We DO know how much money the Mets have. and how much they make. We DON'T know how much the Mets owners have. You're demanding the Wilpons spend their own money above and beyond what the Mets asset brings in. In some cases this is fair, after all the money they make from SNY and such is a direct result of the Mets and you could maintain that using that revenue is sustainable because you're investing in the main product that's making you that money. But it's still not the Mets money nor is it within MLB's legal right to demand that they invest it that way. I don't care what the owners do with their money. I simply believe that they don't have the funds to run the team the way it should be run. I don't care where the money comes from or where it goes. But they don't have the money to run the team. Just look at their actions ever since the Madoff scandal broke. Their comments. The payroll level. Everything. They don't have enough money to run the team the right way. A little Occam's Razor here ferchrissakes instead of convoluted obfuscation and the ridiculous stretch of the imagination and absurd logic that because Megdal's pieces are flawed (I agree) the Mets have no financial problems and nothing that Megdal ever wrote has a ring of truth to it.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2015 07:53 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I didn't do that. You asked a question and I answered it. You didn't do ... what? Your last sentence in your prior post. Yeah. I wan't saying that you specifically were being contrary for the sake of being contrary. My bad if that's how that post reads. I was generalizing there, and not addressing any specific poster.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 08:24 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Yeah, I follow, thanks. de Aza's signing hasn't been de Announza'd yet, despite a handful of sources saying it's a done deal, for what must be like 24 hours now. If business shuts down on Christmas Eve, this one might drag out a bit, or perhaps even not go down at all.

Ceetar Dec 23 2015 08:27 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, I follow, thanks. de Aza's signing hasn't been de Announza'd yet, despite a handful of sources saying it's a done deal, for what must be like 24 hours now. If business shuts down on Christmas Eve, this one might drag out a bit, or perhaps even not go down at all. got the press release about 5 minutes ago. It's official.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2015 08:28 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

I feel like I just made that happen, somehow.

d'Kong76 Dec 23 2015 08:40 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Edgy MD wrote: I feel like I just made that happen, somehow. Thanks.

Centerfield Dec 23 2015 09:20 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

This article: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2 ... -underdogs And this one: http://www.amazinavenue.com/2015/3/30/8 ... pon-madoff Provide some more insight. Basically, the Wilpons lost a shit ton of money in Madoff. Estimates say $500 million. This caused them to take out additional loans. The loans (originally $430 million) were leveraged against the Mets and SNY. Why are the Mets losing money? Because the owners borrowed a shit ton of money, used it to cover their own losses, and now the Mets have to cover those interest payments. If what is in these articles is correct, it goes a long way to explaining why a New York team cannot afford to be competitive.

Mex17 Dec 24 2015 12:13 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Wasn't the entire point of starting SNY was that a team Owned and Operated TV station is a financial bonanza for said team (and such a bonanza leads to investing back in the team)? Isn't that the reason why the Dodgers and Yankees have money to burn? Then why (if I am reading the comments correctly) are we talking about "SNY revenue" as different from "Mets revenue". I understand that it technically is but in practice it does not seem to be that way for others. But steering this back to baseball for a moment, why were they so hell-bent on not blocking Lagares (and/or Nimmo if you want to logically extend it) with a two year commitment to Span yet they were completely fine in blocking Herrera with a four year, more expensive, commitment to Zobrist? And would De Aza really have been off the market if they waited until January to see Span work out? I don't think so, not with Cespedes/Upton/Parra/Gordon/Fowler still out there as dominoes that need to fall. I actually do not hate the De Aza signing but I do think that it was premature. I see the baseball logic that is being put forth (and this really could just be a baseball decision to pursue this path as opposed to financial limitations. . .even though I understand where the skepticism is coming from). We will see it it works and we will also see where they go from here prior to February (with regard to another veteran bullpen piece and another righthanded bench player ala Raburn. . .or if Cespedes somehow drops in our laps). I don't know if this column by Sherman was discussed, but at the very least it explains the logic being pursued (although it was clear that he wanted Span). http://nypost.com/2015/12/12/mets-will- ... 5-formula/

Nymr83 Dec 24 2015 12:32 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

But steering this back to baseball for a moment, why were they so hell-bent on not blocking Lagares (and/or Nimmo if you want to logically extend it) with a two year commitment to Span yet they were completely fine in blocking Herrera with a four year, more expensive, commitment to Zobrist? Span could easily have been a health issue that they weren't interested in touching. from a dollars and cents perspective (and cents are the opposite of sense in baseball) Lagares makes good money and Herrera doesn't so its easier to justify blocking him, and this isn't a "cheap Mets thing" its how most of pro sports operates. And would De Aza really have been off the market if they waited until January to see Span work out? I don't think so, not with Cespedes/Upton/Parra/Gordon/Fowler still out there as dominoes that need to fall. i dont really agree with that logic, because not everyone is looking for the same thing. if you wait on him he could sign elsewhere as another team may like the price/1 year commitment. guys dont always sign in the order of talent or close to it.

Edgy MD Dec 24 2015 04:56 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Last I saw, Span (and Scott Boras) has been hunting for three years. Last I saw with regard to Zobrist, the Mets were pretty shy with regard to a fourth year, but obviously his versatility was part of his appeal, so he could play at a position where he was doing the most helping and the least blocking, should somebody be coming on strong. Anyhow, now they got a one-year guy. I think four years for a second-baseman, I think of Luis Castillo.

Nymr83 Dec 24 2015 07:38 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

Another bad deal Castillo. Many long term deals turn out bad, you need to pick the least bad ones and do it, there may not be a worthwile one every offseason. Heyward really might be the exception because of his age and that's the only guy I would have really wanted. But even he could just end up "on"

batmagadanleadoff Dec 24 2015 08:01 AM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

If you wanted to, you could probably talk yourself out of ever getting any free agent.

Centerfield Dec 24 2015 04:18 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

You know, one thing about the De Aza move was that they managed to keep it completely under wraps until it happened. So there is that.

d'Kong76 Dec 24 2015 04:21 PM Re: Hurry, let's chat about De Aza before it's too late

We'll have to remember that when the 'Memories of De Aza' thread gets posted.