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What's a slide rule werth?

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 04:46 PM

[youtube:iot889cp]b1o4iM7ODWQ[/youtube:iot889cp] There's the play -- at about the 38 second mark. I saw the play live and in replay last night many times and I still don't know what Werth did to incur the interference call. During the game, Gary Cohen said that Werth began his slide after arriving at the bag but to my eyes, the replay does not support Gary's observation. Also, Werth was easily able to touch the bag as he slid through it. So what the hell was that call all about? Werth's slide looked about as routine as any takeout slide I've ever seen in all my life of watching baseball. The replay umps upheld the call so Werth apparently did something illegal. But I don't see it.

d'Kong76 Jul 08 2016 04:51 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Just sticking this here from 07/07 IGT... Apparently Nats' GM Mike Rizzo got into a screaming match with the umps in a hallway after the game, complete with security guards intervening. Not surprisingly it was over the slide-rule call. Can't say as how I blame him. Not that I think he's right necessarily but there seems to be no consistency in how and if that rule is applied. Werth slid past the base twice yesterday and Revere did it once but only one of them wound up being called at of course it came in the 9th inning of a tight game. Whether this new rule is being applied by the letter of the law or subject to interpretation seems up in the air and I certainly can't claim to be able to predict it. http://nypost.com/2016/07/08/nats-gm-um ... mets-game/

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 04:54 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

he slid to hit the fielder rather than the base. Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it. it's only a bona fide slide if (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and it's really simple. DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER. You may try to get on the bag and if the fielder is there, you can stake your claim, but otherwise DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER. It's not really a contact sport.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 04:59 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 08 2016 05:01 PM

Ceetar wrote: he slid to hit the fielder rather than the base. Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it. Isn't a runner allowed to slide into second and hit the bag with his hand? Ceetar wrote: Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it. Can't Werth claim that his momentum took him past the bag? Runners commonly overslide the base.

themetfairy Jul 08 2016 05:00 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Batmags - it's good seeing you back!

Frayed Knot Jul 08 2016 05:00 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

I agree that he started the slide legally, the call must have been made because he didn't end it within the new rules because he made contact with Walker while over-sliding the bag. Credit to Walker & Cabrera as they picked up on it immediately. Now maybe they were just begging but it might have helped sell the call. This rule is shaping up a lot like the plate rule did when it was new a couple of years ago in that no one seems to know exactly how literally to apply the new standards (remember catchers being called for 'blocking the plate' when the runner was still 35 feet away?) and, as such, I don't blame Rizzo for blowing his stack even if he's blowing it in the wrong direction (go to the league, not the umps). Basically the rule says: - you have to start your slide before the base, something Werth did where Utley clearly did not. - the runner can not 'alter his path' to go after the fielder, something that's subject to all kinds of interpretation - and that the runner has to 'try to maintain' contact with the base, another subjective concept which can go any number of ways

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 05:04 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Frayed Knot wrote: - and that the runner has to 'try to maintain' contact with the base, another subjective concept which can go any number of ways I think this is to prevent the fielder from bumping him off. Run at the bag, slide at the bag, reach the bag. stay on the bag. batmagadanleadoff wrote: Isn't a runner allowed to slide into second and hit the bag with his hand? as long as he hangs on, which would be tough, because you're supposed to be sliding at the bag and if you're going past it on either side, you probably altered your path to get to the fielder.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 05:05 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

themetfairy wrote: Batmags - it's good seeing you back! You mean "reading" instead of "seeing" but yeah, thanks.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 05:07 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Ceetar wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: - and that the runner has to 'try to maintain' contact with the base, another subjective concept which can go any number of ways I think this is to prevent the fielder from bumping him off. Run at the bag, slide at the bag, reach the bag. stay on the bag. batmagadanleadoff wrote: Isn't a runner allowed to slide into second and hit the bag with his hand? as long as he hangs on, which would be tough, because you're supposed to be sliding at the bag and if you're going past it on either side, you probably altered your path to get to the fielder. I don't think the runner has to hang on the bag. I think he merely has to be able to hang onto the bag.

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 05:13 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 05:23 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Ceetar wrote: well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag. Why would Werth want to stay on the bag being that he was forced out? Again, I think the rule only requires that Werth make a slide that would allow him to touch the base should he decide to want to touch the base.

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 05:32 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

no, he has to actively be able to, and try to, touch the bag. he can't alter his path. He can't fling his upper body at a fielder or aim his feet above the knee. He has to be sliding like he's intending to reach the bag and stay on it like he would if he was safe.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 05:48 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

he slid to hit the fielder rather than the base. Had he been sliding for the base, he wouldn't have overslid it. it's only a bona fide slide if (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and it's really simple. DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER. You may try to get on the bag and if the fielder is there, you can stake your claim, but otherwise DON'T TRY TO HIT THE FIELDER. It's not really a contact sport. I can't believe I'm about to type this, but I agree completely with Ceetar. And to be honest, I don't think there is really all that much to interpret. Here are the key parts: Under the new Rule 6.01(j), a runner will have to make a "bona fide slide," which is defined as making contact with the ground before reaching the base, being able to and attempting to reach the base with a hand or foot, being able to and attempting to remain on the base at the completion of the slide (except at home plate) and not changing his path for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. That last part is the key. Like Ceetar says, don't try to hit the fielder. On the play above (and really on the earlier one as well), Jason Werth tried to hit the fielder. There is no question about that. If there were 2 outs when that ground ball was hit, there is absolutely no chance that Jason Werth makes that slide. None. And that's why he's out. If you showed the slo-motion replay (the one they had on SNY last night was better) to 100 people who have never seen baseball before, and asked them whether he was trying to get to the white square or whether he was trying to get to the other guy, they'd all answer that he was trying to get to the guy. The way I see it, using the language listed in the rule, Werth did not make a "bona fide" slide for the following reasons: 1. He may or may not have made contact with the ground before reaching the base. It's close. But if it's close, then it's not a bona fide slide. Anyone attempting to reach and stay on the base hits the ground WELL BEFORE reaching the base. 2. He did not attempt to remain on the base at the completion of the slide. That slide was in no way intended to end at the bag. His feet were aimed at Walker. His momentum carried several feet past the bag. Simply reaching back with your hand as an afterthought is not an attempt to stay on the bag. It's as feeble as the guy who reaches for his wallet after the check has been paid and says "Oh I would have paid..." 3. He absolutely, positively changed his path so as to aim his weight and momentum at Walker. No one who is actually trying to get to second base quickly slides that way. A common complaint heard after the game was "Well then I have no idea how we're supposed to break up a double play then." The simple answer is, you're not. You're not allowed to try to break up a double play. You are only allowed to run to second base and try to get there safely. As Ceetar said, this is not a contact sport. No more neighborhood play. No more breaking up the double play. I'm good with that.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 08 2016 05:50 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

It is a tricky rule to interpret, and as often in today's baseball implemented so as to make a show of righting some past wrong instead of actually doing something for the future. That said the umps have to do their best to interpret the dumb rules they're supposed to uphold, and I'm pleased it went out way. What a great play by Cabrera, btw.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 05:51 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag. Why would Werth want to stay on the bag being that he was forced out? Again, I think the rule only requires that Werth make a slide that would allow him to touch the base should he decide to want to touch the base. That is absolutely, positively not what the rule states. RULE 6.01(j) — SLIDING TO BASES ON DOUBLE PLAY ATTEMPTS If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner: (1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base; (2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and (4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. A runner who engages in a "bona fide slide" shall not be called for interference under this Rule 6.01, even in cases where the runner makes contact with the fielder as a consequence of a permissible slide. In addition, interference shall not be called where a runner's contact with the fielder was caused by the fielder being positioned in (or moving into) the runner's legal pathway to the base. Notwithstanding the above, a slide shall not be a "bona fide slide" if a runner engages in a "roll block," or intentionally initiates (or attempts to initiate) contact with the fielder by elevating and kicking his leg above the fielder's knee or throwing his arm or his upper body. If the umpire determines that the runner violated this Rule 6.01(j), the umpire shall declare both the runner and batter-runner out. Note, however, that if the runner has already been put out then the runner on whom the defense was attempting to make a play shall be declared out.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 06:01 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

To put it another way, no runner who is trying to avoid making the last out on a force play at second ever overslides the bag by 4 feet like Werth did. This never happens. He slid feet first, then his momentum carried him so far past the bag that he could not reach back with his back arm to touch second. Jason Werth is over 6 ft tall. With the length of his arm, he can reach back 8 ft. from his feet. He was four feet past the bag, which means that his feet slid 12 feet past the intended target.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 06:12 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

And I heard yesterday that Dusty Baker complain that there has to be a "common sense" element that if there was no chance at the DP, then interference should not be called. I don't agree with that at all. Whether or not there is any chance at the DP, the runner should not have made an illegal slide. There may have been no chance to get Murphy, but there was every chance that one of Walker's knee tendons could have been torn. Fuck Werth. Fuck Dusty. Fuck Rizzo. And fuck the Nationals.

Fman99 Jul 08 2016 06:17 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

After watching Tejada get upended last year by Face Buttley, I'm happy for this new rule. If you're that far past the bag you're clearly not trying to get to the base. You're just being an asshole.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 06:21 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

RULE 6.01(j) — SLIDING TO BASES ON DOUBLE PLAY ATTEMPTS If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner: (1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base; (2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and (4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. See photo just above. I don't see what portion of the rule Werth violated.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 06:36 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

All of your stills are not where the play concluded. Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding. http://m.mets.mlb.com/news/article/1886 ... erference/ Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag.

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 06:39 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

he moved is body so the slide was to the left, towards Cabrera. Cabrera didn't just fall down.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 06:52 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Centerfield wrote: All of your stills are not where the play concluded. Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding. Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag. But he's allowed to slide past the bag. And he's allowed to slide three feet wide of the bag so long as he can touch the base with his hand.

dinosaur jesus Jul 08 2016 06:56 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Centerfield wrote: All of your stills are not where the play concluded. Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding. Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag. But he's allowed to slide past the bag. And he's allowed to slide three feet wide of the bag so long as he can touch the base with his hand. So long as he can touch it after completion of the slide. Here's where he was at that point. He's not even close to being able to touch it.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 07:06 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 08 2016 07:12 PM

dinosaur jesus wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Centerfield wrote: All of your stills are not where the play concluded. Watch the replay here at the 29 second mark. You can see how far past the bag he is when he finishes sliding. Also no one that is trying to get to second aims their feet three feet wide of the bag. But he's allowed to slide past the bag. And he's allowed to slide three feet wide of the bag so long as he can touch the base with his hand. So long as he can touch it after completion of the slide. Here's where he was at that point. He's not even close to being able to touch it. OK. I see it now. Werth's slide carried him too far past the bag for him to even possibly maintain contact with the base, whether by hand or foot.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 07:10 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Centerfield wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: well he's out, so no, he walks away. But he has to be able to, which means he has to stop moving. I guess he could pop up and just keep going to the dugout. if you're ABLE to stay on the bag, and you ATTEMPT to stay on the bag, then you're on the bag. Werth was not able to stay on the bag. Why would Werth want to stay on the bag being that he was forced out? Again, I think the rule only requires that Werth make a slide that would allow him to touch the base should he decide to want to touch the base. That is absolutely, positively not what the rule states. I think it does and I disagree with you on this point. Werth didn't have to be on the bag at the end of the play for his slide to be legal. Werth simply had to be able to be in contact with the bag. I think he was called for interference because at the end of his slide he was physically unable to be in contact with the base. I think the rule merely requires the possibility of contact with the bag, not actual real contact. Werth couldn't meet any of those two tests in any event.

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 07:14 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think the rule merely requires the possibility of contact with the bag, not actual real contact. Werth couldn't meet any of those two tests in any event. This is a technicality. Name me a situation where a guy is able to, and attempts to, touch the bag and doesn't actually contact the bag.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 07:18 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Ceetar wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think the rule merely requires the possibility of contact with the bag, not actual real contact. Werth couldn't meet any of those two tests in any event. This is a technicality. Name me a situation where a guy is able to, and attempts to, touch the bag and doesn't actually contact the bag. The Werth play is a perfect example because Werth, already having been forced out, has no need to maintain actual contact with the base. And since most takeout slides occur where the double play is in play, I'd say that in almost every takeout slide at second base, there's the possibility that the runner attempts to, touch the bag and doesn't actually contact the bag.

Frayed Knot Jul 08 2016 07:21 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

RULE 6.01(j) — SLIDING TO BASES ON DOUBLE PLAY ATTEMPTS If a runner does not engage in a bona fide slide, and initiates (or attempts to make) contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, he should be called for interference under this Rule 6.01. A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner: (1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base; -- the Utley thing (2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; -- pretty much the same as it always was, although now subject to part 4 (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; -- this is what tripped up Werth but it's also wide open to interpretation. Neither Werth on his previous slide nor Revere earlier in the same game stayed on the base either so then if becomes a matter of whether the ump thinks they were able to if they cared to try. (4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. -- this even more so. Is sliding to a particular side of the base depending on which way the runner thinks the fielder is leaning not allowed? How much of a shift constitutes 'changing his pathway'? Shit, initiating contact was always half the purpose in sliding. Like I said earlier, a lot of this reminds me of the home plate rule when it was first put in. Umps seemed to be calling that one by some strict letter of the law which often bore no resemblance to the intent of the rule or the reasons why it was adopted in the first place.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 07:21 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

I think you are missing the gist of the rule. I agree that in nearly every takeout slide there is a possibility that a runner attempts to contact the bag, but is not able to. The rule is stating you cannot have takeout slides any more. (Directed at batmags)

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 07:23 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Centerfield wrote: I think you are missing the gist of the rule. I agree that in nearly every takeout slide there is a possibility that a runner attempts to contact the bag, but is not able to. The rule is stating you cannot have takeout slides any more. (Directed at batmags) You're just stating the conclusion.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 07:28 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Frayed Knot wrote: (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; -- this is what tripped up Werth but it's also wide open to interpretation. Neither Werth on his previous slide nor Revere earlier in the same game stayed on the base either so then if becomes a matter of whether the ump thinks they were able to if they cared to try. (4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. -- this even more so. Is sliding to a particular side of the base depending on which way the runner thinks the fielder is leaning not allowed? How much of a shift constitutes 'changing his pathway'? Shit, initiating contact was always half the purpose in sliding. Like I said earlier, a lot of this reminds me of the home plate rule when it was first put in. Umps seemed to be calling that one by some strict letter of the law which often bore no resemblance to the intent of the rule or the reasons why it was adopted in the first place. Agreed. These two things are really the new pieces, and with all rules where discretion is involved, it will take time for there to be uniformity on how this rule is interpreted. I don't think this can be helped. It takes time for an acceptable standard to evolve. But to me, if you call it by the letter of the rule, it would be a very simple rule to enforce. Especially with the benefit of slo-mo replay, it's very easy to tell if the target of a slide is the bag, or the fielder standing in the vicinity of the bag. I think it should be enforced strictly. If the second baseman is 3 feet wide of the bag and you aim at him, it's interference. Slide to the bag, stop at the bag.

Frayed Knot Jul 08 2016 07:32 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Centerfield wrote: But to me, if you call it by the letter of the rule, it would be a very simple rule to enforce. Especially with the benefit of slo-mo replay,. Except that I'm going to be sitting in front of my TV with a gun in my mouth before this season ends if we start requiring interpretation of intent via slow motion replay.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 07:33 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Centerfield wrote: I think you are missing the gist of the rule. I agree that in nearly every takeout slide there is a possibility that a runner attempts to contact the bag, but is not able to. The rule is stating you cannot have takeout slides any more. (Directed at batmags) You're just stating the conclusion. I think I'm losing the nuances of this argument. My point is this. Jayson Werth was not sliding to get to second base. He was sliding at Neil Walker with the intent to disrupt his throw. The path he took clearly demonstrates this. Therefore it's interference. A player trying to slide to a base, that attempts (and can) stay on the base does not aim his feet at a fielder then reach back with his hand to touch the bag in passing.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 07:35 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Centerfield wrote: Centerfield wrote: I think you are missing the gist of the rule. I agree that in nearly every takeout slide there is a possibility that a runner attempts to contact the bag, but is not able to. The rule is stating you cannot have takeout slides any more. (Directed at batmags) You're just stating the conclusion. I think I'm losing the nuances of this argument. My point is this. Jayson Werth was not sliding to get to second base. He was sliding at Neil Walker with the intent to disrupt his throw. The path he took clearly demonstrates this. Therefore it's interference. A player trying to slide to a base, that attempts (and can) stay on the base does not aim his feet at a fielder then reach back with his hand to touch the bag in passing. Well then the rule permitting the runner to maintain base contact with his hand is meaningless.

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 07:39 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

It keeps a runner from just barreling over the base and taking out the fielder behind it.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 07:39 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 08 2016 07:41 PM

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I think you are missing the gist of the rule. I agree that in nearly every takeout slide there is a possibility that a runner attempts to contact the bag, but is not able to. The rule is stating you cannot have takeout slides any more. (Directed at batmags) You're just stating the conclusion. I think I'm losing the nuances of this argument. My point is this. Jayson Werth was not sliding to get to second base. He was sliding at Neil Walker with the intent to disrupt his throw. The path he took clearly demonstrates this. Therefore it's interference. A player trying to slide to a base, that attempts (and can) stay on the base does not aim his feet at a fielder then reach back with his hand to touch the bag in passing. Well then the rule permitting the runner to maintain base contact with his hand is meaningless. Jayson Werth should be allowed to do whatever the hell he wants to do slide-wise so long as his slide is within the rules. He was called for interference, I take it, because he slid so far past the bag that he could no longer maintain base contact no matter how hard he tried. He wasn't called for interference because the umps determined -- after getting into Werth's head -- that Werth was trying to disrupt Walker's throw.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 07:40 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Ceetar wrote: It keeps a runner from just barreling over the base and taking out the fielder behind it. What does? What is "it"?

Zvon Jul 08 2016 07:47 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Why don't they just make it if a runner is on first and there's a ground ball that an infielder catches cleanly, boom, automatic double play. [ /] That's really the only way they can assure no one gets hurt at 2nd base during the attempt.

Ceetar Jul 08 2016 08:04 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: It keeps a runner from just barreling over the base and taking out the fielder behind it. What does? What is "it"? the rule that you have to touch/hold the bag. Zvon wrote: Why don't they just make it if a runner is on first and there's a ground ball that an infielder catches cleanly, boom, automatic double play. [ /] That's really the only way they can assure no one gets hurt at 2nd base during the attempt. Or you could just continue to penalize people that slide in order to make contact with the fielder. It's a non-contact sport, and you're not allowed to interfere with the fielders in other situations. Why the interpretation changed to allow it at second and home is absurd anyway. Why not barrel into the first baseman then? Good chance he drops it on a close play that you hit him just as he catches it, barreling past the bag (but that's fine, it's first base, you're still safe)

Frayed Knot Jul 08 2016 09:06 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Centerfield wrote: My point is this. Jayson Werth was not sliding to get to second base. He was sliding at Neil Walker with the intent to disrupt his throw. I don't think these things are mutually exclusive. You can be both sliding into a base (Werth clearly did hit the base) AND intending to disrupt the throw. And even the new rules here say nothing about not disrupting a fielder's throw, it just needs to be done legally. What's changed and what is still subject to interpretation is what constitutes legally. The path he took clearly demonstrates this. Therefore it's interference. I read the path he took as perfectly legal as he went directly to the base. Just because Walker was already there doesn't mean he has to go out of his way to avoid him either. What caused the DP call was that Werth, in effect, went in too hard which was evident in that he couldn't stop in time.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 10:43 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Nobody is saying Werth has to go out of his way to avoid Walker. He just can't go out of his way to hit him. And that's exactly what he did. I feel like this image shows it clearly. When you slide feet first, you point your feet at your target. The reason is simple. Your feet arrive first. It maximizes the chance that you will be safe. No one who is trying to beat out a force play will intentionally slide several feet to the left of the bag, then touch the base with their hand as they pass by. This is a foolish way to reach a base. The only reason to slide in this asinine manner contact with the fielder. (That's why you don't see this slide anywhere else.) And that is what Werth was trying to do. His feet are pointed at Walker, and not second base. It's interference. If he legitimately was intending to slide into second base, his feet would have touched the front of second base and he would have stopped somewhere around the bag. Certainly within arm's length of it. Walker, who was behind the bag and to the left, would not be a factor in his slide.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 10:51 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Ceetar wrote: Why the interpretation changed to allow it at second and home is absurd anyway. Why not barrel into the first baseman then? Good chance he drops it on a close play that you hit him just as he catches it, barreling past the bag (but that's fine, it's first base, you're still safe) It really is silly isn't it? If someone slid feet first three feet inside the first base bag, taking out the first baseman, there would be no question that it was interference. No one would care whether that runner reached out with his hand to touch first base as he was barreling past it into the fielder.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 08 2016 10:57 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Nobody is saying Werth has to go out of his way to avoid Walker. He just can't go out of his way to hit him. And that's exactly what he did. I feel like this image shows it clearly. When you slide feet first, you point your feet at your target. The reason is simple. Your feet arrive first. It maximizes the chance that you will be safe. No one who is trying to beat out a force play will intentionally slide several feet to the left of the bag, then touch the base with their hand as they pass by. This is a foolish way to reach a base. The only reason to slide in this asinine manner contact with the fielder. (That's why you don't see this slide anywhere else.) And that is what Werth was trying to do. His feet are pointed at Walker, and not second base. It's interference. If he legitimately was intending to slide into second base, his feet would have touched the front of second base and he would have stopped somewhere around the bag. Certainly within arm's length of it. Walker, who was behind the bag and to the left, would not be a factor in his slide. All of these points that you make here are toatally irrelevant. The rule says nothing about what you claim, including sliding to the side of the bag. Also, the rule doesn't ban contact with the fielder. In fact, the rules, which you posted, state the following: A runner who engages in a "bona fide slide" shall not be called for interference under this Rule 6.01, even in cases where the runner makes contact with the fielder as a consequence of a permissible slide. The runner also has rights. He has a right to the base. He has a right to get out of the way of the oncoming throw and has the right to choose how to get out of the way of that throw in order to avoid getting hit in the head with that throw. You're making up things and concerns that aren't expressed anywhere in the rules. Also, Werth is allowed to point his feet at the fielder. In fact, Werth is allowed to overslide the base and come into foot contact with Walker, so long as Werth doesn't raise or elevate his feet to make that contact, and so long as Werth is theoretically able to maintain hand contact with the base. It's in the rules.

Centerfield Jul 08 2016 11:13 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Let's do this. The rule states: A "bona fide slide" for purposes of Rule 6.01 occurs when the runner: (1) begins his slide (i.e., makes contact with the ground) before reaching the base; (2) is able and attempts to reach the base with his hand or foot; (3) is able and attempts to remain on the base (except home plate) after completion of the slide; and (4) slides within reach of the base without changing his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder. In order to be a legal slide, all four of these things must happen. As to number (4), I read this as "The runner must be within reach of the base and he cannot change his pathway for the purpose of initiating contact with a fielder." Agree or disagree?

Zvon Jul 08 2016 11:38 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Since when is baseball considered a "non-contact" sport? Not saying this is a bad vein but that's a bunch of bullshit. I understand trying to keep these expensive players safe and what they are doing (I don't agree) but on the other hand they are getting paid VERY well to play baseball, not softball and, yea, it sucks, sometimes people get hurt. Sometimes careers are derailed by injuries. It happens. Such is life. You can't play baseball in a bubble. Blatant barrel rolls or cleats up slides, sure, elbows, head butts, bad, but no more feet first breaking up a double play in a legal manner? A hook slide is illegal? They may as well say on DPs the runner has to veer off, out of the baseline, away from the base, like lazy runners do. There was a day that baseball players were good enough athletes to do what they had to do to avoid contact, and 99% of the time they did. I think this Utley rule is a bunch of overblown bullshit.

Frayed Knot Jul 09 2016 02:33 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Yeah, I don't think the rule was meant to say (and of course half the problem here is that no one seems to know exactly what the rule meant to say including those who made it and those in charge of enforcing it) that toes-first slides directly into the the base are the only legal way of going into a base, nor is that what triggered the DP call. What I interpret the "can't alter your path" clause to mean is that a runner running towards the inside of the base say suddenly makes an abrupt zag towards the other side of the bag in an obvious reaction to a fielder who has shifted that way after taking the throw. Absent that kind of move where a fielder gets out of the approaching runner's way only to have that runner come at him anyway, I think that any slide where the runner hits the base should still be legit. What seemingly got Werth nailed was not where he slid but his inability to hold the base afterward which is now enough evidence to deem that the slide was too hard. And, yes, baseball was never defined as a 'non-contact' sport.

Edgy MD Jul 09 2016 02:41 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Except by Rich Becker.

Zvon Jul 09 2016 04:15 PM Re: What's a slide rule werth?

Frayed Knot wrote: And, yes, baseball was never defined as a 'non-contact' sport. I had a conversation with one of my brothers about this last night. He coached baseball for years, has a son about to start college ball. He believes that baseball is not a contact sport and never was, even before the rule changes. He said about 80% of people out there would agree with him. I find this hard to believe but I suppose I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I'm gonna start the BASEBALL LIKE IT OUGHTA BE BASEBALL LEAGUE.