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So, You're a Jurist

I find for Panera. Their agreement has been violated.

4 votes

I find for the mall. Burritos aren't sandwiches.

10 votes

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 01:48 PM

A conundrum based on a recent article in The Wall Street Journal, citing an actual case that a Massachusetts court faced in 2006: Is a burrito a sandwich? Panera Bread contracted with a mall, making them the designated sandwich provider in that mall. The mall agreed, for a fee, to bar all competing sandwich shops from opening. When a Qdoba Mexican Grill arrived, the question went to court. You are the jurist. You are to decide, based on the law, not on your obvious bias for one lunch over the other. Has the mall violated the agreement?

cooby Jul 11 2016 01:54 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

No. And if I were the foreman I would tell Panara Bread to grow up

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 01:57 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Hey, it was a judge's call. There's something of a chain of being that describes hand-held meals featuring a filling contained within a bread product: [list:plofscaz]BLT -> Hamburger -> Hot Dog -> Wrap -> Burrito -> Hot Pocket[/list:u:plofscaz] I think the ambiguity begins somewhere between Hamburger and Hot Dog, but it's a tough call where it ends.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 11 2016 02:53 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Bobby Valentine invented the missing link between burritos and sandwiches -- the wrap. I think we'd agree wraps are sandwiches! The real issue of course are landlords granting, and retailers insisting upon, these exclusive-use clauses that don't do shit for consumers or capitalism. Thousands wind up in court because they don't anticipate that retail, like food, is a constantly evolving thing.

Lefty Specialist Jul 11 2016 02:57 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

There should have been language in the contract defining exactly what a sandwich was. Without that, 'sandwich' can be expanded to cover virtually any food product. Since the mall was accepting a fee for this exclusivity, it was their responsibility for providing that definition. If they didn't, then Panera would be able to define sandwich as they wished. The mall was trying to have their sandwich and eat it too.

d'Kong76 Jul 11 2016 03:07 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 11 2016 03:30 PM

I'm surprised a mall landlord would allow such a clause. Malls typically have food courts or dining areas and there is going to be overlap. Over- lap is good. My guess is the landlord's lawyer goofed. Those clauses work/ are more appropriate for smaller shopping centers so that you can't have two liquor stores or two deli's or whatever competing for the same traffic. I think they're all sandwiches. Tortillas are nothing more than skinny bread.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jul 11 2016 03:25 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

I'd side with Panera. Speaking of Panera, I used to LOVE that place. Love, love, love. My idea of eating exotically while travelling was to go to Panera and try a different kind of cookie. But I have to tell you, that place has changed. A few months ago, I ordered the turkey sandwich, looked longingly at the astonishingly limited amount of turkey on my turkey sandwich and declared that this was NOT a $6 sandwich. it just wasn't. I swear there was one slice of turkey folded over, a lettuce leaf and slice of cheese. The menu items starting getting stranger and more expensive. It seemed like the decor was getting more high-brow, and they they started adding things like quasi waiter service and entering your order via computer. We had three bad experiences in a row, and when I say "bad," I mean awful. We haven't gone in months. The company sent me one of those online surveys. I filled it out and included a long, heartfelt note. Never heard a reply. I've since discovered that there are other places where I can get soup and sandwich, and where the sandwiches actually have meat on them and I don't have to have Quinoa or kale added to it. Like most Mets fans, I'm loyal to a fault. I even bought Kiss tickets last week. It kills me to badmouth Panera and shun it. But sometimes you just have to say, "Enough!" And keep your damn kale off my sandwich.

cooby Jul 11 2016 03:42 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

But would a Mexican Grill have more than burritos on their menu? Shut them out entirely because of that? We have a River Festival every year at Labor Day in Lock Haven. Boat races, crafts, food vendors. One year an award winning BBQ guy signed up for a food stand and then someone realized that the JayCees were selling BBQs, so he wasn't allowed. He was resigned to giving out samples. Absurd.

Ceetar Jul 11 2016 03:44 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

If I was Panera I'd look to evict anyone selling anything sandwiched between something else. I actually haven't been to Panera much in the last 4 years or so since I don't work at a job near one anymore (though one opening on my commute in, and on my commute home) so I can't speak to their recent quality. I enjoyed them in the past though, particularly years in the past when we'd specifically drive over to the one in Westbury sometimes for something different. Visited (one of) the originals in St Louis once too.

Chad Ochoseis Jul 11 2016 03:59 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

I was a grad student in St. Louis back when Panera was the St. Louis Bread Company on Delmar Boulevard. I had an expensive, crappy sandwich from them in 1989, commented on it in their suggestion box, and got a wishy washy "come try us again" letter in response. I've hardly been back since. Yeah, I hold a grudge. Also, I prefer burritos to soup and sandwiches, anyway. That being said, it also shocks me that the attorneys didn't figure out that "sandwich" was ambiguous when they designed the agreement. There's a doctrine, at least in insurance contracts, that ambiguous phrasing is interpreted in favor of the weaker party. But that doesn't apply here, where Big Food is on one side and Big Shopping is on the other. There's probably more to the case than what's in the contract, though. Does the mall already have a food court with various other restaurants? That would support the idea that the intent of the contract was to give Panera an exclusive on *sandwiches only* (up yours, Panera!). On the other hand, if there's no food court and Panera's the only restaurant in the mall, that would support the idea that the intent of the contract was to give Panera an exclusive on *lunch* (up yours, Qdoba!). And there's got to be some correspondence available where Panera and the mall discussed what they wanted. I'm not an attorney, but I'd have to guess that the correspondence is discoverable, and the court could figure out from the other information what the contract was really supposed to say. Without other information, I'm inclined to disagree with Panera. A burrito isn't a sandwich. If you tell your friends you're going to open a sandwich shop, and they ask what you're specialty is going to be, and your answer is "steak burritos", you'll get a funny look.

themetfairy Jul 11 2016 04:12 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

If you can pick it up and eat it without utensils, it's a sandwich. I couldn't see eating Qdoba without utensils. Thus, IMHO Qdoba is not a sandwich shop.

d'Kong76 Jul 11 2016 04:23 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Typically a chain like Panera has a lease template already made up as a starting negotiating point. They're sticklers for space and appearance so they all look alike and operate consistent. The landlord of a mall wouldn't give one chain such a clause because they also want Sbaro's, etc. to open three spaces down and offer eggplant parm subs so that clause would be stricken or ammended. I think they screwed up. Matzoh bread and tortillas have basically the same ingredients. Why is one bread and the other not?

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 04:47 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

I think the job of clarifying ambiguous language beyond the reach of the most tortured of redefinitions is what keeps law-talking guys rich rich rich. Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Like most Mets fans, I'm loyal to a fault. I even bought Kiss tickets last week. It kills me to badmouth Panera and shun it. But sometimes you just have to say, "Enough!" And keep your damn kale off my sandwich. Panera is the Pantera of sandwich shops.

cooby Jul 11 2016 04:53 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

d'Kong76 wrote: Typically a chain like Panera has a lease template already made up as a starting negotiating point. They're sticklers for space and appearance so they all look alike and operate consistent. The landlord of a mall wouldn't give one chain such a clause because they also want Sbaro's, etc. to open three spaces down and offer eggplant parm subs so that clause would be stricken or ammended. I think they screwed up. Matzoh bread and tortillas have basically the same ingredients. Why is one bread and the other not? Because Mexican food is not the same as Panera food. Do they shut out spaghetti/pizza joints because they have wheat in the pasta/pizzadough? How about egg rolls? No Chinese? Perish the thought. I'd leave that mall if I were eating out.

cooby Jul 11 2016 04:54 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

I know, as usual, I'm missing the point. Going to go have lunch now - leftover Chinese from last night

d'Kong76 Jul 11 2016 04:55 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Simple Definition of tortilla : a round, thin Mexican bread that is usually eaten hot with a filling of meat, cheese, etc. Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

metsmarathon Jul 11 2016 05:00 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

if a hot dog is a sandwich, then so is a taco. and if a taco is a sandwich, then nachos are simply a whole bunch of sandwiches scattered about a plate. if i place cheese upon my cracker, is it, too, a sandwich?

metsmarathon Jul 11 2016 05:01 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

wait... how is a pizza not an open-faced sandwich?

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 05:02 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

metsmarathon wrote: if i place cheese upon my cracker, is it, too, a sandwich? Only if you put another cracker on top, Alan Dershowitz.

metsmarathon Jul 11 2016 05:07 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Edgy MD wrote: metsmarathon wrote: if i place cheese upon my cracker, is it, too, a sandwich? Only if you put another cracker on top, Alan Dershowitz. open faced sandwiches matter too.

d'Kong76 Jul 11 2016 05:08 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Did they cut/trade De Aza yet?

cooby Jul 11 2016 05:11 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Hey! Baseball's on hold! Let us argue about food! :D

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 05:15 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

I've added a poll.

themetfairy Jul 11 2016 05:55 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

d'Kong76 wrote: Matzoh bread and tortillas have basically the same ingredients. Why is one bread and the other not? Try making and eating a matzah sandwich (chuckling to myself at the mental image of crumbs flying all over the place).

seawolf17 Jul 11 2016 06:03 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Edgy MD wrote: Panera is the Pantera of sandwich shops. Holy moley, no. Panera is the Journey of sandwich shops. Se-Port Deli is the Pantera of sandwich shops.

Lefty Specialist Jul 11 2016 06:27 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

It's easy to say, "Oh yeah, that's a sandwich and that isn't". But that's not the standard here. A contract is entered into and the two sides have to define things. Panera can pay $5000 a month in rent, but that's probably defined as US dollars. Otherwise, they'd be free to pay in Australian dollars or Monopoly dollars. If you're going to go to the trouble to have exclusivity, you sure as hell better define that exclusivity exactly. Kind of dumb on the mall's part. I've had to deal with contract language in my job and believe me, if someone sees a loophole, they'll drive right through it.

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 06:32 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Kind of dumb on the mall's part? I'd say it was kind of dumb on Panera's (and Pantera's) part. The mall gets to have exclusivity $$$ from Panera and eat their burrito too.

cooby Jul 11 2016 06:50 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Five votes for Free Enterprise!

d'Kong76 Jul 11 2016 07:05 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

I had an intern do some googling and what's a sandwich varies from state to state. NY is a very liberal state when deciding what's a sandwich and what isn't... The Commonwealth not so much so.

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 08:23 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

You just know that on the Isle of Sandwich, they're real dicks about what is and isn't a sandwich.

Nymr83 Jul 11 2016 10:22 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

sorry, i'd construe this in favor of the mall unless there is further evidence as to the meaning these parties intended.

Edgy MD Jul 11 2016 10:45 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Yeah, my sympathies are with Panera, but I'd have to find for the mall as well. Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Locke also ruled in favor of the mall, citing the Webster's dictionary definition of "sammy," after listening to testimony provided by big shot chefs, among others. "I know of no chef or culinary historian who would call a burrito a sandwich," said chef Chris Schlesinger. "Indeed, the notion would be absurd to any credible chef or culinary historian." "A sandwich is not commonly understood to include burritos, tacos and quesadillas, which are typically made with a single tortilla and stuffed with a choice filling of meat, rice, and beans," Locke wrote. While I'd agree, I'd point out that his ruling is phrased all wrong as an attempt to provide semantic clarity for a semantic issue. And so I'd imagine the case might have had strong appeal potential. Judge Richard Posner, writing in the New Republic, disagreed with the ruling: “A hamburger is regarded as a sandwich, and also a hot dog—and some people regard tacos and burritos as sandwiches, and a quesadilla is even more sandwich-like.” I'm with Locke, but he needs a better clerk.

Fman99 Jul 11 2016 11:44 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

It's not a sandwich. Der.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 12 2016 12:37 AM Re: So, You're a Jurist

And a knish ain't nothing but a potato sandwich.

d'Kong76 Jul 12 2016 12:57 AM Re: So, You're a Jurist

In NYS a burrito is a sandwich... Sandwiches include cold and hot sandwiches of every kind that are prepared and ready to be eaten, whether made on bread, on bagels, on rolls, in pitas, in wraps, or otherwise, and regardless of the filling or number of layers. A sandwich can be as simple as a buttered bagel or roll, or as elaborate as a six-foot, toasted submarine sandwich. Some examples of taxable sandwiches include: common sandwiches, such as: BLTs (bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwiches); club sandwiches; cold cut sandwiches; grilled cheese sandwiches; peanut butter and jelly sandwiches salad-type sandwiches (e.g., chicken, egg, ham, and tuna); bagel sandwiches (served buttered or with spreads, or otherwise as a sandwich); burritos cheese-steak sandwiches; croissant sandwiches; fish fry sandwiches; flatbread sandwiches; breakfast sandwiches; gyros; hamburgers on buns, rolls, etc.; heroes, hoagies, torpedoes, grinders, submarines, and other such sandwiches; hot dogs and sausages on buns, rolls, etc.; melt sandwiches; open-faced sandwiches; panini sandwiches; Reuben sandwiches; and wraps and pita sandwiches.

Lefty Specialist Jul 12 2016 01:07 AM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Well, dammit, I needed to know. Panera lost. Panera loses lawsuit to Qdoba over lease issue Nov. 14, 2006 A Massachusetts Panera Bread lost a suit to Qdoba Mexican Grill. The victory allows Qdoba to move into the same shopping mall as Panera. For this store, Panera had a clause in its lease that prevents the White City Shopping Center in Shrewsbury, Mass., from renting to another sandwich shop. Panera tried to invoke that clause to stop the opening of a Qdoba Mexican Grill. But Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Locke cited Webster's Dictionary as well as testimony from a chef and a former high-ranking federal agriculture official in ruling that Qdoba's burritos and other offerings are not sandwiches. The difference, the judge ruled, comes down to two slices of bread versus one tortilla. "A sandwich is not commonly understood to include burritos, tacos and quesadillas, which are typically made with a single tortilla and stuffed with a choice filling of meat, rice and beans," Locke wrote in a decision released last week.

MFS62 Jul 12 2016 01:10 AM Re: So, You're a Jurist

batmagadanleadoff wrote: And a knish ain't nothing but a potato sandwich. And a croissant ain't nuthin' but a roll. (Which will be the title of my cook book when I get around to writing it. It will de-mystify the dishes we've all heard about but thought they were too complex to cook because of their foreign names.) And, from what MGM said, A few months ago, I ordered the turkey sandwich, looked longingly at the astonishingly limited amount of turkey on my turkey sandwich and declared that this was NOT a $6 sandwich. it just wasn't. I swear there was one slice of turkey folded over, a lettuce leaf and slice of cheese. if Panera is charging $6 for that puny stuff, they're not making sandwiches, either. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 12 2016 08:27 AM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Sandwiches are some sort of filling between pieces of starch. A burrito is a filling enrobed by a starch; or a starch stuffed with the filling; there's no "between" there. It's no sandwich, Panera. Now make me a f*cking sandwich.

d'Kong76 Jul 12 2016 01:58 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A: Does this burrito have a top? B: Well anyone can see... A: Just answer the question yes or no; does this burrito have a top? B: Yes. A: Does it have a bottom? B: Yes, of course. A: If the court will pardon my grammar; where is the filling of the burrito at?? B: Well, it's in between the top and the bottom. A: No further questions.

cooby Jul 12 2016 02:02 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Usually when I eat a burrito the filling squirts out the other end except for the part that is sticking to the roof of my mouth and searing it. Love them :D Panera bread, meh

metsmarathon Jul 12 2016 02:45 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A: Does this burrito have a top? B: Well anyone can see... A: Just answer the question yes or no; does this burrito have a top? B: Yes. A: Does it have a bottom? B: Yes, of course. A: If the court will pardon my grammar; where is the filling of the burrito at?? B: Well, it's in between the top and the bottom. A: No further questions. is a jelly donut a sandwich?

Mets Guy in Michigan Jul 12 2016 02:48 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A: Does this burrito have a top? B: Well anyone can see... A: Just answer the question yes or no; does this burrito have a top? B: Yes. A: Does it have a bottom? B: Yes, of course. A: If the court will pardon my grammar; where is the filling of the burrito at?? B: Well, it's in between the top and the bottom. A: No further questions. is a jelly donut a sandwich? Ravioli?

metsmarathon Jul 12 2016 02:49 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

fried chicken? fish sticks?

d'Kong76 Jul 12 2016 02:52 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A list is provided to you nice gentlemen via the NYS Department of Taxation and Finance.

metsmarathon Jul 12 2016 03:01 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

interestingly, the list includes neither tapas nor tacos, but does include gyros. i consider their list inaccurate and internally inconsistent. i reject it as such as being useful in determining what is and is not a sandwich for purposes other than submitting taxes to the state of new york.

Lefty Specialist Jul 12 2016 03:02 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

I was up all night thinking about paninis. What if you had a sandwich that was pressed with extreme force and heat to transform into something else? Yes, I know it's on the New York State list, but what about Wyoming? Can the nation survive with a threadbare patchwork of sandwich definitions? What if a panini is transported across state lines?

G-Fafif Jul 12 2016 03:19 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Did Panera's argument extend to sandwich picks? [fimg=400:2uc5zpka]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/WrightMarch2016.jpg[/fimg:2uc5zpka]

Ceetar Jul 12 2016 03:39 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A: Does this burrito have a top? B: Well anyone can see... A: Just answer the question yes or no; does this burrito have a top? B: Yes. A: Does it have a bottom? B: Yes, of course. A: If the court will pardon my grammar; where is the filling of the burrito at?? B: Well, it's in between the top and the bottom. A: No further questions. is a jelly donut a sandwich? Ravioli? Both those things are stuffed. The stuffing pushes OUT against the outer part. A sandwich is one where the outer part is pressing on the stuffing, or sandwiching it between it's top/bottom.

d'Kong76 Jul 12 2016 04:15 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

Lefty Specialist wrote: What if a panini is transported across state lines? Panini transport laws, much like firearms, are tricky and vary state to state. Please consult state web-sites for more information.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jul 12 2016 05:11 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A: Does this burrito have a top? B: Well anyone can see... A: Just answer the question yes or no; does this burrito have a top? B: Yes. A: Does it have a bottom? B: Yes, of course. A: If the court will pardon my grammar; where is the filling of the burrito at?? B: Well, it's in between the top and the bottom. A: No further questions. is a jelly donut a sandwich? Ravioli? Both those things are stuffed. The stuffing pushes OUT against the outer part. A sandwich is one where the outer part is pressing on the stuffing, or sandwiching it between it's top/bottom. Good point.

themetfairy Jul 12 2016 05:29 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

G-Fafif wrote: Did Panera's argument extend to sandwich picks? [fimg=400]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/WrightMarch2016.jpg[/fimg] Hey! I recognize that sandwich pick pic!

seawolf17 Jul 12 2016 06:23 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

95% of all baseball photos were taken by either Topps photographers or TMF.

themetfairy Jul 12 2016 09:03 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

ROFL!

MFS62 Jul 14 2016 01:14 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A few years ago, I was on jury duty. We were brought in on a civil case - someone was suing a local dock-side restaurant because they slipped on the stars and claimed there was no warning sign that said the stairs could be slippery. I was asked by the defense attorney if I had ever eaten at the restaurant. When I said yes, he asked, "How was the food?" When I said "OK, I guess" I was excused from the case. I've never eaten at a Panera. I walked into one and looked at the food and the menu, which is why I've never eaten in one. Later

Vic Sage Jul 14 2016 08:56 PM Re: So, You're a Jurist

A sandwich is a food where an edible substance is stuffed between 2 bread-like substances on the top and bottom. If the bread completely encircles the food stuffing, without any openings, then there is no "top" or "bottom," and its not a sandwich; it's a roll. Wraps are open on their ends, thus "sandwiches." Open-faced sandwiches are "sandwiches" in name only, for menu purposes, but serving hot food over a slice of bread doesn't make it a sandwich. A completely folded burrito, with no opening, is not a sandwich, but a taco is. hot dogs and burgers on buns are definitely sandwiches. egg roles? no. mu-shu, yes, depending on how the pancake is folded. Gyros, yes. donuts, no. Foods that are breaded and fried? please, stop. you're embarrassing yourself.