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Ichiro 3K

Frayed Knot Aug 08 2016 12:16 AM

Ichiro tripled to RF today in Colorado to become the 30th ML'er to reach 3,000 hits - a career which famously didn't begin until age 27. I suspect he's the first to do it with a triple but I don't know that for a fact. But triple or not, he does hit the 3K Klub with the largest percentage of singles among those hits at 81.5%. Eddie Collins had led that list at 79.7%, followed by Rod Carew, Cap Anson, Tony Gwynn, Pete Rose, and Derek Jeter. Kind of cool that even that small portion of that list has a 19th century player (Anson), one from the early part of the 20th century (Collins), several from mid/late-20th century, and then the 21st century Suzuki Another guy in the news today, ARod will retire with the smallest percentage of hits as singles (59.1%), ahead of Mays, Palmeiro, Aaron, Musial, and Brett Rodriguez also will have the largest pct of his hits for HRs (22.4%) ahead of Mays, Aaron, Palmer, Eddie Murray, and Winfield. Fewest pct of HRs not surprisingly goes to the earliest members: Eddie Collins (47 of 3,315 - or 1.4%), then Nap Lajoie, Cobb, Anson, Honus Wagner, and then Rod Carew (3%) Highest pct of Doubles? -- Tris Speaker (22.5%), Craig Biggio, George Brett, Nap Lajoie, Musial

MFS62 Aug 08 2016 12:30 AM Re: Ichiro 3K

Frayed Knot wrote: Ichiro tripled to RF today in Colorado to become the 30th ML'er to reach 3,000 hits - a career which famously didn't begin until age 27. I suspect he's the first to do it with a triple but I don't know that for a fact. He's the second, joining Paul Molitor in that small club. I've always liked Ichiro, and am happy for his accomplishment. Later

themetfairy Aug 08 2016 01:29 AM Re: Ichiro 3K

Fuck you Ichiro! (Sorry - I couldn't help myself)

Mets Guy in Michigan Aug 08 2016 01:56 AM Re: Ichiro 3K Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 08 2016 01:04 PM

I've always liked him, except for when he played for the Yankees or was killing us in the All-Star Game. I loved the excitement that he brought and all the hoopla from the national and international media. It was good for baseball. Unless I'm forgetting someone, he'd be the first Asian player in the Hall, which is cool, too! Do we count Blyleven as the first European player in the Hall? Not that he ever played there.

Frayed Knot Aug 08 2016 02:23 AM Re: Ichiro 3K

Next up: - Adrian Beltre, 2,876 -- next year barring injuries and signed thru 2018 just in case - Albert Pujols, 2,773 -- probably 2018 and signed [u:1flrpch3]thru 2021[/u:1flrpch3] just in case - Carlos Beltran, 2,570 -- would need three seasons most likely and probably isn't going to get them

Lefty Specialist Aug 08 2016 12:31 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Unless I'm forgetting someone, he's be the first Asian player in the Hall, which is cool, too! Absolutely. Imagine what the induction ceremony will be like, with the crush of Japanese media and fans. You won't be able to get sushi anywhere in upstate New York that weekend.

Centerfield Aug 08 2016 01:31 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

themetfairy wrote: Fuck you Ichiro! (Sorry - I couldn't help myself) Why don't you like him metfairy? Was never a big fan of him myself. Some of it is not really his fault. I remember when he first came over, people would take digs on Shinjo and say that the Mets signed the wrong Japanese guy, blah blah blah. As if Shinjo and Ichiro were ever supposed to be on the same level. But also he seemed full of himself and douchy as compared to our loveable (if somewhat odd) outfielder. Anyway, when you root for the underdog to succeed, you can't help root that the favorite stumble. But then he some shit to say about Korea after losing to them in the WBC. After that first gen Korean Americans were pretty outspoken. Like to the level San Diegoans were mad at Ron Burgundy. Still, 3000 hits when you start that late is no joke. And he put up some amazing seasons in his prime. Terrific hitter, terrific fielder, a gun that was rivaled only by guys named "Vladimir", and a great basestealer. Still, you wonder what his place in history will be considering he never walked much and hit for no power.

themetfairy Aug 08 2016 02:30 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Centerfield wrote: Why don't you like him metfairy? It's in-law related hatred going back to his Seattle days, the Ichiro store within Safeco, etc. And I agree with you that he has a certain douchiness quality about him.

Frayed Knot Aug 08 2016 09:03 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Centerfield wrote: Still, you wonder what his place in history will be considering he never walked much and hit for no power. Not only did he (as mentioned above) have the largest percentage of singles of his 3,000 hits (81.5%) but nearly 1/4 of his hits were infield hits - acc. to BB-Ref, 699 of Suzuki's hits never left the IF, that's 23.3% of all his hits and 28.6% of his singles. Even Jeter, by contrast, was under 15% for his IF hits. Carew I suspect might be close to Ichiro (he's 3rd in pct of 1Bs) but 'Hit Location' data is only available for the most recent players.

Edgy MD Aug 08 2016 10:57 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Pete Rose is the only other player to reach 3,000 hits by his 16th season.

Gwreck Aug 08 2016 11:43 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Centerfield wrote: Still, you wonder what his place in history will be considering he never walked much and hit for no power. He's going to get in the Hall of Fame pretty easily. If you're a fan of the JAWS rankings, he comes in behind Tony Gwynn and ahead of Dave Winfield (http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_RF.shtml) among rightfielders. That seems pretty good given that he started at age 27 in MLB. If he were only a singles hitter, I agree that he would be overrated but combined with the defense and the speed (he's got 500 steals) I am comfortable with his future enshrinement in the HOF.

Zvon Aug 08 2016 11:59 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Congratulations/Fuck You Ichiro! I've always been a big fan.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 09 2016 12:16 AM Re: Ichiro 3K

Great, unique, player, and a pioneer, first-balloter in my book.

Rockin' Doc Aug 09 2016 02:16 AM Re: Ichiro 3K

I won't knock Ichiro for being a a singles hitter. He was a very good defender and base runner. The only thing he didn't do was hit for power. Ichiro seemed to be well aware of his stengths as a ball player and played to those strengths to make him a virtual lock (in my view) for the Hall of Fame. I wish the current Mets lineup had a few less low average, power hitters and could replace them with some singles hitters that could hit .300 or better and run once they were on base. Maybe then the team would get a few hits with RISP and stop living and dying primarily by the (solo) home run.

Edgy MD Aug 09 2016 11:58 AM Re: Ichiro 3K

Was that one opposite field homer an inside-the-parker as it appears here, or was a it a shorter fence than is shown?

Lefty Specialist Aug 09 2016 12:50 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

First ballot guy. No steroid taint, great defender, great arm, great speed, and had 260 hits in a season, more than anybody else ever. No doubt.

Frayed Knot Aug 09 2016 01:27 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Clearly he's HoF material, I don't think anyone doubts that. I see CF's question here (and he can certainly jump in here if I'm misinterpreting) more as one about how he ranks among the greats considering that his strengths of BA and 'counting stats' like the raw number of hits aren't as highly prized on their own as they once were. I heard one talk show, for instance, take the opportunity of them both being in the news this past weekend to toss out the question as to whether Ichiro was as good as ARod ... NO he's not as good as ARod you dummy (and, no, we're not going to do Stonehenge either). Rodriguez has more HRs among his 3.100+ hits than Ichiro does all XBHs combined and a 23 point gap in OBA despite a 19 deficit in BA And where I don't want to use the word 'over-rated' because, well because it's a silly term to begin with and because it's not what I mean anyway, but I do think there was a kind of over-emphasis of him, particularly early on, by some of those still wedded to 'old school' style stats combined with being enamored by his unique status as the first Japanese position player. Winning the MVP in his first season (albeit narrowly) over Giambi despite being on the wrong side of a 100 point gap in both OBA & SLG as an example. Not sure he deserved quite as many Gold Gloves as he got either, although rubber-stamp GG voting is certainly not a problem unique to him. Now the major question ... WTF are his stats doing nearly 100 points higher across the board this year as compared to last? What, the Marlins outfield wasn't good enough already so they had to have their 42 y/o 4th guy raise his BA by 87 points, his OBA by 106, his SLG by 100, his RC/G from 2.6 to 6.0 in the season where we're battling them for the division and the WC? And while I know he's no longer a full-time player, this is his 3rd highest OBA of his career and he's going to be 43 in two months!! I mean, WTF dude?!?!?!

Edgy MD Aug 09 2016 01:39 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

It's no small thing to consider, because there is so little precedent, but the fact that he had the equivalent of a full and spectacular career in Japan by age 26 has to be taken into account when considering his legacy. It may not be apples-to-apples to make a blanket statement that he has more total hits than Pete Rose, but it's not nothing either. He has the most career hits while playing at the highest level available to him at the time, and he's still going. It's like Babe Ruth's pitching career, or Lefty Grove in Baltimore, or Ted Williams in Korea. It's part of the story, even if it's not part of the main stat line, and the legacy is incomplete without it.

Centerfield Aug 09 2016 01:52 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Yup. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Definitely a Hall of Famer, but where will he end up among the greats? I mean, he is such a unique type of player that the opinions of him really span the whole spectrum. I've heard pretty knowledgeable baseball fans propose seriously that he was the best player in MLB during the 2000's (not true) and others say he's just Luis Castillo who stuck around for a long time (also not true). One thing I just realized about him this week, he's played 16 seasons in MLB, plus 9 in Japan. That's 25 years. He's 43. Holy crap, he was playing in the Japanese big leagues at 18 years old. And as to FK's question about his performance this year, the man is clearly juicing like every other Marlin.

Frayed Knot Aug 09 2016 02:19 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

Centerfield wrote: One thing I just realized about him this week, he's played 16 seasons in MLB, plus 9 in Japan. That's 25 years. He's 43. Holy crap, he was playing in the Japanese big leagues at 18 years old. Yeah, he had partial seasons at age 18 & 19 in the JPL (166 total PAs) then was a full-time player from age 20 on, hitting .385 in his first full year and then essentially duplicating that type of season for each of the next 17 years on both sides of the Pacific before starting to fade even slightly. And while it's always possible that he could have achieved similar results had he started in the U.S. right out of the box, I think it's unlikely that he would have made such a splash so early. Those sort of young stars seem to be more common in Japan than here so I don't think it's as simple as just adding up his hit totals from both. His Japanese league time is certainly part of the picture but not necessarily the same. And remember how they made a big fuss about how Jon Niese was born the day the Mets 1986 WS ended? Well Niese practically qualifies as a veteran now and, while I don't want to say Ichiro's been around for a long time, he was born the day after the Mets 1973 WS ended, and that's like ancient history now.

Centerfield Aug 09 2016 04:30 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

That's a great point. There is no way an 18 year old Ichiro cracks the major leagues. So if you're projecting whether he would have beat Pete Rose, you have to almost delete those first couple of years. On the other hand, Japan plays 18 games fewer every season, which multiplied by 9 years comes to exactly 162 games. But you figure he wouldn't have had as many hits during those years because the competition is higher here in the US. So, in other words, we have no idea if he would have beat Pete's record or not.

Edgy MD Aug 09 2016 04:55 PM Re: Ichiro 3K

I tend to think that, by now, he'd be close enough that he'd play on until he got it—milestone conscious as he seems to be. Besides, you just know THE ESTABLISHMENT would want him to take that record away from Stinky Pete.

Rockin' Doc Aug 13 2016 02:42 AM Re: Ichiro 3K

Centerfield wrote: ....So, in other words, we have no idea if he would have beat Pete's record or not. I'd bet on it.