Master Index of Archived Threads


Hall of Fame ballot

Jeff Bagwell

29 votes

Casey Blake

0 votes

Barry Bonds

19 votes

Pat Burrell

0 votes

Orlando Cabrera

0 votes

Mike Cameron

0 votes

Roger Clemens

15 votes

J.D. Drew

0 votes

Carlos Guillen

0 votes

Vladimir Guerrero

29 votes

Trevor Hoffman

16 votes

Jeff Kent

8 votes

Derrek Lee

0 votes

Edgar Martinez

18 votes

Fred McGriff

3 votes

Melvin Mora

1 votes

Mike Mussina

11 votes

Magglio Ordonez

0 votes

Jorge Posada

0 votes

Tim Raines

28 votes

Manny Ramirez

17 votes

Edgar Renteria

0 votes

Arthur Rhodes

0 votes

Ivan Rodriguez

25 votes

Freddy Sanchez

0 votes

Curt Schilling

9 votes

Gary Sheffield

3 votes

Lee Smith

5 votes

Sammy Sosa

8 votes

Matt Stairs

1 votes

Jason Varitek

0 votes

Billy Wagner

5 votes

Tim Wakefield

0 votes

Larry Walker

10 votes

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 21 2016 10:18 PM

The 2017 Hall of Fame ballot was announced today, with a handful of Metly options. Jeff Bagwell Casey Blake Barry Bonds Pat Burrell Orlando Cabrera Mike Cameron Roger Clemens J.D. Drew Carlos Guillen Vladimir Guerrero Trevor Hoffman Jeff Kent Derrek Lee Edgar Martinez Fred McGriff Melvin Mora Mike Mussina Magglio Ordonez Jorge Posada Tim Raines Manny Ramirez Edgar Renteria Arthur Rhodes Ivan Rodriguez Freddy Sanchez Curt Schilling Gary Sheffield Lee Smith Sammy Sosa Matt Stairs Jason Varitek Billy Wagner Tim Wakefield Larry Walker

Benjamin Grimm Nov 21 2016 10:34 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

If Melvin Mora doesn't get in, I'll never eat in this restaurant again!

d'Kong76 Nov 21 2016 11:21 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Grumpy HOF comment: I don't get who decides or why some of these guys end up even for consideration. Casey Blake? He never attended one all-star game unless it was with a ticket... Grumpy HOF comment: Can someone just decide if you're tainted you can't get in, or just put all the tainted ones in and be done with all that?

Edgy MD Nov 21 2016 11:41 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

With regards to comment one, nobody really decides. They have a rule that if you get 10 years, you make the ballot. To the extent that there is deciding going on, they have an addendum—call it the Ron Hodges Rule—that if you somehow manage to log 10 big league years or more while exclusively riding the bench (whether as a reserve offensive player or a back-end reliever on the pitching staff), you get eliminated without ever making the ballot. I don't think that addendum tends to apply to more than, perhaps, one player per year—usually backup catchers, I would guess.

Frayed Knot Nov 21 2016 11:50 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Yeah, a player who meets the basic requirements essentially has to give them a reason to be NOT included in order to not make the list. This may be the last best shot for Tim Raines as all the new ones are either not overwhelmingly worthy or are 'tainted' to one degree or another and most of the returnees are as arguable as him. Probably a good year to be Jeff Bagwell too.

d'Kong76 Nov 21 2016 11:53 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: With regards to comment one, nobody really decides. They have a rule that if you get 10 years, you make the ballot. Grumpy HOF comment: That's a dumb rule, which I suppose is my point that I didn't clearly make but geez if you're not an all-star you're not a HOF'r and putting people on the ballot like that is a waste of time and energy. Mr. Met has more HOF credentials than Casey Blake.

Edgy MD Nov 22 2016 12:09 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Does he ever! [fimg=700]http://mascothalloffame.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/ExteriorRender.jpg[/fimg]

MFS62 Nov 22 2016 12:19 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

The guy I remember who fit that description was a futility infielder who played in the AL from the mid 50's to mid 60's named Sammy Esposito. He hit a little over .200, but Phil Rizzuto used to talk about him all the time saying he "one of those good guys to have around". Later

RealityChuck Nov 22 2016 01:57 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

d'Kong76 wrote: With regards to comment one, nobody really decides. They have a rule that if you get 10 years, you make the ballot. Grumpy HOF comment: That's a dumb rule, which I suppose is my point that I didn't clearly make but geez if you're not an all-star you're not a HOF'r and putting people on the ballot like that is a waste of time and energy. Mr. Met has more HOF credentials than Casey Blake. It's part of the basic agreement with the Player's Association, who wanted a simple set of criteria so no one felt snubbed. Personally, it no big deal. The players get some egoboo, but they know they're not getting in. It's like when I made the preliminary ballot for the Nebula award -- nice to see, but I wasn't going to even be a finalist.

Edgy MD Nov 22 2016 02:35 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Should we pollarize this thread?

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 22 2016 03:33 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Should we pollarize this thread? Please do! I couldn't figure out how to go beyond 10 spots on the poll.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 22 2016 04:08 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Poll is only allowing me to select one choice, and if I can ONLY pick Matt Stairs, then Orlando Cabrera is gonna be rightfully pissed.

Edgy MD Nov 22 2016 04:50 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'll fix that nonsense. OE: Fix't. Please edit your ballots accordingly.

seawolf17 Nov 22 2016 04:59 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Voted. Remember we have to post if we voted so we know a percentage of actual voters. Bagwell Bonds (yeah, I did it) Guerrero Martinez Raines Ramirez Rodriguez Stairs (he's not ACTUALLY a HOFer, and I know that. But he's one of my all-time favorites.) Walker Someone with a convincing case for Hoffman could swing my tenth vote, and so could someone for Jeff Kent even though I don't like him.

Mets Guy in Michigan Nov 22 2016 05:25 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Posted. Vlad, Bagwell, Raines, Hoffman, Martinez.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 22 2016 05:26 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 22 2016 06:34 PM

I made an initial slate of six, holding my nose while doing so: Bonds Clemens Martinez Raines Rodriguez Schilling edit: overlooked Manny. on now. Also voted Si on Guererro.

Ashie62 Nov 22 2016 05:35 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Vladimir Guerrero Ivan Rodriguez Barry Bonds Edgar Martinez

Zvon Nov 22 2016 05:50 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Done. Bags, Hoffman, Raines, Shilling, Lee Smith. Raines getting aLotta luv.

Centerfield Nov 22 2016 06:13 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

It's getting so I'm having trouble remembering who was legitimately linked to steroids and who was rumor only.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 22 2016 06:22 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I voted for Raines and Guerrero. A lot of these guys had the majority of their career after I stopped paying attention, so if I overlooked anyone then too bad for them!

Centerfield Nov 22 2016 06:24 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I voted for Raines and Guerrero. A lot of these guys had the majority of their career after I stopped paying attention, so if I overlooked anyone then too bad for them! J.D. Drew had this great cameo in the movie Twins.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 22 2016 06:28 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Bagwell Vlad Hoffman Kent McGriff Raines Mussina Eff those other guys.

G-Fafif Nov 22 2016 06:57 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Still begrumped that Fonzie's twelve years, one All-Star appearance, one Silver Slugger and general awesomeness wasn't enough to merit him a spot on one Hall of Fame ballot. Not a vote, but a spot. Still enough in love with Melvin that I'd probably vote for him if given the chance in real life.

metsmarathon Nov 22 2016 07:16 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

bagwell bonds clemens guerrerro martinez raines ramirez rodriguez schilling walker i struggle to pull the trigger for mussina and sheffield. it's easier to not check a box next to sammy sosa's name.

bmfc1 Nov 23 2016 12:47 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Bagwell, Guerrero, Raines, Rodriguez. I have a tough time distinguishing between relievers (why Hoffman but not Smith or Wagner, or any combination thereof?).

MFS62 Nov 24 2016 04:12 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Bags Vlad Hoffman Kent Manny Pudge Smith Sosa Wagner Walker And, basically, I'd vote for anyone not named Barry Bonds or Roger Clemens. Later

Frayed Knot Nov 24 2016 04:19 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Tough to exclude Barry yet make a case for including Manny.

MFS62 Nov 24 2016 04:22 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Frayed Knot wrote: Tough to exclude Barry yet make a case for including Manny. Bonds was an asshole about it. He elicited anger when he was discussed. It was always "Manny being Manny" and brought a smile to everyone's face. Plus, he's my homey from upper Manhattan (Washington Heights). That gets him my love. And the vote has always been about who the voter thinks should get into the Hall. Later

Chad Ochoseis Nov 25 2016 04:16 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Ramirez, Walker I don't like the fact that players used steroids in the '90s. Given that MLB turned a blind eye to it until they were shamed into enforcing their rules by the Mitchell Report though, I wouldn't make steroids a complete bar to HOF admission. The HOF includes sportsmanship as a criterion, and I think of sportsmanship as a deciding factor in borderline cases like Andre Dawson. Steroids = poor sportsmanship. So I'm fine with keeping a borderline HOFer like Mark McGwire out. But Bonds, Ramirez, and Clemens aren't borderline cases. Tim Raines isn't on my ballot. He was really good. But the way you get to be the second best leadoff hitter of your era is by not being quite as good as the better middle of the order hitters. Just for grins, I compared Larry Walker's batting stats outside Coors Field to Raines' total career stats. Walker still comes out slightly better than Raines. And this comparison puts Walker at a huge disadvantage by removing his home stats from age 28-36, which would have likely been his most productive numbers no matter where he played. I didn't see Walker play enough to say anything about his defense, but BBRef gives him a much higher dWAR, and he did win 7 Gold Gloves (for what that's worth). My memory of Raines is that he could make the catches, but had a weak arm. Both of them had long careers, and both of them were injury-prone. So I can't see voting for Raines and not Walker. Walker Excluding Coors Raines PA 5529 10359 AB 4771 8872 R 800 1571 H 1346 2605 HR 229 170 RBI 790 980 SB 156 808 CS 60 146 BB 627 1330 BA .282 .294 OBP .372 .385 SLG .501 .425 I could be convinced on Pudge. And Edgar Martinez.

Gwreck Nov 26 2016 05:09 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Bagwell Bonds Clemens Guerrero Martinez Mussina Raines Ramirez Rodriguez Walker I would have also voted for Curt Schilling if room allowed on the ballot, no matter what a colossal idiot he is.

Edgy MD Nov 26 2016 05:32 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

So, how many have submitted ballots here. I'm one. The problem with these polls is we don't get a denominator. I guess we can just use the highest number as a denominator. Or put up polls in which the first selection is "Check this box if you are voting." Stinks.

Zvon Nov 26 2016 07:34 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

seawolf17 wrote: Voted. Remember we have to post if we voted so we know a percentage of actual voters. Edgy MD wrote: So, how many have submitted ballots here. I'm one. The problem with these polls is we don't get a denominator. I guess we can just use the highest number as a denominator. Or put up polls in which the first selection is "Check this box if you are voting." Stinks. Who hasn't owned up? I'm three.

Edgy MD Nov 26 2016 08:55 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

If we go by 15 total ballots cast, the Crane Pool has elected three Hall-of-Famers: Candidate Votes PCT Vladimir Guerrero 15 100% Jeff Bagwell 13 87% Tim Raines 13 87% Edgar Martinez 10 67% Ivan Rodriguez 10 67% Manny Ramirez 8 53% Barry Bonds 7 47% Trevor Hoffman 7 47% Roger Clemens 6 40% Jeff Kent 5 33% Curt Schilling 5 33% Larry Walker 5 33% Mike Mussina 3 20% Lee Smith 3 20% Billy Wagner 2 13% Fred McGriff 1 7% Gary Sheffield 1 7% Sammy Sosa 1 7% Matt Stairs 1 7% Casey Blake 0 0% Pat Burrell 0 0% Orlando Cabrera 0 0% Mike Cameron 0 0% J.D. Drew 0 0% Carlos Guillen 0 0% Derrek Lee 0 0% Melvin Mora 0 0% Magglio Ordonez 0 0% Jorge Posada 0 0% Edgar Renteria 0 0% Arthur Rhodes 0 0% Freddy Sanchez 0 0% Jason Varitek 0 0% Tim Wakefield 0 0%

Rockin' Doc Nov 27 2016 01:36 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Jeff Bagwell Vladimir Guerrero Trevor Hoffman Mike Mussina (my borderline case) Tim Raines Ivan Ridriguez

Fman99 Nov 27 2016 03:29 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I voted for eight guys who, interestingly, happen to be the eight guys leading the vote tally here. Bagwell Bonds Vlad Edgar Martinez Raines Manny Pudge Larry Walker I excluded some guys because they seem to be assholes. This may be part of the reason why I don't get a real life vote.

Edgy MD Nov 27 2016 04:06 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm a big backer of Schilling, asshole though he may be.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 27 2016 06:53 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: I'm a big backer of Schilling, asshole though he may be. Same. Bagwell Bonds Clemens Vladdy Kent Edgar M Manny Pudge Raines Schilling

d'Kong76 Nov 27 2016 03:32 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Voting late, putting some cheaters in to be done with it... Bagwell Bonds Clemens Guerrero Hoffman Kent Martinez Raines Smith Sosa Schilling can take lessons in fine dining from Ripken before he gets my vote.

seawolf17 Nov 27 2016 07:12 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I would rather vote for Clemens than Schilling.

Gwreck Nov 27 2016 09:32 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Chad Ochoseis wrote: So I'm fine with keeping a borderline HOFer like Mark McGwire out. In a world without steroids, McGwire is only a "borderline" hall-of famer? I have a tough time with that. He's #13 all-time in adjusted OPS.

Gwreck Nov 27 2016 09:33 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

seawolf17 wrote: I would rather vote for Clemens than Schilling. I agree, and there's no doubt that Clemens is more "deserving" anyway. I would vote for them both.

HahnSolo Nov 27 2016 10:50 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I voted

Edgy MD Nov 27 2016 11:10 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

It's still looking like a three-man class. Raines and Guerrero (the latter a little less likely) would join Gary Carter as players with Expo insigniae on their Hall of Fame plaques. And I imagine they would be the last, unless Bartolo Colón gets in and the Expos pull a big upset with the committee. I frankly don't know what hat they'd outfit Colón with—hopefully a flying batting helmet. But Larry Walker would almost certainly be wearing a [fimg=12:3hoartlc]https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/44/e1/35/44e135ad09f75fcfaa008ab28ac31f2c.jpg[/fimg:3hoartlc].

Vic Sage Nov 28 2016 06:37 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm voting for 10, all of whom put up numbers over the average HOFers at their positions, without consideration of accused steroid use: 1. Barry Bonds 2. Roger Clemens ___________ 3. Jeff Bagwell ---------- 4. Edgar Martinez 5. Manny Ramirez 6. Curt Schilling 7. Mike Mussina 8. Ivan Rodriguez 9. Tim Raines 10. Vladimir Guerrero --------- 10a. Larry Walker [ranked a drop below Guerrero, only because of injuries and Coors factor. I would vote for him next year, if slot were available]

Edgy MD Nov 28 2016 06:44 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

That ballot appears to leave Pudge just one vote out of the money. I salute anybody who has a career like his. Continued consistent quality excepting one brief stop in the Bronx where he gave his worst performance of his career. The José Cruz Award. These men are fine Americans, even when they aren't Americans.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 28 2016 06:53 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I had completely forgotten that Tim Raines was ever a Yankee. Even having been reminded of it, I still don't remember it at all.

Edgy MD Nov 28 2016 06:59 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

His tenth year on the ballot. It's borderline scandalous.

86-Dreamer Nov 28 2016 09:07 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I voted: Bonds Clemens Bagwell Rodriguez Raines Mussina Schilling Kent Walker Vladimir

sharpie Nov 28 2016 09:15 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, Mussina, Raines, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Sosa, Walker

Edgy MD Nov 28 2016 09:15 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

All Rodriguez needs is one voter to change his or her vote (or the next three ballots to include him).

Chad Ochoseis Nov 28 2016 10:50 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

He's in.

Edgy MD Nov 29 2016 12:27 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Yeah! Four-man class!

Chad Ochoseis Nov 29 2016 01:44 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

He had more good years than I realized. His offensive production fell off the table after age 32, but that's not bad for a catcher. And I try not to penalize players who "stay too long" and hurt their average stats by becoming useful late-career part time players instead of retiring. As long as they're not stinking it up every day in a starting role (looking at you, Derek Jeter) and still making contributions above the replacement level, there's no reason not to stay around.

Vic Sage Nov 30 2016 09:39 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

here's a general question: If you voted in this poll, which of your candidates received the fewest votes from your fellow Poolers? Now make an argument for that player. I'll go first. Mike Mussina - my initial impulse on Moose was "NOPE", but though i hate to admit it, he was one of the best and most consistent pitchers in the AL for almost 2 decades, ranking in the top 10 in baseball for 11 years by a wide range of metrics (including WAR, ERA+, WPA), and top 5 for at least 5 seasons, not to mention 7 gold gloves. His numbers compare favorably with many current HOFers (whether using JAWS, HOF monitor, or black ink test). No, his peak wasn't as dominant as some, but he's easily in the range of pitchers like Glavine, Marichal, Drysdale, Sutton, and Schilling (who also deserves to be in). If elected, he would be an above-avg HOFer, not dragging down the bar. Yes, he's more about sustained excellence than brief greatness, but there is a wing of the HOF for that type of player, too. your turn.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2016 10:40 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I voted for Billy Wagner. Wait, this isn't the Alpaca Hall of Fame?

MFS62 Nov 30 2016 11:24 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I also voted for Wagner, so I'll go for my second least voted choice: Lee Smith. He was the all-time saves leader during the era in which he pitched. And he wasn't just a pampered "closer". In those days, some saves were earned by pitching multiple innings. Later

Rockin' Doc Dec 01 2016 05:04 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Like Vic, I also voted for Mike Mussina. So much of this will will be a less eloquent rehash of Vic's reason's for supporting Mussina. Mussina was consistently one of the better and more reliable pitchers in the American League during his 18 seasons. His peripherals statistics (ERA, ERA+, WHIP, & SO/W) were among the best in the AL during his career. He fielded his position well (7 Gold Gloves), but most importantly, he won far more games than he lost (270-153 63.8%) during his career.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 01 2016 05:52 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Schilling and Kent. What's the matter with you lib'ral lezzies?

duan Dec 01 2016 12:21 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Billy Wagner. I think he's a considerable tier above the likes of Lee Smith and to my mind was there or there abouts the best reliever in the game for an extended period. Everything about his performance was elite and while I actually didn't really like him playing for the Mets I'm choosing not to hold that against him. He was better then Hoffman, and as I voted for Hoffman too, I felt I had to vote for Wagner.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2016 01:37 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

That's pretty much where I was, I guess. I suppose I don't have to feel good about it. Hey, look, Edgar Martinez is up to 68%.

MFS62 Dec 01 2016 01:45 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Schilling and Kent. What's the matter with you lib'ral lezzies? I voted for Kent, too. Nothing to do with politics - he was very good. Later

Frayed Knot Dec 01 2016 01:46 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

You can take micro-analysis like this too far in some cases, but the fact that Mussina put up his numbers pitching against the mostly power-stacked lineups in hitter-friendly parks of the AL East during the offense-happy 1990s/2000s works in his favor too.

seawolf17 Dec 01 2016 02:36 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Vic Sage wrote: If you voted in this poll, which of your candidates received the fewest votes from your fellow Poolers? Now make an argument for that player. Fun challenge. I voted for Matt Stairs as my baseball doppelganger, not as a serious candidate. But rules are rules. Pinch-hitting is perhaps the most misunderstood skill in all of baseball. Spending several innings on the bench each game, chewing gum and spitting, then suddenly to be called on in a spot where your manager says "I need a guy who can get things going RIGHT NOW, and the guy I'm supposed to send up there right now isn't that guy." Well, did you know, my fellow Poolers, who hit more PH home runs than any other player in the HISTORY OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL? I'll give you a hint. It's Matt Stairs, with 23 over his career. With the expansion of baseball over the past fifty years, more fans in more parts of the US and Canada have found teams to call "home." And yet, no modern Hall of Famer played for more than nine different teams, and such, how reflective can the Hall really be of today's game of free agency and player movement? But there's one guy on this year's ballot who got paychecks from TWELVE different major league franchises... and his name starts with "M" and rhymes with "Bat Stairs." There are plenty of Hall of Famers who have never won a World Series. But Matt Stairs not only won a ring with the 2008 Phillies (boo), but he did it while hitting to a 1.250 OPS, including a game-winning pinch-hit home run (!!) in Game 4 of the NLCS. In 1999, Ivan Rodriguez won a very close MVP race in the American League. However, considering that several players who received votes that year were steroid users and should be disqualified (Rodriguez, Manny, Palmeiro, Giambi, A-Rod), two had already won an MVP award (Griffey, Juan Gonzalez), two were pitchers (Pedro, Mariano), two played in Canada (Green, Delgado), three were middle infielders (Alomar, Nomar, Vizquel), one was a MFY (Bernie Williams), and one sucks (Jeter)... the case could be made that the player who finished 17th in the voting should have actually won. That was Matt Stairs. DID YOU KNOW? For a guy not known for his fielding prowess, Matt Stairs made only 40 errors in his entire career. Hall of Famer Pee Wee Reese made 47 errors HIMSELF in 1941 alone. In 2001, Cubs manager Don Baylor sensed that one of his players was a threat to Baylor's legacy as one of the greatest DHs of all time; so late in a blowout June loss to Arizona, he inserted that player at second base, even though he'd never played second base before. Unfortunately, for Baylor, that player played one flawless, chanceless inning of defense, and is now a Hall of Fame candidate... Matt Stairs. Among all right fielders in major league history, Matt Stairs is 169th all time in JAWS. Fellow right fielder Whitey Herzog, however, somehow made it to the Hall despite being 311th all time. Stairs finished his career with 265 home runs, which ties him for 191st all time. There's a certain former shortstop who played across town for a good chunk of his career who's going to get a lot of Hall press when he becomes eligible, despite ONLY hitting 260. Born in Canada, Stairs' 19 seasons is the most of any Canadian player, and his 265 homers are second all time. He also ranks second all-time among Canadians in games (1,895) and walks (717) and third in RBI (899) and doubles (294), and is just one of four Canadians to play for both the Expos and Blue Jays. I rest my case.

d'Kong76 Dec 01 2016 03:09 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 01 2016 03:18 PM

I thought mine was Sosa but it's Lee Smith. I don't know how much of a case I can make as relievers seem to have trouble getting in. Smith was the most dominant reliever for almost two decades and was the all-time saves leader for at least a dozen years. VOTE SMITH - Make Relieving Great Again!

Benjamin Grimm Dec 01 2016 03:15 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mine is Tim Raines.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2016 03:20 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

As cherry picked as it may be, that case for Matt Stairs was more compelling than I expected.

Nymr83 Dec 01 2016 06:30 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

i just voted. Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Jeff Bagwell Sammy Sosa Manny Ramirez Curt Schilling Mike Mussina Ivan Rodriguez Tim Raines Vladimir Guerrero I would consider Walker and Edgar if I had another vote. I don't think any of the relievers should get in over the hitters/starters, but taking them in isolation i'd barely put Wagner in and barely keep Hoffman out, Lee Smith is very overrated. my lowest are Schilling - I expect thats just a bunch of people voting against him for non-baseball reasons - and Sosa. if you're going to ignore the ROIDS he is a clear-cut HOFer, and if not, why did you vote for Bonds?

Chad Ochoseis Dec 01 2016 08:18 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Born in Canada, Stairs' 19 seasons is the most of any Canadian player, and his 265 homers are second all time. Second to LARRY FRIGGIN' WALKER, today's birthday boy. And I believe Walker's 17 seasons are second only to Stairs. I made my case for Walker in my original post, but in a nutshell, .313/.400/.565 are absolute, no-questions-asked HoF offensive numbers, even putting aside 7 Gold Gloves and 230 SBs. The only argument you can make against him is that his offensive stats are purely a Coors creation. They're Coors-inflated, of course, but the non-Coors stats I calculated in my original post are still borderline HoF, and by excluding Coors, they exclude his age 28-36 home stats. Make some estimates as to what those stats would have been in a neutral ballpark, and you've still got a Hall of Famer. Or, you could just look at the 141 OPS+. I don't completely trust park adjustments, so I didn't give the OPS+ much weight. Speaking of OPS+, though, Sammy Sosa's is 128. That's in Rusty Staub/Norm Cash/Don Mattingly territory - very much on the border. And I lived in Chicago in the 90's and saw a lot of Sosa on the field. He was abysmal at the stuff that doesn't show up in statistics. I'm not talking about Jeteresque "intangibles"; I'm talking about taking first pitches when your team is behind and you need runners on base, catching baseballs with both hands, throwing to the correct base, etc. The Tom Emanski fundamentals. He sucked at them. So I can leave out Sosa with a clear conscience. Gwreck mentioned Mark McGwire, whom I said I wouldn't have voted for. He's off the ballot now, so the question is moot. But the points made in his favor are good ones; McGwire is a tough call.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 01 2016 08:29 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

seawolf17 wrote: Vic Sage wrote: If you voted in this poll, which of your candidates received the fewest votes from your fellow Poolers? Now make an argument for that player. In 1999, Ivan Rodriguez won a very close MVP race in the American League. However, considering that several players who received votes that year were steroid users and should be disqualified (Rodriguez, Manny, Palmeiro, Giambi, A-Rod), two had already won an MVP award (Griffey, Juan Gonzalez), two were pitchers (Pedro, Mariano), two played in Canada (Green, Delgado), three were middle infielders (Alomar, Nomar, Vizquel), one was a MFY (Bernie Williams), and one sucks (Jeter)... the case could be made that the player who finished 17th in the voting should have actually won. That was Matt Stairs. All of it great, but this one got me the most.

seawolf17 Dec 01 2016 09:55 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: As cherry picked as it may be, that case for Matt Stairs was more compelling than I expected. Can't wait for the induction ceremony.

Frayed Knot Dec 01 2016 10:19 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Stairs has kind of a cool backstory too. Born in the Canadian Maritimes -- St. John, New Brunswick to be precise, a Canadian who wound up playing for both Canadian teams -- he lived much of his career in that well-known habitat for wintering ballplayers: Bangor, Maine. And as if Maine itself isn't odd enough, Bangor isn't one of those coastal, southern / 'oh isn't this a nice vacation spot' / still within Boston's orbit part of Maine. Oh, Hell No, it's in way-the-fuck-up-there part of inland Maine where when your drive from NYC hits New Hampshire it means you're close to halfway there. Towards the end of his career Stairs spent his off-seasons in Bangor coaching high school ice hockey which I believe included at least one of his own kids (or, Hell, he played until age 43, maybe he was coaching his grandkids). He's also pretty decent on the Philly telecasts where he does part-time work. That said, he's not getting into the HoF

Edgy MD Dec 01 2016 10:26 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

seawolf17 wrote: With the expansion of baseball over the past fifty years, more fans in more parts of the US and Canada have found teams to call "home." And yet, no modern Hall of Famer played for more than nine different teams, and such, how reflective can the Hall really be of today's game of free agency and player movement? But there's one guy on this year's ballot who got paychecks from TWELVE different major league franchises... and his name starts with "M" and rhymes with "Bat Stairs." Also wore nine different numbers, by my count. Suck it, Jeff McKnight.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 02 2016 01:26 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

My least popular vote is for Curt Schilling. He's become an absolute dick, I mean about the worst guy imaginable, but during his career he was ironically known for power and great control. 15th all-time in strikeouts and 3rd best career in whiff-to-walk ratio. Pitched for 20 years and took 3 different teams to the World Series, winning twice, tremendous MFY killer and memorable opponent, 6 time all-star, slightly above average HOFs in all the comparative monitors

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2016 01:49 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

The only real 'knock' on Schilling is that the second half of his career was a lot better than the first*, a scenario which probably helps him with the voters because the better half is fresher in their minds. Guys who go in the opposite direction [Mattingly, Dale Murphy] tend to leave the opposite impression as they're seen as not living up to their early HoF pace while we rarely if ever hear mention of the fact that it took a while for Schilling's career to get going or be anything close to consistent and was on his way to getting an 'underachiever' label stamped on his forehead. * 52 wins over the nine ML seasons in his 20's, 20 of those wins in just two years. Only after that did he kick it into gear as the next eight seasons (ages 30 - 37) were his 'Peak' years: 132 wins; six times 200+ IP (only twice in his 20s); six AS teams; three 2nds and a 4th in CY voting, plus all the post-season heroics.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2016 02:52 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

His second half was indisputably better, but he was also damn good in the first half, just (a) less consistent from season to season, and (b) doing it for some dreadful Phillie teams, so not accumulating wins. He and David Wells are evidence that control on the mound doesn't always correlate with personal control.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 02 2016 04:16 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I saw a comparison the other day showing that Mussina's stats are pretty similar to Glavine's, less Glavine's 300 wins and Mets glow and plus MFY taint, and I mean the worst kind, where they want to wear a MFY cap on the plaque. There are enough undeserving Yankees in the Hall.

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2016 04:23 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Schilling had one real good year early on (1992 - at age 25) and a couple of partial good ones, but mainly he just wasn't on the field enough in his 20s. A part-time reliever early on as he was swapped from Baltimore to Houston and then on to Philly, even when switched to a starter he topped 30 starts only once that whole first decade (and 20+ only two others). But starting at age 30 he averaged over 30/year for nearly a decade and had dominate results to go with it.

Nymr83 Dec 02 2016 06:25 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mussina loses my vote if hes not going in with a retro Orioles hat.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2016 01:20 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I think we have 28 ballots with Bagwell and Vladwell each named on 27.

Nymr83 Dec 02 2016 09:42 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

who are the Pudge nay-sayers? he is an all-time great catcher - top 5 at the position!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 03 2016 07:04 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Nymr83 wrote: who are the Pudge nay-sayers? he is an all-time great catcher - top 5 at the position! Superlative defender, and an excellent offensive player for a decade. I don't get how he isn't first-ballot, honestly.

MFS62 Dec 03 2016 03:04 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: I think we have 28 ballots with Bagwell and Vladwell each named on 27. OK, I'll 'fess up. I'm a vter who didn't vote for Raines. Yes, he was a good player for an extended period of time. But if you had awakened me in the middle of the night at any time during his career and asked me to name the top 5 players in the game, I don't think I would have named him. Yes. he complied some outstanding numbers, but he just didn't hit me as being an all- time great while he was playing. Like Dennis Miller said, "Its just my opinion and, I may be wrong". Later

Edgy MD Dec 03 2016 03:51 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm not sure that top-fiveyness should be the standard. In the game? Well, I certainly have no problem making the argument that he was one of the top five players in the National League at any point between 1983 and 1987. I mean, he may have occasionally fallen to seventh during a given month in that period. But I'd bet, over those five years overall, he accumulated as many fWARs as anybody. He may well have been the second-best leadoff hitter of all time, a lofty claim to fame which is obscured by the reality that the best was virtually his exact contemporary, and didn't spend the second half of his career fighting lupus.

Edgy MD Dec 03 2016 03:59 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Here you go. NL fWAR Leaders, 1983–1987 1) Tim Raines, MON: 32.6 2) Mike Schmidt, PHI: 31.2 3) Dale Murphy, ATL: 26.4 4) Gary Carter, MON/NYM: 25.9 5) Tony Gwynn, SDP: 25.6 6) Keith Hernandez, STL/NYM: 25.5 7) Ozzie Smith, STL 24.1 8) Ryne Sandberg, CHI: 21.6 9) Pedro Guerrero, LAD: 20.8 10) Bill Doran, HOU: 20.3 If you go league-wide, three American Leaguers finish ahead of him: Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken, and (naturally) Ricky Henderson. But that still suggests he's one of the top five players in either league, and the best in the National League, over a meaningful period of time. I could also include pitchers in there. The leading pitcher, as far as fWAR, over that period is Dwight Gooden, with 26.5

seawolf17 Dec 03 2016 04:03 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Here you go. NL fWAR Leaders, 1983–1987 1) Tim Raines, MON: 32.6 2) Mike Schmidt, PHI: 31.2 3) Dale Murphy, ATL: 26.4 4) Gary Carter, MON/NYM: 25.9 5) Tony Gwynn, SDP: 25.6 6) Keith Hernandez, STL/NYM: 25.5[/bigpurple] 7) Ozzie Smith, STL 24.1 8) Ryne Sandberg: 21.6 9) Pedro Guerrero: 20.8 10) Bill Doran: 20.3 If you go league-wide, three American Leaguers finish ahead of him: Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken, and (naturally) Ricky Henderson. But that still suggests he's one of the top five players in either league, and the best in the National League, over a meaningful period of time. I could also include pitchers in there. The leading pitcher, as far as fWAR, over that period is Dwight Gooden, with 26.5

SteveJRogers Dec 03 2016 09:47 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Nymr83 wrote: who are the Pudge nay-sayers? he is an all-time great catcher - top 5 at the position! Superlative defender, and an excellent offensive player for a decade. I don't get how he isn't first-ballot, honestly. He does seem to have more "substantial" PED "taint" than Piazza did (named in Canseco book, teammate of users in Texas, deflated and power numbers "decreased" with the advent of testing, etc).

batmagadanleadoff Dec 03 2016 09:57 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Here you go. NL fWAR Leaders, 1983–1987 1) Tim Raines, MON: 32.6 2) Mike Schmidt, PHI: 31.2 3) Dale Murphy, ATL: 26.4 4) Gary Carter, MON/NYM: 25.9 5) Tony Gwynn, SDP: 25.6 6) Keith Hernandez, STL/NYM: 25.5 7) Ozzie Smith, STL 24.1 8) Ryne Sandberg, CHI: 21.6 9) Pedro Guerrero, LAD: 20.8 10) Bill Doran, HOU: 20.3 If you go league-wide, three American Leaguers finish ahead of him: Wade Boggs, Cal Ripken, and (naturally) Ricky Henderson. But that still suggests he's one of the top five players in either league, and the best in the National League, over a meaningful period of time. I could also include pitchers in there. The leading pitcher, as far as fWAR, over that period is Dwight Gooden, with 26.5 Wow. I played the 1985 Strat-O-Matic set quite a bit in the late '80's, and always a NL only draft league. To this day, I'm quite familiar with the '85 NL, which is the middle year of that '83-'87 range. All those guys on that list were drafted in every '85 set league I played. I wonder where Jack Clark and Darryl Strawberry rank on that list? I bet they're near misses. I'm also surprised that Carter's on that list given his big fade after the '86 season. Or maybe not, because this being fWAR, I'd guess that before he faded, the gap between Carter and the next best catcher might've been the biggest at any given position. I can assure you that that was the case in '85. Carter was always the #1 overall pick in the '85 draft leagues I played. He certainly wasn't the best player available, but you really had to have him because the drop-off in quality between Carter and the next best catcher was chasm-like.

Edgy MD Dec 04 2016 06:00 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Among NL position players, Strawberry would be 11th, and Jack Clark 15th. If you count pitchers, Straw would be 15th, and Clark 22nd. I think lack of competition among catchers is a big part of Carter's ranking. As much as he was dropping off, no catcher had sustained success during that period, and a lot weren't even playing regularly enough. Carter stayed healthy. In 1985, only five catchers qualified for the batting title. Here's how they ranked that year. Rank Name Team G PA Off Def WAR 1 Gary Carter Mets 149 633 27.4 16.3 6.7 2 Mike Scioscia Dodgers 141 526 23.0 12.9 5.5 3 Terry Kennedy Padres 143 565 -9.4 19.1 2.9 4 Tony Pena Pirates 147 587 -16.6 21.7 2.5 5 Jody Davis Cubs 142 536 -7.7 13.7 2.4 6 Mark Bailey Astros 114 402 11.4 -2.0 2.4 7 Ozzie Virgil Phillies 131 483 5.4 0.1 2.2 8 Darrell Porter Cardinals 84 284 3.7 7.2 2.1 9 Alan Ashby Astros 65 216 8.4 -2.8 1.4 10 Bo Diaz Phillies/Reds 77 263 -3.8 5.0 1.0 11 Bob Brenly Giants 133 505 -1.6 -6.9 0.9 12 Bruce Bochy Padres 48 120 1.3 -0.2 0.5 13 Darren Daulton Phillies 36 119 -0.5 1.6 0.5 14 Alex Treviño Giants 57 179 0.5 -3.1 0.4 15 Junior Ortíz Pirates 23 76 -0.9 1.2 0.3 But, hey, if it's 1985, I pick Dwight Gooden first, every time. 1985!

batmagadanleadoff Dec 04 2016 05:27 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Two things: 1) Mark Bailey was an under the radar stealth find in '85. He was a short career scrub, but in 1985, he had his career year. 10 HR's in 332 AB's playing in The Astrodome, no less ... Bailey was also a walking machine that season, on-basing just a snip under .400. Going by memory, I'd rate him no lower than the 4th best NL catcher of '85, and maybe as high as 3rd -- at least in an S-O-M league, anyways. 2) If the 1985 season played out in 2016, today's baseball awards voters would have made Dwight Gooden the MVP. And it would have been a fucking landslide. Thanks for the chart.

Frayed Knot Dec 07 2016 09:45 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

One under the radar note from this week's winter meetings is the revelation that all future HoF ballots will be made public.

Vic Sage Dec 07 2016 10:05 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

excellent. Now we can chastise with impunity.

Nymr83 Dec 08 2016 01:01 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

SteveJRogers wrote: LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Nymr83 wrote: who are the Pudge nay-sayers? he is an all-time great catcher - top 5 at the position! Superlative defender, and an excellent offensive player for a decade. I don't get how he isn't first-ballot, honestly. He does seem to have more "substantial" PED "taint" than Piazza did (named in Canseco book, teammate of users in Texas, deflated and power numbers "decreased" with the advent of testing, etc). Canseco said so? who gives a fuck his teammates used? so did everyone else's! deflated numbers didnt just coincide with testing, they coincided with being a fucking catcher who crouched behind the plate every day - all the good catchers hit that decline

MFS62 Dec 08 2016 02:55 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

But the Hall did itself proud this time. Very Proud. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/claire-smi ... 32969.html Later

Nymr83 Dec 08 2016 04:56 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Vic Sage wrote: excellent. Now we can chastise with impunity. this is an excellent change - would love to see some of the dumber ballots getting publicly shredded to pieces

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 08 2016 05:15 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Nymr83 wrote: Nymr83 wrote: who are the Pudge nay-sayers? he is an all-time great catcher - top 5 at the position! Superlative defender, and an excellent offensive player for a decade. I don't get how he isn't first-ballot, honestly. He does seem to have more "substantial" PED "taint" than Piazza did (named in Canseco book, teammate of users in Texas, deflated and power numbers "decreased" with the advent of testing, etc). Canseco said so? who gives a fuck his teammates used? so did everyone else's! deflated numbers didnt just coincide with testing, they coincided with being a fucking catcher who crouched behind the plate every day - all the good catchers hit that decline There was a lot of talk here about the year he came to spring training looking considerably less bulked up. [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/25/sports/baseball/the-tigers-rodriguez-is-now-a-svelte-pudge.html?_r=0 If the writers made Piazza wait because one writer accused him of bacne, then you have to figure that they'll make Rodriguez wait a couple years, too. Plus, he was a Yankee.

SteveJRogers Dec 08 2016 05:42 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: If the writers made Piazza wait because one writer accused him of bacne, then you have to figure that they'll make Rodriguez wait a couple years, too. Plus, he was a Yankee. Part of me also wonders if a good number of the writers who left Piazza off their ballot over the course of his four years on the ballot, did so more wait for Rodriguez to go in before Piazza. Stupid reasoning, based on Piazza retiring 4 seasons before Rodriguez did (who many probably would place over Piazza when talking all-time great backstops), but there have been stranger reasons not to vote for someone!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 16 2016 07:24 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Interesting argument for the neglected one of Canada's Favorite HoF Candidates here from Fangraphs' Paul Swydan. Walker hit well at Coors Field because he was capable of hitting well everywhere. This shows up in the stats that strip out the bias inherent with ballparks, wRC+ chief among them. For their careers, Walker was a better hitter than Guerrero by wRC+, 140 to 136. Whether you want to give full credit to these ballpark adjustments, they’re not so wrong as to be completely discounted. The bottom line is that there is no argument that Walker was a far inferior hitter to Guerrero... Even at the tail end of Walker’s career, when he had endured eight surgeries and it hurt for him to turn his head to the left, Walker still had a better arm than Guerrero... The notion that Walker was less durable doesn’t exactly square with what we see in the innings played column. Walker played in the field for far longer than did Guerrero, who started 508 games at DH — more than three seasons’ worth. The reason why is clear when you look at the error totals. Guerrero’s 125 errors are eye-popping. During his career, Guerrero was charged with 46 more errors than any other outfielder. In the Integrated Era (1947-present), only eight outfielders have been charged with more errors. To say he was mistake-prone is a gigantic understatement.

Frayed Knot Dec 16 2016 07:49 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I thought during his career that the praise of Vlad's OF defense was often vastly over-blown. It seemed to me that so many were impressed by the strength of his arm that they simply ignored how often he either air-mailed his throws way off the intended mark or that he was seemingly so eager to set-up his next throw to unleash that he occasionally forgot the part about having to actually field the ball first.

Edgy MD Dec 16 2016 08:49 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

There's a bias in those error totals, too, though. Guys with weaponized arms get more errors than guys without, and often ones they don't particularly deserve. Best way to avoid errors: Field and throw as little as possible.

Nymr83 Dec 16 2016 10:41 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: There's a bias in those error totals, too, though. Guys with weaponized arms get more errors than guys without, and often ones they don't particularly deserve. Best way to avoid errors: Field and throw as little as possible. Also known as "The Jeter Plan"

Valadius Dec 22 2016 12:05 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

For those who haven't been following this, Ryan Thibodaux's annual ballot tracker is here: [url]http://bit.ly/bbhof2017 Big storylines this year: -Bagwell and Raines appear set for induction -Pudge has a decent shot at first-ballot induction -Vlad and Hoffman are on the bubble -Bonds and Clemens picking up significant support in light of Bud Selig's induction; seems only a matter of time before they get in -Edgar Martinez making a big move, possibly as voters assess his candidacy vs. David Ortiz -Mussina and Larry Walker are picking up votes -Manny will debut far short of induction; Posada may not survive the first ballot -Time has run out on Lee Smith -Schilling is hemorrhaging support

Frayed Knot Dec 22 2016 12:45 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

How's Hillary doing ... still comfortably ahead?

Nymr83 Dec 22 2016 02:59 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Frayed Knot wrote: How's Hillary doing ... still comfortably ahead? Thread over, FK wins.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2016 05:21 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

If Bonds and Clemens get in, I'll never go to Cooperstown again. (I say this knowing that even if they don't get in, I'll probably never go to Cooperstown again anyway.)

Ceetar Dec 22 2016 06:13 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: If Bonds and Clemens get in, I'll never go to Cooperstown again. (I say this knowing that even if they don't get in, I'll probably never go to Cooperstown again anyway.) I kinda feel the opposite, I've lost a lot of desire to go UNTIL they're inducted.

Lefty Specialist Dec 22 2016 07:13 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I went this year for the Piazza induction. I'll go for the next Met induction. Which may be a problem because I'm not seeing anything coming up until I'm kinda old.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2016 07:20 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm not sure what Beltran's chances are. After that, maybe Cespedes? (Typing this with my fingers crossed, which isn't easy!)

Edgy MD Dec 22 2016 07:26 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Beltran, Kent, Hodges, Wagner, Johnson. Keep rootin'! Upcoming Ballot Additions [list]2018: Liván Hernandez, Jason Isringhausen 2019: Darren Oliver 2020: Bobby Abreu 2021: Michael Cuddyer[/list:u] Totally gonna keep my fingers crossed for the next couple of years over that Darren Oliver candidacy.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 22 2016 07:37 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: If Bonds and Clemens get in, I'll never go to Cooperstown again. (I say this knowing that even if they don't get in, I'll probably never go to Cooperstown again anyway.) The museum part is worth going to, even if you choose to ignore the plaque room. Lots of Mets stuff last time I was there.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2016 07:43 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I know, but I've been there three times and I only really enjoyed it the first two times. I think that my reverence for baseball has declined to a point where I'm no longer too stirred up by seeing a lot of old bats, shoes, and gloves.

seawolf17 Dec 22 2016 07:45 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Lefty Specialist wrote: I went this year for the Piazza induction. I'll go for the next Met induction. Which may be a problem because I'm not seeing anything coming up until I'm kinda old. "You rang?" (Sorry. I'll stop.)

86-Dreamer Dec 22 2016 08:09 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

i love that HOF tracker. Anyone else look to find a ballot that exactly matched theirs? No exact match for me - closest was Pat Caputo. he listed 9, including all of my selections except Vlad. Me, Caputo and someone named Bill Plunkett are the only ones that think both Larry Walker and Jeff Kent should be bronzed.

Nymr83 Dec 23 2016 02:59 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Beltran - if you look at him as a Centerfielder, and he'll end his career having played more than half his games there and doing a good job of it, he's behind probably only Griffey in the last 40 years. career, he is 65th on the bbref war list - the guys above him who arent in? Bonds, Arod, Pujols, Beltre, Chipper, Bagwell, Rose, Bill Dahlen, Whitaker, Thome, some scrub SS for the Yankees, Walker, Palmiero, and Bobby Grich Steroids or other cheating aside, there is no argument about Bonds Arod Pujols Chipper Bagwell Rose Palmiero Beltre and the Yankee scrub SS. Thome was a real defensive liability but i think hes in. Dahlen played his last game in 1911, pretty hard to compare there. Whitaker and Grich were both second basemen who were good for long enough but i'd argue never GREAT players, it probably didnt help that they both spent their entire careers in american league cities that nobody cared about and before the advent of interleague play and sports center and were off the ballot before the sabermetrics revolution could save them. I think Beltran is A shoe-in.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 23 2016 03:30 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Beltran SHOULD be a shoe-in. Even with the advancements in defensive metrics and a younger electorate, though... it'll likely be trickier than you think.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2016 03:31 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Even after bringing next to nothing the last two years, he's one of the all-time great post-season players. He's part of a very small class in that regard.

Frayed Knot Dec 23 2016 03:52 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I have the suspicion that younger voters will see enough to appreciate Beltran's rare combination of OBA & power mixed with CF and base-running skills, but it may be that post-season history which gains him just enough support from the remaining 'old school' voters because I get the feeling there are a segment of those who otherwise don't view him as *Star* enough for Cooperstown.

Nymr83 Dec 23 2016 03:54 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Even after bringing next to nothing the last two years, he's one of the all-time great post-season players. He's part of a very small class in that regard. I didnt even think of that! and yeah, that is something that should help sway the old fogies. unfortunately, i'll only ever remember one pitch Beltran saw in the postseason

Edgy MD Dec 23 2016 02:03 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Cool Stat That's Kinda Hard to Contextualize but is not Unmeaningful: Carlos Beltran has never been caught stealing more than eight times in a season. On his crazy run of greatness, when he came over to Houston for the last 90 games of 2004, he stole 28 bases without getting caught a single time.

Frayed Knot Dec 23 2016 02:29 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

An 86.4% career SB rate (better than Rickey, better than Raines, better than Cobb, Much better than Brock) is crazy good for a guy with 300+ total. And if someone wants to argue it's a 'protected' number because he hasn't really attempted to steal since 2008 or so well that's part of the point, that once he sensed he was no longer going to be good enough at it to help his team he quit trying*, a point I'm afraid will get lost on those old-schoolers who still value 'counting stats' as more=better devoid of any context. And, btw, Beltran's "next to nothing" last two years averaged out to two seasons of: 142 Games Played (134 Starts), 515 ABs, .286/.337/.493, 33.5 Doubles, 24 HRs, 80 RBI, 65 RS, 120 OPS+ Now that was about 1/4 as a DH and 3/4 as a mediocre (or worse) corner OF and not as the stud CF he once was, but when those are your 38 & 39 seasons you're not doing too badly. * 2009-2016 in total = 37 of 49

Edgy MD Dec 23 2016 03:20 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Frayed Knot wrote: And, btw, Beltran's "next to nothing" last two years averaged out to two seasons of: 142 Games Played (134 Starts), 515 ABs, .286/.337/.493, 33.5 Doubles, 24 HRs, 80 RBI, 65 RS, 120 OPS+ I wasn't particularly clear in my sentence construction, but I was referring to his post-seasons.

Nymr83 Dec 23 2016 03:57 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Important Question: When will baseball reference replace that ugly photo of Beltran in a Yankees jersey?

metsmarathon Dec 23 2016 04:45 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

good god. just looking at the CF JAWS leaders... among players not yet in the hall of fame, carlos beltran is the number 1 CF (57.3 JAWS), followed by criminally undervoted kenny lofton (55.7), and andruw jones (54.6). then come jim edmonds (51.4), willie davis (49.6), jim wynn (49.4), and some guy named after a fish (48.5 in only 6 seasons). that's fairly outstanding.

Nymr83 Dec 23 2016 05:27 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Andruw Jones is a tough one! Edmonds feels right to me, but aren't they the same player? Jones fell off the map early but you forget he was playing CF at age 19! Edmonds first full season wast until 24.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2016 06:52 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I tend to think Jones was such an impressive defender in his early 20s that folks didn't appreciate that he faded early and kept winning Gold Gloves well after he deserved them. Of course, I don't know how that factors into JAWS. I don't know how much I suspect about his power being genuine, but it sure disappeared after mandatory testing was installed. Funny how the top three centerfielders on the outside all became Yankees after their legs were shot.

Ceetar Dec 23 2016 07:28 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: I tend to think Jones was such an impressive defender in his early 20s that folks didn't appreciate that he faded early and kept winning Gold Gloves well after he deserved them. Of course, I don't know how that factors into JAWS. I don't know how much I suspect about his power being genuine, but it sure disappeared after mandatory testing was installed. Funny how the top three centerfielders on the outside all became Yankees after their legs were shot. I don't think the concept of padding HR numbers in Yankee Stadium is lost on them.

Valadius Dec 23 2016 09:12 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Kenny Lofton may be the poster child for how ridiculous the 10-man limit is. There have been over 10 people that I would consider to be Hall of Famers on the ballot going back half a decade, largely because of the steroid-era glut. You shouldn't be forced to pick only 10. If you believe that they belong, you should be able to vote for them. That a player of his caliber only got one year of consideration is almost criminal.

Edgy MD Dec 24 2016 04:53 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Lou Whitaker is my pick for the greatest one-and-done player. I'm not sure if you'd conclude there was a glut on the ballot that year, but two guys went in, both in their first year of eligibility, and five other eventual Hall-of-Famers appeared on the ballot.

Valadius Dec 27 2016 03:08 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Over a quarter of the vote is in. Bagwell - 93.0% Raines - 91.2% Pudge - 83.3% Vlad - 76.3% Hoffman - 74.6% Bonds - 70.2% Clemens - 70.2% Edgar - 66.7% Mussina - 60.5% Schilling - 50.9% Manny - 32.5% Smith - 30.7% Walker - 23.7% McGriff - 13.2% Sosa - 12.3% Kent - 11.4% Sheffield - 11.4% Wagner - 11.4% Posada - 5.3%

Edgy MD Dec 27 2016 05:21 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Wow, I guess there's a lot more gap in between Hoffman's career and Wagner's than I can see.

Mets Guy in Michigan Dec 27 2016 02:15 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Valadius wrote: Over a quarter of the vote is in. Bagwell - 93.0% Raines - 91.2% Pudge - 83.3% Vlad - 76.3% Hoffman - 74.6% Bonds - 70.2% Clemens - 70.2% Edgar - 66.7% Mussina - 60.5% Schilling - 50.9% Manny - 32.5% Smith - 30.7% Walker - 23.7% McGriff - 13.2% Sosa - 12.3% Kent - 11.4% Sheffield - 11.4% Wagner - 11.4% Posada - 5.3% I'm surprised that Vlad is so low.

Nymr83 Dec 27 2016 07:12 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Wow, I guess there's a lot more gap in between Hoffman's career and Wagner's than I can see. the gap in ability goes in the other direction, though Hoffman certainly lasted longer (not as much as i thought, though the innings gap ~180 is significant for relievers)

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Dec 29 2016 05:06 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Wagner was far more dominant at his peak (edging Mariano in spots) AND overall. Smith whips Hoffman in counting stats, except for the one. So, yeah, this is the reliever equivalent of a "300 win club" vote-- Sutton over Blyleven, eg. Hell, it's almost Sutton over Koufax.

Edgy MD Dec 29 2016 05:10 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Notable that Clemens and Bonds have the exact same totals, as the case for ("no doubter on the stats") and against ("but he used") is exactly the same.

Nymr83 Dec 29 2016 07:23 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Notable that Clemens and Bonds have the exact same totals, as the case for ("no doubter on the stats") and against ("but he used") is exactly the same. yeah, any other case against them would need to be non-baseball - Bonds was a dick to reporters but generally considered to be well-liked and kind to fans. Clemens was supposedly a jerk to everyone.

Valadius Dec 30 2016 06:33 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mike Puma released his ballot this morning. Bagwell Bonds Clemens Guerrero Martinez Mussina Raines Rodriguez Schilling Wagner Those are new votes for Bagwell, Martinez, Mussina, Raines, Schilling, and Wagner from last year. Guerrero and Rodriguez are newcomers to the ballot, of course, which puts Puma in the strange position of having Bonds and Clemens be his only holdovers from last year's ballot.

Edgy MD Dec 30 2016 06:55 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Way to wake up for Raines, Mike. Interesting that he's in the minority placing Robert Wagner over Dustin Hoffman.

Vic Sage Jan 04 2017 04:54 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

i had almost same ballot as Puma, except that i included Manny over Wagner.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 04 2017 10:12 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 01:59 AM

.

Nymr83 Jan 05 2017 02:26 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

The Posada part is puke-inducing, but he makes this good point on the difference between Bonds and Clemens: 2) on the integrity/character issue, Bonds finishes above Clemens, at least for me. Clemens was accused of lying under oath with no regard to his trainer or his trainer’s life, and he and his well-paid lawyers threw dirt all over the guy who had no choice but to tell the truth to investigators I really don't remember if Bonds did anything similar, but if not its fair to say you voted for Bonds and not Clemens because Clemens dragged people down with him in a d-bag manner.

Edgy MD Jan 05 2017 03:21 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I agree with him that the less-than-5% rule is arbitrary and has destroyed more than a few worthy candidacies before anybody really thought about them. I find the case for Posada compelling. What hurts his case badly is Joe Girardi—for starting ahead of him at the beginning of his career and for benching him at the end.

Frayed Knot Jan 05 2017 04:06 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Nymr83 wrote: I really don't remember if Bonds did anything similar, but if not its fair to say you voted for Bonds and not Clemens because Clemens dragged people down with him in a d-bag manner. Barry's trainer/lackey [Greg(?) Anderson] went to prison for his refusal to tattle on his buddy - so one could argue that both stars put a big chunk of the burden on their hand-picked little guy so that they could slide. One suspects - and HOPES -- that he was handsomely compensated by Bonds for his silence but of course we'll find Jimmy Hoffa before we'll find a paper trail on that one.

Edgy MD Jan 05 2017 08:48 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Also notable is that the case against Rodriguez with regard to being a user is stronger than the case against Bagwell, and possibly stronger than the case against Piazza, but he's looking like a first-ballot guy. Attitudes are changing.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 06 2017 03:37 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 01:59 AM

.

seawolf17 Jan 06 2017 02:27 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm coming around on the whole thing. Despite my vicious hatred for Roger Clemens, I feel like you have to put him in there. Bonds too. It's just not a representative Hall without them.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2017 02:40 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

One problem is that, if you accept the commonly accepted timelines with regard to usage for the two guys, Bonds was already more or less the best hitter in baseball when he began using in the 1998-1999 offseason in response to the breathless coverage of the McGwire-Sosa race. Clemens, on the other hand, was sliding toward Palookaville when he began using before joining the Blue Jays and reviving his career. The ten most similar players to Clemens at that juncture (Hall of Famers noted with an *) were: [list=1:2rotin22][*:2rotin22]Dwight Gooden[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Bob Welch[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]CC Sabathia[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Tom Glavine*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Bob Gibson*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Tom Seaver*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Lon Warneke[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Greg Maddux*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Justin Verlander[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Jack Morris[/*:m:2rotin22][/list:o:2rotin22] If you think of his most likely career track without the dope being something like an average of these players, it's still an open question what kind of career he'd've ended up with. Four Hall of Famers are on that list and two guys still active. And I'm not saying some of those latter-day players didn't use. Now, Barry Bonds thru 33 gives us a more starlit, albeit messier, set: [list=1:2rotin22][*:2rotin22]Frank Robinson*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Ken Griffey*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Duke Snider*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Vladimir Guerrero[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Juan Gonzalez[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Jeff Bagwell[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Jim Thome[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Mickey Mantle*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Willie Mays*[/*:m:2rotin22] [*:2rotin22]Manny Ramirez*[/*:m:2rotin22][/list:o:2rotin22] Five Hall-of Famers, plus a couple of guys who should skate in. A lot of other drug-clouded guys, but this could be eight or nine guys in a few years, maybe 10 eventually. Anyhow, that's one way to distinguish them, if you're of a mind to distinguish them.

seawolf17 Jan 06 2017 02:41 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

So we should keep Clemens out? Okay. SORRY SUCKA

Nymr83 Jan 06 2017 03:11 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

seawolf17 wrote: So we should keep Clemens out? Okay. SORRY SUCKA Clemens should be kept out until he tells the truth about the bat shard incident

Valadius Jan 08 2017 06:04 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Murray Chass submitted a blank ballot, because he's a gigantic douche.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2017 11:15 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 02:00 AM

.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 08 2017 11:16 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jan 08 2017 11:23 PM

Murray Chass submitted a blank ballot, because he's a gigantic douche. Absolutely unacceptable. Thank you, Mr. Chass. We're going to strip you of your vote and give it to someone who gives a damn. [url]http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/01/08/murray-chass-intentionally-turned-in-a-blank-hall-of-fame-ballot/ Chass' column: [url]http://www.murraychass.com/?p=10495

Ashie62 Jan 08 2017 11:19 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: seawolf17 wrote: I'm coming around on the whole thing. Despite my vicious hatred for Roger Clemens, I feel like you have to put him in there. Bonds too. It's just not a representative Hall without them. But then what about Pete Rose, who clearly had a gambling addiction, now recognized as a mental wellness problem? I agree although it may be be too progressive for many to accept.

Nymr83 Jan 09 2017 12:07 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: seawolf17 wrote: I'm coming around on the whole thing. Despite my vicious hatred for Roger Clemens, I feel like you have to put him in there. Bonds too. It's just not a representative Hall without them. But then what about Pete Rose, who clearly had a gambling addiction, now recognized as a mental wellness problem? Gambling on games in which you are a participant does more harm to the credibility of the game than drugs ever could.

Frayed Knot Jan 09 2017 12:41 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Steroids were also much more of a gray area during most of that (pre-2003) period. Nothing uncertain about either the legality of, or the punishment for, gambling within MLB.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2017 02:17 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Hard to speak about Pete Rose's gambling problem as a thing of the past.

MFS62 Jan 09 2017 02:24 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Murray Chass submitted a blank ballot, because he's a gigantic douche. Absolutely unacceptable. Thank you, Mr. Chass. We're going to strip you of your vote and give it to someone who gives a damn. [url]http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/01/08/murray-chass-intentionally-turned-in-a-blank-hall-of-fame-ballot/ Chass' column: [url]http://www.murraychass.com/?p=10495 Since the admission is based on percent of votes cast, his actions could theoretically deprive a player who is just short of the 75% needed for induction. As the writer said, if he doesn't like the system, he should find a way to improve it. Chass hole. Later

Valadius Jan 11 2017 05:00 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

We're up to 191 ballots, or about 44% of the expected vote. Raines and Bagwell seem to have cleared the threshold for induction. Raines needed 20 new votes and has picked up 25, while Bagwell needed 12 and has picked up 16. It's going to be very close for Pudge, Vlad, and Hoffman. Closers, for whatever reason, seem to do better on non-public votes, while Pudge and Vlad are facing the (frankly, idiotic) "first-ballot" question. Pudge, of course, also has Jose Canseco's book to deal with. Raines - 91.6% Bagwell - 91.1% Pudge - 80.1% Vlad - 74.3% Hoffman - 73.3% Edgar - 67.5% Bonds - 64.4% Clemens - 63.9% Mussina - 61.3% Schilling - 52.4% Smith - 29.3% Manny - 25.1% Walker - 23.6% McGriff - 16.2% Kent - 13.1% Sheffield - 12.6% Wagner - 11.5% Sosa - 9.9% Posada - 4.2%

seawolf17 Jan 11 2017 05:11 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Would love to see Posada fail to crack 5%.

Edgy MD Jan 11 2017 05:53 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm being foolish, allowing myself to get very excited for Tim Raines.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 11 2017 10:23 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 01:58 AM

.

Nymr83 Jan 11 2017 10:49 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Encouraging to see Edger Martinez getting closer to 70 percent. Bodes well for eventual selection. I still don't know about him. its a tough sell.

Valadius Jan 17 2017 06:40 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

The announcement is at 6 PM tomorrow. Over half of the ballots have been made public. Many of the ballots released in the past few days have been inexplicable, including one from AP's Canadian Bureau chief Rob Gillies that only contains Guerrero and Walker, and one from ESPN's Pedro Gomez, which consists of Hoffman, McGriff, Mussina, and Smith. The Cleveland Plain Dealer's Bill Livingston signed and sent back a blank ballot, but now says he thought that was how you abstain from voting. (It isn't.) It does appear that many of the "first-ballot" purist votes have been revealed in the past couple of days, as Pudge and Vlad's chances have been trending down. Raines - 89.8% Bagwell - 88.4% Pudge - 78.2% Hoffman - 72.4% Vlad - 72.0% Edgar - 66.2% Bonds - 62.7% Clemens - 61.8% Mussina - 59.1% Schilling - 51.1% Smith - 30.2% Manny - 23.6% Walker - 23.1% McGriff - 17.3% Kent - 15.6% Wagner - 11.6% Sheffield - 11.1% Sosa - 9.3% Posada - 4.4%

Vic Sage Jan 17 2017 06:57 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

i thought the rise of the Quants would have an effect on HOF voting, but seeing Hoffman at 72% and Wagner at 11% (when it should probably be the reverse) makes me think we're not as far along as i thought.

metsmarathon Jan 18 2017 02:24 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Valadius wrote: ...that only contains Guerrero and Walker, ... which consists of Hoffman, McGriff, Mussina, and Smith. these voters realize, don't they, that not voting for one guy doesn't help, in any way, the guy(s) you are voting for. they're not being compared against each other, but against the total number of ballots received. it would be a far different (and, ooh, much more interesting - so voting for one player on your ballot would carry more weight than voting for ten players!) story if you needed to receive a certain percentage of the total number of votes cast to receive enshrinement. so for instance, if the standard was to carry 10% of the vote, last year, both griffey (12.5%) and piazza (10.44%) would've still gotten in, but the prior year, only randy johnson (11.55%) and pedro (10.82%) would've gotten in, leaving smoltz (9.84%) and biggio (9.82%) out in the cold, presuming voting remained the same. a lower standard of 9% would've seen bagwell (9.01%) join the club last year, though that "9%" seems more arbitrary than a round "10%" aaanyways... back to the thread.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 18 2017 02:54 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm guessing just Raines and Bagwell, with Pudge and Vlad and maybe Hoffman getting in next year. Wouldn't want Murray Chass to have to sit through too many induction speeches. (And yes, that was one of his reasons for not voting for too many players.)

Valadius Jan 18 2017 03:22 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Wouldn't want Murray Chass to have to sit through too many induction speeches. (And yes, that was one of his reasons for not voting for too many players.) To be clear, he submitted a blank ballot with the full intention and knowledge that it counted.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 18 2017 06:12 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Valadius wrote: Mets Guy in Michigan wrote: Wouldn't want Murray Chass to have to sit through too many induction speeches. (And yes, that was one of his reasons for not voting for too many players.) To be clear, he submitted a blank ballot with the full intention and knowledge that it counted. Yup. Awful.

Valadius Jan 18 2017 06:16 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Here are all of the Post's ballots. Larry Brooks (9): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Larry Walker Don Burke (8): Jeff Bagwell, Vladimir Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, Billy Wagner Brian Costello (10): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Vladimir Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, Curt Schilling, Gary Sheffield, Sammy Sosa Ken Davidoff (10): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, Curt Schilling, Larry Walker Mark Hale (10): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Vladimir Guerrero, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, Curt Schilling, Larry Walker Kevin Kernan (10): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Trevor Hoffman, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, Curt Schilling, Gary Sheffield George A. King III (9): Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Vladimir Guerrero, Trevor Hoffman, Mike Mussina, Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, Gary Sheffield, Sammy Sosa Mike Puma (10): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Vladimir Guerrero, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, Curt Schilling, Billy Wagner Joel Sherman (9): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Vladimir Guerrero, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Ivan Rodriguez, Curt Schilling Mike Vaccaro (10): Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Vladimir Guerrero, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Tim Raines, Manny Ramirez, Ivan Rodriguez, Billy Wagner George Willis (10): Jeff Bagwell, Vladimir Guerrero, Jeff Kent, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mike Mussina, Jorge Posada, Tim Raines, Gary Sheffield, Lee Smith Totals (out of 11): Jeff Bagwell — 10; Ivan Rodriguez — 10; Barry Bonds — 9; Roger Clemens — 9; Edgar Martinez — 9; Vladimir Guerrero — 8; Mike Mussina — 8; Tim Raines — 8; Curt Schilling — 6; Manny Ramirez — 5; Gary Sheffield — 5; Trevor Hoffman — 4; Billy Wagner — 3; Larry Walker — 3; Jeff Kent — 2; Fred McGriff — 2; Sammy Sosa — 2; Jorge Posada — 1; Lee Smith — 1

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 07:06 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Montréalaise favorite memory of Tim Raines is his comeback game against the Mets in 1987, after being forced to sit out the first month of the season due to collusion. Also, Expo hats were multi-colored on the inside, too. Jonah Keri, author of a book about the Expos titled Up, Up, & Away: “I watched it on TV. It was May 2, 1987 and 1986 was the offseason when owners colluded against the players and Raines and (Andre) Dawson both got hosed. Dawson goes to the Cubs, Raines goes back to the Expos, and there’s an obscure rule that’s triggered because he signed so late that he has to sit out the first month of the season. He’s not even allowed to train with the team, so he has to go to a local high school team (in Florida) to work out — obviously not the best way to prepare for a major-league season. I’ve asked Raines about this on a number of occasions and he said he was terrified. In batting practice, he said he couldn’t hit the ball out of the cage, he kept fouling balls off. He was so nervous … more nervous than for his major-league debut, more nervous than for any other game in his career. Raines comes around third base (after hitting his grand slam) and you see the guys in the dugout bowing to him. It was just an incredible thing. One of the great moments in Expos history.”

Ceetar Jan 18 2017 08:11 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

lol. Russo's an idiot [tweet:2hacaa89]https://twitter.com/MLBNetwork/status/821805661692497921[/tweet:2hacaa89]

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 08:41 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Chris, use your inside voice.

Frayed Knot Jan 18 2017 08:52 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Chris, use your inside voice. That IS his inside voice.

MadDog Jan 18 2017 09:16 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Chris, use your inside voice. That IS his inside voice. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! BARRY BONDS IS! A! HALL! OF! FAMER! ---six seconds of awkward silence-- SAY SOMETHING FUNNY, MIKE!

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 18 2017 09:22 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Welcome back, you goofy idiot, you.

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 09:48 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Chris, use your inside voice. That IS his inside voice. And you're telling me people listen to that? Voluntarily? And somehow maintain their mental stability? It explains Trump, I guess.

Ashie62 Jan 18 2017 10:50 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I'm officially going with Raines, Bagwell and Hoffman.

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 10:54 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 11:02 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Jeff Bagwell ... ! ... and ...

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 11:03 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

... Tim "Torrential" Raines!

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 11:04 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

... Ivan Rodriguez (announced in Spanish!)!

seawolf17 Jan 18 2017 11:05 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Good class. All good picks.

Edgy MD Jan 18 2017 11:06 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Only the second catcher (after Bench) elected on the first ballot. Yogi Berra wtf?

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 18 2017 11:10 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 01:57 AM

.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 18 2017 11:39 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 01:57 AM

.

Mets Guy in Michigan Jan 18 2017 11:59 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 01:24 AM

.

Lefty Specialist Jan 19 2017 12:05 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Good for Raines. And Pudge and Bagwell means that the logjam is breaking on Steroid Suspected but never Proven guys. I think the ballot being public influenced a lot of voters. Vlad will get in next year, as he should.

Frayed Knot Jan 19 2017 12:44 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I believe the total public ballot thing doesn't begin until next year - although certainly more and more writers are making theirs public and the interwebs help spread local ballots to a larger audience. JEFF BAGWELL - 86.2 TIM RAINES - 86.0 IVAN RODRIGUEZ - 76.0 TREVOR HOFFMAN - 74.0 VLADIMIR GUERRERA - 71.7 EDGAR MARTINEZ - 58.6 ROGER CLEMENS - 54.1 BARRY BONDS - 53.8 MIKE MUSSINA - 51.8 CURT SCHILLING - 45.0 LEE SMITH - 34.2 MANNY RAMIREZ - 23.8 LARRY WALKER - 21.9 FRED McGRIFF - 21.7 JEFF KENT - 16.7 GARY SHEFFIELD - 13.3 BILL WAGNER - 10.2 SAMM SOSA - 8.6 ----------------------- JORGE POSADA - 3.8 MAGGIO ORDONEZ - 0.7 EDGAR RENERIA - 0.5 JASON VARITEK - 0.5 TIM WAKEFIELD - 0.2 ... and a whole bunch of zeroes: CASEY BLAKE (I have no memory of Casey Blake), PAT BURRELL, ORLANDO CABRERA, MIKE CAMERON, JD DREW, CARLOS GUILLEN, DERREK LEE, MELVIN MORA, ARTHUR RHODES, FREDDY SANCHEZ, MATT STAIRS

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 19 2017 01:09 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Casey Blake. Played for the Indians I wanna say, and Dodgers. Played outfield and third base. Had a beard. Wore No. 1. A kind of second rate leadoff guy.

seawolf17 Jan 19 2017 01:36 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Casey Blake. Played for the Indians I wanna say, and Dodgers. Played outfield and third base. Had a beard. Wore No. 1. A kind of second rate leadoff guy. I don't remember him as a leadoff guy. Remember him more as a Ty Wigginton/Travis Fryman type. Corner infielder, had some pop, probably struck out and grounded into double plays a lot. How he got on the ballot and Fonzie didn't is a mystery, the more I think about it.

MFS62 Jan 19 2017 02:00 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

seawolf17 wrote: How he got on the ballot and Fonzie didn't is a mystery, the more I think about it. Fonzie played 12 years, the last was 2006. He should have been on the ballot in 2011 (or 2012, I forget how they calculate the 5 year thingie). Was he? Later

seawolf17 Jan 19 2017 02:25 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

MFS62 wrote: seawolf17 wrote: How he got on the ballot and Fonzie didn't is a mystery, the more I think about it. Fonzie played 12 years, the last was 2006. He should have been on the ballot in 2011 (or 2012, I forget how they calculate the 5 year thingie). Was he? Later No. He never got consideration at all, which is so weird.

d'Kong76 Jan 19 2017 02:32 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I mentioned Casey Blake in like the third post of this thread lol.

Edgy MD Jan 19 2017 04:00 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Dawson, Sandberg, Murray, Puckett, Gwynn, Rice, Gossage, Alomar, Sutter, Perez ... All are contemporary (at least somewhat contemporary) Hall-of-Famers that Tim Raines had a better career than. The list probably isn't finished, either.

Gwreck Jan 19 2017 06:27 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Looks like Hoffman and Guerrero are set up for next year, and will go in with Thome and Larry Jones. I do hope Edgar gets in by year 10.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 19 2017 07:15 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2017 01:58 PM

I feel like we'll be getting some pretty persistent MFY-fan bitching over the next decade or two about Posada getting the one-year/one-finger treatment.

Ceetar Jan 19 2017 01:44 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

still no Bonds huh? then the Hall is still a poor representation of the best of baseball and I just don't care about it.

MFS62 Jan 19 2017 02:20 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I feel like we'll be getting some pretty persistent MFY-fan bitching over the next decade or two about Posada getting the one-year/one-finger treatment. And for the next decade or two I will be feeling Schadenfreude about Posada. Too bad the votes for a lousy fielding shortstop and a pitcher who never threw a complete game will interrupt that euphoria. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 19 2017 02:23 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Ceetar wrote: still no Bonds huh? then the Hall is still a poor representation of the best of baseball and I just don't care about it. Trending steadily upward, though, with another 9.5% jump. Next year in Generic White Squeeze Bottles and Clear Vials! What bugs me, somewhat stupidly? Why there are still more Clemens votes thsn Bonds ones (if by a smaller margin this round). Is it lingering reporter grudges, with an unspoken garnish of blackness? If not, what makes someone give the guy with the slightly lesser record a pass on the morality/integrity-of-the-game stankpile?

Ceetar Jan 19 2017 02:27 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Alan Robinson voted for Bonds, McGriff, Raines, and Pudge

MFS62 Jan 19 2017 02:29 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Bagwell is the first player from Connecticut to make it into the Hall since two guys who played in the 1800's made it. (Heard their names on tv this morning but don't remember them). He was born in Boston, but his family moved to CT when he was one year old. And, according to the local sports reporter, he was a better hockey and soccer player than a baseball player at Xavier High School in Midddletown. Later

Edgy MD Jan 19 2017 03:05 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Darren Rovell wanted Alan Zinger, and got Jeff Bagwell instead.

Valadius Jan 19 2017 03:27 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

David Schoenfield of ESPN.com takes a crack at predicting every induction class until 2045. He has Thor getting inducted in 2044.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 19 2017 03:38 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Valadius wrote: David Schoenfield of ESPN.com takes a crack at predicting every induction class until 2045. He has Thor getting inducted in 2044. I'll be 81 years old!

MFS62 Jan 19 2017 11:01 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

David Schoenfield of ESPN.com takes a crack at predicting every induction class until 2045. He has Thor getting inducted in 2044. I'll be 81 years old! I'll be 101. Here's an interesting take on how Raines finally got in on his 10th try. A good read. https://www.yahoo.com/sports/news/how-t ... 16589.html Later

Frayed Knot Jan 21 2017 02:48 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I had completely forgotten that Tim Raines was ever a Yankee. Even having been reminded of it, I still don't remember it at all. Then you probably remember even less that Ivan Rodriguez was one as well. A trade deadline pickup in 2008, he wound up doing not much at all while getting less than 100 ABs over the final two months as that year's MFY team missed the playoffs for the first time in 14 seasons. All of which leaves us with the following questions: When are the number retiring ceremonies in the Bronx for Raines & Pudge and will they also get plaques?

Edgy MD Jan 21 2017 02:54 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Shit, that enhanced Rodriguez' legacy with me. I wanted to retire his number in Flushing. The fact that he continued to play for three more seasons as an adequate part-timer after giving the Yankees the worst two months of his life—that was gravy.

G-Fafif Jan 21 2017 03:51 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Jeter taught them both how to win. Bagwell, too, presumably.

Frayed Knot Jan 21 2017 03:54 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Shit, that enhanced Rodriguez' legacy with me. I wanted to retire his number in Flushing. The fact that he continued to play for three more seasons as an adequate part-timer after giving the Yankees the worst two months of his life—that was gravy. So you're saying only Raines goes into C-Town with a Yanqui hat from this year's bunch?

batmagadanleadoff Jul 26 2017 07:23 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

The title tells you exactly what the Kenny Lofton-centric article (linked below) is about. There's even a John Olerud sighting in there, and some long overdue recognition (I know how sacrilegious this is gonna be to baseball fans of a certain generation) about how overrated Lou Brock is/was as a HOF'er. Hall-Of-Fame Careers That Cooperstown Never Gave The Time Of Day https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ha ... me-of-day/

Edgy MD Jul 26 2017 07:48 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Yeah, I don't like the erase-the-guy-forever rule. Guys with 50% or more should return to the ballot the next year, guys with 30-49.9% should return in two, etc. So maybe five years later, voters would get a new chance to look at Lofton, or my favorite one-and-done snub, Lou Whitaker.

MFS62 Jul 27 2017 02:29 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Here's a guy I think deserved some HOF support. (I might have mentioned him before) https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... bo01.shtml His OPS+ of 139 and his career 55 OWAR should put him in the conversation. Unfortunately, he played in an era when voters looked at a .300 career BA as a requirement for serious HOF consideration. I first noticed him when the late John Brittain of BP wrote about him. And he seems to compare very well with some of the players on the list in the article Edgy provided. I'd like to see the Veterans Committee take another look at his career, Later

Nymr83 Jul 27 2017 11:50 AM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, I don't like the erase-the-guy-forever rule. Guys with 50% or more should return to the ballot the next year, guys with 30-49.9% should return in two, etc. So maybe five years later, voters would get a new chance to look at Lofton, or my favorite one-and-done snub, Lou Whitaker. not counting guys who were banned from baseball or still have eligibility I think the two biggest snubs are Lou Whitaker and Alan Trammel. Kenny Lofton and Jim Edmonds also deserved a lot more consideration than they were given.

Vic Sage Aug 07 2017 05:26 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

I don't know that Alan Trammel was "snubbed". He was on the ballot for ... what... 15 years?, and he didn't get elected. He may well have been deserving (i came around to that position in his later years on the ballot), but that's different than being 1-and-done, without ever really getting a shot to have your case made, like Whitaker and Lofton.

Edgy MD Aug 07 2017 06:03 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

White privilege.

41Forever Aug 07 2017 06:16 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: White privilege. [url]https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2001.shtml Not excusing the HOF voters, by any means. Whitaker should have been given a longer ride. That 2001 ballot was stacked, with seven players on it eventually enshrined -- Winfield, Puckett, Carter, Rice, Sutter, Gossage and Blyleven -- and several others whom I wouldn't be shocked get in eventually -- Jack Morris, Dave Concepcion, Mattingly -- through the Vets, or whatever the HOF calls its non-writer process these days. The writer-created logjam hurt players like Whitaker. Also that mindset where some guys don't vote for anyone in their first year of eligibility. There is hope here that Trammell and Whitaker go in together next year. [url]http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2016/10/03/trammell-whitaker-could-enter-hof-together-2018/91499610/

Edgy MD Aug 07 2017 06:54 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Don't most ballots contain about seven guys who will eventually get in? Picking a few random years, 1991 had nine guys who would eventually get in, and 1981 had 11. And among all those guys on that ballot you describe as "stacked," Whitaker was second in WAR.

41Forever Aug 07 2017 07:21 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Don't most ballots contain about seven guys who will eventually get in? Picking a few random years, 1991 had nine guys who would eventually get in, and 1981 had 11. And among all those guys on that ballot you describe as "stacked," Whitaker was second in WAR. Like I said, I'm not defending the voters. People here all assumed the guy was a Hall of Famer. No way should he have been a one-and-done guy.

seawolf17 Aug 07 2017 10:33 PM Re: Hall of Fame ballot

41Forever wrote: several others whom I wouldn't be shocked get in eventually -- Mattingly NO. Not before Keith. Eff that.