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Mookie/Mikey

Bret Sabermetric Mar 01 2006 10:28 AM

fast/slow smile/mope homeboy/ hired gun

MFS62 Mar 01 2006 01:57 PM

OK, I'll play Black/White Leadoff/ Cleanup Switch hitter/ fill in your own line here Later

MFS62 Mar 01 2006 01:57 PM

Oops, had weird computer stuff happen. Later

Centerfield Mar 01 2006 02:37 PM

Uma Oprah. Oprah Uma.

Elster88 Mar 01 2006 04:08 PM Re: Mookie/Mikey

Bret Sabermetric wrote: fast/slow smile/mope homeboy/ hired gun *sigh*

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 03:10 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 02 2006 09:54 AM

What, you think Mikey could beat Mookie in a footrace or something? Not even if Mookie was dead and spotted Mikey a head start. I'm just saying that these two ballplayers seem as opposed as two popular Mets could ever be. I haven't even gotten to the "Wears World's Championship Team ring/Wears ankle bracelet" yet.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 05:29 AM

Or "Famous for avoiding inside pitch in Series/famous for not avoiding inside pitch in Series" Actually, I've always wondered about Mookie's avoidance of that pitch that got past Gedman in '86 (just before his notorious E-3 to Buckner). If you recall, a pitch came low and inside and Mookie somehow moved fast enough and agilely enough to avoid an HBP.. A run scored from 3b (Mitchell, I think) when it got past Gedman, and Knight moved up a base, allowing him to score on the E-3. In retrospect, avoiding Stanley's pitch was positively brilliant baseball. But, not in retrospect, was it even good baseball? Could Mookie have known that the pitch would get past Gedman, and runners move up a base? Did Mookie know that him reaching base was pointless (his run was irrelevant) or did he just get out of the way of the pitch on instinct? Casey Stengel famously lost his temper when (I think) Elio Chacon got out of the way of a pitch that if it had been an HBP would have won a game for the 1962 Mets, and offered a reward to anyone who intentionally got hit by a pitch (I think Rod Kanehl scored big points with Casey for taking one for the team.) Normally it's good baseball to get HBPed--how conscious was Mookie that this was an exception to that rule, that this one HBP was detrimental? I've always wondered if we stole that game because Mookie was smart or because Mookie was dumb but lucky.

Johnny Dickshot Mar 02 2006 07:04 AM

Instinctive and smart: If the pitch was a *little* inside, lean into it and take the base, but it was inside and low and though he prolly didn;t have time to ponder what Gedman would do, he'd have known that a ball there would be especially difficult to get (Gedman reaching far across his body and down). I'd also read where they knew that Stanley was capable of putting a delivery in the dirt and what that could mean.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 07:09 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: : If the pitch was a *little* inside, lean into it and take the base. I wonder. Did the HBP mean anything at all? Mookie would have gotten on base, but so what? His run meant nothing, his spot on 1B just created an extra potential forceout, and I'm not sure if the next batter (which was who?) had a better SLG or BA than Mookie did.

ScarletKnight41 Mar 02 2006 07:12 AM

I always thought he jumped out of the way of that pitch because he was still jumpy after being hit in the eye by that ball during that running drill in spring training that year.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 07:21 AM

HoJo was up after Mookie. About the same BA and SLG roughly. On second thought, Mookie taking the HBP makes a little sense, in that it would have created an extra potential for a forceout (at home and at third, where there would have been with Mitchell on 3b and Knight on first), it would have moved Knight up a base, thus making the winning run possible on a HoJo single, so I guess taking the HBP makes some sense.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 07:25 AM

worst persistent assist attempt went 8-2/worst persistent assist attempt went 2-8

Rotblatt Mar 02 2006 07:37 AM

Interesting. ]I'd also read where they knew that Stanley was capable of putting a delivery in the dirt and what that could mean. That seems the most likely to me--that Mookie would have planned an approach before getting to the plate. You, know "This guy pitches inside, so I should be ready to lean in" or "This guy throws a lot of WP, so I should get the hell out of the way," etc. Maybe 40% by design, 60% by instinct?

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 08:38 AM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: I always thought he jumped out of the way of that pitch because he was still jumpy after being hit in the eye by that ball during that running drill in spring training that year. I don't think so. I think you're remembering the two most vivid plays of Mookie's 1986 season (maybe of his career) and connecting the dots between them in a causal line that doesn't exist. If Mookie was exceptionally skittish about being pitched inside (after an incident I'm pretty sure took place on the basepaths, not from a pitched ball), don't you think someone would have figured that out between March and October? Wouldn't the Sox's scouting report (and the Astros', and every regular season opponents') have read "Pitch Mookie on the inside part of the plate and he bails out of the box"? It didn't because he didn't. Finally, that pitch would have hit Mookie, if it had hit him at all, in the right ankle. I don't see him thinking that his eye was in any great danger. If a pitch to his ankles had him bailing, it would have showed up well before October.

ScarletKnight41 Mar 02 2006 09:19 AM

Yes, it took place on the basepaths. But it was a serious injury, and I always felt that it had a lot to do with Mookie jumping out of the way that night. Of course, unless we can convince Mookie to join the CPF for a chat (hey, why not - we've been on a roll lately), there's no way to answer what was in Mookie's mind at the time.

Elster88 Mar 02 2006 09:20 AM

I doubt anything was going through Mookie's head that made him more skittish. Mookie has said what he was thinking about a few times: "Please do not strike out."

sharpie Mar 02 2006 09:39 AM

I remember hearing that Stanley hadn't previously thrown a wild pitch that whole season.

Yancy Street Gang Mar 02 2006 09:43 AM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: Of course, unless we can convince Mookie to join the CPF for a chat (hey, why not - we've been on a roll lately), there's no way to answer what was in Mookie's mind at the time. That would be way beyond cool. How can we make it happen?

Frayed Knot Mar 02 2006 09:43 AM

An intentional HBP in that spot is a bad move. The first thought has to be to tie the game first. An HBP is a dead ball and no run scores. I suspect his move was mostly instinctive but probably with some forethought as well. There are times when I'm sure players go to the plate knowing that an HBP is a good thing and my guess is that they'll remind themselves of that in certain spots in order to supress the regular instinct of getting out of harm's way. Did Mookie KNOW as he was doing it that skipping out of the way results in a passed ball? ... Probably not -- but w/o that forethought to remain IN the way it turns out to be the smart move. An HBP results in a new batter w/a fresh count and the winning run closer but they were well aware that Stanley's sinker (and perhaps Gedman's less than great blocking skills - I still think that one was more his fault than his pitcher's) could hand them what they needed there on a platter. Harrelson at 3rd reportedly said as much to Mitchell. I don't buy the idea that the ball-in-face ST incident had anything to do with it.

Yancy Street Gang Mar 02 2006 09:48 AM

Howard Johnson was on deck waiting to pinch hit. And this wasn't the Howard Johnson of 1987; the 1986 Hojo wasn't all that dangerous. I'd rather have kept the bat in Mookie's hands then let Hojo try to hit. He's too likely to have struck out to end the game. I remember watching from the upper deck, not wanting to have to count on Hojo. I wanted Mookie to hit a double.

Frayed Knot Mar 02 2006 09:53 AM

]The first thought has to be to tie the game first. Also to not be redundant.

Willets Point Mar 02 2006 10:07 AM

Don't you mean "Also not to be redundant too."

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 10:09 AM

Do you think Mookie-posts grow on trees, young man?

Willets Point Mar 02 2006 11:02 AM

Career HR's: 67/397 Career RBI's: 438/1223 Career BA: .274/.311 Career OBP: .314/.382 Career SLG: .386/.555 Career OPS:.700 /.936 Career SB: 327/17

MFS62 Mar 02 2006 01:19 PM

I hope this isn't a repetitive redundancy. Faster than a speeding bullet/ slower than a speeding bat shard Later

Centerfield Mar 02 2006 01:41 PM

As FK mentioned, if you come to bat with the season on the line and the tying run on third, you get out of the way hoping it skips to the backstop. So unless the bases are loaded, what Mookie did was the right move. In any case, I always thought Mookie was aware of the possibility of the wild pitch as he immediately looked back, and then waved in Mitchell. ON EDIT: To illustrate this, I wish we could show clips of Mookie following the Stanley wild pitch, compared to Piazza following the (Brad Clontz?) wild pitch to end the '99 regular season. Mookie saw it right away and waved in Mitchell emphatically....whereas Mikey kinda looked around blankly. It's almost like he didn't figure out what happened until everyone was jumping around.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 02 2006 01:54 PM

Centerfield wrote: As FK mentioned, if you come to bat with the season on the line and the tying run on third, you get out of the way hoping it skips to the backstop. So unless the bases are loaded, what Mookie did was the right move. In any case, I always thought Mookie was aware of the possibility of the wild pitch as he immediately looked back, and then waved in Mitchell. . It was clearly the right move. You get a world's championship out of it, and it's awful hard to second-guess. I was just wondering how consciously Mookie was aware of how right a move it was at that moment. ]ON EDIT: To illustrate this, I wish we could show clips of Mookie following the Stanley wild pitch, compared to Piazza following the (Brad Clontz?) wild pitch to end the '99 regular season. Mookie saw it right away and waved in Mitchell emphatically....whereas Mikey kinda looked around blankly. It's almost like he didn't figure out what happened until everyone was jumping around Wait, are you suggesting a brilliant/clueless element here? (It was Brad Clontz. I was sitting with my little Mookie at the fountain outside Lincoln Center, relaying to her, word for word, what I was getting out of my ear-budded radio).

Rotblatt Mar 02 2006 01:59 PM

Recorded gospel album / DJ'ed metal radio show

seawolf17 Mar 02 2006 02:08 PM

Anyone hear that gospel album? I'm curious. (Not curious enough to spend money on it, but curious.)

Centerfield Mar 02 2006 02:10 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Wait, are you suggesting a brilliant/clueless element here? I'm not sure I'd use those words, but if I had to judge by reactions, I think Mookie was conscious of the possibility of the wild pitch...and therefore, recognized it right away when it happened. Piazza looked like he went to the plate intent on driving in the run (was it Mora?) and when he scored on the wild pitch, took a second to register what had happened.

Rotblatt Mar 02 2006 02:13 PM

seawolf17 wrote: Anyone hear that gospel album? I'm curious. (Not curious enough to spend money on it, but curious.) I tried to find a copy of it for my dad the Christmas it was released, but couldn't locate it anywhere. I think I read a Times article about it that was rather complimentary, but it was in the Sports section, so who knows?

Johnny Dickshot Mar 02 2006 02:20 PM

Drove a truck in the offseason/received the world's ugliest car as a gift from the Mets son of a black sharecropper/son of an Italian businessman who as part of group attempting to buy the Marlins a few years back were rejected by the owners on the basis of "background" college educated/high school educated glasses/contacts

Yancy Street Gang Mar 02 2006 02:23 PM

married his brother's widow/married a weatherman Playboy playmate

Bret Sabermetric Mar 04 2006 12:44 AM

traded for Jeff Musselman/ had pretty big muscles, man