Master Index of Archived Threads
2016 Ranking Project
| Frayed Knot Jan 04 2017 06:29 PM |
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A little delayed this year, but still time for your 2016 NYM Rankings.
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| seawolf17 Jan 04 2017 07:37 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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We definitely already did this. I remember doing it.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 04 2017 08:58 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Not since last year.
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| Edgy MD Jan 04 2017 09:11 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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30. SYNDERGAARD
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| Frayed Knot Jan 04 2017 09:28 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Mr. #28 is missing.
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| Nymr83 Jan 04 2017 09:58 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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First draft here trying to see how i feel about it... the dashes are my "tiers" -
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| Edgy MD Jan 05 2017 06:27 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Fixt.
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| Vic Sage Jan 05 2017 01:16 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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30. SYNDERGAARD
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| Ceetar Jan 05 2017 02:06 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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oof. you guys are awfully high on Colon.
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| Vic Sage Jan 05 2017 02:21 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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positively stoned
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| Ceetar Jan 05 2017 02:24 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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stones in colon are not good.
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| seawolf17 Jan 05 2017 02:44 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Man, this season went fast, then. 1. Syndergaard 2. Cespedes 3. deGrom 4. Cabrera 5. Walker 6. Granderson 7. Reed 8. Colon 9. Matz 10. Conforto 11. Reyes 12. Flores 13. Familia 14. Loney 15. Verrett 16. d'Arnaud 17. Blevins 18. Lugo 19. Gsellman 20. Robles 21. TJ Rivera 22. Henderson 23. Johnson 24. DeAza 25. R Rivera 26. Bruce 27. Duda 28. Wright 29. Lagares 30. Salas I hate to leave Harvey off too, but at the same time, he was mostly terrible.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 05 2017 03:59 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 24 2017 10:49 AM |
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see revision on page 3
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| Frayed Knot Jan 07 2017 04:34 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I haven't looked at the pitchers yet, but my thinking on positions players thus far is ...
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| Frayed Knot Jan 09 2017 07:08 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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30 - SYNDERGAARD
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| Nymr83 Jan 09 2017 07:34 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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FK - Wright gets a 1? I think you have him mis-ranked below our other less-successful part-time hitters
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| Frayed Knot Jan 09 2017 09:37 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Yeah, I have to rethink a few things. I wanted to get a list together and put it up there but may have rushed things a bit.
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| Edgy MD Jan 10 2017 06:30 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Yeah, I don't know how he fell off of my list. He must be the original player missing from my set.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 10 2017 06:44 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Here's my list. I had a hard time organizing the bottom half of the list.
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| Nymr83 Jan 10 2017 07:07 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Grimm - Familia over Reed? why? Saves are a crap stat - Familia was very very good this year - Reed was otherworldly
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| Nymr83 Jan 10 2017 07:22 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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one more thing on relievers - these are the strand percentages for some of our primary guys. they dont show up in the box scores but they matter. Reed wasn't so great here. Familia was bad and didnt have too many chances (ie those "save situations" are usually easier than coming in mid-inning as others are asked to do)
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 10 2017 07:29 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Well, I put them right next to each other. I essentially gave them a tie. I agree that saves are a crap stat, by the way.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 19 2017 09:38 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I'm going to say the end of January for this one.
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| Nymr83 Jan 19 2017 09:44 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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very little interest this year?
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| Ceetar Jan 20 2017 06:51 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I intend to do this but I keep forgetting.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 20 2017 07:15 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I'm the only dummy with Cespedes over Syndergaard. I'm gonna double check that, and insert Cecchini somewhere in there because I overlooked him.
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| Ceetar Jan 20 2017 07:20 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Reserve the right to tweak this later.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 20 2017 07:58 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Walker over cespedes?
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| Frayed Knot Jan 20 2017 07:59 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Like I said earlier, most of the variation is among the part-timers, those in the middle/bottom of the list. The top is more or less consistent. As of now, compared to the existing consensus: - EDGY is coming in high on Lagares, Salas, Ruggiano, and Kelly; low on Flores, Conforto, and is off the board on Loney & Wright - Nymr: high on Bruce & Wright; low on Reyes & Harvey - Vic Sage is high on (well we won't know for sure until the lab comes back with the results) but also Lagares, Salas, Henderson, Kelly; low on Loney, Wright, Conforto, Flores, Reyes - Seawolf is high on d'Arnaud, Henderson, Verrett; low on Gsellman, Harvey, Duda - JCL is a bit up on d'Arnaud & Harvey; low on R. Rivera (off the board) & Johnson - Grimm is high onDe Aza; down on d'Arnaud - Ceetar is up on Walker, Harvey, Lagares, De Aza; low on Blevins, Loney (off the board), Flores None of that means you're wrong about those listed, only that you're higher or lower than the pack on those particular guys.
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| Ceetar Jan 20 2017 08:05 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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need to think about that one. Seems like Cespedes might be getting dinged a bit too much for the CF play when it was more of a desperation thing.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 20 2017 08:12 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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btw, if you do make adjustments to your list, re-print the list or at least point out what you changed. If you just re-edit the earlier post I probably won't see it.
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| Vic Sage Jan 20 2017 09:08 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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how can i be high on my rankings for Salas and Kelly when i didn't even include them? This makes me question your record-keeping. I DEMAND A RECOUNT!
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| Centerfield Jan 20 2017 09:41 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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My list:
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 20 2017 11:05 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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There's just no fucking way Neil Walker was the best player on the Mets last year. I can't see him any higher than 3rd and even that's a stretch.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 20 2017 11:18 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Yeah, not sure what happened there, maybe I was the one who was high. I seemed to have mis-copied only your list and even then only part of it - so at least the whole thing wasn't a mess. As it stands now, you're low on Loney, and then less so on Flores, Reyes, and d'Arnaud. Higher than most others on Lagares & Henderson.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 20 2017 11:22 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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To me he's neck and neck with Grandy for 3rd best offensive player. Then he drops from there depending on how many pitchers you want to slot ahead of him.
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| TransMonk Jan 20 2017 11:54 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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30. Noah Syndergaard
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| Ceetar Jan 20 2017 12:05 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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It's mostly just fWAR. Cespedes actively hurt the team in center while Neil added much needed value at second defensively. The value the steadiness of Walker and Cabrera up the middle for most of the season provided especially compared to Murphy-Flores last year is often understated. I probably should swap Cespedes up, just because he was that much better a hitter (not that Walker was a slouch), but I don't think it's a slam dunk or anything.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 20 2017 02:08 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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How is Schaefer doing against the general consensus?
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| Frayed Knot Jan 20 2017 02:22 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Schaefer was significantly lower than our emerging consensus (haven't added TMonk's vote yet) on Gsellman (9 slots lower), also Blevins (11), TJ Rivera (7), and Lagres (5). But our PotG votes were higher on Loney (+5), Harvey (9), DeAza (7), and Verrett (11)
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| Frayed Knot Jan 23 2017 08:37 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Revising my list:
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| Frayed Knot Jan 23 2017 09:00 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Stuff from various lists that I'm having trouble seeing:
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| Ceetar Jan 24 2017 07:45 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Of 42 1B guys with at least 300 AB, Loney is 36th by fWAR and 34th by wRC+. he was a net negative. I did more to help the Mets win last year. They would've been better off playing Bruce there and not dealing with the outfield logjam. They would've been better off playing a broken-backed Duda there, and should've in the playoffs.
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| Vic Sage Jan 24 2017 07:51 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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yeah, that.
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| Edgy MD Jan 24 2017 08:02 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I don't think that's what a negative WAR really means. As much as I'm enchanted by fWAR on the offensive side, I don't think they really get defense right, philosophically, although if they did, it probably wouldn't help Loney much, and perhaps would be more likely to hurt him.
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| Centerfield Jan 24 2017 08:04 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I was down on Loney, and was considering leaving him out altogether, but he just had so many AB's and he did hit 9 HR's. But in the end those HR's were really all he did (kinda symbolic of the whole offense in 2016). His OPS of .703 from a 1B is terrible. Like Ceetar said, KJ was the better choice there. He had a reputation of being hitter-ish, even if he didn't have a lot of power. That ended up not being the case at all. But the biggest disappointment was his defense. I don't know that I have seen scouting reports be that wrong. Just complete head scratchers at times. Not know what balls to go for. Getting caught way off the bag. He played 1B like a coordinated guy who just converted from another position. I probably am projecting some ill will on him since I wanted him out of the lineup down the stretch run (Play Bruce at 1B, start Conforto). And I realize that's not really his fault, but whatever. Bye Loney.
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| Ceetar Jan 24 2017 08:38 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Well, he gets knocked for the positional adjustment cause 1B is not quite evaluated properly as it applies to the whole field, but most seem to think he played worse than an average 1Bman anyway, so he's actually getting credit. plus his wRC+ was puny and pathetic, on the offense side. 200th of 268 players with at least 300 AB. There were probably a dozen other guys on the scrap heap the Mets could've gotten instead of Loney that would've performed better. It ended up being a bad choice by Alderson. He was literally the R in WAR and still managed to underperform it.
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| Edgy MD Jan 24 2017 09:21 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Who should he have gotten?
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| Ceetar Jan 24 2017 09:40 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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they're literally a dime a dozen. Michael Morse? There are probably a billion guys wallowing away in AAA that could've been add for cash considerations or something similar as well. They could've tried calling up the AAA scrub they were playing in Vegas. Krauss? I forget his name. It's a little foolhardy to assume all replacement guys are the same, though granted it can be equally foolhardy to just randomly plug a new guy in as soon as it looks like the last one failed. But hell, Loney was really bad and definitely not a top 30 2016 Met.
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| seawolf17 Jan 24 2017 09:46 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Why DID I put Verrett so high? Revised, knocking #15 Verrett off and adding Harvey in at 30.
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| Edgy MD Jan 24 2017 09:51 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I'm not sure I agree with your definition of "literally." Or "billion." Michael Morse was out of baseball most of last year. By the time Duda went down and it was clear it would take more than Campbell and Flores to fill the hole, Morse wouldn't have likely been a viable option. I suppose they could have grabbed him and given a few weeks to get his timing in the minors. But nobody touching him all season after he was DFA'd by the Pirates doesn't give me confidence that he was going to be a better addition to the Mets. The real way to do better is to shop from a higher shelf, and get an active, productive big leaguer, but the Mets clearly weren't looking to be that aggressive.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jan 24 2017 10:13 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I don't remember now...
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| Frayed Knot Jan 24 2017 10:29 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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It certainly wasn't known immediately that it would be essentially a season-long thing. And the real impetus for Loney came after Wright when down in addition to Duda which meant that Wilmer was no longer the first option. On the subject of his ranking, I'm not trying to pull a Woody Allen here and claim that 90% of life is just showing up, but the idea of marking down Loney because you think that others who weren't actually on the team would have done better if they were isn't exactly the idea of this thing. These other maybe/possible names might have tallied more than 26 XBHs if given 300+ ABs but they weren't and so taking it out on Loney based on that reasoning is silly. And while I certainly have no issue if he's slotted behind guys like Flores and Kelly Johnson, I'm just having a heard time seeing the logic in him either off lists entirely or at the very bottom in back of likes of Ty Kelly and Brandon Nimmo.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 24 2017 10:46 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I don't know why Rene came in so much lower than Travis in my initial rankings, though as I noted everything under 16 on the list is a pick'em. To address it I'm moving them closer together.
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| Centerfield Jan 24 2017 10:47 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Well, for me it was more that even guys that were on the team would have been more effective, but the point is well taken. I looked back at my list. While I don't have Ty Kelly, I ranked Nimmo as the 19th best, which seems kinda silly. And although I do think that the bad defense works against Loney, it's hard to justify ranking Nimmo, and Lagares, and d'Arnaud, and Reynolds and De Aza higher...especially when all of them failed to hit as well as Loney. Yeah, I may have whiffed on Loney. I think I to re-work my list. Is there a deadline to this?
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| Frayed Knot Jan 24 2017 10:58 AM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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And, like I said, I think sticking him below the likes of Johnson, Flores, Conforto, and some others is perfectly justifiable. I just couldn't see off the list entirely or at the very bottom down below the guys who barely hit AND barely played.
Midnight Jan 31 -- aka: one week from tonight -- sounds like as good a cut-off as any.
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| Ceetar Jan 24 2017 12:06 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Barely hit and barely played is better than didn't hit and played. Thinking of the overall value of his total contribution. I'm not going to count those 26 XBH without docking him for the 340 non-XBH. I just ran a list of Win Probability Added for 2016 Mets. Loney is 39th. Though he does bump up to 18th if I remove the pitchers (But that's sorta my point) All the guys below him except Bruce provided defensive value at least.
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| Ceetar Jan 24 2017 12:09 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Revised: swapped Cespedes up above Walker. Moved d'Arnaud and Bruce down a bit more.
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| G-Fafif Jan 30 2017 02:00 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I considered Cabrera the day-in/day-out MVP of this crew, but Syndergaard's credentials, in a Player of the Year sense, are overwhelming. Somewhere in between is the indispensability of Cespedes. They are my unassailable Top Three, and Colon is No. 4 for sure. I suppose Familia and Reed could flip, but I'm still impressed at how many saves in a row -- whatever one thinks of saves -- Jeurys strung together. Granderson, flaws notwithstanding, is one of the quiet success stories of recent Met history, in there almost every game, transcending his uninspiring batting average and playing inspiring defense, give or take a throw.
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| Frayed Knot Jan 30 2017 02:13 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Ah, thanks for the reminder as my self-imposed deadline snuck up on me.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 01 2017 09:21 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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24 hours or so remaining for any revisions/corrections.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2017 06:23 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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[table:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]30[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]NOAH SYNDERGAARD[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]29[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]YOENIS CESPEDES[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]28[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]ASDRUBAL CABRERA[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]27[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]JACOB deGROM[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]26[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]BARTOLO COLON[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]25[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]CURTIS GRANDERSON[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]24[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]NEIL WALKER[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]23[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]STEVEN MATZ[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]22[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]ADDISON REED[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]21[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]JEURYS FAMILIA[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo][tr:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]20[/td:1x9687qo][td:1x9687qo]WILMER FLORES[/td:1x9687qo][/tr:1x9687qo]
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| Edgy MD Feb 06 2017 06:50 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Pretty cool to see José's return launch him into the top 10, but I'm surprised to hear he's within reach of Piazza.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 06 2017 08:51 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Another season like this past year -- 12th best player on a 90-ish win team -- would be enough for him to pass Franco, but he'd probably need to beef that up to more like a Top-Seven finish with an equally good or better team in '17 to catch Piazza, certainly not a given seeing as how he doesn't have a set position coming into the year.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 12 2017 12:53 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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[table:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]30[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]NOAH SYNDERGAARD[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]29[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]YOENIS CESPEDES[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]28[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]ASDRUBAL CABRERA[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]27[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]JACOB deGROM[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]26[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]BARTOLO COLON[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]25[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]CURTIS GRANDERSON[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]24[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]NEIL WALKER[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]23[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]STEVEN MATZ[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]22[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]ADDISON REED[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]21[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]JEURYS FAMILIA[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx][tr:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]20[/td:1gx1fwzx][td:1gx1fwzx]WILMER FLORES[/td:1gx1fwzx][/tr:1gx1fwzx]
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| G-Fafif Feb 17 2017 12:38 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I just realized I unintentionally left De Aza out. A Rick Perry moment on my part.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 17 2017 01:37 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I probably assumed that was intentional, especially given the debate on the board over the proper credit (or not) merited by James Loney for this past season.
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| G-Fafif Feb 17 2017 02:04 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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I probably would have had him in Kelly Johnson-T.J. Rivera territory (my ballot) based on durability, steady incremental improvement and genuine hustle. Matt Reynolds thanks me for the oversight.
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| Frayed Knot Feb 17 2017 02:28 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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Those points probably would have been enough to pop him ahead of d'Arnaud on the yearly ballot, so Travis thanks your oversight too.
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| G-Fafif Feb 17 2017 03:31 PM Re: 2016 Ranking Project |
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D'Arnaud's still here, De Aza isn't. If I've accidentally boosted Travis's confidence, it's all to the good.
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