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Eight is More than Enough

Chad Ochoseis Apr 18 2017 02:59 PM

Blevins. Salas. Gilmartin. Smoker. Robles. Edgin. Montero. Reed. A closer. Two righthanded set-up guys. A solid LOOGY. A short guy for when we're behind in Edgin. A somewhat capable long guy in Smoker. A somewhat incapable long guy in Montero. And, in Gilmartin, a lefty who is here to make sure the other guys don't get lonely. And Familia on the way. Do we really need this much bullpen? I saw the need for bringing up Gilmartin after the 16 inning game in Miami on Thursday. But it's Tuesday now. Yesterday was an off-day, and there's another off-day this Monday. Even though the other three games were close, the bullpen wasn't particularly taxed. I get that we can't count on much depth from Wheeler and Harvey. But I'm more concerned about running out of bench players in a close game. Is there any reason not to demote/DFA one of the marginal relievers and promote a position player?

Benjamin Grimm Apr 18 2017 03:10 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

I know how you feel. This is why I would like to see a 27-man roster, although I confess that it would probably lead to a 15-man pitching staff instead of a 6-man bench.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Apr 18 2017 03:11 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

I'm certain we will, but would guess the move comes in concert with Familia's return. I'm crazy but I think this team also needs Zimmo back.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 03:18 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

It's not crazy, it's stone-cold truth. Another stupid side-effect of short benches is that there are fewer spots for guys on the cusp, like Nimmo, to show their quality and hit their way into the lineup.

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 03:26 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Meh, you might be better off sending Thor up there to take a hack instead of like, Ty Kelly. The marginal rest and depth of the bullpen is probably worth more than the step up to Quad-A guy/Rene Rivera from Thor

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 03:28 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Well, I don't consider Brandon Nimmo to be a "Quad-A" guy. And I think the desire for marginal rest has become a self-defeating unstoppable creep.

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 03:32 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Edgy MD wrote: Well, I don't consider Brandon Nimmo to be a "Quad-A" guy. And I think the desire for marginal rest has become a self-defeating unstoppable creep. I wouldn't say self-defeating. Nimmo's hurt anyway, but I wouldn't think the extra AB or two a week he'd get by being the 25th guy instead of another reliever is going to prove he's not a Quad-A singles hitter.

Fman99 Apr 18 2017 03:47 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Yes. Too many pitchers. Not enough hitters. We want hitters, not bedshitters, I've heard said.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 04:59 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Well, I don't consider Brandon Nimmo to be a "Quad-A" guy. And I think the desire for marginal rest has become a self-defeating unstoppable creep. I wouldn't say self-defeating. Nimmo's hurt anyway, but I wouldn't think the extra AB or two a week he'd get by being the 25th guy instead of another reliever is going to prove he's not a Quad-A singles hitter. I'm not sure how Brandon Nimmo has to "prove" he's not a "Quad-A singles hitter" but Sean Gilmartin and Rafael Montero and Paul Sewald are somehow necessary enough that they don't have to prove anything. Nor do I believe that a fifth outfielder or sixth infielder is limited to one to two at-bats per week, especially if they demonstrate their increasing capability.

soupcan Apr 18 2017 05:10 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Fman99 wrote: Yes. Too many pitchers. Not enough hitters. We want hitters, not bedshitters, I've heard said. 'We want a batter, not a broken ladder' Apparently my childhood was more G-rated than FMan's.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 05:23 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

I hope we can add a thirteenth swinger! Not some guy engaged to a kooky CNN right-winger!

Benjamin Grimm Apr 18 2017 05:25 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

I recall "We want a pitcher, not a belly-itcher."

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 05:47 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Well, I don't consider Brandon Nimmo to be a "Quad-A" guy. And I think the desire for marginal rest has become a self-defeating unstoppable creep. I wouldn't say self-defeating. Nimmo's hurt anyway, but I wouldn't think the extra AB or two a week he'd get by being the 25th guy instead of another reliever is going to prove he's not a Quad-A singles hitter. I'm not sure how Brandon Nimmo has to "prove" he's not a "Quad-A singles hitter" but Sean Gilmartin and Rafael Montero and Paul Sewald are somehow necessary enough that they don't have to prove anything. Nor do I believe that a fifth outfielder or sixth infielder is limited to one to two at-bats per week, especially if they demonstrate their increasing capability. If you want to make a case for Nimmo being say the 20th guy on the roster rather than the 25th, that's fine. I'm talking about using the worst hitter left on the bench. They're not gonna promote Nimmo with nowhere to play anyway for the sake of pinch hitters, so it'd be garbage Eric Campbell types. Sewald and Gilmartin are riding the shuttle enough that they haven't proven anything either, besides that it's easier to find a guy to throw an inning or two here and there and get outs than it is to find another worthwhile pinch hitter. The Mets had 4 PH PA from pitchers last year. How many times did they actually need the last guy on the bench versus how many times they used the last reliever over a series to help mitigate rest and such?

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 05:59 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

The last pitcher takes innings from better pitchers. The last hitter takes at bats from worse hitters, and plays defense for worse fielders, if used effectively. Ceetar wrote: The Mets had 4 PH PA from pitchers last year. How many times did they actually need the last guy on the bench versus how many times they used the last reliever over a series to help mitigate rest and such? Too many. And the last reliever isn't mitigating rest ("mitigating rest?"), he's allowing the manager to remove good pitchers who should be pitching. The Mets average 5.48 innings per start among their starting pitchers, despite a 3.52 ERA. That should be a scandal. More weaker pitchers equals fewer innings by better pitchers.

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 06:04 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Edgy MD wrote: The Mets average 5.48 innings per start among their starting pitchers, despite a 3.52 ERA. That should be a scandal. More weaker pitchers equals fewer innings by better pitchers. Quantitatively untrue. Third time through the order penalty is real. Wins are a dumb stat, baseball is moving away from 'the starter is the guy that throws most/all of the game' mentality. This is a GOOD sign, and they've been pushing their best relievers, perhaps too hard. Familia back will help that though, and if they could find one other guy to step up, then they're really spreading those innings around better and keeping everyone fresh and in the best position to win.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 06:13 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Ceetar wrote: Quantitatively untrue. There's nothing I said that's untrue. If you'd somehow like to demonstrate—quantitatively or otherwise—what I've written that is untrue, please be my guest. Ceetar wrote: Third time through the order penalty is real. Then cite it. Ceetar wrote: Wins are a dumb stat, Maybe you share that with somebody who argues otherwise. I haven't invoked the pitcher-wins stat at all. Ceetar wrote: baseball is moving away from 'the starter is the guy that throws most/all of the game' mentality. I noticed. And they're not doing it effectively Ceetar wrote: This is a GOOD sign, and they've been pushing their best relievers, perhaps too hard. You're going to have to demonstrate for me how more high-leverage Montero and less high-leverage Syndergaard has been a good thing. I'm not seeing it. Ceetar wrote: Familia back will help that though, This isn't controversial. Ceetar wrote: and if they could find one other guy to step up, then they're really spreading those innings around better and keeping everyone fresh and in the best position to win. Every team, everywhere, every year is looking for one more guy to step up. The teams with two effective relievers are desperately searching for a third. The team with five effective relievers are desperately searching for a sixth, or a seventh. And that's the unending creeping effect. And if there are 27-man rosters, it won't end, but perpetuate.

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 06:33 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

in 2016 for example, Mets starter 3rd time through the order allowed a .736 OPS. Mets relievers first time through the order allowed a .671 OPS 2016 Mets SP third times through: 4.1 xFIP. Relievers first time through 3.83 xFIP. These numbers are the norm. There are individuals that buck the trend of course, Syndergaard is one of the top..3? pitchers in baseball after all and Montero is on the other end of the spectrum. But that's why he's generally mop up and it's Salas and Reed and Familia that will/should be taking the high leverage innings. This is why your best reliever should come into the highest leverage spot, not the highest numbered inning. In a lot of cases, the very best pitcher to face Mike Trout in the 7th is the 'closer'.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 07:00 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Ceetar wrote: These numbers are the norm. There are individuals that buck the trend of course, Syndergaard is one of the top..3? pitchers in baseball after all and Montero is on the other end of the spectrum. I don't know what rank either pitcher is. But if Syndergaard is anything like that good, I disagree that he should be averaging 6 1/3 innings every five games, with a 0.95 ERA. I wish this wasn't even controversial. And of course, limiting him to mostly the front half of games necessarily places him in fewer high-leverage situations. Ceetar wrote: But that's why he's generally mop up and it's Salas and Reed and Familia that will/should be taking the high leverage innings. And I'm arguing that he hasn't been generally mop-up, and this is the problem. Sixteen of 37 of the batters Montero has faced have been in high-leverage situations, and six have been in medium leverage situations. Ceetar wrote: This is why your best reliever should come into the highest leverage spot, not the highest numbered inning. Well sure. Again, this is uncontroversial, with me, anyhow, but when you pull your outstanding starters after six, and the other team is doing the same, you are tending to have multiple high-leverage spots, one after the other, eventually with increasingly less effective pitchers to do it in. Ceetar wrote: In a lot of cases, the very best pitcher to face Mike Trout in the 7th is the 'closer'. You're changing the argument here. I in no way disagree about the best pitcher being brought in earlier if the game is on the line. I think he should be kept in, too.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 07:06 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Edgy MD wrote: I don't know what rank either pitcher is. BillJamesOnline has Syndergaard at 16th, deGrom at 27th, Harvey at 123rd, Gsellman at 180th, and Wheeler not currently ranked.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 07:10 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Steven Matz, for what it's worth, is ranked 159th and Seth Lugo 185th (of 187 ranked starters).

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 07:17 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

You're arguing the Mets should let their starters pitch to Trout in the 7th instead of say Reed. That there are multiple high leverage situations throughout the game is not changing based on pitcher use. And they're not necessarily worse pitchers down the line either, the idea here is that you need to have multiple good, maybe equally good, pitchers in the pen because of this. You can play matchups and platoon splits to maximize effectiveness too. This is all to say that sure, have more relievers, because that part of the game is way more crucial than a mildly more effective third pinch hitter. But leverage? sure, maybe Edgin and Montero are getting too many innings, but in general the leverage usage at the time the pitchers enter the game seems okay to me: [url]http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=0&type=3&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=25&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=9,d Maybe a little less for Robles since he's struggled and more for Salas, though it's all fairly small sample there too.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 07:25 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Ceetar wrote: You're arguing the Mets should let their starters pitch to Trout in the 7th instead of say Reed. Not particularly, no. But it's pretty telling that you decided to rewrite my argument.

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 07:31 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: You're arguing the Mets should let their starters pitch to Trout in the 7th instead of say Reed. Not particularly, no. But it's pretty telling that you decided to rewrite my argument. or it's telling about the coherency of your argument. In any event, put the DH in and we'll need even less pinch hitters and can settle on 8+ relievers.

cooby Apr 18 2017 07:39 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Can I break in here?

batmagadanleadoff Apr 18 2017 07:51 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

cooby wrote: Can I break in here? I beg you, please do.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 18 2017 07:58 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

[youtube:a9qmpqjg]NtBZXaHZv3o[/youtube:a9qmpqjg]

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 07:59 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Cooby, break in any time.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 08:01 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Ceetar wrote: or it's telling about the coherency of your argument. I may be remarkably boring, but I'm not unclear. But if you don't understand anything, please ask for further clarification. Please don't make stuff up.

Ceetar Apr 18 2017 08:11 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

You've claimed it's a scandal that the Mets aren't pitching their starters deep into games, but say you don't want them pitching to the best guy in the 7th. But you also don't want the Mets to stock their bullpen full at the expense of a bench guy, so you could see how it's unclear.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 18 2017 08:25 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

If it's the seventh inning, and the Mets are up by 4, and Noah Syndergaard has thrown 95 pitches, and Bryce Harper is up with nobody on base, then yes, I'd let Syndergaard pitch to him. But if the batter, inning, and pitch count are the same, but the Mets are up by one and there are two runners on base, then maybe it's time to bring in a reliever.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 18 2017 08:36 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

The Save Ruined Relief Pitching. The Goose Egg Can Fix It. By Nate Silver Filed under MLB Published Apr. 17, 2017 https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/go ... -pitchers/ Intro: Hall of Fame relief pitcher Richard “Goose” Gossage isn’t the biggest fan of the “Moneyball” revolution. Here at FiveThirtyEight, we don’t think his expletive-laced tirades about nerds ruining baseball have always found their target the way his fastballs once did. But on one point, he’s absolutely right: The save is a stupid [bleep]ing statistic. Gossage recently lashed out against modern closers — including all-time saves leader Mariano Rivera — arguing that they aren’t used in the right situations and that cheaply earned saves exaggerate closers’ value compared to the pitchers of his day. “I would like to see these guys come into more jams, into tighter situations and finish the game. … In the seventh, eighth or ninth innings. I don’t think they’re utilizing these guys to the maximum efficiency and benefit to your ballclub,” Gossage said. “This is not a knock against Mo [Rivera],” he continued later.1 “[But] I’d like to know how many of Mo’s saves are of one inning with a three-run lead. If everybody in that [bleep]ing bullpen can’t save a three-run lead for one inning, they shouldn’t even be in the big leagues.” Gossage is right about pretty much all of that. A pitcher probably shouldn’t get much credit for handling just the final inning when his team has a three-run lead. Moreover, the top relief pitchers today are less valuable than they were in Gossage’s heyday in the 1970s and ’80s. In large part, that’s because managers are trying to maximize the number of saves for their closer, as opposed to the number of wins for their team. They’re managing to a stat and playing worse baseball as a result.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 08:41 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Ceetar wrote: You've claimed it's a scandal that the Mets aren't pitching their starters deep into games, Yes I did. Ceetar wrote: but say you don't want them pitching to the best guy in the 7th. No, I didn't. Ceetar wrote: But you also don't want the Mets to stock their bullpen full at the expense of a bench guy, so you could see how it's unclear. Once you start making stuff up that I didn't write, yes, I see how the clarity fails. Please don't do that. It's better for you, for me, and society.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 18 2017 08:42 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

In large part, that’s because managers are trying to maximize the number of saves for their closer, as opposed to the number of wins for their team. They’re managing to a stat and playing worse baseball as a result. This has been my beef for years now. If I'm ever a GM in position to hire a manager, one of the things I'll look for is a guy with the guts to challenge this orthodoxy.

Edgy MD Apr 18 2017 08:45 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Me three.

Edgy MD Apr 19 2017 02:40 AM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Rafael Montero, in a high-leverage situation.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Apr 19 2017 04:34 AM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Benjamin Grimm wrote: In large part, that’s because managers are trying to maximize the number of saves for their closer, as opposed to the number of wins for their team. They’re managing to a stat and playing worse baseball as a result. This has been my beef for years now. If I'm ever a GM in position to hire a manager, one of the things I'll look for is a guy with the guts to challenge this orthodoxy. Maddon. Francona. Ausmus. God help me, Girardi. There are a few.

Centerfield Apr 19 2017 01:44 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Can I take a crack at summarizing the arguments? Edgy: Thinks the Mets should let their starting pitchers pitch deeper into games. Starters are the best pitchers. Give them more innings. Ceetar: Disagrees. Says that the best relievers should be used in late-inning high leverage situations. Mets relievers are more effective the first time around than starters on their third time around. Edgy: Counters by saying sometimes the best pitcher to pitch the high leverage seventh inning is your starting pitcher. Even if at a high pitch count. Ceetar: Seems to be disagreeing? Saying it's always the reliever? This is where I start to get muddy. CF: I really have no idea. I guess for me it depends on the starter. I let Syndegaard or deGrom go, I guess, if they have looked good that night. I probably pull Gsellman/Harvey. Definitely pull Wheeler. I definitely see pluses and minuses on both sides. Edgy's way, the starters get taxed. Perhaps lose effectiveness in the long run. But you have a deeper bench, and save reliever innings. Maybe Montero doesn't have to pitch last night . Or isn't even here at all. Ceetar's way, the relievers get taxed. But our starters, our most valuable pitchers, stay fresh. I don't know. It's certainly not easy.

Ceetar Apr 19 2017 01:50 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Centerfield wrote: I definitely see pluses and minuses on both sides. Edgy's way, the starters get taxed. Perhaps lose effectiveness in the long run. But you have a deeper bench, and save reliever innings. Maybe Montero doesn't have to pitch last night . Or isn't even here at all. Ceetar's way, the relievers get taxed. But our starters, our most valuable pitchers, stay fresh. I don't know. It's certainly not easy. I'd rather burn out relievers who are often flighty year to year anyway and maintain health or energy for starters or whatever. Play matchups, certainly. Make exceptions for Thor, best pitchers. But bullpens need to be deeper in general. They're not a ranking of the best to worst pitchers, and relievers are no longer just rejected starters. They might not actually be worse than the starter and actually they're better on average, as per opposing OPS and such. Seasons are made on the bullpen. Championships are won. The extra pinch hitter? not so much.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 19 2017 01:55 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

The way I look at it, if you use five pitchers in a game instead of two, you have three more guys who might potentially be having a bad day. And that one bad inning that you get from that pitcher could cost you the game. If a pitcher is doing well, and hasn't thrown too many pitches, keep him in. Ride him as long as you can.

Centerfield Apr 19 2017 01:57 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Yes, but going to the same relievers every night, relatively early, leads to them getting gassed. And then it has immediate effects. One could say that the whole Miami series was messed up by over-used relievers. And the last guy on the bench argument can't be dismissed by four AB's. Countless times a lefty-righty matchup is not exploited because we are running out of guys. Look, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't think it's as one-sided as you are proposing.

seawolf17 Apr 19 2017 02:01 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I recall "We want a pitcher, not a belly-itcher." Ah, the good old days, when we had both.

Edgy MD Apr 19 2017 02:14 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

I don't think it's particularly taxing to have a starter pitch into the seventh if he's doing well. The eighth? It's been known to happen. Does it increase the risk of injury. Sure. It's generally a marginal, but it's a real one and pitches accumulate. But eventually you have to accept that prevention that causes you to regularly lose winnable games is not worth it. And in the end, having good relievers pitch four or five days a week instead of two or three is also taxing and increases injury risk too. Maybe moreso. Less recovery time and whatnot. And lesser pitchers end up in high-leverage situations. They just do. Over and over. Last night and the night before and the night before that. Benjamin Grimm wrote: The way I look at it, if you use five pitchers in a game instead of two, you have three more guys who might potentially be having a bad day. And that one bad inning that you get from that pitcher could cost you the game. If a pitcher is doing well, and hasn't thrown too many pitches, keep him in. Ride him as long as you can. It seems a simple principle. If you lift someone who is succeeding, you continually place another priority ahead of succeeding. Eventually, and with increasingly regularity, you will fail.

Ceetar Apr 19 2017 02:16 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Centerfield wrote: Yes, but going to the same relievers every night, relatively early, leads to them getting gassed. And then it has immediate effects. One could say that the whole Miami series was messed up by over-used relievers. And the last guy on the bench argument can't be dismissed by four AB's. Countless times a lefty-righty matchup is not exploited because we are running out of guys. Look, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't think it's as one-sided as you are proposing. oh, definitely, the gassing is a concern, but it strengthens my point I think. You need MORE relievers you can trust. And maybe after a long game is when you push the starter more, though granted it's early and April and maybe not as wise as doing that in June. Maybe it's not that as one-sided as I think, but you gotta have quality platoon guys for that and it's rare too. But our lineup is lefty-heavy perhaps. we've got one of each on the bench for the OF and a righty (or switch if it's Reyes on the bench) IFer. Plus Rene Rivera I guess. I don't think we're losing the matchup battle that much. I mean, we're mostly talking about TJ Rivera here, and he's a rightly and so is Lagares and Flores so it's not like that'd be resolved if he was here instead of the worst Sewall/Gilmartin/Montero. Benjamin Grimm wrote: The way I look at it, if you use five pitchers in a game instead of two, you have three more guys who might potentially be having a bad day. And that one bad inning that you get from that pitcher could cost you the game. If a pitcher is doing well, and hasn't thrown too many pitches, keep him in. Ride him as long as you can. Maybe, but there's really no good way to know if the 'next' inning from the pitcher you keep in is going to be the bad one over a fresh one from a reliever. And the data suggests a reliever first time through the order is better than a starter the third time through. (and relievers a second time are terrible) Sure, it's a balancing act.

Frayed Knot Apr 19 2017 02:43 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

When Duda got on as the winning run in bottom 9 last night w/one out there was essentially no one to PR for him -- Lagares & Granderson had already been used, leaving just Wilmer and R. Rivera. That's an example of a by-product of a shorter bench.

Ceetar Apr 19 2017 02:50 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Frayed Knot wrote: When Duda got on as the winning run in bottom 9 last night w/one out there was essentially no one to PR for him -- Lagares & Granderson had already been used, leaving just Wilmer and R. Rivera. That's an example of a by-product of a shorter bench. Modern rosters rarely have room for a speed guy. Duda's not _that_ slow either, but you could always use deGrom. I don't think I'd try to steal with just 1 out, but sure, it's another small tick in favor of 5 men on the bench. A very small tick though, because you've just removed probably your second best hitter in favor of a Quad-A type guy if they _don't_ score there.

Frayed Knot Apr 19 2017 03:02 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

The point is that options are removed when benches get smaller, options which go beyond just platoon-type issues of whether X should pinch-hit for Y Maybe you try a steal there with a faster runner, maybe you don't. I DO know that I would have liked to have a pr if Duda got to 2nd somehow but the only two benchies left were even slower. And I'll add that I don't think there's a Right/Wrong answer to how the player mix should go, but I'd like it better if teams weren't forced into feeling that they had to carry so many pitchers. Nor am I in favor of added rules that would dictate/limit how many of each you can have because, like defensive shifts, there's a risk and reward to each side and teams should be able to play them on whichever side of the line they choose and live with the results.

seawolf17 Apr 19 2017 04:01 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

When Duda got on as the winning run in bottom 9 last night w/one out there was essentially no one to PR for him -- Lagares & Granderson had already been used, leaving just Wilmer and R. Rivera. That's an example of a by-product of a shorter bench. Modern rosters rarely have room for a speed guy. Duda's not _that_ slow either, but you could always use deGrom. I don't think I'd try to steal with just 1 out, but sure, it's another small tick in favor of 5 men on the bench. A very small tick though, because you've just removed probably your second best hitter in favor of a Quad-A type guy if they _don't_ score there. I get your point, but when deGrom pulls a hammy sliding into second, Terry Collins gets run out of town on a rail. To FK's point, it definitely feels like there's pressure there to carry extra bullpen specialists, when the way the game is played - I think - should dictate a slightly different balance. Not that you're going to put Thor in to strike out a guy in a key spot on his throw day, but I suppose technically, you could. There have been managers who have tried to buck the trend. Grady Little and the Red Sox tried it in 2003: http://www.espn.com/mlb/columns/story?id=1489225 They had ten different pitchers earn a save that season, lead by Byung-Hyun Kim, who they acquired two months into the season and he saved 16 games. They also won 95 games that year, but a lot of that was their offense, which was incredible.

Edgy MD Apr 19 2017 04:08 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

I agree. Let's focus on building an incredible offense.

Ceetar Apr 19 2017 04:29 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

The crux of it all though, if you can't muster someone better than Montero has pitched, might as well be TJ Rivera. Maybe he can do both. THAT seems to be at least entering the mindset of teams. [url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bethach01.shtml [url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lorenmi01.shtml

Ashie62 Apr 19 2017 04:34 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

The paradigm of pitch counts and strict role specialization in the bullpen is likely here to stay. Score more runs.

Edgy MD Apr 19 2017 04:38 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

Oh, I don't think anything is here to stay, especially if it's shown to be demonstrably counterproductive.

Edgy MD Apr 20 2017 07:52 PM Re: Eight is More than Enough

If Duda is truly unavailable, and there's no transaction by gametime, the Mets go to town tonight with a ridiculously short bench of d'Arnaud, Flores, and Lagares. Go class of 13! right? And hey, if d'Arnaud is unavailable, we may be working with two benchies. We may see Gsellman at first or something similarly silly tonight.