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The View From The Vineyard

G-Fafif May 28 2017 04:17 PM

Bill Madden tracked down Tom Seaver this week, visiting him at his vineyard. Always worthwhile to hear what the Franchise has to say. By his own admission, Seaver doesn’t pay much attention to baseball and the Mets anymore (“I do grapes now”). He used to read the box scores in the San Francisco Chronicle every day on his little bench under a Douglas fir tree at the top of the vineyard. But he grew increasingly aggravated at the diminishing number of complete games by the starting pitchers and the frequency of pitching lines for starters beginning with the number '6'. I didn’t have to tell him it’s not his game anymore; that he and his like from the '60’s-'80s, are as much the ancient relics as Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson and Cy Young had been to them when they were playing. “So how are our boys doing?” he asked. “Been kind of a rough year so far in Flushing,” I said. “Lot of injuries.” “Oh?” he said. “What about the pitchers?” “Them too,” I said. “Noah Syndegaard, their new Seaver, is out for three months with a torn lat muscle.” “What’s that?” Seaver asked. “A muscle near the top of the shoulder,” I answered. “So how did it happen?” “Well,” I said, “the general opinion is it’s a result of the extensive weight-lifting program he underwent over the winter in an effort to increase his velocity.” “What was he throwing?” Seaver asked. “Around 100,” I said. Seaver’s eyeballs rolled upwards and he threw up his hands. “What’s with these guys and this obsession today with velocity?” he exclaimed. “How about just pitch! Learn how to pitch! Because eventually that velocity will be harder and harder to maintain on a consistent basis. “Let me tell you a story about velocity. Late in my career, with the White Sox, I didn’t throw as hard as I did with the Mets, but I knew how to pitch and I was still winning games. I did win 300, you know (chuckles). So this one game, I come back to the dugout after the first inning and Dave Duncan, our pitching coach, comes up to me and says: 'You ain’t got s--t today.' I said to him, 'I know that' and then I pointed to the other dugout, and added, 'but they don’t know that!'” “There are gonna be days like that,” I said. “Right,” said Seaver, “and you gotta know how to get through 'em. Velocity or no velocity, you know what’s the most important pitch for a pitcher?” He paused for effect. “Strike one!” “What about weight-lifting?” I asked. “I was a legs guy,” Seaver said. “That’s where I got my power from. The only weight lifting I ever did was these light hand weights which a college teammate of mine from USC, Jerry Merz, introduced me to. I did 'em almost my whole career. Never increased the weight. They were good for my back muscles, forearms and balance.” The legs stuff brought back the memory of a gym teacher who echoed everything I'd read to that point about Seaver's philosophy: you pitch with your legs, not your arm (it didn't do us much good). The not knowing about lats is cute since, well, did you ever hear of one when Seaver was pitching? The rest is in line with the grand old man offended by the falloff from the good old days, but Tom's entitled. I'm not sure what "just pitch" means. Even if velocity in and of itself is overrated, it's not like Syndergaard, for one, doesn't know what he's doing out there. (And it's not like Clayton Kershaw doesn't reign supreme.) Glad he still considers the Mets "our boys".

Edgy MD May 28 2017 06:01 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

I don't know what it says about me that I think Seaver sounds both like a big-talking ornery old coot on one hand and absolutely right on the other.

Ashie62 May 28 2017 06:28 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

I was that interview. Seaver was working at the time and likely felt interrupted as "I don't follow baseball much anymore. I would sadly factor in mild dementia also

41Forever May 28 2017 07:13 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

The best line: The most important pitch? Strike one!

MFS62 May 29 2017 12:13 AM Re: The View From The Vineyard

41Forever wrote: The best line: The most important pitch? Strike one! I have seen that attributed to Warren Spahn. And who knows where he first heard it? Wifey was looking through some old boxes today and found two Tom Seaver bobble head dolls, still in the original boxes. She went on an online sales site and saw them selling for almost $50. She asked me "Should we give them to the grand kids now or hold onto them for a few more years"? What would you folks do? Later

Frayed Knot May 29 2017 01:20 AM Re: The View From The Vineyard

Depends on how quickly the g-kids are likely to break it. What a True collector would do is to keep them in the package and wait for Seaver to die and then put them on eBay.

Ceetar May 30 2017 02:37 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

Grumpy grumpy grumpy! Though good leading questions by Madden to get him amped up. I wish we had statcast/velocity numbers on Seaver though, besides that they'd be a lot of fun, I think we'd find he contradicts himself. I was surprised looking at it that his '69 season was actually his worst, or second to '67, of his Mets seasons (sans '83) and that it wasn't until '70 that he truly became 'great'. Big K% increase. velocity-based?

batmagadanleadoff May 30 2017 03:03 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard Edited 2 time(s), most recently on May 30 2017 03:26 PM

I was surprised looking at it that [Seaver's] '69 season was actually his worst, or second to '67, of his Mets seasons (sans '83) and that it wasn't until '70 that he truly became 'great'. Big K% increase. velocity-based? Some here will think that what I'm about to write is blasphemous, but if today's modern-day voters voted on the '69 Cy Young Award, Seaver most likely doesn't win it. Seaver had what mattered most to the typical voter of 50 years ago in spades: he led the NL in wins and pitched for a playoff team. (Though in 1969, there wasn't much history for the division winner argument - back then, voters instead gave extra credit to the pitchers on pennant winners since division winners didn't exist until that very season. Still...). And then there was the miraculous back story that Seaver was obviously a huge part of. But Bob Gibson was the league's best hurler that year and today, we should be talking about a Gibson who won three straight Cy Youngs from '68 to '70.

Ceetar May 30 2017 03:10 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

yeah, I peaked at that. fWAR from '68-'70 Gibson 27.3 Jenkins 23.9 McDowell 23.8 Seaver 18.5 ERA- Gibson 58 Seaver 69 Koosman 70 Palmer, Wood, Perranoski, mcDowell 71

Ceetar May 30 2017 03:14 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

From '70-'72 obviously Gibson drops off a bit, so the best ERA- does in fact belong to the Mets Thanks Tug! 59 Sanders 67 Wood 68 Blue 68 Seaver 69 fWAR Jenkins 23.9 Seaver 23.1 Gibson 21.4 Lolich 19.6 Perry 19.1

Edgy MD May 30 2017 03:20 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

I think voters still care, in an otherwise close enough race, about a large number of wins and a candidate being on a pennant winner. I'd have to look close, but I'd likely give my first place vote to Gibson too. Seaver sure as hell gets my 1981 vote though.

batmagadanleadoff May 30 2017 03:31 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

Edgy MD wrote: Seaver sure as hell gets my 1981 vote though. Maybe 1971, too.

metirish May 30 2017 05:43 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

I read the article a few days ago, it was all over Twitter, Seaver sounds like a bitter man, but he always sounded that way, to me at least.

Frayed Knot May 30 2017 05:55 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

I think 'Bitter' is too strong, probably more like frustrated. Not a lot different than Keith really, in fact Keith referenced the 'Strike One' mantra during yesterday's game. Tom doesn't seem to harbor resentments towards the sport of baseball itself, just sometimes with how it's played and more specifically in the trends of modern day pitching.

metirish May 30 2017 06:05 PM Re: The View From The Vineyard

Yeah , bitter is strong, perhaps it is I that is bitter remember that time Keith made a comment about the club house years ago and Seaver was all over him?, "he' snot down there in the clubhouse , he can't know what's going on"....paraphrasing