Master Index of Archived Threads


Keith got screwed!

Nymr83 Jul 10 2017 11:26 PM

New article up at 538 (which does cool stuff when elections aren't going on with like .01% of the server traffic they got in November) takes a look at All-star starters - who got hte starts they didnt deserv and who got screwed out of starts when they were the best player. [url]https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-all-time-leaders-in-undeserved-all-star-appearances/ Guess who is #1? Meanwhile, the anti-Ripken is longtime Cardinals and Mets first baseman Keith Hernandez, who only started a single All-Star Game (1986) despite leading National League first basemen in WAR eight times. Four of those seasons, the slick-fielding Hernandez was thwarted by Steve Garvey, who — not coincidentally — is tied for third on the “over-selected” list above. He also lost out to Jack Clark, Al Oliver and even Pete Rose, who moved to first base (and was one of the league’s worst fielders there) late in his career. Keith’s list of grievances Seasons where Keith Hernandez did not start the All-Star Game despite having the most WAR at his position [snipped] renew the HOF debate!

Edgy MD Jul 11 2017 12:39 AM Re: Keith got screwed!

Keith has said that he doesn't even deserve consideration for the Hall of Fame until Steve Garvey gets in. It's bad enough that history's opinion is swayed by an assessment of Garvey inflated by an All Star selection rate that is disproportionately a reflection of his presence in a major media market, his frequent appearance in high-rated post-seasons, and his totally fake boy scout act. But it struck me as tragic that a smart guy like Keith let these things affect his assessment of himself. Robin Yount, by the way, only made three All Star teams, half as many as Bobby Bonilla. He even won one of his two MVPs in a season in which he failed to make the All Star team. I tend to think that, when filling an All Star roster, we should measure a player's productivity not merely over the first half of the season, but also include the second half of the previous season. Some excellent players tended to perform at their most productive as the season progressed, and history has recorded them as infrequent All Stars, ergo, not as good as frequent All Stars.

Chad Ochoseis Jul 11 2017 12:48 AM Re: Keith got screwed!

Edgy MD wrote: Some excellent players tended to perform at their most productive as the season progressed, and history has recorded them as infrequent All Stars, ergo, not as good as frequent All Stars. This is the larger problem - that history cares how many times a player was named to an All Star team (and how many awards a player won, in general) rather than paying attention to what the player actually did on the field.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 11 2017 01:53 AM Re: Keith got screwed!

Edgy MD wrote: Keith has said that he doesn't even deserve consideration for the Hall of Fame until Steve Garvey gets in.... But it struck me as tragic that a smart guy like Keith let these things affect his assessment of himself. That Garvey had so many undeserving ASG starts (according to 538) doesn't surprise me. Even in his prime, Garvey was at or near the top of my most hated players list. He was, I thought, kinda the Derek Jeter of his day even though Jeter was a newborn when Garvey was on his way to his grossly undeserved '74 MVP. In '74, Garvey was, generously, no better than the third best player on his own team, let alone the best player in the NL, or even a top 10 MVP'er. In his prime, Garvey was an excellent player, an all-star, but he was still grossly overrated, wrongly regarded as a perennial MVP candidate and on pace for the HOF. Keith's comments surprise me. Or not. As good as Garvey was, and he was a star in his prime, he couldn't carry Keith's lunch. I think Keith's a smart guy. I still do. But I've been listening to Keith for a long time now thanks to his Mets booth gig. And many of his stat-based baseball observations leave me dumbfounded. And this happens way more often than I wish it would. Like the idea that Garvey is more deserving of a HOF spot.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jul 11 2017 03:06 AM Re: Keith got screwed!

Throughout baseball history, defense has been underrated. So it makes sense that the best defensive first baseman ever is one of the game's most underrated ever.