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Johnny Mac and Serena

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 01:58 PM

So I guess the media folks on John McEnroe's current tour (he's plugging a new book) are going to continue to ask him to apologize to Serena Williams so that they can feel better about themselves. Whether what he said is true or not seems of no concern. For those not following: during one of his media stops (in this case NPR) McEnroe, when asked about Serena Williams, said that he thought her to be the greatest female tennis player ever. When the interviewer followed that up with why he had to put the 'female' qualifier in there, why was he seemingly unable to just refer to her as the greatest tennis player ever - Period, his response was that because if she played on the men's tour she'd be ranked somewhere around 700th. Well that little remark has a lot of people upset, people who don't necessarily dispute what he said only that he said it because I guess saying that women aren't the equal of men in athletics, even if true, upsets their sense of social correctness. As a result he's being asked on subsequent appearances if he has any intention of apologizing -- not surprisingly, he doesn't. But I've heard/read his remarks described as "misogyny" and "a backhanded compliment". I also heard that he should have said she'd be something like 50th on the men's tour because it sounds better than saying she'd be 700th. Again there was no discussion as to whether her being 50th was any more accurate than 700th only that it didn't sound as bad and therefore was perhaps less upsetting to those who heard it. Look, McEnroe's had his fair share of stupid remarks and actions in the past but this isn't one of them and, IMO, he has nothing to apologize for. Nor, btw, is he the first to say something like this. I barely follow tennis but even I remember the late Bud Collins wondering whether the then dominant and top-ranked Steffi Graf would even crack the top 1,000 on the men's rankings (and, yes, they do rank them that far) and women's tennis in those days had no bigger supporter/booster than Bud Collins. He, like McEnroe, was just saying what he thought to be the differences at the elite level of their sport but, although Collins's remarks generated some discussion at the time, he himself got a pass in the press either because he was one of their own or that in the 20-plus years between the two incidents we've grown increasingly more resistant to truths and/or opinions that don't conform to pre-conceived views ... and I'm afraid it's more the latter.

Ceetar Jun 28 2017 03:13 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

meh, it's pretty dismissive and reeks of "she's good...for a woman" I have little doubt Serena could mop the floor with the likes of Bastian Trinker or Filippo Volandri, even if the question of greatness was only directly related to ability.

Lefty Specialist Jun 28 2017 03:20 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

All I'll say is that I'm embarrassed that McEnroe and Chris Christie are Met fans.

d'Kong76 Jun 28 2017 03:22 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Everything is a thing nowadays. Personally, I'd pay to see Serena rough up John in a steel-cage-squared-circle brouhaha. "Serena, off the top rope... phwam!!"

Ceetar Jun 28 2017 03:27 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Probably bad for the baby though.

cooby Jun 28 2017 03:30 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

She'd squish him

Chad Ochoseis Jun 28 2017 03:34 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

OK, fine. Serena is currently out of commission, but set up a match between a top 10 women's player and a 500-1000 ranked men's player, a la Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs. I'm sure that for enough money, you'll find willing participants. See who wins. Live with that result. Why is this so hard?

d'Kong76 Jun 28 2017 03:42 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Helluva promoter I'd be, didn't know she was pregnant.

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 03:46 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

[fimg=400:10ji5imb]http://cdn.abclocal.go.com/content/kgo/images/cms/2155500_630x354.jpg[/fimg:10ji5imb]

Benjamin Grimm Jun 28 2017 03:49 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

I had heard that she was pregnant, when somebody made a comment wondering if her baby would be the color of chocolate milk, or something like that.

themetfairy Jun 28 2017 03:54 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

McEnroe was on with Colbert last night and was reasonably likable. He's not a rocket scientist, and he was led into a statement that was overblown. Maybe this will lead to a Bobby Riggs/Billie Jean King Part Deux. Maybe not. I'm not going to lose sleep over it either way, and I suspect the only sleep Serena is going to lose is when the baby is up at night those first few months.

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 04:03 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 28 2017 04:17 PM

Ceetar wrote: meh, it's pretty dismissive and reeks of "she's good...for a woman" I have little doubt Serena could mop the floor with the likes of Bastian Trinker or Filippo Volandri, even if the question of greatness was only directly related to ability. 1) Calling her the best female player of all time can hardly be described as dismissive 2) I have no idea who those two names [Trinker / Volandri] are but, again, if someone wants to refute the substance of Mac's claim and argue she'd be the equivalent on the men's tour more like the Top-200, or Top-50, or Top-10, or that she'd kick the shit out of Federer and Nadal at the same time, go ahead!! I claim no personal knowledge as to how accurate his assessment is and the specifics of it aren't what particularly interests me. Instead it's the reaction to the statement which I'm finding amusing; people who want him to publicly apologize and/or take back what he said not because they disagree with what he said (in answer to a direct question) but rather because it upsets their idea of social niceties.

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 04:13 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I had heard that she was pregnant, when somebody made a comment wondering if her baby would be the color of chocolate milk, or something like that. Former Romanian pro Ilie Nastase was the author of that particular crass remark (her husband to be is white) and, perhaps predictably, one of the pieces I read virtually equated McEnroe's comments with Nastase's. It should also be noted that the on and off court behavior of Nastase -- nicknamed 'Nasty' in his day -- was worse on a regular basis than was McEnroe's worst day. He was a top player for a few years there but his enduring fame is owed entirely to his crude demeanor and that his first name appears often in crossword puzzles.

Ceetar Jun 28 2017 05:54 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: meh, it's pretty dismissive and reeks of "she's good...for a woman" I have little doubt Serena could mop the floor with the likes of Bastian Trinker or Filippo Volandri, even if the question of greatness was only directly related to ability. 1) Calling her the best female player of all time can hardly be described as dismissive 2) I have no idea who those two names [Trinker / Volandri] are but, again, if someone wants to refute the substance of Mac's claim and argue she'd be the equivalent on the men's tour more like the Top-200, or Top-50, or Top-10, or that she'd kick the shit out of Federer and Nadal at the same time, go ahead!! I claim no personal knowledge as to how accurate his assessment is and the specifics of it aren't what particularly interests me. Instead it's the reaction to the statement which I'm finding amusing; people who want him to publicly apologize and/or take back what he said not because they disagree with what he said (in answer to a direct question) but rather because it upsets their idea of social niceties. the inclusion of the qualifier is dismissive and he clarifies by basically ranking her 700th. It's like saying Shohei Otani is the best Japanese baseball player ,and when asked why the Japanese qualifier saying "He'd be a low-A minor leaguer over here" He didn't say, "I don't know that she's better than Murray or Federer" he basically called the entirety of women's tennis the minor leagues. It's 2017 and Tennis is one of the few sports where women get anything approaching equal weight, and he's being all dismissive about it.

Edgy MD Jun 28 2017 06:31 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

One way and one way only to settle this, and that's to have the #1 ranked female (currently Germany's Angelique Kerber) take on the #700 ranked male (Egypt's Issam Haitham Taweel). Sports are great that way. Cool fact: Ranked #104 among men is an American named Tennys Sandgren. The Mets need to sign a guy name Basebahl Nilsson. And the Nets need to sign a guy named Baskeball Jones.

Fman99 Jun 28 2017 06:43 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

I hate the 24/7 news cycle. That's how this shit just lingers. Bring back the 2 AM test pattern, says I.

Chad Ochoseis Jun 28 2017 06:53 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

It's nowhere near a perfect analogue, but the all time best women's marathon time would not come close to cracking the list of top 500 men's marathon times. So McEnroe's comments aren't particularly nutty on their face, and they certainly didn't sound malicious or sexist.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 28 2017 06:58 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

I think the thing is, why did he have to feel the need to point that out?

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 07:07 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Ceetar wrote: the inclusion of the qualifier is dismissive and he clarifies by basically ranking her 700th. No, the inclusion of the qualifier is instructive because to call her the "best ever" while leaving it out implies that she's better than not only those men playing today but those of any era something he clearly doesn't believe that and I would find it shocking if anyone else does either. If someone wants to dispute his case for 700 then go ahead and do it but few if any are taking that route, instead they just head straight to the part where he should keep quiet about it even if he believes it to be accurate. Either that or they're saying that because she's more famous than all but a handful of male players then that alone makes her a better player. No it doesn't. It's like saying Shohei Otani is the best Japanese baseball player ,and when asked why the Japanese qualifier saying "He'd be a low-A minor leaguer over here" Yeah, it's nothing at all like that. Japanese baseball players have played here and have been All-Stars, MVPs, WBC champions, and otherwise top notch players. So to say that one of the best of them rates as a Single A player would be just plain stupid and demonstrably false. And, oh yeah, the Japanese players are also all males with no physiological differences or disadvantages as compared to those who play ball in the U.S. (Japanese men are, on average, a shade smaller then westerners which might provide a small athletic disadvantage but the gap between the two leagues has long been considered small and is probably shrinking) He didn't say, "I don't know that she's better than Murray or Federer" he basically called the entirety of women's tennis the minor leagues. It's 2017 and Tennis is one of the few sports where women get anything approaching equal weight, and he's being all dismissive about it. He didn't say he doesn't know that she's on par with Murray or Federer because he knows she's not and he believes that gap extends down to a rank of hundreds of players. Looked at that way women's tennis is the minor leagues as compared to men's tennis. That's not to say it isn't equally competitive, or as exciting to watch, or that their accomplishments are lessened, or that he thinks they should play for a fraction of the money and only on the worst courts after the men have finished and been served refreshments (by the female players of course). He's saying that, in a head to head battle between those accomplished enough to be professionals, male v female matches would be completely one-sided. That's something which is neither new nor shocking anymore than it would be for sprinters or high-jumpers or basketball players. It's also something Serena herself has acknowledged.

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 07:08 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I think the thing is, why did he have to feel the need to point that out? Because he was asked.

Ceetar Jun 28 2017 07:11 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Here's a serve speed graphic, one of those things that presumably men would have the advantage in and one of things you'd cite in saying women couldn't cut it. There's not exactly a huge difference there. I can't find a leaderboard to see where Serena stacks up there, really spoiled with stats in baseball.

metirish Jun 28 2017 07:26 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

I wonder looking at those speeds could we equate that 117 to a 99mph fastball and the 109 to a 91mph FAB, because that is a big difference then. Anyway, who is the 700th ranked player ?

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 07:29 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

themetfairy wrote: Maybe this will lead to a Bobby Riggs/Billie Jean King Part Deux. The logical extension of Riggs/King II would be Serena vs McEnroe. Assuming she's interested in getting back in playing shape post-baby I think she'd be a heavy favorite in that one although you never know. Several months before losing to King Riggs had beaten Margaret Smith Court, not far below King at the time and probably only a bit past her prime, in straight sets (6-2, 6-1). McEnroe is 58 now (Riggs was 55) and, like Riggs, wouldn't have a size advantage over his female competition. Of course it wouldn't prove anything, anymore than Riggs/King did. There was a lot of symbolic importance to that earlier match but it was essentially a media spectacle which showed nothing more than that the top female player of her time and in her prime could beat a man nearly twice her age.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 28 2017 07:43 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 28 2017 07:45 PM

The Riggs/King Battle of the Sexes tennis match was played on the same night that Dave Augustine's shot took that miraculous bounce right back to Cleon Jones. Also, Jim Croce's plane went down that night.

Edgy MD Jun 28 2017 07:43 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

This just in: Tennys Sandgren rocks a Goose Gossage mustache, and may, in fact, be descended from Goose Gossage.

Frayed Knot Jun 28 2017 07:58 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Riggs/King Battle of the Sexes tennis match was played on the same night that Dave Augustine's shot took that miraculous bounce right back to Cleon Jones. Also, Jim Croce's plane went down that night. Those three facts have stuck in my head all these years as well. Sept 20, 1973 If any of those show up in Final Jeopardy the night I'm on, man am I gonna kick ass!!

batmagadanleadoff Jun 28 2017 08:12 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Frayed Knot wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Riggs/King Battle of the Sexes tennis match was played on the same night that Dave Augustine's shot took that miraculous bounce right back to Cleon Jones. Also, Jim Croce's plane went down that night. Those three facts have stuck in my head all these years as well. Sept 20, 1973 If any of those show up in Final Jeopardy the night I'm on, man am I gonna kick ass!! Wow! Me too. I didn't have to Google that post. I knew that off the top of my head.

Ceetar Jun 28 2017 08:21 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

metirish wrote: I wonder looking at those speeds could we equate that 117 to a 99mph fastball and the 109 to a 91mph FAB, because that is a big difference then. Anyway, who is the 700th ranked player ? two of the guys I mentioned above are around there. Is it a big difference though? Guys with 91 mph fastballs in the majors are some of the best pitchers in the game. Dallas Keuchel throws slower than that and last year he was the 43rd best pitcher by fWAR. The year before he was 6th. i.e. low 90s fastballs can still get people out, it's not like Andy Murray would be able to take his sweet time in returning Serena's serve. And plenty of people can hit high 90s heat too, so it seems unlikely that the extra few MPH would be impossible for Serena to adjust to and return.

A Boy Named Seo Jun 28 2017 09:45 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Yah, baseball-wise it's a huge difference. 91-throwing dudes can get people out, sure, but harder thrown balls are harder to hit. I'm sure it's the same in tennis.

cooby Jun 28 2017 10:09 PM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Riggs/King Battle of the Sexes tennis match was played on the same night that Dave Augustine's shot took that miraculous bounce right back to Cleon Jones. Also, Jim Croce's plane went down that night. Those three facts have stuck in my head all these years as well. Sept 20, 1973 If any of those show up in Final Jeopardy the night I'm on, man am I gonna kick ass!! Wow! Me too. I didn't have to Google that post. I knew that off the top of my head. I didn't but I will never forget when Jim Croce died

Frayed Knot Jun 29 2017 01:26 AM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Riggs/King Battle of the Sexes tennis match was played on the same night that Dave Augustine's shot took that miraculous bounce right back to Cleon Jones. Also, Jim Croce's plane went down that night. Those three facts have stuck in my head all these years as well. Sept 20, 1973 If any of those show up in Final Jeopardy the night I'm on, man am I gonna kick ass!! Wow! Me too. I didn't have to Google that post. I knew that off the top of my head. And it's weird because I normally have no particular affinity for remembering dates. Mention some historical NYM happening to me and I'll often have trouble deducing the year. So why I not know that those three events happened virtually simultaneously but that the specific date of them has stayed jammed in my coconut for over four decades now is very strange.

Frayed Knot Jun 29 2017 04:19 AM Re: Johnny Mac and Serena

Chad Ochoseis wrote: It's nowhere near a perfect analogue, but the all time best women's marathon time would not come close to cracking the list of top 500 men's marathon times. So McEnroe's comments aren't particularly nutty on their face, and they certainly didn't sound malicious or sexist. I've long thought that distance swimming is the activity where women have been closest to men, and as it happens Katie Ledecky of Maryland -- and now of Stamford University -- is currently maybe the most dominant athlete in the world at precisely this type of event -- the 400m freestyle, the 800m and the 1,500m -- where she destroys the other female competition and currently holds the women's world record in all three. Her World Record time in the 400m (eight pool lengths) is some 16 seconds off the men's record; in the 800 she's 32.5 seconds off; and in the 1,500m she lags by a little shy of a minute (54.5 seconds). The gap in her times actually stays about the same as the distance increases to where she'd finish about 25-30 meters (about half a pool length) behind the men's record in each of the events. She'd beat a bunch of the top men in those events but would still be significantly short vs the winner of those races if run head to head.