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Things That Still Matter

Centerfield Aug 01 2017 01:34 PM

*Rosario and Smith. Obviously. *The return of Noah, Harvey and Familia. They are obviously a big part of 2018, so for us, our winter is a lot better if they all come back and demonstrate that they are healthy and strong. Obviously Harvey is the biggest wild card here. How much of his struggles were a result of his atrophied shoulder? This will be big to watch in over these last two months. Familia too. Never know how one will respond to this type of surgery, and he hasn't been sharp for some time before then. At the risk of jinxing things, I am most confident that Noah will come back to form. *Gsellman: Maybe he can be a strong 7th inning guy. I wasn't high on him last year, and I think this year he was exposed for what he is. Throws hard, has a good sinker. Maybe he can be an unflappable middle innings guy. *Lagares: About to enter his expensive years. Let's run him out there every day and see what he's got. *Conforto: Important that he finish strong. Establish himself as a star. Hits lefties. *TJ Rivera: Healthy? Can he handle 3B every day? *Beat Washington. Get healthy, smack the Nationals around to close the season. Send a message we will be back next year. *Subway Series. Would be nice to win the damn thing. Be the trigger for the MFY's downward spiral. *Zach Wheeler Changeup. There were some rumblings he was working on one. Great time to try it out if you got it Zach. You need another pitch.

seawolf17 Aug 01 2017 01:39 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

*Wright. Can we get him back on the field for one more farewell before the season is out?

Edgy MD Aug 01 2017 01:52 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Centerfield wrote: *Lagares: About to enter his expensive years. Let's run him out there every day and see what he's got. I'm about platooning Nimmo and Lagares. We've got a lot more to learn about Nimmo. *Conforto: Important that he finish strong. Establish himself as a star. Hits lefties. Bat him third, third, third. Bat him thirdy, third, third. *TJ Rivera: Healthy? Can he handle 3B every day? Healthy is the key. I think his position is an open question that can be dealt with next year as the reality of David Wright unfolds. But I think T.J. surgery is likely sooner or later. *Beat Washington. Get healthy, smack the Nationals around to close the season. Send a message we will be back next year. Those maniacs hit five homers in six plate appearances the other day!

Benjamin Grimm Aug 01 2017 02:00 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

seawolf17 wrote: *Wright. Can we get him back on the field for one more farewell before the season is out? That would cost the Mets a fortune. As I understand it, if he plays even one game in September, it will cost the Mets at least sixty days salary that won't be covered by insurance. I would be surprised if David Wright appeared in a game in 2017.

Lefty Specialist Aug 01 2017 02:29 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Wright, much as I hate to say this, has to retire. If he can't work out his problems that are NOT back-related over the course of a full season, he simply can't be relied on any more. The Mets need a real third baseman next year, not some combination of TJ/Wilmer/Asdubal/Reynolds/whoever. Like I say, it pains me. Wright's been a good soldier; never came within a mile of trouble, was good with the media, never embarrassed the ballclub. If anything he was TOO nice. But the uncertainty about his status has messed up the Mets for two seasons now, because they're afraid to trade for an everyday third baseman if Wright is going to come back. David's made plenty of money, and I think if he can't play for the Mets he won't play at all. But there needs to be some certainty here so that the organization can move forward.

Nymr83 Aug 01 2017 02:41 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

don't underrate Wilmer - his defense passes muster at 3B (it didnt at SS) and he mashed lefties, he needs a platoon partner!

Ceetar Aug 01 2017 02:46 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

meh, Flores is still not a good defender and doesn't walk enough. He's a nice super-sub type guy but I'd like it, especially if we're going with Rosario and Smith, to get a good defender there as well. Watch how magically the pitching is elite again once that happens.

Centerfield Aug 01 2017 03:05 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

I think "meh" is your favorite word.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 01 2017 03:06 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

I'm especially curious about second base and third base next year. I'd like to see the Mets go after free agent Mike Moustakas, but I don't know if that's at all in their plans.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 01 2017 03:07 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Centerfield wrote: I think "meh" is your favorite word. It's hard to get enthusiastic about a word like "meh". meh me informal exclamation exclamation: meh 1. expressing a lack of interest or enthusiasm. "Meh. I'm not impressed so far" adjective adjective: meh 1. uninspiring; unexceptional. "a lot of his movies are … meh" unenthusiastic; apathetic. "everyone else I talked to was kind of meh" Origin 1990s: apparently popularized by the television series The Simpsons .

Vic Sage Aug 01 2017 08:15 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Here's the lineup i'd like to see for the rest of the season: Rosario (ss) Nimmo / Lagares (cf) Conforto (rf) Cespedes (Lf) Smith (1b) Flores (3b) Cecchini / Walker (2b) d"Arnaud (c) Trade Cabrera and Granderson (and Walker, too, if possible) by August trade deadline for whatever you can get for them. I'll even take 4 more A-ball relievers! Bruce? Unless you can get some value for him, keep him and make a QO in the off-season.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 01 2017 08:25 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

I read where Terry doesn't want to play Rosario every day. He's going to get "plenty of rest". I don't know if that's to minimize risk of an injury during these meaningless games, or if they're trying to preserve his rookie status, or if he really thinks that Rosario needs plenty of rest.

Edgy MD Aug 01 2017 08:57 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Well, he's coming off an injury. And the team is loaded with infielders even after Duda done gone, so Collins might want to protect him from the tougher matchups.

G-Fafif Aug 01 2017 09:01 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

The 2017 Mets still matter.

smg58 Aug 01 2017 10:42 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

* Matz, Wheeler, and Lugo showing signs of righting the ship. * Anybody from this year's bullpen making a convincing case to be part of next year's bullpen.

Ashie62 Aug 02 2017 03:52 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

Lefty Specialist wrote: Wright, much as I hate to say this, has to retire. If he can't work out his problems that are NOT back-related over the course of a full season, he simply can't be relied on any more. The Mets need a real third baseman next year, not some combination of TJ/Wilmer/Asdubal/Reynolds/whoever. Like I say, it pains me. Wright's been a good soldier; never came within a mile of trouble, was good with the media, never embarrassed the ballclub. If anything he was TOO nice. But the uncertainty about his status has messed up the Mets for two seasons now, because they're afraid to trade for an everyday third baseman if Wright is going to come back. David's made plenty of money, and I think if he can't play for the Mets he won't play at all. But there needs to be some certainty here so that the organization can move forward. Wright has missed almost two seasons, get on with your life young man.

41Forever Aug 02 2017 01:08 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Vic Sage wrote: Here's the lineup i'd like to see for the rest of the season: Rosario (ss) Nimmo / Lagares (cf) Conforto (rf) Cespedes (Lf) Smith (1b) Flores (3b) Cecchini / Walker (2b) d"Arnaud (c) Trade Cabrera and Granderson (and Walker, too, if possible) by August trade deadline for whatever you can get for them. I'll even take 4 more A-ball relievers! Bruce? Unless you can get some value for him, keep him and make a QO in the off-season. The challenge with the lineup you suggest is that Bruce is closing in on 30 homers, among the league leaders, and I don't know how you can tell him to take a seat.

41Forever Aug 02 2017 01:12 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Ashie62 wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: Wright, much as I hate to say this, has to retire. If he can't work out his problems that are NOT back-related over the course of a full season, he simply can't be relied on any more. The Mets need a real third baseman next year, not some combination of TJ/Wilmer/Asdubal/Reynolds/whoever. Like I say, it pains me. Wright's been a good soldier; never came within a mile of trouble, was good with the media, never embarrassed the ballclub. If anything he was TOO nice. But the uncertainty about his status has messed up the Mets for two seasons now, because they're afraid to trade for an everyday third baseman if Wright is going to come back. David's made plenty of money, and I think if he can't play for the Mets he won't play at all. But there needs to be some certainty here so that the organization can move forward. Wright has missed almost two seasons, get on with your life young man. How many years are left on Wright's contract? If he retires, does that end the contract? Is it financially advantageous for him to remain on the disabled list and keep getting paid than to retire and leave a lot of money on the table? Walking away from $30 million or so is hard to do. I don't know if the team would offer a buyout or something along those lines. I think Mo Vaughn was on the DL for his last year, when everyone knew he had no chance of ever coming back and wasn't even with the team.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 02 2017 01:31 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Wright is signed through 2020, so three more years. If he stays on the DL for those three years, he'll get paid. If he retires, he won't.

Frayed Knot Aug 02 2017 01:37 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

2018 = $20 mil; 2019 = $15; 2020 = $12 -- and no one is going to simply retire and walk away from that kind of cash. If he's been told that he can't play again, a la Prince Fielder, then his career would already be over, he'd still gets what's remaining on the contract but would no longer be occupying a spot on the roster/DL or sitting in the dugout at home games. So that obviously hasn't happened yet and unless and until it does he remains on the DL and in some stage of rehab with an eye toward playing again.

Edgy MD Aug 02 2017 01:40 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

I'm not sure why we would lobby against him continuing. It's no skin off my bones if he keeps trying to get back on the field. And if he does, great for him and great for everybody. If he gets back but he isn't particularly good, he won't play as much. And if he does, that's an unrelated issue.

MFS62 Aug 02 2017 01:45 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

He can't stay on the DL for the remaining three years of his contract. He will have to be put back on the 40 man roster each year prior to the Rule V draft, and then put back on the DL at the start of each next year. So that could expose a player who might help the club down the line to that draft for the next three years In each remaining year, the insurance policy kicks in after he has missed 60 days. So the club is responsible for about 25% of each year's contract plus the cost of the insurance policy. I don't think those premiums are trivial, since they were renegotiated at the conclusion of his prior contract, and after his spinal stenosis was known. The fact that there seems to be no long term solution in place to address the third base situation is something that still matters. Later

Benjamin Grimm Aug 02 2017 01:49 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Sign Mike Moustakas to play third base next year. The Mets can't continue to hold the position open for David Wright.

Edgy MD Aug 02 2017 01:57 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

I'm not sure how Wilmer Flores and T.J. Rivera failed to demonstrate that the Mets have plenty of options at third if Wright doesn't return. Infield depth isn't what has undone the team this year.

41Forever Aug 02 2017 02:11 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not sure why we would lobby against him continuing. It's no skin off my bones if he keeps trying to get back on the field. And if he does, great for him and great for everybody. If he gets back but he isn't particularly good, he won't play as much. And if he does, that's an unrelated issue. I think only good things can come from David Wright still being associated with the Mets. When his playing days are officially over, I hope there is some role for him with the team.

MFS62 Aug 02 2017 02:18 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not sure how Wilmer Flores and T.J. Rivera failed to demonstrate that the Mets have plenty of options at third if Wright doesn't return. Infield depth isn't what has undone the team this year. I would be ok, if that were the plan - Wilmer at third and TJ at second. But it seems Terry doesn't hasn't given them consistent time to develop their skills at those positions. He keeps moving them around and that can't be helpful to their development. If that is the plan, I wish he would just leave them there (once TJ gets back). Later

Edgy MD Aug 02 2017 02:22 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Injuries create needs. They've each played plenty of third.

Ceetar Aug 02 2017 02:23 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not sure how Wilmer Flores and T.J. Rivera failed to demonstrate that the Mets have plenty of options at third if Wright doesn't return. Infield depth isn't what has undone the team this year. well for one, neither of them walk enough.

Edgy MD Aug 02 2017 02:29 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

How much is enough? Nobody on this team save Granderson walks enough for my tastes. But they both walk more than, say, Mike Moustakas, so I'm not going to thumb my nose at the rest of their skills.

Ceetar Aug 02 2017 02:46 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

well, non-pitcher BB% is 8.7 Flores 5.2 T.J. Rivera 3.9 Moustakas 4.3 At least Moustakas' ISO is literally twice Rivera's so he gets his wRC+ up to 118 this season, but I'm not particularly advocating for him either.

Ashie62 Aug 02 2017 05:01 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

I wouldn't expect T.J to bounce back from major surgery.

Vic Sage Aug 02 2017 05:04 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

41Forever wrote: Here's the lineup i'd like to see for the rest of the season: Rosario (ss) Nimmo / Lagares (cf) Conforto (rf) Cespedes (Lf) Smith (1b) Flores (3b) Cecchini / Walker (2b) d"Arnaud (c) Trade Cabrera and Granderson (and Walker, too, if possible) by August trade deadline for whatever you can get for them. I'll even take 4 more A-ball relievers! Bruce? Unless you can get some value for him, keep him and make a QO in the off-season. The challenge with the lineup you suggest is that Bruce is closing in on 30 homers, among the league leaders, and I don't know how you can tell him to take a seat. Terry says to Jay: "Hey Jay, you know that $13million we're paying you? Well we want you to earn it by sitting over here, next to me. Get in a few games here and there, pinch-hit, play 1b once in a while. Cuz we know what you can do, and you ain't part of our plans going forward. Those kids? Nimmo, Smith, Rosario? Even Lagares, Flores, Cecchini? Them we still gotta find out if they can play everyday. You understand, right?" "Sure, coach. I just have to make a call..."

seawolf17 Aug 02 2017 05:48 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Bruce is under contract. There's not much he can do. And he seems, by all accounts, to be a good dude. But at the same time, he's 30 and is going to want to make a lot of money this offseason, and he's going to have a hard time doing that being a fourth OF, even when we do win the World Series.

Edgy MD Aug 02 2017 06:17 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

There's still plenty of time to trade Bruce, waive Bruce, or release him.

41Forever Aug 02 2017 07:52 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Edgy MD wrote: There's still plenty of time to trade Bruce, waive Bruce, or release him. You're gonna release the guy hitting 30+ homers and approaching 100 rbi?

Edgy MD Aug 02 2017 07:54 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

That's not the plan, no.

smg58 Aug 03 2017 01:03 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

30 HR and 100 RBI should mean that Bruce can afford to pass on a qualifying offer, and the draft pick would be worth more than anything he could get us back in August. And if he comes back that's OK too. So there's no point in dealing him right now.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 03 2017 01:07 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

They might be able to trade him for Oswald the Rabbit.

Edgy MD Aug 03 2017 01:36 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

smg58 wrote: 30 HR and 100 RBI should mean that Bruce can afford to pass on a qualifying offer, and the draft pick would be worth more than anything he could get us back in August. And if he comes back that's OK too. So there's no point in dealing him right now. And then the team may get a redux of the Walker situation. A player who isn't part of the plan accepting the offer, not having a position, and taking up a big chunk of the salary. Or alternatively, they carry him for the rest of the season, let him take at-bats from young players, he gets the offer, he rejects it, and the Mets get a pick between rounds two and three, the upside is two more months of burying their real centerfielders in exchange for ad second/third sandwich draft pick, and again, the risk of the former situation, that he accepts it. Neither situation is a disaster, but neither is ideal. I understand why the team may still be looking to trade.

Frayed Knot Aug 03 2017 01:51 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

Back to Wright for a second: Wright has recently begun "low level baseball activities," Mets assistant GM John Ricco announced Wednesday. He has started to field ground balls and hit off a tee.

seawolf17 Aug 03 2017 01:45 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Benjamin Grimm wrote: They might be able to trade him for Oswald the Rabbit. Oswald the Rabbit would probably have provided more value than, say, Tommy Milone has.

Ceetar Aug 03 2017 02:37 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Bruce has been surprisingly good this year, but let's not get too crazy about a 1-dimensional slugger with bad defense in this new juiced ball era. He's still got an 8.6 BB% compared to league average 8.9%. his .329 OBP is league average. He's fine. he's been better than average. He's 23rd in fWAR among outfielders. He's got a career high ISO and wRC+. Class contract year stuff. Judging by the interest he's gotten last offseason, this spring, this trade deadline, I'm not sure teams are willing to overpay for that.

MFS62 Aug 03 2017 02:46 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

seawolf17 wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: They might be able to trade him for Oswald the Rabbit. Oswald the Rabbit would probably have provided more value than, say, Tommy Milone has. I'm sure my stuffed Snowball doll (Secret Lives of Pets reference) does. Yes, I have one on my computer desk, a present from my wife. Its looking down on me as I type this. Later

smg58 Aug 03 2017 04:28 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Edgy MD wrote: And then the team may get a redux of the Walker situation. A player who isn't part of the plan accepting the offer, not having a position, and taking up a big chunk of the salary. Or alternatively, they carry him for the rest of the season, let him take at-bats from young players, he gets the offer, he rejects it, and the Mets get a pick between rounds two and three, the upside is two more months of burying their real centerfielders in exchange for ad second/third sandwich draft pick, and again, the risk of the former situation, that he accepts it. Neither situation is a disaster, but neither is ideal. I understand why the team may still be looking to trade. Walker would have worked out fine if he didn't lose six weeks. The Mets didn't (and still don't) have a better option at second base. Cecchini, like Herrera last year, has given the Mets reasons to keep him in AAA. (Herrera, by the way, has yet to play an inning with the Reds and is out for the year. The bright side is that we might be able to claim him on waivers this offseason.) Maybe it prevented the Mets from making a long-term offer to a better second baseman, but there's no guarantee of that. I'll agree that the Bruce situation is less cut-and-dried. The Mets have enough outfield depth in house to justify moving on. But if other teams insist on not valuing players that have value, we might as well hold on to them. Walker's salary will be off the books, as will Granderson's. That leaves a fair amount of money to play with even if Bruce does come back.

Edgy MD Aug 03 2017 04:39 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Sure they had a better option. Play TJ Rivera, and spend that Walker money elsewhere, perhaps on a big fat reliever, one that laughs at puny Fernando Salas—HAH-HAH! Perhaps on another second baseman. Seventeen million smackeroonies!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Aug 03 2017 05:16 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

The thing about Bruce (and any other potential QO recipients) is that he wouldn't net us an end-of-first-round pick unless he signed somewhere for $50M or more (thanks to the new CBA). If teams outside of Queens weren't interested in trading for him as a rental during a near-career-year, do you think they're paying that much over 3-plus-years to bring him on? Back to Wright for a second: Wright has recently begun "low level baseball activities," Mets assistant GM John Ricco announced Wednesday. He has started to field ground balls and hit off a tee. My daughter has taken part in in more baseball activities than DW has this season, and she doesn't play organized ball.

Chad Ochoseis Aug 03 2017 06:34 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: The thing about Bruce (and any other potential QO recipients) is that he wouldn't net us an end-of-first-round pick unless he signed somewhere for $50M or more (thanks to the new CBA). If teams outside of Queens weren't interested in trading for him as a rental during a near-career-year, do you think they're paying that much over 3-plus-years to bring him on? I don't think this is correct, based on the labyrinthine rule as discussed here. It sounds like the only function of the $50M rule is to give a revenue-sharing team a higher compensation pick than it would otherwise be awarded. MLB's website wrote: The Draft-pick compensation is also based on the financial status of the free agent's former team. If a free agent who rejected a qualifying offer signs a contract that is worth at least a guaranteed $50 million in total value, and his previous club is one of the teams that receives revenue sharing, said club will be given a compensatory pick immediately following Round 1 in the next year's Draft. If such a club loses a free agent for a contract worth less than a guaranteed $50 million in total value, the club will receive a compensatory pick after Competitive Balance Round B (which follows the second round). If a qualifying-offer free agent's previous team is over the luxury-tax threshold, said team will receive a compensation pick after the fourth round has been completed. If a team neither exceeded the luxury tax in the preceding season nor receives revenue sharing, its compensatory pick will come after Competitive Balance Round B. The value of the free agent's new contract has no impact on the compensation pick in both of these cases. I'm with smg on this - assuming we do get a mid-level compensatory pick if he declines, there's no harm in QOing Bruce and, if he accepts, trading Nimmo or keeping him on as a 4th outfielder. The better outcome is that Bruce goes away, but the worst outcome is that we non-tender him and get nothing in return. Besides Walker, has any player ever accepted a QO? It's somewhere between a serious offer and a kick in the ass. But much closer to a kick in the ass. What I didn't realize about QOs until I read MLB's website is that they can only be made once in a player's career. You can't keep QOing a Bruce-level player until he forces the issue either by moving on or playing below the level where he's worth the trouble.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 03 2017 06:37 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

The once-in-a-lifetime thing for the QO is new this year, a result of the new Collective Bargaining Agreement. Until last year, nobody had accepted a QO, so the Mets probably felt that they were safe to assume that Walker wouldn't. But he did, and I think a few other players on other teams did as well. So that's now no longer a safe assumption to make.

Frayed Knot Aug 03 2017 07:06 PM Re: Things That Still Matter

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Until last year, nobody had accepted a QO, so the Mets probably felt that they were safe to assume that Walker wouldn't. But he did, and I think a few other players on other teams did as well. So that's now no longer a safe assumption to make. Until two years ago no one had accepted a QO, but three players did so in the year prior to Walker so his acceptance, while still the exception rather than the rule, wasn't precedent breaking. Of course the QO system isn't all that old so there's a limited history on them anyway.

smg58 Aug 04 2017 12:53 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

I think I remember Greg Maddux accepting a QO (or whatever the equivalent was in the old system) when the Braves assumed that he wouldn't, and they wound up having to trade another pitcher to keep their payroll from getting bloated. So it has happened. I think more players are starting to realize that sometimes you're better off accepting the offer, though. My only gripe with Rivera and Flores is that they are basically the same player -- righthanded utility infielders who are more bat than glove, and can give you a decent average and power even if they don't walk as much as you'd like. They're very useful reserves, but they haven't given any indication of being more than that. I'm not sure the Mets really need both of them. Rivera's injury might render that moot, but I was under the impression it was similar in type and severity to Seth Lugo's injury, and Lugo (keep in mind he's a pitcher and Rivera isn't) was able to recover from the injury without needing surgery.

Frayed Knot Aug 04 2017 02:38 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

smg58 wrote: I think more players are starting to realize that sometimes you're better off accepting the offer, though. Because they realized what a drag on FA-gency it was to have a QO attached to their necks. Go back, I guess it was three years ago now, to when Ian Desmond plus a couple other players coming off good years went virtually ignored and wound up signing short-term deals from less than the QO because teams knew signing them would cost both money and the draft pick. In the end it was a bit ironic that, by reducing the number of FAs who had compensation attached as compared to the old 'Type A / Type B' system which predated it, the QO system wound up making the few who did qualify for draft picks in return even more tainted and avoided. Now that the number qualifying will be reduced even more starting with this winter's crop, the new rules might make it tougher still for those who will draw the max compensation.

smg58 Aug 04 2017 11:29 AM Re: Things That Still Matter

I remember Stephen Drew refusing to take the QO, then refusing to take anything he thought was less than he was worth. He wound up sitting for more than half a season, and his career never recovered. The old system sorted out type A and type B by position, and was particularly brutal towards relief pitchers. The new system is an improvement, but it is still a long way from perfect. One thing I would do is give the player more than a week to accept or reject the offer. The more time you have to gauge the market, the easier the decision will be. And the easiest way to discourage GMs from offering the QO to borderline players is for some borderline players to take it.