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Al Leiter Retires.

metirish Mar 19 2006 08:49 PM

I just heard on the news that Leiter retired after getting one out in a game today.....

Frayed Knot Mar 19 2006 08:57 PM

Yeah I think that ws pretty much a planned exit. The Yanx didn't even have a legit job opening for him even if he pitched well. Maybe he was hoping to impress in ST as an audition for some place else - but where exactly was he going to go anyway? But now I guess since he officially retired as a Yanqui, the number retiring ceremony will be scheduled for later this year.

metirish Mar 19 2006 09:03 PM

I bet he moves straight to the YES booth.

cooby Mar 19 2006 09:05 PM Re: Al Leiter Retires.

metirish wrote: I just heard on the news that Leiter retired after getting one out in a game today..... How many hours did that take?

soupcan Mar 19 2006 09:17 PM

Good riddance.

Edgy DC Mar 19 2006 09:20 PM

Willets isn't done with him yet.

Willets Point Mar 19 2006 09:29 PM

What-huh?

Willets Point Mar 19 2006 09:39 PM

Oh wait a minute I got it now. Staring me in the face when I view my post. You know something, I totally forgot about that series of Being Mets Player So & So memories threads. I can't even remember what the last one I did or how many I must have skipped. I suck. So let me do Leiter. First memory of Al is from the 1997 World Series where I was convinced he looked like this guy I worked with named Ron. January 1998 I'm traveling around Ireland and I have 30 minutes in a cybercafe. After checking my emails & such I have a few minutes left and look at Metsonline and in the forum I see a post that says "Hey, we got Al Leiter!" So now the Mets have a top starter from World Series champions and he turns out pretty good. I 1999 he helps the Mets into the playoffs. He pitches brilliantly the wild card playoff against Cincinnatti, but later trashes the diner against Atlanta (tip o' the pen to Edgy). Somewhere in the post-season of 1999 or 2000 a guy on the radio says "Al Leiter will have to be Al Leiter if the Mets are to win this series." To this day my wife brings up "Leiter being Leiter" anytime his name comes up. As the Mets descend from playoff team to cellar dweller, Al goes with them and annoys the hell out of Mets fans by working long counts on every batter. It was a relief when he finally left the team, but I still have soft part in my heart for Al Leiter when he was Al Leiter from 1998-2001.

KC Mar 20 2006 05:13 AM

We have to re-rank every Mets season, there's no way Al Leiter was the 12th best Met player ever.

vtmet Mar 20 2006 05:30 AM

12th best pitcher would even be questionable, let alone 12th best player...

MFS62 Mar 20 2006 05:50 AM

soupcan wrote: Good riddance. Yep. He hadn't retired anyone else for a few years. Later

vtmet Mar 20 2006 07:03 AM

speaking of old dried up lefties that should have been put out to pasture years ago...has Johnnie Tomato Franco officially called it quits yet? Or is still trying to stick around long enough to give up Barry Bonds HR to break Hank Aaron's record? He needs someway into the record books, it put Al Downing into the record books...it would probably work for Franco as well...

Edgy DC Mar 20 2006 07:05 AM

Let's get away from "best" and work with "most accomplished" which is really what we're out to rank. I don't care personally, because I didn't do all the rankings (though I did rank him top Met performer in 1998, I think), and I know thet system is flawed, but who are the 12 more accomplished pitchers?

sharpie Mar 20 2006 07:05 AM

I'm sure he must have retired. He coached, and didn't play, for Italy in the WBC.

Elster88 Mar 20 2006 07:12 AM

Willets Point wrote: First memory of Al is from the 1997 World Series where I was convinced he looked like this guy I worked with named Ron. January When I first skimmed through I thought this said "this guy I worked with named Ron Jeremy".

Elster88 Mar 20 2006 07:14 AM

vtmet wrote: speaking of old dried up lefties that should have been put out to pasture years ago...has Johnnie Tomato Franco officially called it quits yet? What is the point of calling him "Tomato"? Are you out to coin new nicknames, too?

silverdsl Mar 20 2006 08:03 AM

I've been a fan of Leiter's long before he came back to the Yankees last season. While his best years were clearly well behind him Leiter did pitch well for the Yankees last season when they really needed him to in that one game against the Red Sox. What I thought was pretty neat was that it was said yesterday that Leiter was the first pitcher in MLB history to defeat all 30 teams. That's a kind of cool accomplishment to go with all his other achievements - two-time All-star, part of two WS winning teams, helped the Mets to their WS appearance. I've also long admired Leiter for how much charitable work he's done. I know a lot of Mets are very down on Leiter but he has always seemed like a pretty good guy to me - he was one of the only Yankees to sign an autograph for my cousin at a game last season. I hope he becomes part of the YES broadcast team.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 20 2006 08:11 AM

I still think Leiter's a good guy.

KC Mar 20 2006 08:16 AM

Edge, jeez ... the system ain't all that flawed. It's just tough sometimes in some cases to look at player x and say he was the 12th most accomplished Mets player of all time standing - just looking at the list and all. I'm just sayin'.

Frayed Knot Mar 20 2006 08:20 AM

Al was just fine for the majority of his time as a Met and was terrific for a significant chunk of it.

MFS62 Mar 20 2006 08:22 AM

Wins: Tom Seaver 198 Dwight Gooden 157 Jerry Koosman 140 Ron Darling 99 Sid Fernandez 98 Al Leiter 95 Strikeouts: Tom Seaver 2541 Dwight Gooden 1875 Jerry Koosman 1799 Sid Fernandez 1449 David Cone 1172 Ron Darling 1148 Al Leiter 1106 Starts: Tom Seaver 395 Jerry Koosman 346 Dwight Gooden 303 Sid Fernandez 250 Ron Darling 241 Al Leiter 213

Frayed Knot Mar 20 2006 08:27 AM

And on the CPF list, the only winning-er pitcher that's behind Al is Darling (and just barely) while the only other person mentioned on any of those 3 lists who's also behind him is Cone (and, again, not by much).

Elster88 Mar 20 2006 08:28 AM

....and with that, vtmet's assertion is blown to pieces.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 20 2006 08:29 AM

So that projects Leiter as the Mets' 6th best starting pitcher (or 7th, depending on where Coney ranks in the two categories he's not listed in). factor in relievers (Jesse and Tug have to rank pretty high, I'd say) and then such hitters as Piazza, Strawberry, Hernandez, Carter, Alfonzo, Cleon, and 12th starts to look like a reach.

metirish Mar 20 2006 08:30 AM

]What is the point of calling him "Tomato"? Are you out to coin new nicknames, too? I assume because Franco used to have a tomato patch in the bullpen.

Elster88 Mar 20 2006 08:32 AM

12th may be a bit high, but the assertions I'm talking about are ]12th best pitcher would even be questionable, let alone 12th best player... Al's in the top 12 for pitchers, and 12th player is not nearly as ridiculous as implied here.

Vic Sage Mar 20 2006 08:41 AM

Ranking Lieter as the #6 pitcher, and #12 overall, seem like reasonable projections to me, give or take a few slots. I could see him as low as 8th pitcher, and down to 15th overall, but beyond that, i think peeps are just projecting their own dislike into their evaluation of Al's Met career. And why people dislike Al is beyond me. He's probably the only Republican I've liked since reading about Teddy Roosevelt and Abe Lincoln. He came up as a MFY, so i don't fault him for "returning home" as it were. The fact that we got better seasons out of him than the Yanks ever did takes the sting out it for me.

Frayed Knot Mar 20 2006 08:43 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: So that projects Leiter as the Mets' 6th best starting pitcher (or 7th, depending on where Coney ranks in the two categories he's not listed in). 5th best by our count - Darling just falls short. Maybe that's a flaw in our system whereas Ronnie boy got lower scores as aresult of having better & higher-scoring teammates although our rules do account for that somewhat. ]factor in relievers (Jesse and Tug have to rank pretty high, I'd say) But not high enough - although Franco is. And it's funny how people forget how trashed Jesse was in NYM circles at the time. Time wounds all heels I guess. ]and then such hitters as Piazza, Strawberry, Hernandez, Carter, Alfonzo, Cleon, and 12th starts to look like a reach Yes, Yes, No, No, Yes, and Yes Remember that this list has a cumulative score to it so longevity factors into things big time. Carter had only about 3 good NYM years and is considerably lower than most suppose. Cone's in the same boat. Our TV announcers occupy the two slots right behind Senator Al.

sharpie Mar 20 2006 08:44 AM

I'm with Vic. It was hard watching him in his last season or two with the Mets but he's a decent guy who was always trying his best even as his talent was slipping away from him. I like to think that we got most of his best years and he's ultimately more of a Met than he is a Yankee, Blue Jay or Marlin.

seawolf17 Mar 20 2006 08:44 AM

Leiter had seven solid, productive seasons, starting 30 games a year and averaging 13-14 wins per season. He also had three second-place finishes and one third-place finish, so the weighting helps boost his total. Look who's behind Leiter: 13 Hernandez - Four good seasons, one WS, one NLCS. 14 Darling - Six good seasons, one WS, one NLCS. 15 McGraw - Five good seasons, one WS, one NLCS. 16 Wilson - Six good seasons, one WS, one NLCS. 17 Grote - Eight seasons as an everyday catcher, but not a terribly impressive statistical career. One WS, one NLCS. 18 McReynolds - Five good seasons, one NLCS. 19 Matlack - Five good seasons, one NLCS. 20 Staub - Three good seasons, then basically PH duty. 21 Cone - Five good seasons, one NLCS. 22 Harrelson - Career Met high is 42 RBI. 23 Orosco - Five seasons as half a closer, one memorable thrown glove. 24 Benitez - Five good -- if star-crossed -- seasons as a closer. 25 Agee - Two great seasons, two good seasons, one WS. I think Al Leiter might just be correct right where he is.

Zvon Mar 20 2006 10:14 AM

Aww. Im gonna miss seeing him pitch. I knew he was pretty much done but I thought he'd squeeze in another season in 2006. What I remember most about Al is his intensity. And he was just as intense when he talked baseball. I saw him on Tim McCarvers talk show. Him, Tim and Jim Kaat were talking baseball. And Al was so intense, and said some very interesting things. One thing that comes to mind is he said hitters today have an unfair advantage over pitchers and hitters or yesteryear because of all the armor they are allowed to wear, specifically the arm guard. He said thats why you see batters hanging over the plate with no fear of the inside pitch. He said its unfair and gives batters a huge edge that he feels they shouldnt have. And he was so intense about it. Hope he stays involved with the game on some level.

KC Mar 20 2006 10:19 AM

I don't know what made me think I could slip a Al Leiter is way over-ranked fastball past this crew.

Johnny Dickshot Mar 20 2006 10:19 AM

Al was great, and a great Met, despite whether or not he conspired to overthrow Valentine or became too important in the eyes of the Wilpons or whatever other crap he may have been guilty of. Back in like, 99 and 2000, throwing so hard he made audible grunts with every pitch, making weird faces, getting all awkward whenever a ball was hit to him, knocking all those bats out of the hands of RH hittters... A memorable and oftentimes historic Met. Good guy.

ScarletKnight41 Mar 20 2006 10:21 AM

MK always grew up admiring Al Leiter, a left-handed pitcher from New Jersey who grew up rooting for the Mets. And Alois has always been very good about signing autographs for MK and his siblings. Thus, I will simply wish him a happy retirement with his family.

Willets Point Mar 20 2006 10:23 AM

I'm dissapointed that during Leiter's appearance in the WBC that the announcers did not inform me this could be his last appearance.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 20 2006 10:31 AM

I have no problem with washed up veterans trying to eke out a few more years of ML salaries. I do have problems with teams that twist themselves into pretzels agreeing with that argument, and with sentimental fans deceiving themselves into thinking that a guy can pitch in '04 because of how he pitched in '99. Judge how Leiter pitches by what you see on the field, and what the stat sheet says, and not the bullcrap he spouts in interviews. I'll never forget how, in some post-season TV commentary, Leiter justified going to a full count on every batter, arguing that "going after" batters, pitching aggressively, challenging them, throwing strikes is not good baseball.

Elster88 Mar 20 2006 10:37 AM

]Leiter justified going to a full count on every batter, arguing that "going after" batters, pitching aggressively, challenging them, throwing strikes is not good baseball. I think I remember what you're talking about: What I'm remembering is he said something like: "Now that he's got him 0-2, he has 3 pitches to try to fool him with before he has to throw another strike."

Johnny Dickshot Mar 20 2006 10:41 AM

IIRC, I wrote that quote here when it happened, obviously to share with the rest of you how Leiter thought about the particular situation. Bret has used that comment ever since to build a case against "Met stupidity."

Elster88 Mar 20 2006 10:43 AM

Probably lost in the old CPF?

Johnny Dickshot Mar 20 2006 10:49 AM

I'm sure. It was the 2003 or maybe 2002 playoffs when he served as a guest analyst. You pretty much remembered the gist of what he said; which was obviously was said in the context of a particular situation and wasn't the answer to the question: Describe your entire philosophy of pitching.

Elster88 Mar 20 2006 10:50 AM

]I'm sure. It was the 2003 or maybe 2002 playoffs when he served as a guest analyst. You pretty much remembered the gist of what he said; which was obviously was said in the context of a particular situation and wasn't the answer to the question: Describe your entire philosophy of pitching. Haha yup. I was thinking '04.

Edgy DC Mar 20 2006 10:56 AM

Unmentinoed in this thread: Leiter's engineering of the Kazmir/Zambrano deal because Kazmir snottily changed the clubhouse music in spring training.

seawolf17 Mar 20 2006 11:00 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Unmentinoed in this thread: Leiter's engineering of the Kazmir/Zambrano deal because Kazmir snottily changed the clubhouse music in spring training. I thought Kazmir smacked up someone's car. Or was that Justin Huber?

Edgy DC Mar 20 2006 11:02 AM

No, Kazzy appparently wrecked a car.

KC Mar 20 2006 11:06 AM

The Mets have people plant those stories on internet boards and feed 'em to the newspapers to distract attention away from the real powers that be who are making poor decision after another. If some of you would pull your god damn lips off the kool-aid baba nipple for five seconds you'd wake up and see what's really going down right under your collective noses.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 20 2006 11:27 AM

Yuck. I'd hate to have a collective nose. I'd probably be constantly sneezing.

seawolf17 Mar 20 2006 11:30 AM

Or, worse, collective noses, as in more than one. That would require a lot of tissues.

Edgy DC Mar 20 2006 11:45 AM

]Derek Jeter and Al Leiter, who played with Roger Clemens on Team USA, said they talked to him about rejoining the Yankees. Jeter, for one, says he is convinced Clemens will not retire. --- The New York Times

seawolf17 Mar 20 2006 11:58 AM

="Edgy DC"] ]Derek Jeter and Al Leiter, who played with Roger Clemens on Team USA, said they talked to him about rejoining the Yankees. Jeter, for one, says he is convinced Clemens will not retire. --- The New York Times Hmm....

metirish Mar 20 2006 12:02 PM

I would consider my position as a Mets fan if Clemens joined the team, still if it was a one time deal and he helped win a WS I could live with that....."thanks Rajah, now fuck off you prick"

rpackrat Mar 20 2006 12:08 PM

KC, Your avatar is giving me a headache!

Nymr83 Mar 20 2006 12:15 PM

="KC"]We have to re-rank every Mets season, there's no way Al Leiter was the 12th best Met player ever. Seaver, Koosman, Gooden, Strawberry, Piazza, Hernandez, Carter, Kranepool, Agee...that all the guys who are to me clearly better off the top of my head. I'm sure there are a couple i'm missing and a good 5-10 more who are arguable but i don't think 12th is wildly off

Nymr83 Mar 20 2006 12:16 PM

KC wrote: The Mets have people plant those stories on internet boards and feed 'em to the newspapers to distract attention away from the real powers that be who are making poor decision after another. If some of you would pull your god damn lips off the kool-aid baba nipple for five seconds you'd wake up and see what's really going down right under your collective noses. Bret, i'm pretty sure logging into other peoples' accounts should be a bannable offense! :)

Bret Sabermetric Mar 20 2006 05:13 PM

I'm sure he wasn't philosophizing about pitching in general,but I'm even surer that he wasn't describing the pitcher/batter match up at hand either. Much more like a "What should he do now that he's got him 0-2, Al?" I was, and am, appalled at his answer, which was plainly his own practice late in his career.

Nymr83 Mar 20 2006 05:16 PM

otoh i'd have to say theres no excuse for giving the batter a hittable pitch on an 0-2 count because you have 3 more pitches to work with after that. the 1-2 pitch should be near the zone (an attempt to cut a corner might be a good idea here) the 2-2 pitch should be "normal."

mlbaseballtalk Mar 20 2006 07:13 PM

KC wrote: The Mets have people plant those stories on internet boards and feed 'em to the newspapers to distract attention away from the real powers that be who are making poor decision after another. If some of you would pull your god damn lips off the kool-aid baba nipple for five seconds you'd wake up and see what's really going down right under your collective noses. I love Michael Kay's response whenever someone tries to call Leiter out on this stuff. Basically Kay's response is "You can't win, because people will always say 'well he's obviously lying' "

Rotblatt Mar 20 2006 07:34 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I do have problems with teams that twist themselves into pretzels agreeing with that argument, and with sentimental fans deceiving themselves into thinking that a guy can pitch in '04 because of how he pitched in '99. Judge how Leiter pitches by what you see on the field, and what the stat sheet says, and not the bullcrap he spouts in interviews. I'm assuming you're referring to Leiter's 04 season, which I just don't get. Leiter was tough to watch because he didn't put people away in '04, but his results were undeinable: 173.2 IP, 3.21 ERA, 1.35 WHIP, 6.1 K/9. That's a 133 ERA+. I'd be estatic if any one of our 2-5 pitchers managed that this year. Now, I'd be the first to say that his peripherals were troubling--his 2004 1.27 K/BB was the lowest in a steady, year-by-year decline, and he flat out sucked in August & September. Regardless, he was extremely effective in 2004. The peripherals really just indicated that he wasn't likely to remain that effective. Given that we (wisely) didn't resign him, I don't think Mets fans have any beef with how management handled Leiter during his decline years. ERA+ (IP) for the Mets by year, starting in 1998: 170 (193 IP), 104 (213 IP), 136 (187.3 IP), 124 (204.3 IP), 112 (180.7 IP), 106 (173.7 IP), 133 (173.7 IP). That's pretty darn good.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 20 2006 08:43 PM

He was brutal over the second half, though he was good trade bait the first half. The Mets thought they were headed to the Series in 04, so held on to him. He drove me nuts that year, going full count to every batter, rarely pitching more than six innings, forcing Howe to go to the bullpen too much.

metirish Mar 20 2006 08:45 PM

Did anyone really think that the Mets were going to the series in 04?....I didn't and that's not bullshit.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 20 2006 08:49 PM

Well, if you had Leiter, 38 years old at the end of his contract, a FA at the end of the season, good numbers through July, why else wouldn't you trade him to a contender?

metirish Mar 20 2006 08:53 PM

I do seem to remember some chatter about trading Al at that time, perhaps if Omar was the GM he would have, maybe the Wilpons didn't want to trade him, who knows Bret.

Elster88 Mar 21 2006 07:23 AM

mlbaseballtalk wrote: ="KC"]The Mets have people plant those stories on internet boards and feed 'em to the newspapers to distract attention away from the real powers that be who are making poor decision after another. If some of you would pull your god damn lips off the kool-aid baba nipple for five seconds you'd wake up and see what's really going down right under your collective noses. I love Michael Kay's response whenever someone tries to call Leiter out on this stuff. Basically Kay's response is "You can't win, because people will always say 'well he's obviously lying' " Kay actually makes a very good point here. "Well, he's obviously lying" is a response I see a lot, even on this board.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 21 2006 07:29 AM

You've never seen it on this board. You're obviously lying.