Forum Home

Master Index of Archived Threads


Fred! Still at it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 28 2017 11:53 PM

Fred's had a thing for white-haired baseball guys forever but this is shocking.

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ ... 1.14297441




Sources: Mets owner Fred Wilpon protected Terry Collins from getting fired
Updated September 28, 2017 7:43 PM
By Marc Carig marc.carig@newsday.com


Mets owner Fred Wilpon repeatedly protected Terry Collins, even as his son, chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon, and general manager Sandy Alderson sought the manager’s dismissal at various points during his tenure, an example of rifts that resurfaced as a season of promise slipped away, according to more than a dozen team insiders interviewed by Newsday.

People with knowledge of the situation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, described organizational dysfunction, discord between Collins and his players, and a broken relationship between the manager and the front office.

Despite what the front office perceived as Collins’ constant tactical blunders and concerns about his relationships with the players, sources said efforts to explore a change seriously were thwarted by the elder Wilpon.

“I don’t interfere,” Fred Wilpon said while declining an interview request earlier this season.

The 80-year-old owner keeps a low public profile and has not spoken at length about his team since 2013. But privately, his influence in baseball matters still looms large, as shown by his ability to single-handedly shield Collins, whom he visited frequently in the manager’s office before games.

“He got too chummy with him,” one team official said.

The Wilpons, Alderson and Collins declined to comment.

ADVERTISEMENT | ADVERTISE ON NEWSDAY
With Collins’ contract up at season’s end, the franchise’s longest-tenured manager has stated publicly that he has no intention of retiring. Yet the Mets have not expressed any intention of retaining him in the role he’s had since 2011.

“Terry has no allies in the front office,” one official said.

On Wednesday, Collins’ final game at Citi Field this season passed without any public recognition for his place in franchise history. There will likely be no classy send-off for a manager who shepherded the Mets through a difficult rebuilding before the prosperity of consecutive playoff appearances in 2015 and 2016.

Instead, Collins has been forced to field questions about his uncertain future.

Wilpon’s interventions seem to have only delayed the inevitable during what has been a tough slog to the finish line, leaving Collins in the awkward position of working with a front office that had afforded him little trust or confidence. Amid that constant tension, the team spiraled further out of contention while the clubhouse ultimately soured on Collins.

Mets videos

Wearing out his welcome
As recently as 2015, when the Mets stormed to the National League pennant, Collins earned praise for his handling of the clubhouse. He leaned on his veterans for leadership. Winning made the front-office squabbles more tolerable. Alderson originally hired Collins partly because he valued a voice that differed from his.

In 2016, with whispers growing that the ax might fall on Collins, the Mets made an inspired run that led to the wild-card game. Again, sources said Collins and the front office had their skirmishes, but success provided a cushion.

The 2017 season brought all of the expectations of the year before. But it brought none of the winning. As the losses mounted, the give-and-take took on a different tone.

Collins increasingly resisted input, several Mets officials said, a stark departure from his earlier years with the team. Bullpen management became a constant battleground, with Collins facing criticism for overusing his most trusted arms as the Mets staggered at the start of the season.

ADVERTISEMENT | ADVERTISE ON NEWSDAY
With teams becoming more mindful about the wear and tear of using relief pitchers on consecutive days, the Mets lead baseball in that category, asking their bullpen arms to work back-to-back games 126 times.

By mid-May, Jerry Blevins led baseball with nine appearances with no days’ rest, with Addison Reed tied for second with eight back-to-backs. Fernando Salas (seven), Hansel Robles (six) and Jeurys Familia (five) were among five Mets pitchers with five or more consecutive appearances.

Only 21 other pitchers in all of baseball had been exposed to that kind of workload. There would be a heavy price to pay. Mets relievers have a 4.74 ERA, the highest in the NL.

“Once he falls in love with you, he abuses you,” one official said. “He has run players into the ground. He has no idea about resting players. Even when you tell him, he doesn’t listen.”

The disconnect became even more apparent later in the season, as the Mets’ handling of injuries drew criticism. Collins often was not briefed fully on the injuries, forcing him into the uncomfortable situation of fielding daily questions about health woes with nothing more at his disposal than official news releases.

ADVERTISEMENT | ADVERTISE ON NEWSDAY
Communication breakdowns
Communication issues also arose with players, team insiders said, leading to a loss of support within the clubhouse.

Veterans often heard of decisions about playing time through media reports rather than from the manager. Younger players described discovering that Collins had harbored concerns about certain parts of their game, though he didn’t bother to share them directly.

Adding to the frustration, team insiders said, was that Collins created an image through the media as a strong communicator who backs up his players. Players and officials saw that portrayal as inaccurate.

“He has always been difficult to communicate with,” one Met said. “It would be a surprise if he said ‘hey’ to you when you passed each other in the hallway if your name wasn’t [Matt] Harvey or [Yoenis] Cespedes. It’s always been those couple things along with some of the in-game decisions he makes.”

The nadir came shortly after the Mets traded most of their veterans, many of whom had taken an active role in maintaining a functional clubhouse culture. Collins made little secret about his preference for giving the vets more playing time at the expense of younger players, who groused about it.

The trades left the clubhouse filled with the same types of young players who sources said had grown to resent the manager. Collins found himself unable to stem the growing discontent, conjuring unflattering comparisons to the player rancor that ended his previous managerial stops with the Astros and Angels.

Said one Met: “We were all miserable.”

Adding insult to injuries
Some of Collins’ critics acknowledged that no manager likely would have overcome the rash of injuries that left a talented roster a shell of itself, with Noah Syndergaard, Cespedes and Jeurys Familia all missing significant time. Steven Matz and Matt Harvey never returned to their pre-injury form.

Some of the issues, one player suggested, were out of the manager’s control.

“He did what he could with what he had, but I believe that it turned out that the inmates ran the asylum a bit,” the player said. “He had three or four personalities in there that he essentially had no control over for a multitude of reasons, ranging from the front office allowing it, to guys just not respecting authority at all.”

Even by Mets standards, the season brought a wave of distractions, ranging from a sex toy appearing in a social media post to Harvey’s no-show at Citi Field after partying on Cinco de Mayo. Syndergaard’s lat injury came after he infamously declined an MRI exam.

Not even Mr. Met was spared from controversy after a fan captured an image of the family-friendly mascot flashing an obscene gesture.

Now, as the Mets retool for next season, they face myriad challenges.

On the field, the Mets must find bats for the outfield and infield, in addition to adding another proven arm for the bullpen and perhaps another for the rotation.

Off the field, the Mets may also be in the market for a new pitching coach, with another Fred Wilpon favorite, Dan Warthen, on shaky ground after a season in which injuries wrecked the pitching staff. And it’s possible that the Mets need a new hitting coach, as it’s unclear if Kevin Long would remain if he’s not considered for the manager’s job should Collins not be retained.

Like Collins, Alderson is in the final year of his contract, but the general manager has given no indication that he wants to leave. It’s clear that the Mets would like better cohesion between team executives and the manager’s office.

Team officials said the Mets would prefer a manager more receptive to analytics with a sense for using the modern bullpen. It’s a skill that will be even more important next season, when an eight-man bullpen could be the norm.

But choosing who occupies the manager’s office may be just the first move in an offseason of huge change for a franchise that appears in need of it.

“It was Murphy’s Law in Queens this year, that’s the bottom line,” one player said. “And with that type of stuff happening, there’s almost no choice but for turmoil to follow.”

Copyright © 2017 Newsday. All rights reserved.

d'Kong76
Sep 29 2017 12:08 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

That's a mouthful to chew on; hell, it's 3 1/12 mouthfuls to chew on.

Ceetar
Sep 29 2017 12:16 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

“It was Murphy’s Law in Queens this year, that’s the bottom line,” one player said. “And with that type of stuff happening, there’s almost no choice but for turmoil to follow.”


pretty much sums it up.

my favorite is the things touted as virtues when we were winning are issues when we're losing.

It's either that or how you could've written this story at roughly any managerial firing without changing very much.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 29 2017 12:31 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

I know how little respect you have for journalists, but a club's COO being overruled by his 80-year-old father is not an aspect of "roughly any" managerial controversy.

Ceetar
Sep 29 2017 12:35 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I know how little respect you have for journalists, but a club's COO being overruled by his 80-year-old father is not an aspect of "roughly any" managerial controversy.


I don't believe that happened that way.

I don't like how formulaic the article is.

and the timing is, as usual, suspect. It's not June. It's the end of the season after the last home game.

And you could swap Wilpon for DeWitt and Collins for Matheny and post that in St Louis and everyone would believe it was written about them.

Ashie62
Sep 29 2017 01:15 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

If true, not the Terry I pictured.

True or false, please RETIRE OR MOVE ALONG Terry.

MFS62
Sep 29 2017 01:23 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Not word for word the way I've perceived Terry over the years, but I can believe it.

Later

Edgy MD
Sep 29 2017 02:06 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Interesting that the creamy middle was all about bullpen overusage.

It indeed harkens back to 2010. Another manager on the brink also used a righthander named Fernando (Nieve) on an almost-nightly basis through April, and as with Salas, the guy had become a liability by mid-May. One chink in the armor is lost, one thread unravels, and the disaster cascades from there.

Checking the numbers and Nieve finished the season with an ERA of (jaw drops) 6.00! Why that is exactly the ERA Salas finished his 2017 Mets season with! Terry turned out to be White Jerry in the end after all!

Frayed Knot
Sep 29 2017 02:52 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

THOUGHTS ON THE THREAD!!!

1) It's rarely a good thing to have the owner intervene in areas where he supposedly hired people to handle.
I think this has been perhaps the biggest overall problem with the Wilpon era is that he (now they) get caught in between how much they want to delegate and how much to meddle

2) "Discord" between him and the players -- I hear this in James Cagney's voice from 'Mister Roberts' as "Disharmony aboard this ship!!" -- is a new one on me.
Maybe it's true, but hearing about it for the first time with three days left in a seven year run?!?! And more discord this year during a losing season? Wow, whoda thunk that!!

3) Not sure how to react to the notion that the young players felt he was favoring the veterans.
Who was he supposed to play through to the trade deadline? Plus it's not exactly like the was a dugout full of rooks spraying balls all over the park who were forced to sit while some past his
prime vet was taking his ABs.

4) "Misuse of bullpen" is a complaint made only by about 30 fan bases; it's generally code for 'the guy he brought in just got hit'.
Not that there aren't IGTs we my voice and others asking 'why this guy, why now?' but you really thing those are going away with someone else?
Biggest problem with the pen, certainly this season anyway, was the starters habit of giving up 6 runs and 9 hits plus 2 walks on 37 pitches in the 1st inning every other night.



Well anyway, this seems to be a done deal now and if this article is even 20% accurate then it's time. He had a long run and, IMO, a more than decent one.
It's a shame that the finger pointers come out in the closing days, but when was this org ever able to keep anything under wraps if there were competing factions trying to score points somewhere?

Frayed Knot
Sep 29 2017 03:20 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Just as an aside, both the Post & Snooze are now carrying this story also.
The NYDN piece cites Carig/Newsday as their main source for the story.
The Post does no such thing even though it doesn't seem to have any original, or at least additional, reporting or quotes of their own.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Sep 29 2017 05:58 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Re: bullpen usage.

There's a difference between "Why did he bring in X when the matchup suggested bringing in Y?" and "Why did he bring in X, because he's got a five-run lead/deficit, and X pitched each of the last two nights?" As a bullpen manager, he has been terrible at managing the arms in his pen.

I'm not sure I entirely buy this stubborn-Terry take, but I can't deny it has some waft of legitimacy because his onfield decision-making hasn't been suggestive of a greater design,
as most front-office-driven stuff tends to be. Good managers in all fields know to trust subject-matter experts in areas in which they themselves are not as well- versed. Poor managers react defensively to the unfamiliar. Even when he was ostensibly "more open" to other input, his post game interviews were more shrug-filled, as if he were saying "Hey, I just work here."

The no eye-contact stuff is kinda damming, and doesn't seem like the kind of thing reporters make up out of while cloth.

G-Fafif
Sep 29 2017 10:33 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

It's almost as if people who work together in close quarters over a long period of time get sick of each other, particularly when things aren't going well.

Carig is regularly featured on the Mets radio broadcast as "an insider" and appears frequently on an SNY show called Mets Insider. On the former, he usually keeps it light for half an inning with Josh Lewin or Wayne Randazzo, sprinkling in a few obvious observations as asked until a third out is mercifully recorded and he can go back to his seat in the press box. On the latter, he projects an air of seriousness while explaining how this or that aspect of the episode's given subject works. Until now, he has apparently kept the most inside of his inside information to himself. It would have been interesting had he led one of his sponsored reports with, "Well, Wayne-o, Terry Collins is incredibly unpopular with significant segments of the Mets hierarchy and there are serious rifts within the clubhouse regarding his approach and effectiveness."

Perhaps Carig didn't fully cultivate his insiderdom until just this week.

Presumably, the stuff he reported has been building for a while and he/his editors understand there is a timeliness factor to making it public; six months from now, a story about former Mets manager Terry Collins not being the leader of men he was made out to be (by Carig among others) is intriguing, but not topical. So the sense that this is a big screen door hitting Collins in the ass is unfortunate, but that's not Newsday's problem. All the anonymity is also unfortunate, but then you don't have the dishiness that makes it so delectable.

If Carig puts it out there last year or earlier this year -- his story indicates it's not a new situation, but one that has deepened and deepened some more -- then doing his primary job (never mind the Insider gig) becomes challenging. I've gotten the sense that he doesn't particularly enjoy the beat he's been on for five-plus seasons and wonder if this serves as his parting shot. It's not necessary that he steers clear of the Mets after this -- Rubin dug up dirt and kept at it year after year (somebody always wants to talk to somebody who makes himself available to listen) -- but the sudden decision to tell it like it is would seem to run up against his de facto ballclub-endorsed "Insider" role, which comes off as fairly incestuous to begin with.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 29 2017 11:38 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

You're right the "nooz" inning is jammed with potential conflicts. I happened to be listening on Wednesday and being surprised it wasn't Carig in the chair but David Lennon (I think), and thinking he must be going away because he wouldn't take a break this late in the year. I suppose MC was in the HVAC room at the time.

Carig became the Belinda Carlisle of the Beat this year, most likely to go have a solo career (or take a beat on his beloved West Coast). I liked his tone with fans.

The shocking and desperately sad thing to me about this was that Fred is still interfering and still has influence! Everybody likes to hate Jeff for the silver spoon and breakfast cereal and everything, but it's *always* been Fred behind the bad decisions, the calculated press appearances that blow up in their faces, the "not a superstar" quotes, the terrible investments, the Ebbbets Field Jones, the Selig water-carrying. And not because he's evil, but because he's just an idiot.


I'm constantly let down by this org. I guess I thought Fred was retired. I figured Terry wasn;t let go simply because there was little to gain by firing him during the season.

bmfc1
Sep 29 2017 11:52 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

The Post has it's own version. No matter why, I just wish it didn't happen. I wasn't (past tense) a big Terry fan and I'm glad his tenure is over but let the guy leave in peace with his head held high and his reputation restored. Set aside a Terry appreciation day (perhaps give out a really small bobblehead) and induct him into the Mets Hall of Fame. He got them into the WS and there was last year's playoff run so he did something right despite the bunting and overuse of the bullpen

metirish
Sep 29 2017 01:14 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

The Mets know how to do end of season turmoil , will Terry be allowed to retire gracefully or will he get Mets bashed on the way out?

Ceetar
Sep 29 2017 01:39 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

I suspect most owners that spend billions of dollars voice their opinions. The situation in St. Louis is almost identical for instance.

Yes, it's nice to have one guy calling all the shots, but even if you have someone with absolute power they still delegate, they still ask for opinions. Why wouldn't the owner have one? If you're on the fence about firing someone, and the owner makes a good case to keep him, is it really bad if you listen temporarily?


Another inconsistency is citing Collins' preference for veterans like it was his decision not to promote Rosario earlier. We can play the guessing game here. Which young(er)? player has an over-inflated opinion of himself and thinks he deserved more playing time? Flores? He's the only one that's been there all year. Unless it was a "hey, promote me!" from Plawecki or Reynolds or something, but again, not on Terry. And neither is not playing Flores more who's very average.

Frayed Knot
Sep 29 2017 01:41 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

bmfc1 wrote:
The Post has it's own version.


It does although, as I mentioned above, it seems to have been ripped directly from the Newsday piece without acknowledging so - at least in the version they had up last night right after the
Newsday piece broke. The Daily News had one too but they were at least honest enough to credit Newsday as the source.




You're right the "nooz" inning is jammed with potential conflicts.


Those things are always a potential problem.
The Daily News -- between doing those in-game chats for years on the Yanqui broadcasts, coupled with the on-air commercials Torre used to do for them, coupled with Madden sitting in George's box
one day and writing a pro-George piece the next that -- always made you question whether they were able to be a fair voice on all things MFY or were closer to a pr firm disguised as a newspaper.
The Mets ran into this during the Torborg era when at one point Jeff was disputing the facts of something Newsday had run but was also at the time doing regular commercials for them. This put him in
an awkward situation one day where he was essentially calling the paper that paid him a liar but of course didn't want to say so in so many words.

cooby
Sep 29 2017 01:48 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Frayed Knot wrote:
THOUGHTS ON THE THREAD!!!



3) Not sure how to react to the notion that the young players felt he was favoring the veterans.
Who was he supposed to play through to the trade deadline? Plus it's not exactly like the was a dugout full of rooks spraying balls all over the park who were forced to sit while some past his
prime vet was taking his ABs.





Kinda what I was thinking. Was there a young stud there that he was stiffing? The mediocrity seemed to cover all age groups.

bmfc1
Sep 29 2017 02:26 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

You can argue that he should have been playing Cecchini more and certainly over Reyes (not that Cecchini was a "stud" or even that great).

I don't know if Sherman and Puma just used Carig's as a source and that was it as it's possible that the leakers gave their stories to both.

d'Kong76
Sep 29 2017 03:08 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Frayed Knot wrote:
2) "Discord" between him and the players -- I hear this in James Cagney's voice from 'Mister Roberts' as "Disharmony aboard this ship!!" -- is a new one on me.
Maybe it's true, but hearing about it for the first time with three days left in a seven year run?!?! And more discord this year during a losing season? Wow, whoda thunk that!!

Not big on answering with 'this'... but this!

Edgy MD
Sep 29 2017 03:16 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

I think perhaps a big part of the reason that this is breaking a week for the end of Terry's tenure is that a lot of the sources are realizing that their tenures are likely coming to an end also, so there's little motivation to play good soldier.

I also wonder if Wally Backman is a source also. Don't tell me he doesn't have a dog in this fight. Or doesn't see conspiracies around every corner. Or doesn't like to drink with reporters.

Ashie62
Sep 29 2017 03:21 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Maybe Terry is coming back and Sandy is leaving.

Lefty Specialist
Sep 29 2017 03:24 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

It's inevitable that you're going to get stories like this as the season's winding down, and Terry's been a dead man walking for a couple of months now.

It's traditional for the Mets to throw people under the bus and run them over a few times. For all his faults, Terry always seemed a straight-up guy, but it's time to move on. I just hope they don't make it any more painful than it needs to be.

batmagadanleadoff
Sep 29 2017 03:29 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Other than Casey, it ended bad for every Mets manager that ever was. I'd bet it woulda happened to Gil, too, if he didn't die before the end of his tenure.

41Forever
Sep 29 2017 03:58 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

If journalists allow people to speak without using their name, they will find someone, somewhere to say what they are looking for. It seems to me that if you are going to damage someone's reputation, as this story does, you need to have someone stand up and be on the record. Without that, take everything with a grain of salt. There is very little accountability in sports journalism sometimes. A "team official" could be anyone.

cooby
Sep 29 2017 04:04 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Other than Casey, it ended bad for every Mets manager that ever was. I'd bet it woulda happened to Gil, too, if he didn't die before the end of his tenure.

Ew that's the worst way to end a career

41Forever
Sep 29 2017 04:17 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

cooby wrote:
batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Other than Casey, it ended bad for every Mets manager that ever was. I'd bet it woulda happened to Gil, too, if he didn't die before the end of his tenure.

Ew that's the worst way to end a career



I'd have to argue that very few managers retire and ride off on their own. It usually ends after a string of losing seasons. Walt Alston, Tommy Lasorda, maybe Tony LaRussa. Perhaps Sparky Anderson, through he had sort of a rough departure, too. Torre was fired three times before his long MFY tenure, and think that was a little uncomfortable near the end, too.

d'Kong76
Sep 29 2017 04:24 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

41Forever wrote:
Torre was fired three times before his long MFY tenure, and think that was a little uncomfortable near the end, too.

I don't really recall Torre's departure... he'd already been canonized into NYC sainthood
and it's tough to be too rough on a saint. All bow.

Frayed Knot
Sep 29 2017 04:30 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Even though he wasn't officially fired, Mother Torresa was decidedly NOT treated well on his way out of the Bronx.
They basically told him that it was his fault that the team had slipped since their run of championships and either he accepts a pay cut and increased oversight (read: second guessing) from the brass
our he could shut the door on the way out. He took the door.

bmfc1
Sep 29 2017 04:37 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

41Forever wrote:
A "team official" could be anyone.

I'm ruling out Mr. Met because he doesn't talk.

batmagadanleadoff
Sep 29 2017 04:40 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Mr. Met can talk with his fingers.

Frayed Knot
Sep 29 2017 04:42 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

But with only four fingers on each hand he has a more limited vocabulary.

batmagadanleadoff
Sep 29 2017 04:44 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

He only needs his middle finger and he's got two of those on each hand what with Mr. Met having an even number of fingers on each hand.

d'Kong76
Sep 29 2017 04:49 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

I miss HVAC Guy at Shea... he knew shit and shared.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 29 2017 05:35 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Carig says Alderson, Jeff and Fred all refused to comment so that leaves:

Senior Vice President, Baseball Operations & Assistant General Manager: John Ricco
Special Assistant to the General Manager: JP Ricciardi
Director, Baseball Research & Development: TJ Barra
Director, Player Relations & Community Engagement: Donovan Mitchell
Director, Team Travel: Brian Small
Manager, Baseball Administration: June Napoli
Manager, Video Operations: Joe Scarola
Senior Coordinator, Baseball Systems: Joe Lefkowitz
Coordinator, Video Operations: Sean Haggans
Coordinator, Advance Scouting & Video Replay: Jim Kelly
Coordinator, Baseball Operations: Jeff Lebow
Analyst, Baseball Research & Development: Chris Pang
Administrative Assistant, Baseball Operations: Janine Laboy-Gonzalez

Now, Chris Pang can dish with the best of them but I'll bet the leakers names begin with the same 4 letters.

Edgy MD
Sep 29 2017 10:14 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Other than Casey, it ended bad for every Mets manager that ever was. I'd bet it woulda happened to Gil, too, if he didn't die before the end of his tenure.

I'd say breaking your hip in a bar isn't exactly ending good either.

41Forever wrote:
If journalists allow people to speak without using their name, they will find someone, somewhere to say what they are looking for. It seems to me that if you are going to damage someone's reputation, as this story does, you need to have someone stand up and be on the record.

Well, the other option is independent corroboration.

Obviously, there are stories that are true but would never get published if the sources had to be named (Watergate!). Un-named sources have a long and important history in journalism, and there are both irresponsible and responsible ways to use them.

41Forever
Sep 30 2017 01:33 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Edgy MD wrote:
batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Other than Casey, it ended bad for every Mets manager that ever was. I'd bet it woulda happened to Gil, too, if he didn't die before the end of his tenure.

I'd say breaking your hip in a bar isn't exactly ending good either.

41Forever wrote:
If journalists allow people to speak without using their name, they will find someone, somewhere to say what they are looking for. It seems to me that if you are going to damage someone's reputation, as this story does, you need to have someone stand up and be on the record.

Well, the other option is independent corroboration.

Obviously, there are stories that are true but would never get published if the sources had to be named (Watergate!). Un-named sources have a long and important history in journalism, and there are both irresponsible and responsible ways to use them.


Correct. Unnamed sources should be used as an absolute last resort, and sparingly. I can probably count the number of times I used them on one hand. But they are used waaaaaaaay to often in sports stories, it seems, which makes it far too easy to take shots at people.

Frayed Knot
Sep 30 2017 11:39 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

More from the player perspective than from a journalistic one, Dabid sez to stop with the anonymous Terry bashing.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 30 2017 01:04 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

I feel like David Wright once again is falling back on providing a journalist with the answer he thinks he wants them to hear.

The anon player quotes really don;t rip Collins but sort of back up the front office assertions that Terry was hard to talk to. It's not like the players called Carig to complain.


“He has always been difficult to communicate with,” one Met said. “It would be a surprise if he said ‘hey’ to you when you passed each other in the hallway if your name wasn’t [Matt] Harvey or [Yoenis] Cespedes. It’s always been those couple things along with some of the in-game decisions he makes.”


The other player said:

“He did what he could with what he had, but I believe that it turned out that the inmates ran the asylum a bit,” the player said. “He had three or four personalities in there that he essentially had no control over for a multitude of reasons, ranging from the front office allowing it, to guys just not respecting authority at all.”


That's not a rip on Terry at all, but his teammates if anything but again seems to more be a clarification of things that a list of greivances.

Edgy MD
Sep 30 2017 02:49 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

It's funny, because earlier in his tenure, the regular story on Terry was how focused on communication he was, frequently stopping by a guy's locker to make sure the lines were open, specifically catering to the guy going through rough spots, and being overtly conscious in choosing this behavior, because failing to communicate is what allegedly doomed him at previous spots.

I wouldn't be shocked if, in a spiraling season, with high turnover, high frustration, and an aging mind and body, maintaining all those lines of communication, and control of the clubhouse narrative, became more than he could bear. I also wouldn't be surprised if one of those personalities he had no control over was Céspedes, and another was Harvey. Guys making their own rules may be mostly harmless, but then order breaks down in the fringes, because the guys you rarely have contact with take their cues from the 500-pound gorillas. It's why football coaches are such martinets. They have 60 or so guys in that clubhouse that they can't personally police.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Sep 30 2017 03:58 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Yes. And not 4 nothing but the field of "one Mets" who would use the word "multitude" in a sentence isn't that big, unless Carig reached out to departed guys like Walker, Bruce or Reed.

I wanna say it's Blevins but I think Terry likes him too much not to say hello to him in the runway.

It's Tommy Milone!

G-Fafif
Sep 30 2017 04:42 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Yes. And not 4 nothing but the field of "one Mets" who would use the word "multitude" in a sentence isn't that big, unless Carig reached out to departed guys like Walker, Bruce or Reed.

I wanna say it's Blevins but I think Terry likes him too much not to say hello to him in the runway.

It's Tommy Milone!


Milone again, naturally.

Edgy MD
Sep 30 2017 06:15 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Come on. You spot Tommy Milone in a runway, tell me you know who it is?



Terry to self: "Hey,who's that guy? Nelson Figueroa? Ed Leyro? Wait a minute ... he's got a full kit on. Maybe he's my starting pitcher today. Better just nod and keep walking like you're in charge."

Ashie62
Sep 30 2017 07:59 PM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Test Fred for dementia.

Frayed Knot
Oct 01 2017 12:30 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

Sandy: 'Were I to find out who that person [the front office leaker] is, that person would be terminated immediately'

MFS62
Oct 01 2017 01:35 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
Yes. And not 4 nothing but the field of "one Mets" who would use the word "multitude" in a sentence isn't that big, unless Carig reached out to departed guys like Walker, Bruce or Reed.

If he reached out for that quote, my money would be on Granderson using that word.

Later

Edgy MD
Oct 01 2017 02:28 AM
Re: Fred! Still at it.

You want insinuations? I'll give you insinuations.

Note that Newsday gets that story out while the Mets are playing — and Marc Carig has access to — R.A. Dickey's team.

There's a guy with a vocab'lary.