Master Index of Archived Threads


#Takeaknee

Centerfield Sep 25 2017 07:55 PM

Figure it could use it's own thread. It will be interesting to see how the Cowboys react. Their owner has been the most outspoken about being against it. Couldn't help but notice the Nascar owners reaction, and Dale Earnhardt Jr's reaction to their reaction. And as far as I can tell, the President has never addressed police brutality. You know, the real subject of the protest.

d'Kong76 Sep 25 2017 08:18 PM Re: #Takeaknee

He's such a fucking asshole, it's affecting my mental health at times.

Edgy MD Sep 25 2017 08:49 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Centerfield wrote: And as far as I can tell, the President has never addressed police brutality. You know, the real subject of the protest. He has. He wants more of it. [youtube]kTcHRWS06-c[/youtube] He took a moment in there also to revive an old anti-Irish slur that had fallen into disuse. God help that officer who takes a moment and asks him or herself, "What the hell are we clapping for?"

Fman99 Sep 26 2017 12:31 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Somehow, them not being on the field bothers me, whereas the kneeling does not. Maybe I'm funny that way. I think it's more disrespectful to not participate in it, even in a fashion where you express yourself while still being visible.

Nymr83 Sep 26 2017 12:51 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Centerfield wrote: Couldn't help but notice the Nascar owners reaction, and Dale Earnhardt Jr's reaction to their reaction. If NFL fans were the only ones allowed to vote, Trump probably wins by a small majority. My impression of NASCAR and its fans is that if they were the only ones allowed to vote, there wouldn't be an election because the electorate would demand that their Emperor Orange abolish them. I've never been to a NASCAR event, so if i'm wrong you can blame the media for my opinion of them.

Ashie62 Sep 26 2017 01:44 AM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: He's such a fucking asshole, it's affecting my mental health at times. This more than anything. I might also kneel at my workstation.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 26 2017 12:59 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Fman99 wrote: Somehow, them not being on the field bothers me, whereas the kneeling does not. Maybe I'm funny that way. I think it's more disrespectful to not participate in it, even in a fashion where you express yourself while still being visible. Never used to participate in it at all, until 2009 or so; prior to that, they spent the anthem in the locker room area or tunnel. Then they started taking sponsorship money from the armed forces. BOOM! Jingo!

Frayed Knot Sep 26 2017 01:19 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I find myself extraordinarily uninterested in this topic. What started as a one-man stand against localized instances of police violence then morphed into a soap opera of who is and who isn't even though the numbers of 'protesters' never went above a handful of players or seemed to have any unifying theme. The original protester then announced he was done protesting (was his goal met? I dunno, wasn't really sure what it was to start with) but can't get a job anyway which is either because he was protesting before he announced that he wasn't or that he sucks depending on ones view of the fact that he was protesting in the first place. That the protesters against the protesters took it as an anti-military stance was the result of the whole military nature of the anthem in the first place which was, as LWFS notes, never anything more than a bought and paid for commercial enterprise to begin with. Now that President Stupid decides, basically as the issue was dead, to get involved in order to burnish his faux tough guy act, half the league jumps in causing football-turned-social commentators to analyze who's more authentic among the kneelers, the sitters, the fist-raisers, the arm-lockers, or the locker room stayers. Late last night I heard Jerry Jones's decision to kneel with his players described as "game-changing" as if Jones knowing in advance where the cameras were going to be aimed was any more of a surprise than the cameras knowing the location of Jones's luxury box seat.

Ceetar Sep 26 2017 03:17 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Kapernick's goal was a million dollar pledge to support underprivileged people. He's donated most of it himself, definitely putting his money where his mouth/knee is. I'm definitely less interested now that it's become an ESPN spectacle where very little of the conversation even resolves around the very real problem of police murdering black people.

Edgy MD Sep 26 2017 03:18 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Frayed Knot wrote: I find myself extraordinarily uninterested in this topic. What started as a one-man stand against localized instances of police violence then morphed into a soap opera of who is and who isn't even though the numbers of 'protesters' never went above a handful of players or seemed to have any unifying theme. The original protester then announced he was done protesting (was his goal met? I dunno, wasn't really sure what it was to start with) but can't get a job anyway which is either because he was protesting before he announced that he wasn't or that he sucks depending on ones view of the fact that he was protesting in the first place. That the protesters against the protesters took it as an anti-military stance was the result of the whole military nature of the anthem in the first place which was, as LWFS notes, never anything more than a bought and paid for commercial enterprise to begin with. Now that President Stupid decides, basically as the issue was dead, to get involved in order to burnish his faux tough guy act, half the league jumps in causing football-turned-social commentators to analyze who's more authentic among the kneelers, the sitters, the fist-raisers, the arm-lockers, or the locker room stayers. Late last night I heard Jerry Jones's decision to kneel with his players described as "game-changing" as if Jones knowing in advance where the cameras were going to be aimed was any more of a surprise than the cameras knowing the location of Jones's luxury box seat. That's a lot of uninterested. The NFL is a massive industry where black warriors are ground up for white $$. If it has any purpose, it's exactly where I want to see the president defied, denounced, and resisted. Any and all MLBers are welcome to join suit, from my perspective. I'm not particularly interested in the hot takes of studio analysts, but I am interested in seeing anyone and everyone defy the president's bullying. I also celebrate the solidarity otherwise-fence-sitters have shown with Kaepernick, and I'd love to see a walkout over the guy. I also would celebrate in solidarity if any and all MLB and MiLB foreign-born ballplayers participated in A Day Without Immigrants, but unfortunately it's been observed, so far, in the off-season.

d'Kong76 Sep 26 2017 03:36 PM Re: #Takeaknee

The average NFL salary in 2015 (according to googling a Forbes article) was $2.1 million. If someone wants to 'grind me up' and fly me around the country for 4-5 months please send me a PM!!

Edgy MD Sep 26 2017 04:07 PM Re: #Takeaknee

And yet, most of them die broke. Divorced, bankrupt, mentally ill, or some combination of the three. And of course, most of the truly screwed are the majority that never really taste the money in the first place. And the contracts still aren't fully guaranteed.

d'Kong76 Sep 26 2017 04:16 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I'm not going to go around this wheel with you. Most of the players in the NFL got free educations and at least one or two big paychecks. If they wind up divorced and bankrupt can't really see blaming on their previous employer.

Edgy MD Sep 26 2017 04:37 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Sounds like you're going around the wheel. I imagine that very few NCAA Division I football players get anything like an education. It's a machine.

d'Kong76 Sep 26 2017 04:41 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: Sounds like you're going around the wheel. Thanks

Ceetar Sep 26 2017 05:39 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: I'm not going to go around this wheel with you. Most of the players in the NFL got free educations and at least one or two big paychecks. If they wind up divorced and bankrupt can't really see blaming on their previous employer. lol free education.

d'Kong76 Sep 26 2017 05:44 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I get it.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 26 2017 05:50 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: The average NFL salary in 2015 (according to googling a Forbes article) was $2.1 million. If someone wants to 'grind me up' and fly me around the country for 4-5 months please send me a PM!! They're also working, on average, for a little over three years total, and accruing health problems that will last a drastically-abbreviated lifetime, but that will frequently not be entirely covered by their NFLPA benefit. Unlike as in MLB contracts, those salaries are not guaranteed. Even assuming they got that "free education," it's pretty hard to employ the same in any sort of gainful post-playing career with a brain ravaged by CTE.

d'Kong76 Sep 26 2017 05:58 PM Re: #Takeaknee

This is why I didn't want to get into the hamster wheel over this. The man putting the darkies into the meat grinder slant above got me going. A young man with even a million dollars in the bank and a degree from Notre Dame (even in basket weaving) doesn't lead to divorce and bankruptcy without some help from the individual. It was totally mis-framed and has nothing to do with #takeaknee.

Edgy MD Sep 26 2017 06:10 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Well, you say you don't want to continue, and I respect that, but then you throw another card down. I stand by what I wrote and why I wrote it. It's a deeply exploitative industry and that's exactly where I celebrate the rise of a movement of defiance.

d'Kong76 Sep 26 2017 06:18 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I said that before it was three on one.

Fman99 Sep 26 2017 07:55 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: I said that before it was three on one. Finally something we can all agree is great.

Centerfield Sep 26 2017 08:15 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: And as far as I can tell, the President has never addressed police brutality. You know, the real subject of the protest. He has. He wants more of it. [youtube]kTcHRWS06-c[/youtube] He took a moment in there also to revive an old anti-Irish slur that had fallen into disuse. God help that officer who takes a moment and asks him or herself, "What the hell are we clapping for?" You know what? I completely forgot about that. Anyone else saying something that outrageous it would be a black mark on them. For Trump, it just falls into the abyss.

Edgy MD Sep 26 2017 08:32 PM Re: #Takeaknee

The amount of Trumpian assholery I've forgotten could fill a book. We kinda need to remind each other. [list:z0gka97w]>>> "Has Trump insulted handicapped kids?" >>> >>> "I don't know, but come on. Probably. Bill's keeping taps on that." >>> "No, I think Bill's tracking presidential abuse of female athletes and gay enlisted personnel." >>> >>> "That's like a full-time job. Poor Bill." >>> "Yeah. I think Chester does the handicapped kids. Here it is. Developmentally disabled kids and preservation activists. Chester." >>> >>> "That's probably an easier portfolio." >>> "I think he does Jews, too." >>> >>> "Christ ... ."[/list:u:z0gka97w]

Centerfield Sep 26 2017 08:37 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Back to the topic at hand, thoughts in my head that I am trying to work out. *Every American has the right to peacefully protest. The President dictating what can and can't be done? How does anyone disagree on this. *But at the same time, no one has any right to protest on the job. When they are in uniform, their employer has every right to tell them how to behave. *But should the NFL owners say or do anything? Innocent people are dying at the hands of law enforcement, and it's pervasive enough that it's not just coincidence. The majority of their employees (players) are in the persecuted group. Morally, shouldn't they be supporting these protests instead of blackballing the guy who started them? *But specifically protesting during the National Anthem. It has such deep meaning to the military and their families who have sacrificed so much for this county. If the selected means of protest inadvertently cause distress to this courageous group of people, maybe this is not the way to do it. Personally, I would feel uncomfortable kneeling during the anthem. *But maybe that's what you need to get the point across. Even with that no one seems to be taking this issue seriously. Who am I to tell anyone how to protest? What if my family member had been killed at the hands of a bad cop? *But whatever you may feel about this issue, the way Trump handled it was the worst thing. It's awful. It's divisive, it's racially charged. It is specifically meant to create chaos, and most disgusting, it's done for self-gain. *So how do you react? You have to stand up (or in this case, kneel) in the face of bigotry. But to do so, you do it at the expense of the military, who can't help but feel how they feel. It sucks. You don't want to kneel, but you feel like you have to because of the orange-skinned dickhead. *And now what? Suddenly you realize how many people are on Trump's side. All the boo-ing. People online calling them thugs, ingrates. People act like white athletes should be celebrated for their hard work and determination, while black athletes should be grateful of the opportunity they are given. Are they all bad people? This is just garbage. I can't believe this is my country. It's hardly recognizable. No easy answers.

Ceetar Sep 26 2017 09:06 PM Re: #Takeaknee

well there's a hypocritical side to it too. A lot of those that don't see any nuance and claim you have to respect the flag (in this particular way at this particular time) because they've attached a military casualty meaning to it are a lot of the same people that criticize things like PC language and think it's bs that someone else might attach a greater meaning to words and phrases that they do. A lot of these people talk about things like "just work hard and you'll come out on top." and "take advantage of your opportunities" which, you know, is kinda what Kapernick, et al are doing. It's an opportunity to bring a serious issue to light and they're taking it. It boils down to not telling other people how they're supposed to behave and learning that there are different people with different concerns and trying to understand and have some ounce of compassion for someone that has a different experience than you.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 26 2017 09:11 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Centerfield wrote: People act like white athletes should be celebrated for their hard work and determination, while black athletes should be grateful of the opportunity they are given. That's a good sentence.

Vic Sage Sep 26 2017 09:25 PM Re: #Takeaknee

If a protest isn't upsetting people, it's not a protest. And people can choose to take offense to whatever they take offense tom but the notion that people are more offended by black men kneeling during the anthem than they are in seeing black men kneeling in handcuffs and then murdered by a racist police state, is a hypocrisy i have no interest in being ambivalent about.

dgwphotography Sep 26 2017 09:39 PM Re: #Takeaknee

It's all part of a larger shell game. "Here look at this, so you won't pay attention to what's really important" We've all been played for a while now. This is just the latest in a seemingly unending series of distractions to keep us divided, and fighting among ourselves.

Nymr83 Sep 27 2017 01:00 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Centerfield wrote: People act like white athletes should be celebrated for their hard work and determination, while black athletes should be grateful of the opportunity they are given. That's a good sentence. Athletes of all colors should be immensely grateful for the opportunity to play a game and get paid doing it.

Lefty Specialist Sep 27 2017 01:08 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Absolutely. Doesn't mean they give up their right to free speech and peaceful protest.

MFS62 Sep 27 2017 01:38 AM Re: #Takeaknee

(Channeling Fmann) The last time Trump was on his knees, he was reaching for Putin's zipper. Later

Nymr83 Sep 27 2017 02:46 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist wrote: Absolutely. Doesn't mean they give up their right to free speech and peaceful protest. an employee of any business gives up the right to act against the best interests of the employer - certainly while on the job/in uniform. expectations while outside the job are certainly more debateable and (in my opinion) dependent on the public nature of the job. if the employers dont have an issue with it, then they can of course do what they want. I didn't like what Kap (and others) did - i was against their actions, not against their right to those actions. of course then the dumby-in-chief got involved and (like everything he sticks his nose into) everything got crazier and more complicated. i DO support the players sending a message to Trump that its none of his fucking business and he ought to shut his mouth and leave it to their employers, if their employers care at all.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 27 2017 02:51 AM Re: #Takeaknee

I find myself extraordinarily uninterested in this topic. This is where I'm kind of at. It just boggles my mind that people would work themselves into frenzies giving a shit about how other people express themselves, as if it's any of their goddamn business in the first place. Personally, I loath the playing of the Star Spangled Banner at sporting events and even more so, the nosy-bodies who take it upon themselves to tell strangers to stand and what to do with their hats. And the military, god bless them for the enormous sacrifices they make, but who always get this issue wrong. It's none of their business and the flag represents way more than the military. The military doesn't own that flag though it acts as if it does. The flag represents America and the Constitution, maybe the greatest document ever, and what makes America the greatest country in the world, not some piece of cloth -- the Constitution. If that flag could speak, it would say: "Burn me. Burn me to shreds and ashes. Burn me to the ground.. Because I can take it and because it's your Constitutional right to burn me till nothing's left of me". That's why America's great and that's what the military fights for: So that we can burn down the flag, spit on it, soil it and destroy it. And if it's constitutional to burn down an American flag, then that means that that's what the founders wanted.

Edgy MD Sep 27 2017 04:55 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Nymr83 wrote: an employee of any business gives up the right to act against the best interests of the employer What constitutes that is a judgment call, and it's a matter of policy, contracts, and collective bargaining. The NFL is still a unionized game.

Lefty Specialist Sep 27 2017 01:20 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: Nymr83 wrote: an employee of any business gives up the right to act against the best interests of the employer What constitutes that is a judgment call, and it's a matter of policy, contracts, and collective bargaining. The NFL is still a unionized game. And the thing of it is that on Sunday the employer supported, and in some instances participated in, the protest. But even Colin Kaepernick by his lonesome wasn't acting against the best interests of his employer.

Centerfield Sep 27 2017 01:24 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I know the term "must read" is overused, but if anyone is going to take a stance on this issue, that person must read the origin of "take a knee" first: http://www.espn.com/blog/san-francisco- ... ect-change

Ceetar Sep 27 2017 01:37 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Nymr83 wrote: an employee of any business gives up the right to act against the best interests of the employer - certainly while on the job/in uniform. Nope. If I work for Apple, It is not grounds for firing for me to buy a Samsung phone for instance. If I work for the Mets it's not grounds for me to be fired for buying a Pepsi, even though Coke is a Mets sponsor. That's probably the closest analog, as the requested/forced attendance at the anthem is a sponsorship deal with the military. Of course, it falls apart since A. they're (mostly, until this weekend) attending. B. They're not disrespecting the military, or the flag. C. Given the makeup of the NFL I think the police murdering black people might actually be AGAINST the NFL's interests making protesting it very supportive of the sport. The only 'grounds' for complain here is the creating a nuisance one, the being a distraction. But it's a hard sell as they're entertainers and attention and focus on them is pretty much what their job is. It's not to win, it's to get attention. it's to sell jerseys, and tickets, and ads. They already tried to the blackballing method and it's spiraled out of control though.

Frayed Knot Sep 27 2017 01:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

One thing I am finding interesting here is that this has apparently sent a bunch of football fans into boycott mode. It stuns me that a fan -- particularly in football where the typical fan's attitude is 'if there's a game on TV I'm watching it' regardless of specific team/league -- gets themselves into such a twist over this that they'll abandon the sport entirely but DirecTV (ATT) has now started offering refunds to those who want to back out the NFL 'Season Ticket' package even though it's a pre-paid/entire season buy. Plus 'Season Ticket' is a DirecTV exclusive and as such is a major part of their business, iow: many of those canceling 'Season Ticket' are going to use that as an excuse to back out of DirecTV entirely if they have options available [cable, FioS, Dish, cord-cutting, etc] I suspect some of these folks will get their football fix via college football instead of the pros where they can take solace in the fact that the players there are totally controllable and without anything resembling rights of expression. This is probably particularly true in those parts of the country where college loyalties go back further than any pro team and where many folks consider the college game to be superior to the pro game in the first place.

Ceetar Sep 27 2017 01:50 PM Re: #Takeaknee

[url]http://www.cbs.com/shows/the-late-show-with-stephen-colbert/video/JaavJfdLFzN19mvcNWFm1wb4cfubIoFl/the-late-show-9-26-2017-sofia-vergara-david-boreanaz-ken-burns-/ These web players are a pain to navigate, but if you go to 9:08 of the show there's an amusing take on "DT45's Grill where they show all the games, but just the anthems, and then turn them off"

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 27 2017 03:04 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I tell ya what: If I'm baseball I look at the absolute trainwreck that is the NFL disarray as a golden opportunity to do some back-channel promotion of baseball as an alternative route to riches and stardom as an athlete. I have a facebook buddy who posted pictures of the removal of his NY Giants logo sticker from the back window of his truck. He's a NYC fireman and can't help but interpret the whole thing as an attack on his profession, and every other fb "protester" also can't divorce it from military/cop worship that's become a thing since 9/11. I feel like I can't argue with these guys. I'm for improving the quality and respect for police officers work by paying them more and training them better and supporting military families by having fewer of them killed. Neither of those of things will happen under the corroded culture today where you can't even raise those issues without it looking as though you're rogering a sacred cow.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 27 2017 04:03 PM Re: #Takeaknee

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I have a facebook buddy who posted pictures of the removal of his NY Giants logo sticker from the back window of his truck. He's a NYC fireman and can't help but interpret the whole thing as an attack on his profession, and every other fb "protester" also can't divorce it from military/cop worship that's become a thing since 9/11. I feel like I can't argue with these guys. From your posts, I know that you know this, but the flag belongs to Colin Kaepernick as much as it belongs to anyone else. It's not the fucking military's flag and I'm sick of hearing that dumb argument and if the military doesn't know that they're fighting for the Constitution and our constitutional right to debase the flag, then they need to do some more learning. John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm for improving the quality and respect for police officers work by paying them more and training them better.... Cops are grossly underpaid. Also, if they were paid more, the job would attract better candidates, too.

Ceetar Sep 27 2017 04:07 PM Re: #Takeaknee

batmagadanleadoff wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I'm for improving the quality and respect for police officers work by paying them more and training them better.... Cops are grossly underpaid. Also, if they were paid more, the job would attract better candidates, too. Then maybe they can stop taxing us by setting speed/stop sign traps where they purposely don't fix hard to see stop signs so they can use them to raise revenue. A lot of that's going to go away with self-driving cars and automation so we really should get ahead of it.

Nymr83 Sep 28 2017 12:08 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: Nymr83 wrote: an employee of any business gives up the right to act against the best interests of the employer - certainly while on the job/in uniform. Nope. If I work for Apple, It is not grounds for firing for me to buy a Samsung phone for instance. If I work for the Mets it's not grounds for me to be fired for buying a Pepsi, even though Coke is a Mets sponsor. That's probably the closest analog, as the requested/forced attendance at the anthem is a sponsorship deal with the military. if you buy one at home? no if you are displaying it while on the job at the apple store? it would be reasonable for them to have a policy against that and fire you for violating it.

Edgy MD Sep 28 2017 12:18 AM Re: #Takeaknee

It's a unionized shop. There is no policy, and they'd have to negotiate to institute one at the bargaining table. I don't know why we should want to go through such mental gymnastics to demonize guys for doing next to nothing.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Sep 28 2017 03:40 AM Re: #Takeaknee

You've made your peace with dog fighting, hazing, sexual assault, murder, cover-up of sexual assault and murder, and systematic destruction of black bodies for our amusement. But you're upset over people kneeling-- not flipping birds, not taking obscene selfies, not eveb slipping earbuds in-- during the anthem? Veteran or not, kindly go screw. Because it ain't about morality with your bullshit stands... it's about what morality you're comfortable with displaying. And if you're going to pull the my-buddies-died-for-the-flag shit, well, then you don't have any real idea why you did what you did, and your service-- difficult and soul-shredding as it may have been-- was meaningless, anyway. Thank you for your meaningless service. Social workers and teachers and are just as patriotic as Marines or Army privates. They're just not as bloodthirsty or indoctrinated.

d'Kong76 Sep 28 2017 01:40 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I don't really buy the systematic destruction of bodies part but the rest is spot on! [bigpurple:2r3dwt82]Amen[/bigpurple:2r3dwt82]

MFS62 Sep 28 2017 02:06 PM Re: #Takeaknee Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 28 2017 02:07 PM

When I was sworn into the Army, I took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States and to protect the rights of ALL Americans. That includes the right to silently and peacefully protest injustice. And many of the servicemen (and women) with whom I served died defending those rights. Unfortunately, it also protects the rights of those assholes who feel otherwise and want to take some rights away. Please don't paint all veterans with that broad brush. Many vets understand this issue and feel as I do. Later

Benjamin Grimm Sep 28 2017 02:07 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Last night I was at Back to School Night at my daughter's high school. They started the program by having everybody stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. I thought it would be funny if I "took a knee" but decided not to.

Ceetar Sep 28 2017 02:15 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Last night I was at Back to School Night at my daughter's high school. They started the program by having everybody stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. I thought it would be funny if I "took a knee" but decided not to. I am already anticipating, 2 years out, that I'm going to be a pain of a parent to deal with.

Nymr83 Sep 28 2017 02:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Last night I was at Back to School Night at my daughter's high school. They started the program by having everybody stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. I thought it would be funny if I "took a knee" but decided not to. i had open school night too (my first one!) - good call on your part. while i'm sure some might have found it funny, others might not have, and it would have been a real dick move to tak attention away from the reason everyone is there - THE KIDS (which are more important than football*) *nobody tell the Mrs. I said that

Lefty Specialist Oct 09 2017 02:08 PM Re: #Takeaknee

So Mike Pence spends $200,000 of our tax money so that he can fly in Air Force Two to Indianapolis for a little charade where he pretends to so offended by players kneeling that he walks out of the Colts game. After telling reporters before he left that he won't be there for long. I mean, come on. Next time, take a motorcade to a Redskins game if you want to make a point. This Friday, Bill Maher had Billy Crystal on, and he described Mike Pence as looking like "The guy who chased the von Trapp family into the Alps."

Centerfield Oct 09 2017 02:17 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Meanwhile NFL owners, after showing "solidarity" are starting to direct their players not to take a knee. Jerry Jones heading the charge. Disgusting.

A Boy Named Seo Oct 09 2017 02:26 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Speaking of Jerry Jones, last week I hung out out w/ a friend I've been very close with for over 30 years, and he told me how he wrote an impassioned email to the Dallas Cowboys, letting them know he was boycotting their product due to their egregious and offensive disrespect to the flag. Apparently his email worked. After arguing (pointlessly but with civility) over some beers, my whole feel kinda changed to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and I told him, 'cool protest, bro' and we sadly haven't spoken since we parted ways that night. Donald Trump is even ruining friendships now.

Frayed Knot Oct 09 2017 02:51 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Jones: "Felons I have no problem with employing, but those damn kneelers ... !" OK that shouldn't be in quotes because he didn't specifically say those words, but his actions pretty much say exactly that.

d'Kong76 Oct 09 2017 03:37 PM Re: #Takeaknee

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Donald Trump is even ruining friendships now. Families too. Lefty Specialist wrote: Bill Maher had Billy Crystal on, and he described Mike Pence as looking like "The guy who chased the von Trapp family into the Alps." I think Billy has his plot facts mixed up. He aided the escape, he didn't chase them. And Billy making fun of someone's appearance is funny on it's own but peoples thoughts on looks varies.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 09 2017 05:29 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Once again, it's all about the military even though, for the umpteenth time, no knee-kneeler ever said they were protesting the military. And it's not the fucking military's flag either. That flag flies for everybody. And the military doesn't get to decide how everyone else chooses to address the flag. And then there's the constitution, under which we can legally burn the flag to ashes, or shit, piss or spit on the flag -- rights that the fucking military took an oath and swore to uphold and defend. What a stupid clusterfuck. It's the constitution, not the flag. If a law were passed eliminating the flag or changing its design, we'd go on business as usual notwithstanding the expected moronic uproar. But eliminate the constitution, and then we really descend into chaos and nihilism and danger. Without a constitution-like document, all hell breaks loose. Real hell. This is wishful thinking but if anything positive ever comes out of these protests, it would be to eliminate this moronic ritual where people have to stand, salute and pledge to the flag before every sporting event.

Edgy MD Oct 09 2017 05:40 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I'm hoping that if anything good comes of this protest, it would be a reduction in unjust deadly force used by police, particularly against people of color, and more accountability for those who use it.

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 06:03 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: I'm hoping that if anything good comes of this protest, it would be a reduction in unjust deadly force used by police, particularly against people of color, and more accountability for those who use it. *snicker* pie in the sky much?

Edgy MD Oct 09 2017 07:04 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Snicker at somebody else.

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 07:08 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I wasn't snickering at you. just snickering at the idea that the cops are gonna stop killing people for sport.

Edgy MD Oct 09 2017 07:11 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Oh, bullshit.

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 07:23 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: Oh, bullshit. no, truth.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 09 2017 07:34 PM Re: #Takeaknee

"Killing for sport"??? I don't believe that for a second. Some of them are being reckless, but they're not heading out in their patrol cars looking to kill people.

Lefty Specialist Oct 09 2017 07:35 PM Re: #Takeaknee

That that's what's been so cleverly done here. This was a protest about black people being killed by cops for no good reason and it's been turned into 'Why do they hate America, the flag, the troops and our first responders?' Jerry Jones says if anyone kneels, they don't play. I'd love to see the whole team kneel, but I bet nobody does next week.

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 07:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Benjamin Grimm wrote: "Killing for sport"??? I don't believe that for a second. Some of them are being reckless, but they're not heading out in their patrol cars looking to kill people. not in so many words, but they absolutely are. 1. They pull over and target more blacks than whites. 2. They frequently escalate a situation that it's their job to deescalate. They pull out weapons in non-hostile situations to assert their authority. 3. They've already taken their weapon out and have shown no qualms about using it. They're okay with killing to enforce the law as they see it. That's basically the same thing. They're not specifically saying "Let's go out and find someone to murder" but their regular routine frequently leads to the same thing.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 09 2017 07:45 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Yes, but that's what makes "killing for sport" a distortion instead of an accurate statement.

d'Kong76 Oct 09 2017 07:46 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Don't buy the killing for sport thing. Was taken aback by someone believing that. And not sure about the clever part, I think it just always degenerates into it...

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 07:51 PM Re: #Takeaknee

There's a literary device called hyperbole, maybe you've heard of it?

Benjamin Grimm Oct 09 2017 07:54 PM Re: #Takeaknee

No, please address me like I'm an idiot. You said "they absolutely are." That means you're not using hyperbole. Or do you need me to post the definition of "absolutely" for you?

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 08:14 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Yes let's argue over the degree of intentional malice the police have in their murder,s that's the salient point.

d'Kong76 Oct 09 2017 08:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Better yet, let's not paint the white police officer with such a wide brush by saying they hunt down non-white people for sport.

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 08:49 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: Better yet, let's not paint the white police officer with such a wide brush by saying they hunt down non-white people for sport. burden of proof is on them, not me. Feel like the other officers should be the first to act to rid themselves of people like this, instead they hide it in internal affairs, don't fire them, and charge the taxpayers large sums in settlements with families.

d'Kong76 Oct 09 2017 08:59 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Read - can't deal with the hatefull bitterness from your side right now. Have a pleasant enening.

Ceetar Oct 09 2017 09:04 PM Re: #Takeaknee

There's not a "side" i wish we could stop making everything so binary.

Nymr83 Oct 10 2017 12:05 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: d'Kong76 wrote: Better yet, let's not paint the white police officer with such a wide brush by saying they hunt down non-white people for sport. burden of proof is on them, not me. Feel like the other officers should be the first to act to rid themselves of people like this, instead they hide it in internal affairs, don't fire them, and charge the taxpayers large sums in settlements with families. the burden is on them to justify their own behavior. the burden is on you to backup an utterly ridiculous statement that you made.

Nymr83 Oct 10 2017 12:07 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: There's not a "side" i wish we could stop making everything so binary. it isnt binary, there are more than two sides. there are the reasonable folks who want explanations/accountability from police. then there are the assholes whose words demonstrate their irrational hatred of the police.

Frayed Knot Oct 10 2017 12:36 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: Feel like the other officers should be the first to act to rid themselves of people like this, instead they hide it in internal affairs, don't fire them, and charge the taxpayers large sums in settlements with families. This isn't remotely accurate. Many of these high-profile cases have resulted in firings, arrests, charges, and trials.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 02:48 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: Feel like the other officers should be the first to act to rid themselves of people like this, instead they hide it in internal affairs, don't fire them, and charge the taxpayers large sums in settlements with families. This isn't remotely accurate. Many of these high-profile cases have resulted in firings, arrests, charges, and trials. no they haven't. unless you have very liberal definition of liberal. and really there's little justification for less than 100%

Frayed Knot Oct 10 2017 02:55 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: no they haven't. Yes they have and really there's little justification for less than 100% Sure there is. Not every police shooting is a crime.

Lefty Specialist Oct 10 2017 12:33 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Talk to some black people about their interactions with the police. I know someone who lives in my town, has an expanded split level, one kid in high school and another in college, drives an Audi, works in finance in New York City and has been stopped by local cops 5 times in the past two years. He's not a bad driver and has never been given a ticket. That's in suburban New Jersey. He knows not to get huffy or sarcastic with the cop, but to take it and move on. That's a part of the black experience that happens every single day. And that's what's lost here. It's not only about the shootings. It's the fact that if I get stopped by a cop and go to pull my license out of my wallet in my back pocket, the cop waits for me. My friend has to explain that his license is in his back pocket and he's had to step out of his car on more than one occasion to remove it, because cops are assuming he's armed. It's that black people are not viewed the same way as white people by law enforcement. Things that white people don't give a second thought to can get a black person killed. How many of you have your license in your wallet in your back pocket or in your purse? How many of you have your registration in the glove compartment? Now imagine that the next time you're stopped for running a red light, people assume you have a gun in both those places. This is what drives the animus here. It's the shootings, but it's also a mindset on many (but not all) law enforcement, that blacks are guilty until proven innocent. And if you think that's ridiculous, ask some black people you know about it.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 10 2017 12:38 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I don't doubt at all that that's true.

Frayed Knot Oct 10 2017 01:24 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Yeah, I don't see where anyone here is disputing any of that. The current argument involving cases where there were shootings is over whether, depending on the individual circumstances, they were the result of bad policing, reckless violence, fog of war, justifiable action, or "hunting for sport", and also, in those cases where evidence pointed to there not being reasonable cause to fire, whether those committing the shootings were ever suspended, fired, arrested, charged, or prosecuted or all merely "hidden" within ranks.

Centerfield Oct 10 2017 01:37 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist wrote: Talk to some black people about their interactions with the police. I know someone who lives in my town, has an expanded split level, one kid in high school and another in college, drives an Audi, works in finance in New York City and has been stopped by local cops 5 times in the past two years. He's not a bad driver and has never been given a ticket. That's in suburban New Jersey. He knows not to get huffy or sarcastic with the cop, but to take it and move on. That's a part of the black experience that happens every single day. And that's what's lost here. It's not only about the shootings. It's the fact that if I get stopped by a cop and go to pull my license out of my wallet in my back pocket, the cop waits for me. My friend has to explain that his license is in his back pocket and he's had to step out of his car on more than one occasion to remove it, because cops are assuming he's armed. It's that black people are not viewed the same way as white people by law enforcement. Things that white people don't give a second thought to can get a black person killed. How many of you have your license in your wallet in your back pocket or in your purse? How many of you have your registration in the glove compartment? Now imagine that the next time you're stopped for running a red light, people assume you have a gun in both those places. This is what drives the animus here. It's the shootings, but it's also a mindset on many (but not all) law enforcement, that blacks are guilty until proven innocent. And if you think that's ridiculous, ask some black people you know about it. Exactly. And this overall perception is what can lead to the shootings/beatings etc. We need thoughtful, well articulated arguments like this. I just want to chime in here. Statements like "hunting for sport" are incredibly damaging. It's not just that it's a foolish statement, it's that it undermines very real problem. When one makes careless statements like this, it damages the credibility of those trying to address the actual issue.

Centerfield Oct 10 2017 01:40 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I mean, what it does is move the goalpost to a stupidly attainable level. All they have to do now, is demonstrate that they are not cold-blooded killers, and then they win the argument.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 01:42 PM Re: #Takeaknee

It is true, my gun-carrying neighbor who is a NYS court officer who has gone through the white cop/black dude thing when not in uniform will be the first to corroborate this. He has a sense of humor, calls it whitey bullshit. Not sure I could do that. This thread went off the rails with the shooting for sport thing imo. OE: posted only reading up to BG's post.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 01:48 PM Re: #Takeaknee

if you don't dispute that they target blacks, it's hard to argue that most of the cases that result in shootings even where force might have been justified, aren't the result of bad policing. The police are immediately escalating situations to danger levels. If you can't pull over a black man without pulling your gun when he reaches for his insurance and registration, not only shouldn't you be pulling him over, you shouldn't be a cop. there is no fog of war. this isn't war. the police are literally supposed to protect PEACE. Centerfield wrote: I just want to chime in here. Statements like "hunting for sport" are incredibly damaging. It's not just that it's a foolish statement, it's that it undermines very real problem. When one makes careless statements like this, it damages the credibility of those trying to address the actual issue. I disagree. First off, who and what is trying to address the issue? it seems to me that the issue still lays in the "awareness" stage, and big statements get attention, and nuanced "we should discuss this in a well thought out debate" never get traction. Most of the debate around the flag issue barely even mentions police violence. Even if they're not explicitly headed out to kill people, they are killing people. people they're supposed to protect. almost every death is wrong. Carrying a weapon should not be justification for a cop to kill you. There are zero instances where a person should be shot in the back, or unarmed people put in illegal choke holds. It makes them look like power hungry thugs. And then they go and do things like protest as funerals. public servants! I'm a normal white guy and I've had numerous negative experiences with cops, I can't imagine what black people must feel like. Like legitimately scared when they walk or drive by a cop. This is serious stuff, and a serious impediment to trying to have a comfortable and happy society. Move the goal posts? no one has even set up goal posts. And this is just one aspect of it. Cops are also abusing powers in drug enforcement, particularly on the roads, and then there's civil forfeiture, etc..

MFS62 Oct 10 2017 01:54 PM Re: #Takeaknee

But are the demonstrations a case of self inflicted myopia? It sets up an "us versus them" mentality that serves to drive the parties apart rather than providing an environment for meaningful dialogue. Can we have meaningful communication when one party only trusts certain letters of the alphabet? Of course not. But to say that only Black lives matter to the exclusion of all other lives is just as senseless. Yes, the protests should be made. And everyone should agree that it is the right of the protesters to protest, and respect that right. But folks is folks. And until both sides agree on that basic principle, nothing will happen to truly address the situation. Later

Lefty Specialist Oct 10 2017 02:16 PM Re: #Takeaknee

The kneelers, and those who support them, allowed this issue to be taken away from them by the guy in the White House. He made it an issue of disrespect for America. And as far as I can tell, he's won. 'Black Lives Matter' does not mean [u:372fvx6y]only[/u:372fvx6y] black lives matter. What it means is that too many people have treated blacks as if their lives DON'T matter. And that's what the 'all lives matter' people don't get; white lives [u:372fvx6y]already[/u:372fvx6y] matter in this society and always have.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 10 2017 02:20 PM Re: #Takeaknee

In retrospect, they should have called it "Black Lives Matter Too." Or "Black Lives Also Matter" (BLAM makes for a nice acronym.)

A Boy Named Seo Oct 10 2017 02:49 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: Even if they're not explicitly headed out to kill people, they are killing people. If you know they're not explicitly headed out to kill people, then don't say they are. America is currently getting run over by a piece of shit who believes that "big statements get attention" and it serves no one. More nuance, bro.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 03:02 PM Re: #Takeaknee

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Ceetar wrote: Even if they're not explicitly headed out to kill people, they are killing people. If you know they're not explicitly headed out to kill people, then don't say they are. America is currently getting run over by a piece of shit who believes that "big statements get attention" and it serves no one. More nuance, bro. would it make it better if I said they're headed out explicitly looking to hurt people and not caring if they get killed in the process? I'm not sure why we need nuance for people that are legitimately committing crimes that are worse than 90% of the people they've ever arrested. As Lefty said above, the idiot with his big statement seems to be winning, and not just on this issue. He's also come out in support of police violence. I disagree that it serves no one. I think people in general are tired of being shouted over. This is not a new issue. This has never NOT been an issue. stuttering out 'please stop killing us' isn't working. Make some damn noise.

A Boy Named Seo Oct 10 2017 03:17 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: Ceetar wrote: Even if they're not explicitly headed out to kill people, they are killing people. If you know they're not explicitly headed out to kill people, then don't say they are. America is currently getting run over by a piece of shit who believes that "big statements get attention" and it serves no one. More nuance, bro. would it make it better if I said they're headed out explicitly looking to hurt people and not caring if they get killed in the process? I'm not sure why we need nuance for people that are legitimately committing crimes that are worse than 90% of the people they've ever arrested. As Lefty said above, the idiot with his big statement seems to be winning, and not just on this issue. He's also come out in support of police violence. I disagree that it serves no one. I think people in general are tired of being shouted over. This is not a new issue. This has never NOT been an issue. stuttering out 'please stop killing us' isn't working. Make some damn noise. Not many, certainly not at the CPF, think that police violence disproportionately affecting minorities is not an issue. But when you go all 'cops are hunting for sport', you lose a lot of people who agree with you on the basic premise, and any chance, slim as it may be, of getting the 'other half' to listen to you goes right out the goddamn window. I'm sure you see that.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 03:26 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Why am I held to a different standard than to the 'other side'? They spout all sorts of gibberish in support of the police that's not true and we don't say "haha, you lose, you have to fire these people now"? This is akin to letting a murderer walk because the prosecution mistakenly said his address was 442 Main street instead of 224 main street. Why should me stating, an opinion btw this isn't a logical statement with true/false, that i think some of these cops are really really bad instead of just really bad matter in terms of getting anything done?

A Boy Named Seo Oct 10 2017 03:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: Why am I held to a different standard than to the 'other side'? They spout all sorts of gibberish in support of the police that's not true and we don't say "haha, you lose, you have to fire these people now"? This is akin to letting a murderer walk because the prosecution mistakenly said his address was 442 Main street instead of 224 main street. Why should me stating, an opinion btw this isn't a logical statement with true/false, that i think some of these cops are really really bad instead of just really bad matter in terms of getting anything done? My dude, Higher standards, not lower. If you think 'the other side' is misinformed at best, or lying, combative assholes at worst, then you wanna be better than that. I know you have a couple kiddos, I don't. But I'm sure you want them to be the clear-headed, smart ones in a discussion (and I'm sure they are, and will be). We need more of those. Not the noisy, full of shit ones. xoxo, ABNS

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 03:56 PM Re: #Takeaknee Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 10 2017 04:14 PM

In the interest of full disclosure, I know a lot of cops. Two very well, many more because they attend bbq's and family functions. One black (NYS court officers are cops, I don't think that's the case in all states), one hispanic, the rest lily white. Whiter than me, and I'm pretty white! haha They are the finest men (and one woman) I know. They would cut off their foot for you if you needed it and your portrayal (and hard-headed insistence that you're right) is downright insulting and somewhat uninformed. There are two sides to every coin. The shit they go through day after day, night after night is unbelievable. I don't know why anyone would want to be a cop now- adays but thank the saints that some good people do.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 04:06 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Being 'better than that' is subjective as hell. But as far as the 'next generation' goes, I definitely want to see my kids be logical and level-headed, but I also want them to fight for what's right and not back down. And to call a spade a spade. This situation is separate from Trump although it's perhaps enigmatic of similar issues in America. But even with the majority of people being against Trump, and many actively, nothing's actually happened. We shoot to pieces his arguments, tell him that he's wrong, but don't actually enact change. We fought against the Muslim ban, and still Muslim's are less free to move about the country than they were. ICE, who make the average cop look like a saint, are barging into hospitals and forceably evicting people from the country. And what are we doing? suing them? Trump legitimately just refused to release his visitor log. it's gonna take more than saying 'pretty please?' to get change done.' hell, scroll up where Grimm talks about Black Lives Matter's branding issue. It's a common sentiment. "Please stop killing us!" "sorry, could you rephrase and resubmit your application request? All Lives matter you know." *cue 40 rounds of debating phrasing and meaning and nothing actually gets done about the issue at hand* I wish we'd stop engaging this nonsense. Don't ask people if they think the police are killing black people, ask what they're doing to fix the fact that they ARE. Let's talk solutions, not degree of problem. Obviously most cops are fine. nice even. They should be the first out there fighting against corrupt policing, because they're getting a bad rap and having such a large portion of the people you protect scared of you is dangerous for them too! But it's still true that more black people are killed by the police than police are killed in a year. There are good and bad in every profession, but most professions don't have power over the public at large. With power, comes responsibility. Yes, there are some tough parts to policing. But your garbage man is actually more at risk of dying ([url]https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/) on the job.

Centerfield Oct 10 2017 05:02 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Benjamin Grimm wrote: In retrospect, they should have called it "Black Lives Matter Too." Or "Black Lives Also Matter" (BLAM makes for a nice acronym.) I've had this thought too. It's astonishing and disheartening that this clarification needs to be made. It's incredibly frustrating to see counterprotestors chant "All Lives Matter". If they really believed that, then they should be on the other side of the divider, since black lives would seem to be included under the umbrella "all". But that's not really what they are saying. Their point is not that all lives matter. It's that they think black people have it just fine. In some cases, better than whites, and that they should just go sit down and be grateful they're not slaves anymore. If the movement had been called "Black Lives Also Matter", there would be some other truism that they would rally around under the guise of "justice". I've heard "Blue Lives Matter". They would probably go with that and distort the message into an anti-police stance.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 10 2017 05:20 PM Re: #Takeaknee

You're probably right. The movement is saying "Black Lives Also Matter" but the opposition is pretending that they're saying "Only Black Lives Matter". If the movement were, instead, called "Stop Killing Us!" the counter-movement would probably be called "Stop Being Black!"

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 05:25 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Benjamin Grimm wrote: You're probably right. The movement is saying "Black Lives Also Matter" but the opposition is pretending that they're saying "Only Black Lives Matter". If the movement were, instead, called "Stop Killing Us!" the counter-movement would probably be called "Stop Being Black!" nah, it'd be "Stop being thugs". It's the auto-response often given in this case, akin to "she was asking for it"

Edgy MD Oct 10 2017 05:36 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Centerfield wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: In retrospect, they should have called it "Black Lives Matter Too." Or "Black Lives Also Matter" (BLAM makes for a nice acronym.) I've had this thought too. It's astonishing and disheartening that this clarification needs to be made. It's like some folks hearing "God Bless America," and insisting there's an implication of "God screw Cuba." I'm not sure how much indulgence such deliberately wrongheaded arguments deserve. But maybe you could tell the "Don't all lives matter?" crowd that they are using the same bad logic as the "Shouldn't God bless Cuba?" crowd and vice versa.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 05:42 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceets, your hard-headed anti-cop/law enforcement/peace officer hatred is astounding and depressing. At the very least, I hope you can at least find in your blackened soul some realization that we are better off with the police than without them?

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 05:57 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceets, your hard-headed anti-cop/law enforcement/peace officer hatred is astounding and depressing. At the very least, I hope you can at least find in your blackened soul some realization that we are better off with the police than without them? I'm not even sure that's true. [url]http://thefreethoughtproject.com/police-2/ Do you think the vast majority of people not committing crimes aren't doing so because of possibly being arrested for it? Or are people not breaking into your house because of some grander believe that we're all neighbors, that that's your stuff, and this is my stuff. But sure, eventually groups of bad people would take advantage of nobody looking into crimes, nobody chasing them down. But what if that's all they did? What if cops simply responded to crime scenes, tried to solve the crime, and then sent a smaller specialized 'arrest force' to apprehend the criminal? What if only that smaller force had guns? I think we'd be better off. But right now? Am I safer because of presumed bogeymen that may try to harm me and it's only the possibility of me calling the cops on them stopping them? I'm not safer because they're pulling over people, claiming they smell pot, and tearing their car apart. Or responding to a noise complaint and arresting 20 year old kids that are drinking safely in a house? Or chasing teenagers out of parking lots? Or harassing people taking photos of them? We need to narrow the focus on what a 'crime' is and stop giving police jurisdiction over so much of our lives. And I haven't even mentioned domestic violence and sexual abuse, all things the cops deal with extremely poorly as well.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 06:03 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Here's another good article about no cops and links to solutions and things that have actually worked to stem crime and such: [url]http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/policing-is-a-dirty-job-but-nobodys-gotta-do-it-6-ideas-for-a-cop-free-world-20141216 According to the NY Times there are more (mentally) sick people in Rikers than in psychiatric care. Our society is sick and instead of treating it we criminalize being sick.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 06:27 PM Re: #Takeaknee

We're really so polar opposite on this I don't know what else to say. I will add one thing; treating hard-working cops with the same respect you'd give a neighbor or someone you hold a door for would go a long way toward public/police relations. Here's a silly true story: Some time ago a cop rang my doorbell, I answered, and went out on the porch since the dog hates cops almost as much as you do and he asked if I was the homeowner. I said yes, and then he asked if I live alone. I said no, I have a wife. He asked if she was home. I said no. He asked if my wife was a 30ish Hispanic woman about 5'6"... a woman got out of that car (he points) and walked up your driveway after telling the driver she needed to go in the house and get some money. She owes him about a $100. Now... There are people who would flip out and dress down the cop saying my wife didn't do anything why don't you leave us alone don't you have better things to do than harass us taxpaying citizens why don't you go eat a doughnut or fight some real crime. Get off my porch before I call City Hall and report you. Or... Introduce yourself and shake the sergeant's hand. Make a joke that I wish my wife was a 30ish Hispanic woman (he laughs) and tell him you have no idea why she'd go up my driveway. Tell him he's welcome to go look out back if he wants. Tell him if you see anyone on the street later you'll call HQ and wish him a safe evening. I of course chose Or... and left out the often profanity laced nastiness that can often accompany the Now...

Lefty Specialist Oct 10 2017 06:32 PM Re: #Takeaknee

A properly staffed and trained police department is essential to the basic functioning of a civilized society. I think that just like a fan who puts on a team uniform and behaves in ways he never would at work, some cops put on the uniform and view the world with an 'us against them' mindset. I said some, not all. I've run into nice cops, I've also run into steroid freaks bulging out of their uniforms that treat people arrogantly and without respect. I hate to say it, but the percentage of arrogant cops seems to be rising. And I say that as the whitest of white guys. I'd always be the 'or' guy. I'm always polite to cops. Sometimes they're not always polite to me.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 06:54 PM Re: #Takeaknee

The people-become-bouncers so they can rough people up and the some-people- become-cops for the same reason has been a thing for a long time for sure.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 06:58 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: We're really so polar opposite on this I don't know what else to say. I will add one thing; treating hard-working cops with the same respect you'd give a neighbor or someone you hold a door for would go a long way toward public/police relations. respect is earned. I respect my neighbor and my police force as human beings. I treat the police, and the mailman, and the garbage guy the same. They're public servants doing a job, and I'll help in most cases. But my neighbor doesn't have the power to arrest me. or to shoot me if he feels, based on his own comfort level (which as we've discussed, is often racial), that I'm about to harm him. I would've been polite with the cop in your story. I would've helped his investigation of the crime. I would even have grabbed my wildlife camera and laptop and come out and looked at it with him. I would NOT have let him into my home. And if he'd said a man had gotten out of that car, I wouldn't have answered anything. But there's an abuse of power within the police force that needs to be addressed. There are too many people doing bad things and it colors the good cops in a bad light. I'm always going to be suspicious because there are just too many stories. I'd have been worried the cop in your story was fishing for some admittance of guilt from me, unrelated to a skipped fare. Maybe the "30ish hispanic woman" committed a crime and just happened to have been caught on camera earlier in the day small-talking with you at Starbucks and he's really there to see if you're complicit.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 07:34 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: I would NOT have let him into my home. We'll 99% of the time he'd need a warrant, and there was no reason to come into the house and be bitten by my dog. Ceetar wrote: And if he'd said a man had gotten out of that car, I wouldn't have answered anything. Well I'm hetero and had nothing to hide or not answer for. Ceetar wrote: I'm always going to be suspicious because there are just too many stories. I'd have been worried the cop in your story was fishing for some admittance of guilt from me, unrelated to a skipped fare. Maybe the "30ish hispanic woman" committed a crime and just happened to have been caught on camera earlier in the day small-talking with you at Starbucks and he's really there to see if you're complicit. This kind of paranoia was why I long ago stopped smoking weed. Maybe she was a prostitute and he thought I was pimping her out of my home. Don't say nothing, man. They might be onto me.

41Forever Oct 10 2017 07:58 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: I wasn't snickering at you. just snickering at the idea that the cops are gonna stop killing people for sport. I don't think this is hyperbole based on some of your other statements. My father was a cop. Several of my uncles and cousins are cops. I work very closely with cops. No one I know thinks that way. I do know cops who put their lives on the line to keep us safe. I know of a number of cops who died in the line of duty. Several cops on my cousins' department where shot sitting in their cruiser. If there is a problem with a particular cop, address the problem. If there is a problem with a particular department, then address the problem. But to say that cops are out there killing people for sport is just plain wrong. In my eyes, police officers are heroes and I'm proud of the ones I know. I respect that you are free to have an opinion and express it. I'm not sure what life experiences have led you to that opinion. But you are flat out wrong. I don't care if a football player takes a knee.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 08:21 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I'm not flat out wrong, there are literally cases on a regular basis of unarmed and non-aggressive black people getting killed by police. This is systemic in the whole concept of policing, and it's just one of many issues. Obviously there are good cops. Obviously some of them died serving at keeping us safe. First responders in particular. They're heroes. That's the case literally everywhere in every profession. There are ton of noble and good people that were part of a fraternity, it doesn't mean there isn't a very real sexual abuse problem within the greek system as a whole. Greg Hardy and Michael Vick, et al, don't mean that every NFL player is a cretin. But there ARE power-hungry violently aggressive cops and they ARE causing a problem. Cops as a whole are granted power and just because the good cops aren't abusing it doesn't mean that they're not painted in a bad light because of their colleagues. And yes, I've had mostly negative experiences with cops. That's a small sample size and means little. But the reports are out there. This is a problem. Good cops throwing up their hands and saying "Not all cops!" isn't solving the problem.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 08:33 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: I'm not flat out wrong, there are literally cases on a regular basis of unarmed and non-aggressive black people getting killed by police. This is systemic in the whole concept of policing Not flat out, but 98.763% wrong. Cops get shot all the time approaching vehicles, barely news. Ironic... they deserved it is the mentality to some.

41Forever Oct 10 2017 08:35 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: I'm not flat out wrong, there are literally cases on a regular basis of unarmed and non-aggressive black people getting killed by police. This is systemic in the whole concept of policing, and it's just one of many issues. Obviously there are good cops. Obviously some of them died serving at keeping us safe. First responders in particular. They're heroes. That's the case literally everywhere in every profession. There are ton of noble and good people that were part of a fraternity, it doesn't mean there isn't a very real sexual abuse problem within the greek system as a whole. Greg Hardy and Michael Vick, et al, don't mean that every NFL player is a cretin. But there ARE power-hungry violently aggressive cops and they ARE causing a problem. Cops as a whole are granted power and just because the good cops aren't abusing it doesn't mean that they're not painted in a bad light because of their colleagues. And yes, I've had mostly negative experiences with cops. That's a small sample size and means little. But the reports are out there. This is a problem. Good cops throwing up their hands and saying "Not all cops!" isn't solving the problem. Asserting that police officers are hunting people for sport isn't solving the problem, either. I stand by my comment. You are flat out wrong.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 08:40 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: Ceetar wrote: I'm not flat out wrong, there are literally cases on a regular basis of unarmed and non-aggressive black people getting killed by police. This is systemic in the whole concept of policing Not flat out, but 98.763% wrong. Cops get shot all the time approaching vehicles, barely news. Ironic... they deserved it is the mentality to some. much much less often than people are killed by the police.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 08:48 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Don't forget the ones cowardly murdered when they're just sitting eating a proverbial doughnut. They deserved that too, to some.

Ceetar Oct 10 2017 08:57 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Nobody deserves it. I'd argue literally no one deserves to be put to death, period, but that's a different argument. Read through some of the databases. "41 year old male advanced with a knife" wtf does that even mean? You've got a gun and the authority and someone turns around and holds up a knife and that's a death sentence? Attacking a police officer is absolutely a serious crime but we have to have a little more transparency than "I felt threatened, so I fired to kill" This stuff is way too 'first instinct is to fire with deadly force' especially when they're the ones that escalated the situation in the first place. Every single one of these people is an innocent person. There is little accountability, sometimes these deaths don't even go down on the death certificate. We don't have an honest account of it all. These are human beings. Police have the authority and the weaponry and fail to keep the peace. 963 people killed by the police in 2016. 64 police officers were killed.

d'Kong76 Oct 10 2017 09:22 PM Re: #Takeaknee

That 963 would have to broken down by in the line of duty and whatever it is your side (yes, I said side again) deems unnecessary death. Please include the number of ones hunted down for sport while you're at it. You'll need to retract that eventually or we'll dance until spring training lol. Oh, and it wouldn't be hard to find six sites on the other side (oops, said side again) that are just as contrary to the views and expressions of that thefree thoughtprojectdotcom but all six would suck too --but may not have a story about Dolly Parton's boob size before and after.

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 12:48 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Can we all agree that Pence's charade this weekend was the work of an absolutely weenie, and completely insincere nonsense?

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2017 01:02 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Fuck Pence, cops don't sit around in a Wendy's parking lot planning on which person to hunt down next for sport is my beef. And I'm not even aggravated at Ceets at this point, he's a good dude and I know how stubborn he is and he'll never ever take it back so, like the kids say... whatev...

41Forever Oct 11 2017 01:13 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: Nobody deserves it. I'd argue literally no one deserves to be put to death, period, but that's a different argument. Read through some of the databases. "41 year old male advanced with a knife" wtf does that even mean? You've got a gun and the authority and someone turns around and holds up a knife and that's a death sentence? Attacking a police officer is absolutely a serious crime but we have to have a little more transparency than "I felt threatened, so I fired to kill" This stuff is way too 'first instinct is to fire with deadly force' especially when they're the ones that escalated the situation in the first place. Every single one of these people is an innocent person. There is little accountability, sometimes these deaths don't even go down on the death certificate. We don't have an honest account of it all. These are human beings. Police have the authority and the weaponry and fail to keep the peace. 963 people killed by the police in 2016. 64 police officers were killed. I oppose capital punishment as well. "Advancing with a knife" means that someone was approaching an officer with a deadly weapon. Such a person is a threat to the office and others. Police will warn the offender multiple times and use deadly force only as the absolute last resort. Or, police will use deadly force to stop someone from hurting others. If police had burst into that room in Vegas and needed to take him out to stop his mass murder in progress, I don't have a problem with that. Yes, mental wellness, alcohol and, especially, drugs are factors. My brother in law is a prosecutor and said drugs, directly and indirectly, are a factor in the vast majority of the crimes he deals with. The sooner we get that problem under control, the better off we all will be. We have mental wellness courts and are working on drug courts here to help people get help before they spend more time in the criminal justice system. But if you are charging an officier with a weapon and the officer has no choice but to use deadly force, you are not being hunted for sport.

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 01:57 PM Re: #Takeaknee

geeze. Fine. I retract my statement. Cops are not hunting for sport. But all the other stuff is huge and a big problem and there are a lot of bad cops and bad policing going on. I think it's completely ridiculous and sad at the number of deaths at police hands and I think a lot of them are trigger happy and power-hungry and escalate situations that they're supposed to be de-escalating and that leads to deaths. And there are videos of cops being violent and racist towards people, particularly black people/kids and showing little remorse. And I have little doubt that some cops in certain places feel that they are "at war" with cartels, or gangs, or whatever. forgetting that they're supposed to be keeping the peace, and protecting those people as well. No resident is an enemy of the police, they're the fucking job. I hate the attitude that cops are supposed to get bad guys. It's what paints them as cowboy bounty hunters bringing in the evil enemy. But they're all just people. I don't think police should be firing to kill someone that simply brandishes a knife and refuses to put it down (though I admit there are plenty of situations where they can and should). But often the only account and even the wording of what happened is the cop's. Like, there's a report from 2016 where "suspect was sleeping in his car and reaching for his gun and was shot" Like you startled this guy awake and he felt threatened. That's the escalation I mean. It's deeper than the just the cops though. I'd love more training and less on "shoot to kill" and more on negotiating. More on de-escalation programs. More of the stuff I linked in the Rolling Stones article about no cops. More on mental health. More accountability, more body cams, less quotas. Treat our poor better so they're not forced into crime. Educate our kids better so that poor blacks can find something more worthwhile than the drug trade. Prevent crime, not fighting it.

41Forever Oct 11 2017 02:46 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: And I have little doubt that some cops in certain places feel that they are "at war" with cartels, or gangs, or whatever. forgetting that they're supposed to be keeping the peace, and protecting those people as well. No resident is an enemy of the police, they're the fucking job. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying the police should be protecting the drug cartels, gangs and other criminals?

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 02:57 PM Re: #Takeaknee

41Forever wrote: Ceetar wrote: And I have little doubt that some cops in certain places feel that they are "at war" with cartels, or gangs, or whatever. forgetting that they're supposed to be keeping the peace, and protecting those people as well. No resident is an enemy of the police, they're the fucking job. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying the police should be protecting the drug cartels, gangs and other criminals? no, they should be protecting the _people_ that are part of the cartels. They are people. that live in their jurisdiction. that they're sworn to protect. to keep the peace. Obviously if/when these people disturb that peace you enforce the laws and do the best you can, but again, it runs deeper. there are 16 year old kids in there that had very few other options but to get dragged into the mess that otherwise, in a fairer world, might be applying to college. They are still people. Some of them pretty bad people by this point, but even still the police are not the judges. they're innocent until tried. It falls way too far on the "killing for the greater good" side of the line for my liking and I feel like the police should, on some level, be above it all.

metsmarathon Oct 11 2017 03:06 PM Re: #Takeaknee

so, i like to look at things through the perspective of analogy. why, because it's usually wordier than talking about something directly. and i like me some wordiness. i think it is perfectly possible for police officers to be, on the whole and for the most part, truly fine people, albeit with some bad apples mixed in, at all levels. and this doesn't mean that all cops are killers, or that all cops are hunting black people for sport, or that cops choose to kill people because it's more convenient than pulling out their handcuffs, and once you lose the key you can never get them off again, and i haven't seen that key in weeks, damnit, so why not just pump some lead into a guy and be done with it, plus the back seat stays cleaner. so look, first i'm going to go down a rabbit hole, because i like to do those sorts of things. wordiness, you know. in our military there is a massive problem with sexual harrassment and sexual assault. well, really, it's a problem up and down our society, at every level and across every strata. but in our military, it's particularly vexing. why? because it's soldier on soldier. brother-in-arms against sister-in-arms (and often times against brother-in-arms as well). what the fuck sense does that make? you're going to the fight together, and you're tearing each other down, preying on your own ranks? seriously? you're supposed to be, training to be leaders, honor bound to uphold and defend, and all that jazz, and you do this shit?? to each other? and to civilians as well? fuck! and while this is a topic for another discussion, the point is, really, that it does not mean that every soldier is a rapist, and that everyone who joins the military does so because they wish to rape. it does not mean that every officer is leading his men to rape, and every commander is instilling it into his mission. but it's a problem, and a damned difficult one to kick. so what does it have to do with police misconduct/racism/oppression? i think i'll get there if you allow me... if there is a problem in the ranks, it is difficult to pull it out. it takes courage, and leadership, and vision, and strength, and patience. because there are always those who don't see a problem until it's bitten them personally in their own ass. and there are always those who then won't even admit to having been bitten. and some people say it's no big deal, and others say it's always been that way so why change it, and others who think that it just simply cannot be changed. and some people thing that the way it is is the way they like it, and others like being part of the problem. and you have to overcome each of those types of people every time you want to effect change. pressure can come from the outside, but how effective is it to yell at soldiers, "hey, you're all a bunch of rapists!" does that help? no. engaging the problem in real and hoest terms, though, can start to move the needle. "hey, soldiers, you don't want rapists among you. it hurts your unit and hurts your morale and hurts your mission" and here's how and why it does those things. and suddenly, eventually, hopefully, things change. instead of commanders seeking to hide misconduct, thinking it to be one-time lapses, begin to see the potential for patterns to develop, to carry forward, to perpetuate. and seeing that they have the opportunity to stop that, maybe thy act for the good of the whole military to allow a bad thing that happened under them to come to light, so that no more may exist in the darkness. and maybe that spreads, far and wide, and then the problem isn't a problem any more, and the military can hold itself up as an example for the solution. well, i can dream, right? so, what does that have to do with anything? well, to the point of police misconduct, i think it's relevant. there are plenty of good cops. most, in fact, are good cops. but there are indeed bad cops. and there are bad policies too. and in many cases, maybe there's just bad training. and if you can resolve each of those issues, then maybe you can solve the whole problem. but first you need to accept the possibility that a problem could exist. you don't get people to accept the possibility of a problem existing by stating "cops are killing for sport" either through hyperbole or exaggeration, or just joking around. it simply does not get you anywhere and does not advance your own damned cause. if you want to bring people around to your viewpoint, you need to open their eyes, not turn their backs. you have a problem with how police handle themselves. cool. let's talk about each of those things. i think there are a few issues that are important, and they all weave together into an exquisite tapestry. one (i'm numbering, but they're not in order). there appears to be a lack of training in terms of conflict de-escalation. two. there is a growing sense of us vs them, both from inside the force and outside. they are civilians, just as are we. three. there is a growing militarization of the police. it heightens 2 and exacerbates 1. four. there are indeed policies which, either intentionally or unintentionally, place undue burdens on racial minorities. five. there may be laws on the books which, either intentionally or unintentionally, place undue burdens on racial minorities. six. there are institutionalized biases which magnify these burdens, and organizational histories which reinforce these biases, and individual confirmation biases which encircle both of these. seven. there are individuals within the force who are indeed racist, and some of them may be at high grades and with great influence. eight. there is institutional pressure to present a face of solidarity; that acknowledging and facing and solving a problem that truly exists will somehow cause more damage to the whole than allowing the problem to persist. nine. as a whole, people do not like to admit that they are wrong, or did something wrong, or were complicit in the act of doing wrong. ten. this list is long enough, and i'm starting to ramble. but fine. ten. there are certain long-term socio-econo-politico-historical pressures which have stripped wealth and opportunity from large groups of the population, and those groups may largely (but not always) be drawn along racial lines. now, put all of these things together, and you have a system where a perfectly innocent black guy driving his car has a far greater fear of the outcome of a traffic stop, than does a white guy, with the same background driving the same car in the same way through the same neighborhood. so what do we do? what should we do? well, we could shout out that all cops are sport killers, wantonly hunting down unsuspecting black and brown people. or maybe we could yell that they only kill thugs and people who want to be thugs. and then we'll get nowhere because none of us are being intellectually honest. there's enough intellectual dishonesty flitting and twitting about. lets not add to the noise. ok. so what then can we really do? one, (here i go with numbers again) we can acknowledge that most people go into policing because they truly want to make their communities safer, better places. and two, we can strive to engage those people, and those people who would agree with that statement, to become open to the possibility that a problem exists, and that by actually acknowledging this possibility, by seeing that each of the ten things i've identified may be true, then we can go about solving the problems together. demonizing the cops doesn't solve the problem. marginalizing the black police experience doesn't solve the problem. working together, to find common ground - that solves problems. as far as your numbers. 1 in 30,000 police officers was killed in 2016. 1 in 300,000 americans was killed by police officers. i don't know what meaning you hope to find therein. i guess you're looking to say that cops are 15 times more likely to kill than be killed. though you could easily look to those same numbers to show that the police have more to fear of us than we of them. neither assertion is particularly helpful. 963 dead civilians is 963 too many, and 64 dead officers is 64 too many. so again, lets look to frame arguments in helpful, meaningful, intellectually honest, non-hyperbolic ways. or we could just shout at each other some more. does that seem to work?

metsmarathon Oct 11 2017 03:09 PM Re: #Takeaknee

damnit, ceets. i write up a big long post and then you go and retract your statement and put forth meaningful dialogue that obviates the need for my danged long post. what you wrote in your last two posts is what the conversation needs to be focused on, not the sport-killing bs. THAT'S how you change minds and win hearts. that's how you effect change. that's how this problem gets solved.

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 03:36 PM Re: #Takeaknee

metsmarathon wrote: damnit, ceets. i write up a big long post and then you go and retract your statement and put forth meaningful dialogue that obviates the need for my danged long post. what you wrote in your last two posts is what the conversation needs to be focused on, not the sport-killing bs. THAT'S how you change minds and win hearts. that's how you effect change. that's how this problem gets solved. I'd also like to point out that hyperbole in a closed forum (About baseball) isn't quite the same thing as engaging in an endeavor to fix it. I didn't comment here with the hope or expectation to change minds or solve the problem and while it is hyperbole there are many that do actually believe that and I have a hard time telling THEM that they're wrong to think so. And that they believe it is also part of the problem that needs to be addressed. I'll add something to yours though, this.. metsmarathon wrote: one, (here i go with numbers again) we can acknowledge that most people go into policing because they truly want to make their communities safer, better places. and two, we can strive to engage those people, and those people who would agree with that statement, to become open to the possibility that a problem exists, and that by actually acknowledging this possibility, by seeing that each of the ten things i've identified may be true, then we can go about solving the problems together. Is also part of the problem. I don't know that I believe that motivation, or at least as the #1 motivator. This varies, but a lot of places require little education. The police force (and the military) are real careers for these people, perhaps the only real option above working at Walmart. The schism between the amount of responsibility and the amount of education is too high. i know we're already having a problem with enough low-educated jobs, but I don't think the police force should fit that bill. I think there are very complex duties involved that need, at the very least, a ton more training than is currently provided. People are drawn towards the police force as the only 'good' career option and I don't think that's a very good selector of the best cops.

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 03:39 PM Re: #Takeaknee

You know who can bridge the gap between civilians and police? Great work, 'thon.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 11 2017 03:52 PM Re: #Takeaknee Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 11 2017 04:16 PM

I mostly took Ceetar's side on this one, rationalizing to myself that he had exaggerated the "kill for sport" line and didn't really mean that. I mean, of course there's a terrible objectively documented and really indisputable history of cops treating African-Americans awfully. And the blanket statement that all cops are heroes is fucking ridiculous. All cops? Really? That's absurd. There are awful cops out there just as there are bad nurses, bad accountants, bad lawyers, bad carpenters, bad presidents of the USA and bad everything. Bad Democrats. Even bad Republicans, if you have the open-mindedness to imagine that one. And yes, cops are known to circle the wagon with their thin blue line and knowingly cover for their fellow bad cops and their bad actions. Me personally, I have very few memories, if any, of cops having to pay the price for alleged bad violent acts against civilians before the age of smartphones and ubiquitous photograph and video making technology.

41Forever Oct 11 2017 04:02 PM Re: #Takeaknee

The police force (and the military) are real careers for these people, perhaps the only real option above working at Walmart. I think you should take a peek at the requirements and training to be a part of a police force.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2017 04:20 PM Re: #Takeaknee

41Forever wrote: The police force (and the military) are real careers for these people, perhaps the only real option above working at Walmart. I think you should take a peek at the requirements and training to be a part of a police force. My pseudo-niece is a SUNY graduate (honor student) with a degree in criminal justice or whatever it's called and was an all-conference athlete. The Walmart joke is just more fluffernutter. She'll be NYPD soon and if you see her ya better walk straight and treat her like your own niece. She opted for NYPD because she says that if you have a couple of years with NYPD on your resume you can pretty much get a job anywhere in the country down the line if you want.

41Forever Oct 11 2017 04:38 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Kudos to your niece!

Frayed Knot Oct 11 2017 05:04 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Back to the original topic of this thread: I initially said I wasn't all that interested in this whole thing: I thought the original protest was small and not very well defined yet had zero in sympathy with the counter-protesters. NOW, however, it's starting to get interesting. Between Jerry Jones threatening ANY of his players who don't stand at rapt attention and now Gooddel's letter which claims to want to "work with" his players but sounds more like someone who realizes that this thing is gaining momentum -- in no small thanks to Agent Orange's usual faux tough-guy act -- to the point of threatening the league, its networks, and various advertisers.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2017 05:06 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Frayed Knot wrote: Back to the original topic of this thread I was going to get back to it but was waiting for Rey Ordoñez to come up before we moved on...

batmagadanleadoff Oct 11 2017 05:14 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Just as there are bad cops and bad nurses, there are bad ballplayers who never even deserved to play in the majors. Like Rey Ordonez.

d'Kong76 Oct 11 2017 05:19 PM Re: #Takeaknee

There ya go, thank you...

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 05:26 PM Re: #Takeaknee

41Forever wrote: The police force (and the military) are real careers for these people, perhaps the only real option above working at Walmart. I think you should take a peek at the requirements and training to be a part of a police force. Oklahoma recently LOWERED the requirements to merely an Associates degree. in Utah (SLC) you need a GED and to be 21. those are two of the worst states in terms of black people killed by police. New Mexico too, which requires only 30 credits completed while you attend their academy. Maine only requires a GED.

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 05:54 PM Re: #Takeaknee

None of which backs up what you wrote. And it's also untrue. Citing the previous education minimum standard as what is "merely" required is grossly incorrect. As if you complete an associate's degree and get handed a badge and a gun and sent out on highway patrol. And to cite two western states, as if that's broadly representative, is an obvious fallacy. Why do you do this? It damages the argument every time.

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 06:09 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: None of which backs up what you wrote. And it's also untrue. Citing the previous education minimum standard as what is "merely" required is grossly incorrect. And to cite two western states, as if that's broadly representative, is an obvious fallacy. Why do you do this? It damages the argument every time. I picked some of the states that had the worst rates of blacks dead at the hands of the police and found reduced and lower requirements for the job. To cite one person as broadly representative of the opposite is not helpful either. I don't believe that cops, as a rule, go into it because they're looking to make the community safer/a better place. I think the primary motivator is the job itself, the paycheck, the steady career and future it provides. Here, one study that found that even though none required it, 45% of cops in the study had a college degree. [url]http://www.futurity.org/are-college-educated-police-better-cops-851672/ “There are a lot of so-called ‘cop shops’ out there that aren’t that very academically rigorous,” Terrill says. well that's a reassuring quote.

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 06:12 PM Re: #Takeaknee

This game of Make an Indefensibly Slanderous Statement and Then Waste Time and Server Space Trying to Defend It Against People Who Would Rather Be Your Allies is a real buzzkill.

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 06:17 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: This game of Make an Indefensibly Slanderous Statement and Then Waste Time and Server Space Trying to Defend It Against People Who Would Rather Be Your Allies is a real buzzkill. yes, so stop doing it. I'm not slandering anyone, I'm merely stating an opinion about the motivation of people that get into the force. Kong posted one example of someone he knew that was over-qualified (has a degree but the NYPD only requires 60 credits or military service) that didn't disprove my point about qualifications or talk about motivations for the job as a whole. 41 suggested I should look at the qualifications, and I looked at some and found mostly associates degree, some college credit, and all this 'cop shop' stuff.

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 06:55 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I? is also a stupid game. I stopped three pages ago after you thought it was cute to snicker at me. Then you spent multiple pages wasting everybody's time defending a ridiculously slanderous comment while I just watched and watched and watched. No sooner do you finally give that up than you restart the engine by laying another one down. I apologize for re-engaging. I really hoped you have something better than "so stop doing it," as if I had been doing anything at all.

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 07:03 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I? is also a stupid game. I stopped three pages ago after you thought it was cute to snicker at me. Then you spent multiple page wasting everybody's time defending a ridiculously slanderous comment while I just watched and watched and watched. No sooner do you finally give that up than you restart the engine by laying another one down. I apologize for re-engaging. I really hoped you have something better than "so stop doing it," as if I had been doing anything at all. you made a false statement about my point and basically called me an idiot. If you have actual rebuttal information, or even a differing opinion, state it. You should know this by now, but I'll restate it because it is often hard on the internet. I'm extremely sarcastic. "Yeah, I'm sure positive change will come of this" was said with a pessimistic sneer. Not at you hoping for it, just the idea of that actually ending up being the result. (and ultimately it will change, it just might take 150 years)

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 07:07 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: you made a false statement about my point No, I didn't. Ceetar wrote: and basically called me an idiot. No I didn't. Ceetar wrote: If you have actual rebuttal information, or even a differing opinion, state it. My father was a cop, and then a highly celebrated executive, not a WalMart clerk. You slandered him. My uncle died defending a man of color, not hunting him for sport. You slandered him too. That's my rebuttal. Ceetar wrote: You should know this by now, but I'll restate it because it is often hard on the internet. I'm extremely sarcastic. I'm not interested in how you like think of yourself. If you can't back your words up, you can't. And you can't.

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 07:17 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. I'm trying to talk about policing as a whole. Your Uncle was clearly a hero, that doesn't mean there is no policing problem AND THIS IS PRECISELY THE POINT. good cops are out there playing "Not all cops" and blaming bad apples and hence the problem does not get fixed. Their response to the Black Lives Matter movement is to paint blue lines in the street and circle the wagons. FIX IT.

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 07:19 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: that doesn't mean there is no policing problem If you find somebody here stating that, please point them out to me.

Ceetar Oct 11 2017 07:26 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: Ceetar wrote: that doesn't mean there is no policing problem If you find somebody here stating that, please point them out to me. Well I thought we were talking about the bad cops and the problems that are out there, not the good ones. It doesn't slander good cops to point out true statements about bad ones or to have an opinion about the education requirements and motivations to join the force.

Ashie62 Oct 11 2017 09:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

On a lighter note sorry about your uncle Edgy.

Edgy MD Oct 11 2017 10:26 PM Re: #Takeaknee

That's not exactly lighter, but I know what you mean. Thank you, that's very kind. It was 25 years ago this Thanksgiving. The year "Cop Killer" hit the charts. I don't know that that was a factor, but that sort of hyperbole has an impact.

metsmarathon Oct 12 2017 06:27 PM Re: #Takeaknee

if all the good cops would tell the bad cops to do better, we wouldn't have policing problems anymore, so they're all to blame. and if all the good blacks told the bad blacks to stop being thugs anymore we wouldn't have crime problems anymore, so they're all to blame. and if all the good muslims told the bad muslims to stop flying planes into buildings we wouldn't have terrorism anymore, so they're all to blame. it's easy to lay the blame for a subset of a population on that whole population, but when you change the context just a wee bit, it tends to get uncomfortable. if you hope to engage the police, and those who support them, in a meaningful dialogue regarding how to fix the policing problems that are evident in our society, you do not start off by making the baseless accusation that, because you are a police officer, you must be an undereducated, jackbooted, racist, authoritarian killing machine.

Ceetar Oct 12 2017 06:47 PM Re: #Takeaknee

We could start by not having fundraisers for cops that kill black people and feel threatened by the backlash too.

d'Kong76 Oct 12 2017 08:15 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I can tell some stories, true stories, but why throw gas on this cluster fuck of fire. People are gonna believe what they want, and like ya'll like to say haters are gonna hate.

Edgy MD Oct 27 2017 08:40 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Texans Owner Bob McNair at the summit gathering of players, NFLPA reps, management, and owners, regarding protests: 'We Can't Have Inmates Running the Prison'. Tipping your hand a little there, man.

d'Kong76 Oct 27 2017 09:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I suppose on some level we're all just as bad calling the NFL - The National Felon League. Even in humor, I suppose that could be offensive to the 99.8%* of football players who haven't had unlawful behavioral incidents. If his stupid comments get some legs he'll be selling soon. On some level. Not looking for a page-long battle here. * estimate, no idea what the real percentage is

Frayed Knot Oct 27 2017 11:29 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Some are going to read that comment as racial which is understandable, particularly after turning the normal phrasing of the idiom from 'asylum' to 'prison'. And although I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he didn't mean it that way, I think the bigger thing it reflects is the long-held feeling in the NFL that the players are more or less interchangeable parts whose job it is to do what they're told when they're told to do it with no tendencies towards individuality at all; not quite slave-like as is often referenced but more akin to a pack of army recruits: While you're here, we own your ass! I've long been convinced that part of the reason some football fans prefer the college version of the game is that it still remains closer to the long ago model when athletes had zero control over their lives and careers.

Edgy MD Oct 28 2017 02:52 AM Re: #Takeaknee

A key is that he was dumb enough to say in a room where players were present, and then to expect fruitful, good-faith discussions with the players.

Frayed Knot Oct 28 2017 03:41 AM Re: #Takeaknee

When have the owners ever expected to have fruitful, good-faith discussions with the players? They expect the players to do what they're told and STFU about it. This movement had pretty much petered itself out prior to President Stupid re-opening things. Since then it's occurred to Goodel that they've got to do some damage control in order not to alienate more fans in the face of declining in-house attendance and TV numbers, but that message apparently hasn't made its way to either of the Texas owners anyway and I suspect not a lot of the others either.

Edgy MD Oct 28 2017 01:00 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Frayed Knot wrote: When have the owners ever expected to have fruitful, good-faith discussions with the players? They expect the players to do what they're told and STFU about it. I think they expect it to be good-faith by the players, and fruitful to themselves. But I still think it's damaging when one of the princes calls the players convicts to their faces.

Frayed Knot Oct 28 2017 01:59 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Oh it's definitely damaging - I'm just saying that I see it more as an extension of the owners' natural paternalistic attitude and their frustrations as to why can't these players be brought to heel as easily as those college players can rather than as a racial thing even though one can understand if a race angle is read into this too. But between statements like this and the earlier one from Jerry Jones and the one(s) from the President, the owners have managed to take an issue that was pretty much dying out and not only revived it but kicked it into a higher gear and given the players something that they actually might rally around for once. Lord knows they don't during labor negotiations.

Nymr83 Oct 29 2017 04:41 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I guess Maxwell got tired of being known as the only MLB player to take a knee, so now he can be known as the gun-toting criminal who pointed a weapon at a delivery person. Schmuck.

metsmarathon May 25 2018 01:52 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Well I for one am so glad the nfl stepped up and stood in the way of the players kneeling in respectful protest of getting shot at by cops, so that I won’t get any uncomfortable feelings while I restock my snack wagon before football games this coming season. It’s so awful how issues of equality and fairness have to get in the way and make people all feeling weird. Keep the damned politics out of sports so I can have more time watching boner med ads three times on each change of possession. Because that’s what we need in America. Less time having meaningful conversations about civil rights and humanity, and more time fielding questions from our four-year olds like “daddy, what’s an erection? Why is it bad for it to last four hours? Did you have an erection? Should we get those for grampy so he can take a bath with your mom?”

Frayed Knot May 25 2018 02:49 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Not only did the owners/commissioner make no attempt to involve the player's union in this latest decision but they also apparently did an end-run around those owners who they knew, or at least suspected, weren't going to support the hard line. No formal vote was even taken on this but once those in favor knew there weren't enough to stop them they just went ahead and issued the edict.

Lefty Specialist May 25 2018 12:01 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Taking a knee was kind of fading away on its own. In the last week of the regular season only 7 players in the entire NFL took a knee. But this is the very definition of hitting a fly with a sledgehammer; it's now a free-speech issue. This is white billionaires currying favor with Trump.

seawolf17 May 25 2018 12:50 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist wrote: Taking a knee was kind of fading away on its own. In the last week of the regular season only 7 players in the entire NFL took a knee. But this is the very definition of hitting a fly with a sledgehammer; it's now a free-speech issue. This is white billionaires currying favor with Trump. Bingo. And yet at the same time, you've got guys like the Jets' owner who are like "don't worry about it, I'll pay the fines." Everything is so fucking stupid right now.

dgwphotography May 25 2018 01:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist wrote: Taking a knee was kind of fading away on its own. In the last week of the regular season only 7 players in the entire NFL took a knee. But this is the very definition of hitting a fly with a sledgehammer; it's now a free-speech issue. This is white billionaires currying favor with Trump. I call bullshit on this. This is billionaires seeing declining ratings and panicking. If their ratings went up last year, this wouldn't have been an issue.

MFS62 May 25 2018 01:58 PM Re: #Takeaknee Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 25 2018 02:21 PM

This is billionaires seeing declining ratings and panicking. If their ratings went up last year, this wouldn't have been an issue. I may have posted parts of this before, but I think it bears repeating: Up until a few years ago, the National Anthem ceremony wasn't shown before regular season games. (baseball games, too). It wasn't until the networks started running ads paid by the different Armed Forces that showing it was part of the deal. As a veteran I would like to point out that this protest was never about the flag. I swore to uphold the Constitution of the United States. That Constitution, and other laws of the Land, provide for equal protection under that law. The people who kneel are calling attention to the fact that not all Americans are equally protected and are, in fact, discriminated against by some people who also swore to uphold those laws. The protests have been misrepresented (to be about the flag and patriotism) by people who would divide us. And it wouldn't have been a major issue if a certain five time draft dodger, someone who took umbrage when someone told him to read the Constitution, hadn't made it an issue, throwing red meat to his supporters. Later

batmagadanleadoff May 25 2018 02:14 PM Re: #Takeaknee

seawolf17 wrote: Everything is so fucking stupid right now. Wanna know what's really fucking stupid? That they even play the National Anthem before sporting events in the first place. Also, the military's gripes over this is about the most moronic, ill-informed makes no sense to me protest I just about ever heard. Idiots making stupid complaints about what isn't even their business.

Ceetar May 25 2018 02:16 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Mets Willets Point May 25 2018 02:17 PM Re: #Takeaknee

If ratings went down last seasons it's important to remember that a) Black people make up a major part of the NFL fanbase and b) Black leaders called for an NFL boycott in response to the blacklisting of Kaepernick. If the NFL cared about ratings they'd reinstate Kaepernick and work with players on protests. They don't. They care about money and supporting the Fascist takeover of the United States.

Lefty Specialist May 25 2018 02:51 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist May 25 2018 03:03 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Ratings went down but not because any players protested. If the networks even showed it, it was for a few seconds. They went down for a number of factors; two bad teams in the New York market for one. Football's fanbase is diminishing, though. People see the injuries and the head trauma involved and are preventing their kids from playing, for one thing. It's a whole different thread than taking a knee, but football itself will have to change or die eventually. It's too violent a sport and the consequences of playing it are too obvious.

Edgy MD May 25 2018 03:31 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I haven't given two shits about the NFL since, like 92. Maybe earlier. But any baseball game I go to in the immediate future, I'm taking that knee. These players deserve solidarity. And I LOVE standing and singing the anthem.

Nymr83 May 25 2018 04:08 PM Re: #Takeaknee

dgwphotography wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: Taking a knee was kind of fading away on its own. In the last week of the regular season only 7 players in the entire NFL took a knee. But this is the very definition of hitting a fly with a sledgehammer; it's now a free-speech issue. This is white billionaires currying favor with Trump. I call bullshit on this. This is billionaires seeing declining ratings and panicking. If their ratings went up last year, this wouldn't have been an issue. agree with DGW. whether or not the knee stuff is the real cause of the decline, it is a perceived cause in the minds of owners

metsmarathon May 25 2018 04:29 PM Re: #Takeaknee

i'm glad that i have sufficient privilege to consider the level of annoyance and discomfort that observing a peaceful protest might cause me, as opposed to being susceptible to violent arrest for any minor legal infraction or sometimes not even breaking the law at all.

Rockin' Doc May 25 2018 10:21 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: I'm not going to go around this wheel with you. Most of the players in the NFL got free educations and at least one or two big paychecks. If they wind up divorced and bankrupt can't really see blaming on their previous employer. I don't feel sorry for professional athletes who make more in a week than many people make in a year. If they squander their earnings on unwise choices or by trusting the wrong individuals they have only themselves to blame.

Ceetar May 26 2018 12:01 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Rockin' Doc wrote: d'Kong76 wrote: I'm not going to go around this wheel with you. Most of the players in the NFL got free educations and at least one or two big paychecks. If they wind up divorced and bankrupt can't really see blaming on their previous employer. I don't feel sorry for professional athletes who make more in a week than many people make in a year. If they squander their earnings on unwise choices or by trusting the wrong individuals they have only themselves to blame. they are literally brain damaged for our amusement.

Rockin' Doc May 26 2018 12:36 AM Re: #Takeaknee

They should know the risks involved. It is a risk they willingly take in order to make lucrative salaries far exceeding what the vast majority of the public can dream of making. If they don't wish to assume the risk, then they should go the nine to five route like most other people. I think the vast majority of working people would change places with professional athletes in a heartbeat. I suspect most of the athletes would opt to take keep their lucrative gig, rather than change with the average johnny lunchbucket.

MFS62 May 26 2018 01:10 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Ceetar wrote: they are literally brain damaged for our amusement. Like the Bleacher Creatures at YS III. Later

Edgy MD May 27 2018 05:10 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Rockin' Doc wrote: They should know the risks involved. It is a risk they willingly take in order to make lucrative salaries far exceeding what the vast majority of the public can dream of making. If they don't wish to assume the risk, then they should go the nine to five route like most other people. I think the vast majority of working people would change places with professional athletes in a heartbeat. I suspect most of the athletes would opt to take keep their lucrative gig, rather than change with the average johnny lunchbucket. I would not trade places with an NFL player for all the cannoli on Arthur Avenue. As for most NFL players, if they wouldn't switch with me, it's because they've been sold a bill of goods about wealth and glory. In fact, if you meet an ex-NFL player, there's every likelihood he's been divorced, bankrupt, or crippled, with a damn good chance he's been all three. But many are seeing the light and walking away. And many don't have much of a 9 to 5 alternative because their educations have been substandard and blue-collar semi-skilled jobs disappear every day, our tiny unemployment numbers notwithstanding. It's an exploitative machine.

Nymr83 May 27 2018 11:54 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Backup QB sounds like a nice gig. Red jersey in practice, no game time injuries, just hold the clipboard and get paid

41Forever May 27 2018 02:41 PM Re: #Takeaknee

If the NFL cared about ratings they'd reinstate Kaepernick and work with players on protests. I don't think he's been banned, so there's nothing for the league to reinstate. I think he's a free agent. If there was an owner who needed a quarterback and thought that his skills would outweigh the drama he'd bring, he'd be on someone's roster. If he were as good as Cam Newton, he'd be in uniform. This whole issue has been handled poorly by the NFL from the start. From a communications perspective, you want people talking about the good things in your sport. Every time the league itself brings this issue to the forefront, it's a self-inflicted wound. And the NFL has many self-inflicted wounds. How many franchises have moved in the last few years, three? Why would someone in St. Louis, San Diego and soon in Oakland ever tune into an NFL game again?

Edgy MD May 28 2018 01:18 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Nymr83 wrote: dgwphotography wrote: Lefty Specialist wrote: Taking a knee was kind of fading away on its own. In the last week of the regular season only 7 players in the entire NFL took a knee. But this is the very definition of hitting a fly with a sledgehammer; it's now a free-speech issue. This is white billionaires currying favor with Trump. I call bullshit on this. This is billionaires seeing declining ratings and panicking. If their ratings went up last year, this wouldn't have been an issue. agree with DGW. whether or not the knee stuff is the real cause of the decline, it is a perceived cause in the minds of owners Several owners have admitted that they were influenced in instituting this policy out of a fear of the president.

MFS62 May 28 2018 01:56 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Edgy MD wrote: Several owners have admitted that they were influenced in instituting this policy out of a fear of the president. And, I read on a football site (Can't find the link) that several GMs said they felt Kappernick was a good enough quarterback to start on many NFL teams and be on the roster for almost all of them. They said they haven't signed him because of ownership (league?) pressure". Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 28 2018 04:08 PM Re: #Takeaknee

41Forever wrote: If the NFL cared about ratings they'd reinstate Kaepernick and work with players on protests. I don't think he's been banned, so there's nothing for the league to reinstate. I think he's a free agent. If there was an owner who needed a quarterback and thought that his skills would outweigh the drama he'd bring, he'd be on someone's roster. If he were as good as Cam Newton, he'd be in uniform. Eric Reid is one of the top 10 (at worst) strong safeties in the league, and he's getting the same treatment. But, yeah, you're right. This is TOTALLY about performance.

Nymr83 May 28 2018 04:36 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I think that is overrating him, though unlike Kap there is no argument that he should not have a starting job. He sued the league though. And he didnt even wait for the offseason to end and see where the cards all fell - it is likely he killed his own market by suing. I wouldnt want that distraction on my team.

batmagadanleadoff May 28 2018 05:04 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Oh, give me a fucking break already. Eric Reid shouldn't have been an unsigned free agent for more than a week, tops. Probably Kaepernick, too. But (rolls eyes till they spin out of my head) it's only a coincidence that the two most outspoken takeaknee-ers remain unsigned because zip a dee doo dah, they can't possibly be unjustly banned because up with people, there are no bad people in the world and everything is always beautiful.

batmagadanleadoff May 28 2018 05:50 PM Re: #Takeaknee

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Oh, give me a fucking break already. Eric Reid shouldn't have been an unsigned free agent for more than a week, tops. Probably Kaepernick, too. But (rolls eyes till they spin out of my head) it's only a coincidence that the two most outspoken takeaknee-ers remain unsigned because zip a dee doo dah, they can't possibly be unjustly banned because up with people, there are no bad people in the world and everything is always beautiful. Especially when every NFL owner is necessarily super wealthy and likely, a Republican. Probably a mega GOP mega donor, too. And that settles that. If it's Republican, it's good. No need to examine the actual issue critically.

Lefty Specialist May 28 2018 06:53 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Unless there's proof or a paper trail, it's pretty hard to prove something. Major league owners were dumb enough to get caught in the 80's but I'm betting NFL owners are smarter about this.

Frayed Knot May 29 2018 02:13 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist wrote: Unless there's proof or a paper trail, it's pretty hard to prove something. Major league owners were dumb enough to get caught in the 80's but I'm betting NFL owners are smarter about this. MLB got caught after they essentially had every team fail to even go after every other team's FA for three straight seasons. The NFL isn't doing that of course but they have a history of cutting, or at least playing hardball with, guys who were heavily involved in union activity (player reps and so on) so this stuff with Kaepernick and the other guy is nothing new, it's just not nearly as widespread as what MLB pulled and therefore much tougher to prove even though it's clear to almost everyone that Kaepernick is being blackballed. The NFL is used to having the upper hand vs the players and are used to the players not having the unity to form any kind of backlash. There are rumblings about a player boycott until the likes of Kaepernick et al are signed but I don't believe a word of it. I think they miscalculated on this by strong-arming the changes through but I'm less confident that there'll be any counter move. On the Trump thing. The owners aren't necessarily doing Trump's bidding on this but I think they are afraid to a certain degree that he'll whip up his supporters if the NFL failed to take a hard line with the anthem protesters. So rather than sucking up to him, 'running scared' might be a better description. There are folks in Red state America (to paint with a broad brush here) who are turning away from the NFL over these protests. I didn't think that way initially but I've not only heard a number of 2nd & 3rd hand stories about it but even some 1st hand accounts that have made me change my mind. Is that the reason for the ratings decline? Not the sole one, no, but it is A reason. Meanwhile in blue state land (again, big brush here) the suits on Park Ave are worried about a ratings decline driven by NPR listening crowd who no longer watch the sport (or at least claim/brag to no longer watch) due to consequences of the violence, and I don't think it's a coincidence that in the same week they announce this edict against protests they also announced stricter rules on kickoffs which at least give the appearance of making the game less dangerous. Sort of an attempt to head off defections from both ends.

Nymr83 May 29 2018 02:55 AM Re: #Takeaknee

A bit off point, but the kickoff changes arent window dressing, they follow studies that 1) the kickoff is the moat dangerous play 2) it is made less dangerous by eliminating the running start because players will impact at lower speeds 3) the wedge caused a disproportionate number of injuries At some point, you just have to acknowledge that football is dangerous and always will be and most of the safety changes will be things around the edges unless you plan to ban the sport.

Centerfield May 29 2018 03:44 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Frayed Knot wrote: The NFL is used to having the upper hand vs the players and are used to the players not having the unity to form any kind of backlash. There are rumblings about a player boycott until the likes of Kaepernick et al are signed but I don't believe a word of it. I think this is it. NFL owners are rolling in it, and though there is talk of a drop in ratings, etc., I don't believe they actually fear that their investments will turn bad. Or even slow from their current growth. I think they don't like being told what to do and are used to being dickheads about things.

Lefty Specialist May 29 2018 05:19 PM Re: #Takeaknee

I find it hard to believe that some sh*tkicker in Waco isn't going to watch the Cowboys game because some guy took a knee, and that he's going to be more likely to watch now that the negroes have been put in their place. I mean this country's full of racist assholes who'll believe whatever Fox 'News' puts in front of them, but this isn't going to solve the NFL ratings slide.

Frayed Knot May 29 2018 07:16 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist wrote: I find it hard to believe that some sh*tkicker in Waco isn't going to watch the Cowboys game because some guy took a knee, and that he's going to be more likely to watch now that the negroes have been put in their place. I mean this country's full of racist assholes who'll believe whatever Fox 'News' puts in front of them, but this isn't going to solve the NFL ratings slide. What you have to remember is that large swaths of this country grew up on college football and that there are still those who believe it to be the superior product, not in talent necessarily but the game itself and this is even before you toss in the longer history and the greater emotional component. So, for them, abandoning the NFL doesn't mean kissing football goodbye. And I think part of what makes some come to the conclusion that college > pros (this is true in basketball a lot also) is that they love the idea that the inmates have ZERO say in running the asylum -- the coach is God, the players are forced to play for free, they can't transfer without permission (even if they graduate and have remaining eligibility!!), and their scholarships can be pulled at any time like say for on or off-field transgressions ... or if old State U. recruits a better player next year in which case it's 'see ya bub' to last year's prize hog -- as opposed to the pros who at least have some leeway in speaking out. Now toss in the idea that pro players are now even using this frredom and it's enough to make one pine for the glory days of the MLB reserve clause and 5K/year salaries while rooting for leagues where the powers at be simply don't let that happen. Like I said, I didn't believe that protests = defections was a real thing at first but I've heard too many examples to just simply dismiss it. It's not the only factor by a wide margin, but it's A factor and I think the owners were more afraid of doing nothing and giving both Captain Orange and his supporters more room to complain than they were of whatever backlash there would be for not even consulting the player's union and even steamrolling any opposition within their own board room. Keep in mind, I don't think this is a GOOD strategy, but I think that's their reasoning.

41Forever May 29 2018 08:41 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Lefty Specialist wrote: I find it hard to believe that some sh*tkicker in Waco isn't going to watch the Cowboys game because some guy took a knee, and that he's going to be more likely to watch now that the negroes have been put in their place. I mean this country's full of racist assholes who'll believe whatever Fox 'News' puts in front of them, but this isn't going to solve the NFL ratings slide. What is a sh*tkicker?

Benjamin Grimm May 29 2018 08:47 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Merriam-Webster wrote: 1 slang : an unsophisticated person from a rural area 2 slang : a fan or performer of country and western music

41Forever May 29 2018 08:55 PM Re: #Takeaknee

We do a lot of labeling.

Nymr83 May 29 2018 09:36 PM Re: #Takeaknee

41Forever wrote: We do a lot of labeling. labeling - and creating conflict between "labels" - is the foundation of the modern democratic party

MFS62 May 30 2018 01:36 AM Re: #Takeaknee

This was posted today in response to the (so far) 4 page discussion of the issue on a Jets fan site. It is similar to what I have posted here on this issue. I usually avoid topics like this but after reading through the post I thought I would add my opinion. As a Disabled veteran who has lost many friends and family members in defense of this great nation, I can say I have nothing but love and respect for our flag. It holds a very significant meaning for me. When I took the oath to defend the Constitution of the United states, I did not get to pick and choose what articles I would defend and if given that choice, as I bet every veteran woul do , I'd have chosen all of them .The players who are protesting in no way offend me. They are exercising a right that so many Americans gave their lives to defend. I get the NFL is a private buisness, but as long as they are being paid tax dollars for the national anthem presentation , recieving millions of dollars in tax breaks and billions of dollars in public funds for stadiums , the players should be able to kneel during the Anthem. To those who are so offended , I ask : Did you boycott Anheuser-Busch for the cans depicting the Flag , did you ever use those cute flag napkins and paper plates and cups on Memorial day and July 4th? Does the use of the Flag in the NFL logo offend you? All violations of the US Flag code which some one brought up earlier. In fact, the way the flag is displayed at the game for the Anthem is a direct violation of the US flag code as is the use of the flag on NFL uniforms. There have been a few false things reported regarding the new policy as well. Chris Johnson did not vote Yes, the 49s owner didn't obstain. There was never any vote by owners on the new policy. It also was never brought before the NFLPA so it may not even be enforceable. As far as Chris Johnson saying he,the orginization, would absorb the fines, the players are not being fined for kneeling, the orginization is. He simply is supporting his players , (employees) and will not impose fines on the team level. Prior to last season I suggested players and owners lock arms in unity and was laughed at. Told that Kumbaya shit was stupid and would never happen....... It did and not 1 Jet took a knee. IMO players and owners need to come to a resolution, the kneeling had died down and was nearly a non issue until the league brought it back to the forefront and I will not even mention Trump's comments. No matter where you stand on the issue, there is no denying the players have brought awarnessa to their cause which was their intent. Now let's see if the players and owners can come to some arrangements to advance their cause from conversation to action. I immediately posted my agreement and support. Later

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 30 2018 04:01 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Nymr83 wrote: 41Forever wrote: We do a lot of labeling. labeling - and creating conflict between "labels" - is the foundation of the modern democratic party Whereas labeling via implication/dog whistle is more of a Republican thing.. Hey! Look! I can casually cast aspersions, too!

Lefty Specialist May 30 2018 05:43 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Well, shitkicker wasn't popular, so I'll just call him the local Waco bon vivant. He's still not going to watch or not watch a Cowboys game because someone who may or may not be a person of color decided to kneel during the playing of the national anthem. It's like saying that people won't watch the game because the Blue Angels flew over or the cheerleaders outfits are embarrassing to women everywhere. If people want to watch the game, they're going to watch. The other stuff is irrelevant from a ratings perspective. I think this is a terrible idea, but I'm still going to watch the Jets, at least until they fall behind by three touchdowns in the second quarter.

d'Kong76 May 30 2018 06:55 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Shitkicker has a website!

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 30 2018 10:07 PM Re: #Takeaknee

You know who was a shitkicker? Pat Summerall. Sub-50-percent on FGs, career. Also, HoFer George Blanda.

MFS62 May 31 2018 01:01 AM Re: #Takeaknee

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: You know who was a shitkicker? Pat Summerall. Sub-50-percent on FGs, career. Also, HoFer George Blanda. Blanda was 52.4% for his career. He also played quarterback and linebacker. Later

TransMonk Jun 05 2018 01:51 PM Re: #Takeaknee

The president is making feel sympathy for the Philadelphia Eagles. And I have NO LOVE for the Philadelphia Eagles. What is this country coming to?!?

Nymr83 Jun 05 2018 05:26 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Phuck Philly! Best Trump move yet! Oe - but it would have been so much better if he had said "as a New Yorker, those guys arent invited!"

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 05 2018 08:27 PM Re: #Takeaknee

It's reprehensible. What he can't acknowledge is the absence of respect is for and because of him, and has dick to do with a flag, using a football as a political football, what a reprehensible scumbag.

Lefty Specialist Jun 06 2018 12:39 PM Re: #Takeaknee

What's hilarious is that two people took a knee during the White House's "The Eagles Weren't Coming So Humina-Humina Patriotism" event. Plus Dolt 45 forgot the words to 'God Bless America' if he ever knew them in the first place.

Edgy MD Jun 06 2018 01:18 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Yeah, a lot of folks keep saying "forgot," and I'm pretty sure that's not the right term.

seawolf17 Jun 06 2018 01:28 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Knowing the words to the anthem would literally gain him nothing, so he's never going to do it. It's just pathetic and sad.

Nymr83 Jun 06 2018 02:53 PM Re: #Takeaknee

what did he gets wrong?

d'Kong76 Jun 06 2018 02:55 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Nymr83 wrote: what did he gets wrong? He wakes up every morning.

d'Kong76 Jun 06 2018 03:02 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Let me rephrase... [crossout:1k3vv609]He wakes up every morning.[/crossout:1k3vv609] He goes to work every morning.

Nymr83 Jun 06 2018 05:14 PM Re: #Takeaknee

d'Kong76 wrote: Let me rephrase... [crossout]He wakes up every morning.[/crossout] He goes to work every morning. I meant with the Anthem. Pretty sure that is not the case anyway...

Lefty Specialist Jun 06 2018 05:33 PM Re: #Takeaknee

It wasn't the national anthem (he'd forgotten the words to that in a previous appearance). It was the words to 'God Bless America', which is not the national anthem even though the Yankees play it every game during the seventh inning stretch. I bet he knows the Russian national anthem, though.

d'Kong76 Jun 06 2018 05:37 PM Re: #Takeaknee

[youtube:29smxz8t]55ofXWg_yA8[/youtube:29smxz8t]

TransMonk Sep 06 2018 11:15 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Scott Walker going all in against #takeaknee with no less than a dozen tweets today about standing for the anthem as the NFL season begins. He even changed his avatar to an inaccurate bitmoji in front of the flag. [tweet:1icq0lke]https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1037838114696441857[/tweet:1icq0lke] #desperate

Lefty Specialist Sep 06 2018 11:28 PM Re: #Takeaknee

TransMonk wrote: Scott Walker going all in against #takeaknee with no less than a dozen tweets today about standing for the anthem as the NFL season begins. He even changed his avatar to an inaccurate bitmoji in front of the flag. [tweet]https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1037838114696441857[/tweet] #desperate Yes, for god's sake, don't you dare use any of those freedoms that they fought and died for. That would be un-American.

MFS62 Sep 06 2018 11:30 PM Re: #Takeaknee

TransMonk wrote: Scott Walker going all in against #takeaknee with no less than a dozen tweets today about standing for the anthem as the NFL season begins. He even changed his avatar to an inaccurate bitmoji in front of the flag. [tweet]https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1037838114696441857[/tweet] #desperate Memo to Scott. Taking a knee is a protest against the people who deny the rights those Wisconsin men and women (and you too, sir) swore to uphold and protect. Later

Edgy MD Sep 07 2018 02:33 AM Re: #Takeaknee

Show respect for Wisconsin's men and women who fought and died for our country. But, you know, fuck those guys from Delaware.

Fman99 Sep 07 2018 01:50 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Should I know who Scott Walker is? Cause I don't.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 07 2018 01:52 PM Re: #Takeaknee

Governor of Wisconsin. Was an early favorite for GOP Presidential nominee in 2016 but got bounced from the race early.

TransMonk Sep 07 2018 02:37 PM Re: #Takeaknee

He's also up for re-election in November and is trailing the D challenger by a couple of points. He seems to be hitting the flag issue pretty hard rather than touting his accomplishments as governor. Can you guess why? His accomplishments are few and he is hoping divisiveness and the politics of resentment will get him a third term.

Lefty Specialist Sep 07 2018 03:51 PM Re: #Takeaknee

He's the Koch Brothers' cabana boy. That's all you need to know.

Edgy MD Sep 07 2018 05:03 PM Re: #Takeaknee

As the Packers are the only publicly owned team, he can probably take this on directly if he wants. He won't, because (a) he'd lose, and (b) he doesn't care anyway.

MFS62 Sep 09 2018 02:20 PM Re: #Takeaknee

There will be no official NFL policy: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-no- ... 14156.html The owners didn't show the same backbone the protesters do. Later