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Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Edgy MD
Oct 02 2017 12:25 PM

50+ dead. Thousands of lives ruined. An innocent man apparently smeared as the shooter. Here in the United States of Afgunistan.

metirish
Oct 02 2017 12:42 PM
Re: Vegas

I hate to be an asshole but these #PrayFor(Insert Name) hashtags are mindless bolloxs.

Anyway, what would drive a mid 60's man to do this?, is it terrorism?, if not why not?

MFS62
Oct 02 2017 12:50 PM
Re: Vegas

Edgy MD wrote:
50+ dead. Thousands of lives ruined. An innocent man apparently smeared as the shooter. Here in the United States of Afgunistan.

Innocent man?
Not the person originally identified as the shooter - the guy "known to local police"?
Later

Lefty Specialist
Oct 02 2017 12:53 PM
Re: Vegas

The Clark County Sheriff’s Department has identified the shooter as Stephen Paddock, 64. Paddock is a Las Vegas local. Police have released few details, but have said that “numerous firearms” were found in his residence.


It can't be terrorism because he doesn't have an Arabic surname. If he was a local Las Vegas resident named Abdul Fawani, it would already be labeled a terrorist incident. This is just an unfortunate shooting, and this is not the time to discuss control of high-powered weapons that can kill dozens in seconds- out of respect for the victims. (just anticipating the NRA spokesman's statement on the last one).

Edgy MD
Oct 02 2017 01:24 PM
Re: Vegas

MFS62 wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
50+ dead. Thousands of lives ruined. An innocent man apparently smeared as the shooter. Here in the United States of Afgunistan.

Innocent man?
Not the person originally identified as the shooter - the guy "known to local police"?
Later

No, this guy.

There are a lot of frauds, and dopes allowing themselves to be used for misinformation campaigns, frequently launched by foreign agents. And who knows what the truth is, but a lot of bytes are being wasted on lies.

MFS62
Oct 02 2017 02:11 PM
Re: Vegas

Edgy MD wrote:

No, this guy.

It was only a matter of time before the rats would emerge from their holes and try stuff like that.
Later

Chad Ochoseis
Oct 02 2017 02:31 PM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
This is just an unfortunate shooting, and this is not the time to discuss control of high-powered weapons that can kill dozens in seconds- out of respect for the victims. (just anticipating the NRA spokesman's statement on the last one).


Nobody's said anything yet on either side, or if they have, it hasn't been loud enough to hit the internet. Don't know if they're waiting for 9AM Vegas time (not that Vegas runs on a 9-5 schedule) or if we've reached the point where the country is sufficiently bolloxed up that nobody gives a damn anymore.

Latest count is 50 dead, 406 wounded. I have no idea how one causes 456 casualties with a number of guns sufficiently small that they can be transported into a hotel room without raising suspicion. I'm guessing some of the injured and possibly even some of the dead were trampled in the stampede for the exit.

And as I'm writing this, Nick Kristof has just filed an article at the NYT proposing some simple, moderate steps that should be completely uncontroversial. Waiting for the NRA to weigh in by spouting Lefty's anticipated statement more or less verbatim.

Edgy MD
Oct 02 2017 02:47 PM
Re: Vegas

The reason it's considered bad form to talk about gun policy reform in the wake of a mass shooting is that we realize that there is actually consensus.

There actually is and long has been more consensus than is commonly acknowledged, but given a few weeks of remove from a tragedy, the NRA and its allies carefully obscure that.

It's exactly the time to talk about it.

Fman99
Oct 02 2017 03:23 PM
Re: Vegas

Sad beyond words.

seawolf17
Oct 02 2017 04:44 PM
Re: Vegas

Edgy MD wrote:
The reason it's considered bad form to talk about gun policy reform in the wake of a mass shooting is that we realize that there is actually consensus.

There actually is and long has been more consensus than is commonly acknowledged, but given a few weeks of remove from a tragedy, the NRA and its allies carefully obscure that.

It's exactly the time to talk about it.

This, on all counts. But at the same time -- the NRA (effectively) killed twenty kids a few years ago and nothing changed. This won't change anything either, unless we stand up and demand it.

41Forever
Oct 02 2017 05:17 PM
Re: Vegas

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 02 2017 05:43 PM

I'm not one to change my Facebook avatar or use the #pray for hashtag. But I don't object when people do it.

If a person of faith sincerely wishes to encourage people to pray for victims of a tragedy and their families, asking for them to receive comfort and strength, I think that's a nice gesture. If someone says the victims and families are in their thoughts, it means they are not coldly oblivious to the loss of life.

Considering the kind of harsh stuff that tends to fill my Facebook feed -- don't even get me started on the Twitter feed -- I think expressions of kindness and compassion are welcome.

Just my 2 cents.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 02 2017 05:34 PM
Re: Vegas

I think the problem is that the "Second Amendment" people behave as if the only solution to this carnage is thoughts and prayers, rather than more concrete action. Of course, there's no harm in thinking or praying, but it's certainly not going to solve the problem, which is only getting worse the more we think and pray. It's time to legislate.

Ceetar
Oct 02 2017 05:53 PM
Re: Vegas

Well there's a hell of a lot of difference between say a housemom tweeting that and a governor.


look at all these gatherings to get supplies for the hurricane victims. Who's going to set up something to have people voluntarily turn in some guns? Much like they sometimes do the collection of unused prescription meds?

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 02 2017 05:54 PM
Re: Vegas

I think the problem is that the "Second Amendment" people behave as if the only solution to this carnage is thoughts and prayers, rather than more concrete action. Of course, there's no harm in thinking or praying, but it's certainly not going to solve the problem, which is only getting worse the more we think and pray. It's time to legislate.


You want thoughts and prayers? Read Jack Holmes.


When Will Politicians Start Offering More Than Their 'Thoughts and Prayers'?

Legislation is the only thing that will stop this mass shooting epidemic.

By Jack Holmes
News & Politics Sep 29, 2017

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1 ... d-prayers/

Lefty Specialist
Oct 02 2017 07:38 PM
Re: Vegas

One thing that incidents like this always do, is drive gun sales [u:1kxyvfs7]up[/u:1kxyvfs7]. The crazies think that this will be the thing that finally makes the guys in the black helicopters come and grab their guns.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 02 2017 07:44 PM
Re: Vegas

I know. And that's so bizarre. If these people load up on guns after every mass shooting, they probably each have about 400,000 guns in their house.

Centerfield
Oct 02 2017 08:02 PM
Re: Vegas

The whole thing is maddening.

I don't get it. If the right think that gun control is not the answer, then what is the answer?

d'Kong76
Oct 02 2017 08:11 PM
Re: Vegas

Getting back to Vegas, I hope we find out more about this lunatic and
get some insight into his past. What makes a person do something like
this? There has to be a motive or multiple motives. If not, how does
someone so violently deranged slip through the cracks all these years
until he just pops? The mental illness is hard to fathom.

I'll get back to the whole checking into a hotel 3-4 days ago with an
arsenal thing maybe some other time but not today. Are things to the
point where we'll have to be screened to enter a building like when we
enter a stadium or a club?

It's so fucking depressing after a depressing September.

Lefty Specialist
Oct 02 2017 08:15 PM
Re: Vegas

Centerfield wrote:
The whole thing is maddening.

I don't get it. If the right think that gun control is not the answer, then what is the answer?


More guns...... No, seriously. It's why they want to arm grade school teachers and permit guns on college campuses. It's why they want a federal law to override state conceal-carry prohibitions. It's why there's a vote in Congress this week to legalize silencers, for Pete's sake. They want no restrictions of ANY KIND on the sale and use of guns.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 02 2017 08:16 PM
Re: Vegas

How does a giant casino-hotel that no doubt boasts the best spying-on-guests technologies out there let a guy with so many weapons in?

Obviously the laws and the amendments desperately need to change. The very manufacturing of guns probably needs to stop. I'm sick about this

Ashie62
Oct 02 2017 08:18 PM
Re: Vegas

I think I need to read the 'Book of Revelation."

Ceetar
Oct 02 2017 08:24 PM
Re: Vegas

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
How does a giant casino-hotel that no doubt boasts the best spying-on-guests technologies out there let a guy with so many weapons in?

Obviously the laws and the amendments desperately need to change. The very manufacturing of guns probably needs to stop. I'm sick about this


we just approved a kajillion dollar spending spree for the military, so if anything they'll be making MORE guns.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Oct 02 2017 08:32 PM
Re: Vegas

All too aware

Ashie62
Oct 02 2017 08:36 PM
Re: Vegas

I have never understood a person's need to own a gun.

I have fired one and frankly it scared me.

Lefty Specialist
Oct 02 2017 08:43 PM
Re: Vegas

Guess where Sarah gets her talking points from....

White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders dismissed as “premature” suggestions that the mass shooting in Las Vegas Sunday night ought to provide an opportunity to explore legislation to prevent future mass shootings. Sanders said she thought “there will be certainly time for that policy discussion to take place, but that’s not the place that we’re in at this moment. But certainly, I think that there’s a time for that to happen.”

seawolf17
Oct 02 2017 08:54 PM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
Sanders said she thought “there will be certainly time for that policy discussion to take place, but that’s not the place that we’re in at this moment. But certainly, I think that there’s a time for that to happen.”

"Just not right now. We need to wait until it was a BROWN person who did the shooting, then we'll talk about it, but even then we'll make it an immigration issue not a gun control issue because the NRA has a machine gun pointed at my throat literally right now."

Lefty Specialist
Oct 02 2017 10:24 PM
Re: Vegas

As far as Republicans (and to be fair, too many Democrats) are concerned, there's never, ever a good time to talk about gun violence. If the response to killing 20 first-graders in cold blood is to LOOSEN our gun laws, there's really no hope that common sense will prevail.

d'Kong76
Oct 02 2017 10:31 PM
Re: Vegas

This has been a hard day.

Find it hard to believe that the people who prepared for press briefings
today chewed on their response over whether this lunatic was not brown.

OE: I left out without all due respect to Sea.

Edgy MD
Oct 02 2017 10:59 PM
Re: Vegas

You buy 34 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and a carful of ammonium nitrate and you don't get flagged?

Lefty Specialist
Oct 03 2017 12:24 AM
Re: Vegas

Edgy MD wrote:
You buy 34 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and a carful of ammonium nitrate and you don't get flagged?


Ain't America great?

d'Kong76
Oct 03 2017 12:47 AM
Re: Vegas

How can you joke, be politically flip over this?

Lefty Specialist
Oct 03 2017 01:06 AM
Re: Vegas

Well, I'm not joking. We revel in firearms and violence. Gun manufacturing stocks went up today, because they know sales are going to be going up finally. Having a pro-gun Republican as president has been bad for business. That's America. This tragedy doesn't change our trajectory one iota. In a few weeks there'll be new legislation somewhere in America pushing guns even further into our lives whether we want them or not. There are over 11,000 machine guns IN NEVADA ALONE. So lots of people could have done this.

Instead of addressing the guns, though, they'll just ban outdoor concerts on the Strip, I'd imagine. And we'll move on to other things, never really confronting the problem. Ever. And we'll go through this ritual again in a few months or a few weeks.

In fact it feels like I wrote this a few weeks or a few months ago after the last time something like this happened. This shouldn't be shocking; it's an inevitable result of lax laws and glorification of guns. Some crazy fuck out there right now is planning a way to top this.

Mets Willets Point
Oct 03 2017 01:17 AM
Re: Vegas

Edgy MD wrote:
You buy 34 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and a carful of ammonium nitrate and you don't get flagged?


And carry that all into a hotel without being noticed.

d'Kong76
Oct 03 2017 01:21 AM
Re: Vegas

Retract joking. Thank you for spelling that all out. I don't agree
with it all, but it's excellenty put.

Edgy MD
Oct 03 2017 01:34 AM
Re: Vegas

Mets Willets Point wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
You buy 34 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and a carful of ammonium nitrate and you don't get flagged?


And carry that all into a hotel without being noticed.

Well, the one thing we supposedly know about the guy is that he was modestly wealthy gambler. I would guess he knew his way around a hotel lobby, and had the guns stashed in a cartful or two of innocent-looking luggage.

Mets Willets Point
Oct 03 2017 02:15 PM
Re: Vegas

Edgy MD wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
You buy 34 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and a carful of ammonium nitrate and you don't get flagged?


And carry that all into a hotel without being noticed.

Well, the one thing we supposedly know about the guy is that he was modestly wealthy gambler. I would guess he knew his way around a hotel lobby, and had the guns stashed in a cartful or two of innocent-looking luggage.


Probably. I'm not a gun expert, I just know that they are long and heavy, so I just figured they would be hard to disguise when you bring a bunch of them through a hotel lobby.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 03 2017 02:17 PM
Re: Vegas

You don't have to bring them up to the room all at once. He could have made several trips.

d'Kong76
Oct 03 2017 02:25 PM
Re: Vegas

Hell, to be even less suspicious hotel staff may very well have been carting
up the stuff over a period of days in regular looking suitcases or whatever.

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 03 2017 04:41 PM
Re: Vegas

I don't understand why some people are so astounded that the shooter was able to get his weaponry inside of his hotel room. With all of the meticulous planning the shooter obviously engaged in, smuggling his weapons into his room seems like it would've been about the easiest part of his plan. Especially since hotels, particularly luxury hotels, by their nature, treat their guests like royalty, and it's not standard industry practice for hotels to inquire as to what's inside of their guests' luggage anyway.

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 03 2017 05:22 PM
Re: Vegas

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
I don't understand why some people are so astounded that the shooter was able to get his weaponry inside of his hotel room. With all of the meticulous planning the shooter obviously engaged in, smuggling his weapons into his room seems like it would've been about the easiest part of his plan. Especially since hotels, particularly luxury hotels, by their nature, treat their guests like royalty, and it's not standard industry practice for hotels to inquire as to what's inside of their guests' luggage anyway.


Anyways, soon enough, I suppose, they'll probably release for all of us to see, surveillance video of the shooter in the lobby with his luggage.

metsmarathon
Oct 03 2017 07:37 PM
Re: Vegas

all he really needed to do was claim to be a vendor at an upcoming trade show, and request privacy for his suite for the duration of his stay, and he's got a good enough reason not to be asked any further questions about the contents of his bags.

are we going to have to pass through a separate round of homeland defense inspections when we check into our hotels when, instead, we could just make it a wee tad bit harder to buy guns and ammo.

i mean, fuck, i get asked more questions if i'm trying to bring a 8oz tube of toothpaste onto a goddamned airplane than anyone will ever ask some dude buying up machine guns at a gun show.

Lefty Specialist
Oct 04 2017 02:13 PM
Re: Vegas

In 2001, a guy tried (and failed) to bring down an airplane with a shoe bomb. 16 years later we all still have to take our shoes off when we fly. But we can't be bothered to inconvenience gun owners.

The irony is that gun ownership is a right, and gun manufacturers are shielded from being sued when their products, properly used, kill or wound people. And health care for those wounded people is considered a privilege, not a right.

metsmarathon
Oct 04 2017 02:37 PM
Re: Vegas

one more thing. as regards to the official designation of "was this a terrorist act or not?" i have a thought, which is an expansion of the notion going around that criticizes hte media and law enforcement over the whole "of course it wasn't terrorism - he's a white guy - and white guys are 'lone wolf's".

on the one hand, does it matter a whole hell of a lot if we call it terrorism or lone wolfing? i think the answer to that is yes, of course it does, but i'll get back to that i think.

lets get back to the question of, was it terrorism?

and i notice that it's only ever acknowledged to be terrorism when an act is done in service of a cause which we recognize, and particularly one which we disagree with. it fails to recognize that terrorism can be done in service to that which we support. the dude who shot up the republican senate softball team? that dude was a terrorist, whether or not you like the currently ruling party, whether or not you're pro trump or anti. but wait, he acted alone (so far as we know). so did the boston marathon bombers.

what separates one motherfucker form another, here? on the one hand, we recognize the boston marathon bombers as subscribing to an ideology which we already recognize as terroristic. whereas we generally don't consider the senate shooter to be a member of any terrorist group. but why do you need to be part of a terrorist group to cause terrorism? you don't. you can be a terrorist of one, or two, or however many. it shouldn't matter from the definition of things.

what truly matters is that the senate shooter and the boston marathon bombers, and all terrorists, committed their acts in service of an ideology to which they ascribed. doesn't matter what ideology it is. in service of their ideology, they attacked.

but, why did they attack? is there something inherently flawed with the gereral ideology around which they wrapped themselves? inherently no. there is nothing wrong with islam, nor is there anything wrong with liberalism, or anti-trumping. nor is there anything wrong with environmentalism (as much so-called eco-terrorism is performed around the world). at teh root of it all, what it boils down to is that some dude out there (yeah, typically it's dudes, almost exclusively in fact - we should really look into that) is so damaged that he feels the need to share his pain with the world, so the world can feel the way he does, and the only way to make that happen is through violence. maybe he wants the world to think that islam is the one true religion, or maybe he wants the world to think that republicans are ruining the country, or maybe he wants the world to think that trees are awesome and pollution sucks, but really, honestly, it doesn't matter what hte motivation is. someone so damaged is going to find something to hang their hat on in the end. somehting is going to radicalize them, to motivate them. and it shouldn't matter if its a god i don't bow down to, or just the he feels really strongly against puppies.

when it's a motivation we don't agree with, or don't ascribe to, we blame the motivation, and use it as a cudgel against those who happen to follow similar beliefs, no matter how peacably. when we choose not to recognize the motivation as a valid 'cause' for violence, we throw it away and grant the killer 'lone wolf' status.

and this is why it's important to call terrorism when it truly is an act of terrorism. because terrorism is used against people who happen to follow the same beliefs. a muslim shoots people up, all muslims are terrorists in waiting, because islam makes them so. a black guy shoots people up, all black guys are terrorists in waiting, because they hate white guys so much. (maybe he gets labeled as a common criminal instead, or a gangbanger, to further minimize him). a tree hugger shoots people up, and all environmentalists are whack jobs.

yes, in many movements, there are people who actively recruit and radicalize those who are already damaged goods. and that exacerbates the problem. of course. but damaged people will tend to latch onto whatever comes their way, to justify their actions.

i'm rambling.

sorry.

bottom line.

this guy had a reason to shoot up a crowd of people, and unless he did it just to see if he could, or to get his rocks off, he did it for a reason. and that makes him a terrorist. whether or not he had help planning and executing the attack. whether or not he had accomplices. whether or not he was a muslim, or a white dude, or just really hated puppies.

he was a terrorist.

so we can now go out and try to find some sliver of his personality that made him aberrent, some group of outsiders he was a part of, and round them up because they must clearly be part of some terrorist ideology...

or we can maybe start to think of how we can offer help to those among us who are damaged. not only in our own communities, but in hte whole goddamned world itself.

does an individual feel so damaged that he must speak out in violence in order to be heard? lets go help that dude out.

does a whole group of people - a community, or a race, or a region, feel so damaged that they too must speak out in violence in order to be heard? lets help them out too.

because goddamnit, you don't fight terrorism with bullets or bombs, or jails or jdams, or tarrifs or treaties, but with human compassion and decency and love and attention.

you defeat terrorism by sharing the light and pulling people out of darkness, out of the shadows.

if it really is true that people, and not guns, kill people, then is not the only right solution to the problem to help all the people so as not to leave them so bereft of their own humanity, and so numb to the humanity of others, that their only solution is violent?

Edgy MD
Oct 04 2017 02:54 PM
Re: Vegas

I'm not comfortable calling him a terrorist.

He wants to kill people because he wants them dead, he's a killer, a murderer. In this case, a mass-murderer.

If he wants to kill people because he wants everybody else to live in fear for their lives, then he's a terrorist. The terror the violence sows is the goal, beyond the violence itself.

I think the distinction is meaningful, and as we don't yet know a motive, I'm reserving judgment on that label. As a murderer, he was massively effective. As a terrorist — if that's what he is or was — he seems to have been a failure, because we don't know (yet, anyhow) what ideology, group, or idea to cower before.

metsmarathon
Oct 04 2017 03:02 PM
Re: Vegas

eh, that's probably true. but then it falls back on the notion that the only way to be a terrorist is if we recognize (both figuratively and literally) your motivation.

and that seems to be a great benefit to those motivations which we choose not to recognize as legitimate enough to merit terrorism, and an unfortunate burden for those motivations which we do indeed choose to recognize.

Benjamin Grimm
Oct 04 2017 03:05 PM
Re: Vegas

I think I agree with that. Whether or not someone is a terrorist isn't a function of their skin color or religion, but of their motivation. If he just wanted to kill people for the thrill of it, then he's not a terrorist. He's an awful person, but not a terrorist. But if he wanted to make some point, if he wanted to affect the attitude or future behavior of people who witnessed or learned about the killings, then he'd fall into the terrorist category.

Mirriam Webster wrote:
Definition of terrorism

:the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion


(I'm a little surprised by the inclusion of "especially as".)

Edgy MD
Oct 04 2017 03:11 PM
Re: Vegas

metsmarathon wrote:
and that seems to be a great benefit to those motivations which we choose not to recognize as legitimate enough to merit terrorism, and an unfortunate burden for those motivations which we do indeed choose to recognize.

If it makes a difference, I'm perfectly happy to label as terrorists folks whose values I am otherwise sympathetic toward.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 06 2017 10:16 AM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
Well, I'm not joking. We revel in firearms and violence. Gun manufacturing stocks went up today, because they know sales are going to be going up finally. Having a pro-gun Republican as president has been bad for business. That's America. This tragedy doesn't change our trajectory one iota. In a few weeks there'll be new legislation somewhere in America pushing guns even further into our lives whether we want them or not. There are over 11,000 machine guns IN NEVADA ALONE. So lots of people could have done this.

Instead of addressing the guns, though, they'll just ban outdoor concerts on the Strip, I'd imagine. And we'll move on to other things, never really confronting the problem. Ever. And we'll go through this ritual again in a few months or a few weeks.

In fact it feels like I wrote this a few weeks or a few months ago after the last time something like this happened. This shouldn't be shocking; it's an inevitable result of lax laws and glorification of guns. Some crazy fuck out there right now is planning a way to top this.



Lather.
Rinse.
Repeat.

Fman99
Nov 06 2017 12:58 PM
Re: Vegas

Ugh, again. Breaks my heart.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 06 2017 01:48 PM
Re: Vegas

Presidend F'n Moron said this wasn't about guns. Because I'm sure a guy with a knife would have been just as deadly.

President F'n Moron said this is about mental illness. But he signed a law lifting a restriction on mentally ill people buying guns. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tr ... al-n727221

Perhaps to be safe Texas should ban church services. That's more likely than any restrictions on guns.

MFS62
Nov 06 2017 02:38 PM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:

Perhaps to be safe Texas should ban church services. That's more likely than any restrictions on guns.


I think you're right about restrictions in Texas, according to their Attorney General:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-massac ... 22029.html

Later

Centerfield
Nov 06 2017 03:19 PM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
Presidend F'n Moron said this wasn't about guns. Because I'm sure a guy with a knife would have been just as deadly.

President F'n Moron said this is about mental illness. But he signed a law lifting a restriction on mentally ill people buying guns. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tr ... al-n727221

Perhaps to be safe Texas should ban church services. That's more likely than any restrictions on guns.


It makes you want to scream. I can't believe how stupid this country is. Actually, I can't believe it. I just can't accept it.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 06 2017 05:57 PM
Re: Vegas

The only way to prevent gun violence is more guns, everywhere. What Would Jesus Pack?

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton (R) views the deadliest mass shooting in his state’s history as evidence that more church parishioners should carry guns for self-protection.

“This is going to happen again,” Paxton told Fox News on Sunday, since “you can’t necessarily keep guns out of the hands of people who are going to violate the law.”


This is why countries the world over think we're crazy.

Edgy MD
Nov 06 2017 11:35 PM
Re: Vegas

The New Yorker's cartoon of the day. Might as well be cartoon of the year.

[fimg=600]https://media.newyorker.com/cartoons/5a008acf8c4c543db0962cce/master/w_1298,c_limit/DC110617.jpg[/fimg]

41Forever
Nov 07 2017 12:59 AM
Re: Vegas

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2017 01:27 AM

There were actually more people killed by guns in Chicago last weekend.

What do you think is a realistic way to address this problem?

Banning all guns isn’t realistic. But is there something that can actually happen that you think would make our streets and communities safer?

d'Kong76
Nov 07 2017 01:23 AM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
What Would Jesus Pack?

Wow, just wow.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 07 2017 01:26 AM
Re: Vegas

Nothing is realistic these days. If nothing happened after Sandy Hook, blowing away a few dozen people in a church won't make a difference. Remember all the talk of banning 'bump stocks' a few weeks ago? That's faded away as the NRA always know these things do

Their argument is always, "criminals will always get guns, so laws are useless".

This issue was truly lost when a law was passed preventing people from suing gun manufacturers for the harm their product causes. If your shampoo causes your hair to fall out, you can sue, but if a gun kills your kid, that's just tough luck. Thoughts and prayers.

There may have been more people killed in Chicago last weekend, but I bet they all weren't killed in less than thirty seconds. The first thing we need to do is reinstate the assault weapon ban that was in effect until 2004, because there's no earthly reason for a non-military person to own these kinds of weapons. Real background checks, where the information is kept on file. Gun shows have to do background checks, too.

Yes, I know, not realistic. Arming 18-month-old babies is probably more likely.

41Forever
Nov 07 2017 01:33 AM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
Nothing is realistic these days. If nothing happened after Sandy Hook, blowing away a few dozen people in a church won't make a difference. Remember all the talk of banning 'bump stocks' a few weeks ago? That's faded away as the NRA always know these things do

Their argument is always, "criminals will always get guns, so laws are useless".

This issue was truly lost when a law was passed preventing people from suing gun manufacturers for the harm their product causes. If your shampoo causes your hair to fall out, you can sue, but if a gun kills your kid, that's just tough luck. Thoughts and prayers.

There may have been more people killed in Chicago last weekend, but I bet they all weren't killed in less than thirty seconds. The first thing we need to do is reinstate the assault weapon ban that was in effect until 2004, because there's no earthly reason for a non-military person to own these kinds of weapons. Real background checks, where the information is kept on file. Gun shows have to do background checks, too.

Yes, I know, not realistic. Arming 18-month-old babies is probably more likely.


The lawsuit attempt is just a backdoor way to put the gun manufacturers out of business. The shampoo analogy doesn't hold up because a shampoo doing that is probably defective.

I don't have a problem with the assault rifle ban. But I suspect few, if any, of the people killed in Chicago were killed with an assault rife. That's just an assumption. I haven't researched it. I don't have a problem with the background checks, either.

I do think there is a mental wellness crisis that we need to address. How many people saw the signs before this guy snapped? How about the guy in Vegas? How do we get to the root of the problem?

But, and again, I'm making broad assumptions here, the violence in Chicago isn't linked to mental wellness.

I think the availability of guns is a problem. But I think there are other problems that wouldn't go away simply by removing guns. We need to address them all.

Nymr83
Nov 07 2017 01:42 AM
Re: Vegas

Yeah the shampoo analogy is terrible. You cant sue the shampoo company when someone else goes out and buys shampoo and then involuntarily poors it down your throat.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 07 2017 01:46 AM
Re: Vegas

Putting the manufacturer of a harmful product out of business isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Also, not letting mentally ill people and those on the terrorist watch list buy guns would be helpful. Not letting a person convicted of domestic assault buy a gun would be a good thing. Here I speak from personal experience as a woman we knew was shot and killed by her abusive ex-husband. In front of their kids.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 07 2017 01:54 AM
Re: Vegas

And I'm okay with this as well. It's not a solution, but guns impose a cost on society and like no other product, they are completely immune from liability.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... ms_of.html

d'Kong76
Nov 07 2017 01:56 AM
Re: Vegas

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2017 01:57 AM

We'll back burner the Jesus thing for now.

It's hard to get a gun; I can't legally get a handgun in NYS and have friends
in similar situations. If people can get guns (and worse, automatic weapons
in other states) then those states need to change the laws. The federal gov't
can barely run the country at this point, enforcing a ban on guns would go as
well as a ban on heroin.

That NRA cartoon is doubly humorous. I'm sure they think they are in charge
and would like to see their flag fly higher. But really, it's just not the case at all.

41Forever
Nov 07 2017 01:57 AM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:


Putting the manufacturer of a harmful product out of business isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Also, not letting mentally ill people and those on the terrorist watch list buy guns would be helpful. Not letting a person convicted of domestic assault buy a gun would be a good thing. Here I speak from personal experience as a woman we knew was shot and killed by her abusive ex-husband. In front of their kids.


Would I also be able to sue Jack Daniels and Coors if a loved one is killed by a drunk driver? In theory I could sue a bar that served an intoxicated person the drinks. Why not the manufacturer?

I don't have a problem with either of your other proposed restrictions. And what happened to your acquaintance is absolutely terrible. Domestic violence is another problem we need to confront. Not knowing any of the details there, but I wonder if there is a mental wellness issue there.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm looking for real solutions.

Centerfield
Nov 07 2017 03:43 AM
Re: Vegas

I am too. And that's what's so frustrating about the Republicans here. If gun control is not the answer, then what the fuck is?

Ceetar
Nov 07 2017 03:51 AM
Re: Vegas

These ARE all real solutions. They might not make the problem go away completely, but they'll all help. And time will help with it, as we get rid of more guns, prevent people from getting guns, and overall less people will have weapons in general.

There's just so much evidence out there that guns are bad. I definitely move more and more towards the 'ban them all' end of the spectrum the more stuff like this happens. I definitely think there's zero need for guns in public. In your own house, even though that's ALSO shown to be dangerous, is your own thing. As long as it's not an assault rifle/semi-automatic killing machine. Transport it to the range, or the hunting grounds if you want to play with it.

I realize this is unrealistic, but I can dream.. But it's hard when people push fake stories about roving bands of criminals that just break into your house to kill you and take all your stuff because it's easier than if they case your house until you leave.

regular "trade in your arms" buy backs. Also stop selling military grade equipment to the police. They're not the army.

Just less. less guns as a total volume thing. That's the bare minimum. Let's get the volume going down instead of up.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 07 2017 04:17 AM
Re: Vegas

[youtube:3szqcm3r]-lDb0Dn8OXE[/youtube:3szqcm3r]

41Forever
Nov 07 2017 04:19 AM
Re: Vegas

Centerfield wrote:
I am too. And that's what's so frustrating about the Republicans here. If gun control is not the answer, then what the fuck is?


What do you consider to be gun control?

d'Kong76
Nov 07 2017 04:20 AM
Re: Vegas

Classic, big AitF fan.

Edgy MD
Nov 07 2017 04:25 AM
Re: Vegas

41Forever wrote:
Banning all guns isn’t realistic. But is there something that can actually happen that you think would make our streets and communities safer?

Banning all guns is certainly doable. But no, that's not what I advocate for.

Sensible regulation. It's easy if folks are willing to stand up to the NRA. But they're not. Our horrible, horrible president declares this a mental health issue. But he signed legislation repealing a regulation intended to add the names of folks certified as mentally ill to the database for gun purchase background checks.

That's one sensible regulation. Tossed in the trash for political favor.

But if you really ask what to do, we have every other wealthy, industrial, developed nation to choose as a model. Pick one. Any one. Australia, Finland, Korea, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Netherlands, Japan. The notion that this is somehow hopeless is a national sin.

Nymr83
Nov 07 2017 05:08 AM
Re: Vegas

the Texas church shooter should have been banned from buying guns - except that the FUCKING AIR FORCE failed to report his domestic violence conviction that got him jail time and a bad conduct discharge to the FBI, as required by law and Pentagon policy.

No law can work when it isn't enforced.

Nymr83
Nov 07 2017 05:09 AM
Re: Vegas

41Forever wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:


Putting the manufacturer of a harmful product out of business isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Also, not letting mentally ill people and those on the terrorist watch list buy guns would be helpful. Not letting a person convicted of domestic assault buy a gun would be a good thing. Here I speak from personal experience as a woman we knew was shot and killed by her abusive ex-husband. In front of their kids.


Would I also be able to sue Jack Daniels and Coors if a loved one is killed by a drunk driver? In theory I could sue a bar that served an intoxicated person the drinks. Why not the manufacturer?

I don't have a problem with either of your other proposed restrictions. And what happened to your acquaintance is absolutely terrible. Domestic violence is another problem we need to confront. Not knowing any of the details there, but I wonder if there is a mental wellness issue there.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm looking for real solutions.



Suing Coors is a much better analogy than the others being thrown around. The drunk driver took a legal product that can be very dangerous when not used responsibly and killed someone with it. So does anyone think Coors should get sued?

Lefty Specialist
Nov 07 2017 01:09 PM
Re: Vegas

41Forever wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:


Putting the manufacturer of a harmful product out of business isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Also, not letting mentally ill people and those on the terrorist watch list buy guns would be helpful. Not letting a person convicted of domestic assault buy a gun would be a good thing. Here I speak from personal experience as a woman we knew was shot and killed by her abusive ex-husband. In front of their kids.


Would I also be able to sue Jack Daniels and Coors if a loved one is killed by a drunk driver? In theory I could sue a bar that served an intoxicated person the drinks. Why not the manufacturer?

I don't have a problem with either of your other proposed restrictions. And what happened to your acquaintance is absolutely terrible. Domestic violence is another problem we need to confront. Not knowing any of the details there, but I wonder if there is a mental wellness issue there.

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm looking for real solutions.


If you read the Slate piece I linked, you'd see there is a BIG distinction between Jack Daniels and guns.

Jack Daniels, precisely because they fear legal responsibility, puts 'please drink responsibly' in every ad. So does Coors. Ever car commercial that shows something slightly dangerous says, 'Professional driver on closed course. Do not attempt.' They're not doing it for the hell of it. They're doing it to mitigate their liability.

Gun manufacturers have been relieved of that burden. They fear no consequences because there are no consequences.

The gun manufacturers saw what happened to the cigarette industry (another product that kills when used as intended), and headed it off at the pass. Now fewer people smoke, and fewer die of lung cancer. Cigarettes are actually addicting, and we're breaking the cycle, slowly but surely. Guns aren't addicting (unless you have a fetish), but we seem to be going in the opposite direction.

I'm not trying to be confrontational either. I wish there were real solutions because these events are sickening, and we're only a few weeks away from the next one.

Ceetar
Nov 07 2017 02:14 PM
Re: Vegas

Exactly what lefty said. Imagine instead of "I need a gun at home to protect from imaginary invaders" you heard "Just having a gun in the house makes it more likely someone in your family will die from a gunshot" every time guns were discussed/purchased/advertised.

And even just that. Just putting some form of that phrase on all gun purchases/media/etc, would be at least something more than we're doing now.

Edgy MD
Nov 07 2017 02:26 PM
Re: Vegas

Nymr83 wrote:
the Texas church shooter should have been banned from buying guns - except that the FUCKING AIR FORCE failed to report his domestic violence conviction that got him jail time and a bad conduct discharge to the FBI, as required by law and Pentagon policy.

No law can work when it isn't enforced.

Sure they can. When there's a more thoughtful and intentional and secure web of policies and more redundancy and accountability built into the infrastructure that enforces the laws.

But there isn't. Because, among other things, the regulation of the sale and distribution of firearms is unpopular and viewed as odious. In much of the country, any politician who stands up and demands a better infrastructure and accountability is signing his or her retirement papers.

The Air Force failed, but the guy had a long history of red flags. And state and federal laws didn't even allow those flags to go up. Beyond that, he fired a version of the AR-15, an assault weapon that has been used in many or most of our recent mass shootings. Sandy Hook Elementary School. Pulse nightclub. Umpqua Community College. Las Vegas, Aurora, San Bernadino. This gun was mostly banned from 1994 to 2004. But we lifted the ban.

So yeah, the Air Force failed. But so did we all. And we failed with intent.

metsmarathon
Nov 07 2017 02:50 PM
Re: Vegas

Nymr83 wrote:
the Texas church shooter should have been banned from buying guns - except that the FUCKING AIR FORCE failed to report his domestic violence conviction that got him jail time and a bad conduct discharge to the FBI, as required by law and Pentagon policy.

No law can work when it isn't enforced.


fair point. doing a better job of restricting access to guns for people who should not be permitted to have them is very important. let's do more of that.

and while we're at it, maybe restricting the types of guns available would limit the amount of death one can readily deal out, when one decides to take that opportunity.

gun control isn't easy, but neither is anything else that's important. you can start by taking small steps, to make the bigger problems get smaller.

41forever wrote:
There were actually more people killed by guns in Chicago last weekend.


that's actually not true. in november, to date, there have been 9 gun homicides in chicago, and 50 total shootings.

which isn't really a great thing, to be honest. it'd be really really good if that number were zero on both accounts.

but here's the thing. most of the gun violence in chicago is handguns. it a bigly problem. but you know, there's an 80% survival rate of chicago shootings.

if all those shootings were done with high powered rifles, all those shootings would end with a lot more caskets.

and while attempting to solve the problem of military-style "assault rifles" (whatever that means) may not do a damned thing to curb gun violence in chicago, it may do something to help reduce the prevalence and magnitude of these mass murder massacres.

and maybe chicago can be solved, if you think that it's a problem worth solving, with socioeconomic parity and economic mobility. because there can be different solutions to different parts of the problem. and none of that will do a damned thing about the scourge of gun-suicides, but maybe improved access to, and destigmatization of, mental health care can tackle that one. and if we want toddlers to stop pulling triggers, we can start to recognize that guns are instruments of death whose operators should be better trained and qualified in the safe use, storage, and operation thereof. you know - a well-trained militia, and all of that.

it's hard, but doable. just like anything worth doing.

no, there's no easy way to solve it all. but isn't that really just the cry of someone who doesn't actually want to solve the problem?

"oh, there's too many dishes in the sink - how will i ever clean them all?"
"oh, how can i clean my room when there's dirty clothes all over, and toys on the carpet, and my books are on the bed? i cannot do a thing - it's just too haaaard"

would you accept that noise from your children?

and yet, you accept it from your leaders...? and yourself?

Lefty Specialist
Nov 07 2017 03:42 PM
Re: Vegas

When someone says that a particular law wouldn't have prevented this mass shooting, my response is, 'Well, it might prevent the next one.'

I get it, guns are cool. Cigarettes used to be cool, too. But people saw the consequences of smoking them, and banded together to pass laws that restricted their use. Cigarettes haven't been banned, and no one's going to break into your house to take them away. But I love being able to go into a restaurant without breathing someone else's smoke. It's taken a long time, but no one wants to go back to smoking on airlines or in the workplace, for instance.

Something similar needs to happen with guns. Just like the guy who still smokes a couple packs a day has to go stand outside in the freezing cold to smoke his butt, military-style gun owners need to be told that their weapons are no longer cool. It starts with education. My son was hammered by anti-smoking messages growing up (some of which were paid for by the cigarette companies as part of their settlement). He's never smoked and none of his friends do either. Smoking's not eliminated, but it will be eventually. And we've survived just fine as a society.

Somebody needs to stand up and say 'Enough Already', and it needs to be a movement. There are more households that don't own a gun than households that do. But all the energy right now is on the 'they're gonna take your guns!' side.

It's not just electing Democrats (Republicans are pretty much a lost cause right now). It's about electing people who have the guts to demand reform and no fear of the gun lobby. There aren't enough of those kind of people in our government right now. Maybe some day. A lot more innocent people will die needlessly in the interim, though.

d'Kong76
Nov 07 2017 04:38 PM
Re: Vegas

We've been over this a dozen times and I know no one agrees with me but if
I wanted take out twenty people at my local church there's no gun law that is
going to stop me from getting one. If I don't go to Dicks or Walmart, I'd buy one
from one from someone's trunk down at the riverfront. Trying to prohibit things
like drugs, prostitution and gambling just shifts the purveyor to organized crime
and other criminals. Ya'll can dream of a gun-free America, but it's not coming
anytime soon.

Edgy MD
Nov 07 2017 04:52 PM
Re: Vegas

Illegal guns that appear in trunks down at the waterfront start their lives as legal ones. Illegal guns in New York start as legal ones in West Virginia. Illegal guns in Illinois start as legal ones in Kentucky.

Licensing and regulation undercuts illegal distribution. When one guy can't buy 30 assault weapons legally, he can't sell 29 illegally.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 07 2017 04:54 PM
Re: Vegas

Yes there are vast and uneresolved underlying problems -- a rotten healthcare and mental healthcare; careless enforcement of stupid laws; generations of economic disadvantages and a subsequent breakdown of families and faith in the system; and a mostly IMO culture of violence encouraged by fighting wars all the time, but guns make tragedies out of those situations way too easy.

I'd certainly make automatic rifle way the hell illegal to own, and then to manufacture; I'd tax the fuck out of gun makers and bullet makers; I'd make gun licenses a pain in the ass to get and surprisingly expensive; I'd require technologies on new guns that would make them inoperable by those not licsenced to carry them.

I'd slash military budgets to the bone and give that money instead to programs to help poor people advance and repair the culture; to better health care for people; to better salaries for cops and teachers, and I'd take my chances.

d'Kong76
Nov 07 2017 05:00 PM
Re: Vegas

I'm not pro-assault weapons. I don't know anyone who is.

41Forever
Nov 07 2017 05:03 PM
Re: Vegas

I agree that addressing the root causes of violence would be more beneficial than trying to take away the tools used in violent acts.

But I don't think the answer is paying for that by weakening the national defense.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 07 2017 05:16 PM
Re: Vegas

#Lunchbucket4Prez

cooby
Nov 07 2017 05:20 PM
Re: Vegas

Don't forget how many rounds you see/hear per night on tv or film.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 07 2017 05:29 PM
Re: Vegas

Edgy MD wrote:
41Forever wrote:
Banning all guns isn’t realistic. But is there something that can actually happen that you think would make our streets and communities safer?



But if you really ask what to do, we have every other wealthy, industrial, developed nation to choose as a model. Pick one. Any one. Australia, Finland, Korea, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Netherlands, Japan. The notion that this is somehow hopeless is a national sin.


There's your answer. Just look to, I dunno, the rest of the world. Only in America where the politicians sold out to the NRA for suitcases stuffed with hundred dollar bills and an ideologically conservative and partisan Supreme Court hijacked the Second Amendment in Heller and severely limited the kinds of restrictions states can enact to regulate guns. Follow the money because it's always about the money.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 07 2017 06:10 PM
Re: Vegas

d'Kong76 wrote:
We've been over this a dozen times and I know no one agrees with me but if
I wanted take out twenty people at my local church there's no gun law that is
going to stop me from getting one. If I don't go to Dicks or Walmart, I'd buy one
from one from someone's trunk down at the riverfront. Trying to prohibit things
like drugs, prostitution and gambling just shifts the purveyor to organized crime
and other criminals. Ya'll can dream of a gun-free America, but it's not coming
anytime soon.


I'm not saying make guns illegal, just make them harder to get. When an Attorney General of a large US state recommends that more people should arm themselves when attending church, something's gone terribly off the rails.

Yes, banning certain types of guns will lead to a thriving criminal enterprise. Well, there are lots of things that are banned and police work to stop them. Most cops would feel a lot better if military-style weapons were less numerous.

And yes, other first-world countries have figured out how to do this. Take Japan for instance. The number of gun related homicides in 2014 was 6. In a population of 127 million.

Ceetar
Nov 07 2017 06:54 PM
Re: Vegas

41Forever wrote:
I agree that addressing the root causes of violence would be more beneficial than trying to take away the tools used in violent acts.

But I don't think the answer is paying for that by weakening the national defense.


I mean, we'd be in real danger if it took us 15 seconds to completely annihilate the 'enemy' rather than 10?

Or if we reduced the number of soldiers coming back with say PTSD and inadequate mental health care to treat it?

Or we had less soldiers that needed guns so made less guns so sold less military suplus weapons that make it back onto our streets?

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 07 2017 07:17 PM
Re: Vegas

I think at some level there's a connection between living in a country that solves all its problems with violence or the threat of it, and the prevalence of its citizens who feel the same. People are shamed for even suggesting they cut military spending anymore, that treasonous dumbass in the white house is proposing to bump that up significantly, while taking away everything that might address the root causes I mentioned.

This murdering freak was mad at his mother in law and yet it was okay to take out 30 others at the same time because he had no problem getting the tools to do so. His country has been at war for half his life.

Centerfield
Nov 07 2017 08:10 PM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
When someone says that a particular law wouldn't have prevented this mass shooting, my response is, 'Well, it might prevent the next one.'

I get it, guns are cool. Cigarettes used to be cool, too. But people saw the consequences of smoking them, and banded together to pass laws that restricted their use. Cigarettes haven't been banned, and no one's going to break into your house to take them away. But I love being able to go into a restaurant without breathing someone else's smoke. It's taken a long time, but no one wants to go back to smoking on airlines or in the workplace, for instance.

Something similar needs to happen with guns. Just like the guy who still smokes a couple packs a day has to go stand outside in the freezing cold to smoke his butt, military-style gun owners need to be told that their weapons are no longer cool. It starts with education. My son was hammered by anti-smoking messages growing up (some of which were paid for by the cigarette companies as part of their settlement). He's never smoked and none of his friends do either. Smoking's not eliminated, but it will be eventually. And we've survived just fine as a society.

Somebody needs to stand up and say 'Enough Already', and it needs to be a movement. There are more households that don't own a gun than households that do. But all the energy right now is on the 'they're gonna take your guns!' side.

It's not just electing Democrats (Republicans are pretty much a lost cause right now). It's about electing people who have the guts to demand reform and no fear of the gun lobby. There aren't enough of those kind of people in our government right now. Maybe some day. A lot more innocent people will die needlessly in the interim, though.


Yeah. This. A thousand times.

But if Sandy Hook didn't do it, will it ever? One can only hope that future generations will be wiser than our's.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 07 2017 08:16 PM
Re: Vegas

Unfortunately, we don't seem to be currently trending towards greater wisdom.

And you're absolutely right about Sandy Hook. That was even too horrific for the most extreme gun nuts. That's why they had to pretend that it was a hoax.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 07 2017 09:14 PM
Re: Vegas

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Unfortunately, we don't seem to be currently trending towards greater wisdom.

And you're absolutely right about Sandy Hook. That was even too horrific for the most extreme gun nuts. That's why they had to pretend that it was a hoax.



Yes, the Sandy Hook 'truthers' are the most despicable human beings possible. They still torture these poor people five years after they lost their 6-year-old kids, by saying it never happened. It's the only way they can reconcile their insane beliefs.

But we could have a Sandy Hook every day for a year and I'd still be doubtful we could get meaningful gun control passed.

d'Kong76
Nov 07 2017 09:43 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

I don't want to google and visit a site that may spew such a thing, but there
are actually people/groups out there disputing the veracity of Sandy Hook?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 07 2017 09:49 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Yes, sadly, there are such sites. I've read stories where the parents of the slain children get phone calls from people saying "Your child never existed! It's all a hoax."

What a world we live in.

Edgy MD
Nov 07 2017 09:51 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Plenty. From the very beginning.

There were a pair of make-believe reporters who crashed the initial press conference given by the Sandy Hook police chief who demanded he acknowledge it was "false flag attack." If a look could kill, his would have atomized the two of them.

d'Kong76
Nov 07 2017 10:51 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

I guess the brainwashed sicko-dom knows no bounds. I can't imagine
what would make people believe that, and if they don't believe it I can't
imagine what would make them propagate such hateful nonsense.

Frayed Knot
Nov 07 2017 11:56 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Of all the conspiracy theories out there, that one (Sandy Hook) always struck me as not just the cruelest but also the weirdest. Both because it's not clear what the point of it all was (a staged "event" so
as to push for tougher gun control? OK sure, but why this one and not any of dozens of others not to mention the logistics necessary to pull a stunt that huge off) or how the inventors of it could possibly
think they could sell their version beyond the inner circle who cooked it up in the face of so much obvious evidence and so many eyewitnesses.

But conspiracy theories are tough to explain and even tougher to reason as while there are folks who can't understand why some believe what they believe, those same folks often can't understand how
others DON'T believe in their chosen conspiracy(s). And then the introduction of additional evidence that contradicts their claim just hardens their view as it "proves" to them how deep the conspiracy
still goes*.



* he says as the anniversary of the Kennedy assassination comes up and another recent round of released "hidden" files proves not a damn thing that the tinfoil hat crowd claims as self-evident

Edgy MD
Nov 08 2017 12:34 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Oh, I think they've sold it beyond an inner circle. I mean, even plenty folks who don't believe it, kinda sorta wanna believe it because they resent that such incidents serve as an obvious pretext for re-examing our gun policies.

Alex Jones is an incredibly useful idiot.

And maybe it's because I'm too close to the situation, but to me, the Comet Pizza conspiracy theory was even kookier.

I'm frankly not sure why Alex Jones isn't in jail. Or at least bankrupt seven times over from civil slander suits.

d'Kong76
Nov 08 2017 12:42 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

I had to google Alex Jones, guess I'm just not tuned into certain things
as much as some here. I'm sorry.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 08 2017 01:04 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

d'Kong76 wrote:
I had to google Alex Jones, guess I'm just not tuned into certain things
as much as some here. I'm sorry.


Millions of people listen to him. There's a special circle of hell with his name on it. He's a virulent symbol of what's wrong with America today.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 08 2017 01:10 AM
Re: Vegas

41Forever wrote:
I agree that addressing the root causes of violence would be more beneficial than trying to take away the tools used in violent acts.

But I don't think the answer is paying for that by weakening the national defense.


Still scratching my head over this one. The military can have all the hardware they want. But military weapons in civilian hands is how you get a Sutherland Springs, where virtually everyone in that church was either killed or wounded.

cooby
Nov 08 2017 01:16 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

d'Kong76 wrote:
I had to google Alex Jones, guess I'm just not tuned into certain things
as much as some here. I'm sorry.



Me too...what? is it a woman or a man? :-O
(head hurts)
(want to be canadian)

Edgy MD
Nov 08 2017 01:28 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

You're not missing anything of substance. He's a fabulist masquerading as a journalist/news analyst. Millions listen to him and every word out of his mouth and on his website (mostly conspiracy theories) is impassioned bullshit.

His damage to the republic is immense.

cooby
Nov 08 2017 01:30 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

So this guy was at large from a mental home?

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 08 2017 02:41 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

cooby wrote:
So this guy was at large from a mental home?


Alex Jones? Likely.

metsmarathon
Nov 08 2017 04:39 AM
Re: Vegas

Ceetar wrote:
41Forever wrote:
I agree that addressing the root causes of violence would be more beneficial than trying to take away the tools used in violent acts.

But I don't think the answer is paying for that by weakening the national defense.


I mean, we'd be in real danger if it took us 15 seconds to completely annihilate the 'enemy' rather than 10?

Or if we reduced the number of soldiers coming back with say PTSD and inadequate mental health care to treat it?

Or we had less soldiers that needed guns so made less guns so sold less military suplus weapons that make it back onto our streets?


Just as a point of fact, the AR problem is not a result of military surplus. (The up-arming of our police, on the other hand, is). The gun manufacturers are supplementing their coffers (and likely reducing the cost of military hardware) by leveraging their military designs and selling “civilian versions” of the same. Cutting the military budget wouldn’t affect the availability of these weapons, except in that they would become somewhat more expensive to purchase, but likely not by a real whole lot.

I’m a big fan of the military and it’s hardware. It belongs out of the hands of the populace.

Ceetar
Nov 08 2017 02:13 PM
Re: Vegas

metsmarathon wrote:


I’m a big fan of the military and it’s hardware. It belongs out of the hands of the populace.



I'm not.

And I wasn't speaking specifically to the issues but more to the 'reduce the total number of guns that exist, period'

41Forever
Nov 08 2017 02:42 PM
Re: Vegas

Ceetar wrote:
metsmarathon wrote:


I’m a big fan of the military and it’s hardware. It belongs out of the hands of the populace.



I'm not.

And I wasn't speaking specifically to the issues but more to the 'reduce the total number of guns that exist, period'


I mean, we'd be in real danger if it took us 15 seconds to completely annihilate the 'enemy' rather than 10?


I don't think that's how it works. We don't use the weapons that "annihilate" and I hope we never do.

When Theodore Roosevelt said "speak softly, but carry a big stick" he was saying that the bad guys are less likely to attack you if they know you are strong. Weakening our military makes us less safe.

Count me as a fan of the military and the heroes serving in it.

Ceetar
Nov 08 2017 02:57 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

spending less on the military does not mean we're less safe. Having a smaller stick does not mean we're less safe. Hell, Teddy Roosevelt didn't even really comprehend machine gun war, never mind current politics.

And you/he made the same point I did. "he was saying that the bad guys are less likely to attack you if they know you are strong."

Yes. we're strong. But to take it out of annihilation terms (I'm sure these nukes are just for show. we wouldn't use them. no way) The 'enemy' is not really going to be more likely to attack us if we're only 10, or 50 times stronger than them instead of 200 times.

We're not less safe, and some would argue more, if we pull back and scale back troops in the Middle East.

We're not less safe if we spend fewer billions of dollars on fighter jets that don't work.


The military size is absurd. This isn't an argument about big military or small military, or respecting the citizens that serve in it. The actual citizens are cogs and I can't figure out why suggesting that I think we should use less of them as such disrespects them. No, that's not true. I can figure it out, because if dropped the illusion that everything the military does is 'keeping us safe' and 'protecting our freedom' it makes it feel defensive and necessary and not aggressive and painfully wasteful of human life. Suggesting that "well uh, maybe we shouldn't do that?" pokes a hole in that narrative.

Edgy MD
Nov 08 2017 03:00 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Congratulations on getting that Roosevelt quote right.

But since our military budget is comically larger than anyone else's, one can advocated for freezing or even reducing it, without really running counter to the big stick ideology.

And we can honor the speak softly half of that ideology a little better. A lot better, in fact.

And, since much of that bloated budget is largely a product of our commitment to multiple mutual defense pacts, we can acknowledge that the president advocating for aggressive military budget increases, at the same time he's calling for retreat from our mutual defense alliances is shameful exploitation of xenophobia/political grandstanding.

seawolf17
Nov 08 2017 03:02 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

The whole military-industrial complex is incredible. It's jobs for millions of people, both making planes and missiles and things and then flying and dropping said missiles. And I will *never* understand how sending more troops into -- wherever, pick the country -- makes us safer. If another country sent thousands of troops here and started "helping" us, that would probably make me angrier, not more friendly.

Our president "joked" that he could walk out into the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and his followers wouldn't care. And he was *RIGHT*.

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I think at some level there's a connection between living in a country that solves all its problems with violence or the threat of it, and the prevalence of its citizens who feel the same. People are shamed for even suggesting they cut military spending anymore, that treasonous dumbass in the white house is proposing to bump that up significantly, while taking away everything that might address the root causes I mentioned.

This murdering freak was mad at his mother in law and yet it was okay to take out 30 others at the same time because he had no problem getting the tools to do so. His country has been at war for half his life.

All of this, really. This shit just *doesn't happen* in other countries, and yet we make it seem like *they're* the outliers because of a law that's 240 years old.

Edgy MD
Nov 08 2017 03:19 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Well, sending troops into Japan and South Korea can be said to have helped make us safer, and helped make those countries terrifically prosperous. Germany also.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 08 2017 03:54 PM
Re: Vegas

41Forever wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
metsmarathon wrote:


I’m a big fan of the military and it’s hardware. It belongs out of the hands of the populace.



I'm not.

And I wasn't speaking specifically to the issues but more to the 'reduce the total number of guns that exist, period'


I mean, we'd be in real danger if it took us 15 seconds to completely annihilate the 'enemy' rather than 10?


I don't think that's how it works. We don't use the weapons that "annihilate" and I hope we never do.

When Theodore Roosevelt said "speak softly, but carry a big stick" he was saying that the bad guys are less likely to attack you if they know you are strong. Weakening our military makes us less safe.

Count me as a fan of the military and the heroes serving in it.


(Scratches head harder)

No one's talking about weakening the national defense by stopping Billy Joe from buying a Bushmaster AR-15. It's about protecting the rest of us from Billy Joe if he gets mad and goes to the local gun show.

And the Japanese might quibble about that 'Weapons that Annihilate' part.

41Forever
Nov 08 2017 04:38 PM
Re: Vegas

Lefty Specialist wrote:
41Forever wrote:
Ceetar wrote:
metsmarathon wrote:


I’m a big fan of the military and it’s hardware. It belongs out of the hands of the populace.



I'm not.

And I wasn't speaking specifically to the issues but more to the 'reduce the total number of guns that exist, period'


I mean, we'd be in real danger if it took us 15 seconds to completely annihilate the 'enemy' rather than 10?


I don't think that's how it works. We don't use the weapons that "annihilate" and I hope we never do.

When Theodore Roosevelt said "speak softly, but carry a big stick" he was saying that the bad guys are less likely to attack you if they know you are strong. Weakening our military makes us less safe.

Count me as a fan of the military and the heroes serving in it.


(Scratches head harder)

No one's talking about weakening the national defense by stopping Billy Joe from buying a Bushmaster AR-15. It's about protecting the rest of us from Billy Joe if he gets mad and goes to the local gun show.

And the Japanese might quibble about that 'Weapons that Annihilate' part.


Was responding to Lunchbucket's suggestion of cutting the military budget to the bone.

d'Kong76
Nov 08 2017 05:12 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

cooby wrote:
So this guy was at large from a mental home?

Not at large, but it was reported that he once escaped from a mental hospital (2012?)
Lotta people dropped the ball on this nut job, sad side stories to a horrifically sadder story.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 09 2017 01:38 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Gee, must be something in the water in Michigan:

LANSING — The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday allowing the concealed carry of handguns in places that have traditionally been off limits to guns, such as schools, churches, day care centers, bars and stadiums.

The three-bill package, which now moves to the state House, passed the Senate in 25-12 votes, over strong objections from Democrats, one day after it cleared a Senate committee.


Excellent timing!

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 09 2017 02:05 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Maybe "to the bone" was overstating it but we are comically out of proportion to the rest of the world already in defense spending and behind in services to make things livable for people at home. And "I support our brave men and women in uniform" is the kind of response to suggestions we reorder priorities in our very screwed up country that keeps us careening backwards. One can support the military and still reel in its budget I think.

cooby
Nov 09 2017 02:32 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

I listen to radio classics on XM and it's incredible what people did in the 1940s at home to support the troops. Ration stamps, tin and rubber drives, war bonds, etc but my favorite is the ad to give up Vitalis because the boys on the front needed it

My mom recently found some old ration stamps and showed them to me; they are something

Nymr83
Nov 09 2017 02:33 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Gee, must be something in the water in Michigan:

LANSING — The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday allowing the concealed carry of handguns in places that have traditionally been off limits to guns, such as schools, churches, day care centers, bars and stadiums.

The three-bill package, which now moves to the state House, passed the Senate in 25-12 votes, over strong objections from Democrats, one day after it cleared a Senate committee.


Excellent timing!


BARS?? there is a great combination...

Edgy MD
Nov 09 2017 02:36 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

The discretionary spending that we can cut is certainly not money that makes life safer and more dignified for military personnel.

And the while veterans programs often get tied into military spending bills (to help put them over the top), the budgets are mostly discrete, so cutting military spending shouldn't be read as cutting veterans programs, but actually as shifting funds towards veterans programs. And away from, perhaps, aircraft programs that get our boy-president over-excited.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 09 2017 02:57 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Tens of billions could be cut from the national defense budget without affecting national security one iota.

The problem is that the defense budget is considered a jobs program for every congressman and Senator. That's why there are plants all over the country making weapons and aircraft we don't particularly need. Democrats and Republicans alike feed at the trough of military spending.

They next real war won't be fought with fixed armies and tanks; it'll be fought in cyberspace. To be fair, the military's taking that piece pretty seriously, far more seriously than President Donald FM Trump is.

Edgy MD
Nov 09 2017 03:03 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

The president understands cyberspace to be the place where tweets go.

d'Kong76
Nov 09 2017 03:08 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Lefty Specialist wrote:
LANSING — The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday allowing the concealed carry of handguns in places that have traditionally been off limits to guns, such as schools, churches, day care centers, bars and stadiums.

Closer blows a save? Pop a cap in his ass!
Crazy.

41Forever
Nov 09 2017 05:18 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Gee, must be something in the water in Michigan:

LANSING — The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday allowing the concealed carry of handguns in places that have traditionally been off limits to guns, such as schools, churches, day care centers, bars and stadiums.

The three-bill package, which now moves to the state House, passed the Senate in 25-12 votes, over strong objections from Democrats, one day after it cleared a Senate committee.


Excellent timing!


The Governor vetoed a similar bill when it last came before him, and indicated this morning that his feelings haven't changed.

[url]http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/gov_snyder_vetoed_concealed_gu.html#incart_river_home

d'Kong76
Nov 09 2017 05:34 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

41Forever wrote:
The Governor vetoed a similar bill when it last came before him, and indicated this morning that his feelings haven't changed.

Lol, such a mensch!

metsmarathon
Nov 09 2017 05:44 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Edgy MD wrote:
Congratulations on getting that Roosevelt quote right.

But since our military budget is comically larger than anyone else's, one can advocated for freezing or even reducing it, without really running counter to the big stick ideology.

And we can honor the speak softly half of that ideology a little better. A lot better, in fact.

And, since much of that bloated budget is largely a product of our commitment to multiple mutual defense pacts, we can acknowledge that the president advocating for aggressive military budget increases, at the same time he's calling for retreat from our mutual defense alliances is shameful exploitation of xenophobia/political grandstanding.




So, not that I want to get this topic too much farther off from where it started, but we are not now 10 or 50 or 100 times more capable than our likely adversaries. We have great advantages to be sure, but the gap is closing. Our spending is so great because we are leading the war efforts on multiple fronts (an argument can certainly be made that this should be curtailed greatly to be sure). But we also spebd a lot of money training our troops and paying for them. Ours is (I think) the best trained military for a reason, and it’s not cheap to do so.

Our military r&d and procurement is expensive in part due to high cost of manufacturing here in the us. And we have very high standards of reliability and safety, shelf life, and operational environments. Reducing collateral damage leads to more expensive engineering challenges as well.

We cannot cut our manufacturing and development costs to the level of our rivals without tremendously affecting the safety and readiness of our soldiers.

Unlike our chief rivals, our soldiers and equipment is not expendable. We are not set up to churn through soldiers bodies to solve our problems

It would be ideal if another nation were as willing as ours to step up into the fray. It would also be advantageous if our own nation would not be so ready to manufacture a fray to step into, if couse.

Yes some weapons programs are bad ideas or wander astray of their goals. But the bulk of our arsenal is not a wasteful glory grab for politicians. (Well, ok. For the army it’s far more true. We don’t get the aircraft carriers and stealth jets.)

The other benefit of military spending is that it does keep the money in-country, for non-deployment apending of course. And that money helped to ensure that we have a strong and vibrant manufacturing base throughout the nation, which keeps people employed and allows for consumer products to be more readily built here instead of overseas.

Also we develop cool shit. Like gps, and the internet.

That said, less war is more gooder. We should do less war.

41Forever
Nov 09 2017 05:50 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

d'Kong76 wrote:
41Forever wrote:
The Governor vetoed a similar bill when it last came before him, and indicated this morning that his feelings haven't changed.

Lol, such a mensch!


LOL? Did you want him to sign the bill?

d'Kong76
Nov 09 2017 06:00 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Lol'n at your rushing to his defense, but it's not as funny if I have to explain it. :-)

41Forever
Nov 09 2017 06:02 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Lol'n at your rushing to his defense, but it's not as funny if I have to explain it. :-)


Ah, I'm the mensch. Now I get it.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 09 2017 06:55 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Gee, must be something in the water in Michigan:

LANSING — The Michigan Senate approved legislation Wednesday allowing the concealed carry of handguns in places that have traditionally been off limits to guns, such as schools, churches, day care centers, bars and stadiums.

The three-bill package, which now moves to the state House, passed the Senate in 25-12 votes, over strong objections from Democrats, one day after it cleared a Senate committee.


Excellent timing!


The Governor vetoed a similar bill when it last came before him, and indicated this morning that his feelings haven't changed.

[url]http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/gov_snyder_vetoed_concealed_gu.html#incart_river_home


Well, jeez, let's hope so.

We went to Turner Field a while ago and the guy in front of us on line said 'I have a carry permit' to the security guy, then proceeded to pull out one big-ass gun. I instantly regretted wearing Mets gear, and we were looking over our shoulders the whole time as the Mets built up an early lead on their way to an 11-1 victory.

Edgy MD
Nov 09 2017 07:11 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

WTF are we lining up to get through the security gate when some Cobb County cowboy can just waltz right in with a heater?

My dad applied for a civilian license upon his retirement from the police force. A few of the neighbors had to do fill out forms testifying that he wasn't a terrifying maniac. He wasn't looking to pack a cannon, but he wanted to hang onto his service revolver. He had carried the same piece for so long, it had kind of become part of his identity.

But after a few years he let the license expire and turned in the piece. He was retired. He wanted to drink and to scream at his useless teenage/young-adult kids, and he knew these weren't activities that went well with packing a sidearm. (I imagine he had second thoughts when he became a security director at Yeshiva U., though.)

The idea of of a guy with a semi-automatic pistol at a ballgame, where beer is served by the quart under the Georgia sun? I'd gtf out of there, pronto. Go hang out in the no-gun zone.

You know, fuck it, why doesn't baseball sieze the moment and ban civilians with firearms from all games, license or no license? You're a guest of of Major League Baseball. You can lose the gun or you can go home. Here, talk to our head of security, Shelly Duncan.

d'Kong76
Nov 09 2017 07:21 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

So, to be clear, you're against taking out Familia if he blows a save?

Seriously though, what is Citi Field's policy on civilians packing? I'd like to guess
that you can't bring a weapon into the ballpark but interested to have that verified.

Edgy MD
Nov 09 2017 07:25 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Prohibited Items - Items larger than 16"x16"x8", coolers (hard-sided), cans, glass bottles, beverage containers, commercial audio/video equipment, alcoholic beverages, illegal substances, laser pointers, noisemaking devices, fireworks, animals (except for assistive purposes) and weapons.


I'm assuming that includes licensed guns and hoping I'm right.

Ceetar
Nov 09 2017 07:28 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

some concerts at Citi Field even specifically included nunchucks on the not allowed list.

d'Kong76
Nov 09 2017 07:28 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

I couldn't bring in a Leatherman Micro on my key chain once to Shea, had to bring
it back to the car. Thankfully I didn't take the train that game or I'd be out $25.

Frayed Knot
Nov 09 2017 08:04 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

I listen to radio classics on XM and it's incredible what people did in the 1940s at home to support the troops. Ration stamps, tin and rubber drives, war bonds, etc


That was all more to support the government (aka: raise money) than it was any kind of goodwill gesture towards 'the boys'.
You basically couldn't buy tires, cars, butter, sugar, etc. (or just in tiny quantities) even if you wanted to.
"Victory Gardens" in your backyard weren't merely a nice gesture, vegetables were simply scarce due to the gov't sending them all overseas, so if you wanted 'em ...

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 14 2017 07:04 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Another day in Second Amendment Land:

The Associated Press wrote:
RANCHO TEHAMA, Calif. — At least three people are dead, including a suspected shooter, and multiple students are being treated after reported shootings at several scenes including Rancho Tehama Elementary School in Northern California, according to a Tehama County sheriff's official.

Centerfield
Nov 14 2017 08:41 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Another elementary school.

Just numbing.

metsmarathon
Nov 14 2017 08:48 PM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

never let an unarmed child get in the way of your 2nd amendment rights.

Edgy MD
Nov 16 2017 04:33 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

Our mass shootings are so devoid of meaning at this point that our hollow man of a president just tweeted his comforting words, by copying and pasting his message from the previous shooting, AND NOT BOTHERING TO EDIT THE NAME OF THE LOCATION.

Nymr83
Nov 16 2017 04:42 AM
Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs

i think in some way this is one of the most damning Trump stories yet, because unlike all the stories that show how he doesn't know what he is doing, this one actually shows he doesn't care!