Master Index of Archived Threads
Vegas/Sutherland Springs
Edgy MD Oct 02 2017 12:25 PM |
50+ dead. Thousands of lives ruined. An innocent man apparently smeared as the shooter. Here in the United States of Afgunistan.
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metirish Oct 02 2017 12:42 PM Re: Vegas |
I hate to be an asshole but these #PrayFor(Insert Name) hashtags are mindless bolloxs.
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MFS62 Oct 02 2017 12:50 PM Re: Vegas |
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Innocent man? Not the person originally identified as the shooter - the guy "known to local police"? Later
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Lefty Specialist Oct 02 2017 12:53 PM Re: Vegas |
The Clark County Sheriff’s Department has identified the shooter as Stephen Paddock, 64. Paddock is a Las Vegas local. Police have released few details, but have said that “numerous firearms” were found in his residence.
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Edgy MD Oct 02 2017 01:24 PM Re: Vegas |
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No, this guy. There are a lot of frauds, and dopes allowing themselves to be used for misinformation campaigns, frequently launched by foreign agents. And who knows what the truth is, but a lot of bytes are being wasted on lies.
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MFS62 Oct 02 2017 02:11 PM Re: Vegas |
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It was only a matter of time before the rats would emerge from their holes and try stuff like that. Later
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Chad Ochoseis Oct 02 2017 02:31 PM Re: Vegas |
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Nobody's said anything yet on either side, or if they have, it hasn't been loud enough to hit the internet. Don't know if they're waiting for 9AM Vegas time (not that Vegas runs on a 9-5 schedule) or if we've reached the point where the country is sufficiently bolloxed up that nobody gives a damn anymore. Latest count is 50 dead, 406 wounded. I have no idea how one causes 456 casualties with a number of guns sufficiently small that they can be transported into a hotel room without raising suspicion. I'm guessing some of the injured and possibly even some of the dead were trampled in the stampede for the exit. And as I'm writing this, Nick Kristof has just filed an article at the NYT proposing some simple, moderate steps that should be completely uncontroversial. Waiting for the NRA to weigh in by spouting Lefty's anticipated statement more or less verbatim.
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Edgy MD Oct 02 2017 02:47 PM Re: Vegas |
The reason it's considered bad form to talk about gun policy reform in the wake of a mass shooting is that we realize that there is actually consensus.
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Fman99 Oct 02 2017 03:23 PM Re: Vegas |
Sad beyond words.
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seawolf17 Oct 02 2017 04:44 PM Re: Vegas |
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This, on all counts. But at the same time -- the NRA (effectively) killed twenty kids a few years ago and nothing changed. This won't change anything either, unless we stand up and demand it.
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41Forever Oct 02 2017 05:17 PM Re: Vegas Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 02 2017 05:43 PM |
I'm not one to change my Facebook avatar or use the #pray for hashtag. But I don't object when people do it.
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Benjamin Grimm Oct 02 2017 05:34 PM Re: Vegas |
I think the problem is that the "Second Amendment" people behave as if the only solution to this carnage is thoughts and prayers, rather than more concrete action. Of course, there's no harm in thinking or praying, but it's certainly not going to solve the problem, which is only getting worse the more we think and pray. It's time to legislate.
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Ceetar Oct 02 2017 05:53 PM Re: Vegas |
Well there's a hell of a lot of difference between say a housemom tweeting that and a governor.
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batmagadanleadoff Oct 02 2017 05:54 PM Re: Vegas |
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You want thoughts and prayers? Read Jack Holmes. When Will Politicians Start Offering More Than Their 'Thoughts and Prayers'? Legislation is the only thing that will stop this mass shooting epidemic. By Jack Holmes News & Politics Sep 29, 2017 http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a1 ... d-prayers/
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Lefty Specialist Oct 02 2017 07:38 PM Re: Vegas |
One thing that incidents like this always do, is drive gun sales [u:1kxyvfs7]up[/u:1kxyvfs7]. The crazies think that this will be the thing that finally makes the guys in the black helicopters come and grab their guns.
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Benjamin Grimm Oct 02 2017 07:44 PM Re: Vegas |
I know. And that's so bizarre. If these people load up on guns after every mass shooting, they probably each have about 400,000 guns in their house.
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Centerfield Oct 02 2017 08:02 PM Re: Vegas |
The whole thing is maddening.
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d'Kong76 Oct 02 2017 08:11 PM Re: Vegas |
Getting back to Vegas, I hope we find out more about this lunatic and
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Lefty Specialist Oct 02 2017 08:15 PM Re: Vegas |
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More guns...... No, seriously. It's why they want to arm grade school teachers and permit guns on college campuses. It's why they want a federal law to override state conceal-carry prohibitions. It's why there's a vote in Congress this week to legalize silencers, for Pete's sake. They want no restrictions of ANY KIND on the sale and use of guns.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 02 2017 08:16 PM Re: Vegas |
How does a giant casino-hotel that no doubt boasts the best spying-on-guests technologies out there let a guy with so many weapons in?
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Ashie62 Oct 02 2017 08:18 PM Re: Vegas |
I think I need to read the 'Book of Revelation."
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Ceetar Oct 02 2017 08:24 PM Re: Vegas |
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we just approved a kajillion dollar spending spree for the military, so if anything they'll be making MORE guns.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 02 2017 08:32 PM Re: Vegas |
All too aware
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Ashie62 Oct 02 2017 08:36 PM Re: Vegas |
I have never understood a person's need to own a gun.
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Lefty Specialist Oct 02 2017 08:43 PM Re: Vegas |
Guess where Sarah gets her talking points from....
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seawolf17 Oct 02 2017 08:54 PM Re: Vegas |
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"Just not right now. We need to wait until it was a BROWN person who did the shooting, then we'll talk about it, but even then we'll make it an immigration issue not a gun control issue because the NRA has a machine gun pointed at my throat literally right now."
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Lefty Specialist Oct 02 2017 10:24 PM Re: Vegas |
As far as Republicans (and to be fair, too many Democrats) are concerned, there's never, ever a good time to talk about gun violence. If the response to killing 20 first-graders in cold blood is to LOOSEN our gun laws, there's really no hope that common sense will prevail.
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d'Kong76 Oct 02 2017 10:31 PM Re: Vegas |
This has been a hard day.
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Edgy MD Oct 02 2017 10:59 PM Re: Vegas |
You buy 34 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and a carful of ammonium nitrate and you don't get flagged?
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Lefty Specialist Oct 03 2017 12:24 AM Re: Vegas |
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Ain't America great?
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d'Kong76 Oct 03 2017 12:47 AM Re: Vegas |
How can you joke, be politically flip over this?
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Lefty Specialist Oct 03 2017 01:06 AM Re: Vegas |
Well, I'm not joking. We revel in firearms and violence. Gun manufacturing stocks went up today, because they know sales are going to be going up finally. Having a pro-gun Republican as president has been bad for business. That's America. This tragedy doesn't change our trajectory one iota. In a few weeks there'll be new legislation somewhere in America pushing guns even further into our lives whether we want them or not. There are over 11,000 machine guns IN NEVADA ALONE. So lots of people could have done this.
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Mets Willets Point Oct 03 2017 01:17 AM Re: Vegas |
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And carry that all into a hotel without being noticed.
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d'Kong76 Oct 03 2017 01:21 AM Re: Vegas |
Retract joking. Thank you for spelling that all out. I don't agree
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Edgy MD Oct 03 2017 01:34 AM Re: Vegas |
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Well, the one thing we supposedly know about the guy is that he was modestly wealthy gambler. I would guess he knew his way around a hotel lobby, and had the guns stashed in a cartful or two of innocent-looking luggage.
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Mets Willets Point Oct 03 2017 02:15 PM Re: Vegas |
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Probably. I'm not a gun expert, I just know that they are long and heavy, so I just figured they would be hard to disguise when you bring a bunch of them through a hotel lobby.
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Benjamin Grimm Oct 03 2017 02:17 PM Re: Vegas |
You don't have to bring them up to the room all at once. He could have made several trips.
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d'Kong76 Oct 03 2017 02:25 PM Re: Vegas |
Hell, to be even less suspicious hotel staff may very well have been carting
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batmagadanleadoff Oct 03 2017 04:41 PM Re: Vegas |
I don't understand why some people are so astounded that the shooter was able to get his weaponry inside of his hotel room. With all of the meticulous planning the shooter obviously engaged in, smuggling his weapons into his room seems like it would've been about the easiest part of his plan. Especially since hotels, particularly luxury hotels, by their nature, treat their guests like royalty, and it's not standard industry practice for hotels to inquire as to what's inside of their guests' luggage anyway.
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batmagadanleadoff Oct 03 2017 05:22 PM Re: Vegas |
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Anyways, soon enough, I suppose, they'll probably release for all of us to see, surveillance video of the shooter in the lobby with his luggage.
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metsmarathon Oct 03 2017 07:37 PM Re: Vegas |
all he really needed to do was claim to be a vendor at an upcoming trade show, and request privacy for his suite for the duration of his stay, and he's got a good enough reason not to be asked any further questions about the contents of his bags.
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Lefty Specialist Oct 04 2017 02:13 PM Re: Vegas |
In 2001, a guy tried (and failed) to bring down an airplane with a shoe bomb. 16 years later we all still have to take our shoes off when we fly. But we can't be bothered to inconvenience gun owners.
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metsmarathon Oct 04 2017 02:37 PM Re: Vegas |
one more thing. as regards to the official designation of "was this a terrorist act or not?" i have a thought, which is an expansion of the notion going around that criticizes hte media and law enforcement over the whole "of course it wasn't terrorism - he's a white guy - and white guys are 'lone wolf's".
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Edgy MD Oct 04 2017 02:54 PM Re: Vegas |
I'm not comfortable calling him a terrorist.
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metsmarathon Oct 04 2017 03:02 PM Re: Vegas |
eh, that's probably true. but then it falls back on the notion that the only way to be a terrorist is if we recognize (both figuratively and literally) your motivation.
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Benjamin Grimm Oct 04 2017 03:05 PM Re: Vegas |
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I think I agree with that. Whether or not someone is a terrorist isn't a function of their skin color or religion, but of their motivation. If he just wanted to kill people for the thrill of it, then he's not a terrorist. He's an awful person, but not a terrorist. But if he wanted to make some point, if he wanted to affect the attitude or future behavior of people who witnessed or learned about the killings, then he'd fall into the terrorist category.
(I'm a little surprised by the inclusion of "especially as".)
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Edgy MD Oct 04 2017 03:11 PM Re: Vegas |
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If it makes a difference, I'm perfectly happy to label as terrorists folks whose values I am otherwise sympathetic toward.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 06 2017 10:16 AM Re: Vegas |
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Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
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Fman99 Nov 06 2017 12:58 PM Re: Vegas |
Ugh, again. Breaks my heart.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 06 2017 01:48 PM Re: Vegas |
Presidend F'n Moron said this wasn't about guns. Because I'm sure a guy with a knife would have been just as deadly.
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MFS62 Nov 06 2017 02:38 PM Re: Vegas |
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I think you're right about restrictions in Texas, according to their Attorney General: https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-massac ... 22029.html Later
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Centerfield Nov 06 2017 03:19 PM Re: Vegas |
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It makes you want to scream. I can't believe how stupid this country is. Actually, I can't believe it. I just can't accept it.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 06 2017 05:57 PM Re: Vegas |
The only way to prevent gun violence is more guns, everywhere. What Would Jesus Pack?
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Edgy MD Nov 06 2017 11:35 PM Re: Vegas |
The New Yorker's cartoon of the day. Might as well be cartoon of the year.
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41Forever Nov 07 2017 12:59 AM Re: Vegas Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2017 01:27 AM |
There were actually more people killed by guns in Chicago last weekend.
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d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 01:23 AM Re: Vegas |
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Wow, just wow.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 07 2017 01:26 AM Re: Vegas |
Nothing is realistic these days. If nothing happened after Sandy Hook, blowing away a few dozen people in a church won't make a difference. Remember all the talk of banning 'bump stocks' a few weeks ago? That's faded away as the NRA always know these things do
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41Forever Nov 07 2017 01:33 AM Re: Vegas |
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The lawsuit attempt is just a backdoor way to put the gun manufacturers out of business. The shampoo analogy doesn't hold up because a shampoo doing that is probably defective. I don't have a problem with the assault rifle ban. But I suspect few, if any, of the people killed in Chicago were killed with an assault rife. That's just an assumption. I haven't researched it. I don't have a problem with the background checks, either. I do think there is a mental wellness crisis that we need to address. How many people saw the signs before this guy snapped? How about the guy in Vegas? How do we get to the root of the problem? But, and again, I'm making broad assumptions here, the violence in Chicago isn't linked to mental wellness. I think the availability of guns is a problem. But I think there are other problems that wouldn't go away simply by removing guns. We need to address them all.
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Nymr83 Nov 07 2017 01:42 AM Re: Vegas |
Yeah the shampoo analogy is terrible. You cant sue the shampoo company when someone else goes out and buys shampoo and then involuntarily poors it down your throat.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 07 2017 01:46 AM Re: Vegas |
Putting the manufacturer of a harmful product out of business isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 07 2017 01:54 AM Re: Vegas |
And I'm okay with this as well. It's not a solution, but guns impose a cost on society and like no other product, they are completely immune from liability.
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d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 01:56 AM Re: Vegas Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2017 01:57 AM |
We'll back burner the Jesus thing for now.
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41Forever Nov 07 2017 01:57 AM Re: Vegas |
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Would I also be able to sue Jack Daniels and Coors if a loved one is killed by a drunk driver? In theory I could sue a bar that served an intoxicated person the drinks. Why not the manufacturer? I don't have a problem with either of your other proposed restrictions. And what happened to your acquaintance is absolutely terrible. Domestic violence is another problem we need to confront. Not knowing any of the details there, but I wonder if there is a mental wellness issue there. I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm looking for real solutions.
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Centerfield Nov 07 2017 03:43 AM Re: Vegas |
I am too. And that's what's so frustrating about the Republicans here. If gun control is not the answer, then what the fuck is?
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Ceetar Nov 07 2017 03:51 AM Re: Vegas |
These ARE all real solutions. They might not make the problem go away completely, but they'll all help. And time will help with it, as we get rid of more guns, prevent people from getting guns, and overall less people will have weapons in general.
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batmagadanleadoff Nov 07 2017 04:17 AM Re: Vegas |
[youtube:3szqcm3r]-lDb0Dn8OXE[/youtube:3szqcm3r]
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41Forever Nov 07 2017 04:19 AM Re: Vegas |
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What do you consider to be gun control?
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d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 04:20 AM Re: Vegas |
Classic, big AitF fan.
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Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 04:25 AM Re: Vegas |
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Banning all guns is certainly doable. But no, that's not what I advocate for. Sensible regulation. It's easy if folks are willing to stand up to the NRA. But they're not. Our horrible, horrible president declares this a mental health issue. But he signed legislation repealing a regulation intended to add the names of folks certified as mentally ill to the database for gun purchase background checks. That's one sensible regulation. Tossed in the trash for political favor. But if you really ask what to do, we have every other wealthy, industrial, developed nation to choose as a model. Pick one. Any one. Australia, Finland, Korea, Republic of Ireland, Slovakia, Netherlands, Japan. The notion that this is somehow hopeless is a national sin.
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Nymr83 Nov 07 2017 05:08 AM Re: Vegas |
the Texas church shooter should have been banned from buying guns - except that the FUCKING AIR FORCE failed to report his domestic violence conviction that got him jail time and a bad conduct discharge to the FBI, as required by law and Pentagon policy.
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Nymr83 Nov 07 2017 05:09 AM Re: Vegas |
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Suing Coors is a much better analogy than the others being thrown around. The drunk driver took a legal product that can be very dangerous when not used responsibly and killed someone with it. So does anyone think Coors should get sued?
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Lefty Specialist Nov 07 2017 01:09 PM Re: Vegas |
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If you read the Slate piece I linked, you'd see there is a BIG distinction between Jack Daniels and guns. Jack Daniels, precisely because they fear legal responsibility, puts 'please drink responsibly' in every ad. So does Coors. Ever car commercial that shows something slightly dangerous says, 'Professional driver on closed course. Do not attempt.' They're not doing it for the hell of it. They're doing it to mitigate their liability. Gun manufacturers have been relieved of that burden. They fear no consequences because there are no consequences. The gun manufacturers saw what happened to the cigarette industry (another product that kills when used as intended), and headed it off at the pass. Now fewer people smoke, and fewer die of lung cancer. Cigarettes are actually addicting, and we're breaking the cycle, slowly but surely. Guns aren't addicting (unless you have a fetish), but we seem to be going in the opposite direction. I'm not trying to be confrontational either. I wish there were real solutions because these events are sickening, and we're only a few weeks away from the next one.
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Ceetar Nov 07 2017 02:14 PM Re: Vegas |
Exactly what lefty said. Imagine instead of "I need a gun at home to protect from imaginary invaders" you heard "Just having a gun in the house makes it more likely someone in your family will die from a gunshot" every time guns were discussed/purchased/advertised.
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Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 02:26 PM Re: Vegas |
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Sure they can. When there's a more thoughtful and intentional and secure web of policies and more redundancy and accountability built into the infrastructure that enforces the laws. But there isn't. Because, among other things, the regulation of the sale and distribution of firearms is unpopular and viewed as odious. In much of the country, any politician who stands up and demands a better infrastructure and accountability is signing his or her retirement papers. The Air Force failed, but the guy had a long history of red flags. And state and federal laws didn't even allow those flags to go up. Beyond that, he fired a version of the AR-15, an assault weapon that has been used in many or most of our recent mass shootings. Sandy Hook Elementary School. Pulse nightclub. Umpqua Community College. Las Vegas, Aurora, San Bernadino. This gun was mostly banned from 1994 to 2004. But we lifted the ban. So yeah, the Air Force failed. But so did we all. And we failed with intent.
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metsmarathon Nov 07 2017 02:50 PM Re: Vegas |
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fair point. doing a better job of restricting access to guns for people who should not be permitted to have them is very important. let's do more of that. and while we're at it, maybe restricting the types of guns available would limit the amount of death one can readily deal out, when one decides to take that opportunity. gun control isn't easy, but neither is anything else that's important. you can start by taking small steps, to make the bigger problems get smaller.
that's actually not true. in november, to date, there have been 9 gun homicides in chicago, and 50 total shootings. which isn't really a great thing, to be honest. it'd be really really good if that number were zero on both accounts. but here's the thing. most of the gun violence in chicago is handguns. it a bigly problem. but you know, there's an 80% survival rate of chicago shootings. if all those shootings were done with high powered rifles, all those shootings would end with a lot more caskets. and while attempting to solve the problem of military-style "assault rifles" (whatever that means) may not do a damned thing to curb gun violence in chicago, it may do something to help reduce the prevalence and magnitude of these mass murder massacres. and maybe chicago can be solved, if you think that it's a problem worth solving, with socioeconomic parity and economic mobility. because there can be different solutions to different parts of the problem. and none of that will do a damned thing about the scourge of gun-suicides, but maybe improved access to, and destigmatization of, mental health care can tackle that one. and if we want toddlers to stop pulling triggers, we can start to recognize that guns are instruments of death whose operators should be better trained and qualified in the safe use, storage, and operation thereof. you know - a well-trained militia, and all of that. it's hard, but doable. just like anything worth doing. no, there's no easy way to solve it all. but isn't that really just the cry of someone who doesn't actually want to solve the problem? "oh, there's too many dishes in the sink - how will i ever clean them all?" "oh, how can i clean my room when there's dirty clothes all over, and toys on the carpet, and my books are on the bed? i cannot do a thing - it's just too haaaard" would you accept that noise from your children? and yet, you accept it from your leaders...? and yourself?
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Lefty Specialist Nov 07 2017 03:42 PM Re: Vegas |
When someone says that a particular law wouldn't have prevented this mass shooting, my response is, 'Well, it might prevent the next one.'
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d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 04:38 PM Re: Vegas |
We've been over this a dozen times and I know no one agrees with me but if
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Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 04:52 PM Re: Vegas |
Illegal guns that appear in trunks down at the waterfront start their lives as legal ones. Illegal guns in New York start as legal ones in West Virginia. Illegal guns in Illinois start as legal ones in Kentucky.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 07 2017 04:54 PM Re: Vegas |
Yes there are vast and uneresolved underlying problems -- a rotten healthcare and mental healthcare; careless enforcement of stupid laws; generations of economic disadvantages and a subsequent breakdown of families and faith in the system; and a mostly IMO culture of violence encouraged by fighting wars all the time, but guns make tragedies out of those situations way too easy.
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d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 05:00 PM Re: Vegas |
I'm not pro-assault weapons. I don't know anyone who is.
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41Forever Nov 07 2017 05:03 PM Re: Vegas |
I agree that addressing the root causes of violence would be more beneficial than trying to take away the tools used in violent acts.
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A Boy Named Seo Nov 07 2017 05:16 PM Re: Vegas |
#Lunchbucket4Prez
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cooby Nov 07 2017 05:20 PM Re: Vegas |
Don't forget how many rounds you see/hear per night on tv or film.
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batmagadanleadoff Nov 07 2017 05:29 PM Re: Vegas |
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There's your answer. Just look to, I dunno, the rest of the world. Only in America where the politicians sold out to the NRA for suitcases stuffed with hundred dollar bills and an ideologically conservative and partisan Supreme Court hijacked the Second Amendment in Heller and severely limited the kinds of restrictions states can enact to regulate guns. Follow the money because it's always about the money.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 07 2017 06:10 PM Re: Vegas |
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I'm not saying make guns illegal, just make them harder to get. When an Attorney General of a large US state recommends that more people should arm themselves when attending church, something's gone terribly off the rails. Yes, banning certain types of guns will lead to a thriving criminal enterprise. Well, there are lots of things that are banned and police work to stop them. Most cops would feel a lot better if military-style weapons were less numerous. And yes, other first-world countries have figured out how to do this. Take Japan for instance. The number of gun related homicides in 2014 was 6. In a population of 127 million.
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Ceetar Nov 07 2017 06:54 PM Re: Vegas |
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I mean, we'd be in real danger if it took us 15 seconds to completely annihilate the 'enemy' rather than 10? Or if we reduced the number of soldiers coming back with say PTSD and inadequate mental health care to treat it? Or we had less soldiers that needed guns so made less guns so sold less military suplus weapons that make it back onto our streets?
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 07 2017 07:17 PM Re: Vegas |
I think at some level there's a connection between living in a country that solves all its problems with violence or the threat of it, and the prevalence of its citizens who feel the same. People are shamed for even suggesting they cut military spending anymore, that treasonous dumbass in the white house is proposing to bump that up significantly, while taking away everything that might address the root causes I mentioned.
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Centerfield Nov 07 2017 08:10 PM Re: Vegas |
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Yeah. This. A thousand times. But if Sandy Hook didn't do it, will it ever? One can only hope that future generations will be wiser than our's.
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Benjamin Grimm Nov 07 2017 08:16 PM Re: Vegas |
Unfortunately, we don't seem to be currently trending towards greater wisdom.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 07 2017 09:14 PM Re: Vegas |
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Yes, the Sandy Hook 'truthers' are the most despicable human beings possible. They still torture these poor people five years after they lost their 6-year-old kids, by saying it never happened. It's the only way they can reconcile their insane beliefs. But we could have a Sandy Hook every day for a year and I'd still be doubtful we could get meaningful gun control passed.
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d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 09:43 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
I don't want to google and visit a site that may spew such a thing, but there
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Benjamin Grimm Nov 07 2017 09:49 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Yes, sadly, there are such sites. I've read stories where the parents of the slain children get phone calls from people saying "Your child never existed! It's all a hoax."
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Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 09:51 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Plenty. From the very beginning.
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d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 10:51 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
I guess the brainwashed sicko-dom knows no bounds. I can't imagine
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Frayed Knot Nov 07 2017 11:56 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Of all the conspiracy theories out there, that one (Sandy Hook) always struck me as not just the cruelest but also the weirdest. Both because it's not clear what the point of it all was (a staged "event" so
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Edgy MD Nov 08 2017 12:34 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Oh, I think they've sold it beyond an inner circle. I mean, even plenty folks who don't believe it, kinda sorta wanna believe it because they resent that such incidents serve as an obvious pretext for re-examing our gun policies.
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d'Kong76 Nov 08 2017 12:42 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
I had to google Alex Jones, guess I'm just not tuned into certain things
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Lefty Specialist Nov 08 2017 01:04 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Millions of people listen to him. There's a special circle of hell with his name on it. He's a virulent symbol of what's wrong with America today.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 08 2017 01:10 AM Re: Vegas |
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Still scratching my head over this one. The military can have all the hardware they want. But military weapons in civilian hands is how you get a Sutherland Springs, where virtually everyone in that church was either killed or wounded.
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cooby Nov 08 2017 01:16 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Me too...what? is it a woman or a man? :-O (head hurts) (want to be canadian)
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Edgy MD Nov 08 2017 01:28 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
You're not missing anything of substance. He's a fabulist masquerading as a journalist/news analyst. Millions listen to him and every word out of his mouth and on his website (mostly conspiracy theories) is impassioned bullshit.
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cooby Nov 08 2017 01:30 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
So this guy was at large from a mental home?
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A Boy Named Seo Nov 08 2017 02:41 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Alex Jones? Likely.
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metsmarathon Nov 08 2017 04:39 AM Re: Vegas |
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Just as a point of fact, the AR problem is not a result of military surplus. (The up-arming of our police, on the other hand, is). The gun manufacturers are supplementing their coffers (and likely reducing the cost of military hardware) by leveraging their military designs and selling “civilian versions” of the same. Cutting the military budget wouldn’t affect the availability of these weapons, except in that they would become somewhat more expensive to purchase, but likely not by a real whole lot. I’m a big fan of the military and it’s hardware. It belongs out of the hands of the populace.
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Ceetar Nov 08 2017 02:13 PM Re: Vegas |
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I'm not. And I wasn't speaking specifically to the issues but more to the 'reduce the total number of guns that exist, period'
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41Forever Nov 08 2017 02:42 PM Re: Vegas |
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I don't think that's how it works. We don't use the weapons that "annihilate" and I hope we never do. When Theodore Roosevelt said "speak softly, but carry a big stick" he was saying that the bad guys are less likely to attack you if they know you are strong. Weakening our military makes us less safe. Count me as a fan of the military and the heroes serving in it.
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Ceetar Nov 08 2017 02:57 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
spending less on the military does not mean we're less safe. Having a smaller stick does not mean we're less safe. Hell, Teddy Roosevelt didn't even really comprehend machine gun war, never mind current politics.
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Edgy MD Nov 08 2017 03:00 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Congratulations on getting that Roosevelt quote right.
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seawolf17 Nov 08 2017 03:02 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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The whole military-industrial complex is incredible. It's jobs for millions of people, both making planes and missiles and things and then flying and dropping said missiles. And I will *never* understand how sending more troops into -- wherever, pick the country -- makes us safer. If another country sent thousands of troops here and started "helping" us, that would probably make me angrier, not more friendly.
All of this, really. This shit just *doesn't happen* in other countries, and yet we make it seem like *they're* the outliers because of a law that's 240 years old.
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Edgy MD Nov 08 2017 03:19 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Well, sending troops into Japan and South Korea can be said to have helped make us safer, and helped make those countries terrifically prosperous. Germany also.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 08 2017 03:54 PM Re: Vegas |
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(Scratches head harder) No one's talking about weakening the national defense by stopping Billy Joe from buying a Bushmaster AR-15. It's about protecting the rest of us from Billy Joe if he gets mad and goes to the local gun show. And the Japanese might quibble about that 'Weapons that Annihilate' part.
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41Forever Nov 08 2017 04:38 PM Re: Vegas |
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Was responding to Lunchbucket's suggestion of cutting the military budget to the bone.
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d'Kong76 Nov 08 2017 05:12 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Not at large, but it was reported that he once escaped from a mental hospital (2012?) Lotta people dropped the ball on this nut job, sad side stories to a horrifically sadder story.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 09 2017 01:38 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Gee, must be something in the water in Michigan:
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 09 2017 02:05 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Maybe "to the bone" was overstating it but we are comically out of proportion to the rest of the world already in defense spending and behind in services to make things livable for people at home. And "I support our brave men and women in uniform" is the kind of response to suggestions we reorder priorities in our very screwed up country that keeps us careening backwards. One can support the military and still reel in its budget I think.
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cooby Nov 09 2017 02:32 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
I listen to radio classics on XM and it's incredible what people did in the 1940s at home to support the troops. Ration stamps, tin and rubber drives, war bonds, etc but my favorite is the ad to give up Vitalis because the boys on the front needed it
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Nymr83 Nov 09 2017 02:33 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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BARS?? there is a great combination...
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Edgy MD Nov 09 2017 02:36 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
The discretionary spending that we can cut is certainly not money that makes life safer and more dignified for military personnel.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 09 2017 02:57 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Tens of billions could be cut from the national defense budget without affecting national security one iota.
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Edgy MD Nov 09 2017 03:03 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
The president understands cyberspace to be the place where tweets go.
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d'Kong76 Nov 09 2017 03:08 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Closer blows a save? Pop a cap in his ass! Crazy.
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41Forever Nov 09 2017 05:18 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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The Governor vetoed a similar bill when it last came before him, and indicated this morning that his feelings haven't changed. [url]http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/gov_snyder_vetoed_concealed_gu.html#incart_river_home
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d'Kong76 Nov 09 2017 05:34 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Lol, such a mensch!
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metsmarathon Nov 09 2017 05:44 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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So, not that I want to get this topic too much farther off from where it started, but we are not now 10 or 50 or 100 times more capable than our likely adversaries. We have great advantages to be sure, but the gap is closing. Our spending is so great because we are leading the war efforts on multiple fronts (an argument can certainly be made that this should be curtailed greatly to be sure). But we also spebd a lot of money training our troops and paying for them. Ours is (I think) the best trained military for a reason, and it’s not cheap to do so. Our military r&d and procurement is expensive in part due to high cost of manufacturing here in the us. And we have very high standards of reliability and safety, shelf life, and operational environments. Reducing collateral damage leads to more expensive engineering challenges as well. We cannot cut our manufacturing and development costs to the level of our rivals without tremendously affecting the safety and readiness of our soldiers. Unlike our chief rivals, our soldiers and equipment is not expendable. We are not set up to churn through soldiers bodies to solve our problems It would be ideal if another nation were as willing as ours to step up into the fray. It would also be advantageous if our own nation would not be so ready to manufacture a fray to step into, if couse. Yes some weapons programs are bad ideas or wander astray of their goals. But the bulk of our arsenal is not a wasteful glory grab for politicians. (Well, ok. For the army it’s far more true. We don’t get the aircraft carriers and stealth jets.) The other benefit of military spending is that it does keep the money in-country, for non-deployment apending of course. And that money helped to ensure that we have a strong and vibrant manufacturing base throughout the nation, which keeps people employed and allows for consumer products to be more readily built here instead of overseas. Also we develop cool shit. Like gps, and the internet. That said, less war is more gooder. We should do less war.
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41Forever Nov 09 2017 05:50 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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LOL? Did you want him to sign the bill?
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d'Kong76 Nov 09 2017 06:00 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Lol'n at your rushing to his defense, but it's not as funny if I have to explain it. :-)
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41Forever Nov 09 2017 06:02 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Ah, I'm the mensch. Now I get it.
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Lefty Specialist Nov 09 2017 06:55 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Well, jeez, let's hope so. We went to Turner Field a while ago and the guy in front of us on line said 'I have a carry permit' to the security guy, then proceeded to pull out one big-ass gun. I instantly regretted wearing Mets gear, and we were looking over our shoulders the whole time as the Mets built up an early lead on their way to an 11-1 victory.
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Edgy MD Nov 09 2017 07:11 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
WTF are we lining up to get through the security gate when some Cobb County cowboy can just waltz right in with a heater?
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d'Kong76 Nov 09 2017 07:21 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
So, to be clear, you're against taking out Familia if he blows a save?
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Edgy MD Nov 09 2017 07:25 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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I'm assuming that includes licensed guns and hoping I'm right.
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Ceetar Nov 09 2017 07:28 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
some concerts at Citi Field even specifically included nunchucks on the not allowed list.
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d'Kong76 Nov 09 2017 07:28 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
I couldn't bring in a Leatherman Micro on my key chain once to Shea, had to bring
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Frayed Knot Nov 09 2017 08:04 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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That was all more to support the government (aka: raise money) than it was any kind of goodwill gesture towards 'the boys'. You basically couldn't buy tires, cars, butter, sugar, etc. (or just in tiny quantities) even if you wanted to. "Victory Gardens" in your backyard weren't merely a nice gesture, vegetables were simply scarce due to the gov't sending them all overseas, so if you wanted 'em ...
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Benjamin Grimm Nov 14 2017 07:04 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
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Another day in Second Amendment Land:
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Centerfield Nov 14 2017 08:41 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Another elementary school.
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metsmarathon Nov 14 2017 08:48 PM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
never let an unarmed child get in the way of your 2nd amendment rights.
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Edgy MD Nov 16 2017 04:33 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
Our mass shootings are so devoid of meaning at this point that our hollow man of a president just tweeted his comforting words, by copying and pasting his message from the previous shooting, AND NOT BOTHERING TO EDIT THE NAME OF THE LOCATION.
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Nymr83 Nov 16 2017 04:42 AM Re: Vegas/Sutherland Springs |
i think in some way this is one of the most damning Trump stories yet, because unlike all the stories that show how he doesn't know what he is doing, this one actually shows he doesn't care!
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