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FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield Oct 06 2017 01:47 PM

Ben Grimm made reference to a line in Bill Madden's article today endorsing Joe McEwing. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.3544160 The line I'm referring to: The Mets? Well, the treatment of Collins, all the question marks emanating out of this disastrous season, the apparent determination of ownership to cut payroll, combined with the relentless media scrutiny and expectations that come with managing in New York probably makes them the least appealing job. I have no idea how a candidate views the Mets job, but where are we getting this idea that ownership is determined to cut payroll? As far as I can tell, all the speculation that payroll will drop comes from Alderson's non-committal statements in September. “As far as the payroll’s concerned, the payroll ended up being closer to like $155 (million) this year, which was beyond what we had expected to spend this year. So I’m certainly not sitting here and willing to say, ‘OK, it’s going to be at least as high as it was (this) year,’ but we expect to be a competitive team next year. I know that is going to depend a lot on the health of our pitching staff, particularly our starting pitching and so forth. But the fact that we had so many dollars coming off the books, we recognized, and a good percentage of that, at this point undetermined, certainly will be reinvested in the payroll, but I can’t give you a specific number.” I don't know how anyone can read that as an "apparent determination of ownership to cut payroll". Did I miss something from the owners? Look I'm happy to bash the Wilpons just as much as anyone else, but it doesn't seem like they've actually done anything yet. As for the payroll itself, the Mets were 12th out of 30 teams before the selloff. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/here ... -for-2017/ For what it's worth, I still see no reason why a NY team can't crack the top 10. As far as results: Top 10 Payrolls: *5 teams made the playoffs (including the top 3 spenders overall) *4 division winners *LA Dodgers, the top spender, had the best record in baseball Middle 10 Payrolls: *3 teams made the playoffs. *2 Division Winners *Cleveland, 102 Wins, best record in AL Bottom 10 Payrolls: *2 teams made the playoffs, both Wild Cards

Edgy MD Oct 06 2017 01:48 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: I have no idea how a candidate views the Mets job, but where are we getting this idea that ownership is determined to cut payroll? Bill Madden never struck me as a guy who makes a lot of calls to muster the facts to back up his notions.

Centerfield Oct 06 2017 01:53 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: I have no idea how a candidate views the Mets job, but where are we getting this idea that ownership is determined to cut payroll? Bill Madden never struck me as a guy who makes a lot of calls to muster the facts to back up his notions. Right? I mean Sandy has been talking like that every year. And yet payroll goes up every year. The Mets move up in the payroll standings every year.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 06 2017 02:10 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think you're exactly right. Those comments from Sandy have taken on a life of their own, and people (including but not limited to Bill Madden) are blowing it out of proportion.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 06 2017 03:28 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't root for payrolls anyway.

Centerfield Oct 06 2017 04:34 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I don't root for payrolls anyway. Which is your's (and every fan's) prerogative. But the effect of payroll on a team's chances of success are real. If you spend, you can use this to your advantage. If you do not, you are at a disadvantage, and your road to the playoffs is harder.

Ceetar Oct 06 2017 05:31 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I don't root for payrolls anyway. Which is your's (and every fan's) prerogative. But the effect of payroll on a team's chances of success are real. If you spend, you can use this to your advantage. If you do not, you are at a disadvantage, and your road to the playoffs is harder. This is an overall trend type thing and not really super relevant year by year. If you get too granular with it you start falling into "This player's better because I spent more money on him". i.e. the money the Mets have spent in previous seasons is relevant to 2018 regardless of what 2018s payroll is exactly.

Centerfield Oct 13 2017 04:59 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

LCS Numbers: 3 (Dodgers, Yanks, Cubs) of the remaining 4 teams are in the top 10 payrolls, with Numbers 1 and 2 overall still alive. The fourth team (Houston) slots in at #18. Dodgers: *It will be their 2nd Straight LCS, and 5th in the last 10 years. *Made the playoffs 5 straight years, and 7 out of the last 10 Yankees: *It will be their first LCS since 2012, 3rd in the last 10 years *Made the playoffs 6 of the last 10 years, including 1 WS championship Cubs: *playing their 3rd straight LCS, 3 in the last 10 years. *made the playoffs 4 of the last 10 years, 1 WS Championship Houston: *First LCS since 2005, none in the last 10 years. *made playoffs 2 of the last 10 years

Centerfield Oct 13 2017 05:06 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: This is an overall trend type thing and not really super relevant year by year. I agree that it's an overall trend thing. I don't know what you mean by "super relevant". I think overall trend things are relevant every year. Smoking increases your chance of cancer. Wearing seat belt increases your chance avoiding injury. Spending increases your chance of winning. These likelihoods apply every year, no matter the results. Ceetar wrote: If you get too granular with it you start falling into "This player's better because I spent more money on him". i.e. the money the Mets have spent in previous seasons is relevant to 2018 regardless of what 2018s payroll is exactly. Maybe you do. I don't.

Ceetar Oct 13 2017 05:13 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Smoking increases your chance of cancer. Wearing seat belt increases your chance avoiding injury. Spending increases your chance of winning. These likelihoods apply every year, no matter the results. If you never smoke and have a few packs in 2018 it's unlikely you'll get cancer in 2018. If you stop smoking now you still have an elevated risk of cancer in 2018. You could sign Lorenzo Cain and have him preform worse than Juan Lagares would've in a different timeline where you don't sign him.

Centerfield Oct 13 2017 05:21 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

If you smoke in 2018, you have a higher risk of cancer than you would if you didn't. This applies whether or not you smoked before. If you do not smoke in 2018, you have a lower risk of cancer than you would if you didn't. This applies whether or not you smoked before. Juan Lagares is a nonsmoker and gets lung cancer. Lorenzo Cain smokes two packs a day but is cancer free. This example does not make the two prior statements untrue.

Ceetar Oct 13 2017 05:28 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Sure, but the reason they did/didn't get cancer is perhaps unrelated to smoking. And it's your job to figure out which one's going to get cancer. Simply being like "Cain doesn't smoke!" doesn't actually give you a better shot at winning if he's baking in the sun 8 hours a day getting sunburnt or something. What I'm saying is that money is one part of it but it sometimes reduces to zero in the winning equation. This is especially true when it comes to relief pitching.

Centerfield Oct 13 2017 05:41 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't think I'm really following your argument. Smoking increases your risk of lung cancer. I'm not sure why this is controversial. This is why life insurance companies, who make their money gauging likelihoods, check whether or not you smoke. If insurance companies were to insure winning, one of the factors they would consider is payroll.

Ceetar Oct 13 2017 05:53 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

my argument is that there are a myriad of ways to improve your team, and sometimes the best 'assessment' of who is the best fit isn't one that needs/can be bought. What if Sandy learns about a MI guy that can play second who's available for trade, or what if the answer is Otani, or.. more specifically, what if the answer IS Lagares and not Cain. You have to actively not spend money to make that happen.

Centerfield Nov 08 2017 03:33 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I've been thinking lately about these reports that the Mets payroll might be dropping. The cynic in me wonders if the Mets leaked this to see how the news would be received. So far, the press has been pretty ho-hum about this. Even Howard Megdal has been quiet. I hope that ownership does not view this as complacency among the fan base. I hope they don't think "Hey, it looks like everyone will be cool with Steve Cishek and RA Dickey!" It's been widely understood that the Wilpons are sensitive, putting too much emphasis on public perception. That's largely why people believe that outspoken fans and media may have played a hand in bringing back Cespedes. True or not, I have no idea. But you know, it can't hurt. So I figure I'll reach out to the media, and ask them for answers. Specifically: 1. Are the Mets really hamstrung financially? 2. If so, why is this the case? Why can't they spend like the Cubs or Nats? 3. If it's because of Madoff, take the Wilpons to task. Completely unacceptable to have this cloud hang over the team for nine years. I started with David Lennon at Newsday. His email: david.lennon@newsday.com I'll be collecting more info on others and emailing them as well. It worked for Andy Dufresne. Maybe it can work here. I know that some of you guys don't really care about payroll, and that's cool. But if you do, maybe you can help me. Post contact information here. I was looking for Megdal's email but couldn't find it. Better yet reach out yourselves. Email, twitter, whatever way you see fit. Not your cup of tea? That's ok. I'll keep my discussions on this limited to this thread. I figure this is a better use of my time than grumbling about it here all winter.

Ceetar Nov 08 2017 04:07 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

pass on Megdal. It's easy enough to guess usually It's either mike.puma, mpuma, pmike, mikep, @nypost.com etc. try jeff@sterl.com or fred@sterl.com if you like

d'Kong76 Nov 08 2017 06:09 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm pretty sure Megdal lurks here, but we haven't exactly been most welcoming to him over the years. Not everyone 'gets' us. Tough crowd haha. Start a facebook group called "Are the Wilpons Still Cheaping Out the Fans" or something! It could go viral or whatever the buzzword is this month.

Centerfield Nov 08 2017 10:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Hey Matthew Ehalt, Mets beat writer for the Record, Why do the Mets continue to be hamstrung financially? Why can’t a NY team spend at the level of the Nats, Cubs or Boston? Is it still a product of Madoff? That was NINE years ago! Don’t let the Wilpons off the hook. Take them to task! Thanks for reaching out. It's hard to say exactly why the Mets have not spent like they have in the past, but the team did spend more this past year. I do understand the fans frustrations regarding the payroll. Have a nice day. --Matt Whoa, what's with the blowoff Matt? Aren't you the beat writer for the Mets? How about some investigative journalism dude? How about you get some answers. Not really. My actual response: Hey Matthew, Thanks for getting back to me. It would be great if you would consider looking into why the Mets are so cash strapped. It’s a question that’s front and center on many Mets’ fans minds. I think it would get a lot of people’s attention. Write to Matthew and tell him how much you would like to see that article: Ehalt@northjersey.com

Centerfield Nov 13 2017 05:31 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

So I'm a few days into this project. Emailing beat writers, reaching out on twitter. Most have been courteous enough to respond, but none have given any indication that they will go any further with the story. It's really pretty surprising to me that they don't think it's an issue. No one seems to refute the fact that the Wilpons were pummeled by Madoff, and the subsequent lawsuits. Everyone seems to also accept that in the wake of Madoff, the Wilpons took out huge loans against the Mets and SNY, and used the proceeds of those loans for their unrelated real estate interests. And now, SNY and the Mets are saddled with interest payments on those loans. This makes overhead for the Mets artificially high, and therefore, constricts payroll. There are a number of articles that reference the fans' frustration, and mention the constricted finances in passing, but no one seems inclined to take the Wilpons to task. People are generally aware that diverting baseball revenues for private means is what caused Selig to take over the Dodgers. All the while Selig was extending a secret loan to the Wilpons who had done the exact same thing. It seems like the Wilpons are, in a way, bulletproof. You would expect the "hard hitting NY media" to rake them over the coals. But since Sandy's comment in September, there has been not one article criticizing the Mets owners. A big contingent of fans are upset, but the media ignores it. Don't know what to make of it. I guess, like many here, people just don't care about payroll.

d'Kong76 Nov 13 2017 05:50 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: It seems like the Wilpons are, in a way, bulletproof. You would expect the "hard hitting NY media" to rake them over the coals. But since Sandy's comment in September, there has been not one article criticizing the Mets owners. Don't know what to make of it. I guess, like many here, people just don't care about payroll. I care, to a point. It's just been old news for like almost two decades that the The Wilpies are just terrible owners. Think about it, 20 years. I don't remember at what point you joined mofo but it was a big thing in like '98 or '99. I was not a big supporter of 'Sell the Team NOW!!!' and stuff like that back then but good fuck the dude was right!?!

d'Kong76 Nov 13 2017 05:55 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I have my time frame off by a couple of years, but I still care! haha

Ceetar Nov 13 2017 06:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The media won't even reliably ask about the Mets interest in Otani which requires mostly public information and planning. I'm not surprised they have little interest in the type of journalism required to try to even come close to figuring out a private conglomerate's finances.

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2017 08:04 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: but none have given any indication that they will go any further with the story ... It's really pretty surprising to me that they don't think it's an issue. Not sure it's a lack of interest so much as it is a brick wall in getting any facts. This is a private business so there's no way to know the levels of revenues, debt, expenses (beyond the 40-man roster portion of it). No way to know what SNY makes (or loses), what the team makes (or loses), or what the whole operation costs to run. P.S. SELL THE TEAM NOW!!! was still an asshole.

Centerfield Nov 13 2017 08:26 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I guess that's what it is right? A story like this would take some real investigative journalism. They'd rather regurgitate the same "What the Mets need" type of story that they can churn out in 15 minutes. But I'm surprised there aren't any "Wilpon Sucks" stories. It would take ten minutes to write "Wilpon owes it to the fans to fund a big market payroll. Whether it's Madoff or something else, I don't really know and don't care to investigate, but I know he's not spending money!" That type of lazy column would get shared a bazilllion times.

Ceetar Nov 13 2017 08:30 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

They interact with Jeff and Mets employees, they don't interact with the average WFAN caller.

Nymr83 Nov 13 2017 10:28 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: I guess that's what it is right? A story like this would take some real investigative journalism. They'd rather regurgitate the same "What the Mets need" type of story that they can churn out in 15 minutes. But I'm surprised there aren't any "Wilpon Sucks" stories. It would take ten minutes to write "Wilpon owes it to the fans to fund a big market payroll. Whether it's Madoff or something else, I don't really know and don't care to investigate, but I know he's not spending money!" That type of lazy column would get shared a bazilllion times. Why are we ENCOURAGING more lazy writing? If they cant be bothered to do the research then they shouldn't publish baseless crap about the Wilpons.

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2017 11:36 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: It would take ten minutes to write "Wilpon owes it to the fans to fund a big market payroll. Whether it's Madoff or something else, I don't really know and don't care to investigate, but I know he's not spending money!" But the problem is, writing a column to say that the NYM payroll needs to be higher but without any specific information to estimate a particular figure other than just ... 'more', isn't much of a story.

Centerfield Nov 13 2017 11:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

True. But it at least spurs conversation, and perhaps puts the spotlight on an area that has been underreported. I'd argue it has more journalistic value than "Here are ten guys in no way linked to the Mets other than this article that I just fabricated!"

Centerfield Nov 15 2017 03:23 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

This is encouraging: https://twitter.com/Jim_BowdenSXM/statu ... 1793328128

Benjamin Grimm Nov 15 2017 03:54 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ricco is going to be the guest on Mets Hot Stove on Thursday. I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say.

Centerfield Nov 15 2017 05:07 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Ricco is going to be the guest on Mets Hot Stove on Thursday. I'm looking forward to hearing what he has to say. You've been plugging that show a lot lately. I wonder if you've been paid off. Are you here to talk about Qualcomm?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 15 2017 06:30 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

We have a deal in place. If I plug Mets Hot Stove, SNY will plug Maja's reality show.

Centerfield Dec 13 2017 03:09 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Payroll? No problem. Sandy's got it under control. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.3694193 "I know a lot of attention is paid to payroll. I know a lot of attention is paid to payroll, but we had a pretty good payroll last year and it went down because of some trades and so forth and I expect we will have a healthy payroll this year," Alderson said. Well, that at least sounds encouraging right? Maybe Sandy is just waiting for the top of the market to fall so he can get a steal like the Indians did with Edwin Encarnacion!

dgwphotography Dec 13 2017 04:02 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't trust them, and wouldn't believe them if they told me the sky was blue. Let's see what the Payroll is on Opening Day

G-Fafif Dec 13 2017 04:26 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

dgwphotography wrote: I don't trust them, and wouldn't believe them if they told me the sky was blue. Let's see what the Payroll is on Opening Day "There needs to be less of a focus on the color of the sky," Alderson said. "There is a variety of clouds and atmospheric conditions and we'll be taking all of them into account."

Ceetar Dec 13 2017 04:47 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Sandy is definitely partially trolling sometimes with this stuff.

Centerfield Dec 15 2017 08:11 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I moved this discussion to the payroll thread since it's more on point here. dgwphotography wrote: Centerfield wrote: If you think about it, it's mind-boggling that the Mets went "over budget" last year. Considering they were still not top 10, AND they collected on Wright all year long. This. Does anyone know what the Mets' Fan cost Index was for 2017? I remember a few years ago, their payroll was ranked 23rd (IIRC), yet they were 7th in FCI. Don't really know what FCI is. But according to Forbes, the Mets had the 7th highest revenue in 2017. Yet somehow, they went over budget despite having a 12th ranked payroll and collecting David Wright insurance money (meaning their payroll was actually not nearly as high). This can only mean one thing. Their expenses are extraordinarily high. We know why this is the case. They refinanced their debt in the early part of this decade, pulled out hundreds of millions of dollars, and saddled that debt upon the Mets and SNY. This is why the 7th highest revenue team can't field the 7th highest payroll in baseball. Now, I wonder what they Wilpons did with those hundreds of millions of dollars? I don't think we can really tell. I mean, I'm sure that's all been reinvested in the Mets. It's not like the Wilpons, successful real estate investors, suddenly and unexpectedly found themselves in a situation where they had to pay somebody truckloads of money...

Ceetar Dec 15 2017 08:13 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't think they went over budget last year. I also don't know what exactly Forbes is measuring, but I do know it's an incomplete picture.

Centerfield Dec 15 2017 08:41 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: I don't think they went over budget last year. “I can tell you from an operational standpoint, I look at it this way,” Alderson said. “If I persuade the owner that it’s best to spend an extra 10 to 15 million dollars to go for it — but I also assure him that if it doesn’t work out I can move 9 or 10 or 12 million dollars — having actually done it gives me a better case going forward.” https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball ... 1.14065413 Ceetar wrote: I also don't know what exactly Forbes is measuring, but I do know it's an incomplete picture. You are correct sir. Revenue and expenses of team-owned real estate (stadiums, stores, parking lots, etc.) owned by the team are included in our valuations, but the value of the real estate itself is excluded. We also do not include the value of regional sports networks owned by teams or their profits or losses. But we do include the rights fees (and pro-rated upfront bonuses) the RSNs pay the teams. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozania ... 441de24515 Because Forbes is taking into account revenue derived by the teams (including TV rights fees), but do not include the revenue from sports networks owned by the teams (like SNY), clubs like the Yankees and Mets actually have higher revenues than listed. And if those teams happen to play in large TV markets, like say, New York, then the revenue from those team owned stations would be considerable. It is reasonable to conclude that the Mets would move comfortably into the top 5 if you compare apples to apples.

Ceetar Dec 15 2017 08:51 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

That's not a quote about a hard budget as much as it is a justification for additional gambles. I mean that Forbes is estimating/analyzing those revenue streams but is not completely aware of how they're divied up or the specifics of the loan payments against them. It gets murky. I mean, the Mets DO owe money on Citi Field and I'm fairly confident the Wilpons count the money they have to pay against that as a Mets cost, not a personal one. Even if they technically paid off that debt with an external loan from Bank of America that's consolidated with other debt, etc. I'm not saying this is good, or right, or whatever. I do think it's fairly consistent since they got the Mets back above water, in the way they spend. Theoretically this will only get better though, as they keep the Mets in a positive state, as they pay back debt, and as the Mets actually gain in value and (hopefully) leverage at least decent team into success and profit. And that's what I mean when I say i don't really care about the payroll, it's that I've made my peace with the strategy, nothing I rant about is going to change it, the Wilpons are in no danger of losing the team through fan pressure or financial ones. I can only watch and enjoy my team.

Lefty Specialist Dec 16 2017 02:48 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Well, Jay Horwitz and all that extra legroom on JetBlue could be a contributing factor in their money troubles.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 16 2017 04:50 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think you guys are really over-complicating things with this what does Forbes know and do the Mets take in this much or that much from parking revenues multiplied by the square root of pi divided by their market size. The Mets play in the greatest city in the world. It's the same exact city that the Yankees play in. The Mets enjoy the same exact gargantuan competitive advantages that any team should derive from playing in this city. Just like the Yankees. So a little Occam's Razor here. The Mets should have one of the top two, three, four or five payrolls every single season. They don't. It's because the ownership is cheap, inept and ineffective.

Centerfield Dec 16 2017 01:57 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I never view providing evidence as "over-complicating". But the evidence points to the same result. If they are #7 before counting SNY revenue, they are comfortably top 5. If not top 2. I think it's worse than being incompetent or cheap. I think they are crooks. They are taking Mets revenue to payoff Madoff debt. It's a practice that was deemed to be not in the best interest of the game when it was Frank McCourt and led him to be stripped of his team. When their buddy Selig saw that the Wilpons were guilty of the same, instead of booting them, he gave the Wilpons a loan. They are crooked and corrupt. Dishonest. They should be out of baseball, but they remain, like a curse on this beloved team. They talk about CitiField being cursed, the only curse here is the Wilpons.

Centerfield Dec 16 2017 01:59 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

And look, I get that a lot of you have made your peace with this. This is just how things are, nothing we can do about it. It makes me angry. Every off-season the injustice of it pisses me off. And the way the media lets them off the hook. No one is panning them. There are no anti-Wilpon articles. There are no "Wilpons must go" articles. It's only the fans that say and feel this. Can't understand why.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 16 2017 03:26 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It doesn't do my temperament any good to riled up about it, and I think it helps me to have some perspective the Wilpons aren't the first bad owners of this club and won't be its last bad owners; and that baseball history is pretty much all about shitty owners and the Wilpons might not even rate with the kind villains it that group. Plus, and this is just my own theory I tell myself, but I think its clear the problem with the ownership isn't that they're evil but that they're stupid, and the main stupid guy is 81 years old. That New Yorker article was the best take I'd ever read on Fred. Everyone should re-read it. Fred is a unique kind of "success" in that achieving it had nothing to do with brains or instinct or savvy, but he thinks it has. It's really only about the relationships he makes and what they make permissible. So he makes a deal with a guy like Madoff; its irrelevant to Fred whether Madoff's a crook or not, it may not even occur to Fred that being a crook is wrong, at least not for a guy who has his trust. Art Howe impresses Fred personally, therefore Fred believes he'll impress everyone. Fred buys a baseball team, that makes Fred a baseball expert. Fred has a personal relationship to the 1950s Dodgers, therefore the stadium evokes them. Fred rubs Bud Selig's back, Bud rubs Fred's. Fred feels bad about what a mess he's made of the Mets, he thinks an interview with the New Yorker will convince everyone to see it his way. But put the guy in a situation where savvy, instinct or brains are required and Fred just comes up empty again and again. He doesn't understand the fans but thinks he does; he doesn't appear capable of dedication or adherence to a framework but decides everything on a case-by-case basis. That's why nobody knows what the payroll is; it's not that Fred is evil, it's that he's incompetent and doesn't know it. That's really a fascinating lesson in business. Jeff seems to have inherited at least some of his dad's tone-deafness in a more aggressive, modern way (the harassment thing) but I also tell myself he's more in-tune with the real world. He may not prove any smarter than his dad in the end, and we'll probably see *his* son working up the ladder soon but and I tell myself the Mets could be something different when Fred and Saul (78) go.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 16 2017 03:32 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: I think it's worse than being incompetent or cheap. I think they are crooks. They are taking Mets revenue to payoff Madoff debt. It's a practice that was deemed to be not in the best interest of the game when it was Frank McCourt and led him to be stripped of his team.... I totally agree with this double standard. The only real reason the Wilpons were allowed to keep their team, but not McCourt, is because the Wilpons relationship with Selig was cozier than McCourt's. Any other explanation is utter bullshit. And the Wilpons probably are crooks. The Madoff trustee presented powerful evidence that the Mets owners had to have known that Madoff's funds were Ponzi schemes. At the least, they were willfully ignorant. FWIW, I personally believe that the Mets owners knew they were invested in a total scam. I mean, they're probably crooks even before Madoff. How the hell do you build a billion dollar empire from nothing in the dirty, cutthroat world of New York real estate without any corruption? The whole goddamn world of masters of universe is one big crooked den of thieves.

Centerfield Dec 17 2017 02:00 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Marc Carig. American Hero. https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball ... 1.15485312

bmfc1 Dec 17 2017 02:26 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

No surprise that the Wilpons insulted the press and us by not commenting. Meanwhile, PHI gets Carlos Santana while Sandy sits around and hopes that the market falls his way.

smg58 Dec 17 2017 03:14 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The Phillies gave $60 million to a guy whose career OPS+ is 1 point higher than Lucas Duda's, at a position where they were already strong, and that's your counter-example for why we need to act now? NO starting pitchers of consequence have come off the market yet. Many good relievers have come off the market, and one of them is coming here. Granted, my plan A for second base (Cozart) is gone, but there are still plenty of options out there (including a two-time All Star we've been linked to in multiple rumors). I'm not going to judge the offseason until April -- or perhaps longer than that, given that we might want to see the new guys play first.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 17 2017 04:42 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Marc Carig. American Hero. https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball ... 1.15485312 That column is pretty much the one you've been waiting for, isn't it? Hopefully others, many others, will take up this narrative.

bmfc1 Dec 17 2017 07:10 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

smg58 wrote: The Phillies gave $60 million to a guy whose career OPS+ is 1 point higher than Lucas Duda's, at a position where they were already strong, and that's your counter-example for why we need to act now? Santana had a 3.0 WAR in '17 and a 3.4 WAR in '16, so yeah, that's my "counter-example", especially when Sandy tore down Smith not 2 months ago (which he now claims was to light a fire). I hope you're right, it's not February yet but I'm skeptical.

Centerfield Dec 17 2017 07:57 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Marc Carig. American Hero. https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball ... 1.15485312 That column is pretty much the one you've been waiting for, isn't it? Hopefully others, many others, will take up this narrative. Yes. Very close. In a perfect world I would have loved more numbers but the idea is spot on. And yes, hoping others will rally around it. bmfc doing his best on twitter to make it so!

bmfc1 Dec 17 2017 08:09 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: And yes, hoping others will rally around it. bmfc doing his best on twitter to make it so! Gotta be, Centerfield.

metirish Dec 18 2017 03:16 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I know it is silly but I am beyond fed up with the Mets org, I have recently either unsubscribed to Mets related emails(including Mets.com ) or reported it as SPAM.

cooby Dec 18 2017 03:45 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

makes you wonder if they are in dire straits again

Centerfield Dec 18 2017 04:11 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

So it's interesting. The fan reaction was tremendous. Certain other members of the media applauded him. But several groups were conspicuously silent. There has always been this feeling that certain members of the media are compromised. Now, you can't help but feel that this is true. Namely: 1. Metsblog. Used to be fan-run, now it's affiliated with SNY. Basically, there is no chance to be objective and call out the guy that signs your checks. So Matt Cerrone or anyone writing on that site is silenced. 2. The Daily News: Frequent collaborators with SNY, and many of the writers have recurring TV roles. This makes them more visible than they ever would have been otherwise. They are not going to speak out against the Wilpons. 3. SNY people. No chance. This includes "opinion" guys like Sal Licata or Nelson Figueroa. You don't speak out against your boss. 4. The 7 Line Army: Used to be a group of fans that spoke their mind. Now they have JV with the Mets to sell merchandise. A booth at CitiField. They're not going to risk that. Suddenly, you start to realize why the Wilpons skate without consequences. Instead of paying for ballplayers, they've paid for media.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 18 2017 04:17 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm not so sure about #2. Marc Carig frequently appears on SNY, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if John Harper of the News criticized the Mets for their cheapness. I'm pretty sure he's done so in the past.

Ashie62 Dec 18 2017 04:58 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

We are the voice of reason. Usually. Stickem up Fred.

Frayed Knot Dec 18 2017 07:56 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Such is the discontent of our winter. see what I did there?

G-Fafif Dec 18 2017 08:15 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Carig regularly joined Howie and Josh on the air as part of a Newsday deal during the season. He was on SNY just last week, not speaking in diplomatic tones. It's all pretty incestuous out there. I don't think criticism kills any established actor's participation in the dance. Other than learning (or having it confirmed) that the front office doesn't know what its budget is, I didn't get a lot out of Carig's article besides the satisfaction of a good public primal scream. It's mid-December. The Mets haven't missed out on every last opportunity to improve themselves short- or long-term. They just dropped $14 million on two years of a reliever (two days after Alderson doused expectations). Kinsler wasn't a universally targeted upgrade. If they completely miss on second base, if they don't find themselves a right field/first base type, if they're slapping Montero's picture on the cover of the pocket schedule, then I can see sharpening the pitchforks. I do get the feeling the industry is evolving faster than the Mets as constituted know how to keep pace. Perhaps the lack of transparency Carig decries is a symptom of that. There was a time when owners staying in the background was both normal and, juxtaposed versus certain loudmouth types, appreciated. Actions spoke plenty. They still will. Of course if you don't talk and you don't act, people can't be blamed for antsiness.

Centerfield Dec 18 2017 08:29 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think the article accomplished a lot. Sure, there is plenty of offseason left and there are plenty of good options still on the board. But that's why the article needed to come when it did. To have any chance to spur activity. It may not amount to anything, but at least he (and we) tried. You may not have learned much, but at least the message is out there. The Wilpons are at fault. It's something we all knew, but it's different to put that message out there in black and white. It also served to show who supports that message, and who elects to turn a blind eye. It was, by far, the single most popular Mets column written this post season. And it wasn't even close. You either rallied around it, or ignored it. There are so many guys out there that purport to be the voice of the Mets fan. Metsblog. The 7 Line Army. All the beat writers. After Carig's article, if a reporter/blogger/fan group leader ignores this, it's intentional. And we learn something about that individual. It's just one article and by itself it won't accomplish anything. But maybe it spurs another article, or a movement on Twitter, with more voices joining in. And maybe those voices become a chorus, and maybe that chorus becomes deafening until MLB has no choice but to do something. Who knows. But I have to try.

G-Fafif Dec 18 2017 09:02 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Darren Meenan, not endeavoring to be the Voice of the Fan: https://the7line.com/blogs/the-7-line/i ... ou-want-to Nor would anybody in his Wright mind. Rooting for the same team does not (as we continually and colorfully remind one another here) confer agreement on its details.

Nymr83 Dec 18 2017 09:16 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I agree 1000% with Darren's sentiments.

Centerfield Dec 18 2017 09:33 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

G-Fafif wrote: Darren Meenan, not endeavoring to be the Voice of the Fan: https://the7line.com/blogs/the-7-line/i ... ou-want-to Nor would anybody in his Wright mind. Rooting for the same team does not (as we continually and colorfully remind one another here) confer agreement on its details. Their motto is "For the Fans, By the Fans". They sell merchandise under the premises that they are not MLB, or the Wilpons, but rather, one of us. The fans. And whether you think the Wilpons are right, or wrong, the payroll issue is front and center to this team. When they ignore it, it's no accident. Have an issue with the Wilpons? Say so! Think the Wilpons are totally justified? Happy to hear them explain why. But ignore the issue completely because they get a nice little kiosk in CitiField? Sure, no one can tell them what to do with their blog or their business. But just as they are not obligated to do anything they don't think is appropriate, I am free to draw conclusions about them. And no, no one has to address any one particular issue, no matter how pervasive. But they danced ever so close with the Brian Erni "I'm frustrated" article last week. He vented his frustration and directed it at Alderson. The name "Wilpon" never showed up. That was intentional, and self-serving. Personally, I think they should change their motto to "For the Fans, By Fans Who Have a Financial Interest in Staying in the Good Graces of Ownership"

Benjamin Grimm Dec 18 2017 09:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't really pay any attention to them. Have they never made a shirt that's at all snarky or sarcastic about the Mets? I'm guessing they haven't.

Centerfield Dec 18 2017 09:41 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't really pay any attention to them. Have they never made a shirt that's at all snarky or sarcastic about the Mets? I'm guessing they haven't. It's funny you should ask. Way back in 2011, before their nice cozy deal with the Mets, the 7 Line became famous for this t-shirt. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they are fine with the Wilpons now.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 18 2017 09:48 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

And six years later, that sentiment is as valid as ever.

41Forever Dec 18 2017 09:53 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 18 2017 10:19 PM

Centerfield wrote: I think the article accomplished a lot. Sure, there is plenty of offseason left and there are plenty of good options still on the board. But that's why the article needed to come when it did. To have any chance to spur activity. It may not amount to anything, but at least he (and we) tried. You may not have learned much, but at least the message is out there. The Wilpons are at fault. It's something we all knew, but it's different to put that message out there in black and white. It also served to show who supports that message, and who elects to turn a blind eye. It was, by far, the single most popular Mets column written this post season. And it wasn't even close. You either rallied around it, or ignored it. There are so many guys out there that purport to be the voice of the Mets fan. Metsblog. The 7 Line Army. All the beat writers. After Carig's article, if a reporter/blogger/fan group leader ignores this, it's intentional. And we learn something about that individual. It's just one article and by itself it won't accomplish anything. But maybe it spurs another article, or a movement on Twitter, with more voices joining in. And maybe those voices become a chorus, and maybe that chorus becomes deafening until MLB has no choice but to do something. Who knows. But I have to try. I would think there is zero chance that MLB will do something, especially to a club that has just been to the postseason in two of the last three years and was devastated by injuries last season. If the league isn't stepping in as Jeter is destroying what is left of the Marlins' fan base, it's not stepping in because Mets fans are disgruntled with ownership for not being active enough. What I do see as a glaring problem with the Mets is the team's communications efforts. I have no idea who is advising the team in this area, or if there is an overall strategy or whether Sandy is just out there winging it. I think the last time Fred spoke to the media, he stepped in it a couple times -- David Wright isn't a superstar, Reyes not going to get Carl Crawford money -- and is probably gun shy or thinks he doesn't need the headache. If I were advising them, I'd make Jeff available to a couple of the higher-profile writers. Not a press conference where you get pounded by reporters trying to outdo each other, but a sit-down with some of the big guys. Work with him to stay positive but also humanize himself a little. Speak from the heart. Tell us why the team means something to him and why he has the best job in the nation. Teach him to pivot of the questions go to places where you don't want to go. It's OK to say that they'll never spend like the Yankees because no one can spend like the Yankees. There are a ton of reasons for him to speak optimistically. The team has two stud starters, very exciting young players in Conforto and Rosario, a colorful slugger in Cespedes, a new, young manager who is excited to be here, and a nice stadium that is still less than 10 years old. This is not the Mets of 1978. That was despair! What they don't seem to understand is that saying nothing is rarely the best option. Stuff is going to be written whether you speak to the media or not. And, as we are seeing, the stuff that gets written when you are not communicating is not the stuff you want to see. So you might as well be out there a bit. Show your customers that you care -- even though the roster in April is what we care about, not the roster in December.

d'Kong76 Dec 18 2017 09:58 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

41Forever wrote: If I were advising them, I'd make Jeff available to a couple of the higher-profile writers. Not sure, but I think I just had one of those aneurysm things.

Centerfield Dec 18 2017 09:59 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And six years later, that sentiment is as valid as ever. Not if your Darren Meenan. Today, he feels like this is an issue that should be decided by the voters of Alabama.

41Forever Dec 18 2017 10:18 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

d'Kong76 wrote: 41Forever wrote: If I were advising them, I'd make Jeff available to a couple of the higher-profile writers. Not sure, but I think I just had one of those aneurysm things. Not saying it would be easy. But if he's going to be the guy running the team, he should be out there a little. When the Cubs had a new owner -- and his name escapes me -- and the team was still awful, the new owner walked around the upper deck talking to fans and handing kids little spongy baseballs. I spoke to him briefly and he was nice. Certainly gives the fans a nice impression. It wouldn't hurt the Mets to have the Wilpons do something along those lines. Have Jeff sit with the Seven Line for an inning. Shake hands and pose for some selfies at the old Home Run Apple. Anything that shows the fans that the owners are listening. M. Donald Grant supposedly once said something like, "They players aren't the Mets. Mrs. Payson and I are the Mets." The Wilpons need to show that they aren't the current version of M. Donald Grant, who didn't realize that the game had long passed him by.

Centerfield Dec 18 2017 10:21 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

41Forever wrote: 41Forever wrote: If I were advising them, I'd make Jeff available to a couple of the higher-profile writers. Not sure, but I think I just had one of those aneurysm things. Not saying it would be easy. But if he's going to be the guy running the team, he should be out there a little. When the Cubs had a new owner -- and his name escapes me -- and the team was still awful, the new owner walked around the upper deck talking to fans and handing kids little spongy baseballs. I spoke to him briefly and he was nice. Certainly gives the fans a nice impression. It wouldn't hurt the Mets to have the Wilpons do something along those lines. Have Jeff sit with the Seven Line for an inning. Shake hands and pose for some selfies at the old Home Run Apple. Anything that shows the fans that the owners are listening. M. Donald Grant supposedly once said something like, "They players aren't the Mets. Mrs. Payson and I are the Mets." The Wilpons need to show that they aren't the current version of M. Donald Grant, who didn't realize that the game had long passed him by. I feel like this is a very Republican approach to a real problem. Do nothing to solve the problem, but engage in some PR to make it seem like you care. Appease them a bit. The public is too dumb to notice that nothing changed.

d'Kong76 Dec 18 2017 10:23 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The very notion that Jeff is running things has been the worst-case- scenario nightmare for seemingly two decades. Now you want him to speak? I need to call 911...

41Forever Dec 18 2017 10:27 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: 41Forever wrote: 41Forever wrote: If I were advising them, I'd make Jeff available to a couple of the higher-profile writers. Not sure, but I think I just had one of those aneurysm things. Not saying it would be easy. But if he's going to be the guy running the team, he should be out there a little. When the Cubs had a new owner -- and his name escapes me -- and the team was still awful, the new owner walked around the upper deck talking to fans and handing kids little spongy baseballs. I spoke to him briefly and he was nice. Certainly gives the fans a nice impression. It wouldn't hurt the Mets to have the Wilpons do something along those lines. Have Jeff sit with the Seven Line for an inning. Shake hands and pose for some selfies at the old Home Run Apple. Anything that shows the fans that the owners are listening. M. Donald Grant supposedly once said something like, "They players aren't the Mets. Mrs. Payson and I are the Mets." The Wilpons need to show that they aren't the current version of M. Donald Grant, who didn't realize that the game had long passed him by. I feel like this is a very Republican approach to a real problem. Do nothing to solve the problem, but engage in some PR to make it seem like you care. Appease them a bit. The public is too dumb to notice that nothing changed. I thought you were saying that the problem was that the team wasn't transparent enough. I was focusing on the communication problem. Just my 2 cents. Feel free to disagree. And I know you have to throw the elbow in there, but trust me, both sides of the aisle have communications teams to handle public relations.

41Forever Dec 18 2017 10:28 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

d'Kong76 wrote: The very notion that Jeff is running things has been the worst-case- scenario nightmare for seemingly two decades. Now you want him to speak? I need to call 911... Well, Jeff or whomever is running the show. Someone needs to be talking.

Centerfield Dec 18 2017 10:36 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Statements like this are really what I'm alluding to: 41Forever wrote: Teach him to pivot if the questions go to places where you don't want to go. Have Jeff sit with the Seven Line for an inning. Shake hands and pose for some selfies at the old Home Run Apple. Anything that shows the fans that the owners are listening. Never do you say that Jeff Wilpon should address the payroll. Explain why the Mets are hamstrung. Be honest, and provide the fans with an X year plan out of this mess. Pivot off the tough questions. Kiss a few babies and shake a few hands. That should appease the unwashed masses. They won't even notice Jose Reyes starting at 2B.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 18 2017 10:38 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The Wilpons have proven over and over again that taking "their side of the story" to the media only serves to expose them for the vapid ignoramuses they are. They don't how to talk to fans, they're afraid of alienating the masses by playing to the hardcores, and if they're honest to what *they* believe they'll say they think they know what they're doing and understand the fan base and that has no chance of ringing true with the JC Lunchbuckets out there. They should answer questions from veteran reporters though but I think fans expecting to hear anything more than "It's a private process we address on a case-by-case basis" are fooling themselves. Their sin is not transparency or cheapness. It's incompetence!

d'Kong76 Dec 18 2017 10:39 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

41Forever wrote: Someone needs to be talking. No, someone needs to be spending.

41Forever Dec 18 2017 10:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Statements like this are really what I'm alluding to: 41Forever wrote: Teach him to pivot if the questions go to places where you don't want to go. Have Jeff sit with the Seven Line for an inning. Shake hands and pose for some selfies at the old Home Run Apple. Anything that shows the fans that the owners are listening. Never do you say that Jeff Wilpon should address the payroll. Explain why the Mets are hamstrung. Be honest, and provide the fans with an X year plan out of this mess. Pivot off the tough questions. Kiss a few babies and shake a few hands. That should appease the unwashed masses. They won't even notice Jose Reyes starting at 2B. You misunderstood and maybe I wasn’t clear. You have to address fair questions. You pivot from bad questions, not bad topics. He should explain the payroll and the team’s challenges.

d'Kong76 Dec 18 2017 10:52 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

They're not running for office or reporting to their constituency! They're in for life.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 18 2017 11:07 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018 Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 18 2017 11:09 PM

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: The Wilpons ... don't how to talk to fans .... Their sin is not transparency or cheapness. It's incompetence! It's both. The Wilpons probably secretly loathe us, hold us in contempt. We're just peasants to them with some money for them to separate from us. Just dig out that video of Jeff in perpetual sourpuss face telling the media that it's none of their business because the Mets are a privately held company. Real smooth move there. Guanranteed to endear himself to us paupers. Centerfield wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: And six years later, that sentiment is as valid as ever. Not if your Darren Meenan. Today, he feels like this is an issue that should be decided by the voters of Alabama. Yeah, that 7Line statement was utter bullshit. If you know that the Mets are permitting him to use their logos and trademarks, and that the Mets could probably take back those rights on a whim, then you know he's not gonna bite the hand that feeds him. He's just threading the needle. 41Forever wrote: If I were advising them, I'd make Jeff available to a couple of the higher-profile writers.... Teach him to pivot [if] the questions go to places where you don't want to go. It's OK to say that they'll never spend like the Yankees because no one can spend like the Yankees. Spoken like a sleazy politician. Teach Jeff to pivot, i.e., to change the topic, to engage in conversationalist sleight of hand, to bullshit. Because the fans are as dumb as those goobers who're still waiting for their old $50/hr. factory jobs to come back. They'll believe anything. And why can't the Mets spend like the Yankees without incurring any blame for that shortcoming? What? Is Betsy Devos donating hundreds of millions of dollars to the Yankees, too? Not only do the Mets not spend like the Yankees, they're barely outspending the Mariners and the Royals. The Royals, ferchrissakes!

41Forever Dec 18 2017 11:08 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

d'Kong76 wrote: They're not running for office or reporting to their constituency! They're in for life. But it’s a business and they should be trying to keep their customers reasonably happy. That's what M Donald Grant learned the hard way. I’m just saying that if I were working for them, i’d Suggest a different approach.

Gwreck Dec 18 2017 11:29 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

This is the fourth consecutive offseason in which the Mets have enough pitching to legitimately compete but have failed to upgrade offense. The last time the Mets signed a free agent to upgrade offense was Curtis. Note that the Cespedes signings were not upgrades. They were retaining an existing asset. The Mets haven’t ranked as one of the top 5 offenses in the National League since 2006-08 - not coincidentally the best 3 consecutive seasons the team has had this millennium. Now, they have dirt cheap starting pitching up the wazoo (yes, with obvious health caveats) and they are running the risk of a fourth consecutive offseason in which no offensive upgrades have been made. My take is that Alderson does the best he can but nothing gets better without new ownership.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 18 2017 11:38 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Gwreck wrote: My take is that Alderson does the best he can but nothing gets better without new ownership. I think this is obvious. Alderson is a great GM who enters every off-season with both hands tied behind his back, and having to take most of the considerable heat because he has to provide cover for the fucking incompetent Wilpons, while a good chunk of whatever revenue there is, not that we know how much there is, pays back the Madoff debt. Even Howie Megdal gave up.

d'Kong76 Dec 18 2017 11:40 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

41Forever wrote: they should be trying to keep their customers reasonably happy. Having Jeff meet with a few reporters isn't going to make anyone happy.

Edgy MD Dec 18 2017 11:51 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Gwreck wrote: \The last time the Mets signed a free agent to upgrade offense was Curtis. Note that the Cespedes signings were not upgrades. They were retaining an existing asset. That's one way to look at it. But I would add Asdrubal Cabrera and Michael Cuddyer at least, though the latter was unsuccessful. As for needing a guy to direct them on media relations, they got one. He's kinda old and flies with Lefty Specialist and likes to dial with his butt.

Ashie62 Dec 19 2017 12:20 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't really pay any attention to them. Have they never made a shirt that's at all snarky or sarcastic about the Mets? I'm guessing they haven't. It's funny you should ask. Way back in 2011, before their nice cozy deal with the Mets, the 7 Line became famous for this t-shirt. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they are fine with the Wilpons now. I don't give a rat about the 7-Line. I and many here precede them. At this point I'd say they have a conflict of interest.. They are serving two masters. It dont work. Bollocks. NOW GET YELICH!

cooby Dec 19 2017 01:06 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It's both. The Wilpons probably secretly loathe us, hold us in contempt. We're just peasants to them with some money for them to separate from us. Just dig out that video of Jeff in perpetual sourpuss face telling the media that it's none of their business because the Mets are a privately held company. Real smooth move there. Guanranteed to endear himself to us paupers. Sourpuss mode is right!! BS they are private! We need an insurrection!

Nymr83 Dec 19 2017 02:05 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ashie62 wrote: Centerfield wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't really pay any attention to them. Have they never made a shirt that's at all snarky or sarcastic about the Mets? I'm guessing they haven't. It's funny you should ask. Way back in 2011, before their nice cozy deal with the Mets, the 7 Line became famous for this t-shirt. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they are fine with the Wilpons now. I don't give a rat about the 7-Line. I and many here precede them. At this point I'd say they have a conflict of interest.. They are serving two masters. It dont work. Bollocks. NOW GET YELICH! yeah, go give up lots of talent in a trade to get a player at the only positions (either corner outfield spot) where the Mets are pretty much set. that'll solve something.

Centerfield Dec 19 2017 03:11 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Doesn’t he play CF? Did I make that up?

Edgy MD Dec 19 2017 03:14 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

He plays some centerfield. Seeing as there's a lot of buzz the last 24 hours about bringing back Jay Bruce, I'd sure take Yelich as a fake centerfielder over bringing back Brucie for right and shoehorning Conforto back in the the middle.

Nymr83 Dec 19 2017 03:34 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Doesn’t he play CF? Did I make that up? he has played the position if that is what you mean, but at least according to BR he is a negative defender there. Cespedes and Conforto have both played some CF too, and with about as much negativity - but they are both better hitters already under contract. (There is also Nimmo to consider) so if you are willing to play a subpar defender in CF, move one of those guys there and you can get an equivalent hitter to Yelich to play a corner while not costing valuable player resources, only Wilpon's money - but i'd rather get a better defender in CF or spend on another spot really.

Centerfield Dec 19 2017 03:43 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Fair point. Didn’t realize Yelich was subpar in CF. Let’s get JD Martinez!

Centerfield Dec 19 2017 03:58 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Back on point, Craig Calcaterra at NBC joins in. http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2017/12/18/mar ... concerned/

G-Fafif Dec 19 2017 04:16 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Trying to pressure the Wilpons into selling may be less effective than trying to persuade some benevolent billionaire to buy. Rich getting richer real soon. Surely one of them has always wanted to be a sportsman. Let that person/group make the Wilpons an offer they can't refuse. I like the idea of adroitly steering the owner of the Mets out front in quest of accessibility and accountability...but these owners...I've yet to hear them in public where I felt better about the operation after they've expressed themselves. Jeff went on the FAN after the first year at Citi Field (70-92) and took calls with Omar and Francesa. Somebody expressed concern about David's numbers dropping dramatically in the new ballpark, alluding to the outfield dimensions. Jeff made a joke to the effect of, "Whaddaya mean, is he eating too many Shackburgers?" "Aargh," I thought.

Ashie62 Dec 19 2017 04:20 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: He plays some centerfield. Seeing as there's a lot of buzz the last 24 hours about bringing back Jay Bruce, I'd sure take Yelich as a fake centerfielder over bringing back Brucie for right and shoehorning Conforto back in the the middle. Thank you.

metirish Dec 19 2017 02:07 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

This reads like a total shill job http://www.nydailynews.com/amp/sports/b ... ssion=true

Benjamin Grimm Dec 19 2017 02:25 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The word "gamble" or "gambling" appears four times in the article, once in the headline, and once in the photo caption. I think she's making it clear that the Mets are gambling that they can win on the cheap.

Edgy MD Dec 19 2017 02:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

She also makes two references to rolling the dice.

Centerfield Dec 19 2017 02:48 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Yes, but she heavily colors the situation to make it seem far less egregious, and more like a calculated decision. According the Carig, the Wilpons are cheap and disconnected. According to Ackert, the Mets are shrewd, calculating, gambling that their bet will pay off. After all, they have had success before. It’s not out of the realm of possibility it could pay off this season as well. Her message, hey we did great last year, it's the same thing this year. Everything is fine. And when it comes to spending money: Though the Mets won’t say it publicly or on the record, it is obvious they are not going to go out and spend big money on free agents this winter. They spent their big money last year bringing back Yoenis Cespedes, they are betting that with him being healthy next season, their offense isn’t as bad as it looked in 2017. The undertone there is unmistakeable. It's the "Mets" that won't spend money, not the Wilpons. And by the way, just remember, we spent "big money" last year. And we still have Cespedes, so there's reason to be optimistic that the offense will be better. This is spin at its finest. It's the Wilpons that won't spend. Not the "Mets". I'm sure Sandy would spend if you gave him the money. I'm sure Mickey Callaway wouldn't say no to Wade Davis. I'm sure Noah and Jacob and Steven wouldn't kick Yu out of bed. The force that's preventing this from happening is the Wilpons. And they did not spend "big money" last year, on Cespedes or anyone else. Their payroll ranked 12th in baseball despite being top 5 in revenues. They collected insurance on David Wright all season long. This is an outright lie. And it is folly to think the offense will be better if Cespedes is healthy. They lost Bruce, Duda, Granderson and Walker. No player can offset four. And that's why it's a shill job.

Ceetar Dec 19 2017 02:56 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: And it is folly to think the offense will be better if Cespedes is healthy. They lost Bruce, Duda, Granderson and Walker. No player can offset four. Can we stop with this direct comparison to last year? that's not actually how it works. some players will be better, some worse, etc. Granderson was worthless the first 6 weeks or so (thought he was one of the best the rest of the, limited, way) Bruce is 1-dimensional, he's easy to replace. They haven't really lost Walker yet, plus that's part time too. Duda was good but let's not forget that Smith IS highly regarded. Rosario is also high regarded, and hopefully is replacing a lot of garbage Reyes AB. There is some hope Plawecki could add more value than they got at C last year, plus maybe d'Arnaud finds his stroke? sometimes happens late for catchers. Cespedes could play more games. Conforto could play more games. Nimmo complemented by Lagares may actually be an above average CFer. And they're almost definitely going to sign a legit second baseman, so it feels weird to criticize them for not having done so yet. They had the same weighted run creation as a team last year as the Nationals, so the bridge is not that huge.

Ceetar Dec 19 2017 02:59 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

G-Fafif wrote: I do get the feeling the industry is evolving faster than the Mets as constituted know how to keep pace. Perhaps the lack of transparency Carig decries is a symptom of that. There was a time when owners staying in the background was both normal and, juxtaposed versus certain loudmouth types, appreciated. Actions spoke plenty. They still will. I think the industry evolving stuff might actually be (somewhat) on Alderson. There seems to be some desire to not overpay. Is that payroll and budgeting, or simply not paying more than he perceives a guy is worth? Or did the Wilpons hire him because he believes the latter because of the former? Some if it seems wise, not overpaying for relievers, maximizing trade value, but other times, like when an incremental win or two is actually huge (like going from 86->88) he doesn't seem willing to take the shot.

dgwphotography Dec 19 2017 03:00 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I've always had the impression that Fred doesn't love the Mets, but were merely a way for him to climb socially and gain access that he wouldn't have otherwise for his real estate business.

Centerfield Dec 19 2017 03:01 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Also, I think the whole concept of "gambling" centers around the ability to make a conscious decision. Sandy is holding his cards instead of playing them. Sure it's a bit risky, but you know Sandy, he's wild and crazy. This is a much better public perception than "Hey look at poor broke-ass Sandy, waiting around hoping prices fall. Man, someone buy that dude a drink. He looks like he needs one."

Ceetar Dec 19 2017 03:02 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Also, I think the whole concept of "gambling" centers around the ability to make a conscious decision. Sandy is holding his cards instead of playing them. Sure it's a bit risky, but you know Sandy, he's wild and crazy. This is a much better public perception than "Hey look at poor broke-ass Sandy, waiting around hoping prices fall. Man, someone buy that dude a drink. He looks like he needs one." Sometimes I wonder if it's information overload. The opposite of gambling. Right now you 'gamble' on another pitcher but if you wait until he's thrown for 2 months and trade for him, you have much more accurate and current information. You also have a better picture of your own budget and needs.

Edgy MD Dec 19 2017 03:08 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Yeah, I feel like the real gambling doesn't really begin until your money is on the table. There's the "He who hesitates is lost" ethic, so standing by is a gamble of a sort, too, but the metaphor is mixed. It can be argued that folks are angry with the Mets for them being conservative and refusing to gamble.

Ceetar Dec 19 2017 03:13 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: It can be argued that folks are angry with the Mets for them being conservative and refusing to gamble. all acquisition are a gamble, some more so. I'd agree with that statement, but I'd also agree that those same fans, three years down the road, would criticize the Mets for giving money to bad contracts and trapping themselves financially. In fact, I'd say many of the same fans blame Omar for exactly that. My point has always been that the Wilpons and Sandy are acting in a risk-adverse way, so that the team will never again be financially impacted by a Madoff situation. i.e. they never want the Mets to be operating in the red again, so they never want to be at risk of losing the team.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 19 2017 03:16 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I definitely understand the frustration. I feel it too. It appears, for now at least, that the Mets are more or less standing pat after a 70-win season. And sure, if everything goes right, that could lead to a championship season. (That, I think, is the gamble.) But the Mets absolutely should be planning on doing what it takes to make it less of a gamble. On Mets Hot Stove last night, they were saying that the Phillies have plenty of money to spend. I couldn't help but think, "Oh, great! Good for them! Too bad I'm rooting for a middle-market team that somehow plays its home games in New York City."

Edgy MD Dec 19 2017 03:20 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: Edgy MD wrote: It can be argued that folks are angry with the Mets for them being conservative and refusing to gamble. all acquisition are a gamble, some more so. I'd agree with that statement, but I'd also agree that those same fans, three years down the road, would criticize the Mets for giving money to bad contracts and trapping themselves financially. In fact, I'd say many of the same fans blame Omar for exactly that. My point has always been that the Wilpons and Sandy are acting in a risk-adverse way, so that the team will never again be financially impacted by a Madoff situation. i.e. they never want the Mets to be operating in the red again, so they never want to be at risk of losing the team. I agree with most all of that. "Risk-averse" is probably the best description. And beyond it being a philosophy prompted by the team's debt, it may well be one that's at least somewhat reflective of Alderson's sensibility as well.

41Forever Dec 19 2017 03:24 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

And they did not spend "big money" last year, on Cespedes or anyone else. Their payroll ranked 12th in baseball despite being top 5 in revenues. Not for nothing, but 2017 Opening Day payrolls of teams in the postseason (and the Mets), and their rank overall: 1) Dodgers, $242 million 2) MFYs, $201 million 3) Red Sox, $199 million 8) Cubs, $172 million 9) Nationals, $167 million 12) Mets, $155 million 17) Indians, $124.8 million 18) World Champion Astros, $124.3 million 26) Diamondbacks, $93 million Source: [url]https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/heres-every-mlb-teams-opening-day-payroll-for-2017/

Benjamin Grimm Dec 19 2017 03:30 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think we all agree that you can win with a lower payroll, if you happen to be fortunate enough to have a lot of young talent, but to be forced to try to win with a lower payroll imposes a constraint that makes it harder to do so. And that, apparently, is where the Mets are.

Edgy MD Dec 19 2017 03:33 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

But having young talent isn't just (or even mostly) a matter of fortune.

41Forever Dec 19 2017 03:45 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think the Mets have young talent (albeit with health issues) -- Thor, deGrom, Matz, Conforto, Rosario -- but need some solid players to surround themselves with. Is it better to spend a boatload on a Stanton/Pujols/Harper type or get solid mid-level guys like Bruce and Walker to surround them? I kinda liked the way the team was built last season if not for the devastating injuries. (Granted, that's like saying the Titanic was a great ship if not for the problem with icebergs.)

batmagadanleadoff Dec 19 2017 04:11 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think we all agree that you can win with a lower payroll, if you happen to be fortunate enough to have a lot of young talent, but to be forced to try to win with a lower payroll imposes a constraint that makes it harder to do so. And that, apparently, is where the Mets are. Here's what I'd note about the Mets, the Wilpons and young talent: Ever since Fred became the de facto majority owner of the Mets, running things his way (very early 90s) the Mets have had, for the most part and with few exceptions, a dreadful, barren farm system. Which is what they have right now, by the way. There's a simple reason why the Mets, who play in NYC, have just two first place finishes in about 30 years. In addition to the oodles of money the Yankees spend, how the hell did they suddenly assemble all of that awesome young major league talent they currently have, being that they almost always finish a season with what is among the best records in baseball, and thus, pick later rather than earlier in the amateur drafts?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 19 2017 04:22 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

To see people rationalizing the Wilpons by noting that you don't need to have the highest payroll to win, or that the Mets could win with this approach or that approach is infuriating because the Wilpons don't win no matter what they do. They always lose and the Mets are never in the playoffs, not nearly as much as they oughtta be. They may not have Yankee money but they likely have more money than any of their NL East opponents. Two first place finishes in about 30 years, playing in a five team division for the most part, where the Mets are one of the five teams -- meaning that the Mets have only four other division opponents to beat. You can pooh pooh the importance of payroll all you want, but the best Mets squads the Wilpons ever fielded was when they broke into their hermetically sealed piggy bank and splurged for free agents Beltran & Pedro, and paid Carlos Delgado free agent sized money.

Edgy MD Dec 19 2017 04:36 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm sorry to infuriate you. I'm not rationalizing the Wilpons. The Mets don't always lose and are not never in the playoffs. I really hope that observation doesn't infuriate you.

Ashie62 Dec 19 2017 04:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

This is a topic that will clear more as the off season evolves. I am going to try not to speculate and chill.

Edgy MD Dec 19 2017 10:20 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Interestingly, that was beat-writer Carig's first attempt at putting on the columnist hat for Newsday.

Ashie62 Dec 19 2017 10:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Carig certainly planted his flag here.

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 02:20 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

A few guys on twitter are trolling the 7 Line retweeting his stuff from 2011. He brags about wanting to fill the stadium with Sell the Team shirts. Laughs about seeing Jeff Wilpon while wearing one. You know, if you’re going to come out defiant and claim you are a fan that follows blindly and that nothing can be done about it, you better hope that there is no evidence online exposing you as a bullshit artist.

41Forever Dec 20 2017 02:59 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

But since 2011, the team has hosted an All-Star Game, a World Series and the team made the postseason a second time, so it’s also possible his views have changed over six years.

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 03:23 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Possible. But not likely. But I'll humor this. Let's say over the last six years his eyes were opened to the truth and his views did change. If that were true, and he wrote "Hey guys, I know what I said in the past, and it turns out I was dead wrong. The Wilpons are great guys. Here's why..." then I'd listen to him. Hear him out. Maybe he really did have a change of heart. But that's not what he did. Instead, he: 1. Never acknowledged his "Sell the Team" past. Completely ignored it. Pretended that never happened. 2. Attempted to re-write his philosophy as if he felt this way all along. We're a group that's devoted to the Mets, and that's not going to change. Call it blind devotion if you will. That's sports fandom in general. Blind devotion? Really? Look, there are tons of guys out there who view fandom that way. None of them start a brand with "Sell the Team" shirts. None. 3. Characterized any attempts at change as fruitless. Would I love for the payroll to rise and more superstars to land in Queens? Absolutely. Sadly, some things are just out of our control Would I like mass shootings to stop? Do I think it's bad our children are getting shot in school? Absolutely. Sadly, some things are just out of our control 4. Re-cast blame on a much safer target. There is still time for Sandy to make some moves. Let's hope he does more of that, and less of his comic relief with reporters. Why are we even mad at the Wilpons? It's Sandy. He's been too busy working on his comic routine. That's the dude who needs to get his shit together. 5. Shirked responsibility... Not once have I claimed to be the "voice of Mets fans." No one should tell you how to spend your time and/or money. Wait, what's your tagline? For the fans, by the fans Right. 6. ...then just flat out lied. No one should tell you how to spend your time and/or money. SELL THE 7 LINE

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 03:57 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line.

Nymr83 Dec 20 2017 04:37 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line. OR he never hated the Wilpons, saw anti-Wilpon merchandising as his foothold into the T-shirts marketplace, and pivoted into the more stable "team approved" market when he saw the chance. In other words, maybe he is just a guy trying to make $$ and his 'views' on the Wilpons are just whatever is convenient.

Ceetar Dec 20 2017 04:39 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line. The licensing deal came so so much later. He hadn't been selling the 'sell the team' shirt for years before that. the brand changed. Darren doesn't suddenly like the Wilpons, but he did go from fooling around with the t-shirt thing to fully investing in it. And he has addressed it, multiple times. He was a never a rebel leader making shirts in rebellion, it was just a shirt someone suggested, he made it, and they moved on to focus the brand into something else. The same applies to the 'voice of the fans' thing. He's NOT the voice of some fan advocacy group looking out for everyone's best interest, he's just the founder and owner of a t-shirt company that morphed into a group outing close-knit group thing. Some of it, much of it, more out of his control than anything. The licensing deal is with MLB though, not the Mets. (And New Era?) I guess they could pull strings, and certainly pull the kiosk, but it's not like they're Mets employees. It's a loud, vocal, and organized group of Mets fans, but that's it. one group.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 20 2017 04:44 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 20 2017 05:12 AM

Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this? That the Wilpons are OK because the 7Line Guy sez so? Maybe we should ask Jeff Wilpon's mom what she thinks of the Wilpons, next. How even old is the 7Line Guy? Twenty? What? His shilling opinion counts more than yours because he sells Mets t-shirts? And this is some more high comedy nonsense: 41Forever wrote: But since 2011, the team has hosted an All-Star Game.... I'm so impressed. It only took them about 50 years to host one. Has any team gone longer? I mean, Mets fans were born and died without the chance to ever see their Mets host an ASG. If you were honest, and not trying to spin things, your post would say, "since 1964, the Mets hosted an ASG. 49 years after 1964".

Ashie62 Dec 20 2017 04:53 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line. I liked your analysis in your prior post. 7 line certainly appears to be self serving BS artists. Well done.

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 04:54 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line. OR he never hated the Wilpons, saw anti-Wilpon merchandising as his foothold into the T-shirts marketplace, and pivoted into the more stable "team approved" market when he saw the chance. In other words, maybe he is just a guy trying to make $$ and his 'views' on the Wilpons are just whatever is convenient. So self-serving whichever way the wind blows? Lol. I think my characterization is actually kinder.

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 05:03 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this? The point of all this is that I’m seeing how much control the Wilpons have over the conversation. They started SNY and suddenly they have control over the message from the TV media. That station partners with the Daily News and suddenly that outlet is compromised. They bought Metsblog, gave the 7 Line a kiosk and a license, and now those previously outspoken critics all fall in line.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 20 2017 05:08 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this? The point of all this is that I’m seeing how much control the Wilpons have over the conversation. They started SNY and suddenly they have control over the message from the TV media. That station partners with the Daily News and suddenly that outlet is compromised. They bought Metsblog, gave the 7 Line a kiosk and a license, and now those previously outspoken critics all fall in line. That sucks. But that's nothing new. That's the way it is in every sports market. You think you're going to find harsh and sustained criticism of the Yankees on their Yankees channel? The GOP has state TV in Fox News and Sinclair. You ever try watching FOX? I do once in a while just to keep an open mind. I can't last more than seven minutes on that channel. It's non-stop science fiction. And that's a much more serious problem than whether the 7Line Guy is a Wilpon shill or not (he is).

41Forever Dec 20 2017 01:45 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 20 2017 03:01 PM

Centerfield wrote: And it really is amazing how your reaction to everything is to justify and spin. You see liars and you’re drawn to them. You have this irresistible urge to give them a cover story. Me, I just see a guy who hated the Wilpons, got a licensing deal and shut the hell up to protect his bottom line. Wow. Drawn to liars? I think you’re doing the polarization thing. I don’t think he’s a liar and bullshit artist because he sold a t-shirt in 2011. This might be hard to articulate. But I can kind of relate. When you are covering something from the outside and then see things from the inside, it’s very different. There are a lot of things that you didn’t see before, and you can see why this thing might have happened or that thing might have happened. I used to be kind of rigid and see things in black and white. I see a lot of gray these days. A lot of gray. He was selling a t-shirt — one of many designs — as an outsider. He’s probably seeing things differently now that he’s probably on the fringes of being an insider. I don’t hate the Wilpons. I wish they’d do some things differently, and some things really, really differently. But I don’t know why they are doing things. Which is why I urged them to open up a little.

Ceetar Dec 20 2017 02:43 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Who the hell even cares? I mean, what the hell is the point of all of this? That the Wilpons are OK because the 7Line Guy sez so? Maybe we should ask Jeff Wilpon's mom what she thinks of the Wilpons, next. How even old is the 7Line Guy? Twenty? What? His shilling opinion counts more than yours because he sells Mets t-shirts? No, the point is, and Darren's point, is that his opinion means basically nothing and asking him to chime in (and let's be honest, you/they're asking him to chime in with a very specific message that may or may not be his own. But I guess that's okay if he's not the owner right?) because you want him on your side in some fan revolt thing is not his game.

Ceetar Dec 20 2017 03:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Also, don't worry, the Trump tax breaks will undoubtedly benefit the Wilpons immensely and they'll obviously reinvest those savings in the Mets, just like all the big corporations will reinvest in their product and employees.

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 03:52 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Steve Phillips comes to the defense of the Wilpons. In doing so basically admits they diverted Mets money to private debt. https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball ... 1.15531742

Ceetar Dec 20 2017 04:08 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I know he ran the team 15 years ago, but I really don't want to hear anything from Steve Phillips, especially not this tongue bathing.

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 05:44 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think on that I can agree with you! But I'm glad that there is conversation. Maybe this will spur some spending. Plenty of time left in this off-season to do some damage.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 20 2017 07:29 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Fangraphs on YOUR 2018 Mets: https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-met ... portunity/ Last year, the Mets opened the season with a $155 million payroll. That might seem substantial. In one way, it was: the 2017 payroll represented a $20 million increase from 2016, which itself represented a $30 million increase over 2015, which was also a $15 million increase over 2014. A steadily rising payroll in a vacuum, seems positive. Once you consider how cheaply the Mets were run after the Madoff scandal, though — and factor in the New York market, the extra television revenue, and an average attendance of roughly 2.5 million fans — that $155 million payroll isn’t so great. The Mets nearly reached that mark back in 2009. While MLB payrolls have increased more than 50% over that time, the Mets’ spending figures trended downward for much of that interval. The club also traded away $10 million in 2017 while almost certainly recouping a significant portion of David Wright‘s $20 million salary through insurance. Putting it together, the Mets are running a below-average payroll in the massive New York market. The Mets are at a point on the win curve at which adding wins is incredibly valuable for their playoff chances. They sit about 10 games behind the Nationals right now, maybe even less if you lean towards ZiPS’ projections on Smith and Rosario. The gap is large, but not large enough to where it couldn’t be easily overcome with a few solid moves.

Centerfield Dec 20 2017 11:05 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Sounds fair. This part hits home. It’s easy to look at what the Marlins are doing with regard to their payroll and call it an embarrassment. What the Mets are doing is arguably worse. The franchise put out a winning product for a couple years and now appear willing to pocket the goodwill the fanbase has shown. The team has been outspent by the Kansas City Royals over the last four seasons and it looks like that won’t change in 2018, either, even as Kansas City enters what’s likely to be a rebuilding phase.

Nymr83 Dec 21 2017 12:01 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Sounds fair. This part hits home. It’s easy to look at what the Marlins are doing with regard to their payroll and call it an embarrassment. What the Mets are doing is arguably worse. The franchise put out a winning product for a couple years and now appear willing to pocket the goodwill the fanbase has shown. The team has been outspent by the Kansas City Royals over the last four seasons and it looks like that won’t change in 2018, either, even as Kansas City enters what’s likely to be a rebuilding phase. I pretty much agree with the article - this is the window with Thor, deGrom, Conforto*, Cespedes - fucking take it. *ok, the window with him is likely much longer the one part i don't agree with is the Marlins part - the Marlins are far more embarrassing because 1) this is their 3rd fire sale in 20 years - they are a PERPETUAL joke 2) they actively sought to lose, trading away good players under team control 3) worse than Wilpon losing his shirt to Madoff is a NEW ownership group allowed to buy a team to gut it - this is embarrassing not just to one franchise but to the league as a whole 4) Jeter.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 21 2017 12:53 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: the one part i don't agree with is the Marlins part - the Marlins are far more embarrassing because 1) this is their 3rd fire sale in 20 years - they are a PERPETUAL joke I wouldn't go there. The Marlins have two WS titles in 20 years. The Mets have two first place finishes in 30 years. And last I looked, the Marlins don't play in NYC. In fact, they play in one of the shittiest baseball markets in all of baseball, in an era where markets matter because money matters and the market determines how much revenue a team can generate. The Marlins simply don't draw crowds, even with Stanton and Jose Fernandez and another half dozen or so exciting and promising young players and one of baseball's newest and most innovative stadiums in baseball. Two first place finishes in 30 years is really, all you need to know to understand what an unmitigated disaster the Wilpons are as baseball owners. It's the Cliffs Notes version of analysis, but it's good enough.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 21 2017 03:24 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Not that it's much better, but it's THREE first-place finishes in thirty years: 1988, 2006, and 2015.

Nymr83 Dec 21 2017 03:48 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Not that it's much better, but it's THREE first-place finishes in thirty years: 1988, 2006, and 2015. Better than what? The Marlins? We also have 2 or 3 wildcards while they have just the two, but they got luckier in the postseason

Edgy MD Dec 21 2017 03:51 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

A post invisible to your eyes declared the Mets to have garnered two first-place finishes in the previous 30 years.

Nymr83 Dec 21 2017 03:57 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: A post invisible to your eyes declared the Mets to have garnered two first-place finishes in the previous 30 years. Ah. Two more than Hillary, then.

41Forever Dec 21 2017 04:04 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think the Marlins have actually had four fire sales. One after each of the championships, one where they purged Reyes, Mark Burhle and even Ozzie and now this one. And our home run apple is better than the Art Deco dancing fish sculpture, though that is really cool to watch.

Nymr83 Dec 21 2017 04:34 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

i didnt even think of the 2012-2013 when Reyes left along with Buhrle and others in that one trade with Toronto and Hanley signing elsewhere, Lee retiring. but you're right that was yet another instance.

Edgy MD Dec 21 2017 04:37 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

That statue is a lot of things, but it ain't Art Deco.

Ashie62 Dec 21 2017 05:35 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The New York Mets are investing in the New Islanders to be built complex in the Belmont Parking lot. We are so so screwed. This angers me.

Frayed Knot Dec 21 2017 10:25 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 21 2017 08:53 PM

Well the Mets aren't investing here, the Wilpons are, or, more accurately, Sterling Equity which makes sense seeing as how they're in the building/real estate business. Not sure how this means that 'we' (not even quite sure who the 'we' is here) are screwed. ... the $1 billion redevelopment of Belmont Park will be privately funded by the Islanders and the Oak View Group, whose investors include Madison Square Garden Co., owned by James Dolan, and Mets owner Sterling Equities, which was founded by Fred Wilpon.

Lefty Specialist Dec 21 2017 02:16 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The Wilpons were booed at the press conference.

Ceetar Dec 21 2017 02:25 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Frayed Knot wrote: Not sure how this means that 'we' (not even quite sure who the 'we' is here) are screwed. . the implications are, i think, that if they can afford to make new investments they can't be as cashed strapped as we're claiming they are that they need to pilfer (an undisclosed, private amount of) profits from the Mets/SNY and they should've just sunk that investment money into the Mets.

Ashie62 Dec 21 2017 02:44 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Frayed Knot wrote: Well the Mets aren't investing here, the Wilpons are, or, more accurately, Sterling Equity which makes sense seeing as how they're in the building/real estate business. Not sure how this means that 'we' (not even quite sure who the 'we' is here) are screwed. ... the $1 billion redevelopment of Belmont Park will be privately funded by the Islanders and the Oak View Group, whose investors include Madison Square Garden Co., owned by James Dolan, and Mets owner Sterling Equities, which was founded by Fred Wilpon. To coin a phrase I would hope Sterling to "Make the Mets great again." This is lending for sure. Sterling had choices. Seems like an all in for the new complex before us. God save the Islanders, I like them.

Edgy MD Dec 21 2017 03:06 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Not sure how this means that 'we' (not even quite sure who the 'we' is here) are screwed. . The implications are, i think, that if they can afford to make new investments they can't be as cashed strapped as we're claiming they are that they need to pilfer (an undisclosed, private amount of) profits from the Mets/SNY and they should've just sunk that investment money into the Mets. The Wilpons do continue to invest the Mets. When the team sold off minority shares, it was members of the Wilpons and their companies (like SNY) that bought in. That was a cash infusion. Unfortunately for payroll watchers, a lot of that cash went to pay off many of the team's non-payroll obligations, which is the ongoing issue. But liquidating one or leveraging one asset to invest in another is what guys like this do. This is probably a good point to get into this scheme (or they see it as such), and they probably think it'll help the Mets down the road. Whether it will is another story. I think the reality the last few years has that there's a level of debt service the organization has had to prioritize before expanding payroll, and they have to get budget approval by their creditors. That may have eased during the periods of success in recent years, but (and I'm going deeper into speculation here), restrictions may have returned following 2017's declining success and declining revenues.

Nymr83 Dec 21 2017 03:32 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Assuming that the Wilpons' know their real estate business (and I'd assume that, they made their money there) why is the Islanders thing at Belmont bad for the Mets? at worst, its neutral for the Mets if the Wilpons plan to keep the profits over at Sterling. At best, its good for the Mets if its profitable and helps the Wilpons pay off debts that they are now allegedly paying off through Mets' money

Centerfield Dec 21 2017 03:48 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't know that what you're saying is correct. My understanding is that the "team" cannot sell any shares in itself. The team, the Mets are the asset, not the owners. The Wilpons sold minority shares in the Mets. And the Wilpons (Fred and Jeff) sold them to other Wilpon family members, SNY and Dave Einhorn. The cash infusion that such sale generated went toward paying down the loan from MLB, and paying down some of the debt to Bank of America. The reason that there was a loan from MLB and a crippling loan from Bank of America is because the Wilpons leveraged the Mets. They took out loans against the revenue the team derives. If they lost $70 million, as Fred claimed at the time, it's because of the crippling debt he placed upon the Mets when the Wilpons took out loans. Those proceeds of those loans were used to make Madoff payments.

Ceetar Dec 21 2017 04:02 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Those proceeds of those loans were used to make Madoff payments. They were also made because Wilpon money tied up in Madoff-associated accounts was untouchable due the lawsuit. There was a cashflow aspect of it. Even today, we have no idea how much the Wilpons actually lost to Madoff, and how much of that was actual cash versus expected return on investments that they budgeted for.

G-Fafif Dec 21 2017 08:57 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Sherman says Mets have set a ~$135 million payroll for 2018 -- because contending isn't really something they imagine happening. The opening payroll number will be roughly $20 million less in 2018, a concession that the rotation might never be the powerhouse they hoped it'd be. That realization, in conjunction with other factors, has lowered the Mets' internal assessment of their playoff chances from this time last year. And, thus, lowered how much the Wilpons and Saul Katz are willing to invest in the roster. They have not surrendered to a rebuild, banking in particular that Mickey Callaway, Dave Eiland an upgraded devotion to preparing and monitoring their pitchers will allow the Mets to rebound toward 85-plus wins. But there also will not be a significant offseason splurge. Sandy Alderson has roughly $10 million remaining to spend on free agents or trades and can expand that to a larger amount if he can, say, deal someone such as Juan Lagares or AJ Ramos. The way the Mets have operated under Wilpon ownership is that the GM receives a general payroll number -- this year it will be in the mid-$130 millions, from what I have decduced in conversations with people inside and outside the organization. But the Wilpons then tell their GM to come to them with any deal he likes regardless of cost and sell the merits, and that leaves open the possibility of increasing payroll. But, again, that sales job is easier to make in years when the leadership believes it has a strong contender.

Ceetar Dec 21 2017 09:04 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

lol, I put roughly zero faith in Sherman's deduction capabilities sourced by people inside AND OUTSIDE? the organization. And then he basically contradicts himself by admitting it's a soft budget. Like, if Sandy can't convince the Wilpons Neil Walker basically pays for himself in wins, he's worthless.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 21 2017 09:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm a lot more sympathetic to sherm than most here but I found that article required better sourcing. I'm pretty sure the difference between last year and this is that we wound up with Walker and Bruce and probably didn't need to. I don't believe the opinion of the awesomeness of the pitchers changed so much, we certainly had questions going in last year too, or should have had.

Centerfield Dec 22 2017 02:21 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Meanwhile Sandy is on record saying that the Mets would have a "healthy" budget this year. I don't know. I don't think Sandy would put himself out there like that if the budget were falling by $20 million. I mean, we can argue over what is "healthy". I mean, I would consider top 5 to be healthy for a NY team, but I imagine that at the very least you'd have to be in the top half to make a credible argument. I guess we have no idea, but I just don't see the payroll falling that much.

Nymr83 Dec 22 2017 02:28 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Meanwhile Sandy is on record saying that the Mets would have a "healthy" budget this year. I don't know. I don't think Sandy would put himself out there like that if the budget were falling by $20 million. I mean, we can argue over what is "healthy". I mean, I would consider top 5 to be healthy for a NY team, but I imagine that at the very least you'd have to be in the top half to make a credible argument. I guess we have no idea, but I just don't see the payroll falling that much. Healthy depends on more than just the market. the needs of the team, and what is available, matter - with degrom, syndergaard, conforto (and the team believes in Rosario and Smith) under team control for cheap "healthy" doesnt need to be top 5 for me at all. if the Mets were to go out and add Yu Darvish, Lorenzo Cain, another reliever, and a right-handed complement to Smith i'd consider the offseason a rousing success, and they'd still be nowhere near top 5 but they'd have a 'healthy' budget. 'healthy' to me for a NY team means "the budget isn't a constraint on acquiring the players who are available that meet our needs". right now, i'd say the Mets arent meeting that threshold.

Centerfield Dec 22 2017 02:38 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: Centerfield wrote: Meanwhile Sandy is on record saying that the Mets would have a "healthy" budget this year. I don't know. I don't think Sandy would put himself out there like that if the budget were falling by $20 million. I mean, we can argue over what is "healthy". I mean, I would consider top 5 to be healthy for a NY team, but I imagine that at the very least you'd have to be in the top half to make a credible argument. I guess we have no idea, but I just don't see the payroll falling that much. Healthy depends on more than just the market. the needs of the team, and what is available, matter - with degrom, syndergaard, conforto (and the team believes in Rosario and Smith) under team control for cheap "healthy" doesnt need to be top 5 for me at all. if the Mets were to go out and add Yu Darvish, Lorenzo Cain, another reliever, and a right-handed complement to Smith i'd consider the offseason a rousing success, and they'd still be nowhere near top 5 but they'd have a 'healthy' budget. 'healthy' to me for a NY team means "the budget isn't a constraint on acquiring the players who are available that meet our needs". right now, i'd say the Mets arent meeting that threshold. Fair. I certainly don't condone spending just for the sake of spending. I would say so long as the team is capable of putting a team reasonably expected to win around 95 games and compete for a division championship, I'd be ok with that.

Ashie62 Dec 22 2017 02:23 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

How about Matz and Conforto for Yelich. Any thoughts?

Ceetar Dec 22 2017 02:32 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ashie62 wrote: How about Matz and Conforto for Yelich. Any thoughts? yes, but it's Christmas so I won't voice them.

Nymr83 Dec 22 2017 03:06 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ashie62 wrote: How about Matz and Conforto for Yelich. Any thoughts? if Sandy gave up Conforto for Yelich straight up, I'd lead the way to Citi with the torches and pitchforks

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 22 2017 03:19 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

That would be a tough deal for either side to make. As I mentioned in another thread, Yelich is the kind of guy they intend to collect 2 or 3 very good prospects for. Matz is basically damaged goods, and needs to re-establish himself before he'll be worth anything. Losing Conforto for Yelich defeats the purpose from our perspective anyway. I don't believe the Mets can get him unless they unload what remains of the farm.

Nymr83 Dec 22 2017 03:38 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Conforto is a year and half younger with more years of cheaper team control remaining. he was already the better hitter last year. why would that be at all tough for the Marlins? it would be a terribly dumb decision by the Mets.

Vic Sage Dec 22 2017 03:50 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

healthy' to me for a NY team means "the budget isn't a constraint on acquiring the players who are available that meet our needs". this.

Ashie62 Dec 22 2017 11:02 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: Conforto is a year and half younger with more years of cheaper team control remaining. he was already the better hitter last year. why would that be at all tough for the Marlins? it would be a terribly dumb decision by the Mets. Not if Conforto pops his capsule again. Beyond that JCL kinda hit the nail on this.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 24 2017 12:58 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Mike Vaccaro of the Post continues the drumbeat. A simple solution for Wilpons if they hate owning Mets so much

MFS62 Dec 24 2017 03:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Mike Vaccaro of the Post continues the drumbeat. A simple solution for Wilpons if they hate owning Mets so much That isn't the first, and probably not the last, article like that. This entire thread is about how much money the Wilpons will or won't spend on the team. Fans suggesting they sell the the team is a logical request if they won't. Later

Edgy MD Dec 24 2017 05:08 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm not comfortable with the article being built on a premise (the Wilpons hate owning the Mets) that the author feels no obligation to establish, instead relying on "let him come out and show me it's not true." It kind of stinks of President-Obama-was-born-in-Kenya logic.

Centerfield Dec 24 2017 05:47 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I disagree. The premise has been set in an article by his colleague. If you want to challenge his source that is one thing, but Vaccaro is not assuming a premise. It says Fred was irate, that this continues a pattern of hand-wringing, and that he is surprised and dismayed every time the Yanks go big. Which frankly, is all the friggin time. And frankly I’m ok with calling out the Wilpons. Let them answer for their actions.

41Forever Dec 24 2017 06:08 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

That's a ridiculous hit piece. He's basing his comments on an "industry source," which is so vague that it means nothing. Vaccaro demands accountability from the Wilpons while exhibiting none of it himself. I see no evidence that the Wilpons "detest" the fans. That's nonsense. Object to how they spend their money, or not spend their money. That's fine. But show me how they detest their fans. As I said earlier in the thread, I'd still recommend that they become more visible and start talking to the media a little more. That might go a ways toward explaining why things the way they are.

Centerfield Dec 24 2017 06:49 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

He has reached out to the Wilpons for comment but they have refused to comply. Does that mean Vaccaro cannot write about them?

41Forever Dec 24 2017 07:18 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: He has reached out to the Wilpons for comment but they have refused to comply. Does that mean Vaccaro cannot write about them? He absolutely can write about them. But when he hangs the central premise of his column on something like “an industry source” he should be held accountable for what he writes. If that belief is so widespread, then he should be able to find someone who will go on the record to say something. That makes for a stronger column, and then the focus is on the merits of what the is saying rather than the accuracy of it. If I was advising them on who to talk to, I wouldn’t start with the guy who calls part of his column “Vack’s Whacks” because that makes me think I wouldn’t get a fair shake. If he wants to write a column saying its frustrating that no one from the family is talking to the media or anyone else, that’s a fair statement. But if he’s going to make wild claims that the Wilpon’s hate owning the team and detest fans, then he needs to find a stronger source for that than an unnamed “industry source.”

Centerfield Dec 24 2017 07:34 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Fair. I think the article was meant to further the discussion, and he probably feels pressure to do more than just regurgitate Carig’s thoughts from a week ago. I don’t think the Wilpons really detest the fans or owning the team. In fact, I bet they love owning the Mets. But just have no clue how to do it effectively. The “detest the fans” mantra is clearly overstated. But they do seem to have a disregard unusual for owners. That loyalty oath they asked for years ago was part of it. The comment that they would spend more if people bought more tickets furthered this. It doesn’t work that way. You commit to winning. You put a great product on the field, then the fans show up. Even last year the Mets fans did their part.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 24 2017 07:42 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 24 2017 07:45 PM

If you're in the fancy seats, the Wilpons made sure you get a urinal divider if you have to take a piss. The peasants could piss all over themselves and on each other for all the Wilpons care, because if you're not in the fancy sections, you ain't getting a urinal divider.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 24 2017 07:44 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

batmagadanleadoff wrote: If you're in the fancy seats, the Wilpons made sure you get a urinal divider if you have to take a piss. The peasants could piss all over themselves and on each other for all the Wilpons care, because if you're not in the fancy sections, you ain't getting a urinal divider. That's probably how the Wilpons were able to sign Yoenis: from all the money they saved on urinal dividers.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 24 2017 07:47 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Two first place finishes since 1988. As if anything else needs to be said.

41Forever Dec 24 2017 07:48 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Fair. I think the article was meant to further the discussion, and he probably feels pressure to do more than just regurgitate Carig’s thoughts from a week ago. I don’t think the Wilpons really detest the fans or owning the team. In fact, I bet they love owning the Mets. But just have no clue how to do it effectively. The “detest the fans” mantra is clearly overstated. But they do seem to have a disregard unusual for owners. That loyalty oath they asked for years ago was part of it. The comment that they would spend more if people bought more tickets furthered this. It doesn’t work that way. You commit to winning. You put a great product on the field, then the fans show up. Even last year the Mets fans did their part. I don’t disagree with you at all. So many things they’ve said have been clumsy and ham-fisted — at best. They are either getting bad advice, or are not listening to good advice.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 24 2017 07:52 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The Wilpons care so much for their fans that in a city that's closing in on a population of nine million, they built a 40,000 seat stadium. But what am I talking About? The team's so chronically disappointing, no one bothers to go to their games.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 24 2017 07:56 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

And they didn't get Giancarlo because they're saving up for a Tom Seaver statue.

Ashie62 Dec 24 2017 08:17 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

41Forever wrote: Centerfield wrote: Fair. I think the article was meant to further the discussion, and he probably feels pressure to do more than just regurgitate Carig’s thoughts from a week ago. I don’t think the Wilpons really detest the fans or owning the team. In fact, I bet they love owning the Mets. But just have no clue how to do it effectively. The “detest the fans” mantra is clearly overstated. But they do seem to have a disregard unusual for owners. That loyalty oath they asked for years ago was part of it. The comment that they would spend more if people bought more tickets furthered this. It doesn’t work that way. You commit to winning. You put a great product on the field, then the fans show up. Even last year the Mets fans did their part. I don’t disagree with you at all. So many things they’ve said have been clumsy and ham-fisted — at best. They are either getting bad advice, or are not listening to good advice. Thoughtful and true to the core.

Edgy MD Dec 24 2017 08:24 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: I disagree. The premise has been set in an article by his colleague. If you want to challenge his source that is one thing, but Vaccaro is not assuming a premise. Sure he is. Puma's claim is that Fred was angry at the Yankees, but not that Fred (or his son or brother-in-law) hated owning the Mets. That's Vaccaro's own notion there. If it were true, then sure, encourage him to let go of his misery. But Vacarro's asking us to jump from "Fred got angry when the Yankees grabbed a big contract" to "Fred hates owning the Mets."

Benjamin Grimm Dec 24 2017 09:04 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I WISH he hated owning the Mets.

Centerfield Dec 24 2017 10:15 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: Centerfield wrote: I disagree. The premise has been set in an article by his colleague. If you want to challenge his source that is one thing, but Vaccaro is not assuming a premise. Sure he is. Puma's claim is that Fred was angry at the Yankees, but not that Fred (or his son or brother-in-law) hated owning the Mets. That's Vaccaro's own notion there. If it were true, then sure, encourage him to let go of his misery. But Vacarro's asking us to jump from "Fred got angry when the Yankees grabbed a big contract" to "Fred hates owning the Mets." I think a more general misery is implied by that article. Had some line about an established pattern of hand wringing or something like that. But your point is taken. I don’t think anyone really thinks Wilpon hates owning the Mets. I think the article is more of a blow across the bow aimed at them. Anyway. I like that he is calling them out. Sometimes you need some friends with less than stellar ethics to effectuate rebellion!

Centerfield Dec 26 2017 02:36 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Meanwhile, our rivals continue to spend. Nationals 2018 payroll expected to be around $210 million. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/nat ... a4bcca20fb Per Forbes, the Washington Nationals have revenue that is lower than the Mets.

Ceetar Dec 27 2017 01:34 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Wilpons like the stereotypical ideal of a New Yorker, and ascribe that person Mets fandom. But they're rich folk who prefer other rich folk and I'm sure wish poorer people well but don't think have a hand in why they're struggling. It's part of the reason I don't want to hear from them, because there would be a lot of rich white male republican drivel in there. But they LOVE owning the team. that's been established and quoted by people on the record many many many times and to infer the opposite with no sourcing is just dumb.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 27 2017 02:25 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Not a valid word.

Centerfield Dec 27 2017 02:39 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

You wonder if Fred gets mad when he hears a report that the Nationals intent to exceed the luxury tax. The Nats' spending has much more of an effect on the Mets' fate than anything that happens across town. If he blows up at the Yankees, but doesn't notice the Nats, then he's all sorts of fucked up. And I'm not saying that's what he feels, but that it would show a lot about his priorities. On a different note, I think if the Mets do intend to spend this winter, it's important to come out and refute all of these stories. One of the things that makes a team attractive to a free agent is that they will spend money to surround that free agent with other talent to win. I would guess that is a large part of why Eric Hosmer would rather not return to KC, he doesn't want to be the only one left after everyone leaves. I think right now it would be a tough sell to any free agent signing with the Mets. How could you convince him sign on during the era when the starting pitching will start to walk away?

Edgy MD Dec 27 2017 02:47 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

You assure him personally. Or better yet, you just do it. Sign deGrom (and maybe Syndergaard) to an extension and tell him if he signs right now he can share the podium at the press conference, shaking hands with a favorite son. I think announcing an intent to spend money is a losing play. For one, it gives agents the upper hand. "I got the same offer from Seattle, Sandy, and I KNOW you've got more money because your owner has been talking out of school." For two, money talks and bullshit walks.

Centerfield Dec 27 2017 03:05 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: You assure him personally. Or better yet, you just do it. Sign deGrom (and maybe Syndergaard) to an extension and tell him if he signs right now he can share the podium at the press conference, shaking hands with a favorite son. I think announcing an intent to spend money is a losing play. For one, it gives agents the upper hand. "I got the same offer from Seattle, Sandy, and I KNOW you've got more money because your owner has been talking out of school." For two, money talks and bullshit walks. Sure. Spending money is the best move. The Yankees and Dodgers never have to announce their intent to spend. Spending is assumed. This is part of what makes them so attractive to free agents. They know that they will never have to be "the man". Look at the Ellsbury contract. It's a complete albatross on the Mets. "Jason Bay 2.0" On the Yankees, it's barely a footnote. But other teams without this history seem to make their intent public. When the Cubs went on their spending spree, they broadcast it all around. Made it clear that they intended to build a winner for years to come. And now the Nats are doing the same. Sending out signals that they intent to exceed the luxury cap for a second straight year. Think about it from the player's standpoint. Team A has just won the division. They have a top tier payroll and have announced that they intend to exceed the luxury tax again. Their ace was signed to a big free agent contract, and their young stud pitcher was just signed long term. Their big hitter is up for free agency next year but they have publicly stated that they will make every effort to retain him. Team B has just lost 90 games. They have a mid-tier payroll and indications are that they intend to scale back. The team has not refuted these reports. They have an arsenal of young pitching, but have signed no one long term. There are two good hitters in their lineup and one of them is hurt. If the money is the same, which team do you pick?

Benjamin Grimm Dec 27 2017 03:08 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I have no doubt that the Mets were a significantly more attractive destination to free agents after the 2015 and 2016 seasons than they are now.

41Forever Dec 27 2017 03:20 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't know if the constant Yankee comparisons are valid. They're a global brand with a revenue stream that 29 other teams would kill to have. It's well known that they can hide their bad contracts better than any other team can. That's nothing new. Who had the line years ago that rooting for the Yankees was like rooting for U.S. Steel? We're in the biggest market in the nation, but we share it with the sport's 800-pound gorilla. And I've not been to the new stadium -- so correct me if I'm wrong -- but I've heard the prices there are just insane, and it's a stadium built for those rich, white male Republicans that Ceetar hates.

Centerfield Dec 27 2017 03:21 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I have no doubt that the Mets were a significantly more attractive destination to free agents after the 2015 and 2016 seasons than they are now. Agreed. And that's why I think it's important to change the atmosphere around the Mets. Hey, we know we had a tough season, but we have a lot of talent that is coming back healthy in 2018. We did some house-cleaning and we are prepared to field a championship level team. We are looking for the right guys to join us on this ride, because our goal is to win the World Series. Sandy, did you read the report that you intend to slash payroll by $20 million? Joel Sherman... Any reporter claiming to know what our budget will be is wrong. I'm not even sure what it will be. I can tell you that we are committed to winning above anything else, and that we have the means to fill our needs. If you look at our history, payroll has steadily increased. I don't know where it will end up, but I see no reason why it couldn't increase further, if we found the right players. Just like that, the perception improves.

Centerfield Dec 27 2017 03:29 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't know if the constant Yankee comparisons are valid. They're a global brand with a revenue stream that 29 other teams would kill to have. It's well known that they can hide their bad contracts better than any other team can. That's nothing new. Who had the line years ago that rooting for the Yankees was like rooting for U.S. Steel? We're in the biggest market in the nation, but we share it with the sport's 800-pound gorilla. And I've not been to the new stadium -- so correct me if I'm wrong -- but I've heard the prices there are just insane, and it's a stadium built for those rich, white male Republicans that Ceetar hates. I will say this. To anyone saying that the Mets should spend like a big market team, there is no dumber counter argument than "It's not like they're the Yankees". It's infuriating. Not once, ever have I said the Mets should spend like the Yankees. We know that they are not the Yankees. Can we put that issue to bed and not raise it again? It's so fucking aggravating. One of these days, this will be the reason I end up in jail. Read the posts again. To summarize. Me: The Mets should publicly announce an intent to spend. They need to change this public image. It's not attractive to free agents. Edgy: The best way to do this is to actually spend. Announcing an intent to spend is counterproductive. Me: Sure, actually spending is the best way. This is what the Yankees and Dodgers do. But because the Mets are not the Yankees and Dodgers, they should announce their intent. Like the Cubs and Nationals. You: You know, it's not fair to compare the Mets and Yankees. Me: Fighting the urge to murder.

41Forever Dec 27 2017 03:42 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Agreed. And that's why I think it's important to change the atmosphere around the Mets. Hey, we know we had a tough season, but we have a lot of talent that is coming back healthy in 2018. We did some house-cleaning and we are prepared to field a championship level team. We are looking for the right guys to join us on this ride, because our goal is to win the World Series. Sandy, did you read the report that you intend to slash payroll by $20 million? Joel Sherman... Any reporter claiming to know what our budget will be is wrong. I'm not even sure what it will be. I can tell you that we are committed to winning above anything else, and that we have the means to fill our needs. If you look at our history, payroll has steadily increased. I don't know where it will end up, but I see no reason why it couldn't increase further, if we found the right players. Just like that, the perception improves. I agree totally. That's why I've been saying the Mets have a communications issue.

Ceetar Dec 27 2017 05:30 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

99.9% of all signings are motivated by money. Neil Walker isn't sitting on multiple offers waiting to see which other free agents sign or which teams pitch him the best future. He's waiting for the best offer than contacting other teams to try to get them to top it. It's why the Yankees (And often the Mets too) are linked to many free agents. It's why Carlos Beltran and Scott Boras floated a "Wants to be a Yankee" quote, to try to get the Yankees to offer something so they could then come back to the Mets again and get them to try to top that. Boras was sitting in a puddle of drool imagining both NY teams getting into a bidding war. And no one would believe the Wilpons anyway. (Though everyone's quick to believe veiled allusions by Alderson that they'll spend _less_) no second basemen have signed. Reliever fodder is a dime a dozen and you can literally always find a reliever at any time of year. The Mets also need some sort of 1B/OF depth signing, but they're stuck in that place of wanting a guy but not wanting to really guarantee him any playing time because they're really hoping Smith and Conforto play at least 140 games. I guess you could take a talented guy and way overpay him and then not use him. There's your "spend freely" argument, particularly if it's just a one-year deal on some guy. But that's still sorta a niche role that players probably hold on to offers and hope someone sees them as something fulltime.

Ashie62 Dec 28 2017 05:00 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The Yankees have made two high level internationals. Sandy is not Cashman. Yankees use their "proprietary" model and retooled to compete for a Championship. The Mets need to be aggressive suitors to sign a J.D. Martinez in the OF & an Eric Hosmer at 1B. Fred Wilpon, if you want to fill your playhouse with fans you INVEST first. Then you WIN, and then you PROFIT. I see the Twins and Brewers as smaller market teams investing in this way. I could see a Yankees v. Brewers (not Dodgers) WS. The Mets cannot compete at that level in 2018. I will eat my ticket money and NOT go to Citifield ONCE in 2018. I kinda hope this "boycott" catches on and a June Tuesday at home has 8,000 fannies at Citi where 6,000 are the Stoopid not in reality 7 Line gang. FANS FIRST IN 2018 Bring it on.

Ashie62 Dec 28 2017 05:06 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Suck it Fred. [url]https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mets-owner-fred-wilpon-is-reportedly-furious-the-yankees-added-giancarlo-stanton/

MFS62 Dec 28 2017 12:59 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Its all still different lazy reporters talking or writing about Puma's article (with a mention of Bernie Madoff thrown in) in order to fill column inches or air time. They proudly say the same thing in different ways like they just created a new life form. Feh. If you can predict the future or what somebody is going to do, call your broker or get your ass to Las Vegas and make some real money. Let's see what happens. Later

Edgy MD Dec 28 2017 01:07 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Well, the article is a week old.

Centerfield Dec 28 2017 02:07 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

You know what else sucks about the lack of faith in spending? It kills message board discussion. All of our “Let’s talk about X” threads have slipped to the second page. We have no idea who is even worth discussing. Sandy might have $10 million or $50 million to spend. Maybe we need John Ricco to do another interview and tell us again they will be in on the big name free agents.

Nymr83 Dec 28 2017 02:23 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

maybe we should just discuss what we want the team to do anyway?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 28 2017 04:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: I will say this. To anyone saying that the Mets should spend like a big market team, there is no dumber counter argument than "It's not like they're the Yankees". It's infuriating. Not once, ever have I said the Mets should spend like the Yankees. We know that they are not the Yankees. Can we put that issue to bed and not raise it again? It's so fucking aggravating. One of these days, this will be the reason I end up in jail. I know. People say the Mets don't have Yankees money to justify the Mets spending at less than KC Royal levels. But we should accept that Fred Wilpon could be as terrrble an owner as he possibly can so long as there's at least one other owner who's even worse. I guess it would be delusional to have a realistic conversation about the Mets signing Bryce Harper after next season, right?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 28 2017 04:56 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Wilpons care so much for their fans that in a city that's closing in on a population of nine million, they built a 40,000 seat stadium. But what am I talking About? The team's so chronically disappointing, no one bothers to go to their games. If he cared about the fans, he'd sell one of his office buildings and the Madoff debt might be done with. But he couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans. He wants to eat his fucking cake, too. Instead, he'll ride out the financial crisis even if it means keeping the Mets in mediocrity for as long as it takes for the debt to be paid back with Mets baseball revenue, knowing full well he's covered because the value of the franchise is rising to astronomical proportions. If the Marlins are worth a billion, what the hell is the NYC NL franchise worth?

Ceetar Dec 28 2017 05:02 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

batmagadanleadoff wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Wilpons care so much for their fans that in a city that's closing in on a population of nine million, they built a 40,000 seat stadium. But what am I talking About? The team's so chronically disappointing, no one bothers to go to their games. If he cared about the fans, he'd sell one of his office buildings and the Madoff debt might be done with. But he couldn't give a flying fuck about the fans. He wants to eat his fucking cake, too. Instead, he'll ride out the financial crisis even if it means keeping the Mets in mediocrity for as long as it takes for the debt to be paid back with Mets baseball revenue, knowing full well he's covered because the value of the franchise is rising to astronomical proportions. If the Marlins are worth a billion, what the hell is the NYC NL franchise worth? Literally every owner. If the Yankees were losing money, the Steinbrenners would cut payroll. No owner would liquidate one asset to try to make the another one more popular. I mean, I'd like the owners of Chick Fil-A to sell too as they're garbage people running the business in a way contrary to what i feel I "deserve" as a customer.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 28 2017 05:04 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I've seen estimates that the Mets may be worth $2 billion. Back in 1980, the Doubleday-Wilpon group purchased the team for $21 million. If I had known how much the value of the team would appreciate, I would have bought the team in 1980 for $21 million, even though I was 17 years old and broke. Maybe our best hope is that after Fred is gone, Jeff might decide that he'd rather have $2 billion than a baseball team.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 28 2017 05:10 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I've seen estimates that the Mets may be worth $2 billion. Back in 1980, the Doubleday-Wilpon group purchased the team for $21 million. If I had known how much the value of the team would appreciate, I would have bought the team in 1980 for $21 million, even though I was 17 years old and broke. Maybe our best hope is that after Fred is gone, Jeff might decide that he'd rather have $2 billion than a baseball team. It gets even better. Or worse. Wilpon was a minority investor. I think his initial stake was five percent, or about $1Milllion. He parlayed one million dollars into about two billion. And when it came time to buy out Doubleday's share, the rumor is that Wilpon wouldn't have been able to do so without leveraging financial data for credit that, in hindsight, was phony ---- a portfolio based on Madoff's then undiscovered fraudulent and inflated holdings.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 28 2017 05:16 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Fred also argued successfully to have had the franchise value lowered to buy Doubleday's shares. I'm sure do could have sold it on the open market for much more that Fred paid for his half. Jeff's son will soon be entering the biz, you figure.

41Forever Dec 28 2017 05:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I mean, I'd like the owners of Chick Fil-A to sell too as they're garbage people running the business in a way contrary to what i feel I "deserve" as a customer. Aside from labeling people as "garbage" because you have philosophical and political differences, one could point out that you have, in fact, many options when it comes purchasing to fried chicken sandwiches. If you don't like the store that closes on Sundays or whatever, there are many other franchises that might treat you the way you think you deserve to be treated. And if enough people feel the same, the place you disagree with will either change its ways or lose customers and close shop. A baseball team is a little different. While still very much a business, it is also a bit of a local trust and in all but a handful of places, a monopoly. If it were just about winning and treating you as you think you deserve to be treated, you'd already be wearing a RE2PECT t-shirt.

Ceetar Dec 28 2017 06:38 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

41Forever wrote: I mean, I'd like the owners of Chick Fil-A to sell too as they're garbage people running the business in a way contrary to what i feel I "deserve" as a customer. Aside from labeling people as "garbage" because you have philosophical and political differences, one could point out that you have, in fact, many options when it comes purchasing to fried chicken sandwiches. If you don't like the store that closes on Sundays or whatever, there are many other franchises that might treat you the way you think you deserve to be treated. And if enough people feel the same, the place you disagree with will either change its ways or lose customers and close shop. A baseball team is a little different. While still very much a business, it is also a bit of a local trust and in all but a handful of places, a monopoly. If it were just about winning and treating you as you think you deserve to be treated, you'd already be wearing a RE2PECT t-shirt. meh on local trust, and meh on monopoly. It's a business. it's entertainment. So are the movies, the NFL, going to the park, playing softball, playing competitive checkers. It's really no different. we deserve nothing. Don't like how the Mets choose to entertain you? well, there's always burger king. or Shake Shack's chicken sandwich, or cook it yourself. Your favorite baseball team actively funding things with the explicit unAmerican purpose of discrimination? Eat/watch elsewhere. We can complain and raise whatever causes we want about how things should happen, but it's not going to change anything.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 02 2018 08:31 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm not so sure about #2. Marc Carig frequently appears on SNY, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if John Harper of the News criticized the Mets for their cheapness. I'm pretty sure he's done so in the past. And here it is: Mets better spend on free agents if they want to win, because there’s not much immediate help on the way Not so much an explicit criticism of cheapness, but a call to spend. But he does say this: John Harper wrote: As I’ve been writing since last fall, there is no way the Mets can justify not spending significantly on free agents this off-season in this win-now window of theirs that is still open if they ever get lucky with injuries.

Centerfield Jan 02 2018 09:11 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

And he also wrote this: Maybe owners Jeff and Fred Wilpon will react to the growing criticism of their intention to lower that payroll, as they have in the past, and realize what a mistake it would be not to spend after they had some $60 million in expiring contracts — more if you add in the savings of the salary-dump trades of last summer and insurance money on David Wright. Which is about as direct as you might hope from someone who cashed checks from the Wilpons. Kudos to John. He seems to be holding out hope, as I am, that the Wilpons will open things up and spend.

Ceetar Jan 02 2018 09:25 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It's not irresponsible to ponder if immediately spending all the 'expiring contract' money in one go is the right way to approach things. I suspect Sandy feels the same, payroll constraints aside. pipe dream to expect one-time payments/profits to be applied to a budget. Maybe, maybe, if there was an obvious one time/one year expense. like a 20m payment to Japan for the rights to Ohtani, which they lost on. Otherwise, seems unlikely. Best case we can hope for is that it was directly applied to debt that lowers future expenditures and hence raises revenue/payroll in future seasons.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 02 2018 09:28 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Maybe they're holding back this year so that they can go big for someone like Bryce Harper next year. I really don't think that's the case, but who knows? Maybe?

Ceetar Jan 02 2018 09:36 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Maybe they're holding back this year so that they can go big for someone like Bryce Harper next year. I really don't think that's the case, but who knows? Maybe? I mean, this offseason sucks and next one is full of huge names. it was be irresponsible not to at least factor that into the budget, complaints about the size of that budget aside.

Nymr83 Jan 02 2018 10:56 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Yeah, when they sign Harper/Machado all will be forgiven. But when was the last time the Mets signed the top free agent? Beltran?

Ceetar Jan 03 2018 02:44 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: Yeah, when they sign Harper/Machado all will be forgiven. But when was the last time the Mets signed the top free agent? Beltran? It was a tossup between Jason Bay and Matt Holliday as the 'top' free agent according to some. Bay was technically 3rd on MLB Trade Rumors. Not that I'm expecting Machado or Harper but even some of the other guys in 'need' spots are tantalizing and worth keeping a financial eye on.

Nymr83 Jan 03 2018 03:13 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Machado, if he hits the open market with his skills at that age, is the caliber of free agent you see once every 10 years or so. If the Mets dont make a very competitive offer I would say they fucked up. Wasnt Jason Bay widely considered the consolation prize/ clearly worse option after losing out on Holiday at the time? Or is that 20/20 hindsight?

Edgy MD Jan 03 2018 03:25 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Not so much the consolation prize, but definitely the more risk-averse choice as demonstrated by his relative contract Holliday: Seven years, $120 million, $17.14 million per annum Bay: Four years, $66 million, $16.5 million per annum Bay actually signed his deal first. The deal also had the added attraction of Peter Gammons at his most inscrutable, reporting alternately that the Red Sox had a deal on the table for Bay during the prior season, but that he turned down, and that Bay "would rather play in Beirut than Flushing."

Centerfield Jan 03 2018 03:39 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Bay was one of the top free agents that year but it was a shit class. Very rare that you can entice an elite hitter to jump ship on a four year deal. The stats on Bay were pretty good. Relatively young, .921 OPS, All Star, 7th in MVP voting. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out. I don’t think any of us could have imagined it going so badly. He suffered a concussion right? One has to wonder how much of an effect that had. Basically ruined Ryan Church.

Centerfield Jan 03 2018 03:44 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Actually, just read up on Bay and realized he was signed for his age 32 season. I guess that’s why he only got 4 years. So maybe it was just age. Or the Citifield dimensions. Or bad luck. Who knows.

Centerfield Jan 03 2018 03:44 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Actually, just read up on Bay and realized he was signed for his age 32 season. I guess that’s why he only got 4 years. So maybe it was just age. Or the Citifield dimensions. Or bad luck. Who knows.

Ceetar Jan 03 2018 04:34 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Bay was one of the top free agents that year but it was a shit class. Very rare that you can entice an elite hitter to jump ship on a four year deal. The stats on Bay were pretty good. Relatively young, .921 OPS, All Star, 7th in MVP voting. Sometimes it just doesn’t work out. I don’t think any of us could have imagined it going so badly. He suffered a concussion right? One has to wonder how much of an effect that had. Basically ruined Ryan Church. I'd be surprised if it wasn't the concussion. I think he had a second one a little later too. Baseball's tough. I'd say signing Johan after having the pitching blow the season was clearly a good move, and signing Bay after an injury-plagued low-power season was certainly a reasonable play, though I suspect it's one a GM not up against the rails doesn't make. The 'best' choice for the Mets in 2019 will depend a lot on how 2018 goes. Maybe Dozier's the better target, or maybe pitching. And the best options might not end up working out, for whatever reason.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 03 2018 04:53 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

To me, Bay was one of those dumb things the Mets do to make a show of a point. Everyone hated Phillips because he gave him away as a young guy so once he gets old and Phillips is gone they open the checkbook as though to say, "See? We learned something!" barely considering it was way too late by then. I'm not saying I hoped for or even expected as little as Bay gave us, or that he wasn't at least an okay choice given the alternatives but there was a very convincing bear case for him made on Baseball Prospectus that offseason that turned out nailed it: He was aging very quickly but still had the cheat-on-fastball skills to work the Green Monster 36 times a year. Concussion, schmuncussion

Nymr83 Jan 03 2018 05:52 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

looking at the numbers, pre-Mets Jason Bay was a better player than i remembered - but Holliday was the better player and the Mets got burned by shopping at the discount store (if not the bargain bin as i initially remembered)

Zvon Jan 03 2018 07:03 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I may not always have much to say about stuff most of the time, but I always have an image for everything. ALWAYS AND EVERYTHING!

Nymr83 Jan 03 2018 11:59 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Use the Force Jason

Centerfield Jan 03 2018 02:49 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

This is an article about the luxury tax acting as a de facto salary cap, and how that is unfair to players. In essence, the luxury tax is an artificial barrier allowing for owners to keep payrolls low, despite soaring revenues. https://www.sfchronicle.com/giants/shea ... 469266.php The luxury tax is at $197 million. The Mets payroll last year was $155 million.

Edgy MD Jan 03 2018 03:08 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: This is an article about the luxury tax acting as a de facto salary cap, and how that is unfair to players. I screamingly agree. Don't let anybody tell you the luxury tax is about competitiveness. It's about cost controls. Far worse are the salary slots for the draft and the limited budgets teams are permitted on foreign bonuses.

Centerfield Jan 03 2018 03:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Think of the absurdity of our situation. In other cities, the owners are criticized for artificially limiting their payrolls to $197 million. Revenues are soaring, but player salaries are capped. This is greedy and unfair. In Flushing, the Mets have one of the highest revenues in baseball. But they went "over-budget" at $155 million, and are threatening to reduce payroll further.

Ceetar Jan 03 2018 03:52 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Think of the absurdity of our situation. In other cities, the owners are criticized for artificially limiting their payrolls to $197 million. Revenues are soaring, but player salaries are capped. This is greedy and unfair. In Flushing, the Mets have one of the highest revenues in baseball. But they went "over-budget" at $155 million, and are threatening to reduce payroll further. as long as we're continually beating a dead horse, I still can't figure out if we're asserting the Mets are cheap or broke. And you seem determined to convince the Mets to carry $30 million in dead/crappy contracts just because they should be able to, which ultimately would put them in a similar group as the cap scrapers. Remember that the Yankees are desperately shedding payroll to try to make moves. They have to get creative to make things happen because they have no wiggle room. If both teams end up at 85 wins and 3 games out of the playoffs this season, it's hard not to prefer the Mets future options if they're at $145 and the Yankees are at $195. I mean, the Mets payroll HAS gone up, and then they hit this window where a lot of stuff expired at once. Thanks to not having to pay minor leaguers and restrictive 6 year initial contract agreements it is in fact possible to transition (some) roster spots to cheap players and not actually lose anything production wise.

Edgy MD Jan 03 2018 04:45 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It's winter. Sometimes the dead horses are the only ones in the corral.

Centerfield Jan 03 2018 05:05 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It's not a dead horse. Definition from dictionary.com: Idioms beat /flog a dead horse, to persist in pursuing or trying to revive interest in a project or subject that has lost its usefulness or relevance. The payroll issue is certainly relevant. In fact, I don't think there is an issue that is more relevant than payroll at the current time. Not position needs, proposed trades, favorite seasons, player wives, or even the cover derby. The most relevant and important topic surrounding the Mets is payroll. Whether or not it's useful to discuss it is undetermined. But if you believe the reports, public perception and fan outcry seem to influence those decisions. So why not make tons of noise. It certainly can't hurt. Back to your questions: 1. It doesn't matter if they are broke or cheap. The end result is they are not spending. Personally, I believe they are over-leveraged rather than miserly, but it doesn't matter. Either way is not acceptable, a violation of the "best interest of the game" clause, and has caused another owner to lose his team in the past. 2. Find me one instance where I have advocated they carry $30 million in dead/crappy contracts. It should be easy considering how many times I have beaten this dead horse. 3. The Yankees are desperately shedding payroll? I sometimes wonder what planet you live on. 4. Future Options: Let's humor your hypothetical. Both teams end up with 85 wins and miss the playoffs. The Mets are at $145 and the MFY's are at $195. Who is in a better position going forward? It depends. How high can the Mets go? How high can the Yankees go? If they can both go to $230M, then the Mets are better positioned. But if the Yankees can go to $230M, and the Mets max out at $155M, then the Yankees are better positioned. It's a simple concept. Whoever can spend more has the advantage.

Ceetar Jan 03 2018 05:12 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: 4. Future Options: Let's humor your hypothetical. Both teams end up with 85 wins and miss the playoffs. The Mets are at $145 and the MFY's are at $195. Who is in a better position going forward? It depends. How high can the Mets go? How high can the Yankees go? If they can both go to $230M, then the Mets are better positioned. But if the Yankees can go to $230M, and the Mets max out at $155M, then the Yankees are better positioned. It's a simple concept. Whoever can spend more has the advantage. we know how high the Yankees can go. 197 or so. whatever the cap is. They've very clearly made that point this offseason. How high can the Mets go? probably about 155, in that scenario, as it seems unlikely revenue will drastically increase off an 85 win season. Unless it's just some weird fluke where Rosario and Smith are awesome in the second half but it's too little too late and everyone's dreaming big and excited. then maybe 165? But in this scenario the Mets don't even need that much, and aren't losing that much.

Lefty Specialist Jan 03 2018 05:56 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: Remember that the Yankees are desperately shedding payroll to try to make moves. They have to get creative to make things happen because they have no wiggle room. If both teams end up at 85 wins and 3 games out of the playoffs this season, it's hard not to prefer the Mets future options if they're at $145 and the Yankees are at $195. I mean, the Mets payroll HAS gone up, and then they hit this window where a lot of stuff expired at once. Thanks to not having to pay minor leaguers and restrictive 6 year initial contract agreements it is in fact possible to transition (some) roster spots to cheap players and not actually lose anything production wise. Well, one of those moves was bringing the best power hitter in baseball aboard.As for 85 wins, the Yanks will probably fly past that in early September. The Mets, unless they make some major moves, won't see it at all. The Mets essentially brought back the 2016 team that won 87 games in 2017. That team won 70 games. So now they're essentially bringing THAT team back in 2018, less all the power hitters except Yo. So while the Yankees may have uncertainty, I'd prefer that to the certainty that the Mets will bite a corn dog in 2018.

41Forever Jan 03 2018 06:39 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 03 2018 07:16 PM

Centerfield wrote: Think of the absurdity of our situation. In other cities, the owners are criticized for artificially limiting their payrolls to $197 million. Revenues are soaring, but player salaries are capped. This is greedy and unfair. In Flushing, the Mets have one of the highest revenues in baseball. But they went "over-budget" at $155 million, and are threatening to reduce payroll further. I don't know if it's fair to point out the revenues without noting the expenses as well. None of us have access to the Mets books, but expenses go beyond player payroll. Did the team assume more debt for the ballpark that what other teams have done? I don't recall what the public-private split was on that deal. If you are implying that the ownership is just pocketing the money, I don't know if that's fair. If you want to assume that the Wilpons can't afford to run the team the way it should be run and give way to people with deeper pockets, that's another debate. The luxury tax has been around for, what, 15 or 20 years? It's a voluntary cap, unlike the hard caps that exist in the other three major sports. Player salaries continue to grow -- and more power to them, if that's what the market dictates -- so I don't know if we can call it greedy and unfair. Eric Hosmer is a nice player and all, but if there's a system where he's getting offered $21 million a year for seven years, it's hard to argue that the players are getting squeezed to tightly.

Ceetar Jan 03 2018 06:55 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Lefty Specialist wrote: Well, one of those moves was bringing the best power hitter in baseball aboard.As for 85 wins, the Yanks will probably fly past that in early September. The Mets, unless they make some major moves, won't see it at all. The Mets essentially brought back the 2016 team that won 87 games in 2017. That team won 70 games. So now they're essentially bringing THAT team back in 2018, less all the power hitters except Yo. So while the Yankees may have uncertainty, I'd prefer that to the certainty that the Mets will bite a corn dog in 2018. I'd take the under on the Yankees, and over on the Mets, based on rough roster expectations. The Yankees 'bought high' on Stanton. 6.9 fWAR was a career high, but fine. Gregorious was worth 3.9. Headley was 1.9. Those are the salaries they shed to be able to fit in Stanton, but the net gain wasn't huge, if anything. And it's not like they just reached out and grabbed Machado to play third there, they're talking about giving Frazier more time, they brought back CC on a one year deal, which feels like going to the well one too many times. Their infield and rotation are suspect. They're hardly a juggernaut. Meanwhile the Mets that 'brought back the same team' did not truthfully do that thanks to injury, and won't again in 2018 where top prospects Rosario and Smith are set to feature. Sure, they could be duds, or they could be assets. They have two healthy aces and lots of potential for a third or fourth or fifth at least above average pitchers and some live bullpen arms and some flexibility there. Let's not get all woe is me just yet.

Centerfield Jan 03 2018 07:18 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't know if it's fair to point out the revenues without noting the expenses as well. None of us have access to the Mets books, but expenses go beyond player payroll. Did the team assume more debt for the ballpark that what other teams have done? No. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/nyreg ... diums.html I don't recall what the public-private split was on that deal. 65% private. Plus they got to keep the parking revenue which used to go to the city. If you are implying that the ownership is just pocketing the money, I don't know if that's fair. If you want to assume that the Wilpons can't afford to run the team the way it should be run and give way to people with deeper pockets, that's another debate. I didn't imply anything. I outright stated this: "It doesn't matter if they are broke or cheap. The end result is they are not spending. Personally, I believe they are over-leveraged rather than miserly, but it doesn't matter. Either way is not acceptable, a violation of the "best interest of the game" clause, and has caused another owner to lose his team in the past." The luxury tax has been around for, what, 15 or 20 years? It's a voluntary cap, unlike the hard caps that exist in the other three major sports. Player salaries continue to grow -- and more power to them, if that's what the market dictates -- so I don't know if we can call it greedy and unfair. Whether you think a luxury tax is greedy or unfair is not my point. My point is that using the luxury tax to keep payroll artificially low has been called greedy and unfair by others. It appears to be a legitimate argument. What does that say about our situation, where we are not anywhere close to that cap despite having one of the top revenues in baseball? Do you get that? In other markets, they are saying "Spending $197M on payroll is greedy and unfair! The owners are terrible!" Here, the situation is so bad, we would be thrilled if the owners even approached that number. The point is that our situation is not even debatable. It's absurd.

Ashie62 Jan 03 2018 08:54 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

A bit OT, but, If San Diego & KC can offer to pay Eric Hosmer 3 yrs or 7 yrs at about 20 million per year why are the Mets not involved. I see zero reason to go to a game this season as things stand now. They truly are the Amazin Mets. oye

Nymr83 Jan 04 2018 01:19 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ashie62 wrote: A bit OT, but, If San Diego & KC can offer to pay Eric Hosmer 3 yrs or 7 yrs at about 20 million per year why are the Mets not involved. I see zero reason to go to a game this season as things stand now. They truly are the Amazin Mets. oye there are plenty of places to plant your flag on the 'Mets are cheap' narrative. I really don't feel Hosmer is one of them, he just isnt that good.

Centerfield Jan 04 2018 03:28 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: Ashie62 wrote: A bit OT, but, If San Diego & KC can offer to pay Eric Hosmer 3 yrs or 7 yrs at about 20 million per year why are the Mets not involved. I see zero reason to go to a game this season as things stand now. They truly are the Amazin Mets. oye there are plenty of places to plant your flag on the 'Mets are cheap' narrative. I really don't feel Hosmer is one of them, he just isnt that good. I’m not big on Hosmer either at that price. Maybe Logan Morrison or Duda are better options when you are talking about that much of a commitment. Still, you need elite bats somewhere.

Ashie62 Jan 04 2018 03:56 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Duda? Really? good lord I have seen enough of that show.

Centerfield Jan 04 2018 04:05 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Not me. I love that show. Probably a lot more than that show deserves. If the Mets get thunder elsewhere, I’d have no problem bringing the big guy back on a short term deal.

Zvon Jan 04 2018 05:40 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ashie62 wrote: Duda? Really? good lord I have seen enough of that show. As the creator of the slogan I LOVE THE GLOVE™ I have to say that Duda's fielding has REALLY improved over the years and if he hits 30 dingers and drives in 80 for the length of his next contract, I'd be okay with that. But seeing what Dom Smith can do for us trumps that thought.

Ceetar Jan 04 2018 01:19 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I mean, Duda is better than Hosmer. Logan Morrison is not good. Dominic Smith might still be the best choice, and the Mets don't intend to block him.

Nymr83 Jan 04 2018 02:10 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

yes, the Mets could use an elite bat. Hosmer is not an elite bat. Not even close. Among players whose primary position was first base last year, he ranked 11th in OPS+ (minimum 300 plate appearances) - 11th at the position in his career year! giving a contract like that to a guy like him is a franchise-killing move. If Smith isn't ready i would be very happy to see a Duda Reunion!

MFS62 Jan 04 2018 03:32 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

On December 10, 1992, Congress held hearings about whether to continue baseball's anti-trust exemption. During those hearings, a spreadsheet was introduced into evidence showing the revenue and expense streams of major league teams. Following those hearings (the next day?), that spreadsheet was printed in the USA Today newspaper. I read it, but did not keep a copy and have been unable to find it since. But I remember two key numbers, but we must remember these are in 1992 numbers which have increased dramatically since then. The spreadsheet showed that the money each major league team receives from the national television contracts and revenues from the sale of official MLB merchandise totaled $78 million per year. Considering inflation, I'm sure that amount must be well over $100 million per year by now, with multiple national TV contracts and the increase of cost of goods. That means that every major league team starts out each season with $100 million on the books. That is before a fan buys a ticket and refreshments or pays for parking. It also does not include local tv and radio revenue or stadium advertising. A WSJ report last year showed what each fans spends at each major league ballpark. For the Mets it was about $110. So doing simple math, attendance of about 1.5 million per year results in an additional $165 million in fan-generated revenue. That combined total is $265 million. (and I'm probably missing something or being conservative) And we're told they can't exceed $150 million dollars? Really? Where is that other $115 million going? Later

Ceetar Jan 04 2018 03:47 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

well, to pay Danny Meyer, buy hot dogs, staff workers, etc. that $110 per is what a fan spends, not the profit margin.

MFS62 Jan 04 2018 04:18 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: well, to pay Danny Meyer, buy hot dogs, staff workers, etc. that $110 per is what a fan spends, not the profit margin. I did not say it was the profit margin. It was a component of my total revenue calculation. Later

Centerfield Jan 04 2018 04:23 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Forbes has actual revenue numbers. Over $300 million not counting TV.

MFS62 Jan 04 2018 05:28 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Forbes has actual revenue numbers. Over $300 million not counting TV. Inflation. :) Thanks. Later

batmagadanleadoff Jan 04 2018 07:25 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

41Forever wrote: Centerfield wrote: Think of the absurdity of our situation. In other cities, the owners are criticized for artificially limiting their payrolls to $197 million. Revenues are soaring, but player salaries are capped. This is greedy and unfair. In Flushing, the Mets have one of the highest revenues in baseball. But they went "over-budget" at $155 million, and are threatening to reduce payroll further. I don't know if it's fair to point out the revenues without noting the expenses as well. None of us have access to the Mets books, but expenses go beyond player payroll.... I don't understand your stubborn and desperate determination to defend the Mets owners at all costs. And the thing of it is that you have even less evidence to support your position than the supposedly scant evidence you claim CF has. It's not necessary to inspect the Mets books with forensic expertise. The existing evidence, which is more than anecdotal, is devastatingly powerful. The Mets payroll is expected to rank around 20th this season, less than most teams, including the poor Kansas City Royals even though the Mets play in the world's greatest city. They sign a top tier still in his prime free agent, on average, every 10 or 15 years. And since Fred Wilpon assumed control of the team's day to day operations more than 35 years ago, the Mets have just two first place finishes. How the hell do you defend this record? Why aren't the Mets outspending most of MLB's other teams every ... single ... season? If they don't have the money, then the ownership is incompetent. If the Mets do have the money, then the owners are cheap. It's not that complicated.

HahnSolo Jan 04 2018 08:27 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

batmagadanleadoff wrote: How the hell do you defend this record? Why aren't the Mets outspending most of MLB's other teams every ... single ... season? If they don't have the money, then the ownership is incompetent. If the Mets do have the money, then the owners are cheap. Why not both?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 04 2018 08:34 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I think they're selfish. They don't want to give up the prestige of owning a major league team even though they're not able to run it as it deserves. I suggest that we get someone to sneak into Fred Wilpon's bedroom and whisper into his ear while he's asleep. "Fred... You can't take it with you. You're 82 years old. Remember 1986? Wouldn't it be great to win another World Series before you go? One where you wouldn't have to share the spotlight with that Nelson guy?" Or instead of a Fred Whisperer, maybe we can hire a hypnotist?

Zvon Jan 04 2018 08:42 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

batmagadanleadoff wrote: 41Forever wrote: Centerfield wrote: Think of the absurdity of our situation. In other cities, the owners are criticized for artificially limiting their payrolls to $197 million. Revenues are soaring, but player salaries are capped. This is greedy and unfair. In Flushing, the Mets have one of the highest revenues in baseball. But they went "over-budget" at $155 million, and are threatening to reduce payroll further. I don't know if it's fair to point out the revenues without noting the expenses as well. None of us have access to the Mets books, but expenses go beyond player payroll.... I don't understand your stubborn and desperate determination to defend the Mets owners at all costs. And the thing of it is that you have even less evidence to support your position than the supposedly scant evidence you claim CF has. It's not necessary to inspect the Mets books with forensic expertise. The existing evidence, which is more than anecdotal, is devastatingly powerful. The Mets payroll is expected to rank around 20th this season, less than most teams, including the poor Kansas City Royals even though the Mets play in the world's greatest city. They sign a top tier still in his prime free agent, on average, every 10 or 15 years. And since Fred Wilpon assumed control of the team's day to day operations more than 35 years ago, the Mets have just two first place finishes. How the hell do you defend this record? Why aren't the Mets outspending most of MLB's other teams every ... single ... season? If they don't have the money, then the ownership is incompetent. If the Mets do have the money, then the owners are cheap. It's not that complicated. Bingo, bongo, swish! < That means "right on brother".

Ceetar Jan 04 2018 10:48 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Benjamin Grimm wrote: not able to run it as it deserves. lol. it's their business. it's a business. they can run it anyway they want and _it_ and _us_ deserve literally nothing.

Zvon Jan 04 2018 11:22 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: not able to run it as it deserves. lol. it's their business. it's a business. they can run it anyway they want and _it_ and _us_ deserve literally nothing. A big market city does deserve a big market team, IMO. Hey Ceets, is your avatar from one of the Final Fantasy vid games? I just completed FF1 and am currently playing FF2 on an emulator. I got the FF2 bootlegged version that was canceled here in the states and only released in Japan until some later anniversary issue. I've only ever played the one released on Sega Genesis, I think it was FF7. I'm gonna run thru 'em all, in order, over the next year or so. These early versions are great, glitches and all. But FF2 was a serious departure and bombed in Japan. It tasks me sometimes, but I am enjoying it.

Ceetar Jan 04 2018 11:29 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Zvon wrote: Hey Ceets, is your avatar from one of the Final Fantasy vid games? I just completed FF1 and am currently playing FF2 on an emulator. I got the FF2 bootlegged version that was canceled here in the states and only released in Japan until some later anniversary issue. I've only ever played the one released on Sega Genesis, I think it was FF7. I'm gonna run thru 'em all, in order, over the next year or so. These early versions are great, glitches and all. But FF2 was a serious departure and bombed in Japan. It tasks me sometimes, but I am enjoying it. It's from Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest. I've played FF1,4,6,7,8,9.. and then sorta ran out of time. I'll get back to them. FF1 rocks. i've messed around with 2 and 3, but never finished them. I think I rented 2 once from Blockbuster when that was a thing and got pretty far along, but that was it. No final fantasy was on Sega. Nintendo only until 7, which was on PS1.

Nymr83 Jan 05 2018 12:28 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: not able to run it as it deserves. lol. it's their business. it's a business. they can run it anyway they want and _it_ and _us_ deserve literally nothing. They can run it the way they want, but I don't agree that the fans don't deserve better. MLB grants the Mets the sole (or in this case, dual with the Yankees) rights to a very large and potentially lucrative market. If the Mets current owners dont plan to do right by the fans, MLB should threaten to allow a team to move to Brooklyn or North Jersey, in the best interests of baseball. Not that we have necessarily reached that point. But MLB should be thinking of the fans happiness as being in the overall best interest of the game.

Edgy MD Jan 05 2018 12:59 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The world doesn't work that way.

Nymr83 Jan 05 2018 01:07 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm not saying it does, i'm just talking about what fans deserve

Ceetar Jan 05 2018 02:17 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: Ceetar wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: not able to run it as it deserves. lol. it's their business. it's a business. they can run it anyway they want and _it_ and _us_ deserve literally nothing. They can run it the way they want, but I don't agree that the fans don't deserve better. MLB grants the Mets the sole (or in this case, dual with the Yankees) rights to a very large and potentially lucrative market. If the Mets current owners dont plan to do right by the fans, MLB should threaten to allow a team to move to Brooklyn or North Jersey, in the best interests of baseball. Not that we have necessarily reached that point. But MLB should be thinking of the fans happiness as being in the overall best interest of the game. well 1, the Mets are doing "right" by MLB. I'm pretty sure they're not unhappy with the Wilpons. And 2, letting a team move into their backyard, even if they were magically a rich and prosperous team that would spend 200m (they won't), would only really benefit the Mets, as it'd just be another set of rivalry games for higher attention and attendance. Attendance is such a small part of the picture these days anyway. It'd almost definitely be a 'rising tide lifts all boats' things, though I doubt either the Mets or the Yankees would sign off on it.

Edgy MD Jan 05 2018 02:35 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I'm all for he blowing up of territorial exclusivity. It's just one more un-American practice the anti-trust exemption lets MLB get away with. On the other hand, there is a team in the Mets' back yard. Or maybe their side yard.

41Forever Jan 05 2018 03:14 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: I'm all for he blowing up of territorial exclusivity. It's just one more un-American practice the anti-trust exemption lets MLB get away with. On the other hand, there is a team in the Mets' back yard. Or maybe their side yard. Eastern side yard represents!

Zvon Jan 05 2018 03:55 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Hey Ceets, is your avatar from one of the Final Fantasy vid games? I just completed FF1 and am currently playing FF2 on an emulator. I got the FF2 bootlegged version that was canceled here in the states and only released in Japan until some later anniversary issue. I've only ever played the one released on Sega Genesis, I think it was FF7. I'm gonna run thru 'em all, in order, over the next year or so. These early versions are great, glitches and all. But FF2 was a serious departure and bombed in Japan. It tasks me sometimes, but I am enjoying it. It's from Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest. I've played FF1,4,6,7,8,9.. and then sorta ran out of time. I'll get back to them. FF1 rocks. i've messed around with 2 and 3, but never finished them. I think I rented 2 once from Blockbuster when that was a thing and got pretty far along, but that was it. No final fantasy was on Sega. Nintendo only until 7, which was on PS1. GAMING TIME OUT! I don't recall having a Nintendo system at that time. If I do recall correctly it was a cartridge game tho. I had a PS1 but that was disc games, right? Could there have been a converter or something? Whatever FF game I was playing, I rented it and got into it so much I couldn't return it until it was completed (It was late two weeks, I think). I had to pay fiddy bucks in late fees! I COULD HAVE BOUGHT THE DAMN GAME FOR THAT MUCH!!!! Here's me and my girlfriends son playing on the Sega Genesis system. I'm doing my impression of Doc, and Ethan ,...I can't tell. Might have been his impression of a Starting Lineup Mets figure. Look at all that music :) I had another shelf of albums that is not in view, and more cassettes in cassette cases. Okay, back to your regularly scheduled FAKE NEWS

Centerfield Jan 05 2018 02:26 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

John Harper says the Mets might have more to spend than originally reported. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseb ... -1.3738534 Fans have every right to be cynical about this, and I have no doubt they will be, but sources with knowledge of the Mets’ plans are telling me the front office will do more to improve the team this winter than is being portrayed publicly. I have to believe this is already at least partly a reaction to the pounding that owners Fred and Jeff Wilpon are taking publicly for their apparent intention to cut payroll. Yay! Nevertheless, one name I heard mentioned on Thursday was Mike Moustakas, the third baseman who hit 38 home runs for the Royals last season, and so far seems to have generated limited interest at best. Um. Yay? Bottom line, for the umpteenth time, is that the Mets shouldn’t have to look for bargains like some small-market team, that they should be committed to spending enough this winter to give them a chance to win big in 2018 — with good health from their starting pitchers. It’s hard to get answers as to why the Mets aren’t willing to operate with the financial might of a New York team. After all, they’ve spent at that level at different times over the years, with varying degrees of success. It would be nice to know who he's asking, but I'm glad he's asking.

Ceetar Jan 05 2018 03:20 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

well it's always depended how you spin the spun comments. There was a 'new' report of just $10 million avail yesterday too. And then I saw something today about taking on salary in trades to make up for not having as many prospects. We heard earlier in the offseason about the Mets preferring bigger annual value to longer term deals for relievers. My rounding it all out makes me think that Sandy is both prepared to spend as little as 10 and as much as 30-40 depending on the guy/deals. If he can get the costlier guys that he thinks are worth it, he will, but otherwise he'll value shop and be prepared to swap in and out later.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Jan 05 2018 04:00 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

What's always been reported about the Wilpons is that they give Sandy/Omar/Phillips/whomever a figure but say they are open to hearing a case for it being outside of that range. Whether the range is acceptable is one thing, and breaking the bank for a top of the market FA is unlikely under this way of doing biz, I do believe it's true in a general sense that there's no hard ceiling, just hard sells.

Ceetar Jan 05 2018 04:06 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: What's always been reported about the Wilpons is that they give Sandy/Omar/Phillips/whomever a figure but say they are open to hearing a case for it being outside of that range. Whether the range is acceptable is one thing, and breaking the bank for a top of the market FA is unlikely under this way of doing biz, I do believe it's true in a general sense that there's no hard ceiling, just hard sells. that's how I've understood it too. I've also heard it said that pretty much every GM has to run those huge signings past the owner. I'm trying to think who would be the 'break the bank' guy in terms of free agency this year. Darvish? He might be a hard sell with so many starters to deal with already.

Nymr83 Jan 05 2018 04:15 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: What's always been reported about the Wilpons is that they give Sandy/Omar/Phillips/whomever a figure but say they are open to hearing a case for it being outside of that range. Whether the range is acceptable is one thing, and breaking the bank for a top of the market FA is unlikely under this way of doing biz, I do believe it's true in a general sense that there's no hard ceiling, just hard sells. that's how I've understood it too. I've also heard it said that pretty much every GM has to run those huge signings past the owner. I'm trying to think who would be the 'break the bank' guy in terms of free agency this year. Darvish? He might be a hard sell with so many starters to deal with already. maybe there isn't one and Sandy is too smart to go sign us a Jason Bay. he'll patch holes and wait for Machado next year.

Centerfield Jan 06 2018 12:42 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Yesterday afternoon on twitter, the SNY guys were like "tune into Baseball Night in New York, we are going to have an in-depth discussion on payroll, McCutchen, etc" So I decided to tune in. I mean, if they explicitly say they are going to discuss payroll, they have to address it right? My takeaway is that they are basically Wilpon spokesmen. We talked about it when SNY was created. Would the on-air personalities maintain their objectivity or would they become propaganda men, like YES. I don't think it's quite at that level, but my feeling is that the SNY guys have free reign to criticize every aspect of the Mets organization, except for the owners. The talking points last night: *It's hard to discuss payroll. There is no set number. Sandy is given a range, but then has the ability to go back and get permission in the event they reach a good deal. So the lack of spending is more a function of the market and there not being a great fit, rather than anything on the part of the Mets. *None of the teams are spending, so why so much focus on the Mets? Anthony McCarron did say some of the criticism was justified by Sandy putting out implications that payroll would drop. But is that just Sandy being weird? Then there was discussion about how quirky he is and how he operates. *The panel, and Andy Martino in particular, stressed the poor quality of the farm system. I think Martino said something along the lines of "the FAR BIGGER problem, is the lack of blue chips in the farm system". I think this is the line of thinking Wilpons have decided to push. Basically, they can't ignore the criticism any longer and so they need to change the discussion. "Pivot" as 41Forever would call it. "Hey, we know we aren't doing dick, but you know why? It's because Sandy drafted poorly. So don't look at us." The talking heads have been instructed to throw Sandy under the bus to take some of the heat off of them. *The Mets are in on McCutchen, monitoring Moustakas, Frazier. Still time to do lots of damage this offseason. My reactions: *Points 1, 2 and 3 are complete bullshit. Any feigned objectivity is gone in my book. They are not allowed to say "Wilpon". No criticism. *Any payroll discussion that doesn't start by asking why the "range" is so stupid low to begin with has no merit. Even the other day, after John Harper's article, during his TV segment, he never uttered that thought, never said Wilpon, and only focused on the Sandy/drafting part of his article. *I agree that Sandy has drafted poorly. I've said it many times. But that is not the "far bigger" reason. I think it definitely is a factor, but drafting well is hard. I know he definitely tried to draft well, but it's not like the NBA. On the other hand, spending money is easy. Having a big market payroll is a conscious decision. No excuse not to spend. *The discussion about Moustakas and Frazier included qualifiers like "they're not really an Alderson type of player". And they're not. But when they miss on them, you can guess this will be the line of reasoning floated to justify this. There was no discussion at all about why the Mets are not in on the top of the market, rather than the flawed guys in the tier below. *The "back after this" showed clips of Carlos Gonzalez, at which point I figured it was time to change the channel.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2018 05:39 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't think the Wilpons are pushing a narrative that the farm system sucks.

Centerfield Jan 06 2018 05:47 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I disagree. I think they will do anything to take the heat off. Even throw their own GM under the bus.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2018 05:49 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

That wouldn't and doesn't take the heat off.

Centerfield Jan 06 2018 07:38 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

In their minds it does. Andy Martino said “the far bigger problem is the lack of prospects in the farm system.” It deflects focus onto something else. It provides another person to blame. And there are compromised journalists happy to promote the idea and a few fans dumb enough to fall for it. Look, it’s not something I can prove but it’s a pretty big coincidence that the SNY and Daily News guys are all focusing on that.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 06 2018 07:49 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I don't think the Daily News writers feel constrained in any way. Maybe while they're on SNY, but not when they're writing for the News. The lack of prospects is definitely a problem, though hopefully a short-term one. David Lennon said on Thursday's Mets Hot Stove that the Nationals have four of the Top 100 (I don't recall whose list he was referencing) and the Phillies have six and the Braves have seven, while the Mets and Marlins each have zero.

Centerfield Jan 06 2018 08:28 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Harper is the most outspoken of the DN writers but as you mention when he was on SNY he completely neglected the payroll part of his article and focused only on the poor farm system. It was clear he was holding back. Kristie Ackert is basically invisible. She won’t touch the topic and has been MIA throughout this. Her articles read like spin directly from Wilpon PR.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2018 09:04 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I can't speak to their minds, but such a strategy has 0% chance of providing any coverage to anybody. >>> "Why don't you spend any money?" >>> >>> "Look, we can't make any trades because our GM has built a terrible farm system." >>> "OK, why don't you spend any money and why did you just re-sign your GM?" If it's a story that's been repeated, well, stories work that way, and it tends to happen.

Zvon Jan 06 2018 11:42 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: In their minds it does. Andy Martino said “the far bigger problem is the lack of prospects in the farm system.” It deflects focus onto something else. It provides another person to blame. And there are compromised journalists happy to promote the idea and a few fans dumb enough to fall for it. Look, it’s not something I can prove but it’s a pretty big coincidence that the SNY and Daily News guys are all focusing on that. Bingo, bongo, swish! That's a big problem with these owners. Their minds. sarcasm meter off [\ ] The deflecting focus/blame part rings true to me. While on SNY they think that is part of their job description/responsibilities.

Nymr83 Jan 09 2018 01:44 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

[url]http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22004988/jenrry-mejia-new-york-mets-agree-contract-formality-ban I assume the Wilpons are counting this, along with the portion of Wright's contract covered by insurance, towards the payroll limit.

Edgy MD Jan 09 2018 02:08 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Since payrolls are reported by non-stupid third parties, I'll guess not.

Centerfield Jan 09 2018 02:15 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Not that we are anywhere close but I would guess that counts for the luxury tax right?

Edgy MD Jan 09 2018 02:17 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It certainly will if he plays, and something in me suggests he will.

Centerfield Jan 11 2018 07:05 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

The "Are you happy now?" questions are annoying. No, I'm not happy. I want the Mets to spend like a big market team. A three year deal to a middling player being the marquee move of the winter does not qualify as that. I'll be happy when they have the financial capability and willingness to field a championship level team.

Centerfield Jan 17 2018 07:30 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Alderson said today that the Mets have the ability to sign an infielder to a significant contract. That's encouraging.

Centerfield Jan 19 2018 12:33 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Interesting development today in that it was announced that Marc Carig is leaving Newsday to join the Yankees beat for the Athletic. The Athletic is the subscription online site that Ken Rosenthal writes for. Rumblings are that this offer was extended during the Winter Meetings. Carig's article came afterwards. So basically, after years of being silent on the topic, he blew the lid off the doors when he knew he was on his way out. It really makes you think that there is something in play suppressing this NY media.

Nymr83 Jan 19 2018 12:51 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Or some asshat goinf to cover the yankees who wants to take a cheap shot at the Mets on the way out. This lessens the credibility to me.

MFS62 Jan 19 2018 02:25 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Nymr83 wrote: Or some asshat goinf to cover the yankees who wants to take a cheap shot at the Mets on the way out. This lessens the credibility to me. Asshat gonif, A totally appropriate confluence of cultures that perfectly describes most MFY writers. A keeper. Later

41Forever Jan 19 2018 02:49 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Interesting development today in that it was announced that Marc Carig is leaving Newsday to join the Yankees beat for the Athletic. The Athletic is the subscription online site that Ken Rosenthal writes for. Rumblings are that this offer was extended during the Winter Meetings. Carig's article came afterwards. So basically, after years of being silent on the topic, he blew the lid off the doors when he knew he was on his way out. It really makes you think that there is something in play suppressing this NY media. I don't understand what you think the writers are suppressing. Aren't there stories every winter calling the Wilpons cheap or incompetent? If anything, the New York media seems to lean toward unhinged rather than suppressed.

Ashie62 Jan 19 2018 03:54 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Maybe just me, but Baseball needs a bigazz Economic Model makeover. All this is just so b-o-r-i-n-g.

Centerfield Jan 23 2018 06:26 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Jeff Wilpon apparently had a conference call with beat writers and went extensively into the payroll. Says there is a plan. Where is Ambler when we need him?

41Forever Jan 23 2018 06:35 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Jeff Wilpon apparently had a conference call with beat writers and went extensively into the payroll. Says there is a plan. I'm not going to keep giving them free communications advice. :) Nice to see him doing that.

Ceetar Jan 23 2018 06:47 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

excited for his spin and lies so we can retroactively yell at him when a move doesn't seem to fit the new narrative. relatedly, the Mets announced some trainer stuff, biometrics, etc. That's where the real interesting stuff is.

Edgy MD Jan 23 2018 07:01 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

What has been announced? All I've seen is general talk about a growing understanding that training goes beyond the two guys in the dugout, but requires a broad support team. All of that is true and hardly news and welcome to the injury-aversion specialist and all, but I'm still waiting to find out who the two guys (or women) in the dugout will be.

Ceetar Jan 23 2018 07:12 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: What has been announced? All I've seen is general talk about a growing understanding that training goes beyond the two guys in the dugout, but requires a broad support team. All of that is true and hardly news and welcome to the injury-aversion specialist and all, but I'm still waiting to find out who the two guys (or women) in the dugout will be. the whole thing is still unofficial, they didn't announce the clubhouse staff yet but the director [url]https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/sports/mets-fitness-expert.html?smid=Ceetar Jim Cavallini, director of high performance

Edgy MD Jan 23 2018 07:14 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I guess my application for director of low performance is still being considered. /*pumpsfist

Ceetar Jan 23 2018 07:18 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Edgy MD wrote: I guess my application for director of low performance is still being considered. /*pumpsfist he learned this from LinkedIn. Nothing stopping you from setting that as your title and the Mets as your employer, and leaking it to him. see what happens ;-)

Ashie62 Jan 23 2018 11:48 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Jeff Wilpon apparently had a conference call with beat writers and went extensively into the payroll. Says there is a plan. I'm not going to keep giving them free communications advice. :) Nice to see him doing that. Here it is. Sounds like he is kinda throwing Dabid under the bus. [url]https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mets-coo-defends-payroll-being-top-five-in-payroll-hasnt-won-us-a-world-series/

Zvon Jan 24 2018 12:20 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ashie62 wrote: Here it is. Sounds like he is kinda throwing Dabid under the bus. [url]https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mets-coo-defends-payroll-being-top-five-in-payroll-hasnt-won-us-a-world-series/ OMG! I'm gonna end never going to a Mets game again!!! Jeffy is just too damn young! Well, I'll watch em on MLB.TV. I'll throw 'em that morsel.

Centerfield Jan 24 2018 12:35 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It makes me sick. Mets fans have to separate the team they love from the crooks that own it.

Zvon Jan 24 2018 01:21 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: It makes me sick. Mets fans have to separate the team they love from the crooks that own it. I wish I could. I want to go out and watch em play. But I can't..... [youtube]1jOk8dk-qaU[/youtube] OE: Also, living way down here makes my stand a little easier. If I lived up in NYC, or even around it, I wouldn't be able to stay away, pretty sure. But instead of going to 15 or so games a season, I'd cut that down to 3 or 4.

Centerfield Jan 24 2018 02:58 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Sandy Alderson says we should be looking at alternative facts. https://www.mlb.com/news/mets-owner-jef ... -265182534 "You've just got to take another look at the facts from a slightly different perspective," Alderson said. "We've already spent more money than most teams this season. We've had one of the rare big, big contracts in the last couple of seasons. No, we're not running out and signing everybody. But at the same time, in instances, we've stepped up and signed players and made moves in some cases where others haven't. We'll continue to consider those types of things in the future." You have to figure that Sandy is bright enough to know he is talking bullshit here.

Zvon Jan 24 2018 03:31 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Sandy Alderson says we should be looking at alternative facts. https://www.mlb.com/news/mets-owner-jef ... -265182534 "You've just got to take another look at the facts from a slightly different perspective," Alderson said. "We've already spent more money than most teams this season. We've had one of the rare big, big contracts in the last couple of seasons. No, we're not running out and signing everybody. But at the same time, in instances, we've stepped up and signed players and made moves in some cases where others haven't. We'll continue to consider those types of things in the future." You have to figure that Sandy is bright enough to know he is talking bullshit here. OH, he does. He is a master of soothing smooth talk. I love the guy tho. We are very fortunate he's our GM. Imagine where we'd be with a GM of lesser intelligence. And IMO Sandy is one of the smartest out there.

Ceetar Jan 24 2018 03:44 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Zvon wrote: Sandy Alderson says we should be looking at alternative facts. https://www.mlb.com/news/mets-owner-jef ... -265182534 "You've just got to take another look at the facts from a slightly different perspective," Alderson said. "We've already spent more money than most teams this season. We've had one of the rare big, big contracts in the last couple of seasons. No, we're not running out and signing everybody. But at the same time, in instances, we've stepped up and signed players and made moves in some cases where others haven't. We'll continue to consider those types of things in the future." You have to figure that Sandy is bright enough to know he is talking bullshit here. OH, he does. He is a master of soothing smooth talk. I love the guy tho. We are very fortunate he's our GM. Imagine where we'd be with a GM of lesser intelligence. And IMO Sandy is one of the smartest out there. it's factually very accurate.

Vic Sage Jan 24 2018 03:55 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

here are some actual facts: [u:2b8ha3nb]opening day payrolls[/u:2b8ha3nb] 2011 (pre-Madoff): 120m (7th) 2012: 93.3m (14th) 2013: 73.4m (23rd) 2014: 89m (22nd) 2015: 101.4m (21st) 2016: 99.6m (19th) 2017: 155m (12th) During these years, we were often outspent by the Twins and Padres, while the Yankees and Dodgers led the league with payrolls in the 200-270m range. What's true is that the Mets were damaged by Madoff and the debt that now hangs over this franchise like a sword of Damocles prevents us from spending in proportion to our revenue and market size, keeping us in the Minny/SD budget range. So we're competing with 1 hand tied behind our backs, unable to take advantage of our market size to give us a competitive edge. Now every move has to be the right one, every guy we bring up has to be a stud, or we can't win. no margin for error. But technically, Sandy was correct when he said that "we've already spent more than most teams this season," if he means by that the Mets payroll last year was 12th (better than 18 other teams!). Of course that was the first time that was true over the past 5 years, while the other NY team (and the LA team) were spending more than double the Mets payroll in the same size media markets. But if he is referring to the upcoming season, we have no idea what he'll have spent by the time the season begins; so far, its Bruce and Swarzak, while almost none of the major free agents have been signed. so again, his accuracy is hanging on a technicality of timing. We'll see where we end up by opening day. If we've signed Darvish, Cain and Moustakas, i'll be impressed. If we sign Lynn and Frazier, at least we'll have some leeway. If its Colon and Nunez, the rotation will have to come back awfully strong, along with Conforto, and Rosario will have to take a big step forward. If its Reyes and a bucket of balls, we're fucked.

Zvon Jan 24 2018 04:46 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: Sandy Alderson says we should be looking at alternative facts. https://www.mlb.com/news/mets-owner-jef ... -265182534 "You've just got to take another look at the facts from a slightly different perspective," Alderson said. "We've already spent more money than most teams this season. We've had one of the rare big, big contracts in the last couple of seasons. No, we're not running out and signing everybody. But at the same time, in instances, we've stepped up and signed players and made moves in some cases where others haven't. We'll continue to consider those types of things in the future." You have to figure that Sandy is bright enough to know he is talking bullshit here. OH, he does. He is a master of soothing smooth talk. I love the guy tho. We are very fortunate he's our GM. Imagine where we'd be with a GM of lesser intelligence. And IMO Sandy is one of the smartest out there. it's factually very accurate. Of course it is. Sandy would never be caught lying. < No joke or sarcasm there.

Centerfield Jan 24 2018 07:50 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

here are some actual facts: opening day payrolls 2011 (pre-Madoff): 120m (7th) 2012: 93.3m (14th) 2013: 73.4m (23rd) 2014: 89m (22nd) 2015: 101.4m (21st) 2016: 99.6m (19th) 2017: 155m (12th) During these years, we were often outspent by the Twins and Padres, while the Yankees and Dodgers led the league with payrolls in the 200-270m range. What's true is that the Mets were damaged by Madoff and the debt that now hangs over this franchise like a sword of Damocles prevents us from spending in proportion to our revenue and market size, keeping us in the Minny/SD budget range. So we're competing with 1 hand tied behind our backs, unable to take advantage of our market size to give us a competitive edge. Now every move has to be the right one, every guy we bring up has to be a stud, or we can't win. no margin for error. But technically, Sandy was correct when he said that "we've already spent more than most teams this season," if he means by that the Mets payroll last year was 12th (better than 18 other teams!). Of course that was the first time that was true over the past 5 years, while the other NY team (and the LA team) were spending more than double the Mets payroll in the same size media markets. But if he is referring to the upcoming season, we have no idea what he'll have spent by the time the season begins; so far, its Bruce and Swarzak, while almost none of the major free agents have been signed. so again, his accuracy is hanging on a technicality of timing. We'll see where we end up by opening day. If we've signed Darvish, Cain and Moustakas, i'll be impressed. If we sign Lynn and Frazier, at least we'll have some leeway. If its Colon and Nunez, the rotation will have to come back awfully strong, along with Conforto, and Rosario will have to take a big step forward. If its Reyes and a bucket of balls, we're fucked. Yup. And though every statement that Alderson makes is fact, the overall inference, (Hey, we are spending) is false.

Ceetar Jan 24 2018 08:52 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

It's not though. They did in fact commit more money near the top last offseason, and have again this offseason, though this offseason doesn't actually count. But if they did indeed sign a free agent infielder and especially if they also get another starter, then it'll remain true.

Edgy MD Jan 24 2018 09:03 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Yeah, the Mets added the third most last off-season and the fifth-most so far this off-season. According to spotrac, anyhow. There's plenty of reason to be encouraged by those numbers, if you're of a mind to. But there's plenty of reason to see it in such context as (1) hey, they started from an abnormally low baseline a few years back, (2) they had something of a selloff in the interim (though mostly of players in the last year of their contracts), and (3) that chart doesn't include salary added through trades, such as the Yankees took on when adding Stanton. I'd certainly say what Sandy said if I was in his loafers.

Centerfield Jan 24 2018 09:31 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

I would too. But then I'd go home and realize that smart people aren't buying my bullshit. At the end of the day, everyone knows the Mets don't spend enough. There is no way to spin it or to cover it up, or to soften the blow. You either spend or you don't. The Wilpons will get a reprieve when, and only when, they spend like a big market team. The problem is really self-inflicted. With no leaks or rumblings coming from the Mets, the trend is very encouraging. Low payroll during the rebuilding years, steady increase as the team gets competitive, and you figure, high-priced free agents will be added during the window of contention. Even during this offseason, the Mets could plausibly be waiting out the market for Darvish and JD Martinez, with money to spend at their disposal. It's the reports that the 2017 payroll was over budget, and the rumblings that payroll is getting slashed in 2018 that have fans in an uproar. You wonder why that information leaked. Did the Wilpons think that doing so would soften the blow when we ultimately ended up not spending? Or was it to test the waters, and now they're saying "Holy shit, we better spend". I have no idea. Jeff Wilpon could have put this whole thing to rest. "Look, we've heard the reports about cutting the payroll and we have no idea where these guys are getting their info. The payroll is fluid. If we see a deal, we'll take it, but we are not going to bid against ourselves. We know our payroll has been low for NY. But it's on the rise, and we do not expect payroll to restrict our ability to improve this team and field a championship contender. I'm also here to put to bed the rumors that we are cash strapped or in debt because of Madoff. We have the ability to fund a big market payroll. Once we see the right fits, we see no reason we can't get back there." Now the fans are confident. Instead, his words basically confirmed what we have long suspected. That the Mets would like to fund a top tier payroll, but are unable to do so. Did he really pull the WFAN caller logic of "Payroll doesn't guarantee championships"? Come on. He must think we are idiots.

Ceetar Jan 24 2018 09:39 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Jeff Wilpon could have put this whole thing to rest. "Look, we've heard the reports about cutting the payroll and we have no idea where these guys are getting their info. The payroll is fluid. If we see a deal, we'll take it, but we are not going to bid against ourselves. We know our payroll has been low for NY. But it's on the rise, and we do not expect payroll to restrict our ability to improve this team and field a championship contender. I'm also here to put to bed the rumors that we are cash strapped or in debt because of Madoff. We have the ability to fund a big market payroll. Once we see the right fits, we see no reason we can't get back there." He did say most of that. And a lot of the reports about their payroll have already been proven false. It just so happens it's an easy narrative to hit when someone gives you an anonymous quote that kinda fits. YOu know what would've shut up the fans? if they'd won last year. Even if they'd won 84 games. Instead they executed a pivot, dumped some guys, grabbed some relievers, and shut some guys down earlier than they might've. They lost a lot more games that way. But it gave them some reliever depth, and a slightly higher draft pick. The payroll HAS been steadily increasing most years and they have acquired players every year lately. You could certainly argue for them doing more, spending more, making bigger gambles each year, but I don't see any justification that they're doing the bare minimum by far.

Centerfield Jan 24 2018 10:29 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Ceetar wrote: YOu know what would've shut up the fans? if they'd won last year. Even if they'd won 84 games. Maybe dumb fans. Smart ones can separate out results and preparation. Good results can happen to anyone. Good luck can strike at any time. Simply because someone or something had a good result does not mean that the person was well prepared. On the other hand, well-prepared folks are not guaranteed success. Just as there is good luck, there is bad luck. Individual results should not affect anyone's judgment in determining how to best prepare for the next event. Whether you fail or succeed, going forward, all participants should take actions to best maximize their chance of success at the next opportunity. Over time, the well-prepared folks, the ones who maximize their chances of success, will see sustained results over the one-off, random success of the lucky ones. This is why mothers do not implore their children to buy lottery tickets. Even if the Mets had won the World Series in 2017, I would be advocating for them to field the best possible team in 2018. And that means spending money.

41Forever Jan 24 2018 10:50 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Even if the Mets had won the World Series in 2017, I would be advocating for them to field the best possible team in 2018. And that means spending money. Let me fix that: And that means spending money wisely.

Ceetar Jan 24 2018 11:09 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Centerfield wrote: Ceetar wrote: YOu know what would've shut up the fans? if they'd won last year. Even if they'd won 84 games. Maybe dumb fans. Smart ones can separate out results and preparation. Well, there's been a lot of talk about the Mets 2017 record. Here and on the Internet at large.

Zvon Jan 24 2018 11:33 PM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Vic Sage wrote: If its Reyes and a bucket of balls, we're fucked. I read this last night and cracked up. Just read it again and it might be even funnier. I think I can hear you actually saying it even though I have no idea what your voice sounds like.

Vic Sage Jan 25 2018 03:54 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Zvon wrote: Vic Sage wrote: If its Reyes and a bucket of balls, we're fucked. I read this last night and cracked up. Just read it again and it might be even funnier. I think I can hear you actually saying it even though I have no idea what your voice sounds like. My voice? A shot of Jim Morrison, a jigger of Bob Seger, a dash of Andrew Dice Clay, shaken well (not stirred). And then i wake up and realize I'm Streisand on testosterone.

Zvon Jan 25 2018 07:41 AM Re: FAKE NEWS - Payroll 2018

Vic Sage wrote: Vic Sage wrote: If its Reyes and a bucket of balls, we're fucked. I read this last night and cracked up. Just read it again and it might be even funnier. I think I can hear you actually saying it even though I have no idea what your voice sounds like. My voice? A shot of Jim Morrison, a jigger of Bob Seger, a dash of Andrew Dice Clay, shaken well (not stirred). And then i wake up and realize I'm Streisand on testosterone. OMG, I think the world itself is becoming a comedy zone! *takes off tie, puts on a dickey