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Dee Gordon

Mex17 Nov 01 2017 10:50 AM

It's time for another Marlins fire sale, and this time it is Jeter doing the Crazy Eddie routine. Dee Gordon is rumored to be on the block, and I think that this is who the Mets ought to target. Speed, OBP, stolen bases, Gold Glove caliber defense at second base. Going into his age 30 season in 2018 and locked in for four more years. Put him at the top of the lineup and let him do his thing. Also, having him, Rosario, and Lagares up the middle ought to prevent a lot of runs from being scored against us. If Flores and Wheeler was able to net Carlos Gomez two years ago, then Flores, Wheeler, and Guillorme should be able to get Gordon now, yes? By adding Guillorme, they might even be able to snag away one of the several "projectable" young outfielders that the Marlins have at the lower end of their top 30 prospects list. http://m.mlb.com/prospects/2017?list=mia

41Forever Nov 01 2017 12:27 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Hes coming off a PED suspension. How do his post-PED numbers look?

Edgy MD Nov 01 2017 12:32 PM Re: Dee Gordon

I think Gordon, or somebody like him, could certainly help the Mets. Flores, Wheeler, and Guillorme? That sounds real steep.

Ceetar Nov 01 2017 01:45 PM Re: Dee Gordon

career 4.5% BB rate. 10.5 mil, 13 mil, 13.5 mil contract. Can I get a hell no? Like, I'd take him if it was a stipulation of the Stanton deal maybe, but as a throw in. I'm not GIVING up anything for what's at best a major league average player.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 01:54 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Ceetar wrote: career 4.5% BB rate. 10.5 mil, 13 mil, 13.5 mil contract. Can I get a hell no? Like, I'd take him if it was a stipulation of the Stanton deal maybe, but as a throw in. I'm not GIVING up anything for what's at best a major league average player. Holy crap. I'm about to agree with Ceetar. What the hell is going on? Yeah, .696 career OPS. .716 last year, .640 the year before. The batting average and speed are nice, but nothing to see here.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 01:56 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Meanwhile, Wilmer put up a .795 OPS last year (career .725), and is younger and cheaper.

d'Kong76 Nov 01 2017 02:02 PM Re: Dee Gordon

He's certainly not worth the $50 million he's owed for the next 4 years. Jeter can keep that headache, thank you. OE: the last year is a team option, but still

Lefty Specialist Nov 01 2017 02:25 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Speed is something the Mets are very short of. Gordon doesn't walk, but he doesn't have to lead off if Rosario is the player he's supposed to be. And he stole more bases than the Mets entire team last year. I can live with Gordon's contract especially if Jeter and the Marlins eat some of it. The Mets could then lock down second base and not have to worry about a bunch of guys who can 'kinda' play second base, like Flores and Rivera and Cabrera and Cecchini and so on.

Frayed Knot Nov 01 2017 02:59 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Rosario doesn't walk either.

Edgy MD Nov 01 2017 03:05 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Well, I'm slow to make any definitive determination on Rosario, but yeah, he's certainly not an automatic pencil into the leadoff spot. Any notions with regard to whether Zach Cosart's giant leap forward this past season makes him attractive? Does Ian Kinsler's giant fart backwards portend the notion that he's finished?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 01 2017 03:29 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Farting backwards is easy. Guys who can fart forwards are always in demand.

Ceetar Nov 01 2017 03:34 PM Re: Dee Gordon

If fart's are the criteria, I guess we need Adam Lind? [tweet:33xt16iv]https://twitter.com/aarongleeman/status/832301527201103872[/tweet:33xt16iv]

Valadius Nov 01 2017 05:13 PM Re: Dee Gordon

I'll pass.

Edgy MD Nov 01 2017 05:22 PM Re: Dee Gordon

That Lind article was delightful bit of diversion.

41Forever Nov 01 2017 05:31 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Edgy MD wrote: That Lind article was delightful bit of diversion. That was a deeper analysis than the look into the shots from the grassy knoll. Love the close examination of the kids in the stands. Funny stuff.

Lefty Specialist Nov 02 2017 12:56 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Ceetar wrote: If fart's are the criteria, I guess we need Adam Lind? [tweet]https://twitter.com/aarongleeman/status/832301527201103872[/tweet] Omigod, I just giggled for ten minutes.

smg58 Nov 03 2017 01:06 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Fangraphs valued Gordon at $26M this season, so his salary should not be a deterrent. The concern is that when you have a guy whose game revolves so entirely around speed, his value disintegrates quickly once he inevitably loses a step (see Cedeno, Roger). I'd be worried about the third and fourth years, but not to the point of dismissing him entirely.

metirish Nov 03 2017 01:56 PM Re: Dee Gordon

smg58 wrote: Fangraphs valued Gordon at $26M this season, so his salary should not be a deterrent. The concern is that when you have a guy whose game revolves so entirely around speed, his value disintegrates quickly once he inevitably loses a step (see Cedeno, Roger). I'd be worried about the third and fourth years, but not to the point of dismissing him entirely. Does this Front Office value speed? ,does Callaway?

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 02:51 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks.

Ceetar Nov 03 2017 03:12 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Centerfield wrote: Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks. for more money.

Mex17 Nov 03 2017 10:32 PM Re: Dee Gordon Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 04 2017 01:59 AM

Centerfield wrote: Meanwhile, Wilmer put up a .795 OPS last year (career .725), and is younger and cheaper. Judging Gordon based upon his OPS is like judging a fish based upon it's ability to ride a bicycle since half of that stat is based upon Slugging Percentage and slugging is not part of Gordon's game. We also do not know if Flores can play a full season while keeping up that level of production. He had 482 AB's in 2015 as opposed to 336 last year and 307 in 2016, but that came with a .706 OPS compared to the .795 that you mentioned for this year and .788 in 2016. His half year suspension in 2016 notwithstanding, Gordon has been in the lineup consistently starting from 2014 with 600+ ABs every year. Flores is also a square peg plugged into a round hole defensively at second (or at best he is league average). Gordon already has a GG from 2015 and I would not be surprised if he gets another one this year. Take a look at the range and the hands for yourself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tj4ahh2mZT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMT0-REHqB8 Gordon has a 2.7 WAR from 2017 compared to Flores' .3, which is not insignificant. I'm sure a lot of that also comes from the speed and stolen bases in addition to the defense and hitting for average. Do you think that the speed/stolen bases aspect of his game will be gone when he reaches his age 33 season? I admit that I may have overstated OBP as a factor. Among qualifiers for second basemen, Gordon ranked 8th in OBP. The guys above him were Altuve, Murphy, LeMahieu, Cesar Hernandez, Lowrie, Dozier, and Panik (Flores did not qualify presumably due to lack of ABs). Assuming that the options for Altuve and Lowrie are picked up, are any of these realistically available in the trade market like Gordon is going to be? If you can make the case that one is going to be, then we can talk about what that player brings to the table over Gordon.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2017 11:33 PM Re: Dee Gordon

You're kind of hijacking the fish/bicycle analogy from Irina Dunn, and breaking it. It's circular logic to say you can't judge Gordon based on his not slugging well because he doesn't slug well. Sure I can.

Ceetar Nov 04 2017 01:40 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Gordon may be 8th in OBP among qualifying 2B, but that's mostly because of empty AVG. He doesn't walk. In terms of wRC+ as in, RUNS created, weighted for park and what not, he's 32nd among all 2B with at least 200 PA. He created most of the value with his legs, and a 78% success rate isn't bad, but all it takes is some bad luck, a fraction slower, a nagging injury for that value to be all but negated. The Mets really need another hitter they can rely on, with SS/1B being rookies, it not being that easy to upgrade catcher or count on either Plawecki or d'Arnaud to be more than me, and the potential for Comforto to miss some time early and/or Nimmo/Lagares not being hitters. Gordon can't hit.

Mex17 Nov 04 2017 02:17 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Edgy MD wrote: You're kind of hijacking the fish/bicycle analogy from Irina Dunn, and breaking it. It's circular logic to say you can't judge Gordon based on his not slugging well because he doesn't slug well. Sure I can. Do you judge Tom Brady based upon his inability to rush from the pocket the way that Vick used to?

Ashie62 Nov 04 2017 02:33 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Ceetar wrote: Centerfield wrote: Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks. for more money. Yes to Cf and Ceets.

Edgy MD Nov 04 2017 03:19 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Mex17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: You're kind of hijacking the fish/bicycle analogy from Irina Dunn, and breaking it. It's circular logic to say you can't judge Gordon based on his not slugging well because he doesn't slug well. Sure I can. Do you judge Tom Brady based upon his inability to rush from the pocket the way that Vick used to? I don't follow football.

Mex17 Nov 04 2017 12:25 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Ceetar wrote: In terms of wRC+ as in, RUNS created, weighted for park and what not, he's 32nd among all 2B with at least 200 PA. I'm not trying to be snarky, but is there a comparable stat to this one that quantifies outs created or runs prevented?

smg58 Nov 04 2017 03:38 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Centerfield wrote: Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks. Luis Castillo in his prime was a very good player. Minaya paid for Castillio in his prime when he was clearly past it. Gordon is still in his prime, but he turns 30 in April and, like I said before, his value will most likely fall off a cliff at some point. The questions are how much value can you get from him in the meantime, and will it be worth the cost to get him. I'm for weighing as many options as I can find, and while he's a flawed option, he's good enough to not simply dismiss.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 04 2017 05:18 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Man, screw Dee Gordon. We prob don't have the chips, but I'd call the Twins and ask what the price tag is on Brian Dozier.

Edgy MD Nov 04 2017 07:33 PM Re: Dee Gordon

THAT'S brain thinkin'!

Mex17 Nov 05 2017 03:01 PM Re: Dee Gordon

You think that Dozier might be available because he is going into his walk year. Can you tell me that you have seen a reputable report that the Twins are actually going to put him on the block? I'm just trying to go with stuff that is actually in the ether, and there have been reports that Jeter wants to slash the Miami payroll and moving Gordon is part of that plan. Notwithstanding that, while I am not totally coming off the Gordon thing (mostly because I am intrigued over what a Gordon/Rosario/Lagares combo up the middle can do with regard to preventing opposing runs from being scored), let me float another idea. . . Harper suggested signing Bruce, Eduardo Nunez, and Brandon Kintzler. I'm going to focus on one third of that (Nunez). Say you sign Nunez to a reasonable contact and you leave Bruce alone. Now you have Nunez, Cabrera, Flores, and Rivera. All of them can play multiple positions, (albeit not at a high level the way that Gordon can at second base. . .just saying), including the outfield in the case of Nunez and, to a lesser extent, Rivera. All of them can contribute with the bat (and probably slug better than Gordon can, I'll give you that). None of them I think can be counted on to play a complete 162 game schedule and give you 600 ABs. Say that you can pencil Cabrera in for 500 ABs, Nunez for 450-ish, Flores for 400, and Rivera for 300. You also have Lagares who, at this point, you really need to give playing time to in order to determine if you want to really pay him the $9 million that he is guaranteed for 2019 or create enough of a trade market for him that you can move that off of your payroll. With this, you have a lot of positions on the field covered but you are not really not locking yourself down long term with one specific guy at one particular spot. You save the money by not signing Bruce and, although I like the idea of Kintzler, you go with a little bit of a cheaper but still value-added option such as Joe Smith or someone like that. The money you save there goes towards a Lance Lynn/Alex Cobb/Jason Vargas type. This, assuming other things like other players coming back from injury and performing up to expectations and perhaps even making some steps forward, probably gives you a team that will have a winning record but probably will not overtake the Nats in 2018 (instead, they will be in the hunt for a wild card spot). Now the Hot Stove going into 2019 comes around. Cabrera is off the books (and Harvey as well) and the money owed to Wright even after adjusting for the insurance reimbursement starts to go down. You still have options (in the general sense, not actual minor league options) in the forms of Nunez, Flores, Rivera, and Lagares, but you are not overly financially committed to any of them nor are you locked down with having to play any one of them at any one position (and you also have some versatility with Conforto with regard to CF or RF), and you can still trade any one of them assuming that Nunez is not going to command a no-trade clause. Now you are in a prime position to go shopping when the likes of Harper, Machado, Dozier, Blackmon, Donaldson, Murphy, and LeMahieu are all going to be available on the open market. Snag one or possibly two of them in an environment where the Nats are likely to lose Harper and possibly Murphy as well, and now you are in a position to take over the division. What I am trying to get at is, while you do want to make some impactful additions for 2018, you need to do it with an eye towards 2019 when the real cheddar is going to be out there. You also have to keep in mind the need to eventually lock down deGrom, Syndergaard, maybe Familia, and a little farther down the line Conforto past their free agent years, but that is probably a topic for another time.

Edgy MD Nov 05 2017 04:32 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Mex17 wrote: You think that Dozier might be available because he is going into his walk year. Can you tell me that you have seen a reputable report that the Twins are actually going to put him on the block? I'm just trying to go with stuff that is actually in the ether, and there have been reports that Jeter wants to slash the Miami payroll and moving Gordon is part of that plan. No, he wrote that he'd call the Twins and inquire. And here's Carl Pohlad waxing philosophically on what it would take to move Brian Dozier. Ether. It's in it.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 05 2017 04:37 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Dozier was all but traded to the Dodgers last offseason, but the Twins held out for DeLeon (plus another stud - Cody Bellinger was on their wish list) so LA said "FU" and went and got Logan Forsythe instead. Ken Rosenthal hasn't called me to confirm or anything, but I'd bet he's available. Edit: Edgy replied for me better than me.

Mex17 Nov 05 2017 05:58 PM Re: Dee Gordon

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Dozier was all but traded to the Dodgers last offseason, but the Twins held out for DeLeon (plus another stud - Cody Bellinger was on their wish list) so LA said "FU" and went and got Logan Forsythe instead. Ken Rosenthal hasn't called me to confirm or anything, but I'd bet he's available. Edit: Edgy replied for me better than me. Okay, but I would still lean against spending a lot of player capital to get him now when I can pick him up (along with a variety of other big ticket free agents) a year from now. On edit: Maybe the deal that I originally proposed for a Gordon might be more appropriate for Dozier, but only if it comes with a contract extension for Dozier now. I don't want to pay a huge price for a one year rental.

Ceetar Nov 06 2017 03:58 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Mex17 wrote: Ceetar wrote: In terms of wRC+ as in, RUNS created, weighted for park and what not, he's 32nd among all 2B with at least 200 PA. I'm not trying to be snarky, but is there a comparable stat to this one that quantifies outs created or runs prevented? you mean on the defensive side? Defensive stats are a little less reliable. (in that we're not as sure they're capturing the whole picture. It's a lot easier to estimate how many runs score after a single based on the entire history of baseball than to figure out how many more balls one guy fields than another) Gordon has the best fangraphs Def meaning Fielding and positional adjustments But he's 14th in Defensive Runs Saved with 3. He's 9th in UZR/150 which is Ultimate Zone Rating adjusted to a 150 game schedule/sample. Factors in arm, double plays ,range, etc.

Mex17 Nov 07 2017 10:51 AM Re: Dee Gordon

http://nypost.com/2017/11/06/dee-gordon ... ee-agency/ Puma suggests the Gordon idea in print. . .

Mex17 Nov 07 2017 11:04 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Ceetar wrote: He's 9th in UZR/150 which is Ultimate Zone Rating adjusted to a 150 game schedule/sample. Factors in arm, double plays ,range, etc. I'm a little surprised that it's that low, but that's the type of thing I was looking for. Say you have one of the highest UZRs in the league as a second baseman, and this results in a spectacular play in a big spot when the opponent is primed to score or just to keep a runner of the basepaths before the big slugger comes up (so that your defense keeps a double from resulting in an RBI or prevents the solo home run from being a two-run shot). That kind of stuff should counteract a low slugging percentage when you are evaluating the entire player.

Ceetar Nov 07 2017 02:22 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Mex17 wrote: Ceetar wrote: He's 9th in UZR/150 which is Ultimate Zone Rating adjusted to a 150 game schedule/sample. Factors in arm, double plays ,range, etc. I'm a little surprised that it's that low, but that's the type of thing I was looking for. Say you have one of the highest UZRs in the league as a second baseman, and this results in a spectacular play in a big spot when the opponent is primed to score or just to keep a runner of the basepaths before the big slugger comes up (so that your defense keeps a double from resulting in an RBI or prevents the solo home run from being a two-run shot). That kind of stuff should counteract a low slugging percentage when you are evaluating the entire player. That's luck though. You could go an entire season without getting that ball in that spot in that situation. You're actually talking about a rather narrow area in which Gordon gets to a ball and another guy doesn't. UZR, defensive runs saved, etc, attempt to average that out. It's the equivalent of saying you should give a guy that hits .220/.260/.450 more credit for his home runs because they might come in key spots. For every ball you can point to and think "Gordon would've gotten that" there are more spots you can point to and say "Walker would've driven that guy in." There's also thoughts that you can mitigate a lot of bad defense with good shifting (something the Mets didn't do last year) making hte difference between a meh defender and a good one less.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 15 2017 02:55 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Kristie Ackert today reports, briefly, that the Mets and Marlins talked this week, and implies that Dee Gordon was discussed. The two teams have decided that there's no deal to be made, at least not at the moment. The Marlins have more of a focus on trading Stanton and will turn their attention to Gordon at a later point.

Centerfield Nov 15 2017 05:20 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Hopefully the conversation was along the lines of: Miami: Hey do you guys want Dee Gordon? Mets: Fuck no, he sucks. What else you got?

Edgy MD Nov 15 2017 07:01 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Jeter: Hey, do you guys want Dee Gordon? He can be had for the right offer. Alderson: I'm sorry. I stopped listening after Gordon. Jeter: He's still good! He can steal 50 bases, and he plays great defense! Alderson: What do you know about defense?

Centerfield Nov 15 2017 07:33 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Jeter: Hey, do you guys want Dee Gordon? He can be had for the right offer. Alderson: I'm sorry. I stopped listening after Gordon. Jeter: He's still good! He can steal 50 bases, and he plays great defense! Alderson: What do you know about defense? Ouch. OUCH.

Vic Sage Nov 15 2017 07:49 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Jeter: Hey, do you guys want Dee Gordon? He can be had for the right offer. Alderson: I'm sorry. I stopped listening after Gordon. Jeter: He's still good! He can steal 50 bases, and he plays great defense! Alderson: What do you know about defense? BOC, dude. BOC.

41Forever Nov 15 2017 10:32 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Jeter: Hey, do you guys want Dee Gordon? He can be had for the right offer. Alderson: I'm sorry. I stopped listening after Gordon. Jeter: He's still good! He can steal 50 bases, and he plays great defense! Alderson: What do you know about defense? BAM!

Nymr83 Nov 15 2017 10:35 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Ceetar wrote: Centerfield wrote: Guys, this is like Luis Castillo without the walks. for more money. Exactly. Pass. The only conversations I want to have with the Marlins start with "ok, so for a bag of balls, you'll pay a third of Stanton's contract, but if we keep the balls and throw in d'Arnaud you'll only pay a fourth?" Or "No, I didnt realize you were dumb enough to trade Ozuna. Yes, of course we'll give back Nimmo"

Valadius Dec 07 2017 10:09 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Dee Gordon traded to the Mariners.

Ashie62 Dec 07 2017 10:43 PM Re: Dee Gordon

We have a 2b, Wilmer Flores.

A Boy Named Seo Dec 07 2017 10:52 PM Re: Dee Gordon

MLBTR sez the Marlins get Seattle's #2 ranked pitcher Nick Niedert (although "scouts have not been all that high on Neidert’s future prospects in the majors"), and two additional A-ball players. The M's inherit all of Dee's contract ($38M/3 years) and they will apparently plug him in as their new centerfielder. #JuanSamuel2.0 Maybe the most important tidbit is the Mariners got $1M of Miami's international bonus $$, which gives them the most $$ to offer of the 7 teams left in the Ohtani sweepstakes. I guess if that $1M puts them over-the-top to land the big fella from Japan, then the M's could be... like, mediocre? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Rotation led by Paxton, the rotting corpse of Felix Hernandez, and Ohtani, and an offense featuring Dee Gordon, Ohtani, Robinson Cano, Corey Seager's brother, and Father Time Nelson Cruz. They kinda have to get Ohtani or they're just gonna be an old, shitty 73-win team. Good trade!

seawolf17 Dec 07 2017 10:54 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Good for the Mariners if they do get Ohtani. (If it's not us, I want him in either Seattle or Texas.)

smg58 Dec 08 2017 01:31 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Trading for Gordon to move him to centerfield seems... dangerous. The Marlins freed payroll and got a bit more than nothing in return, so they're happy. There are plenty of options still out there, and he wasn't my first choice anyway, so I'm not broken up about this.

Centerfield Dec 08 2017 03:33 AM Re: Dee Gordon

This is a great deal since it means he will not be a Met.

Edgy MD Dec 08 2017 03:59 AM Re: Dee Gordon

I thought just about all of the other options were superior. That is, if they're real options.

Nymr83 Dec 08 2017 05:31 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Centerfield wrote: This is a great deal since it means he will not be a Met. Exactly. The only downside is he won't be available against us. Oh and he dominated the Phillies but got killed by the Nationals

41Forever Dec 08 2017 10:19 AM Re: Dee Gordon

Don’t the Mariners already have Robinson Cano at second? Or has he moved to another position?

HahnSolo Dec 08 2017 12:09 PM Re: Dee Gordon

Gordon is going to play center. Really.

41Forever Dec 08 2017 12:22 PM Re: Dee Gordon

HahnSolo wrote: Gordon is going to play center. Really. Just got Juan Samuel flashbacks, and they weren’t good ones!

Mex17 Dec 08 2017 01:46 PM Re: Dee Gordon

a) Jeter is quickly proving that he is way out over his skis as a GM. b) Why would the Mariners get a guy who won a Gold Glove at second base two years ago only to throw him in centerfield? I know the player really has no offical "say" in the matter because he in under contract without a no trade clause, but as the team do you at least have a discussion with the player (or his agent) before making that type of move? c) If that is the price for Gordon, than I think that the Mets have enough to offer in order to get a good second baseman.

smg58 Dec 08 2017 03:31 PM Re: Dee Gordon

The Marlins ate no money and got a bit more than nothing in return, at a time when zero free agent infielders have signed yet. I question the Mariners' thinking more than the Marlins' on this one. The bigger question is how do you expect to build up a fan base in Miami when fire sales are already routine, and the first thing you do is hold a fire sale.

Frayed Knot Dec 08 2017 08:19 PM Re: Dee Gordon

I think Jeter and co. expect this kind of trade (present talent for future) to help them with the Stanton process: "Yo Giancarlo, accept the deal we offer you or you're going to be really miserable around here the next couple years cuz the longer you stall on this the more of these we gotta make."