Master Index of Archived Threads


Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Mex17 Nov 01 2017 10:57 AM

1) Regarding third base, do you go after Frazier or Moustakis now, or do you pick up Cabrera's option, let him play third in 2018, and wait for Machado and Donaldson to hit the market a year from now? 2) Do you go after a big corner outfield bat (as in Bruce or JD Martinez), thereby forcing Conforto to centerfield again (and subsequently Lagares to the bench or to another team), or do you place more value in the prospect of Lagares preventing runs from being scored against you as opposed to another big money slugger creating runs on your behalf? What say you?

Edgy MD Nov 01 2017 12:44 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

We've got a lot o' Moustakas threads.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 01:49 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

You know, I was thinking that the Mets need to primarily add pitching this winter, and add one solid bat somewhere. But now watching these post-season games, I feel like the Mets are light years away offensively. I mean, these guys have such talent up and down their lineup. Don't like Moustakas or Frazier. We have enough low BA guys. Of the hitters available this winter, I think only JD Martinez is a difference maker. Lorenzo Cain can fill a need. Neil Walker to a lesser extent. My plan (borrowing from the LA Dodgers playbook): Sign Wade Davis and Greg Holland. Sign Yu Darvish. Trade some of the leftover starters and/or AJ Ramos for a super-lefty reliever. Haven't exactly identified one yet but it's only Nov. 1. Exercise the option on Jerry Blevins. Exercise the option on Asdrubal Cabrera and slot him at 2B. Sign JD Martinez. Sign Lorenzo Cain. Try Cespedes and Conforto at 3B (hey they are athletes!) and see which one is better. Leave the better one there and move the other one back to LF. This is hard, I realize, with Conforto hurt, but winning doesn't come without a cost, and winners never quit! Sign Lucas Duda to be your lefty bat off the bench and to DH during interleague away games. If you want to go economical, you can skip the Lorenzo Cain signing, go with Flores/Rivera at 3B, and move either Ces or Conforto to CF. Then start selling post-season tickets!

Ceetar Nov 01 2017 01:52 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I want Darvish AND Ohtani!

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 02:05 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I see Ohtani going to the AL. If he really goes both ways (NTTAWWT), then I think he has to DH between starts. You don't want him burning out that arm. Yu is kind of a mystery. I wouldn't put him in that elite class of ace, though he will likely be paid like one this winter. 3.86 ERA is nothing special, 26th in all of baseball. He does have a nice WHIP (1.18), which was 13th overall, and better than Jacob deGrom's. And this was the year he was finally healthy. I don't know. I see a bunch of red flags. But then again, we definitely need a starter.

Vic Sage Nov 01 2017 06:20 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

they're not moving either Cespedes or Conforto to 3b, injury or no, and neither should they. Enough with playing guys totally out of position. The focus should be on 1) a solid mid-rotation starter we can pencil in for 200 ip; 2) another closer to pair with familia; 3) solid bats at least at 2 of following 5 positions: 2b or 3b (with Cabrera at the other spot), Cf or Rf (with Conforto at the other spot) and C, with at least one of the bats being of the contact/ob%/ top-of-the-order variety.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 01 2017 06:31 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Vic Sage wrote: The focus should be on 1) a solid mid-rotation starter we can pencil in for 200 ip; 2) another closer to pair with familia; 3) solid bats at least at 2 of following 5 positions: 2b or 3b (with Cabrera at the other spot), Cf or Rf (with Conforto at the other spot) and C, with at least one of the bats being of the contact/ob%/ top-of-the-order variety. This is pretty much what I've been thinking too. I suspect that they'll let d'Arnaud and Plawecki compete for time behind the plate, but an upgrade, if they can do it, should be on the table. But I would like to see them import an infielder and an outfielder and hopefully they won't both be sluggers who strike out 150 times per season.

Ceetar Nov 01 2017 06:39 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Benjamin Grimm wrote: But I would like to see them import an infielder and an outfielder and hopefully they won't both be sluggers who strike out 150 times per season. I mean, 26 guys struck out 150 times. And that's just volume. Almost 100 guys struck out at what would be a 150k rate.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 06:42 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Vic Sage wrote: they're not moving either Cespedes or Conforto to 3b, injury or no, and neither should they. Enough with playing guys totally out of position. Wait, so my scenario had the Mets spending about $750 million, and that's the part that was unrealistic? Lol. I would say there is a better chance Conforto learns to play an adequate 3B by catching the ball with his teeth and then punting it over to 1B than the Mets signing five top tier free agents in one winter.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 06:49 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The focus should be on 1) a solid mid-rotation starter we can pencil in for 200 ip; 2) another closer to pair with familia; 3) solid bats at least at 2 of following 5 positions: 2b or 3b (with Cabrera at the other spot), Cf or Rf (with Conforto at the other spot) and C, with at least one of the bats being of the contact/ob%/ top-of-the-order variety. This is pretty much what I've been thinking too. I suspect that they'll let d'Arnaud and Plawecki compete for time behind the plate, but an upgrade, if they can do it, should be on the table. But I would like to see them import an infielder and an outfielder and hopefully they won't both be sluggers who strike out 150 times per season. I'm on board with this too. And I think the Mets will look to do just that. Add a starter, add a back end reliever, and add 2 bats. What remains to be seen is the level of talent they bring in. With the amount of money that came off the books, there is no reason the Mets can't shop at the top of the market, especially in the bullpen. Wade Davis will cost about 4 years, $75-80 million. I think they can stomach that. Not sold on Dickey as the additional starter. Maybe a guy like Jason Vargas. The Mets need one top of the order OBP guy. One guy who slugs a bit.

Edgy MD Nov 01 2017 06:57 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

It's tough to sign a reliever who has been closing games when he and his agent know you already have a guy with that assignment. Closing is how they enhance their résumés. If you want to get an active closer to be your other closer, you generally have to trade for him, a la AJ Ramos. That way he has no say in his role, other than to pitch effectively. That could happen, but I think it's more likely that the Mets will be trying to shore up the setter-uppers, rather than the back end.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 01 2017 07:00 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Wade Davis will cost about 4 years, $75-80 million. Really??? I'm not disputing you, just expressing surprise. I guess I don't pay that much attention to salaries. Are relief pitchers really getting in the neighborhood of $20 million per year?

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 07:06 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I think so. Kenley Jansen got 5 years, 80 Million last year. Mark Melancon got 4 years, 62 million. Figure Wade Davis is right there with those guys, has a championship on his resume, there are fewer closers on the maket this year, and "bullpenning" is a real thing now.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 07:07 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: It's tough to sign a reliever who has been closing games when he and his agent know you already have a guy with that assignment. Closing is how they enhance their résumés. If you want to get an active closer to be your other closer, you generally have to trade for him, a la AJ Ramos. That could happen, but I think it's more likely that the Mets will be trying to shore up the setter-uppers, rather than the back end. I think the idea would be to sign Davis to be our closer and move Familia to the 8th. Plus you figure Wade Davis is 32 years old and probably won't be all that marketable at the end of his contract.

Ceetar Nov 01 2017 07:27 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Not really on board on spending big on relievers.

Edgy MD Nov 01 2017 07:38 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Yeah, I tend to think that money works better spread around.

smg58 Nov 01 2017 07:44 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

They need someone to fill either second or third, but they also need to add quality to the rotation and to the pen. My money would go toward pitching first. There's no point in pretending that it is currently the strength of the team. One starter, and two relievers. I do think the pickings at third base in the free agent market are better next offseason than this one, so I would lean in the direction of finding a second baseman now and letting Cabrera play third. Call me back if the price on Moustakas is lower than I think it will be. Frazier? No better offensively than what we already have. His defense is a plus, but Cabrera might improve with more time there. The question then becomes, what's on second? The outfield can be improved on, but I'm OK going with what we have (outside of another righthanded bat) if the rest of the needs are filled well.

Frayed Knot Nov 01 2017 07:53 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Wade Davis at 5 years x $19-20 per is not quite the same as Jansen @ 5 x $16, or Melancon @ 4 x $15.5 (plus Melancon is not the best example to bring up right now on responsible closer signings) Only Chapman @ 5 x $21.2 (plus an opt-out) really compares price-wise to what's being proposed. And while Davis, who came into his own after being moved to the bullpen in 2014, has a better track record than Familia since that time it's not that much better and, at age 32 vs Familia who just turned 28, are you willing to bet $80 million that he's going to continue to be marginally better over the next five seasons? I think Sandy probably feels he addressed shoring up the back end of the bullpen by trading for Ramos and will use the army of guys received from the deadline deals plus an assortment of returnees and an import or two to buttress the middle inning guys. IOW, I don't see them spending a huge chunk of their allowance on a FA closer, especially since that method seems to bust as often as it hits. oe: and as to this thread title: Only TWO choices?

Ceetar Nov 01 2017 08:02 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

oe: and as to this thread title: Only TWO choices? If we phrase it as choices.. -Do we continue to punt defense, or do we double down on having Rosario being maybe the best defensive SS we've had there in a long time by planning to play Lagares more, and bringing in guys for the infield with a little more defense? This might mean moving away from Flores. -Do we trust in some recovery from our pitchers with the new staff and fill it in with some mid-rotation type guys, or do we go all out and sign top-flight pitchers to 'assure' a quality staff?

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 08:46 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 01 2017 09:01 PM

I don't see them spending a huge chunk of their allowance on a FA closer, especially since that method seems to bust as often as it hits. You may be right about them electing not to pay a big chunk of money, but the second part of that statement is not true at all. According spotrac, here are the top paid closers this year: http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/rankings/salary/closer/ 1. Aroldis Chapman $21M 2. Craig Kimbrel $13.25 M 3. Greg Holland $13M 4. Zach Britton $11.4M 5. Kenley Jansen $10.8M 6. Wade Davis $10M 7. Jeurys Familia $7.425M 8. Cody Allen $7.35M 9. Brad Ziegler $7M 10. Mark Melancon $7M Not included on this list, since he is not a closer, is Andrew Miller at $9 million. Of these 11 pitchers, 2 were busts. (Ziegler and Melancon). Ziegler and Melancon ranked 10th and 11th in salary. Another two (Britton and Familia) were hampered by injury. Britton was good when healthy. Familia struggled but regained some form toward the end of the season. The other 7 were the best in the game. Further, the seven highest paid relievers, the seven pitchers making $9 million and above, are arguably the best in baseball. In fact, it seems like there aren't many roles as reliable as closers, when it comes to big money.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 01 2017 08:50 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

That's quite a dropoff in salary between numbers 1 and 2. I might be willing to concede that a closer could be worth $13 million, but $21 million seems like money that could be spent better elsewhere.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 09:00 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

And for the record, AJ Ramos is terrible and makes a shit ton of money. That's why he was available. Ok. Maybe not terrible, but he's not very good. Top 15 in MLB in saves: http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/pitching/ ... sort/saves AJ Ramos comes in at #14. Of the top 10, Alex Colome of Tampa has the highest WHIP (1.20). Ramos has a 1.41 WHIP. It is the highest of the top 15. In fact, only Kelvin Herrera was close (1.31) Everyone else was 1.20 or lower. He was 13th in ERA. He had the 2nd most amount of walks. His 34 walks were second only to Corey Knebel of Milwaukee, who had 40 (but threw 18 more innings). I think you may be right that Sandy has felt he has addressed the bullpen issues, but he absolutely has not.

Frayed Knot Nov 01 2017 09:01 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Except that not all those guys were signed as FA closers --Chapman, Melancon, and Jansen are but all are also just in the first year of their deals. Most of the others are with their first team and even Kimbrel was a pre-FA trade. I'm also thinking more historically than just the guys closing now. Signing a closer as a FA means he already has at least six ML seasons under his belt and the primes of many closers just aren't that long so the team signing him doesn't always get their money's worth even if the team who had him prior to that enjoyed his best seasons. I remember Met fans demanding that we pay Frankie Rodriguez about double what they actually signed him for and even then that amount proved to be too much. Just one example but there are others. I just don't think buying closers on the open market is the way to go in most cases, and particularly not if you already have one (and could even argue they have 1-1/2)

Mex17 Nov 01 2017 09:09 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 01 2017 09:37 PM

Vic Sage wrote: Cf or Rf (with Conforto at the other spot) So are we dismissing out of hand the very possibility of Lagares' defense preventing runs scored against as an asset that might be comparable or perhaps preferable to going out and getting another "big bat" for the outfield?

Mex17 Nov 01 2017 09:16 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

smg58 wrote: I do think the pickings at third base in the free agent market are better next offseason than this one, so I would lean in the direction of finding a second baseman now and letting Cabrera play third. The question then becomes, what's on second? Dee Gordon now, Machado or Donaldson a year from now. Count me in as supporting that.

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 09:22 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Highest contracts to FA closers: https://www.usatoday.com/picture-galler ... /95109688/\ 1. Aroldis Chapman 2. Kenley Jansen 3. Mark Melancon 4. Jonathan Papelbon 5. David Robertson 6. Francisco Cordero 7. Craig Kimbrel 8. BJ Ryan 9. Mariano Rivera (2008-2010) 10. Billy Wagner 11. Mariano Rivera (2001-2004) 12. Andrew Miller 13. Francisco Rodriguez 14. Darren O'Day Of those 14, I would say only Melancon and BJ Ryan (2 good years out of 5) were busts. Some of them, including Melancon, you have to see how they play out, but for the most part, the returns were pretty good.

Mex17 Nov 01 2017 09:28 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I do not forsee them bringing in a big money Wade Davis type. Someone in the vein of Joe Smith though? Yeah, I can see that. Think Familia/Ramos/Blevins/Smith as the veteran guys who are your reliable bread 'n butter going into the season, then you round out the rest of the pen with your organizational youngsters (which may or may not include the likes of Lugo/Gsellman/Montero depending upon how the rotation shakes out).

Centerfield Nov 01 2017 09:57 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Well yes, I don't see them doing it either. But it's winter, and I was referring to what I hoped the Mets would do. If I had to guess, I'd say we get Luke Gregorson, and Lance Lynn, and one guy like Cameron Maybin to play CF. Maybe we bring back Neil Walker. But who knows. The Mets have money to spend. It could be a very exciting winter.

Mex17 Nov 01 2017 10:04 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Gregorson: not a great 2017, but a decent track record. So Smith is the name in my head and Gregorson is the name in yours. I'm sure that there are others, but I think that should be the expectation.

Mex17 Nov 02 2017 11:20 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

If they do decide to go for an outfield power bat this winter, I think that they are going to target Bruce over Martinez, but only if no real market develops for Bruce and they can get him on a team friendly deal later on in the winter (as in January). I do not think that they are going to make a big splash for Martinez as that would probably preclude them financially from a Machado/Donaldson run next year. That said, imagine what the 2019 lineup could be. . . Gordon-2b (I know, I am pushing hard for a trade for Dee Gordon) Rosario-ss Cespedes-lf Conforto-cf Machado-3b Bruce-rf Smith-1b d'Arnaud-c I just have reservations about Conforto in centerfield long term, especially since we have a former Gold Glove winner for centerfield on the roster already, and for significant money.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2017 11:50 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

If you have reservations about Conforto in centerfield long term, why push for the team to acquire another corner outfielder?

Mex17 Nov 02 2017 12:31 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: If you have reservations about Conforto in centerfield long term, why push for the team to acquire another corner outfielder? I'm not. I'm seeing where the conversation is going through and framing a point of view based upon that.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2017 12:37 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I don't get that the conversation (here? elsewhere?) is coalescing around re-signing Jay Bruce. And I certainly don't see anybody else banging the drum for Dee Gordon.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2017 12:39 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Can you imagine the reaction if the outfielder the Mets sign is Bruce, and the infielder is Walker? The fan base would freak. It would look like the Mets were reassembling last year's 92-loss team.

Mex17 Nov 02 2017 12:55 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: I don't get that the conversation (here? elsewhere?) is coalescing around re-signing Jay Bruce. And I certainly don't see anybody else banging the drum for Dee Gordon. In this thread, the talk has been of the need to acquire two bats, one for the infield and one for the outfield, and one slugger and one contact hitter.

Ceetar Nov 02 2017 01:26 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Mex17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I don't get that the conversation (here? elsewhere?) is coalescing around re-signing Jay Bruce. And I certainly don't see anybody else banging the drum for Dee Gordon. In this thread, the talk has been of the need to acquire two bats, one for the infield and one for the outfield, and one slugger and one contact hitter. I'd prefer good players though, and neither of those qualify.

seawolf17 Nov 02 2017 01:41 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Ceetar wrote: Mex17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I don't get that the conversation (here? elsewhere?) is coalescing around re-signing Jay Bruce. And I certainly don't see anybody else banging the drum for Dee Gordon. In this thread, the talk has been of the need to acquire two bats, one for the infield and one for the outfield, and one slugger and one contact hitter. I'd prefer good players though, and neither of those qualify. Bruce was .254/.324/.508 with 36 HR, and Walker was .265/.362/.439 with 14 HR. Neither one is a world-beater, but you could do a LOT worse, especially considering they're both in their early 30s. I would be okay with either or both returning. I have minimal interest in Gordon.

Centerfield Nov 02 2017 02:26 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

seawolf17 wrote: Ceetar wrote: Mex17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I don't get that the conversation (here? elsewhere?) is coalescing around re-signing Jay Bruce. And I certainly don't see anybody else banging the drum for Dee Gordon. In this thread, the talk has been of the need to acquire two bats, one for the infield and one for the outfield, and one slugger and one contact hitter. I'd prefer good players though, and neither of those qualify. Bruce was .254/.324/.508 with 36 HR, and Walker was .265/.362/.439 with 14 HR. Neither one is a world-beater, but you could do a LOT worse, especially considering they're both in their early 30s. I would be okay with either or both returning. I have minimal interest in Gordon. And the thing is, the Mets are pretty unlikely to do much better. JD Martinez? Would be nice, but what are the chances?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2017 02:29 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

What are the chances of JD Martinez? Hard to say. I don't think we can totally rule it out, because we don't know what their plans are or, really, what the budget is. I'd call Martinez a maybe. Possibly a faint maybe, but not a no. At least not yet.

Centerfield Nov 02 2017 06:15 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Is it Scott Boras that makes the grocery store aisle comments about the Mets? I guess we'll find out early if we are shopping in the steaks section or the clearance aisle.

Lefty Specialist Nov 02 2017 06:29 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Is it Scott Boras that makes the grocery store aisle comments about the Mets? I guess we'll find out early if we are shopping in the steaks section or the clearance aisle.

Vic Sage Nov 02 2017 06:40 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 02 2017 06:59 PM

Mex17 wrote: Vic Sage wrote: Cf or Rf (with Conforto at the other spot) So are we dismissing out of hand the very possibility of Lagares' defense preventing runs scored against as an asset that might be comparable or perhaps preferable to going out and getting another "big bat" for the outfield? yes, i'm dismissing it out of hand. Just as i did with Rey Ordonez. In a dead-ball era, you can carry a glove at an important defensive position, like Mark Belanger, because each run scored has a big impact on winning and losing. But now, in an era of run inflation, each run has less impact, so 1-run strategies are not helpful and big bats are necessary to keep up with the current style of play. And the need for a guy to run balls down in the alleys is also less important when the rate of balls in play going out of the park is increasing so much. Lagares is useful as a 4th OFer/defensive replacement/PHer against LHPs, but his bat is too big a drag on the lineup to play every day. He'll be paid like a starter next year, so he's a burden the Mets should get out from under, if at all possible (which i don't think it will be unless they eat some of his contract).

Edgy MD Nov 02 2017 06:51 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I don't think having a Gold Glove-quality centerfielder (assuming that he indeed still is one) is a one-run strategy. I certainly prefer him as a platoon player, but healthy, he has demonstrated he can be a three-win player based almost on his glove alone, and that's not nothing. Whether it's a high-scoring or low-scoring era isn't really the issue. The era is only relevant in that we're in a high-strikeout era, which suggests fewer opportunities for defenders to make a difference.

Centerfield Nov 02 2017 07:31 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Did you see the offensive firepower those World Series teams were churning out? 7-8 hitters with OPS's in the range of .850-900. The Cubs and Yankees were stacked too. We are lightyears away offensively. A lineup that has Lagares, d'Arnaud, Rosario, Smith and the pitcher? Just give up now. Ces and Conforto are nice if healthy, but we drop off pretty precipitously after that.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 02 2017 07:47 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Well, the good news is that we have a lot of pitchers with ERAs over 6.00. The key to 2018 will be getting more innings from them!

Ceetar Nov 02 2017 07:55 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Did you see the offensive firepower those World Series teams were churning out? 7-8 hitters with OPS's in the range of .850-900. The Cubs and Yankees were stacked too. We are lightyears away offensively. A lineup that has Lagares, d'Arnaud, Rosario, Smith and the pitcher? Just give up now. Ces and Conforto are nice if healthy, but we drop off pretty precipitously after that. the Astros were light years better than everyone offensively. The Dodgers had a wRC+ of 104. the Mets were at 100. that means the Dodgers were merely 4% better. The Nats were also at 100, which actually means we're operating from a rather neutral standpoint in terms of our competition.

Lefty Specialist Nov 02 2017 07:58 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Well, the good news is that we have a lot of pitchers with ERAs over 6.00. The key to 2018 will be getting more innings from them! Oy. Hope Mickey Callaway stocked up on Zantac.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2017 08:05 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I don't think the team is light years away offensively. They were seventh in the league in OPS+, despite missing much of their firepower for much of the season. They tied for the lead league in homers. Bruce and Walker and Duda are gone from that group, so replacements will have to come. (Every team, of course, will have the pitcher in the lineup, and the Mets pitchers hit better than most.) It may be that Lageres may not still have it, or that he can't stay healthy, but his productivity in 2013 and 2014 was real. It was real when he was healthy this year also, it just wasn't as obvious because most of his value was tied up in his defense, but the metrics are there. I really want Nimmo to see regular playing time, or incoming guys to be OBP-first guys, to complement the power. I'd be perfectly satisfied with a Nimmo/Lagares platoon between Conforto and Céspedes, assuming everyone is healthy. But that's the rub. And for all I know, Conforto won't be at full strength any time soon. And if that's what the Mets expect, they certainly need to shop accordingly.

Centerfield Nov 02 2017 09:08 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Ceetar wrote: Centerfield wrote: Did you see the offensive firepower those World Series teams were churning out? 7-8 hitters with OPS's in the range of .850-900. The Cubs and Yankees were stacked too. We are lightyears away offensively. A lineup that has Lagares, d'Arnaud, Rosario, Smith and the pitcher? Just give up now. Ces and Conforto are nice if healthy, but we drop off pretty precipitously after that. the Astros were light years better than everyone offensively. The Dodgers had a wRC+ of 104. the Mets were at 100. that means the Dodgers were merely 4% better. The Nats were also at 100, which actually means we're operating from a rather neutral standpoint in terms of our competition. I don't know what this means. I know that Washington scored 819 runs, and the Mets scored 735. So Washington scored 84 more runs than the Mets. This seems like a lot. I also know that a lot of the guys responsible for those 735 runs are gone. So that makes the gap even larger.

Centerfield Nov 02 2017 09:15 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: I don't think the team is light years away offensively. They were seventh in the league in OPS+, despite missing much of their firepower for much of the season. They tied for the lead league in homers. Bruce and Walker and Duda are gone from that group, so replacements will have to come. (Every team, of course, will have the pitcher in the lineup, and the Mets pitchers hit better than most.) It may be that Lageres may not still have it, or that he can't stay healthy, but his productivity in 2013 and 2014 was real. It was real when he was healthy this year also, it just wasn't as obvious because most of his value was tied up in his defense, but the metrics are there. I really want Nimmo to see regular playing time, or incoming guys to be OBP-first guys, to complement the power. I'd be perfectly satisfied with a Nimmo/Lagares platoon between Conforto and Céspedes, assuming everyone is healthy. But that's the rub. And for all I know, Conforto won't be at full strength any time soon. And if that's what the Mets expect, they certainly need to shop accordingly. They were 19th in runs scored, 14th in OPS. So either they were unlucky, or unclutch, or couldn't move runners over or something. But they were not close. I'd like high OBP to complement the power. But they traded away a lot of that power. So now we need that too. If you go with Lagares, you are leaving 2B or C as places to find both OBP and power.

Edgy MD Nov 02 2017 09:25 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I wasn't suggesting going with Lagares, so much as going with Nimmo and Lagares helping out against lefties and coming on for defense.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 02:34 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I'm rooting for Nimmo to be real too. In fact, I like what I see. Good OBP, pretty good looking swing, and I think the power will develop. But I don't think he's a centerfielder, and I don't think he will produce enough to warrant a corner position. So basically the guy is an unknown offensively and defensively. Man. If only we could have had a month and a half of meaningless games where we could have tried him out in CF. Anyway, my point is, you have to get some offense somewhere. The top 8 run scoring teams made the playoffs. The ten playoff teams were in the top 12 offensively. You have to score runs. The Mets were 19th, and much of that production came before the selloff. You have to make up that difference somehow. JD Martinez would do a lot to make up that ground. So would Eric Hosmer. Jay Bruce too, I guess. But none of these fit where we have holes. And I think the Mets will use this excuse to justify not pursuing the top flight talent. Our holes are CF, 3B, 2B and catcher. And frankly, there aren't great options out there. So I have no clue what Sandy Alderson will do. Unlike the pitching, there are no clear answers. If we go with a platoon of Nimmo and Lagares, CF will be a position where realistically, the best we can hope for is mid .700's in OPS. Same for shortstop, first base and catcher. Combine that with our pitcher, and that's more than half our lineup. If Conforto and Ces are the corner outfielders, that leaves 2B and 3B for your offensive upgrades. I don't see who we could get that meets our needs. When you project this lineup against the two teams we were just watching, it's light years away.

Ashie62 Nov 03 2017 02:36 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

A straight Nimmo/Lagares platoon works for me. It's going to take a recovery of the pitching staff to contend in 2018. In that event, we have a cheap effective combo in CF.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 02:50 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

And for the record, I'm not saying that the Mets should just automatically go with Smith at 1B. I just think that this is what they will do. It's easy. It's the Joe Bloggs answer. And creativity is not really Sandy's thing. I would love if the Mets could be bold enough to say, "You know what, Eric Hosmer is exactly what this team needs. ", then go out and get him. (and really, he hits for average, gets on base, hits for power, plays great D, he really is exactly what this team needs) But we won't. We won't even think to do this. Instead, in a year where we are supposed to contend, we will give first base to the fat guy who hit .198. And no, if you sign Eric Hosmer, it doesn't mean you're "giving up" on Smith. He was a top 50 prospect last year. I'm sure he has trade value. And if there are no takers? Put him back at AAA. The kid is 22. It won't kill him to get another season under his belt. Where maybe he can work on his conditioning a bit. He can be dealt at the deadline, or next winter, or be insurance in the event Hosmer gets hurt.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 03:13 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Ashie62 wrote: A straight Nimmo/Lagares platoon works for me. It's going to take a recovery of the pitching staff to contend in 2018. In that event, we have a cheap effective combo in CF. Sure. No one is disputing that the pitching has to be better. But so does the offense. Did you not see the offense we just saw in this post-season? Did you read my post above about the playoff teams all having top offenses? http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/st ... asontype/2 Take a look at this list. Teams ranked by run scoring. Does it strike you that those teams at the top have something in common? Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same games. I'm watching HR's flying out of the park. Leadoff hitters mashing 400 foot bombs. Scores of 13-12 against great pitchers. Guys up and down the lineup posting OPS's in the high 800's. And we think Lagares/Nimmo, d'Arnaud, Rosario, Smith, Cabrera is going to get it done? We would have had no chance. If the Mets had been magically placed in the World Series, we would have gotten smoked. Except for deGrom starts we would have lost 25-0 against these teams. And in the deGrom starts we would have lost those too, but the score would have been closer until the bullpen came in.

41Forever Nov 03 2017 10:29 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: A straight Nimmo/Lagares platoon works for me. It's going to take a recovery of the pitching staff to contend in 2018. In that event, we have a cheap effective combo in CF. Sure. No one is disputing that the pitching has to be better. But so does the offense. Did you not see the offense we just saw in this post-season? Did you read my post above about the playoff teams all having top offenses? http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/st ... asontype/2 Take a look at this list. Teams ranked by run scoring. Does it strike you that those teams at the top have something in common? Sometimes I wonder if we watch the same games. I'm watching HR's flying out of the park. Leadoff hitters mashing 400 foot bombs. Scores of 13-12 against great pitchers. Guys up and down the lineup posting OPS's in the high 800's. And we think Lagares/Nimmo, d'Arnaud, Rosario, Smith, Cabrera is going to get it done? We would have had no chance. If the Mets had been magically placed in the World Series, we would have gotten smoked. Except for deGrom starts we would have lost 25-0 against these teams. And in the deGrom starts we would have lost those too, but the score would have been closer until the bullpen came in. The Mets team we had at the end of the season would have been smoked. The Mets team we expected to have before being decimated by injuries would have fared well, I think.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 12:40 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Sure. If we had Duda and Bruce and Walker and Granderson and Addison Reed. It’s closer. Though to be honest, we probably still lose. But they’re all gone now. How do you make that up?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 03 2017 12:46 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I think it's probably too much to expect for one offseason. For the Mets to go from 92 losses to 92 wins seems like a very steep climb. We'll see what happens. Maybe they'll surprise me. But I expect to go into 2018 with lower expectations than I did in 2017.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 03 2017 12:54 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

There's no way I'm spending a big chunk of a limited budget on a closer. That's what Omar Minaya would do, solve last year's problems next year. How funny is it that two guys the Mets might be keen to pick up this year are Joe Smith and Jason Vargas. They were pissed away years ago in a stupid-ass hunt for relievers that of course was little more than a show of acknowledging that the bullpen sucked the year before.

Lefty Specialist Nov 03 2017 01:00 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Well, the team they have right now would forfeit. They have two starting pitchers and a bunch of question marks. Dom Smith, whether we like it or not, will be the starter and will be given all year to prove himself. Same for Rosario. I expect that Cabrera's option will be picked up and he'll be penciled in at third. They simply have to pick up another outfielder because you can't have a Cespedes/Nimmo/Lagares outfield play every day until Conforto comes back. I like Nimmo, but he's a 4th outfielder. And they need a real second baseman. I like Dee Gordon more than most. He fills a need. He's not perfect but he's better than Floriveracchini, and he'll be available. But this is doodling on the margins. This team needs a blockbuster, shake-em-all-up deal that I don't think Sandy's capable of. With a weak farm system (that wasn't really improved dramatically by all those fire sale trades last year), we're probably looking at another dreary season.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2017 01:24 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Dom Smith will likely be the starter. I'm not banking on that though. Preston Wilson and Carlos Gomez and Scott Kazmir have certainly demonstrated that top prospects may make it though the minors as Mets and still get traded just as they've ripened on the vine. The team may feel like two young comers in the lineup is one too many.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 02:30 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: There's no way I'm spending a big chunk of a limited budget on a closer. That's fair. It's certainly not the only way to improve the team. Where would you spend the money? And are you ok with the budget being limited? John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: That's what Omar Minaya would do, solve last year's problems next year. But isn't that what any GM should do? It's not like those bullpen problems will just go away. The Mets were 29th in bullpen ERA. And then they traded away their best reliever. Familia coming back will help. But Ramos is badly overrated. That alone isn't going to get it done. Plus, I don't know that Minaya was as bad as we thought at the time. His regime has been more successful than Sandy's. And he left behind the cornerstones of our next World Series team. John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: How funny is it that two guys the Mets might be keen to pick up this year are Joe Smith and Jason Vargas. They were pissed away years ago in a stupid-ass hunt for relievers that of course was little more than a show of acknowledging that the bullpen sucked the year before. Stupid Omar! But yeah, trading young pitching is risky. Much easier to just sign relievers.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 02:45 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: Dom Smith will likely be the starter. I'm not banking on that though. Preston Wilson and Carlos Gomez and Scott Kazmir have certainly demonstrated that top prospects may make it though the minors as Mets and still get traded just as they've ripened on the vine. The team may feel like two young comers in the lineup is one too many. Lefty Specialist wrote: But this is doodling on the margins. This team needs a blockbuster, shake-em-all-up deal that I don't think Sandy's capable of. With a weak farm system (that wasn't really improved dramatically by all those fire sale trades last year), we're probably looking at another dreary season. This type of move could really help. Smith has value. And could bring back a productive part. Opening up 1B would allow us to sign Hosmer, or even re-sign Duda. I just think that in order to really contend, the Mets have to be flexible and creative. Passing on the elite players because they don't fit is lazy. We went out and got Piazza even though we had Hundley. Went to the World Series. We went out and got Beltran even though we had Cameron. Went to the NLCS. We went out and got Cespedes even though we had two corner OF's already. Went to the World Series. I think you have to get elite players when they are available.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 03 2017 02:46 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I agree. I hope that they're in on Hosmer.

Ceetar Nov 03 2017 02:49 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Cespedes isn't in the same class, but I get your point. This season that player is probably Darvish and/or Ohtani? J.D. Martinez maybe as a hitter. Lorenzo Cain perhaps, as the only CFer out there with a bat? I like Carlos Santana more than Hosmer or Moustakas. But I dunno.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 02:55 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I'm not big on Moustakas either. But yeah, somebody. If we get Joe Smith, Jason Vargas and Brandon Phillips, we're toast.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 03 2017 03:07 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I know this means next to nothing, but John Harper has an article in the paper today where he predicts where each of his Top Twenty free agents will sign. He has the Mets signing Jay Bruce (for years, $60 million), Eduardo Nunez (four years, $44 million) and Brandon Kintzler (two years, $25 million).

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 03 2017 03:09 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I actually do think the bullpen problems will go away; or at least won't be as ugly as last year, as long the guys stay healthy, because bullpens are inherently unpredictable and the best you can do is get a bunch of good arms and hope 2 or 3 of them step up. Sandy acquired, I think, 11 guys who will be candidates to fill in behind Familia, Ramos and Blevins, not to mention potential returnees like Robles, Smokey, Sewald, none of whom were great but are going to have to be better to hold off whichever of the new guys rises just to have a job next year. Then there's whoever doesn;t make the starting rotation (Wheeler? Montero? Harvey!?!??) and more youngsters coming up like Molina or even Petserson. Not worried about the bullpen. I'd be in favor of perhaps paying for a reliable guy like Joe Smith but not a 15 million guy who will have to slot in beneath Familia. They might not come in that scenario anyway, that's why "dual closers" are usually the result of trades (Ramos) and not FA signings alone. As for where to spend the $$, some on a Joe Smith type; some on a reliable starter to push the lazy guys and serve as depth. I'd sooner trade/sign a #1 pitcher than a #1 bullpener. We also need a RH hitter who can play first or third base and a second baseman who can hit. I don;t care if we get these guys by trade or FA. I'll trade anyone on the team except for deGrom, Syndergaard or Rosario so I want to keep my mind open as to the offense.

41Forever Nov 03 2017 03:19 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I actually do think the bullpen problems will go away; or at least won't be as ugly as last year, as long the guys stay healthy, because bullpens are inherently unpredictable and the best you can do is get a bunch of good arms and hope 2 or 3 of them step up. Sandy acquired, I think, 11 guys who will be candidates to fill in behind Familia, Ramos and Blevins, not to mention potential returnees like Robles, Smokey, Sewald, none of whom were great but are going to have to be better to hold off whichever of the new guys rises just to have a job next year. Then there's whoever doesn;t make the starting rotation (Wheeler? Montero? Harvey!?!??) and more youngsters coming up like Molina or even Petserson. Not worried about the bullpen. I'd be in favor of perhaps paying for a reliable guy like Joe Smith but not a 15 million guy who will have to slot in beneath Familia. They might not come in that scenario anyway, that's why "dual closers" are usually the result of trades (Ramos) and not FA signings alone. As for where to spend the $$, some on a Joe Smith type; some on a reliable starter to push the lazy guys and serve as depth. I'd sooner trade/sign a #1 pitcher than a #1 bullpener. We also need a RH hitter who can play first or third base and a second baseman who can hit. I don;t care if we get these guys by trade or FA. I'll trade anyone on the team except for deGrom, Syndergaard or Rosario so I want to keep my mind open as to the offense. Sewald's a keeper! Our best reliever last season! I'm wondering about the rotation, at least beyond Thor and deGrom. You have to figure that if the Mets are going to swing a big deal, it's going to involved a pitcher because I don't think they have much else to deal if Conforto and Rosario are untouchable. Harvey is probably unmovable until he can prove he is healthy. So you have Matz, Wheeler, Lugo, Gsellman -- I can see them parting with someone in that group as long as there is a dependable starter coming back.

Ceetar Nov 03 2017 03:20 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

well Matz and Lugo are curveball guys and Callaway is a curveball guy so it seems like they'll be given a shot at least.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2017 03:25 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I agree with Bucket's post about the bullpen above. I'd supprot bring in a reputedly reliable vet for stability purposes, but I think getting quality of quantity is the idea. So many of the 2015 deadline deals were selling off AA and A+ arms that might have been the emergency responders this season. That was a talent gap in the system. Now the 2017 selloff largely reversed that pattern and filled in the high minors with a lot of reliev-y resources. Offensively, where I think they failed in planning last year (apart from getting hurt and hurt) is that they had four starting corner outfielders in an outfield that had two corners. That seemed like a misallocation of resources to me*, even as injuries shaved off the redundncy. I like J.D. Martinez a lot, but now that the team is again down to two corner outfielders, spending big on Martinez seems to be again over-reinforcing an area that is a strength. But if the Mets don't think Conforto or Céspedes will be particularly healthy, that is less of a concern. I've spent two seasons arguing that they Mets should target an on-base machine like Votto intead of the hitters whose value is wrapped up in slugging. That's been fruitless, but I'd sure like an infielder with a high OBP. [list]* This was partially the result of a couple of failed bets. When they picked up Bruce's option and a market didn't appear for him, and when Neil Walker accepted arbitration, the team's discretionary budget was largely and accidentally committed to two areas that weren't obvious needs.[/list:u]

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 04:21 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: I've spent two seasons arguing that they Mets should target an on-base machine like Votto intead of the hitters whose value is wrapped up in slugging. That's been fruitless, but I'd sure like an infielder with a high OBP. Didn't you propose a Votto trade with Dominic Smith as the centerpiece? Mets take on the monster salary. I'd be all over that. High OBP infielder who can leadoff and run a bit. That would be nice.

Vic Sage Nov 03 2017 04:33 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 03 2017 04:47 PM

[u:j76agjih]1st choice:[/u:j76agjih] Cain (cf) L.Lynn (Sp) Moustakas (3b) Reed (Rp) Minor* (Rp) [u:j76agjih]2nd choice:[/u:j76agjih] C.Gomez (cf) Cobb (Sp) Frazier (3b) Morrow (Rp) McGee* (lrp) [u:j76agjih]barely acceptable:[/u:j76agjih] Maybin (Cf) Hunter (Sp) Nunez (3b) Nicasio (Rp) Watson* (lrp) [u:j76agjih]if we're lucky:[/u:j76agjih] Dyson (cf) Vargas(Sp) Reynolds (3b) Neshek (rp) Miley*(lRp) [u:j76agjih]likely:[/u:j76agjih] nobody nobody nobody nobody nobody*

Edgy MD Nov 03 2017 04:38 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Didn't you propose a Votto trade with Dominic Smith as the centerpiece? Mets take on the monster salary. I'd be all over that. Yeah, it's just not as attractive as it was two years ago. Looks like last year's proposal was Duda, Smith, Molina, and Goeddel. By the way, that's a great post LWFS ended that thread with.

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 07:10 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Didn't you propose a Votto trade with Dominic Smith as the centerpiece? Mets take on the monster salary. I'd be all over that. Yeah, it's just not as attractive as it was two years ago. Looks like last year's proposal was Duda, Smith, Molina, and Goeddel. By the way, that's a great post LWFS ended that thread with. So what's your winter 2018 proposal?

Lefty Specialist Nov 03 2017 07:36 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Votto, ay caramba. He'll decline and that beached whale of a contract would be unmovable. I mean, he's getting $25 million when he's 40, six years from now. Hosmer won't be cheap either. Someone's going to throw way too much money at him. If you're going to overpay, get me Stanton. Of course it'll never happen for a million (or 295 million) reasons, but that's a game-changer.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2017 07:51 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

He's been predicted to decline through the last two years I've been his groupie, and he's only gotten better. And his skills are an old guy's skills, so I don't see them declining as much as others do as he becomes an actual old guy. Beyond that, $25 million six years from now — after Trout and Harper and Kershaw have made serious bank — won't be as much as it was six years ago. Talent costs munny, and he's got talent. The contract is not backloaded, and that's good. So what's your winter 2018 proposal? Wild-assed or realistic? I dunno. I'm philosophically against trading, but on the other hand, I think fans get caught up in doing their imaginary shopping to restrict themselves only to the free agent list, when there is a world of deals to be had, and so folks get overly fixated on a Shin-Soo Choo here or a Mike Moutakas there. I'm very confused as to who can reasonably be expected to be 100% next season. But if Conforto is expected to be healthy than I regard highly an outfield of him and Céspedes on the corners and Nimmo and Lagares up the middle (if Céspedes is healthy too). The fifth outfielder would probably be someone like Aoki or maybe Hairston. Righthanded or a switchie, available to play center in a pinch. Best off the bench but with starting experience. Then the team can shop for an infielder of great on-basiness (David Freese?) and an effective pitcher with high-ish innings totals and hopefully a healthy arm and mindset (Darvish?). If they want to go after a big fish, that would be great, but I'd certainly want it to be a guy whose on-base tool is a significant asset. Votto? Trout? Altuve? I think they probably have the leverage to make a blockbuster acquisition, if the fit is right. I wouldn't want another corner outfielder. Altuve would be the best fit in the world for this team, but nothing less than the store would move him now. So, I'm not sure. The Mets led the National League in home runs but were eleventh in OBP. Shopping for offense begins there. Syndergaard, Evans, and Flexie for Altuve. How's that for wild-assed?

Centerfield Nov 03 2017 09:10 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Oh. I meant what do you think it would take to get Votto. He had another stupid good year, but that's another year of his prime ticked off the ledger, and a year closer to his inevitable decline. Does Smith, Gsellman, Peterson get it done?

Mex17 Nov 03 2017 09:50 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Oh. I meant what do you think it would take to get Votto. He had another stupid good year, but that's another year of his prime ticked off the ledger, and a year closer to his inevitable decline. Does Smith, Gsellman, Peterson get it done? I don't want to pay for the downside of somebody's else's franchise player.

Edgy MD Nov 03 2017 11:37 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Yeah, but the same logic has kept any number of teams from getting the last two ineffable seasons. There be more in there. There's reason to believe there are. I'd sure rather have Joey Votto at 35 than Dee Gordon at 30. He just had 7.5 bWAR at 33. I can't imagine more than a handful of firstbaseman have ever done that without drugs. Gehrig and Foxx, probably, but not many others. (Not that I have much of a clue whether Votto is using drugz.)

Ashie62 Nov 04 2017 02:27 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: He's been predicted to decline through the last two years I've been his groupie, and he's only gotten better. And his skills are an old guy's skills, so I don't see them declining as much as others do as he becomes an actual old guy. Beyond that, $25 million six years from now — after Trout and Harper and Kershaw have made serious bank — won't be as much as it was six years ago. Talent costs munny, and he's got talent. The contract is not backloaded, and that's good. So what's your winter 2018 proposal? Wild-assed or realistic? I dunno. I'm philosophically against trading, but on the other hand, I think fans get caught up in doing their imaginary shopping to restrict themselves only to the free agent list, when there is a world of deals to be had, and so folks get overly fixated on a Shin-Soo Choo here or a Mike Moutakas there. I'm very confused as to who can reasonably be expected to be 100% next season. But if Conforto is expected to be healthy than I regard highly an outfield of him and Céspedes on the corners and Nimmo and Lagares up the middle (if Céspedes is healthy too). The fifth outfielder would probably be someone like Aoki or maybe Hairston. Righthanded or a switchie, available to play center in a pinch. Best off the bench but with starting experience. Then the team can shop for an infielder of great on-basiness (David Freese?) and an effective pitcher with high-ish innings totals and hopefully a healthy arm and mindset (Darvish?). If they want to go after a big fish, that would be great, but I'd certainly want it to be a guy whose on-base tool is a significant asset. Votto? Trout? Altuve? I think they probably have the leverage to make a blockbuster acquisition, if the fit is right. I wouldn't want another corner outfielder. Altuve would be the best fit in the world for this team, but nothing less than the store would move him now. So, I'm not sure. The Mets led the National League in home runs but were eleventh in OBP. Shopping for offense begins there. Syndergaard, Evans, and Flexie for Altuve. How's that for wild-assed? I do appreciate your interest in Altuve. You do realize you would have to add a jar of vaseline and a can of crisco for starters to seal this one.

Edgy MD Nov 04 2017 03:20 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

A handgun might also help. But that proposal was both Wild and Assed.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 04 2017 02:58 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Vic Sage wrote: they're not moving either Cespedes or Conforto to 3b, injury or no, and neither should they. Enough with playing guys totally out of position. Wait, so my scenario had the Mets spending about $750 million, and that's the part that was unrealistic? Lol. I would say there is a better chance Conforto learns to play an adequate 3B by catching the ball with his teeth and then punting it over to 1B than the Mets signing five top tier free agents in one winter. Five top tier Mets free agent signings in one winter? I don't think the Mets signed five top tier in their prime free agents in their entire franchise history. I'm struggling to think of anyone other than Beltran and Bonilla. OE -- Cespedes. That's three.

Centerfield Nov 04 2017 04:38 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

It depends if you count re-signing your own guys. Cespedes was signed twice. Piazza once. I think Gooden? But if you are talking about signing a top tier free agent from another team, no, they never do this. Beltran. Bonilla. That's really it. And this speaks to why they don't win. A big market team spends aggressively. They sign top tier free agents and field competitive teams consistently. That's why the Yankees and Dodgers and Red Sox and Giants are in the playoffs consistently. Small market teams can't do this. So they rebuild. They scout aggressively, and after years of a rebuild, they have their chips fall in place and win. Astros. Cleveland. Kansas City. The Mets follow neither of these plans. They feign contention year after year, never going the distance to go all in, but never committing to an all out rebuild. So you get years of mediocrity. 2018 will be another of those seasons. They have chips in place to be competitive. They should spend the money to build a championship level team. If they don't, they should rebuild. Instead, they will spend just enough money to be competitive if everything breaks the right way. You can talk about injuries and all that crap. The fact is, the Mets have won 90 games exactly once in the last ten years. In 2015, they won 90 exactly. Every other year they win in the 70's or 80's. That is no accident. They are not trying to build a championship team. They are not trying to sustain excellence. That's why this team has a history of losing.

41Forever Nov 05 2017 02:07 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Sadly, I think Vince Coleman was of the top players on the market the year he was signed.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 05 2017 02:23 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

There was also Pedro Martinez. Does he count?

MFS62 Nov 05 2017 02:27 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

41Forever wrote: Sadly, I think Vince Coleman was of the top players on the market the year he was signed. Arguably, so was Jason Bay. He was 31, and the year before had a .267-36-119 year in Boston. Later

Ashie62 Nov 05 2017 10:51 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Krod and Oliver Perez?

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 01:41 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Yeah, I’d be inclined to say none of those qualify. Pedro was a big name but clearly in decline. Jason Bay is the quintessential Mets free agent. Not elite, and signed past his prime. Was too young to remember Vince Coleman, but I doubt he was in the MVP discussion before signing.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 06 2017 02:04 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Only the Al Harazin Mets could've though that Coleman was an elite player. He never was. As a rookie base-stealing sensation, Coleman sucked all the attention away from the rest of his teammates --- a real shame because Coleman was probably the worst of the '85 Cards starting eight.

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 02:09 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Funny. I just looked up Coleman's stats too. .665 OPS as a Cardinal before signing with the Mets. Yeah, not elite.

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 02:10 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

But on that note...Hey! Let's get Dee Gordon!

Edgy MD Nov 06 2017 02:10 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I dunno (about the '85 Cardinals). Terry Pendleton was purty bad in 1985, and really never was particularly good through most of his early career until he suddenly became an MVP upon joining the Braves. Tom Ñieto was pretty weak for them too, but at least he caught. Although he and Darrell Porter shared the catching. Darrell had the stick and Ñieto the glove. They were a team with half a lineup most nights.

41Forever Nov 06 2017 02:22 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/06/sports/baseball-coleman-signed-by-mets-for-nearly-12-million.html The Coleman signing was a big deal. He was a good player -- until he got to New York. ROY, two years in top 15 of MVP voting, two-time All-Star, leading the league in steals each year he was in the majors. First Mets free agent signing in a decade. But he was infamous for getting hurt by "log-rolling" on the tarp rolls. Busch had an automatic system, and Coleman was standing on top as it was rolling out -- and fell off and got hurt. It ran over his leg. This was during the playoffs, and he missed the 1985 World Series. Stupid. [url]http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/the-day-the-tarp-ate-vince-coleman/article_5e47b555-a52b-5106-9d17-58b5303ca0f5.html He should have stayed in St. Louis. Instead he was asked replace Darryl Strawberry. Horrible signing in hindsight.

Frayed Knot Nov 06 2017 03:23 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

The problem with the Coleman signing is that it was done largely as a pr move in reaction to losing Strawberry - 'Hey, let's replace a name with a name' to take away any bad pub. Well, as usual, when you do something for pr reasons you usually wind up with worse pr than you would have had you done nothing. FWIW, Jim Duquette for MLB.com looks at the 'Top-25' FAs this winter and has the Mets "interested in" 12* of them. Now whether that's based on any kind of inside information or just speculation that the Mets may be looking at these positions and therefore we'll call them interested in anyone who fill it. I'm guessing it's the latter. * Eric Hosmer, Mike Moustakas, Jay Bruce, Lorenzo Cain, Yonder Alonso, Logan Morrison, Carlos Santana, Addison Reed, Brandon Morrow, Anthony Swarzak, Eduardo Nunez, Todd Frazier,

Mex17 Nov 06 2017 11:18 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Alonso and Morrison both seem to have turned on the power switch just as they hit their walk years. That could be a red flag since they never had those types of slugging numbers previously.

Mex17 Nov 06 2017 12:08 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

How about this? -Big time closer money on Reed or Wade Davis. -Moderate 3rd/4th starter money on either Alex Cobb, Jason Vargas, Andrew Cashner, Jhoulys Chacin, or, yeah I'm saying it, C.C. Sabathia (he might be miffed at the Yankees for them firing Girardi). -High end bench money on Howie Kendrick. See what you have in Smith/Flores/Rivera/Lagares/Nimmo and save some bullets for the big bats that are hitting the market a year from now. The downside to this plan is, when you finally get the big bats, the big bullpen goes away when Familia and Ramos walk. But you will not have to worry about locking down a closer when you are also shopping for the bats. Looking for new setup men for Reed or Davis would be more manageable.

MFS62 Nov 06 2017 02:07 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Yeah, I’d be inclined to say none of those qualify. Pedro was a big name but clearly in decline. Jason Bay is the quintessential Mets free agent. Not elite, and signed past his prime. The question was not whether or not the player signed was elite, it was whether the Mets signed one of the top players available that year. Remember? But if you are talking about signing a top tier free agent from another team, no, they never do this. Beltran. Bonilla. That's really it. And Bay certainly was one of the top two outfielders available that year, and his prior year wasn't chopped liver. He was coming off a year when he won a Silver Slugger award, finished 7th in the MVP voting and was on the All Star team. That's top tier, isn't it? The fact that he didn't work out as we would have liked is moot. Back to this year. Later

Edgy MD Nov 06 2017 02:39 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Mex17 wrote: How about this? -Big time closer money on Reed or Wade Davis. -Moderate 3rd/4th starter money on either Alex Cobb, Jason Vargas, Andrew Cashner, Jhoulys Chacin, or, yeah I'm saying it, C.C. Sabathia (he might be miffed at the Yankees for them firing Girardi). -High end bench money on Howie Kendrick. No, yes, no? They need at least one outfielder at some level. And my yes is tempered by the idea that C.C. Sabathia is going to sign with the Mets out os solidarity with Joe Girardi. He's going to sign with the Mets if they offer $100 more than another team. Also, I'm kind of looking for a better class of starter, which might be more workable in that I'm looking for a lesser class of reliever.

Ceetar Nov 06 2017 02:44 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

just about every 'big time' free agent is signed past his prime. That's pretty much part of the deal. And to say the Mets don't do it is a huge square peg into your round narrative hole. It's being willfully ignorant of acquiring guys, even if not by being the highest bidder in an offseason negotiation, like Piazza, Alomar, Santana.. And it also ascribes too much of the credit for making the postseason by the 'big spenders' on these guys. The Angels acquired one of the best hitters in baseball and then developed the next one to play on the same team and suck.

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 03:05 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Ok. I should clarify. When I mentioned the "five elite" in my original post, it was more tongue in cheek. I don't really consider Lorenzo Cain an elite free agent. The question that was raised (or at least, the one that I answered) was, do the Mets sign truly elite level free agents? I consider elite free agents to be superstars, signed during their prime. And I get that every free agent has some years behind them. But there is a difference between signing a superstar to his first contract in his mid to late 20's, and Pedro Martinez, who is in his mid thirties, looking for his second big money deal. And I don't think we should count "the best guy available that year". In some cases, that's Shin Soo Choo, and not a superstar. The Mets do re-sign their own. Piazza. David Wright. I think they re-signed Gooden. But they really do not bring in another team's superstar on a big money deal. Beltran. Bobby Bonilla. I think that's it.

Ceetar Nov 06 2017 03:34 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: But they really do not bring in another team's superstar on a big money deal. Beltran. Bobby Bonilla. I think that's it. again, this obfuscates the Santana trade and sign. The Mets, having been competitive to the last day, missing because of pitching, spend big money and big prospects on 200+ IP of HOF quality pitching. Literally found a way to acquire the #1 or #2 pitcher in all of baseball.

Lefty Specialist Nov 06 2017 03:39 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Billy Wagner was a pretty big get at the time. And in 2002 they went out and got Moe Vaughn, Jeromy Burnitz and Roberto Alomar. It all crashed and burned horribly (Oh the humanity!), but they did make the effort.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 06 2017 03:59 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I'm talking elite in their prime free agents. It doesn't matter who they last played for before the Mets signed them so long as they were in their prime elite free agents. This would include Cespedes, who entered the free agent market after the 2015 season having last played for the Mets, but not Santana or Piazza, who weren't free agents when they signed with the Mets. Pedro, like CF said, was past his prime even though his first Mets season was sublime. The Mets signed Pedro for his 33-37 age seasons. Coleman was an extremely overrated outfielder who did in fact have a few good seasons before signing with the Mets. That didn't make him an elite top tier in his prime free agent when he signed with the Mets. Edgy makes some fair points that Coleman wasn't the worst everyday position player on the '85 Cards, but rather the 6th best, or 2nd worst from the bottom. Picky, picky. That makes Coleman the 6th out of 8 regulars. And, if as Edgy says, the '85 Cards were playing with half a lineup, then what does that say about the 6th best or 2nd worst from the bottom position player? Mo Vaughn was in his mid-30s, 100 pounds overweight, and hadn't played a MLB game in a year and a half when the Mets signed the over the hill free agent first baseman. That's hardly elite top tier free agent territory. It's funny that the Mets needed a first baseman that off-season, because coincidentally, there actually was a top tier elite free agent who played first base that same off-season. That would be Jason Giambi, the toppingest free agent of that market, coming off, if I remember correctly, an MVP season. He signed with the Yankees, who when it comes to signing top tier free agents, eat the Mets lunch like the Globetrotters eat the Washington Generals lunch. That's the Mets and Yankees in a nutshell. They get the most sought after most desirable free agent available and the Mets get Fatty Arbuckle in baseball polyester. This reminds me of one of the presentations I attended at the Hofstra 2012 Mets 50th. The topic was the economics of the Mets and Yankees (again, if I'm remembering correctly) and the presenter noted that one of the tremendous advantages the Yankees have over the Mets is in the quality of the Yankees free agent signings. One way he measured this was to compare the all-star appearances of the two teams free agent signees. As you would imagine, it wasn't even close. Beltran, Bonilla and Cespedes. In 40 years of free agent history. From a team that calls New York City its' home. Another fucking embarrassment.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 06 2017 04:04 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I'm not embarrassed about that. I'm occassionally embarrassed about the guys we get but I could give a rat's ass about how we get them

Edgy MD Nov 06 2017 04:10 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

As noted, almost all free agents can be described as past their prime. Perhaps once every three years does the one guy at the top of the market (this seems to be the limit) hit free agency with his best seasons as likely to be ahead of him as behind him. I mean, folks can define this however they like, but unless we have a workable and agreed-upon definition of words like "elite" and "prime," none of it gets anywhere. Who qualifies this off-season? J.D. Martinez? Shohei Otani?

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 04:26 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Yeah, it's a difficult argument because of the fluid nature of those terms. I know. It's like the Supreme Court on porn when they say "I know it when I see it". I'm sure there's some way to quantify it, but I feel like we all kinda know who the superstars are. And it should definitely be their first big money contract. Not mid 30's free agency where they are looking for their second payday. And I get that the Mets have made trades to acquire players, and have developed stars, etc. But basically, why does a big market team deprive themselves of the easiest way to get talent? Winning a World Series is hard. You need elite players to be the best. Duh. There are three ways to get elite players: 1. Develop them 2. Trade for them 3. Sign them via free agency If you are a small market team, you can only do 1 and 2. But why does a team that plays in NY limit themselves to 1 and 2? That's the embarrassment. A big market team that does not take advantage of its built-in advantage.

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 04:50 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

And look, any one fan doesn't need to care how a team gets their players. That's anyone's prerogative. But it is absolutely proper for a fan, should they choose, to ask the Mets to answer for this. Because they are in no position to justify this behavior. For example, there are three ways to get on base. Hit, walk, reach on error. If you go to Ichiro in his prime and say, "Hey Ichiro, why don't you walk more?" Ichiro can say "Hey bitch, I hit .350 and this is my MVP trophy. Walk this dickhead." And you have nothing to say. But if you say hey Rey Ordonez, you struggle to reach a 600 OPS, why don't you try walking, Rey has nothing to say. If you go to the Mets and say, hey it's nice you've developed a nice core, and it's great that you are making trades and all, but why don't you try signing a top flight free agent like the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Dbacks, etc. They can't tell you they don't need to. A team that historically loses has no business not trying everything at its disposal. Seriously. In the last ten years, three winning seasons, and the highest win total is 90. DO SOMETHING!!!

Frayed Knot Nov 06 2017 05:18 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Lefty Specialist wrote: And in 2002 they went out and got Moe Vaughn, ... It all crashed and burned horribly Should have gone for Curly Vaughn instead. Or even Shemp.

41Forever Nov 06 2017 06:39 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Would be an interesting analysis to look at the top free agent contract signed each off-season and look at how they panned out. The MFYs, for all their buying power, they signed a lot of bad contracts. They just have the ability to eat them better than most teams. I'm not sure the Mets are necessarily missing out by not hooking the biggest fish each year.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 06 2017 06:44 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Two first place finishes since 1988. In a mostly five team division. In New York City. Not missing out? Really?

batmagadanleadoff Nov 06 2017 07:08 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Two first place finishes since 1988. In a mostly five team division. In New York City. Not missing out? Really? All this during an era in baseball history where the correlation between payroll and wins was never stronger. And eating the back end of big bad contracts: that's what big market teams do. That's the luxury of being a big market team. It's a calculated outcome, not luck gone bad.

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 07:18 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

41Forever wrote: Would be an interesting analysis to look at the top free agent contract signed each off-season and look at how they panned out. The MFYs, for all their buying power, they signed a lot of bad contracts. They just have the ability to eat them better than most teams. I'm not sure the Mets are necessarily missing out by not hooking the biggest fish each year. Yeah, the Yankees had a ton of bad contracts this year. But they also got production from expensive guys like Tanaka, Chapman, and Sabathia. They went to the ALCS. Between Gonzalez, and Kazmir and Ryu, the Dodgers probably had the most in shit contracts this year. They went to Game 7 of the WS. The Red Sox are paying for Pablo Sandoval, the Cubs have Jason Heyward, the Nats paid $22 million Jayson Werth. I don't think signing a bad contract is all that fatal.

Ceetar Nov 06 2017 07:46 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Two first place finishes since 1988. In a mostly five team division. In New York City. Not missing out? Really? I don't even know how to apply what the Mets "were" in 1988 to today. but since 2005 they've had 6 winning seasons and 3 playoff berths (and 2 near misses) go back to 1997 and they've had 11 winning seasons and 5 playoff berths. They're more likely to be winners than losers. you cherry picked 1988. go back to 84 and it's 18 winning seasons and 7 berths and still winning more than losing. Their payroll was up there pretty much entirely before the recession/Madoff/Stadium trio. You're also setting the bar for 'big free agent' rather high. What, they haven't signed any 10 year deals so they're cheap? There's a rare confluence of events in which a top 10 guy becomes available, in a Mets need, and is even remotely worth it. Should they throw 40/400 at Harper next year?

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 09:17 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Since the 80's glory days, the Mets have only won in three different eras. The late 90's Piazza years, the Omar years, and our current team. During the Piazza years, the Mets maintained a top 10 payroll. Two post-season appearances, one World Series. 97 wins in '99, 94 in '00. In 2006, the Mets had a top 5 payroll. Again, 97 wins. Then Madoff. Once they slashed payroll, they went into a stretch where they were not competitive. In 2015 and 2016, the Mets came back to winning, and unlike before, did not have a top 10 payroll to back it up. But how good were they? In 2015, they were fortunate to win a very weak NL East. Their 90 wins would not have been enough to win in any other year since 2007. In 2016, they won the Wild Card with 87 wins.

Centerfield Nov 06 2017 09:25 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Ceetar wrote: You're also setting the bar for 'big free agent' rather high. What, they haven't signed any 10 year deals so they're cheap? There's a rare confluence of events in which a top 10 guy becomes available, in a Mets need, and is even remotely worth it. Should they throw 40/400 at Harper next year? Yes, it is a high, and somewhat arbitrary bar, but it's one that the other big market teams hit. I'm saying it's a move that the Mets don't have, at least not since Beltran, and they suffer as a result.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 06 2017 09:34 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

But maybe not suffering as much as they might be had they taken the very same argument from you 2 years ago and gone and signed Jason Heyward. I mean, its way more nuanced than this.

Ceetar Nov 06 2017 09:35 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

but you're including Cespedes on this list of free agents but the Mets aren't participating. you're confusing me. And they're paying Wright too, who definitely qualifies as one of those guys in stature at least. There is also only 1-2 guys this season that even come close to that, and it's Darvish and Otani. Arrieta maybe? But you can always make cases against signing these big free agents at this point, and as much as the Mets should get Darvish I could certainly understand an argument against it. The Mets are in a weird spot this offseason, where they maybe have guys at positions but maybe don't, and it's hard to know which position to sign someone to and move around and which guys to trust to the job. Rosario, Smith, Conforto? d'Arnaud/Plawecki? even Wright has the potential to play in 2018 and while you don't let him stop you from trading for Arenado, you do have to consider where you play him if he can play at any point. I get why Gordon appears interesting because second is probably the most 'open' position. But Gordon sucks.

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 02:25 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: But maybe not suffering as much as they might be had they taken the very same argument from you 2 years ago and gone and signed Jason Heyward. I mean, its way more nuanced than this. The team that signed Jason Heyward has won a World Championship and played in three straight NLCS. We should all suffer so much. Because in addition to Heyward, they signed Jon Lester, and Dexter Fowler, and John Lackey, and Ben Zobrist. They ponied up and brought in a dominant closer. All of these guys pitched in along with a young core to create a champion and consistent contender. Top ten payroll. Big market team.

Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 02:37 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Well, since 1988, if that's really where we're measuring from, the Mets have typically had a top-ten payroll. I know that's cold comfort.

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 03:30 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: Well, since 1988, if that's really where we're measuring from, the Mets have typically had a top-ten payroll. I know that's cold comfort. Not at all! It shows that they can do it. Another $20 million or so lands them comfortably in the top 10. And $60 million came off the books this year. Even with arbitration raises, that could allow us to get two of Darvish, Wade Davis, JD Martinez, or Hosmer. And you still might have enough leftover to get your Lorenzo Cain.

Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 04:30 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

According to baseball-reference, they not only can do it, but they have done it (been among the top 10 payrolls) each of the last two seasons.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 07 2017 07:12 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I mean, you guys are yelling about the wrong lack of spending. You know what the real common thread is between the Dodgers and Cubs and Yankees? They're spending a crap-ton and loading their talent stock... with international players. We're spending there, but they're SPENDING there, sanctions be fanned. (Also, in player development, period.)

Mex17 Nov 07 2017 11:26 AM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: They need at least one outfielder at some level. And my yes is tempered by the idea that C.C. Sabathia is going to sign with the Mets out os solidarity with Joe Girardi. He's going to sign with the Mets if they offer $100 more than another team. I meant the Sabathia thing more in the sense that he might not automatically go back to the Yankees by rote moreso than saying that he is specifically going to sign with the Mets out of spite, so I am putting him on my list for that reason. Aoki, Granderson, Austin Jackson, Daniel Nava, and Ben Revere are outfielders at some level, they can get one of them. I buried this idea in a longer post a few days ago, but at some point (and this point is now), they need to determine something with regard to Lagares because that $9 million guaranteed payday in 2019 is coming whether you like it or not. They have to see of he can play regularly for them or, alternatively, they need to create a trade market for him. Both of those require that he plays in 2018. So, say Harper and Metsblog are both right and the have about $40 million to spend. . . -$15 million for a closer -$12 million for a starting pitcher -$13 million to be split between an outfielder from the above list and a veteran backup infielder such as Reyes, Kendrick, or Yunel Escobar. You have improved the 2018 team and you are still set up for the 2019 Hot Stove where there is potential for bigger splashes.

Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 01:04 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I'm still saying no on the closer. That money is better funnelled toward the Darvish fund.

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 02:52 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: According to baseball-reference, they not only can do it, but they have done it (been among the top 10 payrolls) each of the last two seasons. All of the sites I've seen say otherwise. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/here ... -for-2017/ http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2017/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown ... b59d185a78 http://www.stevetheump.com/Payrolls.htm

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 02:53 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Edgy MD wrote: I'm still saying no on the closer. That money is better funnelled toward the Darvish fund. I'd be ok with this, especially since signing Darvish would allow you to move Gsellman, or Lugo, or Wheeler to the pen, where he might turn into Wade Davis. I just think it's more likely that the Mets go 4 years for Davis, than 6-7 for Darvish.

Ceetar Nov 07 2017 03:08 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Centerfield wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I'm still saying no on the closer. That money is better funnelled toward the Darvish fund. I'd be ok with this, especially since signing Darvish would allow you to move Gsellman, or Lugo, or Wheeler to the pen, where he might turn into Wade Davis. I just think it's more likely that the Mets go 4 years for Davis, than 6-7 for Darvish. I hope not. Even if Darvish was garbage for the last 3 of those 6 years, he'd still likely provide more value than Davis even if goes back to being amazing and his BB% stops it's climb.

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 03:49 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Yeah, at the end of the day, I think the Mets need front-line talent. If it's at starting pitcher, you'll get no arguments from me. For all the bullpenning going on, the team with the weakest bullpen just won the World Series. So there's that.

Vic Sage Nov 07 2017 03:54 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Mex17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: They need at least one outfielder at some level. And my yes is tempered by the idea that C.C. Sabathia is going to sign with the Mets out os solidarity with Joe Girardi. He's going to sign with the Mets if they offer $100 more than another team. I meant the Sabathia thing more in the sense that he might not automatically go back to the Yankees by rote moreso than saying that he is specifically going to sign with the Mets out of spite, so I am putting him on my list for that reason. Aoki, Granderson, Austin Jackson, Daniel Nava, and Ben Revere are outfielders at some level, they can get one of them. I buried this idea in a longer post a few days ago, but at some point (and this point is now), they need to determine something with regard to Lagares because that $9 million guaranteed payday in 2019 is coming whether you like it or not. They have to see of he can play regularly for them or, alternatively, they need to create a trade market for him. Both of those require that he plays in 2018. So, say Harper and Metsblog are both right and the have about $40 million to spend. . . -$15 million for a closer -$12 million for a starting pitcher -$13 million to be split between an outfielder from the above list and a veteran backup infielder such as Reyes, Kendrick, or Yunel Escobar. You have improved the 2018 team and you are still set up for the 2019 Hot Stove where there is potential for bigger splashes. I disagree with just about everything you wrote. >"they need to determine something with regard to Lagares because that $9 million guaranteed payday in 2019 is coming whether you like it or not. They have to see of he can play regularly for them or, alternatively, they need to create a trade market for him." They've been giving Lagares every opportunity to show he's an everyday player, ever since signing him to that stupid deal, and all he's shown is that (a) he still can't hit righties, and (b) he can't stay healthy. At best, Lagares has proven that he's a grossly overpaid platoon player and late-inning defensive replacement. There's nothing more to learn about him. It's not like he's some still-developing kid; he'll be 29 before next season starts. He is exactly what we've seen. And that's not a starting player in this era of run inflation. Everybody in a lineup now has to carry a bat; nobody can be carried solely for defense. >"-$15 million for a closer" spending big money for another closer is an inefficient allocation of resources. Bullpens are generally grown, not bought, and closers are notoriously inconsistent. I'd rather we spent half of this on a reliable set up guy, like Reed. > "-$12 million for a starting pitcher" I don't think we can get a solid SP for that, but maybe we can get a #5 guy. >$13 million to be split between an outfielder from the above list and a veteran backup infielder such as Reyes, Kendrick, or Yunel Escobar." Between Cabrera and Flores, we have quite enough backup infielders. What we don't have are starters. Assuming one of them starts at either 2b or 3b, we need a starter at the other position. And the notion that you can get one AND a starting caliber CF is questionable. I'm willing to live with a Lagares/Nimmo platoon for next year, but another OFer is necessary, and that doesn't include any of the awful players you listed. At the least, we're going to need 1 starter and 1 backup at the CF and 2b/3b positions and that's going to cost way more than $13m.

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 08:57 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I'd like for the media to ask the question, why do the Mets only have $40 million to spend?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 07 2017 08:59 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

I'd like to think that that's not even true, but I realize that it might be.

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 09:35 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Again, the only source of all of this "reducing payroll" seems to be that offhand comment made by Sandy in September, where he was typically non-committal. Then they cite to each subsequent articles as "multiple reports". So lazy. So let me rephrase, first, find out if that's true. And if that's true, then find out why that's the case. Madoff was in 2008! Nine years ago!

Ceetar Nov 07 2017 09:58 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Sandy will never be clear about that, no matter what the answer is, and it's certainly not something you want out there anyway, as it may tip your hand in negotiations. You'll get something along the lines of 'depends on what the going rate is for the players we feel are the best fit' and 'we have to look at not just this year, but the next few years too, when it comes to building and budgeting"

Centerfield Nov 07 2017 10:29 PM Re: Two choices the Mets need to make this winter

Right. So I'm not sure why all the beat writers can be so sure the budget is going down. Sandy says stuff like this every year, and the payroll has gone up every year. So hopefully that can happen again.