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Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Steve Garvey

1 votes

Tommy John

0 votes

Don Mattingly

2 votes

Marvin Miller

18 votes

Jack Morris

3 votes

Dale Murphy

6 votes

Dave Parker

3 votes

Ted Simmons

9 votes

Luis Tiant

2 votes

Alan Trammell

15 votes

Valadius Nov 06 2017 07:36 PM

The ballot for the "Modern Era" (defined as 1970-1987) of what was formerly known as the Veterans Committee has been released. Voting will take place December 10. The candidates are: Steve Garvey Tommy John Don Mattingly Marvin Miller Jack Morris Dale Murphy Dave Parker Ted Simmons Luis Tiant Alan Trammell Who do you think is worthy?

Benjamin Grimm Nov 06 2017 07:38 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Keith Hernandez

Vic Sage Nov 06 2017 07:53 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

according to any measure, Trammell and Simmons rank as HOFers at their respective positions. And Miller is way past due.

41Forever Nov 06 2017 08:00 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Nov 06 2017 08:16 PM

Tigers fans ticked that Whitaker isn't on the ballot. They were hoping he and Trammell -- and potentially Morris -- could go in together. My guess is that no one will get in. But I voted for Miller, Trammell, Simmons, Parker and Murphy. http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports ... 107409000/

d'Kong76 Nov 06 2017 08:13 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Only voted for Miller; if you asked me I would have said he was already in...

Frayed Knot Nov 06 2017 08:28 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Trammell is the only player I'd make an argument for. I believe all the others fall short. So Miller & Trammell

Valadius Nov 06 2017 09:54 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The good news is that with the new voting cycle announced last year, players from this era will be voted on again in only two years' time. So there's a chance that Keith or Lou Whitaker could come up for a vote in December 2019. As for my selections: Miller - No explanation required. It is a travesty he wasn't voted in while he was still alive. Morris - The only players who have received the support of 60% of the voting members of the BBWAA and have not yet been enshrined in the Hall are Gil Hodges, Jack Morris, Trevor Hoffman, and Vladimir Guerrero. Hoffman and Guerrero will get in this year, and we all know Gil deserves to be in the Hall. Simmons - I know that I've raised Simmons' case before in years past. It's not his fault that he played at the same time as Johnny Bench. His numbers are Hall-worthy. Trammell - He was the prototype for the modern hitting shortstop. His candidacy likely suffered because of crowded ballots and unfair comparisons to shortstops from the '90s and '00s.

Frayed Knot Nov 06 2017 10:09 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Valadius wrote: ... and we all know Gil deserves to be in the Hall. I don't know that.

Nymr83 Nov 06 2017 10:25 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Trammell only.

SwitchHitter Nov 07 2017 03:03 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Should have been an option for "none" so that people choosing it could be tallied. Not saying I'm voting that way ... still pondering but ...

Nymr83 Nov 07 2017 05:03 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

SwitchHitter wrote: Should have been an option for "none" so that people choosing it could be tallied. Not saying I'm voting that way ... still pondering but ... thats always the problem with these polls. even with a "none" does a vote for None, A, and B means two people voted (None, A&B) or three (None, A, B)? you need an "i voted" choice that everyone checks off.

Nymr83 Nov 07 2017 05:05 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Miller to me is the exact opposite of a hall of famer - he was BAD for the GAME of baseball, even if he was GOOD for its employees. but if commissioners who ban black players are in "bad for the game" becomes hard to use as a standard

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Nov 07 2017 06:40 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Oh, horseradish. Without Miller and Curt Flood, these guys are essentially mildly-higher-paid field hands, or football players with fewer head injuries. You'd rather the reserve clause? Does the game honestly seem worse off as a sport to you because free agency exists?

batmagadanleadoff Nov 07 2017 08:49 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

And Heinrich Himmler weighs in. And it figures, because Marvin Miller, I can say with indisputable 100% certainty, belongs in the Hall.

HahnSolo Nov 07 2017 01:14 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

I think Miller deserves a plaque, though I'd prefer to see him up against other execs/groundbreakers rather than players. But of this list he's my only absolute YES. I'll have to think about the others.

41Forever Nov 07 2017 01:30 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2017 01:54 PM

batmagadanleadoff wrote: And Heinrich Himmler weighs in. And it figures, because Marvin Miller, I can say with indisputable 100% certainty, belongs in the Hall. You're seriously comparing Nymr83 to the man responsible for the Holocaust because he disagrees with you about a Hall of Fame vote? I don't see how that helps advance the discussion, and I don't think it's good for the forum. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll stop. But I think someone needs to say that this is just wrong.

Frayed Knot Nov 07 2017 01:46 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

HahnSolo wrote: I think Miller deserves a plaque, though I'd prefer to see him up against other execs/groundbreakers rather than players. They keep rewriting the rules about how they handle the non-current ballot to the point where I can't keep track of exactly how things work anymore. One of the reasons Miller isn't in already is due to a lack of votes from HoF players who were part of the process. Many of them seemed unsure at the time about whether it was their place to be passing judgement on anyone other than former players and so failed to realize that their act of kicking the can on Miller was the equivalent of a 'No' vote and that there wasn't a backup plan to pick up their slack. I agree that he deserves recognition but, yeah, you start getting into an apples and oranges thing when it comes to deciding which previously bypassed players he should be ahead of or behind.

sharpie Nov 07 2017 02:01 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Miller and Trammell. I could be convinced on Simmons but no on everyone else.

Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 02:02 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Hard pass on Himmler.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 07 2017 02:04 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

41Forever wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: You're seriously comparing Nymr83 to the man responsible for the Holocaust because he disagrees with you about a Hall of Fame vote? I don't see how that helps advance the discussion, and I don't think it's good for the forum. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll stop. But I think someone needs to say that this is just wrong. He keeps trying to antagonize Namor, disregarding the fact that Namor can't see any of his posts, unless they're quoted by someone else, as has happened here.

41Forever Nov 07 2017 05:08 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 07 2017 08:30 PM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: 41Forever wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: You're seriously comparing (Name redacted) to the man responsible for the Holocaust because he disagrees with you about a Hall of Fame vote? I don't see how that helps advance the discussion, and I don't think it's good for the forum. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll stop. But I think someone needs to say that this is just wrong. He keeps trying to antagonize Namor, disregarding the fact that Namor can't see any of his posts, unless they're quoted by someone else, as has happened here. I'll refrain from taking the bait in the future. Apologies to Namor.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 07 2017 05:35 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

41Forever wrote: 41Forever wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: You're seriously comparing (Name redacted) to the man responsible for the Holocaust because he disagrees with you about a Hall of Fame vote? I don't see how that helps advance the discussion, and I don't think it's good for the forum. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll stop. But I think someone needs to say that this is just wrong. He keeps trying to antagonize Namor, disregarding the fact that Namor can't see any of his posts, unless they're quoted by someone else, as has happened here. I'mm refrain from taking the bait in the future. Apologies to Namor. Where were you when he goes around calling me Batshit? I'd really like to know. Really. Because there's a real possibility that people here are going to think he's a real Nazi. And again with the apologies. Mr. Apology. Issuing bullshit apologies every four posts for things he knows needn't be apologized for. What a fucking bullshit act that is. I apologize too. I apologize for Betsy Devos being a crooked religious know-nothing nutjob. I apologize. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. I apologize.

dinosaur jesus Nov 07 2017 06:06 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Did Tommy John go into making men's underwear? That's what comes up when I search his name. Anyway, I went with him, Miller, Simmons, Tiant, and Trammell. I think as the Hall has gotten bigger, the standards have tightened (with some obvious exceptions). All these players would have been obvious Hall of Famers fifty years ago. But Trammell is overqualified by any standard. (Whitaker too.) Adrian Gonzalez is a better player than Steve Garvey was. John Olerud was a better player than Don Mattingly. Dale Murphy looked like the best player you ever saw, but he was actually only really good. Dave Parker had a hell of a peak and a hell of a long decline. And Jack Morris has my name, so I can't be impartial.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 07 2017 06:09 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Jack Morris' name is "Dinosaur Jesus"?

Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 06:13 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

I think Dale Murphy's failing wasn't that he was worse than he looked, but that he didn't put together those seven years of mediocre production as a supporting player at the end of his career that Winfield, Dawson, or Eddie Murray did. Those years don't help the team that much, but they help the player hit round-figure milestones that decorate his HoF résumé. I'm not looking at the numbers, but I think he was as good in his prime as those players. Also, the eighties were simply played closer to the mean. Nobody was hitting 50 homers, and nobody was striking out 300 batters, but it was a good decade with a lot of good and unique players, some of which were overlooked as their careers were judged in the 90s and later as distorted numbers were being thrown up.

seawolf17 Nov 07 2017 06:21 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

I've said before that if you told me in, say, 1987, that Dale Murphy would not only not make the Hall, but only break 20% of the vote ONCE in fifteen tries -- I'd have said you were crazy. I swing back and forth on Morris, which means I guess by rights I should leave him out, but I'm a Big Hall guy. Miller, Morris, Murphy, Parker, and Trammell for me.

Frayed Knot Nov 07 2017 06:24 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Murphy & Mattingly are in the same boat to me: HoF careers for the front part of their careers but not so much in the back half.

Edgy MD Nov 07 2017 06:26 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

bb-r lists Murphy with 46.2 career WAR and 41.0 7yr-peak WAR. I imagine we'd all be pretty hard-pressed to find more than a handful of non-pitchers with such a concentration in a long career.

d'Kong76 Nov 07 2017 06:29 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Love it that Mattingly is still at zero, you're all a bunch of biased bastages!

dgwphotography Nov 07 2017 06:49 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

d'Kong76 wrote: Only voted for Miller; if you asked me I would have said he was already in... This. He's the only one who is clearly worthy.

dinosaur jesus Nov 07 2017 06:53 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

I saw Dale Murphy once hit a line drive to right field--the opposite field. I assumed it would be caught, or maybe take a couple of hops to the fence, but it carried right over. Way over, still rising. I was stunned, because in those days you just didn't see balls hit that way go for home runs. And now, of course, it's routine. Was that true, and were most power hitters in those days dead pull hitters (and was Murphy incredibly strong)? Or had I been conditioned by watching too many games at Shea?

cooby Nov 07 2017 08:52 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Mattingly

Frayed Knot Nov 08 2017 06:10 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The case for Trammell

Edgy MD Nov 08 2017 06:26 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

I would love to be swayed by the Jack Morris candidacy, but I don't see it. He belongs in the Staying Healthy Hall of Fame, and that's not nothing. He also belongs in the Pitching for Teams with Good Hitters Hall of Fame, but that should reflect a lot more on Trammel and Whitaker than on him. He won 21 games three times, but he never had a season that particularly terrified anybody. And in fact, had a career ERA+ of 105. His calling card is that he won more games than anybody in the 1980s, but that falls apart among the two realities that (1) pitching wins are highly deceptive, and (2) decades are arbitrary frameworks and being a decade leader has a lot to do with when you came of age. You know who the best leftfielder of the 1970s is? George Foster! Who's campaigning to put him in the Hall of Fame? Nobody that I've read. On the back of Jack Morris's calling card is an all-time outstanding performance in a post-season. That would certainly put him over the top in a closer race, but I'm not seeing the rest of his candidacy as all that close. I'd take Jerry Koosman's career over his. I'd take Orel Hershiser's. I think I'd take Ron Guidry's and Dwight Gooden's. None of them had as many wins as him and none are banging down the doors of Cooperstown. But pitching wins are deceptive and he sure doesn't outclass any of them by any other standard.

cooby Nov 08 2017 07:55 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

d'Kong76 wrote: Love it that Mattingly is still at zero, you're all a bunch of biased bastages! BTW I voted for Mattingly before I saw this....Mattingly should have retired earlier, but mostly I voted him because there is a family joke about him, which you had to be there and pretty drunk to get, or I'd tell you. And it was 20+ years ago Edit, just looked up his stats, I'll take that back. He was fairly decent all along

Nymr83 Nov 09 2017 04:32 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

41Forever wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: And Heinrich Himmler weighs in. And it figures, because Marvin Miller, I can say with indisputable 100% certainty, belongs in the Hall. You're seriously comparing Nymr83 to the man responsible for the Holocaust because he disagrees with you about a Hall of Fame vote? I don't see how that helps advance the discussion, and I don't think it's good for the forum. If I'm the only one who feels this way, I'll stop. But I think someone needs to say that this is just wrong. i'm glad i blocked that POS, why is he still allowed to post here?

Nymr83 Nov 09 2017 04:35 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Oh, horseradish. Without Miller and Curt Flood, these guys are essentially mildly-higher-paid field hands, or football players with fewer head injuries. You'd rather the reserve clause? Does the game honestly seem worse off as a sport to you because free agency exists? no, i'd prefer free agency for amateurs - but that doesnt mean it makes the game better - the game is worse off having missed games over labor issues that Miller was part of. he doesnt belong in and neither do the commissioners who let lockouts happen.

Edgy MD Nov 09 2017 05:13 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

But those players rights were won back from oblivion with those missed games. And the game has flourished because of it. Sixty-nine-ish games missed between 1981 and 1972 seems a small price to pay. Hell, I consider it an act of solidarity, and an honor to have missed them. And I HATED the summer of 1981. I was miserable. Well, except for the release of Hard Promises. Every player's career includes strikeouts. That is the price of the home runs. [youtube]UzIG1KYBTDs[/youtube] [youtube]ScmbyqZ9PxY[/youtube]

Mets Willets Point Dec 11 2017 12:51 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Jack Morris and Alan Trammel make the cut. I support this, and my Tiger-fan wife is pleased. I wouldn't have minded if some of the other candidates were inducted, and Marvin Miller's continued exclusion is the biggest slight.

41Forever Dec 11 2017 01:31 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Lots of happy people in Detroit, especially for Trammell, who is beloved!

Frayed Knot Dec 11 2017 01:35 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Morris has certainly been the favorite over the years among those all-purpose type sports writers/yakkers who also occasionally dabble in baseball coverage (He was a winner!!!") so I suspect they'll be trumpeting his induction while scratching their heads over Trammel's. While on the other side of the fence, I suspect the hardcore baseball guys, particularly the more Sabermetrically inclined, will be more given to touting the Trammel vote.

Edgy MD Dec 11 2017 01:38 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The highest ERA in the Hall of Fame belongs to Red Ruffing at 3.80. Morris will advance that record a full tenth of a run to 3.90. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. He was a good pitcher. But his real successes, apart from a great day in the World Series (which certainly matters), seems to me to be staying healthy and playing on a team with a stack of hitters like Alan Trammell. Trammell, though, is a fine choice who should've made it through the front door.

Nymr83 Dec 11 2017 02:05 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Do compilers always make it through the veterans committee? Tony Perez didnt deserve it either. The biggest problem I have with Morris is that a dozen better pitchers arent in. He DRASTICALLY lowers the bar.

Edgy MD Dec 11 2017 02:47 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Know who was better than Morris? Jerry Koosman was better than Morris. Pretty easily, to my thinking. Morris' main calling card is "Most wins in the eighties." It always has been. He had the most wins in the eighties! How do you keep him out? But both the rewarding of pitcher's wins and the framing stats in decade-long frames are pretty arbitrary and unscientific constructs. George Foster was the best leftfielder of the seventies. Nobody's backing the truck up for him. Wait ... I said that earlier in this thread, didn't I? If so, never mind.

Nymr83 Dec 11 2017 03:04 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

List of some pitchers not in the HOF that I'd put in the HOF ahead of Morris: Clemens, Schilling, Mussina, Gooden, Hershiser, Finley, Cone, Oswalt, Kevin Brown, Saberhagen, Santana, Holliday, Roberto Hernandez, Pettite* this is just off-the-top-of-my-head, so there is a strong recency bias. *gag

Edgy MD Dec 11 2017 03:09 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Wait, Roberto Hernandez?

Nymr83 Dec 11 2017 03:16 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Edgy MD wrote: Wait, Roberto Hernandez? yeah i looked up the numbers and i am definitely confusing him with someone else, i'll withdraw that one.

Frayed Knot Dec 11 2017 03:37 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The highest ERA in the Hall of Fame belongs to Red Ruffing at 3.80. Morris will advance that record a full tenth of a run to 3.90. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. But he only had an ERA that high because -- wait for it -- he pitched to the score. Or so his supporters claim. And tonight during an interview with Morris himself (he's conveniently shown up at the winter meetings) even he said that if he knew back when he was playing that there'd be as much emphasis on ERA then he could have done something about it. I don't even know how to parse either of those claims. And I don't mean to sound insulted that he's in the Hall or anything as he was a very good pitcher over a lengthy career. I just think he falls short in the final analysis and find the arguments otherwise to be lacking and filled with empty sounding platitudes which basically come down to: he's better than his record/numbers show because I say he was and the fact that I can't prove it is proof of how good he was. Or something like that.

Nymr83 Dec 11 2017 05:00 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Frayed Knot wrote: But he only had an ERA that high because -- wait for it -- he pitched to the score. Or so his supporters claim. The first time I remember hearing that argument was (of course) from a Yankees fan. He was talking about David Wells. David Wells vs. Jack Morris career value is a good argument. that alone tells me Morris shouldn't be anywhere near a HOF conversation

Edgy MD Dec 11 2017 05:14 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

And I don't mean to sound insulted that he's in the Hall or anything as he was a very good pitcher over a lengthy career. I just think he falls short in the final analysis and find the arguments otherwise to be lacking and filled with empty sounding platitudes which basically come down to: he's better than his record/numbers show because I say he was and the fact that I can't prove it is proof of how good he was. Or something like that. I actually read a sportswriter from Baltimore a year or two back, supporting Morris' candidacy, writing "You had to be there." As if he was the only one paying attention to baseball in the eighties. If there's anything sillier than crediting a guy with pitching to the score when it's the 1980s Tigers doing the scoring, it's crediting a guy for pitching to the score when it's it's the 1930s Yankees. Way to go, playing for that team, Red Ruffing. A Hall of Fame move, there.

seawolf17 Dec 11 2017 02:40 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Nymr83 wrote: Cone I've been reading Bill James' recent book, and he makes a compelling case for Cone getting more consideration.

MFS62 Dec 11 2017 02:59 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The "he pitched to the score" argument for Morris is BS. It means he didn't feel he had to do his best all the time. What kind of message is that? Later

41Forever Dec 11 2017 03:03 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Morris certainly had a rep as a gruff guy. In 1991, when he left for the Twins, a photographer and I had an assignment to write a feature about all the things that went into preparing Tiger Stadium for Opening Day. We had the run of the place, and it was really, really cool. But one thing that jumped out at me was a note taped to the wall of the trainers room. Morris wrote a heartfelt, hand-written note to the trainers thanking them for all they had done for him. It was really nice. It seemed out of character.

Valadius Dec 11 2017 03:15 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

A good day for the Hall, but Miller's exclusion remains a travesty. Simmons should also be in. Hopefully the next time this era is considered, Whitaker is on the ballot.

HahnSolo Dec 11 2017 03:53 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: The highest ERA in the Hall of Fame belongs to Red Ruffing at 3.80. Morris will advance that record a full tenth of a run to 3.90. I'm a little uncomfortable with that. But he only had an ERA that high because -- wait for it -- he pitched to the score. Or so his supporters claim. And tonight during an interview with Morris himself (he's conveniently shown up at the winter meetings) even he said that if he knew back when he was playing that there'd be as much emphasis on ERA then he could have done something about it. I don't even know how to parse either of those claims. I lived through Jack Morris's career in its entirety. He can't possibly be implying that ERA wasn't emphasized when judging pitchers back during his day, can he?

G-Fafif Dec 11 2017 05:36 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Never really thought of Jack Morris as HOF caliber (Seaver, Gibson, Carlton level) during his career, with the caveat that I rarely gave much thought to Jack Morris while he was pitching every one of his innings in the American League. Several years ago, MLB Network did its series of Greatest Games of the previous fifty years, with the Twins-Braves 1-0 duel placing second. The guests were Morris and John Smoltz. I came away from listening to him thinking if he gets in, he'll give a helluva speech. For that alone I was cool with him going in (in the sense that his status wasn't going to bother me one way or the other). I was reminded this morning of an unpleasant incident from his playing days: When Detroit Free Press sports writer Jennifer Frey tried to get a comment from Tigers pitcher Jack Morris in the Tigers' clubhouse earlier this summer, he said, "I don't talk to people when I'm naked, especially women, unless they're on top of me or I'm on top of them." It was an odd thing to say, since Morris was wearing long underwear at the time. There are countless rabbit holes one can go down that will leave you discouraged about humanity in general and Hall of Famers specifically, and one would like to believe that this boorishness not to mention unprofessionalism from 27 years ago would be something an older, perhaps more evolved person might regret or at least wouldn't do again. But now when I see Morris take the podium, no matter how eloquent or emotional he is, I'm gonna think, "man, what an unnecessary dick he was to the late Jennifer Frey."

dgwphotography Dec 11 2017 06:49 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The Hall has been cheapened even more. Somewhat with the inclusion of Morris, even more with the continued exclusion of Marvin Miller.

Frayed Knot Dec 11 2017 08:14 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

HahnSolo wrote: [Morris] can't possibly be implying that ERA wasn't emphasized when judging pitchers back during his day, can he? That's pretty much what it sounded like he was saying, like he was going with the MLB version of the old Junior High School complaint of 'nobody told us this was going to be on the test'. Between that and the writers claiming that he could have pitched better but situationally chose not to, there are more than a few credibility tendons being strained here.

Nymr83 Dec 11 2017 08:41 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

You guys have an inexplicable boner for a union rep. The hall is not "cheapened" in any way, shape, or form by the non-inclusion of someone who never swung the bat or threw the ball. The hall is arguably cheapened by the exclusions of Joe Jackson, Pete Rose, and the collective assumed steroid users. When I one day take my kid(s) to the hall, it may feel like something is missing when I don't see McGwire's name up there and wont be abke to tell them about the summer he was chasing the homerun record and I watched Turk Wendell come in and strike him out...twice in one day as part of a doubleheader. I wont give two shits about Miller not being there and I'd say the same about any other non-player.

Edgy MD Dec 11 2017 08:47 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Marvin Miller wasn't a union rep. Josh Thole was a union rep. Rusty Staub was a union rep. Marvin Miller was the executive director. He was executive director of the most successful union in America during it's most successful era. And the game has reaped untold benefits because of it.

Frayed Knot Dec 11 2017 09:09 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Nymr83 wrote: The hall is not "cheapened" in any way, shape, or form by the non-inclusion of someone who never swung the bat or threw the ball. There are numerous owners, executive, commissioners, etc. in the HoF and Miller's impact on the game is as big or bigger than many of them. And if the HoF, to you, is players and nothing else then feel free to ignore whatever tribute is given to Miller as I'm sure you do now towards already inducted non-players.

Valadius Dec 11 2017 10:55 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

If Bowie Kuhn and Bud Selig are Hall of Famers, then Marvin Miller should be too. You can't tell the story of baseball without him. He was a consequential figure.

Nymr83 Dec 11 2017 11:55 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Valadius wrote: If Bowie Kuhn and Bud Selig are Hall of Famers, then Marvin Miller should be too. You can't tell the story of baseball without him. He was a consequential figure. Neither belong in the hall in my opinion.

Chad Ochoseis Dec 12 2017 12:16 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

MFS62 wrote: The "he pitched to the score" argument for Morris is BS. It means he didn't feel he had to do his best all the time. What kind of message is that? Later Dick Young made the argument for Catfish Hunter based on "pitching to the score", too. It seems to work well for the "winners" who were lucky enough to be on good clubs. That being said, pitching to the score is certainly a thing. With a big lead, the strategy is generally to throw fastballs for strikes, make 'em hit the ball, and let BABIP work it's magic. You'll give up more runs on average, but you'll have less of a chance of a big inning than you would if you throw breaking stuff or try to hit corners and walk more batters. Accepting a higher mean in exchange for a lower standard deviation. It's a common practice in all sorts of transactions and a pretty standard concept in risk theory. What's never been established is that any one pitcher was better at doing it than any other pitcher. Without looking at stats, my guess is that Morris wasn't even the best pitcher on the ballot; Luis Tiant was. While I'm here, I'll put forward my opinion that the whole idea of a "modern era" ballot is ridiculous. There was a Veterans' Committee because there were players who never got a look because they were active before there was a HoF. There was a Negro Leagues committee because Negro Leaguers had gotten the shaft from society in general and the HoF in particular. I can see a case for a continuing Veterans' Committee because views of players can change with some historical perspective and new analytical methods. But taking a second look at players who just had 10-15 chances and didn't get in cheapens both the BBWAA ballot and the HoF itself. I was in favor of Trammell when he was on the BBWAA ballot. But he was definitely a borderline call. I never thought it was some great injustice that he was omitted. Marvin Miller definitely belongs. But I think he's still eligible to get in through the front door on the BBWAA ballot, no? There's no limit on ballot time for executives, I don't think. All in all, I'm a small Hall guy. I think HoFers should be the guys who make you say, "Holy crap, I'm glad I got to see him play." Real rarities. If a player doesn't get in after 15 ballots, I wouldn't open another door for him right away. OE - Tiant was better than Morris, and it isn't even close.

Nymr83 Dec 12 2017 12:22 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

I agree with Chad, i would rather not see guys who just sroppes off the ballot looked at again so soon. Perspectives do change, so I wouldn't say never either.

41Forever Dec 12 2017 04:58 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

I donn’t mind having some checks and balances built into the system. I’m not comfortable having the BBWAA having the only say in who gets in. I also think the writers are limited to voting on players. Miller wouldn’t appear on a ballot sent to the BBWAA. I’d say he had as much of a transformational impact on the game as anyone in the last 50 years.

Valadius Dec 12 2017 05:55 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The writers only ever vote on players. Managers, umpires, and executives are only ever voted in by whatever we're now calling the Veterans' Committee.

MFS62 Dec 13 2017 02:50 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

The case for Trammell This brings a little more flesh to the Trammell was one slot better than Jeter ranking in that article:(cut and pasted from various posts on a CBS message board) I don't understand all the intricacies of the numbers, but it seems logical. Jay Jaffe's JAWS player ranking system weights peak and career rWAR to try and measure a player's Hall of Fame worthiness. Straight career rWAR would suggest that guys like Tommy John and Frank Tanana were way ahead of Sandy Koufax, while peak would say the reverse. So I guess peak is a better indicator. But peak would say that Warren Spahn and Curt Schilling were roughly equals, while career has Spahn with a significant edge. JAWS averages the two together to perhaps give you something that values both a high peak as well as good career value. Trammell fares rather well. He is ranked just barely ahead of Derek Jeter for the 11th best SS of all time [10th if you call A-Rod a 3B I guess :). AVG HoF SS: 43 peak wins and 67 career Alan Trammell: 45 peak wins and 70 career So, if folks are saying that Jeter deserves to be in, so does Trammell. Later

Nymr83 Dec 13 2017 04:03 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

Will Jeter's blowing up of the Marlins count against him on the ballot?

Edgy MD Dec 13 2017 04:29 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

It certainly could. I have my doubts, but if it costs him even one or two votes, it could cost him the opportunity to overtake Ken Griffey, Jr. in the highest-percentage category. And that's a victory for everybody.

Gwreck Dec 13 2017 04:41 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame, 2018: Modern Era Ballot

It certainly should. Fixed that.