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Carlos Beltran Retires

Ceetar Nov 13 2017 04:37 PM

Goes out as a champion. 5 year waiting period begins now. [youtube:3kvrcr70]UKNUQwy0OXI[/youtube:3kvrcr70]

seawolf17 Nov 13 2017 06:16 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Unquestionably a HOFer. And an all-time Met.

d'Kong76 Nov 13 2017 06:22 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Hopefully there will be no dragging of the feet to get him into Mets HOF.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 06:26 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

[youtube:21wn3pj9]m5T_WGR0q8I[/youtube:21wn3pj9]

Nymr83 Nov 13 2017 06:29 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

He goes in as a MET or we storm Cooperstown, right?

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 06:33 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Maybe his request will be for a PR on his hat.

d'Kong76 Nov 13 2017 06:39 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Memories of Carlos Beltran - archives.thecranepool.net

Ceetar Nov 13 2017 06:41 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Nymr83 wrote: He goes in as a MET or we storm Cooperstown, right? feel like there's a good chance it's just blank.

dgwphotography Nov 13 2017 06:48 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Damn, he was so good, and as I said earlier, the best centerfielder the Mets ever had... **but** ...sigh... Not a hall of famer... Looking at his career on Baseball reference, he has no black ink (well, one, for games played) for all of his defensive prowess, only 3 gold gloves. As much as I would love to see him go into the Hall as a Met, I think he's among the very very good, who doesn't go in.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 06:58 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

One of the most efficient basestealers of all time. One of the most successful, if not the most successful, post season player of all time.

G-Fafif Nov 13 2017 06:59 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

I can see Beltran as a capless throwback. Mel Ott played an entire HOF career as a New York Giant, yet went capless, and at his peak, Beltran had better hair.

dgwphotography Nov 13 2017 07:04 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Edgy MD wrote: One of the most efficient basestealers of all time. One of the most successful, if not the most successful, post season player of all time. Really, We're going to elect him based on base-stealing efficiency? A career .279/.350/.486/.837 with no black numbers is not hall of fame worthy. As much as I loved him as a player, he's the definition of a compiler.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 07:07 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

dgwphotography wrote: Really, We're going to elect him based on base-stealing efficiency? No, it's part of the accumulation. We're going to elect him, if we elect him, based on that, and on his historically outstanding post-season performances, on top of everything else, including what you noted.

Ceetar Nov 13 2017 07:12 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

looking for black numbers is merely cherry picking stats. He was great. He was the best center fielder of the decade. fWAR by CF 2001-2010 Beltran 50.3 Jones 39.8 Edmonds 38.6 Cameron 36.5 Hunter 31.6 Damon 31.3 switch it over to OF? Bonds 54.3 Suzuki 53.1 Beltran 50.3 Berkman 48.8 C Jones 46.9 He was a legit power/speed 5-tool player that also switch hit. He was a presence in the postseason, he was a impeccable clubhouse guy.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 07:19 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Baseball-Reference ranks him eighth all-time in WAR among centerfielders, and that's (obviously) not including his post-season record. They have him ninth in JAWS. All the guys ahead of him are in the Hall of Fame. Hall of Famers behind him include Richie Ashburn, Andre Dawson, Slidin' Billy Hamilton, Larry Doby, Kirby Puckett, Max Carey, Earl Averill, Earle Combs, Edd Roush*, Hack Wilson, and Hugh Duffy. Fangraphs has him eighth in fWAR, behind Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Ken Griffey, Jr., and Al Simmons * Also joins Gregg Jefferies and Donn Clendennon in the Non-Traditional-Double-Consonant-at-the-End-of-My-First-Name Hall of Fame

d'Kong76 Nov 13 2017 07:20 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Another good one: Beltran to Giants - archives.thecranepool.net

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 07:27 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

If we still want Brown, I hear the Atlantic League's Southern Maryland Blue Crabs are willing to talk.

Valadius Nov 13 2017 07:39 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

I imagine if he goes in with a team cap, it's Royals vs. Mets for that honor. Can somebody pull the numbers on that?

Ceetar Nov 13 2017 07:46 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Valadius wrote: I imagine if he goes in with a team cap, it's Royals vs. Mets for that honor. Can somebody pull the numbers on that? [url]https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrca01.shtml He has 1 more AB, but 120 fewer PA as a Royal, but his numbers with the Mets are better plus postseason. Depends if you want to give credit for the minors/drafting/development i guess, but Mets is odds-on favorite. (well, I think Maddux-style blank is probably the front runner)

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 13 2017 08:15 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

LOlling at "I'm a chilled guy" from the Beltran trade thread.

metsmarathon Nov 13 2017 08:32 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

in 1999, the outfield gold gloves were awarded to bernie williams (-1.1 dWAR), ken griffey jr (0.9 dWAR) and shawn green (0.0 dWAR). carlos beltran, a rookie, had a dWAR of 2.2 in 2001, the outfield gold gloves were awarded to torii hunter (2.4 dWAR), mike cameron (1.4 dWAR), and ichiro suzuki (0.9 dWAR). carlos beltran had a dWAR of 0.9. defensive stats are according to baseball reference, and may not be fully accurate. though, neither are the gold glove awards in determining a players' value.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 13 2017 08:35 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

If he does get in to the Hall of Fame, I hope that his plaque mentions "Vanis Takee"

Centerfield Nov 13 2017 08:38 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 13 2017 08:39 PM

dgwphotography wrote: only 3 gold gloves. I think this is largely a result of his ability to make incredibly tough catches look easy. That Beltran has three and dickhead Edmonds has eight is all you need to know about Gold Gloves. In the 2013 ALCS Torii Hunter went over the wall but missed David Ortiz grand slam (this is the one with the celebrating cop). Even in failure, everyone marveled at the hustle of a Gold Glover like Torii Hunter. It was all over the news. A week later, in Game 1 of the World Series, in the same exact spot, Beltran went back, caught the ball in stride, and Ortiz was robbed of his Grand Slam, bounced off the wall, and then threw back in to hold the runner. http://twitpic.com/diie98 No one remembers this because he made it look too damn easy. He hurt his ribs on that play, but didn't write around in pain. He came in, tried to play through, but had to be taken out to get x-rays. They were negative, and like a boss, he was back in the lineup for game 2.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 08:39 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Man, you know what defensive stats tell me? Andruw Jones laps the field in terms of defensive productivity in centerfield. And almost all of that came before he turned 26. I get the idea that, if he makes the Hall of Fame, it's going to be a long and painful process, but if you trust the available defensive numbers at all, they suggest he's a pretty easy pick.

Ceetar Nov 13 2017 09:06 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

[youtube:1diu5zz9]dg3mMGHnocc[/youtube:1diu5zz9]

Centerfield Nov 13 2017 09:18 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

That's it. Largely forgotten. But Nori Aoki stumbling and sliding and taking the wrong route on a ball makes Sportscenter every time.

metsmarathon Nov 13 2017 09:39 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

he broke mike camerons face with his own face. cameron's season was over. beltran missed 4 days.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Nov 13 2017 09:40 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

I'll admit to being one of those guys who perhaps "underappreciated" Beltran. It wasn't about him; I just in a matter of taste would prefer to fall in love with our own guys and I think, again, not necessarily his fault, but the team and he sort of failed one another after 2008. That said I'd support his Hall of Famousness and think he was a good guy and a great player.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 13 2017 09:43 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

His 2006 season was probably as exciting a Mets season that we've had since Doc Gooden in 1985. (I don't mean to dis Mike Piazza. It's just that the Piazza years came between the end of WWOR as a super station and my discovery of MLB Extra Innings, so I didn't see as much of the Mets during that time period.)

Centerfield Nov 13 2017 09:55 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Got hurt in 2009 and wanted to have surgery. The Mets recommended rehab instead. Beltran complied. The rehab not working, Beltran sought surgery again in January of 2010. The Mets were still not on board. Depending on what version you believe, Beltran basically told the Mets to go fuck themselves and got the work done. Got healthy, and went on to play 7 more years. He was a huge free agent signing. A superstar, in his prime, signed to a mega deal. Not only did he provide value, he netted us a top pitching prospect on his way out. An important history lesson for those who think that the Mets injury issues might suddenly disappear in 2018.

dgwphotography Nov 13 2017 10:30 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Centerfield wrote: An important history lesson for those who think that the Mets injury issues might suddenly disappear in 2018. The Mets injury issues won't disappear until they are no longer owned by a Wilpon.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2017 11:22 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

I don't think that necessarily follows. Nor do I think the Mets injury issues will ever disappear. Though it doesn't take long to connect Jeff Wilpon to Mike Barwis.

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2017 11:25 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

dgwphotography wrote: The Mets injury issues won't disappear until they are no longer owned by a Wilpon. That's absurd.

cooby Nov 14 2017 12:37 AM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

I think of him as a Royal even now. Still remember the killer Bs.

cooby Nov 14 2017 12:39 AM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Or am I thinking of Killer Carloses?

dgwphotography Nov 14 2017 02:29 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Frayed Knot wrote: dgwphotography wrote: The Mets injury issues won't disappear until they are no longer owned by a Wilpon. That's absurd. Really? Am I the only one who remembers the stories of Jeffrey having a hand in the medical decisions?

Ceetar Nov 14 2017 02:33 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

All you have to do is look at other teams to realize that any effect the Wilpons have on these things is minimal at best.

Centerfield Nov 14 2017 02:41 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

If there's any truth to this article, it means the Mets injury issues go beyond just bad luck. http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1940 ... abled-list It's based upon anonymous sources, which of course, begs scrutiny, but the author cites multiple sources. The Yankees are subject to the same NY media. It's only the Mets that have this reputation. So who's in charge? Multiple sources said the lack of a single medical point person allows for greater involvement by COO Jeff Wilpon in areas where he's lacking in professional expertise. They describe Wilpon as a micromanager who creates an environment in which the Mets simply whipsaw from one crisis to the next and are too often governed by how their decisions will be publicly perceived. "Jeff gets in the middle of everything that's going on, and he ends up doing more damage,'' said a person who has been involved in the Mets' internal operation. "He meddles. I can't come up with a more appropriate term.'' While Alderson concedes the Mets have room for improvement, he disputes the notion that Altchek isn't at the ballpark enough, or Wilpon is too involved in the medical and strength and conditioning operation, or Barwis' training methods have been less than effective.

Ceetar Nov 14 2017 02:51 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

The Yankees SHOULD have the same reputation, it's that the media has decided the Mets do and 'dig' for it. (I guarantee someone asked about Jeff's involvement versus no one asking about Hal's)

Ceetar Nov 14 2017 03:06 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

it took me only a few minutes to find an example of a Yankees injury that the Mets would've gotten killed for. May second: The Yankees announced Tuesday afternoon they have placed the slumping first baseman on the 10-day DL with a right ankle bruise. Bird initially hurt his ankle late in spring training Oh, you hurt your ankle? meh, play through it for a month. Oh wait you suck, I guess it's the ankle, let's get you some rest. Three weeks later: He's supposed to leave Sunday for Tampa," Girardi said, along with quipping about the slugger "flying" around the bases when asked about his running program early on Friday at Yankee Stadium. Oh, great. So he's fine now. just needed some rest right? Mid July: has ankle surgery. But it's fine, things happen right? not like the team would publicly blame the player right? 'The Daily News' Bill Madden reported earlier this month that team brass had become "exasperated" with Bird's inability to stay healthy and even was questioning his desire to return.' oh.

Centerfield Nov 14 2017 04:01 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Ceetar, I don't know that there is a conspiracy to paint the Wilpons in a bad light while protecting the Yankees. I guess I can't say for certain, but I see no motivation for anything like this. In fact, I feel like the NY press isn't critical enough of the Wilpons. But maybe that's just me. Look, at the end of the day, there is a report, citing multiple sources, saying that this thing is real. If you choose not to believe it, that's fine. But I don't see how you can say it's "absurd" if dgw chooses to give it weight. It's not like the report is based upon one anonymous source. And to be honest, this account is pretty much in line with everything that has ever been written about Jeff Wilpon. So I see why someone can find it credible. Do you have evidence to refute that? Do you have instances where Crasnick was found to be not credible? Unless you have something like this, I don't think you can say it's absurd that someone believes it.

Ceetar Nov 14 2017 04:15 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

I didn't say it was absurd (and neither did Frayed Knot, he was responding to the idea that the injuries won't disappear until..) But the Mets front office is huge. There are pretty much people you could get to 'confirm' roughly any opinion you have. This is why there is always someone willing to kick someone who's on his way out the door. I'm not saying it's a conspiracy, I'm saying, especially in a dead period right now between the end of the season and actual trades/signings, there's a lot of sports writers just filling space. The Mets have this reputation because they have this reputation because we keep writing about this reputation because they have this reputation because it's easy to write about this.. See, there are always. ALWAYS going to be disagreements on which players the mets should or shouldn't sign, what they should or shouldn't do. There will ALWAYS be expensive players or 'all in' scenarios that the Mets reject on no more than difference of opinion or separate valuations that we aren't privy too. Medical decisions are the same way. There are always difference courses of action, different protocols, different workout regimes. It will ALWAYS be possible for a disagreeing writer to paint that as them being cheap or disfunctional because you happen to dislike Barwis or Jeff snubbed you once or Ray Ramirez looked like your ex's new boyfriend. Or you had a hamstring strain once and your doctor said THIS so why are the Mets disagreeing with that treatment? they must be full of it. I'm not saying Jeff doesn't "meddle" but I bet more than half of the employees in the world would describe their boss, or their bosses boss, as meddling. Listen to any water cooler talk in any office and there will be grumblings about the way upper management runs things and what they prioritize. Now take one or two of those quotes, and apply it vaguely to the whole direction of the organization, and tell me it means something? nah. Maybe Jeff (definitely Jeff?) shoved Barwis at the Mets because of a personal relationship/history. But it's not like he picked a cobbler and told him you're in charge of the uniforms or picked a pre-med student he went to school with who switched fields. He's an actual trainer who's qualified for the job. If I asked YOU to pick someone for a job you'd be more likely to hire someone you're familiar with too. In summary, I think Jeff probably meddles too much, is not a very good owner (but it's so hard to evaluate this stuff) and pays too much attention to expected public/media response. But I think these things are extremely minor and are no way hamstringing the Mets in any meaningful way.

Centerfield Nov 14 2017 04:29 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Forgive me. I read quickly and thought that you wrote the comment. dgw didn't say injuries would stop when the Wilpons were no longer owners. He said injury issues. And he was referring to the issues I raised in my post, which was the mishandling of the Beltran injury. There is a report out there that states that these issues, mishandling, miscommunication, etc., is directly linked to Jeff Wilpon. I maintain that it's not absurd to believe that report. Especially since it's in line with everything ever written about Jeff Wilpon. Sure, everyone grumbles about their boss. But there are few public figures that are as unequivocally despised as Jeff Wilpon. Every report is the same. I don't remember seeing a single article that says "All these reports are wrong, Jeff is actually a very good guy." In summary, I think Jeff probably meddles too much, is not a very good owner (but it's so hard to evaluate this stuff) and pays too much attention to expected public/media response. But I think these things are extremely minor and are no way hamstringing the Mets in any meaningful way. This is dead wrong. He is a terrible owner. He's so shitty at running his business that he can't fund a big market payroll despite playing in NY. Nothing is hamstringing the Mets more than the Wilpons. Not injuries, not poor scouting, not bad luck. All of these things hurt, but the Wilpons hamstring them the most.

Ceetar Nov 14 2017 04:37 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

I've said this before but I'm pretty sure you're deluding yourself if you think [random owner inserted] would suddenly just start pouring their own money into the Mets above and behind what the Mets themselves generate.

Centerfield Nov 14 2017 04:58 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Ceetar wrote: I've said this before but I'm pretty sure you're deluding yourself if you think [random owner inserted] would suddenly just start pouring their own money into the Mets above and behind what the Mets themselves generate. Nothing like that needs to be done to get the Mets back to a top tier payroll. All you have to do is find owners that will not intentionally divert baseball revenue for their own purposes. It's undisputed that the Wilpons, to offset the losses from Madoff, took out loans that were hundreds of millions of dollars against SNY and the Mets. SNY and the Mets, have been saddled with those payments, while the principal went into the owners pockets. (Or more accurately, into the pockets of the owners' creditors.) Those loans (ranging from $450 to $700 million depending on reports) have saddled the Mets and SNY with incredible overhead. Overhead that has nothing to do with baseball. New owners wouldn't have to bankroll the Mets to get them competitive in payroll. All they would have to do, is not pilfer them for cash.

Ceetar Nov 14 2017 05:04 PM Re: Carlos Beltran Retires

Again, we don't know their finances and it depends on how you define 'Mets' revenue. Does that include SNY? naming rights? revenue from renting out Citi Field to Beyonce? We know they took various loans. We don't know if they're specifically using 'Mets' revenue to repay those loans. What we know is that the Wilpons have additional expenses that are loans from these things. (this isn't exactly unique to them) Those expenses also don't go away in a sale. It'd be part of the equation. And a new owner would've just spent a billion dollars and would be unlikely to want to operate something at a loss. they might even want to make a little profit to start recouping some of that.